July 20, 2026 • 46 mins
Fiona Guthrie spent decades reporting stories as a broadcast journalist and later served as Director of Story at the Ford Foundation. Now, she’s using storytelling to help free people who are wrongfully imprisoned, including those on death row.
In this episode, Eric talks with Fiona about the extraordinary career that led her to the Innocence Project, one of the country’s leading advocates for the wrongfully convicted.
They discuss why it’s essential for an organization to stay relentlessly focused on its mission while helping build a broader movement for justice—and how storytelling can shape every aspect of a communications strategy. Fiona also reflects on her early days in radio and television in the UK and Australia, as well as the harrowing days covering 9/11. It’s a great conversation with an exceptional communications professional.
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(00:00):
Welcome to Let's Hear It.
Let's Hear It is a podcast for and aboutthe field of foundation and nonprofit
communications, produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No
relation.
Well said, Eric.
And I'm Kirk.
And I'm Eric.
Let's Hear It is sponsored by thePrebys Foundation, a foundation
creating an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.
(00:22):
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(00:43):
Let's get on to the show
It's hot
here, which means it's perfect there,and that really makes me angry.
I think it got… It was 72 today,and I was a little, slightly warm.
Right.
You were a little insulted andput out that it was 72 degrees.
I was slightly warm.
Yeah.
But, you know, I'll take it.
The entire country and Northern Europeis suffering under a heat dome right now.
I'm telling you, everyone,you can come to San Francisco.
(01:05):
It's very cool.
It's true.
It gets colder and colder.
So we've got a good one today, andthis is so interesting and important
what you're about to do here, and thenwe'll come back and talk about it.
But, you know, it strikes me, everytopic we have on Let's Hear It affects
us all, but I feel like this is maybe themost salient one because this affects us
(01:26):
all, and yet how many of us wake up inthe morning and think, "You know what?
Someday my innocence mightbe questioned wrongly"?
How many of us think that?
So talk about this interviewbecause it's, it's so good.
It's so good.
I interviewed Fiona Guthrie, whoruns communications for the Innocence
Project, with which many people willunderstand is the organization that
(01:48):
uses DNA technology to help peoplewho have been incorrectly accused of
a crime and incarcerated be freed.
And so this is one of those thingsthat speaks to the sense of justice and
fairness in this country and how it'spossible that y- n- neither you or I
will ever do time for a crime we didn'tcommit, but there are a lot of folks
(02:11):
out there who are, and some folks whoare on death row who may be executed
for a crime that they did not commit,which the Innocence Project can prove.
But what they have done, I think,is open up the minds of people about
how the so-called criminal justicesystem operates in this country.
And so I spoke to Fiona about herwork, about how she thinks about
stories and telling stories thatmove people, and about her great
(02:35):
career in Australia and in the UK,and she's just a delightful person.
And this is a great illustration of j-the audacity of giving something a shot.
You know, you start from a small project.
It's something that'sfreed over 250 people.
It's passed t- over 200 laws.
It's changed practices.
It's created a movement34 years in the making.
So Fiona Guthrie, thankyou so much for joining us.
(02:56):
So this is Fiona Guthrie, the chiefcommunications officer for the
Innocence Project on Let's Hear It.
Let's listen, and we'll come back.
Story is a funny word.
A news story sets a set of factsarranged to help you understand
what happened, let's say.
A personal story is how someone makessense of what happened to those facts.
A foundation story can be about howan institution explains why it exists,
(03:20):
maybe what it's doing with its money.
They're all stories, andthey have multiple uses.
My guest today, Fiona Guthrie,has told all of these stories.
Fiona spent years producing newsat the BBC and at ABC in Australia,
where a story was somethingyou filed for a deadline, say.
Later, she spent over a decade atthe Ford Foundation, where a story
(03:42):
was something you used to maybe tryto shift social policies or norms.
And now she runs communications forthe Innocence Project, where a story is
often the only thing standing betweenan innocent person and the rest of their
life behind bars Fiona has been usingstories to change lives for decades, and
I cannot wait to talk to her about howshe does it and what she has learned.
(04:04):
Fiona Guthrie, thank you so muchfor joining us on Let's Hear It.
Oh my God, it's such a pleasure, Eric,and that was such a great introduction.
Ooh.
I'm so glad.
I hope you agree with at leasthalf of the things I just said.
At, at least half- … of the thingsthat you said, but I may employ you as
my personal PR person at this point.
I'm available for that, and, and, youknow, weddings and bar mitzvahs as well.
(04:28):
Love it.
So Fiona, thanks so much.
I've been hoping to have you onthe show for such a long time.
I've known you for many years-Mm-hmm … and I've just admired
your work for such a long time.
This is, this is gonna be terrific.
I, I wanna go back, because I know youstarted in broadcasting, and you went back
and forth between the UK and Australia.
I know you worked in radio,you worked in television.
Tell me about those early days.
Oh, my goodness.
(04:49):
Those early days, well, Ireally fell into public radio.
My mother had been a nurse and astay-at-home mom, and when we moved
to Broken Hill, which is a miningtown in the middle of Australia-
Ooh … and someone asked her, becauseshe had a great voice and personality,
if she wanted to do some radio, youknow, become involved in interviewing
(05:14):
and the like, and she said yes.
And so she became this kind of personalitywho went around with her trusty tape
recorder, which was a kind of cassetteplayer, or the Nagra recorder, which is a
big deal- Ah, yes … in the, in the day.
And she became the sort ofradio personality for the
Country Hour in Australia.
(05:35):
And so I guess it was a bit of agenerational transfer of talent, because
when I went to university, I was finishingup my BA in history and politics, not sure
what I was about to do, and someone said,"Oh, come and do a radio show with me."
You know, it's student radio.
There was a local public broadcastingstation on the campus at which I was
(05:58):
studying, and so I started doing radioshows and doing radio music shows.
And then I did classical music shows,and then I did talk radio, which I
loved, that kind of magazine format.
You know, you'd have guests on,the local actors or whoever was the
talent passing through or the like.
(06:19):
And in fact, the local talent passingthrough, I was asked to go and interview
a British brass ensemble- And I wentout to do it and interviewed this rather
charming British gentleman who said, "Isthere any jazz happening in this town?"
And I went, "There is tonight." And hesaid, "Well, do you wanna come with me?"
(06:41):
And I said, "No, because I'm goingto Feminist Films." But a week later,
when he was still there, we met up inthe bar just before the concert, and
then again after the concert, and Imarried him, like, six months later,
having spent three weeks together.
(07:01):
So That was the kindof … So radio was good.
I really enjoyed radio.
So basically, I kind of started inpublic radio, and then I followed
Graham, who soon became my husband,to London, and was really fortunate
to fall into work with the BBC there.
And that was with BBC WorldService, and it was just … It
(07:25):
was fascinating, and I loved it.
And I went from radio, then into- Mm
television with the BBC again, witha, a fabulous late night current
affair show called News Night.
And we … By then I w- had smallbabies, and I wanted to get back
to Australia, and so we wentback to Australia for six years.
(07:47):
And there was a whole nother setof radio and TV and, you know,
goodness knows what else there.
But I think that I just always … I, Iloved being able to speak with people.
I loved to tell stories.
I loved the medium.
I'd learnt the medium from my mum ina way, and that felt kind of cool.
It feels to me, particularly- Mm … inbroadcast, and maybe even especially
(08:10):
in broadcast television, where youreally don't have a ton of time to
boil down the essence of what it isyou're trying to say, how did you
learn how to do that, and what are
I don't know.
Even for our own listeners, what are sometips and tricks for them to be b- able to
figure out how to boil down the essenceof a story into something so digestible?
Y-
you know, part of it has to dowith just the purpose of it.
(08:34):
Why are you telling a story, you know?
Who is the audience thatyou're trying to reach?
What do you want them to dowhen you hear that story?
And sometimes you kind of stumbleupon it as you're going through all
of those paces, and sometimes thetalent leads you into something.
But I think going into things withthat really kind of clear idea, I
(08:54):
guess that's the sort of Coms 101 ina way, but I never thought of it that
way when I was actually doing it.
But it's having a good idea of whereyou wanna go, but also having the
flexibility to be able to say, "Oh,hang on a second. This is a tangent
that I really do need to go down." Youknow, I remember I interviewed a man
(09:17):
whose wife had been savagely murderedwhen I was in Western Australia,
and just giving space and grace.
It w- it was an interview with himand a woman as well, whose husband
had savagely killed her childrenand left her maimed for life.
I mean, just really hard, hard stuff,and being able to just give the room
(09:44):
For them to breathe, for the storyto breathe, for them to tell the
story, you know, was really important.
So it's that flexibilitypiece to it as well, I think.
And you also covered 9/11 in New Yorkwhen you were freelancing for the BBC.
Yeah.
Was
that a version of that, and what
was that experience like?
Man, that was, that was amazing.
So we had arrived in the US, like,just at the end of 1999, and I had only
(10:12):
just gotten my work permit in 2001.
And I just started to do some work forthe BBC, and I got a phone call when I
was on my way to another job saying, "Aplane, it seems to be a light plane, has
hit the World Trade Center." And I waslike, "Man, really?" Went to my work,
(10:32):
turned on the television, saw what washappening, and then another one, and
then my phone just started to light up.
You know, I was still pretty wellattached to folks at the BBC, and
the main office was in Washington.
And so colleagues of mine fromWashington were trying to drive up
at that point because it was beforePennsylvania or the Pentagon hit.
(10:55):
And they were trying to figure theways that they could get into the city,
and of course, then the Pentagon washit, Pennsylvania happened, so half of
the crew turned around and went backwhile the other half kept on going.
