February 24, 2026 • 48 mins
There's a question Rashad Robinson wants every nonprofit and foundation leader to sit with right now: Are you building power — or just showing up?
Rashad spent 13 years leading Color of Change, co-founded the Fight Back Table, forced over 100 corporations to leave ALEC — the American Legislative Exchange Council, a powerful corporate-backed group that shapes conservative state legislation — and took on Facebook in one of the largest boycotts in American history. Now he's channeling all of that hard-won wisdom into a newsletter, a new show on News One, work alongside Jane Fonda defending the First Amendment — and a book, From Presence to Power: How to Take on the Fights That Matter and Win, dropping July 28th from One World/Penguin Random House.
Eric sits down with Rashad for a wide-ranging conversation about what it actually takes to win: the difference between a dialogue and a negotiation, why visibility is only the beginning, what Bad Bunny's Super Bowl performance means for the movement, and how to fight fatigue when you're running on empty but can't stop.
This one's got joy, strategy, and only a few references to the New York Mets.
Listen now — and if Rashad's clarity and energy give you something to hold onto, please follow, rate, and review Let's Hear It wherever you get your podcasts.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kirk (00:00):
Welcome to, let's Hear It.
Eric (00:01):
Let's Hear.
It is a podcast for and about thefield of foundation and nonprofit
communications produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No relation.
Kirk (00:12):
Well said Eric.
And I'm Kirk.
Eric (00:14):
And I'm Eric.
Let's hear.
It is sponsored by the Kenneth RaininFoundation, which enhances quality
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(00:35):
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Kirk (00:43):
You can find, let's hear it on any podcast subscription platform.
Eric (00:46):
You can find us online at, let's hear@cast.com.
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Speaker 3 (00:53):
Apple Podcasts so that more people can find us.
Let's get onto the show.
Kirk (00:58):
So there's a blizzard hitting most of the United States right now, is there
now, but I'm, I'm, I've never been happierto be in the Bay Area than I am right now.
Eric (01:04):
Do not gloat.
Kirk (01:05):
The type of countrys covered under snow,
Eric (01:07):
it's root to gloat.
And you as a mid-westerner, asone of those nice islands, you,
you should know not to gloat.
Kirk (01:13):
Well, let's extend from the warm confines, the relatively warm
confines of the San Francisco Bay area.
Mighty, welcome in to everybodywho's coming back to, let's hear it.
Eric (01:20):
Welcome in.
Kirk (01:22):
See there are welcome.
You found us.
There's a really importantword we're about to hear.
I wonder if you can guess thatI think is the most important
Eric (01:28):
word.
Just one word.
Remember, we're gonna, you're gonna listento whatever an hour with of, of, of stuff.
A very important 30 minuteconversation with Rashad Robinson and
then 20 minutes of, of blah, blah.
But there's gonna be one wordyou're gonna have to listen to.
Kirk (01:42):
That word is win
Eric (01:45):
a win.
Oh,
Kirk (01:46):
Rashad Robinson knows how to win, and I think that is awesome.
I'm so glad you guyshad this conversation.
Talk about it.
We have much to discuss when we come back,but Rashad Robinson knows how to win and
I couldn't thank him enough for that.
By
Eric (02:02):
the way, Rashad Robinson is.
A joyful, amazingly powerful, sucha cool person to talk to right now.
The timing could not be better.
He is the former head of Color ofChange, the largest online racial
justice organization in the country.
He has, he co-founded the Fight backtable, which was one of the largest
(02:25):
progressive coalitions in the us.
He has this new newsletternow called How We Win.
There's that word win.
Kirk (02:31):
There it is.
Eric (02:31):
He has a show on news, one called Freedom Table.
Uh, what else?
He's, uh, he's a co-chair of thesteering committee for the committee
on the First Amendment workingalongside none other than Jane Fonda.
Uh, and he has a book coming out calledFrom Presence to Power, how to Take
On the Fights That Matter and Win.
There Goes that word again.
(02:52):
Yeah.
Coming from One WorldPenguin Random House in July.
Rashad is everywhere and alwayshe's incredibly interesting.
And we had this conversation rightafter the Super Bowl, so we got
a little bit of bad bunny talk
Rashad (03:05):
Yeah.
Eric (03:06):
In there.
Right.
And I, you know, I was, I was reallyexcited to talk to him and, and, uh, yeah.
That, that's what we did.
Kirk (03:13):
Yeah.
Les mentioned from presence to power.
Again, it's his book that'scoming out in July 28th.
You can pre-order it now fromall the places you order though.
And by the way, buy it someplace local,which we, we would support that as well.
Rashad Robinson.
What a great conversation.
So let's listen to Rashad and Eric andlet's hear it, and then we'll be back.
Eric (03:32):
Rashad Robinson has spent his career proving an essential truth.
That visibility for yourissue is only the beginning.
You have to turn that into powerto bring about lasting change.
And at a moment when so manyorganizations, too many are hunkering
down and hoping that the storm passes,Rashad Robinson is asking the question.
This entire sector needs to sit with.
(03:53):
Are you building power?
Rashad Robinson.
You are a civil rights leader,a change maker, and you are
single handedly keeping the HaberDashers in New York and business.
Thank you very, very muchfor coming on the show.
Rashad (04:08):
Ah, thanks for having me.
It's great to be with you.
Eric (04:10):
One of my favorite things about you are the lids.
You have some amazing hats.
So I gotta,
Rashad (04:15):
I really do.
I love, I love a, I lovea good fedora bucket hat.
I love, I love, I love to connect the,the hat with the rest of the style.
So it's, it's, it's always a,a, a fun way to express myself.
Eric (04:28):
Well, you know, I've got a whole long list of questions here and
I just chucked them out the window.
'cause I just wanna start withyour essence, your personality.
You were a. You know, you're a, like,I don't know what a happy warrior or
something, maybe warrior's, not theword, but you just seem to bring this
life and joy and love to your work.
Mm-hmm.
How, how did that happen?
Rashad (04:48):
You know, I, I feel like I wake up in the morning.
You see so many things thatjust aren't right that you wanna
change, and, and I couldn't imaginenot having the opportunity to
actually do something about it.
So as much as like you internalizethe pain, I feel blessed to be able
to be in service and be engaged.
(05:09):
And I grew up in a family of peoplewho kind of simultaneously met.
The sort of work of trying to maketheir lives better and our community
better around us with living.
Recognizing that, you know, we don't,we only have so much time here.
It's, it's unpromised.
It could end tomorrow.
And so in, in these moments, wewanna do everything we can to both
(05:34):
try to be of service, try to be ofvalue, try to be of use, but also
like to have some joy along the way.
I often talk about.
Joy through the lens of racial justice.
I talk about black joy.
And black joy is not the absenceof pain, but it's the presence
of aspiration, the presence ofpossibility, the presence of hope, and
that's how I think about sort of joy.
(05:55):
And I try to bring joy to my work.
No one wants to fight to get to a bettertomorrow if they feel like getting there
with you is only gonna feel the same.
Eric (06:03):
Well that, that joy permeates everything about Jews.
Why I've been so excited abouthaving this conversation.
'cause we're in a, a tough time andyou bring something special to it.
We met when I interviewed you foranother project and we discovered
speaking of suffering a mutual un, anunfortunate love for the New York Mets.
And so I, I already, I already knewthat we, that we were gonna have some
(06:25):
kind of conne connection that way.
And obviously your work at Colorof Change has been so important.
And what's your life beenlike since your days there?
You, you're into a new thing.
Rashad (06:36):
Yeah, no, so, you know, a couple of things that have been really focused,
you know, there was like this piece of myjob at Color of Change that 30% of my time
maybe where I kind of played this role of.
Chief Strategy Officer, I kind ofput quotation marks around it where
oftentimes, whether it was throughthe work that I was doing where I was
trying to model innovation or modelnew ways of doing things, or I was
(06:58):
just deeply engaged with a range ofactivists, I helped to found something.
I was the co co-founders and they calledthe fight back table, which is one
of the largest progressive coalitionsthat it still exists today and.
I co-founded that after the 2016 electionas a way for progressive organizations
that weren't gonna negotiate andrecognize the real threat of the Trump
(07:22):
administration and where we were heading,and recognize that we had to have a, a
center of gravity for those that wanted tofight and recognize that this wasn't the
same type of administrative change thatwe've seen in other ways where it's like.
George W. Bush may haverepresented a change candidate.
Donald Trump represented a change therules candidate, and changing the rules
(07:44):
is a different type of way to think abouthow power is used and how we engage.
And so that sort of.
Way of thinking and being able to buildframeworks is very much now at the
center of a lot of the work I get to do.
So I, I have sort of a whole practiceof helping movement organizations
really think about power andnarrative and culture change.
(08:05):
I have a set of media projects.
That I work on, ranging from a podcastthat's being launched with Courier
this spring to a, a work I do withNews One, which is one of the largest
black media outlets, a a project calledFreedom Table, which we bring together
conversations that are sometimes tough forinteresting and have family conversations.
(08:26):
A book with Random Housethat comes out July 28th.
Okay.
But it's up on bookshop and, and you're.
And you can get it at the Random PenguinRandom House website and any other places,
I think online where you buy books.
Although try to find someplace local andit's called From Presence to Power, how
to take on the fights that matter and win.
(08:48):
And so both in moving this bookout in the world, moving these
media projects, doing work.