There were some folks from theBBC Bureau in New York who were
already reporting, but they neededa lot of backup at that point.
(11:15):
There was a whole bunch oflogistics, and just the sheer
horror of what had happened.
You're trying to work through this atthe same time as grasping the horror
of it, and walking New York streets.
I mean, even where the BBC was at thatpoint, they had an office on Broadway and
68th, so well up from the Trade Center.
(11:37):
But there was something in the city.
I mean, people were just cryingon street corners together.
We just powered through for days at thatpoint, trying to make sure we could get
satellites up, we could get feeds up,that we could get people in, that we could
get people accredited as well so thatthey could actually be in parts of the
(11:57):
city where they needed to be to report.
It was, it was an extraordinary,extraordinary time.
It feels like it might have almost feltlike being a war correspondent in which
you are at the same time trying tonavigate a horror while doing your job,
telling the story, trying to be competent.
Yeah, exactly.
(12:18):
And I was working as a producer at thatpoint, which I was very happy to do.
There were many other people whowere more capable of being on air.
But also because it was working forthe BBC, there was quite a focus
on the British community as well.
And their- Man, there were some hard,hard stories in that, as you know.
There was also the extraordinarysense of community as people came
(12:43):
together to try and get throughit and help each other- Yeah
through it as well.
Unimaginable.
So okay, now I jump to the flip side.
You gotta get there somewhere.
Over time, you go from- Mm … producingthe news, and then you- Mm … eventually
make your w- way to the world ofphilanthropy, which I have always said is
(13:03):
like, there's like a child on a playgroundwatching other children play, where you
are at least one and sometimes two stepsaway from the so-called actual work.
Mm-hmm.
What, what was that transitionlike for you, and why did you
go to the Ford Foundation toactually do, and how'd that work?
All right.
So I have to do a little bit of fillin from here for you as well, because-
(13:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
I know there's a, there was athing in the middle, but go ahead.
Yeah, fill me
in.
In between, in between, there wasthis one day where I was with the BBC.
I was waiting with a fabulous Australiancameraman called Ian Cartwright.
We were freezing our asses off outsidethe United Nations, waiting for Hans Blix
to come out one more time and tell us onemore time, you know, what was going to or
(13:49):
was not happening in the Security Council.
And it was a hard night.
And when I went home, I got a call saying,"Can you be in Chicago, you know, tomorrow
morning?" And I, at that point, had kids,and I was like- Mm … "I can't do this.
I, I just cannot do it anymore."And lo and behold, the Australian
(14:10):
Mission to the UN had a role for aspokesperson and press s- person.
So I ended up going to the AustralianMission to the UN, which was an
extraordinary experience withsome fabulous people, albeit at a
difficult time, given the positionin the coalition of the willing then.
(14:31):
I used to spend my days running down tothe UN, generally late, in stilettos.
You know, trying, doing my best to be a,a good PR person, as well as doing a bit
of negotiating and all of the rest of it.
And they were really fascinating days.
But I used to run past thisplace that w- had big, you know,
(14:53):
glass panels on it every single-
A really pretty building, right?
And lo and behold, a friend of minesaid, "I saw this great job advertised
the other day in The Economist, andit's for a media relations person
at the Ford Foundation in New York."
And I looked at the address and Iwent- … "Damn, I run past that building
(15:15):
every single day on my way down tothe UN." And so I applied for the job.
And as I think you know,it was the wonderful Alfred
Ironside who interviewed me.
International man of mystery.
International man of mystery.
This interview that was supposed to takehalf an hour took two or thereabouts.
It was, you know, one of thosesessions with Alfred where you
(15:36):
sit and chat, and chat, and chat.
Um, and, uh, and they took a verylong time with their hiring process.
Very long time.
But it turned out it wasthe most wonderful move.
And when I made the transition frombeing a working journalist to being a
spokesperson, it, it was tough initially.
(15:56):
I really found it hard to let goof my identity as a journalist and
to be, you know, what we used torefer to as kind of, you know, the
spook for, for an organization.
But I really grew to love it.
Really grew to love that ability tosynthesize stories, to share stories,
(16:18):
to build strategies for impact inhaving those stories told and the like.
And you eventually becamedirector of story, did you not?
I did.
What's that?
It's a good question, Eric.
I think it was a title actually that Imade up because it was, I think it used to
be called director of content, and I waslike, I feel that it's more than director-
(16:43):
Hmm
… of content.
And I feel that it, it really wasabout the way that we tell stories,
how we tell the story of who we areand of the work that we support.
And I think it was at a time aswell, I mean, I'm sure you remember
this, where really there becamethis huge emphasis on storytelling.
And when after the establishment ofthe Gates philanthropy and other of
(17:08):
those large philanthropies, you know,the more established stater, in a way
seen as stater philanthropies, realizedthat they needed to be able to talk
about their work and that it wasn'tdisrespectful to grantees not, y- you
know, to be taking a front seat on talkingabout the big picture of work at least.
(17:29):
I don't know.
It just felt like that was the title.
That was what we were doing.
We were telling the stories of thework that we supported, of the work
that needs to be done, of the bigpicture of philanthropy, and not
taking a front row seat, but, you know,speaking about the ways in which we
(17:50):
could support the extraordinary workthat was being done by the frontline
people, like the Innocence Project.
Well, that's, whoa, very well done-… 'cause you're gonna, perfect segue.
After the break, we're gonna nowturn to how you have turned this
career of storytelling into what maybe one of the ultimate storytelling
organizations, truly extraordinary or-organization in the Innocence Project.
(18:12):
So we'll take a very quick break andwe'll be right back with Fiona Guthrie.
You're listening to Let's Hear It,
a podcast about foundation andnonprofit communications hosted
by Erik Brown and Kirk Brown.
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Break FakeRules with Glenn Galich, CEO of the
Stupski Foundation, as he chats withinspiring leaders in philanthropy,
(18:35):
government, media, and more aboutbreaking the fake rules that don't work
so that we can build a future that does.
Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now, back to the show.
And we are back with FionaGuthrie, head of communications
at the Innocence Project.
Let's just dive right in.
(18:55):
Tell folks about the InnocenceProject, for the nine people
out there who don't know.
What an amazing organization.
Thank you.
It is an amazing organization, and itwas started back in 1992 as a really
small clinic, really, in a law schoolby Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld.
And DNA was new on the scene, andthey believed that if you could
(19:19):
establish guilt with DNA, that youcould establish innocence with DNA.
And it's fair to say that at the time thatthey were suggesting this, there really
wasn't a concept of wrongful convictionin the way that we understand it today.
You know, there was a much greaterbelief in the infallibility
(19:41):
of the criminal legal system.
But DNA showed that, in fact,we do get it wrong sometimes,
and that things like Eyewitnessmisidentification, that coerced guilty
pleas, that police and prosecutorialmisconduct are indeed a real thing.
(20:03):
And so Peter and Barry havedone an extraordinary job
in growing the organization.
So it's grown from when it was a lawclinic in Cardozo to now, where we're
an organization of almost 130 people.
We have freed or exoneratedmore than 250 people.
(20:24):
We have passed more than250 transformative laws.
We have changed some of the practicesin forensic science, and we've
advanced a movement for change.
We went from about 160 followers, I think,when we brought on our first digital
engagement person, and she has donean extraordinary job in building that
(20:50):
from 160 to we now have more than fivemillion supporters who would consider
themselves part of the innocence movement.
And on top of that, there are alsomore than 70 organizations around the
country, and a few internationally,that also do innocence work.
So it's been an extraordinarytransformation over the
(21:12):
course of nearly 34 years.
It's an amazing story.
I can imagine, however, that coming intothe chair that you now sit in, I would
just be intimidated for so many reasons.
How did you think about tackling thisjob and how you could use communications
to support this incredible work?
You know, I think the thing also aboutthe Innocence Project that makes it such
(21:36):
an extraordinary organization is theclients, is the freed and exonerated
people who make up the community.
I mean, the stories of their wrongfulconviction, the stories of their freedom
and exoneration are so compelling, andthey are such extraordinary people.
(22:00):
I mean, the, the grace and theresilience of each and every one Of
the people who have been exoneratedand freed by the organization
is, is palpable and overwhelming.
And we have the enormous privilegeand responsibility for telling their
(22:22):
stories and telling them in waysthat are authentic and respectful and
that can move the needle on change.
And the fact that they allow usto do that and that they are part
of it and they are so engaged andinvolved in the organization is
an extraordinary bonus for us.
When we go into a state house andwe want to challenge a bill or
(22:48):
speak to a bill, here's an example.
In New Hampshire, there was amovement to try to reinstate the
death penalty And we went with oneof our clients from Florida- Mm
a wonderful man called Paul Hildwin,who faced the death penalty,
who had his last meal, and waseventually freed and found innocent.
(23:12):
And to be that close to death and tobe prepared to use your voice to try
to change the laws, the practices, theprotocols in this country is incredibly
brave and generous, and it allows usto tell really powerful stories, to
(23:35):
be a really powerful force for change.
As you said, the concept of innocencehas- Mm … has shifted, or the
understanding that the criminal systemhas flaws, that it has weaknesses that
need to be addressed in order to makeit fairer and better, and that it,
it feels to me like there has been ashift in consciousness in this country.
(23:57):
Not completely, but it is moving, inwhich we understand that these systems are
imperfect and they need to be made better.
And I would say that InnocenceProject has played a really important
role in shifting a norm like that.
It seems to me that if you can shiftthe norm around something as fundamental
as innocence and guilt, and franklychange m- people's minds around the
(24:20):
death penalty because they understandthat it is not being applied equally or-
Mm
justly, that you could shiftthe norms around lots of stuff.
Ha- have you thought about that, andhave you thought about working with
people in other maybe related fieldsabout what this process of consciousness
changing in this country can offer?
That is such a good question, and Iwill say that, you know, my current ED,
(24:44):
Christina Swarns, who is an extraordinaryleader and lawyer who was part of a very
famous Supreme Court case, uh, whichwas around Duane Buck, has said many
times that the Innocence Project isthe most transformative criminal legal
(25:07):
reform organization in the country.
And she says that because that conceptof innocence and the fallibility
of the law has been made so clearby the organization, and that,
she says, has been transformative.
We have an enormous advantage, asI said, because we have the lived
(25:28):
experiences of clients of the freedand exonerated community who give so
generously of their time to make surethat we lessen the possibility of this
happening to anybody else, and that wetry to transform the systems that allow
for these sorts of things to happen.
(25:50):
And belonging to the communicationsnetwork is part of that, of
being able to share experience.
I mean, we have lots to learn fromother organizations, just as I'm
sure we have things that we canshare and teach other organizations.
But, you know, part of, part of it goesback to what you were talking about
earlier, you know, the power of story.
(26:11):
The power of being able to tell storiesthat will move hearts and minds.
The power of being able to find thethings that will resonate with people.
I think in our case, we arevery clear about our mission.
We are not a criminal legal reformorganization ad nauseam, although
(26:34):
much of the work that we do willhave impact on the system overall.
Everything we do, every sentenceends with wrongful conviction.
Mm-hmm.
And we're very clear about that.
And that is an important lesson fororganizations as well, is being able
to see where there can be sharingof knowledge and impact and tactics
(26:56):
and ideas and all of those things,and also recognizing when it is
important for you to keep to your lane.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
I, I just think that's a real fundamental.
I also saw the work ofyour executive director.
It was made into a Broadway play with-
Yes
… no less than Adrien Brody and Tessa Thompson.
(27:17):
And as someone who grew up in the theater,I understand the power of theater, but
I would never think that if, as the headof comms of a nonprofit organization,
that your work would end up on Broadway.
Yeah.
And to see actors dealing withyour issues and an audience live
experiencing them, that must be suchan interesting and cool experience.
(27:38):
Has there been anything special thatcame out of that experience that has
helped you or think about your job ortelling stories or anything at all?
Oh my God, there's so much, Eric,so much that's special about that.
But I want to correct one thing inthat- This is a play, The Fear of
13 is a play about Nick Yarris, uh,who was on death row in Pennsylvania
(28:00):
and was exonerated with DNA.
He was a client of Christina Swarnswhen she was in a different role,
not as part of the Innocence Project.
So even though he is partof the Innocence- Right
movement, it wasn't directlya client of ours, but- Y-
your disclaimers are noted.
(28:22):
But it was such an extraordinaryplay, and we, we were invited to
partner with them, which was awonderful privilege and honor for us.
We did a talk back with AdrienBrody and Tessa Thompson.
We were able to introduce a, awonderful freed and exonerated
client called Tamaine Hicks, andTamaine is also a budding playwright.
(28:47):
And in fact, you can hear about Tamaine's,uh, playwriting history while he was
wrongfully incarcerated in Pennsylvaniaon Stories of Freedom, which is a project
that we did together with StoryCorps.
And, uh, Tamaine is talking with hislawyer, Karen Thompson, about his
playwriting while he was incarcerated.
(29:09):
But he was able to then meet with LindsayFerrentino, who wrote the play Fear of 13,
so they've got a partnership going there.
We were able to invite others inour freed and exonerated community
to come and watch the play as well.
It has just been an extraordinarypartnership, and wonderful to see
(29:32):
this sort of work out there in popularculture being understood to audiences
who may not have been exposed to wrongfulconviction and what it looks like.
And it was a remarkable experience for usall, and it is a gift that kept on giving.
(29:52):
There were posts every- I mean, I don'tknow if you followed the social media,
but man, it was everywhere all the time.
I, I guess the lesson I take away fromthat is that you never know where the
water's gonna flow from your work.
Yeah.
And I just think that thatis really fun and cool.
I'm not telling everybody they should goout and write a play about their work.
Other than that, what I am th-saying is that you never know
(30:13):
what cool thing is gonna happen.
Yeah.
Good.
Oh, so okay, I'm gonna shift gearsa little bit in the last couple
of minutes that we have left.
I'm thinking about your work and howmuch progress you have made, and then
I look at, I pick up the newspaperand I think, "Oh my God. Are we in
for a bumpy, bumpy ride?" It feelsto me like up is down these days.
How are you managing the current politicalclimate, the s- current social climate,
(30:37):
the deep challenges and divisions that wefeel are getting exacerbated these days?
How do you, how do you turn thatinto something positive or how do you
figure out how to navigate that inorder to be successful in your work?
I think it goes back to whatI said before, in part, is
really being mission-focused.
You know, we are very clearabout what our mission is, what
(30:58):
is the lane in which we operate.
We worry about due process.
We worry about funding for theprograms that we think are really
important to furthering innocencework throughout the country.
And that said, that is on a federal level.
The majority of the work that wedo really is on a state level,
(31:22):
and there it is different, andit is changing all the time.
And we know that with our legislativeprograms, for example, that you may
be working over various years oflegislative sessions and the like.
But we really try to ensure thatwe are always keeping in sight that
(31:42):
mission of wrongful conviction, ofrestoring freedom, of transforming
systems, and of building a movement.
And so we are incredibly clear andthoughtful about what are the areas
that we are going to lean into.
And we can't do everything.
We would love to do everythingand have that magic wand- … to
(32:04):
kinda change it all up.
But much of the work that we dois dictated by the cases that we
take on, the areas, the states,the constituencies, the courts, the
legislatures in which we are working.
And we are always, as the communicationsteam, we are always there trying to build
(32:27):
that movement, to grow the support basefor all that we do, to get people to give
us their phone numbers so that we can getthem to call legislators when they need
to, to get them to participate in all ofthe campaigns that we're running across
all of our various platforms and systems.
It's extraordinary work, and justso impressed, and I'm so happy
(32:51):
for you that you get to do this.
And I'm really grateful that you wereable to come on and talk to us about this.
Fiona Guthrie, thank you sovery much for your work and
for coming and talking to us.
It was such a pleasure.
I'm sure that you know I'm a hugeevangelist for communications, and
I love this work, every piece of it.
(33:12):
Sometimes it's really hard, butthe successes and the joy when we
manage to win, when we are able tofree or exonerate someone who's been
incarcerated for decades wrongfully,lost all of that time in their
life, it's an extraordinary moment.
Well, you are doingthe work of the angels.
(33:32):
Thank you again, Fiona.
And we're back.
So can we start?
That little intro, Eric,you gave was so good.
You're getting really good at that.
Yeah, am I?
Yeah, and I just, Ihave one request, which
I want all of our guests to have Fiona'saccent, 'cause man, it's a good accent.
Lordy, that was great
You know, I'm sure she'sheard it more than once.
(33:52):
So walk me through the arc here,because Fiona starts in journalism
and then moves through a majorfoundation, the Ford Foundation, and
then comes to the Innocence Project.
And so often, this is part ofthe story of the folks that come
on this podcast, they have thatoriginal grounding in journalism.
And I love that introductoryquestion you asked.
(34:12):
Yeah.
Where's the story?
How do you find the essence of the story?
And law is so much about framing.
It's about framing the problem at hand.
So it's so inherently inthe communication space.
Yep.
And yet, how do we secure justice?
How do we move fromwrongful guilt to innocence?
You've gotta be able totell the story correctly.
I love Fiona's reaction to yourquestion because it is the most salient
and yet most difficult to answerquestion that any of us could face,
(34:34):
which is like, where's the story?
How do I know there's a story here?
And how do I surfaceit in a meaningful way?
But that's it.
She starts with that journalismbackground, gives us that great backstory
for how that all unfolded, and yet at theheart of this is like, what's the story?
How can that story changeworlds and change lives?
It's interesting.
You know, I always wanted to be a lawyer.
I even took the LSAT and I wantedto go to law school, but I didn't-
(34:55):
Really?
Yeah.
I didn't do very well on theLSAT, and so I didn't get into a
particularly good l- law school, soI- … decided not to go into the law.
But I love lawyer things.
I love legal thrillers.
I love all of it.
And they say that the evidence isgreat, but the lawyer who wins at trial
is the one who tells a better story.
Yes.
(35:15):
Yes.
So that's at the top of my mind.
The other thing is that people who endup in this profession, who end up in
communications, philanthropy, whatever,they come from lots of different places.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of them do come from journalism.
I don't wonder why, because again,you're, you're writing a story.
You're trying to boil something down intosomething that people can understand,
that can move them to action, that canmove them to tears, that can move them
(35:39):
to donating money, all of that stuff.
So we're trying to connect withpeople emotionally, and we're trying
to connect with their intellect.
And Fiona has this wonderful-Yeah … background.
Right, right.
She did radio.
She did drive time radio.
She was on chat shows.
Uh, sh- then she went on intothe news and she covered 9/11.
(36:00):
So having that incredible body of workbefore you allows you to call upon
these various skills and talents andexperiences that you've had over time.
And for her to be able to take all of thatand roll it up and use it- Yeah … at
the Innocence Project to get peopleoff death row, to get people out of
(36:21):
prison who were unjustly incarcerated.
And needless to say, many of thesepeople, if not most of these people,
were most likely unjustly incarceratedbecause of their social status- Yeah
the color of their skin,their ethnic or their racial
background, that sort of thing.