Across movements.
Working very closely right now withJane Fonda and the committee on the
First Amendment, um, which I helped.
I'm helping as the co-chair ofthe steering committee, but also
working really closely with Jane asshe's doing everything she can to
(09:08):
organize this pillar of Hollywood.
Creatives and a-listers to speak upagainst authoritarianism, challenge
their industry and also reach more peoplearound the country about the threat.
So I guess suffice it to say, you know,I've been taking some time off and
resting and relaxing, if that, yes.
Eric (09:30):
Well, this moment.
It feels to me like it, your careeris coming together into this set of
tools and these set of activitiesthat is kind of coalescing.
Can you take us backto the, the beginning?
You were an organizer with Gladyou did media advocacy there.
Can you talk about what you learned alongthe way that brought you to this point?
Rashad (09:51):
Yeah, I learned a lot of things.
So the first protest that I ever ledwas in high school it was, it was a
local pharmacy, Rite Aid, but it was,you know, it wasn't a local pharmacy.
It was our local Rite Aidthat out in Riverhead.
Long Island, New York, andso I grew up the last exit on
the Long Island Expressway.
Whoa.
My family, my family got therethrough the great migration, the
(10:12):
farm fields of Virginia to thefarm fields of Eastern Long Island.
You know, I was grew up in a familythat, you know, didn't have the college
experience, but were very connectedto community and connected to a.
Activism and were part of the local naacpand, and you know, there was something
that didn't feel right about a decisionthey made to ban young people from
(10:35):
being able to enter during lunchtime.
And I organized a protest and,you know, built a press release.
'cause I was in this class aboutcommunications in high school.
All of that to say, I endedup on page two of, of Newsday.
Eric (10:50):
Whoa.
Rashad (10:50):
And, and on all of the, all of the local New York affiliates.
And so if you're on Long Island, you'repart of the New York media market.
And so getting into like WABC and WNBCmeans that the story travels much quicker.
So I became this young activist.
I had a local public access talkshow where we talk about issues and I
(11:11):
learned very quickly sort of what itmeant to actually be able to force.
Institutions to do thingsthat they don't wanna do.
Right.
My first answer from that RiteAid store when I, when I reached
out, was to kick rocks, right?
But we built up enough energy,we got enough media involved, and
we forced them to change their.
(11:31):
Decision.
And so there's always been this piecefrom very early on about understanding
how do you force institutions tobe nervous about disappointing you?
How do you force them to have tolisten to you when they don't wanna
listen to you to consider your demands?
And those that has very bitchbeen at the par heart of it.
(11:51):
And then I've.
Always been attracted to issuesthat I had some sort of connection
to through my family or personally.
So whether it was working on felonies,disenfranchisement, and the right to
vote for people with felony convictions,which is both a story of political
power for that individual, but alsoa story of political voice for.
(12:12):
Families that are part of that impactworking, going to glad In 2005, at
the height of right after all thoseanti-gay ballot measures passed in
2004, and they said that the LGBTmovement was part of Kerry's loss.
Eric (12:29):
Right.
Rashad (12:29):
And what that meant over the next several years where we saw such
a tremendous change in working really.
To force those pillars of entertainmentand news to shift their coverage, right?
What you could say and what youcould print and, and how you could
portray gay and lesbian people.
In 2005, when I got there, itlooked very different in 2011.
(12:51):
So across all of that, I'velearned a lot about power.
I've learned a lot about story, and I'velearned a lot about the role of people and
strategy in actually making that possible.
Eric (13:02):
Well, I used to deliver Newsday.
By the way.
Rashad (13:05):
You did?
I did.
Okay.
Yeah.
No, we got Newsday every single Newsday.
You know, getting a Newsday was abig, was a big deal because I grew
up with Newsday was also how you,how you got those Mets box scores.
That's
Eric (13:16):
right.
Rashad (13:17):
Uh, I was around enough during that eighties era of strawberry
and, and, and hojo and everyone.
Where like those were somegood days for the box scores.
Eric (13:26):
Those were good days for the box scores, and I was at Exit 25 on the la
Rashad (13:30):
so.
Okay.
Eric (13:31):
Or
Rashad (13:31):
70 71.
Eric (13:33):
Yeah.
That's far out there.
I, I don't think I've ever been that far.
Rashad (13:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We call that Real Long Island out there.
Eric (13:41):
Well, I'm, I'm so interested in what you're doing now and how
these pieces come together becauseyou have been so well known for.
Advancing narrative, but notjust narrative for its own sake.
And we talk about in thecommunication world, you know, stop
just trying to raise awareness.
You actually have to move people andyou have to, as you said, like make
(14:03):
these large institutions uncomfortablefor not giving you what you need for
not kind of delivering for, for people.
And so you, you've got this newslettercalled How We Win, which I really love.
And again, it's because you comeat it with this kind of joyful.
Optimism in the face of whatmany people feel like is an in,
(14:25):
like an intractable problem.
Freedom table on News one, which youjust launched, I think the first episode
just came out last month in January.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Mm-hmm.
Eric (14:33):
And, and you've got all these people that you bring together who I,
I am learning from and, and now yougot the book from Presence to Power.
Was there something that kind of.
Clicked in your mind that said,here are these components that if
we put them together, we're gonnacreate this body of information and
tools so that others can learn from.
Rashad (14:55):
You know, getting to the point where I'm at right now, I've mostly
thought about the different ways thatpeople take in information, the different
ways that I wanted to have influence,you know, leading color of change.
For 13 years.
I had sort of a, the ability to reach andengage black people and be, and thinking
about the role of black people as bothstrategists, voices, and our democracy.
(15:21):
And so the news, one thing was likeI just wanted to continue to have a
way to reach and engage black folksfor the sake of black folks, but also
understanding that when black people win,the country is oftentimes moving in the
right direction on so many other things.
The, the book was something that I knewthat I wanted to write for a long time.
(15:41):
I think the first time I really knew thatI wanted to find a different way to tell.
Stories, and I don't know if it wasactually the book, but I had just come
off of real success with the campaignto take on the American Legislative
Exchange Council, also known as Alec.
And so ran this campaign thatforced over a hundred corporations
(16:04):
to leave Alec and, and I.
You know, did a lot of media.
I did a lot of work and there were,there were a number of folks in
philanthropy and other places thatdid write-ups on the campaign and
said, we need more of these campaigns.
And they took the write-ups and thenthey went off and funded people to do.
That work and never came backto me or color of change.
(16:27):
And I recognize that tricky dance between,the difference between being boots
on the ground and being a strategistand being able to set strategy.
And in order to set strategy, thereare different things you have to pull
and it sometimes is a lot harder ifyou're a woman, if you're a person
of color, if you are a workingclass, sometimes to be considered.
(16:49):
In those rooms in that way.
But I recognized that I did have tobe able to make legible the work.
I had to, in my own way, createthe frameworks and, and if I wasn't
simultaneously telling the storythrough my own voice, other people
would, they would make sense of it.
And then sometimes oftentimesthey would maybe get.
(17:10):
Key pieces wrong.
And one of the key pieces oftentimesthat folks got wrong around the ALI
campaign was how essential it wasto have an organized constituency
that exists in the world.
Right?
And what I mean by that is havinga black constituency that was
organized enough to force corporationsto do something, it could be.
LGBT.
(17:31):
It could be women, it could, but likenot just a political constituency,
not just people who shared certainvalues, but people who were tied
together by something a bit deeper.
And that was key to being able to forcea company that has a marketing budget
and has to like determine am I losingmarket share in these audiences that will.
(17:54):
Heard my bottom line, especiallyif they're a public facing company
like a McDonald's or a Coca-Cola.
So these pieces really for me, eachcame from sort of a, a desire to
reach key audiences and to be ableto help us get closer to winning the
newsletters for people who are muchmore players on the field who are.
(18:18):
Working in philanthropy and who areworking in movement organizations or
organize and engaged, and I'm reallyrolling out strategy and I'm rolling
out sort of a, a more dispatches versionof that newsletter over the course
of the next couple of weeks that willbe more targeted towards folks who.
(18:39):
Every day seeing what's happeningon the news, seeing what's
happening in the world, and wannabe able to place it in something.
And so I think a lot about audience,I think a lot about helping people
make sense of what's happening.
And I think a lot about how to thengive people the tools to do something.
And so each of these things thatI'm doing is in service of that.
(18:59):
And hopefully, uh, along the way I reachenough people to have the type of impact.
That, that, that matters.
Eric (19:05):
We're gonna take a very quick break, and after the break I'm gonna
ask you about what just happened atLevi's Stadium here in San Francisco
and the cultural moment that BadBunny might have helped to create.
So we'll be right back.
With Rashad Robinson right afterthis, you are listening to, let's
Hear It, a podcast about foundationand nonprofit communications hosted
by Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
(19:28):
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Breakfa Ruleswith Glen Gallic, CEO of the Stubs Ski
Foundation, as he chats with inspiringleaders in philanthropy, government
media, and more about breaking thefake rules that don't work so that
we can build a future that does.
Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now back to the show.
(19:53):
And we're back with Rashad Robinson.
Okay, so the Super Bowljust happened and this.
Conversation that you have about how doyou take cultural moments and bring people
together and create something out of it.
It feels like something justhappened at the Super Bowl, and
I would love your take on it.
Rashad (20:10):
I actually just this morning, wrapped up the final
draft of my newsletter onthis, so I have like, oh good.