So there's so much injustice outthere, and to be able to redress that-
(36:43):
Yeah
… feels to me like one of the great, great gifts That a person can do.
And that's why this work is soimportant, and that's why it's
so exciting to talk to her.
And this is where we have all theesteem for our former journalist
colleagues, because to move fromjournalism to then go to the Ford
Foundation, don't know if you'veheard of it, pretty cool institution.
Pretty important organization.
(37:04):
And, and that's a toughtransition for Fiona, right?
It's, it's like- Yes
it's like you get to goto the Ford Foundation.
It's like, yeah, I know, but man,I, I, I hate leaving that behind.
But yet you get to bring that s-so much good from the platform
of the Ford Foundation, too.
Well, the Ford Foundation isa really interesting place.
Obviously, they had a famousCEO in Darren Walker- Mm-hmm
(37:26):
for most of the timethat Fiona was at Ford.
It is this august institutionwith a long, long history, lots
of money, and lots of influence.
But at the same time, it's philanthropy-… which, you know, you are one step
removed from the so-called actual work.
Yeah.
And so going from being a reportercovering 9/11, and then she went to work
(37:47):
at the Australian Mission to the UN- Mm
which is its own separate kind of weird,crazy thing, to working at the Ford
Foundation, it is, it's interesting.
Yeah.
And I, I think there's some cultureshock that probably occurs when you
go to Ford, not the least of whichis all those free beverages- Well,
you do it
… in the refrigerator.
(38:08):
And the lunch.
And it's a pretty building,and you got a nice office.
It is a different- How
do you-
You know.
How do you work for-
Toto.
Oh, man.
How do you, how do you-
We're not at BBC anymore.
How do you work for a major foundation andnot immediately double your body weight?
That, that part of the org said there'sfood and drink available at all times.
At, at the
very least, y- you becomeastonishingly hydrated.
(38:35):
Right.
There are no-
Like, and a littlecaffeinated, I have to say
… no issues with the electrolytes.
Well, so, and so, so here, here's theheart, too, and you guys just went by this
very quickly, but I thought it was such agood little insight into this transition.
Because part of what Fiona does atFord is says, "You know, you wanna
call me the director of content, andI wanna be the director of story.
(38:56):
In fact, I am the director ofstory." And I, I love that little
acknowledgement, and it's so funny.
Those two words, content versusstory, are so transformative.
You know, think about that.
What carries content?
You know?
It's, like, such a- Yeah … it'ssuch a dead, such an inactive, and
yet it's actually such an aproposword for kind of a sensibility, I
think, at times about our field.
(39:17):
It's like, well, just,just plug into our content.
This is all you need.
Take our content, right?
It's like, no, actually- Right … weneed to fly on the wings of story.
So, so within Ford, Fiona's like, "Hey,we've gotta think about this differently
and more impactfully." I've… And,and so she does not actually leave
her journalism bona fides at the door.
She says, "I'm gonna bringthis right in with me when
I'm doing all this work here."
(39:37):
Yeah.
Director of content is kindof like director of stuff.
Right?
It's like all the things we have,
you know?
And director of story islike director of music.
I don't know.
But then- Moving to the Innocence Project.
And before we get into some ofthe specifics about how Fiona
has addressed that, I do wanna…
You know, Fiona did itin such passing so well.
(40:00):
Talked about the impact, and that'swhy I brought it up in the intro.
They haven't just freed people, butthey've changed laws- Right … they've
changed practices, and they've createdthis movement with all these supporters.
And how many of our nonprofits areactually trying to work across that
depth and breadth of outcomes, right?
So it's not even just I'm doingthe work to advance this mission,
whatever that looks like, but whenyou look at how that gets expressed,
(40:23):
it's always gonna be expressed inthese very different dimensions
in terms of how things sort out.
Like, the communications that gobeyond advancing law and policy are
very different than what it takes toactually support all the work that goes
around to establishing innocence, tochanging practices at forensic sites.
Who even knows what that looks like?
But I can imagine, but I can imaginethat looks a little bit different than
actually the work you need to do tobuild an actual place-based movement
(40:45):
of over five million supporters.
So to me, that's another part of this.
The dimensions of the work here isthink about the depth and breadth
of just all the domains that Fionais working across and all of her
colleagues at the Innocence Project.
I just love that it works, thatthey have the ambition to do
it, but that it actually works,that they can pull that off.
Well, it's very interesting in thatshe said a lot of what we do is stay
(41:06):
to our lane- Yes … by focusingvery specifically on people who were
incorrectly incarcerated- Yeah … andwe can prove that they're innocent.
And just by doing that, it opens upthe opportunities for lots of other
people to say, "Hey, wait a minute.
Let's look at this so-calledcriminal justice system.
(41:27):
Let's look at who we're incarceratingwithout the evidence that these people
have actually committed a crime.
What does that say about us?
What does it say about us as a community?
What does it say about our systems?"And a lot of other folks are
asking those questions, and they'reproviding the jumping-off point by
just focusing on these people who areinnocent and deserve to walk free.
(41:48):
And that is creating this much broader,incredibly powerful movement that is a
reminder to folks doing all kinds of work,what can I be very specific about that
makes space to build something bigger?
Yeah, and to st- stay within your lane.
And then to me, this is the echo inthe mirror from Fiona's own journey.
(42:08):
So think about this transition and rolesfrom journalist to major foundation
leader and story to now working on thisseminal work around the Innocence Project.
But the concept of identity andall the different identities that
Fiona has worked through in Fiona'scareer and then thinking about that.
Now you're talking aboutyour identity is a criminal.
Your identity is you are convicted.
(42:31):
And Fiona's saying, "You know,actually," and her colleagues,
"No, actually, that's not true.
This is, there's a different story.
We have to capture a differentidentity for this person." And, and I
was thinking as Fiona was talking, Iwas like, wow, how often Our work is
involved in this notion of identity.
Hmm.
You know, we've had so many of ourguests come on and talk about the
language we use to- Right … establishcertain kinds of identity.
(42:52):
It's so unfair.
It so hollows people out.
So you were talking with Fiona about ifyou can do this in this way, you should
be able to do it all these different ways.
So I'm like, just thislanguage about identity- Yeah
just this storytelling about you havea different identity, that what, what's
being said about you is not true.
To me, that's the part that's just souniversally relevant for all the work
we're doing across all of our spaces.
(43:14):
And so again, the graciousness of Fiona tocome on and talk about it, it was really,
really cool and exciting to hear about.
Yeah, and as, as you're saying this, I wasthinking, well folks, if you're listening
to this and this is interesting, goback and listen to the Trebien Shorters-
Yes
… ep- episodes- Yes … 'cause he, he talks about that all the time.
Uh, you know, we talk about kidswho are at-risk youth instead of
kids who would like to get a job.
(43:34):
Thank you very much.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, no, we, we, we had ourcolleague on who was talking
about their work with what?
The homeless or the unhoused.
Right.
You know what I mean?
Like, like, so, so often ourlanguage is jumping around.
Like people who deservea nice place to live.
L-
let's face it, though, the real reasonthat Fiona was on this podcast is because
you're trying to get your in- yourselfinserted into that Broadway play.
(43:55):
I totally know what's going on here.
It's so obvious.
I d- I don't think
that's gonna happen.
You were so jealous.
You were so wishing.
But talk about depth of breath, right?
And obviously Fiona was very clearabout whose story that represents and
whose worth it represents, but therange of this work is so relevant.
It reaches all the way out ina very poignant way and touches
people on the Broadway stage.
(44:16):
So again, you, to have somebody whocould be in that chief communications
officer role for an organizationworking across this many different
places, you'd have to have somebodywith Fiona's gifts and talents, right?
Yeah.
Like, it's just so, it's so clear.
It's so obvious.
It's such a great career, andthe work she does is so important
and delightful in so many ways.
It was a great opportunity to chat withher and to hear more about her work.
(44:39):
You've known Fiona a long time.
Uh, where does the gracefulnessand the graciousness come from?
Because these are hard beats.
It's tough to be a journalist.
It's tough to actually do foundationphilanthropy work at scale, you know?
It's tough to actually workin the front lines of helping
overturn wrongful convictions.
W- is that just, is that teachable, or isthat just, is that, you just get lucky?
(45:00):
Fiona just got lucky.
Is that it?
I think we all have to remindourselves to be gracious.
But, and, you know, shecomes from central Australia.
You think you're hot?
She comes from hard scrabble stuff.
Maybe.
And so, you know, you andyour Marin County hot heat.
Ha ha
ha.
Maybe, maybe that's the answer.
(45:21):
Maybe it's that originstory that has some…
You run into some conflict in someway as part of your origin story.
Yeah.
That's actually thething that comes through.
Well, Eric, is there anythingelse about the Innocence Project
we should be talking about?
'Cause it was a really cool conversation.
There's so many differentdirections we could take it, but- Oh
Fiona Guthrie, my goodness.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Oh, the one thing that I will say isthat she referenced, I think it was
StoryCorps work- Hmm … which we'll put,we'll put into the episode description.
(45:43):
That's great.
Yep.
And StoryCorps, another great organizationthat's been doing such seminal work.
Well, so thank you so much, Eric.
So that was Fiona Guthrie, thechief communications officer
from the Innocence Project.
Thank you so much for joining us on Let'sHear It, and stay cool wherever you are.
Stay gracious wherever you are.
Thank you, everybody.
Okay, everybody, that'sit for this episode.
(46:04):
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAllea, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music.
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation.
And please check out Lumina'sterrific podcast, Today's Students,
Tomorrow's Talent, and you canfind that at luminafoundation.org.
(46:26):
We certainly thank today'sguest, and of course, all of you.
And most importantly,thank you, Mr. Brown.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Okay, everybody.
Till next time
Welcome to Let's Hear It.
Let's Hear It is a podcast for and aboutthe field of foundation and nonprofit
communications, produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No
relation.
Well said, Eric.
And I'm Kirk.
And I'm Eric.
Let's Hear It is sponsored by thePrebys Foundation, a foundation
creating an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.
(00:22):
Check out their amazingly goodpodcast, Stop & Talk, hosted by
Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
You can find them atstopandtalkpodcast.com.
You can find Let's Hear It on anypodcast subscription platform.
You can find us onlineat letzhearitcast.com.
And if you like the show, please,please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts
so that more people can find us.
(00:43):
Let's get on to the show
It's hot
here, which means it's perfect there,and that really makes me angry.
I think it got… It was 72 today,and I was a little, slightly warm.
Right.
You were a little insulted andput out that it was 72 degrees.
I was slightly warm.
Yeah.
But, you know, I'll take it.
The entire country and Northern Europeis suffering under a heat dome right now.
I'm telling you, everyone,you can come to San Francisco.
(01:05):
It's very cool.
It's true.
It gets colder and colder.
So we've got a good one today, andthis is so interesting and important
what you're about to do here, and thenwe'll come back and talk about it.
But, you know, it strikes me, everytopic we have on Let's Hear It affects
us all, but I feel like this is maybe themost salient one because this affects us
(01:26):
all, and yet how many of us wake up inthe morning and think, "You know what?
Someday my innocence mightbe questioned wrongly"?
How many of us think that?
So talk about this interviewbecause it's, it's so good.
It's so good.
I interviewed Fiona Guthrie, whoruns communications for the Innocence
Project, with which many people willunderstand is the organization that
(01:48):
uses DNA technology to help peoplewho have been incorrectly accused of
a crime and incarcerated be freed.
And so this is one of those thingsthat speaks to the sense of justice and
fairness in this country and how it'spossible that y- n- neither you or I
will ever do time for a crime we didn'tcommit, but there are a lot of folks
(02:11):
out there who are, and some folks whoare on death row who may be executed
for a crime that they did not commit,which the Innocence Project can prove.
But what they have done, I think,is open up the minds of people about
how the so-called criminal justicesystem operates in this country.
And so I spoke to Fiona about herwork, about how she thinks about
stories and telling stories thatmove people, and about her great
(02:35):
career in Australia and in the UK,and she's just a delightful person.
And this is a great illustration of j-the audacity of giving something a shot.
You know, you start from a small project.
It's something that'sfreed over 250 people.
It's passed t- over 200 laws.
It's changed practices.
It's created a movement34 years in the making.
So Fiona Guthrie, thankyou so much for joining us.
(02:56):
So this is Fiona Guthrie, the chiefcommunications officer for the
Innocence Project on Let's Hear It.
Let's listen, and we'll come back.
Story is a funny word.
A news story sets a set of factsarranged to help you understand
what happened, let's say.
A personal story is how someone makessense of what happened to those facts.
A foundation story can be about howan institution explains why it exists,
(03:20):
maybe what it's doing with its money.
They're all stories, andthey have multiple uses.
My guest today, Fiona Guthrie,has told all of these stories.
Fiona spent years producing newsat the BBC and at ABC in Australia,
where a story was somethingyou filed for a deadline, say.
Later, she spent over a decade atthe Ford Foundation, where a story
(03:42):
was something you used to maybe tryto shift social policies or norms.
And now she runs communications forthe Innocence Project, where a story is
often the only thing standing betweenan innocent person and the rest of their
life behind bars Fiona has been usingstories to change lives for decades, and
I cannot wait to talk to her about howshe does it and what she has learned.
(04:04):
Fiona Guthrie, thank you so muchfor joining us on Let's Hear It.
Oh my God, it's such a pleasure, Eric,and that was such a great introduction.
Ooh.
I'm so glad.
I hope you agree with at leasthalf of the things I just said.
At, at least half- … of the thingsthat you said, but I may employ you as
my personal PR person at this point.
I'm available for that, and, and, youknow, weddings and bar mitzvahs as well.
(04:28):
Love it.
So Fiona, thanks so much.
I've been hoping to have you onthe show for such a long time.
I've known you for many years-Mm-hmm … and I've just admired
your work for such a long time.
This is, this is gonna be terrific.
I, I wanna go back, because I know youstarted in broadcasting, and you went back
and forth between the UK and Australia.
I know you worked in radio,you worked in television.
Tell me about those early days.
Oh, my goodness.
(04:49):
Those early days, well, Ireally fell into public radio.
My mother had been a nurse and astay-at-home mom, and when we moved
to Broken Hill, which is a miningtown in the middle of Australia-
Ooh … and someone asked her, becauseshe had a great voice and personality,
if she wanted to do some radio, youknow, become involved in interviewing
(05:14):
and the like, and she said yes.
And so she became this kind of personalitywho went around with her trusty tape
recorder, which was a kind of cassetteplayer, or the Nagra recorder, which is a
big deal- Ah, yes … in the, in the day.
And she became the sort ofradio personality for the
Country Hour in Australia.
(05:35):
And so I guess it was a bit of agenerational transfer of talent, because
when I went to university, I was finishingup my BA in history and politics, not sure
what I was about to do, and someone said,"Oh, come and do a radio show with me."
You know, it's student radio.
There was a local public broadcastingstation on the campus at which I was
(05:58):
studying, and so I started doing radioshows and doing radio music shows.
And then I did classical music shows,and then I did talk radio, which I
loved, that kind of magazine format.
You know, you'd have guests on,the local actors or whoever was the
talent passing through or the like.
(06:19):
And in fact, the local talent passingthrough, I was asked to go and interview
a British brass ensemble- And I wentout to do it and interviewed this rather
charming British gentleman who said, "Isthere any jazz happening in this town?"
And I went, "There is tonight." And hesaid, "Well, do you wanna come with me?"
(06:41):
And I said, "No, because I'm goingto Feminist Films." But a week later,
when he was still there, we met up inthe bar just before the concert, and
then again after the concert, and Imarried him, like, six months later,
having spent three weeks together.
(07:01):
So That was the kindof … So radio was good.
I really enjoyed radio.
So basically, I kind of started inpublic radio, and then I followed
Graham, who soon became my husband,to London, and was really fortunate
to fall into work with the BBC there.
And that was with BBC WorldService, and it was just … It
(07:25):
was fascinating, and I loved it.
And I went from radio, then into- Mm
television with the BBC again, witha, a fabulous late night current
affair show called News Night.
And we … By then I w- had smallbabies, and I wanted to get back
to Australia, and so we wentback to Australia for six years.
(07:47):
And there was a whole nother setof radio and TV and, you know,
goodness knows what else there.
But I think that I just always … I, Iloved being able to speak with people.
I loved to tell stories.
I loved the medium.
I'd learnt the medium from my mum ina way, and that felt kind of cool.
It feels to me, particularly- Mm … inbroadcast, and maybe even especially
(08:10):
in broadcast television, where youreally don't have a ton of time to
boil down the essence of what it isyou're trying to say, how did you
learn how to do that, and what are
I don't know.
Even for our own listeners, what are sometips and tricks for them to be b- able to
figure out how to boil down the essenceof a story into something so digestible?
Y-
you know, part of it has to dowith just the purpose of it.
(08:34):
Why are you telling a story, you know?
Who is the audience thatyou're trying to reach?
What do you want them to dowhen you hear that story?
And sometimes you kind of stumbleupon it as you're going through all
of those paces, and sometimes thetalent leads you into something.
But I think going into things withthat really kind of clear idea, I
(08:54):
guess that's the sort of Coms 101 ina way, but I never thought of it that
way when I was actually doing it.
But it's having a good idea of whereyou wanna go, but also having the
flexibility to be able to say, "Oh,hang on a second. This is a tangent
that I really do need to go down." Youknow, I remember I interviewed a man
(09:17):
whose wife had been savagely murderedwhen I was in Western Australia,
and just giving space and grace.
It w- it was an interview with himand a woman as well, whose husband
had savagely killed her childrenand left her maimed for life.
I mean, just really hard, hard stuff,and being able to just give the room
(09:44):
For them to breathe, for the storyto breathe, for them to tell the
story, you know, was really important.
So it's that flexibilitypiece to it as well, I think.
And you also covered 9/11 in New Yorkwhen you were freelancing for the BBC.
Yeah.
Was
that a version of that, and what
was that experience like?
Man, that was, that was amazing.
So we had arrived in the US, like,just at the end of 1999, and I had only
(10:12):
just gotten my work permit in 2001.
And I just started to do some work forthe BBC, and I got a phone call when I
was on my way to another job saying, "Aplane, it seems to be a light plane, has
hit the World Trade Center." And I waslike, "Man, really?" Went to my work,
(10:32):
turned on the television, saw what washappening, and then another one, and
then my phone just started to light up.
You know, I was still pretty wellattached to folks at the BBC, and
the main office was in Washington.
And so colleagues of mine fromWashington were trying to drive up
at that point because it was beforePennsylvania or the Pentagon hit.
(10:55):
And they were trying to figure theways that they could get into the city,
and of course, then the Pentagon washit, Pennsylvania happened, so half of
the crew turned around and went backwhile the other half kept on going.
There were some folks from theBBC Bureau in New York who were
already reporting, but they neededa lot of backup at that point.
(11:15):
There was a whole bunch oflogistics, and just the sheer
horror of what had happened.