My mind, and mostlybecause I'm, I've been.
Thinking a lot about culture andcelebrity and all of these things is how
does it give us permission to believethat we can say more or give us a
kind of a signal about where we're at?
(20:30):
First and foremost, I thoughtwhat bad Buddy did was.
Just so incredibly powerfuland theatrical in many ways.
Like we got like a real theaterin a, in a way that was not always
what you get in a performance.
And it was political in a way that Idon't think we've seen in the Super Bowl
perhaps since maybe Beyonce's performance.
But the last several yearshave been interesting and.
(20:53):
Cool in different ways.
And of course Kendrick was, wasgreat in his own way, but he was not
political in the way that Bad Bunny was.
And so I think it's like areally interesting moment, right?
So I think Bad Bunny didhis job as an artist.
And I think the question now forthe movement is, what is our job?
How do you then use these momentsand leverage these moments to
help people make sense of it?
(21:14):
We know that the right wing is gonna doa whole lot of work to try to reach the
135 million people that watch that and tryto help them make sense of that moment.
That's what they do, and so ourinfrastructure actually has to help people
make sense of it, to translate what itmeans for people, what they should do.
(21:36):
Help people who may have been moved alittle bit, may have not really understood
all the words, but saw the images.
And that type of a, that type ofinfrastructure of sense-making, of
translating, and I don't mean translatingjust in terms of Spanish to English.
I mean translating in terms of the, thecultural critique that's important that
(21:58):
happens online, and that translatesto our conversation so that we have.
Some shared understandingsof what happened.
I think that that is thework that movements do.
Bad Bunny can reach a whole lot morepeople than any immigration group,
any Latino advocacy organization, anyorganization working against corporate
(22:19):
exploitation nor, or sort of, uh, theextraction of wealth and labor and land.
And so he gives us the art.
The politics.
And now I think really the, the workthere is how do we hone those things
into ways that people can understand.
(22:41):
And so it's a mistake for us to think thatlike, oh, people saw it and that's enough.
In fact it's, it's never enough.
The more we take these momentsand the more we exploit them,
the more downstream impact andeven upstream impact it'll have.
Eric (23:00):
Well, your book is called Presence to Power, it sounds like.
Yes.
Bad Bad Bunny was the presence, andnow the organizations that are working
on the issues that he is helpingto shine a light on, have to apply
the power, and you've done this.
Many, many times I'd love to hear aboutthe Facebook campaign because I think that
is a perfect example of presence to power.
Rashad (23:21):
Yeah, the Facebook campaign, right when I first got to Color of
Change back in 2011, our biggestsocial media platform was MySpace.
That's where we had the most activity.
And so over time wegrew a lot of presence.
The goal was to get as manyfollowers on Facebook, you know,
as we built our Facebook presenceand, and get as much reach.
(23:44):
And we got to a point where westarted to see that the rules.
Of Facebook was stacked against us.
Right?
It wasn't enough to justhave more followers on a
system that is unfair, right?
It's like, it's like trying togo into a, a gerrymander district
and try to, and just asking peopleto vote without an understanding
(24:06):
of the power dynamics, right?
And so the underlying power dynamicsof how Facebook worked before we.
Use words like algorithm was startingto face us, but also a lot of rules
around how Facebook did its business.
Right?
And we had these sets of moments whereBlack Lives Matter activists were
getting dox where police interactionswould happen and the police could have,
(24:29):
maybe the Facebook Live turned off inthat moment when Facebook would comply.
And we had some moments wherea young woman was murdered.
And, and the Facebook Live wasturned off because Facebook agreed
to it, and we recognized that asmuch as we were pushing on Facebook,
we weren't having the traction.
And so we had to continue tochange what we were doing.
(24:51):
We got to a moment with Facebookwhere we didn't know if we were.
Being heard, but we found out from theNew York Times that we were, because
they had hired a PR firm called Definers,to place negative stories and attack
pieces on me and the organizationand those attack pieces, we would've
(25:11):
never known that they were coming fromFacebook, had New York Times, not.
Posted, but in that moment,it meant that Facebook had to
engage us in a different way.
So it went from being able to haveconversations with senior level
people in their DC office to actuallymoving to direct negotiations with
Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg.
(25:31):
And that led to a differenttype of engagement.
And this is something I reallyhave learned over the years.
When you're dealing with corporations,it's always important to know
whether or not you're in a dialogue.
Or negotiation.
When you're in a dialogue, they willkeep you talking and you'll be in a
(25:51):
back and forth, and it'll be a nice tohave and they want you there so they
can say that they've talked to you.
If you're in a negotiation,you might actually be able,
Tom move things and win things.
And the corporation's job is to keepyou in a dialogue and your job as an
advocate is to get into a negotiation.
And so part of what I. Learn fromthe Facebook work is really how to
(26:13):
move from dialogue to negotiation.
And when you end up realizing you'renot getting to negotiation, you have
to change your strategies, you haveto up your strategy so you're not
just in presence, but you're in power.
Because power is theability to change the rules.
Sometimes it's written rules,sometimes it's unwritten rules.
And so, you know, wedid, we had to move to.
(26:36):
All sorts of other activities from one ofthe largest boycotts in American history
to a racial equity audit that forcedthem to move to change their policies.
And in the background of allthat Facebook activity we had.
The potential at that point in time forreal regulation on big tech and that
(26:57):
real regulation on big tech was the thingthat Facebook was super worried about.
And so we also had to keep our feetin this moment of Congress and Senate.
I testified before Congress onregulation and each of these
moments saying, you know, Facebookchange your policies and practices.
(27:17):
Congress.
Facebook won't change their policiesand practices, but along the way,
trying to win as much as possible.
Ultimately, we know where we'reat with big tech right now, right?
I think we've learned, you know, howmuch power and money they're willing
to put in the, in along the way.
We once of things, I don't think.
The 2020 election would've went the waywe wanted to go had we not won the type
(27:38):
of real victories in terms of contentmoderation, in terms of how political
ads were engaged in terms of all of that.
But ultimately, it is a storyof presence of power, and it is
ultimately a story of the need for.
Regulation.
Our cars are not safe because of thebenevolence of the auto industry.
Our food is not safe because of big Ag.
(28:00):
It's safe because there have beenadvocates and there have been campaigns,
and now there is infrastructure thatholds those corporations accountable
and creates real consequenceswhen they harm and hurt us.
Eric (28:12):
We talked a little bit about this earlier, but you, you've written
powerfully about the danger of fatigue.
In this moment and the temptation tobelieve that what's happening is normal
to, you know, to normalize the crazy, alot of our listeners are in the trenches.
They're working day to day on thiskind of work, and they're getting
exhausted if they're, if, if they'renot already completely burned out.
(28:36):
How do you tell peoplewho are running on empty?
What do you, what do you say to them?
Uh, when they're, theythey know they can't stop.
Rashad (28:44):
Yeah.
I, I always tell people like.
You gotta put your oxygen mashon and you gotta like, you
gotta, you gotta take a breath.
But there are people who have been in muchworse situations than we are in right now.
And they found it within themselves tocontinue to push and continue to fight.
(29:07):
And so what I, I know is that maybe if youcan't do the thing that you're doing right
now, the same way, maybe there's anotherway for you to contribute, but find
the ways to contribute in this moment.
But I, I, I understand.
I understand fatigue.
There have definitely beentimes where I've been tired.
But I also, like I started off thisinterview, I simply just don't know what
(29:32):
I would be doing or how I would be ableto make sense of my life if I woke up
and saw everything that was happeningand I was not using every bit of myself
to do what I can to right the wrongs.
Y
Eric (29:46):
your newsletter is called How We Win.
So I wanna ask you this, would you pointto one or two things in the next year or
so and say that's what winning looks like?
Rashad (29:58):
I think the incredible bravery and organizing that's happening on the ground
in Minneapolis and, and it is a result ofyears of collaborative work between folks.
As someone who's supported and engagedsome of the work in Minneapolis over
the years, who was part of electingMary Moriarty, the district attorney,
and kicking the old DA who wouldn't.
(30:19):
Engaged right after the murder of GeorgeFloyd and has supported and collaborated
with many of the groups on the ground.
I just continue to be impressedby what they've built.
You know, people talk about themiddle of the country and all of
that stuff, and the heartland, andthis is the middle of the country.
This is the heartland, and it speaksto the power of infrastructure,
(30:41):
of building infrastructure, ofcommunities working together.
Of what is possible.
And I think that that is onething that I think is possible.
We already talked about Bad Bunny and Ido wanna mention what he did in Puerto
Rico, and I think it is a example forso many of, uh, the celebrities and
(31:02):
talent that we work with, that we love,that we support, that we celebrate.
And so the work that I'm doingright now with Jane Fonda, who's.
88 years old and has more energy thananyone I know, but has such a clear.
Focus and analysis both about wherewe're at and where we're going.
(31:24):
And I was with Jade in LA the um, theday that Don Lemon was arrested in LA
And you know, I reached out to her thatmorning and she was like, oh, well I guess
we're gonna go down to the courthouse.
And I said, I guess we are.
And we went down to the courthouse.
But I remember later that day, the two ofus went on to Don's platform, Don's show,
(31:47):
to talk about the committee for the Firstamendment, protecting the First amendment,
protest, speech, all these things.
And, and Janna's always soclear about the threats.