You're trying to work through this atthe same time as grasping the horror
of it, and walking New York streets.
I mean, even where the BBC was at thatpoint, they had an office on Broadway and
68th, so well up from the Trade Center.
(11:37):
But there was something in the city.
I mean, people were just cryingon street corners together.
We just powered through for days at thatpoint, trying to make sure we could get
satellites up, we could get feeds up,that we could get people in, that we could
get people accredited as well so thatthey could actually be in parts of the
(11:57):
city where they needed to be to report.
It was, it was an extraordinary,extraordinary time.
It feels like it might have almost feltlike being a war correspondent in which
you are at the same time trying tonavigate a horror while doing your job,
telling the story, trying to be competent.
Yeah, exactly.
(12:18):
And I was working as a producer at thatpoint, which I was very happy to do.
There were many other people whowere more capable of being on air.
But also because it was working forthe BBC, there was quite a focus
on the British community as well.
And their- Man, there were some hard,hard stories in that, as you know.
There was also the extraordinarysense of community as people came
(12:43):
together to try and get throughit and help each other- Yeah
through it as well.
Unimaginable.
So okay, now I jump to the flip side.
You gotta get there somewhere.
Over time, you go from- Mm … producingthe news, and then you- Mm … eventually
make your w- way to the world ofphilanthropy, which I have always said is
(13:03):
like, there's like a child on a playgroundwatching other children play, where you
are at least one and sometimes two stepsaway from the so-called actual work.
Mm-hmm.
What, what was that transitionlike for you, and why did you
go to the Ford Foundation toactually do, and how'd that work?
All right.
So I have to do a little bit of fillin from here for you as well, because-
(13:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
I know there's a, there was athing in the middle, but go ahead.
Yeah, fill me
in.
In between, in between, there wasthis one day where I was with the BBC.
I was waiting with a fabulous Australiancameraman called Ian Cartwright.
We were freezing our asses off outsidethe United Nations, waiting for Hans Blix
to come out one more time and tell us onemore time, you know, what was going to or
(13:49):
was not happening in the Security Council.
And it was a hard night.
And when I went home, I got a call saying,"Can you be in Chicago, you know, tomorrow
morning?" And I, at that point, had kids,and I was like- Mm … "I can't do this.
I, I just cannot do it anymore."And lo and behold, the Australian
(14:10):
Mission to the UN had a role for aspokesperson and press s- person.
So I ended up going to the AustralianMission to the UN, which was an
extraordinary experience withsome fabulous people, albeit at a
difficult time, given the positionin the coalition of the willing then.
(14:31):
I used to spend my days running down tothe UN, generally late, in stilettos.
You know, trying, doing my best to be a,a good PR person, as well as doing a bit
of negotiating and all of the rest of it.
And they were really fascinating days.
But I used to run past thisplace that w- had big, you know,
(14:53):
glass panels on it every single-
A really pretty building, right?
And lo and behold, a friend of minesaid, "I saw this great job advertised
the other day in The Economist, andit's for a media relations person
at the Ford Foundation in New York."
And I looked at the address and Iwent- … "Damn, I run past that building
(15:15):
every single day on my way down tothe UN." And so I applied for the job.
And as I think you know,it was the wonderful Alfred
Ironside who interviewed me.
International man of mystery.
International man of mystery.
This interview that was supposed to takehalf an hour took two or thereabouts.
It was, you know, one of thosesessions with Alfred where you
(15:36):
sit and chat, and chat, and chat.
Um, and, uh, and they took a verylong time with their hiring process.
Very long time.
But it turned out it wasthe most wonderful move.
And when I made the transition frombeing a working journalist to being a
spokesperson, it, it was tough initially.
(15:56):
I really found it hard to let goof my identity as a journalist and
to be, you know, what we used torefer to as kind of, you know, the
spook for, for an organization.
But I really grew to love it.
Really grew to love that ability tosynthesize stories, to share stories,
(16:18):
to build strategies for impact inhaving those stories told and the like.
And you eventually becamedirector of story, did you not?
I did.
What's that?
It's a good question, Eric.
I think it was a title actually that Imade up because it was, I think it used to
be called director of content, and I waslike, I feel that it's more than director-
(16:43):
Hmm
… of content.
And I feel that it, it really wasabout the way that we tell stories,
how we tell the story of who we areand of the work that we support.
And I think it was at a time aswell, I mean, I'm sure you remember
this, where really there becamethis huge emphasis on storytelling.
And when after the establishment ofthe Gates philanthropy and other of
(17:08):
those large philanthropies, you know,the more established stater, in a way
seen as stater philanthropies, realizedthat they needed to be able to talk
about their work and that it wasn'tdisrespectful to grantees not, y- you
know, to be taking a front seat on talkingabout the big picture of work at least.
(17:29):
I don't know.
It just felt like that was the title.
That was what we were doing.
We were telling the stories of thework that we supported, of the work
that needs to be done, of the bigpicture of philanthropy, and not
taking a front row seat, but, you know,speaking about the ways in which we
(17:50):
could support the extraordinary workthat was being done by the frontline
people, like the Innocence Project.
Well, that's, whoa, very well done-… 'cause you're gonna, perfect segue.
After the break, we're gonna nowturn to how you have turned this
career of storytelling into what maybe one of the ultimate storytelling
organizations, truly extraordinary or-organization in the Innocence Project.
(18:12):
So we'll take a very quick break andwe'll be right back with Fiona Guthrie.
You're listening to Let's Hear It,
a podcast about foundation andnonprofit communications hosted
by Erik Brown and Kirk Brown.
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Break FakeRules with Glenn Galich, CEO of the
Stupski Foundation, as he chats withinspiring leaders in philanthropy,
(18:35):
government, media, and more aboutbreaking the fake rules that don't work
so that we can build a future that does.
Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now, back to the show.
And we are back with FionaGuthrie, head of communications
at the Innocence Project.
Let's just dive right in.
(18:55):
Tell folks about the InnocenceProject, for the nine people
out there who don't know.
What an amazing organization.
Thank you.
It is an amazing organization, and itwas started back in 1992 as a really
small clinic, really, in a law schoolby Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld.
And DNA was new on the scene, andthey believed that if you could
(19:19):
establish guilt with DNA, that youcould establish innocence with DNA.
And it's fair to say that at the time thatthey were suggesting this, there really
wasn't a concept of wrongful convictionin the way that we understand it today.
You know, there was a much greaterbelief in the infallibility
(19:41):
of the criminal legal system.
But DNA showed that, in fact,we do get it wrong sometimes,
and that things like Eyewitnessmisidentification, that coerced guilty
pleas, that police and prosecutorialmisconduct are indeed a real thing.
(20:03):
And so Peter and Barry havedone an extraordinary job
in growing the organization.
So it's grown from when it was a lawclinic in Cardozo to now, where we're
an organization of almost 130 people.
We have freed or exoneratedmore than 250 people.
(20:24):
We have passed more than250 transformative laws.
We have changed some of the practicesin forensic science, and we've
advanced a movement for change.
We went from about 160 followers, I think,when we brought on our first digital
engagement person, and she has donean extraordinary job in building that
(20:50):
from 160 to we now have more than fivemillion supporters who would consider
themselves part of the innocence movement.
And on top of that, there are alsomore than 70 organizations around the
country, and a few internationally,that also do innocence work.
So it's been an extraordinarytransformation over the
(21:12):
course of nearly 34 years.
It's an amazing story.
I can imagine, however, that coming intothe chair that you now sit in, I would
just be intimidated for so many reasons.
How did you think about tackling thisjob and how you could use communications
to support this incredible work?
You know, I think the thing also aboutthe Innocence Project that makes it such
(21:36):
an extraordinary organization is theclients, is the freed and exonerated
people who make up the community.
I mean, the stories of their wrongfulconviction, the stories of their freedom
and exoneration are so compelling, andthey are such extraordinary people.
(22:00):
I mean, the, the grace and theresilience of each and every one Of
the people who have been exoneratedand freed by the organization
is, is palpable and overwhelming.
And we have the enormous privilegeand responsibility for telling their
(22:22):
stories and telling them in waysthat are authentic and respectful and
that can move the needle on change.
And the fact that they allow usto do that and that they are part
of it and they are so engaged andinvolved in the organization is
an extraordinary bonus for us.
When we go into a state house andwe want to challenge a bill or
(22:48):
speak to a bill, here's an example.
In New Hampshire, there was amovement to try to reinstate the
death penalty And we went with oneof our clients from Florida- Mm
a wonderful man called Paul Hildwin,who faced the death penalty,
who had his last meal, and waseventually freed and found innocent.
(23:12):
And to be that close to death and tobe prepared to use your voice to try
to change the laws, the practices, theprotocols in this country is incredibly
brave and generous, and it allows usto tell really powerful stories, to
(23:35):
be a really powerful force for change.
As you said, the concept of innocencehas- Mm … has shifted, or the
understanding that the criminal systemhas flaws, that it has weaknesses that
need to be addressed in order to makeit fairer and better, and that it,
it feels to me like there has been ashift in consciousness in this country.
(23:57):
Not completely, but it is moving, inwhich we understand that these systems are
imperfect and they need to be made better.
And I would say that InnocenceProject has played a really important
role in shifting a norm like that.
It seems to me that if you can shiftthe norm around something as fundamental
as innocence and guilt, and franklychange m- people's minds around the
(24:20):
death penalty because they understandthat it is not being applied equally or-
Mm
justly, that you could shiftthe norms around lots of stuff.
Ha- have you thought about that, andhave you thought about working with
people in other maybe related fieldsabout what this process of consciousness
changing in this country can offer?
That is such a good question, and Iwill say that, you know, my current ED,
(24:44):
Christina Swarns, who is an extraordinaryleader and lawyer who was part of a very
famous Supreme Court case, uh, whichwas around Duane Buck, has said many
times that the Innocence Project isthe most transformative criminal legal
(25:07):
reform organization in the country.
And she says that because that conceptof innocence and the fallibility
of the law has been made so clearby the organization, and that,
she says, has been transformative.
We have an enormous advantage, asI said, because we have the lived
(25:28):
experiences of clients of the freedand exonerated community who give so
generously of their time to make surethat we lessen the possibility of this
happening to anybody else, and that wetry to transform the systems that allow
for these sorts of things to happen.
(25:50):
And belonging to the communicationsnetwork is part of that, of
being able to share experience.
I mean, we have lots to learn fromother organizations, just as I'm
sure we have things that we canshare and teach other organizations.
But, you know, part of, part of it goesback to what you were talking about
earlier, you know, the power of story.
(26:11):
The power of being able to tell storiesthat will move hearts and minds.
The power of being able to find thethings that will resonate with people.
I think in our case, we arevery clear about our mission.
We are not a criminal legal reformorganization ad nauseam, although
(26:34):
much of the work that we do willhave impact on the system overall.
Everything we do, every sentenceends with wrongful conviction.
Mm-hmm.
And we're very clear about that.
And that is an important lesson fororganizations as well, is being able
to see where there can be sharingof knowledge and impact and tactics
(26:56):
and ideas and all of those things,and also recognizing when it is
important for you to keep to your lane.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
I, I just think that's a real fundamental.
I also saw the work ofyour executive director.
It was made into a Broadway play with-
Yes
… no less than Adrien Brody and Tessa Thompson.
(27:17):
And as someone who grew up in the theater,I understand the power of theater, but
I would never think that if, as the headof comms of a nonprofit organization,
that your work would end up on Broadway.
Yeah.
And to see actors dealing withyour issues and an audience live
experiencing them, that must be suchan interesting and cool experience.
(27:38):
Has there been anything special thatcame out of that experience that has
helped you or think about your job ortelling stories or anything at all?
Oh my God, there's so much, Eric,so much that's special about that.
But I want to correct one thing inthat- This is a play, The Fear of
13 is a play about Nick Yarris, uh,who was on death row in Pennsylvania
(28:00):
and was exonerated with DNA.
He was a client of Christina Swarnswhen she was in a different role,
not as part of the Innocence Project.
So even though he is partof the Innocence- Right
movement, it wasn't directlya client of ours, but- Y-
your disclaimers are noted.
(28:22):
But it was such an extraordinaryplay, and we, we were invited to
partner with them, which was awonderful privilege and honor for us.
We did a talk back with AdrienBrody and Tessa Thompson.
We were able to introduce a, awonderful freed and exonerated
client called Tamaine Hicks, andTamaine is also a budding playwright.
(28:47):
And in fact, you can hear about Tamaine's,uh, playwriting history while he was
wrongfully incarcerated in Pennsylvaniaon Stories of Freedom, which is a project
that we did together with StoryCorps.
And, uh, Tamaine is talking with hislawyer, Karen Thompson, about his
playwriting while he was incarcerated.
(29:09):
But he was able to then meet with LindsayFerrentino, who wrote the play Fear of 13,
so they've got a partnership going there.
We were able to invite others inour freed and exonerated community
to come and watch the play as well.
It has just been an extraordinarypartnership, and wonderful to see
(29:32):
this sort of work out there in popularculture being understood to audiences
who may not have been exposed to wrongfulconviction and what it looks like.
And it was a remarkable experience for usall, and it is a gift that kept on giving.
(29:52):
There were posts every- I mean, I don'tknow if you followed the social media,
but man, it was everywhere all the time.
I, I guess the lesson I take away fromthat is that you never know where the
water's gonna flow from your work.
Yeah.
And I just think that thatis really fun and cool.
I'm not telling everybody they should goout and write a play about their work.
Other than that, what I am th-saying is that you never know
(30:13):
what cool thing is gonna happen.
Yeah.
Good.
Oh, so okay, I'm gonna shift gearsa little bit in the last couple
of minutes that we have left.
I'm thinking about your work and howmuch progress you have made, and then
I look at, I pick up the newspaperand I think, "Oh my God. Are we in
for a bumpy, bumpy ride?" It feelsto me like up is down these days.
How are you managing the current politicalclimate, the s- current social climate,
(30:37):
the deep challenges and divisions that wefeel are getting exacerbated these days?
How do you, how do you turn thatinto something positive or how do you
figure out how to navigate that inorder to be successful in your work?
I think it goes back to whatI said before, in part, is
really being mission-focused.
You know, we are very clearabout what our mission is, what
(30:58):
is the lane in which we operate.
We worry about due process.
We worry about funding for theprograms that we think are really
important to furthering innocencework throughout the country.
And that said, that is on a federal level.
The majority of the work that wedo really is on a state level,
(31:22):
and there it is different, andit is changing all the time.
And we know that with our legislativeprograms, for example, that you may
be working over various years oflegislative sessions and the like.
But we really try to ensure thatwe are always keeping in sight that
(31:42):
mission of wrongful conviction, ofrestoring freedom, of transforming
systems, and of building a movement.
And so we are incredibly clear andthoughtful about what are the areas
that we are going to lean into.
And we can't do everything.
We would love to do everythingand have that magic wand- … to
(32:04):
kinda change it all up.
But much of the work that we dois dictated by the cases that we
take on, the areas, the states,the constituencies, the courts, the
legislatures in which we are working.
And we are always, as the communicationsteam, we are always there trying to build
(32:27):
that movement, to grow the support basefor all that we do, to get people to give
us their phone numbers so that we can getthem to call legislators when they need
to, to get them to participate in all ofthe campaigns that we're running across
all of our various platforms and systems.
It's extraordinary work, and justso impressed, and I'm so happy
(32:51):
for you that you get to do this.
And I'm really grateful that you wereable to come on and talk to us about this.
Fiona Guthrie, thank you sovery much for your work and
for coming and talking to us.
It was such a pleasure.
I'm sure that you know I'm a hugeevangelist for communications, and
I love this work, every piece of it.
(33:12):
Sometimes it's really hard, butthe successes and the joy when we
manage to win, when we are able tofree or exonerate someone who's been
incarcerated for decades wrongfully,lost all of that time in their
life, it's an extraordinary moment.
Well, you are doingthe work of the angels.
(33:32):
Thank you again, Fiona.
And we're back.
So can we start?
That little intro, Eric,you gave was so good.
You're getting really good at that.
Yeah, am I?
Yeah, and I just, Ihave one request, which
I want all of our guests to have Fiona'saccent, 'cause man, it's a good accent.
Lordy, that was great
You know, I'm sure she'sheard it more than once.
(33:52):
So walk me through the arc here,because Fiona starts in journalism
and then moves through a majorfoundation, the Ford Foundation, and
then comes to the Innocence Project.
And so often, this is part ofthe story of the folks that come
on this podcast, they have thatoriginal grounding in journalism.
And I love that introductoryquestion you asked.
(34:12):
Yeah.
Where's the story?
How do you find the essence of the story?
And law is so much about framing.
It's about framing the problem at hand.
So it's so inherently inthe communication space.
Yep.
And yet, how do we secure justice?
How do we move fromwrongful guilt to innocence?
You've gotta be able totell the story correctly.
I love Fiona's reaction to yourquestion because it is the most salient
and yet most difficult to answerquestion that any of us could face,
(34:34):
which is like, where's the story?
How do I know there's a story here?
And how do I surfaceit in a meaningful way?
But that's it.
She starts with that journalismbackground, gives us that great backstory
for how that all unfolded, and yet at theheart of this is like, what's the story?
How can that story changeworlds and change lives?
It's interesting.
You know, I always wanted to be a lawyer.
I even took the LSAT and I wantedto go to law school, but I didn't-
(34:55):
Really?
Yeah.
I didn't do very well on theLSAT, and so I didn't get into a
particularly good l- law school, soI- … decided not to go into the law.
But I love lawyer things.
I love legal thrillers.
I love all of it.
And they say that the evidence isgreat, but the lawyer who wins at trial
is the one who tells a better story.
Yes.
(35:15):
Yes.
So that's at the top of my mind.
The other thing is that people who endup in this profession, who end up in
communications, philanthropy, whatever,they come from lots of different places.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of them do come from journalism.
I don't wonder why, because again,you're, you're writing a story.
You're trying to boil something down intosomething that people can understand,
that can move them to action, that canmove them to tears, that can move them
(35:39):
to donating money, all of that stuff.
So we're trying to connect withpeople emotionally, and we're trying
to connect with their intellect.
And Fiona has this wonderful-Yeah … background.
Right, right.
She did radio.
She did drive time radio.
She was on chat shows.
Uh, sh- then she went on intothe news and she covered 9/11.
(36:00):
So having that incredible body of workbefore you allows you to call upon
these various skills and talents andexperiences that you've had over time.
And for her to be able to take all of thatand roll it up and use it- Yeah … at
the Innocence Project to get peopleoff death row, to get people out of
(36:21):
prison who were unjustly incarcerated.
And needless to say, many of thesepeople, if not most of these people,
were most likely unjustly incarceratedbecause of their social status- Yeah
the color of their skin,their ethnic or their racial
background, that sort of thing.
So there's so much injustice outthere, and to be able to redress that-
(36:43):
Yeah
… feels to me like one of the great, great gifts That a person can do.