Authoritarianism, but also the factthat while this is new for white
people, it's not new for black peopleand black people in this country.
(32:07):
Black people particularly in theSouth, but all through the country
in major cities, you know, likeBoston, you know, you the have faced
a type of authoritarianism and sothere's a lot to learn from the
knowledge that exists in our own.
Country and in our own space, and I thinklike when Jane both rightfully invites
(32:32):
people into the work, but also callsout where we've already been and what
we already know, I think it's such animportant piece of the work that needs
to happen because we, we have to both.
Understand the strategy moving forward,but we have to be clear-eyed about the
history and that this is not the firsttime we've been here as a country.
(32:53):
This is not like this has never happened.
There are roots here that exist.
We live in a country where we have a,literally the first black mayor in some
towns in the south that were lockedout of their offices in this decade.
We know that there are all sorts ofways in which without people organized,
(33:13):
willing to fight and willing to push thesesystems, rely on people and it, these
systems will fail because people fail andwe have to be the people that don't fail.
And so when I think about Minneapolis,but I also think about the people who
have power and platform, whether theybe celebrities, whether they be, have.
Big reach who are so clear-eyedabout the politics of this
(33:34):
moment and what we need to do.
I think there's a lot there and a lotthat we can draw on as we move forward.
Eric (33:40):
Well, I'm glad that we have you to turn to your leadership and
your enthusiasm and the, the lovethat you bring to this is, is such an
inspiration to me, and I know that alot of other, other people, I just wanna
shout out Freedom Table on News One.
Your newsletter, how We Win, andyour book From Presence to Power,
which is coming soon from One Worldat Penguin Random House in July.
Rashad (34:03):
In July 28th, is the pub date.
But the book is outthere for pre-order now.
If
Eric (34:08):
you want all preorder, everybody to get those numbers up on whatever platform,
Rashad (34:12):
that's whatever platform.
Eric (34:12):
Rashad, I cannot thank you enough.
Rashad (34:15):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Kirk (34:19):
And we are back.
So, so other words I like from this.
I like win
Eric (34:24):
win.
I like build power.
Build power.
Kirk (34:27):
And I like joy.
Eric (34:28):
Joy.
And there's one more word.
Kirk (34:30):
Keep going.
Eric (34:31):
Mets.
He's a Mets fan.
Kirk (34:35):
Oh my God.
Eric (34:36):
Exit 71, 71, 72 on the LIE.
And
Kirk (34:40):
now we're off.
That's me.
Now we're off the rails.
Now we're off the rails.
Remember we're talking about winning.
Eric (34:45):
That's what
we're
Kirk (34:45):
talking,
Eric (34:46):
we're talking about winning.
We can't talk about the Mets.
If we're talking about winning,
Kirk (34:48):
we're talking about winning
Eric (34:49):
mets.
Kirk (34:49):
Don't win.
So where do you start here?
Because there's so manypieces of the puzzle.
And actually one of the things I lovedhearing him reflect on all the work
he is doing, it's the organizing, it'sthe moving major institutions to course
correct on a host of different counts.
But, um, you know, he's such a savvyperson when it comes to the media and
(35:10):
navigating the media in all forms.
And I love that that was part of hisorigin story too, that he started
feeling the power of media and, um.
You and I both have that kind of mediathing and our backbone and our experience,
and I just, I thought that was a reallycool piece of the puzzle in terms of
all the things that Rashad works on.
Eric (35:27):
Well, yes.
I mean, the fact that his book iscalled From Presence to Power is a
reminder that presence isn't enough,that you have to use it to build power.
And another thing that hetalked about a lot is making
meaning of particular moments.
Now it is as though he was havinga conversation with Kristen Grim.
Who, who we interviewedrecently about maybe,
Kirk (35:48):
you know, it's a great idea.
This podcast is a great idea, idea.
It's a stupid idea the way these Semialpeople could just kind of talk to each
other across the different episodes.
I love this podcast.
It's
Eric (35:57):
great.
You know, that was me as thesetter in volleyball and you
banging the ball over the net.
Yes.
I knew that you were gonna startscreaming when I said that,
but yes, it's true and it is soimportant for us to understand how.
Uh, moments are not outcomes.
(36:18):
Yeah.
We have to take moments andturn them into outcomes.
And his approach to that Ithink is really important.
And when we got into the kind of the badbunny conversation, uh, it was a reminder
to us not to think of bad bunny beingpolitical at the Super Bowl as an outcome.
It is the beginning of somethingand not the end of something.
(36:39):
And I thought that was reallyimportant and something that we all
need to take very close to home.
Kirk (36:45):
In honing this concept around power Man, this landed like a, I
don't know what, just the, the weightof what he said when he said, power
is the ability to change the rules.
That's what we're trying to do.
We are trying to develop power tochange the rules and, um, I, I just,
I, this, I gotta say something.
(37:05):
I knew you're gonna cut,but I'm gonna say something.
It made me wanna pause for amoment and just reflect on.
One of the things, I think as acommunity we kind of have to come
to grips with, and we use the wordPA in such passing, but I think it's
got so much more significance almost.
We're giving it, we're living underthe, whatever you wanna call it, the
shadow of the most powerful presidencyin the history of our country.
(37:28):
The most powerful person in thehistory of the United States is
actually renting our country right now.
And And how do you know that?
Because all the rules are beingchanged with no consequence.
I'm not so, so it's just, it's justhaving voices like Rashad be like, you
know, actually we need to develop power.
We need to change therules in a positive way.
(37:49):
And for Rashad to be pullingthis work forward at such a
crucial time, I, I don't know.
It just that powers theability to change the rules.
It just landed so weighty, both inthe negative and the positive of it.
As I'm looking at things,what do you think about that?
Eric (38:03):
And let us remember, if you think back, uh, what was it?
2016 and the run up to theelection, people went, uh, that
guy, he doesn't have a prayer.
It's kind of like how peopleviewed the kid rock counter
programming to the Super Bowl.
Like, look at all this power.
Look at the 135 millionpeople watching this.
(38:23):
It's a cultural movement.
And that other guy over there, he'sdoing some stupid counter programming and
we just kinda laugh it off in our own.
Mm-hmm.
Kind of left, uh, way.
Let's just call it.
Yet, this is what happenswhen you make meaning out of a
counter protest or a counter, uh,movement or something like that.
(38:45):
And, and that's what this president hasdone, and look where it has landed him.
So I do think that these pieces all fittogether and they are cautionary tales.
There are a reminder not to get smug.
There are a reminder thatyou have to build power.
And one more thing thatI should point out.
Was Rashad was talking about Minneapolis.
Yeah.
And the response in Minneapolisalso did not happen.
(39:08):
Uh.
At the moment, it was the result oforganizations getting together and
being powerful and also helping toelect a district attorney in Mary
Moriarty who helped hold the line.
So these are things thatare not overnight successes.
They're accrued over time, andthey are built through hard work
and they have to be maintainedand fed and watered and all that.
Kirk (39:29):
And I really appreciated that you guys talked about Minneapolis and
everything that's going on in Minnesotaand just what a poignant, awful, terrible.
Moment it's been for innocent people,you know, being thrown in the, into
the mix of all this and is it almostalways his innocent people, right?
Yes.
Like that and that observationthat, you know, whatever we
wanna make of this moment.
The fact that there were years and yearsand years and years and years of hard
(39:51):
work that put all that framework andinfrastructure together, it's just, um.
It sets a reminder that so muchof the hard work and the good
work happens not in the limelight.
You know, it's all the stuff thathappens when we're not paying
attention in a weird way, you know,is where that hard work happens.
Eric (40:04):
And it also happens when you have to respond.
In the moment as well.
Yeah.
When something happens,you respond in the moment.
I love it.
You know?
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Yeah.
Eric (40:12):
Don Lemon gets arrested and Jane Fonda calls up for Shine.
He's like, let's getout of the courthouse.
Yeah,
Speaker 3 (40:17):
yeah.
Eric (40:17):
We need to be there and we need to be heard, and we need to
be counted, and we need to respond.
You can't let things go by, and that'sjust the nature of our information
cycle, but is also the nature of howdo you make meaning out of a moment,
Kirk (40:31):
you know?
You know how I like to throw out?
New projects that people can take onbecause they're not busy enough already.
Eric (40:36):
No, I have no idea.
Tell
Kirk (40:38):
tell me more
Eric (40:38):
about that.
Kirk (40:39):
Rashad needs a whole new project he needs and he's already doing 20 things.
Eric (40:44):
You be telling people what to do.
Kirk (40:46):
He needs, he needs a project.
Helping people like me figure outthe hat game because his hat game.
Hat game.
Oh, oh wow.
It is inspiring.
And I'm like, Rashad, thisis, this is it Rashad?
This is like.
Work the hat game and helpothers to work the hat game.
'cause we, Rashad works thehat game incredibly well.
It's amazing.
Eric (41:06):
Yeah, I agree.
And you, I think Kirk,you could pull off a hat
Kirk (41:09):
with, with expert assistance.
I agree.
I agree.
So, but, but I need expert assistance.
I need, I need an expert to help mesort that out, as do millions of others.
So I think because
Eric (41:17):
you're, you're, you're a big guy and, and people aren't gonna make
fun of you because you'll squish that.
Oh
Kirk (41:22):
yes, they will.
Yes.
Eric (41:23):
They, you'll squ that they a little tiny bug.