And that's why this work is soimportant, and that's why it's
so exciting to talk to her.
And this is where we have all theesteem for our former journalist
colleagues, because to move fromjournalism to then go to the Ford
Foundation, don't know if you'veheard of it, pretty cool institution.
Pretty important organization.
(37:04):
And, and that's a toughtransition for Fiona, right?
It's, it's like- Yes
it's like you get to goto the Ford Foundation.
It's like, yeah, I know, but man,I, I, I hate leaving that behind.
But yet you get to bring that s-so much good from the platform
of the Ford Foundation, too.
Well, the Ford Foundation isa really interesting place.
Obviously, they had a famousCEO in Darren Walker- Mm-hmm
(37:26):
for most of the timethat Fiona was at Ford.
It is this august institutionwith a long, long history, lots
of money, and lots of influence.
But at the same time, it's philanthropy-… which, you know, you are one step
removed from the so-called actual work.
Yeah.
And so going from being a reportercovering 9/11, and then she went to work
(37:47):
at the Australian Mission to the UN- Mm
which is its own separate kind of weird,crazy thing, to working at the Ford
Foundation, it is, it's interesting.
Yeah.
And I, I think there's some cultureshock that probably occurs when you
go to Ford, not the least of whichis all those free beverages- Well,
you do it
… in the refrigerator.
(38:08):
And the lunch.
And it's a pretty building,and you got a nice office.
It is a different- How
do you-
You know.
How do you work for-
Toto.
Oh, man.
How do you, how do you-
We're not at BBC anymore.
How do you work for a major foundation andnot immediately double your body weight?
That, that part of the org said there'sfood and drink available at all times.
At, at the
very least, y- you becomeastonishingly hydrated.
(38:35):
Right.
There are no-
Like, and a littlecaffeinated, I have to say
… no issues with the electrolytes.
Well, so, and so, so here, here's theheart, too, and you guys just went by this
very quickly, but I thought it was such agood little insight into this transition.
Because part of what Fiona does atFord is says, "You know, you wanna
call me the director of content, andI wanna be the director of story.
(38:56):
In fact, I am the director ofstory." And I, I love that little
acknowledgement, and it's so funny.
Those two words, content versusstory, are so transformative.
You know, think about that.
What carries content?
You know?
It's, like, such a- Yeah … it'ssuch a dead, such an inactive, and
yet it's actually such an aproposword for kind of a sensibility, I
think, at times about our field.
(39:17):
It's like, well, just,just plug into our content.
This is all you need.
Take our content, right?
It's like, no, actually- Right … weneed to fly on the wings of story.
So, so within Ford, Fiona's like, "Hey,we've gotta think about this differently
and more impactfully." I've… And,and so she does not actually leave
her journalism bona fides at the door.
She says, "I'm gonna bringthis right in with me when
I'm doing all this work here."
(39:37):
Yeah.
Director of content is kindof like director of stuff.
Right?
It's like all the things we have,
you know?
And director of story islike director of music.
I don't know.
But then- Moving to the Innocence Project.
And before we get into some ofthe specifics about how Fiona
has addressed that, I do wanna…
You know, Fiona did itin such passing so well.
(40:00):
Talked about the impact, and that'swhy I brought it up in the intro.
They haven't just freed people, butthey've changed laws- Right … they've
changed practices, and they've createdthis movement with all these supporters.
And how many of our nonprofits areactually trying to work across that
depth and breadth of outcomes, right?
So it's not even just I'm doingthe work to advance this mission,
whatever that looks like, but whenyou look at how that gets expressed,
(40:23):
it's always gonna be expressed inthese very different dimensions
in terms of how things sort out.
Like, the communications that gobeyond advancing law and policy are
very different than what it takes toactually support all the work that goes
around to establishing innocence, tochanging practices at forensic sites.
Who even knows what that looks like?
But I can imagine, but I can imaginethat looks a little bit different than
actually the work you need to do tobuild an actual place-based movement
(40:45):
of over five million supporters.
So to me, that's another part of this.
The dimensions of the work here isthink about the depth and breadth
of just all the domains that Fionais working across and all of her
colleagues at the Innocence Project.
I just love that it works, thatthey have the ambition to do
it, but that it actually works,that they can pull that off.
Well, it's very interesting in thatshe said a lot of what we do is stay
(41:06):
to our lane- Yes … by focusingvery specifically on people who were
incorrectly incarcerated- Yeah … andwe can prove that they're innocent.
And just by doing that, it opens upthe opportunities for lots of other
people to say, "Hey, wait a minute.
Let's look at this so-calledcriminal justice system.
(41:27):
Let's look at who we're incarceratingwithout the evidence that these people
have actually committed a crime.
What does that say about us?
What does it say about us as a community?
What does it say about our systems?"And a lot of other folks are
asking those questions, and they'reproviding the jumping-off point by
just focusing on these people who areinnocent and deserve to walk free.
(41:48):
And that is creating this much broader,incredibly powerful movement that is a
reminder to folks doing all kinds of work,what can I be very specific about that
makes space to build something bigger?
Yeah, and to st- stay within your lane.
And then to me, this is the echo inthe mirror from Fiona's own journey.
(42:08):
So think about this transition and rolesfrom journalist to major foundation
leader and story to now working on thisseminal work around the Innocence Project.
But the concept of identity andall the different identities that
Fiona has worked through in Fiona'scareer and then thinking about that.
Now you're talking aboutyour identity is a criminal.
Your identity is you are convicted.
(42:31):
And Fiona's saying, "You know,actually," and her colleagues,
"No, actually, that's not true.
This is, there's a different story.
We have to capture a differentidentity for this person." And, and I
was thinking as Fiona was talking, Iwas like, wow, how often Our work is
involved in this notion of identity.
Hmm.
You know, we've had so many of ourguests come on and talk about the
language we use to- Right … establishcertain kinds of identity.
(42:52):
It's so unfair.
It so hollows people out.
So you were talking with Fiona about ifyou can do this in this way, you should
be able to do it all these different ways.
So I'm like, just thislanguage about identity- Yeah
just this storytelling about you havea different identity, that what, what's
being said about you is not true.
To me, that's the part that's just souniversally relevant for all the work
we're doing across all of our spaces.
(43:14):
And so again, the graciousness of Fiona tocome on and talk about it, it was really,
really cool and exciting to hear about.
Yeah, and as, as you're saying this, I wasthinking, well folks, if you're listening
to this and this is interesting, goback and listen to the Trebien Shorters-
Yes
… ep- episodes- Yes … 'cause he, he talks about that all the time.
Uh, you know, we talk about kidswho are at-risk youth instead of
kids who would like to get a job.
(43:34):
Thank you very much.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, no, we, we, we had ourcolleague on who was talking
about their work with what?
The homeless or the unhoused.
Right.
You know what I mean?
Like, like, so, so often ourlanguage is jumping around.
Like people who deservea nice place to live.
L-
let's face it, though, the real reasonthat Fiona was on this podcast is because
you're trying to get your in- yourselfinserted into that Broadway play.
(43:55):
I totally know what's going on here.
It's so obvious.
I d- I don't think
that's gonna happen.
You were so jealous.
You were so wishing.
But talk about depth of breath, right?
And obviously Fiona was very clearabout whose story that represents and
whose worth it represents, but therange of this work is so relevant.
It reaches all the way out ina very poignant way and touches
people on the Broadway stage.
(44:16):
So again, you, to have somebody whocould be in that chief communications
officer role for an organizationworking across this many different
places, you'd have to have somebodywith Fiona's gifts and talents, right?
Yeah.
Like, it's just so, it's so clear.
It's so obvious.
It's such a great career, andthe work she does is so important
and delightful in so many ways.
It was a great opportunity to chat withher and to hear more about her work.
(44:39):
You've known Fiona a long time.
Uh, where does the gracefulnessand the graciousness come from?
Because these are hard beats.
It's tough to be a journalist.
It's tough to actually do foundationphilanthropy work at scale, you know?
It's tough to actually workin the front lines of helping
overturn wrongful convictions.
W- is that just, is that teachable, or isthat just, is that, you just get lucky?
(45:00):
Fiona just got lucky.
Is that it?
I think we all have to remindourselves to be gracious.
But, and, you know, shecomes from central Australia.
You think you're hot?
She comes from hard scrabble stuff.
Maybe.
And so, you know, you andyour Marin County hot heat.
Ha ha
ha.
Maybe, maybe that's the answer.
(45:21):
Maybe it's that originstory that has some…
You run into some conflict in someway as part of your origin story.
Yeah.
That's actually thething that comes through.
Well, Eric, is there anythingelse about the Innocence Project
we should be talking about?
'Cause it was a really cool conversation.
There's so many differentdirections we could take it, but- Oh
Fiona Guthrie, my goodness.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Oh, the one thing that I will say isthat she referenced, I think it was
StoryCorps work- Hmm … which we'll put,we'll put into the episode description.
(45:43):
That's great.
Yep.
And StoryCorps, another great organizationthat's been doing such seminal work.
Well, so thank you so much, Eric.
So that was Fiona Guthrie, thechief communications officer
from the Innocence Project.
Thank you so much for joining us on Let'sHear It, and stay cool wherever you are.
Stay gracious wherever you are.
Thank you, everybody.
Okay, everybody, that'sit for this episode.
(46:04):
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAllea, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music.
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation.
And please check out Lumina'sterrific podcast, Today's Students,
Tomorrow's Talent, and you canfind that at luminafoundation.org.
(46:26):
We certainly thank today'sguest, and of course, all of you.
And most importantly,thank you, Mr. Brown.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Okay, everybody.
Till next time
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