Kirk (41:25):
Oh yes, they will.
I loved the idea.
He talked about our job is to get thesemajor institutions into negotiations.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Yeah.
Kirk (41:34):
And if, and if we are not forcing the negotiation, again,
this gets back to the power ofthe ability to change the rules.
If we're not forcing the negotiation,then we need to rethink what we're doing.
And um, and he calls out just, you know,cars aren't safe because of benevolence,
food is not safe because of benevolence.
I will go back to myrefrain about social media.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Uh oh.
Kirk (41:52):
We are, we are drinking a drink that we don't know
what the ingredients include.
So social media will not be safeuntil there's a negotiation that
requires safety, whatever that'sgonna look like into that mechanism.
But this notion that the job is to getentities into negotiation, it's just.
Such an important observationabout how this actually works,
Eric (42:11):
but he also cautions us against getting roped into a dialogue in
which nothing actually occurs.
You may think you're in a negotiationwhen you're actually in a dialogue.
You're going back and forth andback and forth and nothing happens.
And then they get to say, oh yeah, we haddeep conversations with such and such.
Yeah.
Instead of understanding when youare and moving that conversation
(42:31):
into a negotiation in which you have.
Your interests at stake and in whichyou have, I can't remember exactly what
he said, but it's like it has to bepainful for folks to go against you.
I don't you remember exactly what hesaid, but that was a really good way
of gauging whether the thing thatyou are doing is gaining currency in
(42:54):
which you see the other side, feelingthe pain of your wrath, and that's
how you know you're in a negotiation.
Kirk (43:01):
You know, hearing him talk about his work and hearing you guys go back
and forth over his trajectory and justfeeling his presence and the presence
he brings to the work, where does Joyneed to be put into the logic model?
Because it's so clear he's, and infact, is it fair to say he's hopeful?
Is it fair to say he's an optimist?
You know, there's just so muchpositive energy that flows through
(43:22):
in terms of how he's talkingabout the work, and that was my.
My last kind of observation, youtalked about the danger of fatigue and
this, you know, moment that's goingon in terms of how we need to take
care of ourselves as we do this work.
And I was like, you know what?
This is again, the other project Rashadcan take on because he's not busy enough.
But like whatever that bottle ofjoy is coming from whatever the
tools or systems that Rashad's usingto actually parlay that energy.
(43:45):
I also think that's such acrucial ingredient to pull forward
right now because it's such ahard time for so many people.
Eric (43:52):
I agree, and I think I opened the conversation with him just kind of
trying to, to communicate his essenceto the listener, which is that Rashad
is a, he's just a joyful person.
He goes at this work with a senseof aspiration, and now he also talks
about joy in the context of black joy.
And he and I have a quote here.
(44:12):
He says, black joy is not the absenceof pain, but the presence of aspiration.
Yes, the presence of possibilityand the presence of hope.
Yes.
And that's, to me anyway, how hisjoy, that's how I experience it.
And I, I assume other people do aswell, everybody experiences things in
different ways, but, but that sense ofhope and aspiration and possibility is
(44:34):
so powerful and is, it's so winning andit brings people along and I think it's
such an important part of our collectivework is to not lose sight of that.
I mean, so much of whatwe're doing right now is.
Fending off the devil or trying to mm-hmm.
Deal with the horrors that we areseeing in almost every aspect of
(44:54):
American social and political life.
Yeah.
And what I believe Rashad has really, um,somehow managed to capture is how to go at
that work with the sense of joy and hope.
Kirk (45:07):
Yeah.
And it's just, it just conveysso clearly as he talks about.
Everything he's working on.
Well, again, let's do the shoutout for the book from Presidents
to power, how to take on thefights that matter and Help win.
That's coming in July.
You can order it anywhere nowand you can pick it up at your
local bookstore when it comes out.
And, you know, just, you know,work with culture and celebrity.
Obviously working with Jane Fonda,but just to draw in those threads.
(45:29):
I'd love that little conversationyou guys had about bad money and,
and, and what, what that wholemoment of the Super Bowl was about.
Eric (45:33):
And I would absolutely commend to you his.
Essay on Bad Bunny, which goes beyondour conversation, which you can
see@rashadrobinson.com in which hetalks about this, this notion about,
you know, you, you have to takeadvantage of this, of this moment.
I mean, the, the head of the,the title of the newspaper
piece was Bad Bunny did his job.
(45:54):
Will we do ours?
It is not like we can stand by like,Ooh, good, bad bunny solved the problem.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Mm-hmm.
Eric (46:03):
Of culture.
No.
What are we gonna take outta that?
How are we gonna take advantage of thatinstead of watching the other side, you
know, turn a million viewers of kid rockinto some kind of spectacle on its own.
So let's, let's remember to takeadvantage of the opportunities and to
understand that presence isn't power.
Kirk (46:25):
Yeah.
It's a, it's a, justseeing it is not enough.
The fact that people saw it's notenough, it's gotta move forward.
Well, Eric, what a great conversation.
And again, Rashad, thank you somuch for all the work you're doing
with everything you've got going on.
Eric (46:37):
Well, I think your point about Minneapolis and all of these
things in the context of the extremechallenges that people are facing in
this country, understanding how tonot just build power, but to do it in
a way that is attractive, that bringspeople along and gives people hope.
It feels to me like the cruxof the message that Rashad
is carrying these days.
Kirk (46:57):
Yeah.
So exciting.
Well, thank you again,um, Rashad for coming on.
Let's hear it's so generous for you.
Give us the time.
Please rush out to pick up frompresences to power, how to take on
the fights that matter and help win.
And Eric, you've done it again.
You've done it again.
This is a great conversation andI'm so glad we got to be part of it.
Eric (47:14):
Well, that was a great one.
Thanks very much to Rashad and I hopefolks will check out his website and
check out his books and sign up to hisnewsletter, which is really, really great.
Uh, he does seem to be able tocapture a particular moment and
give it context to give meaning.
So
Kirk (47:29):
yeah.
Eric (47:30):
Thank you again to Rashad.
Kirk (47:32):
Thank you, Rashad.
Thank you for everyone.
Thank you, Mr. Brown, and wewill see you next time on.
Let's hear it.
Okay everybody, that'sit for this episode.
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAli, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music,
Eric (47:52):
our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation,
Kirk (47:54):
and please check out Lumina's Terrific podcast.
Today's students tomorrow's talent, andyou can find that@luminafoundation.org.
Eric (48:02):
We certainly thank today's guest and of course, all of you,
Kirk (48:05):
and most importantly, thank you, Mr.
Brown.
Eric (48:08):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Kirk (48:11):
Okay, everybody, till next time.
Welcome to, let's Hear It.
Eric (00:01):
Let's Hear.
It is a podcast for and about thefield of foundation and nonprofit
communications produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No relation.
Kirk (00:12):
Well said Eric.
And I'm Kirk.
Eric (00:14):
And I'm Eric.
Let's hear.
It is sponsored by the Kenneth RaininFoundation, which enhances quality
of life by championing the arts.
Promoting Early childhood literacy andsupporting research to cure chronic
disease online@krfoundation.org.
We are also sponsored by the PrevisFoundation, a foundation creating
an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.
(00:35):
Check out their amazingly good podcasts.
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Hosted by Grant Hon and Crystal Page.
You can find them at stopand talk podcast.com.
Kirk (00:43):
You can find, let's hear it on any podcast subscription platform.
Eric (00:46):
You can find us online at, let's hear@cast.com.
Kirk (00:49):
And if you'd like the show, please, please, please rate us on
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Apple Podcasts so that more people can find us.
Let's get onto the show.
Kirk (00:58):
So there's a blizzard hitting most of the United States right now, is there
now, but I'm, I'm, I've never been happierto be in the Bay Area than I am right now.
Eric (01:04):
Do not gloat.
Kirk (01:05):
The type of countrys covered under snow,
Eric (01:07):
it's root to gloat.
And you as a mid-westerner, asone of those nice islands, you,
you should know not to gloat.
Kirk (01:13):
Well, let's extend from the warm confines, the relatively warm
confines of the San Francisco Bay area.
Mighty, welcome in to everybodywho's coming back to, let's hear it.
Eric (01:20):
Welcome in.
Kirk (01:22):
See there are welcome.
You found us.
There's a really importantword we're about to hear.
I wonder if you can guess thatI think is the most important
Eric (01:28):
word.
Just one word.
Remember, we're gonna, you're gonna listento whatever an hour with of, of, of stuff.
A very important 30 minuteconversation with Rashad Robinson and
then 20 minutes of, of blah, blah.
But there's gonna be one wordyou're gonna have to listen to.
Kirk (01:42):
That word is win
Eric (01:45):
a win.
Oh,
Kirk (01:46):
Rashad Robinson knows how to win, and I think that is awesome.
I'm so glad you guyshad this conversation.
Talk about it.
We have much to discuss when we come back,but Rashad Robinson knows how to win and
I couldn't thank him enough for that.
By
Eric (02:02):
the way, Rashad Robinson is.
A joyful, amazingly powerful, sucha cool person to talk to right now.
The timing could not be better.
He is the former head of Color ofChange, the largest online racial
justice organization in the country.
He has, he co-founded the Fight backtable, which was one of the largest
(02:25):
progressive coalitions in the us.
He has this new newsletternow called How We Win.
There's that word win.
Kirk (02:31):
There it is.
Eric (02:31):
He has a show on news, one called Freedom Table.
Uh, what else?
He's, uh, he's a co-chair of thesteering committee for the committee
on the First Amendment workingalongside none other than Jane Fonda.
Uh, and he has a book coming out calledFrom Presence to Power, how to Take
On the Fights That Matter and Win.
There Goes that word again.
(02:52):
Yeah.
Coming from One WorldPenguin Random House in July.
Rashad is everywhere and alwayshe's incredibly interesting.
And we had this conversation rightafter the Super Bowl, so we got
a little bit of bad bunny talk
Rashad (03:05):
Yeah.
Eric (03:06):
In there.
Right.
And I, you know, I was, I was reallyexcited to talk to him and, and, uh, yeah.
That, that's what we did.
Kirk (03:13):
Yeah.
Les mentioned from presence to power.
Again, it's his book that'scoming out in July 28th.
You can pre-order it now fromall the places you order though.
And by the way, buy it someplace local,which we, we would support that as well.
Rashad Robinson.
What a great conversation.
So let's listen to Rashad and Eric andlet's hear it, and then we'll be back.
Eric (03:32):
Rashad Robinson has spent his career proving an essential truth.
That visibility for yourissue is only the beginning.
You have to turn that into powerto bring about lasting change.
And at a moment when so manyorganizations, too many are hunkering
down and hoping that the storm passes,Rashad Robinson is asking the question.
This entire sector needs to sit with.
(03:53):
Are you building power?
Rashad Robinson.
You are a civil rights leader,a change maker, and you are
single handedly keeping the HaberDashers in New York and business.
Thank you very, very muchfor coming on the show.
Rashad (04:08):
Ah, thanks for having me.
It's great to be with you.
Eric (04:10):
One of my favorite things about you are the lids.
You have some amazing hats.
So I gotta,
Rashad (04:15):
I really do.
I love, I love a, I lovea good fedora bucket hat.
I love, I love, I love to connect the,the hat with the rest of the style.
So it's, it's, it's always a,a, a fun way to express myself.
Eric (04:28):
Well, you know, I've got a whole long list of questions here and
I just chucked them out the window.
'cause I just wanna start withyour essence, your personality.
You were a. You know, you're a, like,I don't know what a happy warrior or
something, maybe warrior's, not theword, but you just seem to bring this
life and joy and love to your work.
Mm-hmm.
How, how did that happen?
Rashad (04:48):
You know, I, I feel like I wake up in the morning.
You see so many things thatjust aren't right that you wanna
change, and, and I couldn't imaginenot having the opportunity to
actually do something about it.
So as much as like you internalizethe pain, I feel blessed to be able
to be in service and be engaged.
(05:09):
And I grew up in a family of peoplewho kind of simultaneously met.
The sort of work of trying to maketheir lives better and our community
better around us with living.
Recognizing that, you know, we don't,we only have so much time here.
It's, it's unpromised.
It could end tomorrow.
And so in, in these moments, wewanna do everything we can to both
(05:34):
try to be of service, try to be ofvalue, try to be of use, but also
like to have some joy along the way.
I often talk about.
Joy through the lens of racial justice.
I talk about black joy.
And black joy is not the absenceof pain, but it's the presence
of aspiration, the presence ofpossibility, the presence of hope, and
that's how I think about sort of joy.
(05:55):
And I try to bring joy to my work.
No one wants to fight to get to a bettertomorrow if they feel like getting there
with you is only gonna feel the same.
Eric (06:03):
Well that, that joy permeates everything about Jews.
Why I've been so excited abouthaving this conversation.
'cause we're in a, a tough time andyou bring something special to it.
We met when I interviewed you foranother project and we discovered
speaking of suffering a mutual un, anunfortunate love for the New York Mets.
And so I, I already, I already knewthat we, that we were gonna have some
(06:25):
kind of conne connection that way.
And obviously your work at Colorof Change has been so important.
And what's your life beenlike since your days there?
You, you're into a new thing.
Rashad (06:36):
Yeah, no, so, you know, a couple of things that have been really focused,
you know, there was like this piece of myjob at Color of Change that 30% of my time
maybe where I kind of played this role of.
Chief Strategy Officer, I kind ofput quotation marks around it where
oftentimes, whether it was throughthe work that I was doing where I was
trying to model innovation or modelnew ways of doing things, or I was
(06:58):
just deeply engaged with a range ofactivists, I helped to found something.
I was the co co-founders and they calledthe fight back table, which is one
of the largest progressive coalitionsthat it still exists today and.
I co-founded that after the 2016 electionas a way for progressive organizations
that weren't gonna negotiate andrecognize the real threat of the Trump
(07:22):
administration and where we were heading,and recognize that we had to have a, a
center of gravity for those that wanted tofight and recognize that this wasn't the
same type of administrative change thatwe've seen in other ways where it's like.
George W. Bush may haverepresented a change candidate.
Donald Trump represented a change therules candidate, and changing the rules
(07:44):
is a different type of way to think abouthow power is used and how we engage.
And so that sort of.
Way of thinking and being able to buildframeworks is very much now at the
center of a lot of the work I get to do.
So I, I have sort of a whole practiceof helping movement organizations
really think about power andnarrative and culture change.
(08:05):
I have a set of media projects.
That I work on, ranging from a podcastthat's being launched with Courier
this spring to a, a work I do withNews One, which is one of the largest
black media outlets, a a project calledFreedom Table, which we bring together
conversations that are sometimes tough forinteresting and have family conversations.
(08:26):
A book with Random Housethat comes out July 28th.
Okay.
But it's up on bookshop and, and you're.
And you can get it at the Random PenguinRandom House website and any other places,
I think online where you buy books.
Although try to find someplace local andit's called From Presence to Power, how
to take on the fights that matter and win.
(08:48):
And so both in moving this bookout in the world, moving these
media projects, doing work.
Across movements.
Working very closely right now withJane Fonda and the committee on the
First Amendment, um, which I helped.
I'm helping as the co-chair ofthe steering committee, but also
working really closely with Jane asshe's doing everything she can to
(09:08):
organize this pillar of Hollywood.
Creatives and a-listers to speak upagainst authoritarianism, challenge
their industry and also reach more peoplearound the country about the threat.
So I guess suffice it to say, you know,I've been taking some time off and
resting and relaxing, if that, yes.
Eric (09:30):
Well, this moment.
It feels to me like it, your careeris coming together into this set of
tools and these set of activitiesthat is kind of coalescing.
Can you take us backto the, the beginning?
You were an organizer with Gladyou did media advocacy there.
Can you talk about what you learned alongthe way that brought you to this point?
Rashad (09:51):
Yeah, I learned a lot of things.
So the first protest that I ever ledwas in high school it was, it was a
local pharmacy, Rite Aid, but it was,you know, it wasn't a local pharmacy.
It was our local Rite Aidthat out in Riverhead.
Long Island, New York, andso I grew up the last exit on
the Long Island Expressway.
Whoa.
My family, my family got therethrough the great migration, the
(10:12):
farm fields of Virginia to thefarm fields of Eastern Long Island.
You know, I was grew up in a familythat, you know, didn't have the college
experience, but were very connectedto community and connected to a.
Activism and were part of the local naacpand, and you know, there was something
that didn't feel right about a decisionthey made to ban young people from
(10:35):
being able to enter during lunchtime.
And I organized a protest and,you know, built a press release.
'cause I was in this class aboutcommunications in high school.
All of that to say, I endedup on page two of, of Newsday.
Eric (10:50):
Whoa.
Rashad (10:50):
And, and on all of the, all of the local New York affiliates.
And so if you're on Long Island, you'repart of the New York media market.
And so getting into like WABC and WNBCmeans that the story travels much quicker.
So I became this young activist.
I had a local public access talkshow where we talk about issues and I
(11:11):
learned very quickly sort of what itmeant to actually be able to force.
Institutions to do thingsthat they don't wanna do.
Right.
My first answer from that RiteAid store when I, when I reached
out, was to kick rocks, right?
But we built up enough energy,we got enough media involved, and
we forced them to change their.
(11:31):
Decision.
And so there's always been this piecefrom very early on about understanding
how do you force institutions tobe nervous about disappointing you?
How do you force them to have tolisten to you when they don't wanna
listen to you to consider your demands?
And those that has very bitchbeen at the par heart of it.
(11:51):
And then I've.
Always been attracted to issuesthat I had some sort of connection
to through my family or personally.
So whether it was working on felonies,disenfranchisement, and the right to
vote for people with felony convictions,which is both a story of political
power for that individual, but alsoa story of political voice for.
(12:12):
Families that are part of that impactworking, going to glad In 2005, at
the height of right after all thoseanti-gay ballot measures passed in
2004, and they said that the LGBTmovement was part of Kerry's loss.
Eric (12:29):
Right.
Rashad (12:29):
And what that meant over the next several years where we saw such
a tremendous change in working really.
To force those pillars of entertainmentand news to shift their coverage, right?
What you could say and what youcould print and, and how you could
portray gay and lesbian people.
In 2005, when I got there, itlooked very different in 2011.
(12:51):
So across all of that, I'velearned a lot about power.
I've learned a lot about story, and I'velearned a lot about the role of people and
strategy in actually making that possible.
Eric (13:02):
Well, I used to deliver Newsday.
By the way.
Rashad (13:05):
You did?
I did.
Okay.
Yeah.
No, we got Newsday every single Newsday.
You know, getting a Newsday was abig, was a big deal because I grew
up with Newsday was also how you,how you got those Mets box scores.
That's
Eric (13:16):
right.
Rashad (13:17):
Uh, I was around enough during that eighties era of strawberry
and, and, and hojo and everyone.
Where like those were somegood days for the box scores.
Eric (13:26):
Those were good days for the box scores, and I was at Exit 25 on the la
Rashad (13:30):
so.
Okay.
Eric (13:31):
Or
Rashad (13:31):
70 71.
Eric (13:33):
Yeah.
That's far out there.
I, I don't think I've ever been that far.
Rashad (13:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We call that Real Long Island out there.
Eric (13:41):
Well, I'm, I'm so interested in what you're doing now and how
these pieces come together becauseyou have been so well known for.
Advancing narrative, but notjust narrative for its own sake.
And we talk about in thecommunication world, you know, stop
just trying to raise awareness.
You actually have to move people andyou have to, as you said, like make
(14:03):
these large institutions uncomfortablefor not giving you what you need for
not kind of delivering for, for people.
And so you, you've got this newslettercalled How We Win, which I really love.
And again, it's because you comeat it with this kind of joyful.
Optimism in the face of whatmany people feel like is an in,
(14:25):
like an intractable problem.
Freedom table on News one, which youjust launched, I think the first episode
just came out last month in January.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Mm-hmm.
Eric (14:33):
And, and you've got all these people that you bring together who I,
I am learning from and, and now yougot the book from Presence to Power.
Was there something that kind of.
Clicked in your mind that said,here are these components that if
we put them together, we're gonnacreate this body of information and
tools so that others can learn from.
Rashad (14:55):
You know, getting to the point where I'm at right now, I've mostly
thought about the different ways thatpeople take in information, the different
ways that I wanted to have influence,you know, leading color of change.
For 13 years.
I had sort of a, the ability to reach andengage black people and be, and thinking
about the role of black people as bothstrategists, voices, and our democracy.
(15:21):
And so the news, one thing was likeI just wanted to continue to have a
way to reach and engage black folksfor the sake of black folks, but also
understanding that when black people win,the country is oftentimes moving in the
right direction on so many other things.
The, the book was something that I knewthat I wanted to write for a long time.
(15:41):
I think the first time I really knew thatI wanted to find a different way to tell.
Stories, and I don't know if it wasactually the book, but I had just come
off of real success with the campaignto take on the American Legislative
Exchange Council, also known as Alec.
And so ran this campaign thatforced over a hundred corporations
(16:04):
to leave Alec and, and I.
You know, did a lot of media.
I did a lot of work and there were,there were a number of folks in
philanthropy and other places thatdid write-ups on the campaign and
said, we need more of these campaigns.
And they took the write-ups and thenthey went off and funded people to do.
That work and never came backto me or color of change.
(16:27):
And I recognize that tricky dance between,the difference between being boots
on the ground and being a strategistand being able to set strategy.
And in order to set strategy, thereare different things you have to pull
and it sometimes is a lot harder ifyou're a woman, if you're a person
of color, if you are a workingclass, sometimes to be considered.
(16:49):
In those rooms in that way.
But I recognized that I did have tobe able to make legible the work.
I had to, in my own way, createthe frameworks and, and if I wasn't
simultaneously telling the storythrough my own voice, other people
would, they would make sense of it.
And then sometimes oftentimesthey would maybe get.
(17:10):
Key pieces wrong.
And one of the key pieces oftentimesthat folks got wrong around the ALI
campaign was how essential it wasto have an organized constituency
that exists in the world.
Right?
And what I mean by that is havinga black constituency that was
organized enough to force corporationsto do something, it could be.
LGBT.
(17:31):
It could be women, it could, but likenot just a political constituency,
not just people who shared certainvalues, but people who were tied
together by something a bit deeper.
And that was key to being able to forcea company that has a marketing budget
and has to like determine am I losingmarket share in these audiences that will.
(17:54):
Heard my bottom line, especiallyif they're a public facing company
like a McDonald's or a Coca-Cola.
So these pieces really for me, eachcame from sort of a, a desire to
reach key audiences and to be ableto help us get closer to winning the
newsletters for people who are muchmore players on the field who are.
(18:18):
Working in philanthropy and who areworking in movement organizations or
organize and engaged, and I'm reallyrolling out strategy and I'm rolling
out sort of a, a more dispatches versionof that newsletter over the course
of the next couple of weeks that willbe more targeted towards folks who.
(18:39):
Every day seeing what's happeningon the news, seeing what's
happening in the world, and wannabe able to place it in something.
And so I think a lot about audience,I think a lot about helping people
make sense of what's happening.
And I think a lot about how to thengive people the tools to do something.
And so each of these things thatI'm doing is in service of that.
(18:59):
And hopefully, uh, along the way I reachenough people to have the type of impact.
That, that, that matters.
Eric (19:05):
We're gonna take a very quick break, and after the break I'm gonna
ask you about what just happened atLevi's Stadium here in San Francisco
and the cultural moment that BadBunny might have helped to create.
So we'll be right back.
With Rashad Robinson right afterthis, you are listening to, let's
Hear It, a podcast about foundationand nonprofit communications hosted
by Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
(19:28):
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Breakfa Ruleswith Glen Gallic, CEO of the Stubs Ski
Foundation, as he chats with inspiringleaders in philanthropy, government
media, and more about breaking thefake rules that don't work so that
we can build a future that does.
Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now back to the show.
(19:53):
And we're back with Rashad Robinson.
Okay, so the Super Bowljust happened and this.
Conversation that you have about how doyou take cultural moments and bring people
together and create something out of it.
It feels like something justhappened at the Super Bowl, and
I would love your take on it.
Rashad (20:10):
I actually just this morning, wrapped up the final
draft of my newsletter onthis, so I have like, oh good.
My mind, and mostlybecause I'm, I've been.
Thinking a lot about culture andcelebrity and all of these things is how
does it give us permission to believethat we can say more or give us a
kind of a signal about where we're at?
(20:30):
First and foremost, I thoughtwhat bad Buddy did was.
Just so incredibly powerfuland theatrical in many ways.
Like we got like a real theaterin a, in a way that was not always
what you get in a performance.
And it was political in a way that Idon't think we've seen in the Super Bowl
perhaps since maybe Beyonce's performance.
But the last several yearshave been interesting and.
(20:53):
Cool in different ways.
And of course Kendrick was, wasgreat in his own way, but he was not
political in the way that Bad Bunny was.
And so I think it's like areally interesting moment, right?
So I think Bad Bunny didhis job as an artist.
And I think the question now forthe movement is, what is our job?
How do you then use these momentsand leverage these moments to
help people make sense of it?
(21:14):
We know that the right wing is gonna doa whole lot of work to try to reach the
135 million people that watch that and tryto help them make sense of that moment.
That's what they do, and so ourinfrastructure actually has to help people
make sense of it, to translate what itmeans for people, what they should do.
(21:36):
Help people who may have been moved alittle bit, may have not really understood
all the words, but saw the images.
And that type of a, that type ofinfrastructure of sense-making, of
translating, and I don't mean translatingjust in terms of Spanish to English.
I mean translating in terms of the, thecultural critique that's important that
(21:58):
happens online, and that translatesto our conversation so that we have.
Some shared understandingsof what happened.
I think that that is thework that movements do.
Bad Bunny can reach a whole lot morepeople than any immigration group,
any Latino advocacy organization, anyorganization working against corporate
(22:19):
exploitation nor, or sort of, uh, theextraction of wealth and labor and land.
And so he gives us the art.
The politics.
And now I think really the, the workthere is how do we hone those things
into ways that people can understand.
(22:41):
And so it's a mistake for us to think thatlike, oh, people saw it and that's enough.
In fact it's, it's never enough.
The more we take these momentsand the more we exploit them,
the more downstream impact andeven upstream impact it'll have.
Eric (23:00):
Well, your book is called Presence to Power, it sounds like.
Yes.
Bad Bad Bunny was the presence, andnow the organizations that are working
on the issues that he is helpingto shine a light on, have to apply
the power, and you've done this.
Many, many times I'd love to hear aboutthe Facebook campaign because I think that
is a perfect example of presence to power.
Rashad (23:21):
Yeah, the Facebook campaign, right when I first got to Color of
Change back in 2011, our biggestsocial media platform was MySpace.
That's where we had the most activity.
And so over time wegrew a lot of presence.
The goal was to get as manyfollowers on Facebook, you know,
as we built our Facebook presenceand, and get as much reach.
(23:44):
And we got to a point where westarted to see that the rules.
Of Facebook was stacked against us.
Right?
It wasn't enough to justhave more followers on a
system that is unfair, right?
It's like, it's like trying togo into a, a gerrymander district
and try to, and just asking peopleto vote without an understanding
(24:06):
of the power dynamics, right?
And so the underlying power dynamicsof how Facebook worked before we.
Use words like algorithm was startingto face us, but also a lot of rules
around how Facebook did its business.
Right?
And we had these sets of moments whereBlack Lives Matter activists were
getting dox where police interactionswould happen and the police could have,
(24:29):
maybe the Facebook Live turned off inthat moment when Facebook would comply.
And we had some moments wherea young woman was murdered.
And, and the Facebook Live wasturned off because Facebook agreed
to it, and we recognized that asmuch as we were pushing on Facebook,
we weren't having the traction.
And so we had to continue tochange what we were doing.
(24:51):
We got to a moment with Facebookwhere we didn't know if we were.
Being heard, but we found out from theNew York Times that we were, because
they had hired a PR firm called Definers,to place negative stories and attack
pieces on me and the organizationand those attack pieces, we would've
(25:11):
never known that they were coming fromFacebook, had New York Times, not.
Posted, but in that moment,it meant that Facebook had to
engage us in a different way.
So it went from being able to haveconversations with senior level
people in their DC office to actuallymoving to direct negotiations with
Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg.
(25:31):
And that led to a differenttype of engagement.
And this is something I reallyhave learned over the years.
When you're dealing with corporations,it's always important to know
whether or not you're in a dialogue.
Or negotiation.
When you're in a dialogue, they willkeep you talking and you'll be in a
(25:51):
back and forth, and it'll be a nice tohave and they want you there so they
can say that they've talked to you.
If you're in a negotiation,you might actually be able,
Tom move things and win things.
And the corporation's job is to keepyou in a dialogue and your job as an
advocate is to get into a negotiation.
And so part of what I. Learn fromthe Facebook work is really how to
(26:13):
move from dialogue to negotiation.
And when you end up realizing you'renot getting to negotiation, you have
to change your strategies, you haveto up your strategy so you're not
just in presence, but you're in power.
Because power is theability to change the rules.
Sometimes it's written rules,sometimes it's unwritten rules.
And so, you know, wedid, we had to move to.
(26:36):
All sorts of other activities from one ofthe largest boycotts in American history
to a racial equity audit that forcedthem to move to change their policies.
And in the background of allthat Facebook activity we had.
The potential at that point in time forreal regulation on big tech and that
(26:57):
real regulation on big tech was the thingthat Facebook was super worried about.
And so we also had to keep our feetin this moment of Congress and Senate.
I testified before Congress onregulation and each of these
moments saying, you know, Facebookchange your policies and practices.
(27:17):
Congress.
Facebook won't change their policiesand practices, but along the way,
trying to win as much as possible.
Ultimately, we know where we'reat with big tech right now, right?
I think we've learned, you know, howmuch power and money they're willing
to put in the, in along the way.
We once of things, I don't think.
The 2020 election would've went the waywe wanted to go had we not won the type
(27:38):
of real victories in terms of contentmoderation, in terms of how political
ads were engaged in terms of all of that.
But ultimately, it is a storyof presence of power, and it is
ultimately a story of the need for.
Regulation.
Our cars are not safe because of thebenevolence of the auto industry.
Our food is not safe because of big Ag.
(28:00):
It's safe because there have beenadvocates and there have been campaigns,
and now there is infrastructure thatholds those corporations accountable
and creates real consequenceswhen they harm and hurt us.
Eric (28:12):
We talked a little bit about this earlier, but you, you've written
powerfully about the danger of fatigue.
In this moment and the temptation tobelieve that what's happening is normal
to, you know, to normalize the crazy, alot of our listeners are in the trenches.
They're working day to day on thiskind of work, and they're getting
exhausted if they're, if, if they'renot already completely burned out.
(28:36):
How do you tell peoplewho are running on empty?
What do you, what do you say to them?
Uh, when they're, theythey know they can't stop.
Rashad (28:44):
Yeah.
I, I always tell people like.
You gotta put your oxygen mashon and you gotta like, you
gotta, you gotta take a breath.
But there are people who have been in muchworse situations than we are in right now.
And they found it within themselves tocontinue to push and continue to fight.
(29:07):
And so what I, I know is that maybe if youcan't do the thing that you're doing right
now, the same way, maybe there's anotherway for you to contribute, but find
the ways to contribute in this moment.
But I, I, I understand.
I understand fatigue.
There have definitely beentimes where I've been tired.
But I also, like I started off thisinterview, I simply just don't know what
(29:32):
I would be doing or how I would be ableto make sense of my life if I woke up
and saw everything that was happeningand I was not using every bit of myself
to do what I can to right the wrongs.
Y
Eric (29:46):
your newsletter is called How We Win.
So I wanna ask you this, would you pointto one or two things in the next year or
so and say that's what winning looks like?
Rashad (29:58):
I think the incredible bravery and organizing that's happening on the ground
in Minneapolis and, and it is a result ofyears of collaborative work between folks.
As someone who's supported and engagedsome of the work in Minneapolis over
the years, who was part of electingMary Moriarty, the district attorney,
and kicking the old DA who wouldn't.
(30:19):
Engaged right after the murder of GeorgeFloyd and has supported and collaborated
with many of the groups on the ground.
I just continue to be impressedby what they've built.
You know, people talk about themiddle of the country and all of
that stuff, and the heartland, andthis is the middle of the country.
This is the heartland, and it speaksto the power of infrastructure,
(30:41):
of building infrastructure, ofcommunities working together.
Of what is possible.
And I think that that is onething that I think is possible.
We already talked about Bad Bunny and Ido wanna mention what he did in Puerto
Rico, and I think it is a example forso many of, uh, the celebrities and
(31:02):
talent that we work with, that we love,that we support, that we celebrate.
And so the work that I'm doingright now with Jane Fonda, who's.
88 years old and has more energy thananyone I know, but has such a clear.
Focus and analysis both about wherewe're at and where we're going.
(31:24):
And I was with Jade in LA the um, theday that Don Lemon was arrested in LA
And you know, I reached out to her thatmorning and she was like, oh, well I guess
we're gonna go down to the courthouse.
And I said, I guess we are.
And we went down to the courthouse.
But I remember later that day, the two ofus went on to Don's platform, Don's show,
(31:47):
to talk about the committee for the Firstamendment, protecting the First amendment,
protest, speech, all these things.
And, and Janna's always soclear about the threats.
Authoritarianism, but also the factthat while this is new for white
people, it's not new for black peopleand black people in this country.
(32:07):
Black people particularly in theSouth, but all through the country
in major cities, you know, likeBoston, you know, you the have faced
a type of authoritarianism and sothere's a lot to learn from the
knowledge that exists in our own.
Country and in our own space, and I thinklike when Jane both rightfully invites
(32:32):
people into the work, but also callsout where we've already been and what
we already know, I think it's such animportant piece of the work that needs
to happen because we, we have to both.
Understand the strategy moving forward,but we have to be clear-eyed about the
history and that this is not the firsttime we've been here as a country.
(32:53):
This is not like this has never happened.
There are roots here that exist.
We live in a country where we have a,literally the first black mayor in some
towns in the south that were lockedout of their offices in this decade.
We know that there are all sorts ofways in which without people organized,
(33:13):
willing to fight and willing to push thesesystems, rely on people and it, these
systems will fail because people fail andwe have to be the people that don't fail.
And so when I think about Minneapolis,but I also think about the people who
have power and platform, whether theybe celebrities, whether they be, have.
Big reach who are so clear-eyedabout the politics of this
(33:34):
moment and what we need to do.
I think there's a lot there and a lotthat we can draw on as we move forward.
Eric (33:40):
Well, I'm glad that we have you to turn to your leadership and
your enthusiasm and the, the lovethat you bring to this is, is such an
inspiration to me, and I know that alot of other, other people, I just wanna
shout out Freedom Table on News One.
Your newsletter, how We Win, andyour book From Presence to Power,
which is coming soon from One Worldat Penguin Random House in July.
Rashad (34:03):
In July 28th, is the pub date.
But the book is outthere for pre-order now.
If
Eric (34:08):
you want all preorder, everybody to get those numbers up on whatever platform,
Rashad (34:12):
that's whatever platform.
Eric (34:12):
Rashad, I cannot thank you enough.
Rashad (34:15):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Kirk (34:19):
And we are back.
So, so other words I like from this.
I like win
Eric (34:24):
win.
I like build power.
Build power.
Kirk (34:27):
And I like joy.
Eric (34:28):
Joy.
And there's one more word.
Kirk (34:30):
Keep going.
Eric (34:31):
Mets.
He's a Mets fan.
Kirk (34:35):
Oh my God.
Eric (34:36):
Exit 71, 71, 72 on the LIE.
And
Kirk (34:40):
now we're off.
That's me.
Now we're off the rails.
Now we're off the rails.
Remember we're talking about winning.
Eric (34:45):
That's what
we're
Kirk (34:45):
talking,
Eric (34:46):
we're talking about winning.
We can't talk about the Mets.
If we're talking about winning,
Kirk (34:48):
we're talking about winning
Eric (34:49):
mets.
Kirk (34:49):
Don't win.
So where do you start here?
Because there's so manypieces of the puzzle.
And actually one of the things I lovedhearing him reflect on all the work
he is doing, it's the organizing, it'sthe moving major institutions to course
correct on a host of different counts.
But, um, you know, he's such a savvyperson when it comes to the media and
(35:10):
navigating the media in all forms.
And I love that that was part of hisorigin story too, that he started
feeling the power of media and, um.
You and I both have that kind of mediathing and our backbone and our experience,
and I just, I thought that was a reallycool piece of the puzzle in terms of
all the things that Rashad works on.
Eric (35:27):
Well, yes.
I mean, the fact that his book iscalled From Presence to Power is a
reminder that presence isn't enough,that you have to use it to build power.
And another thing that hetalked about a lot is making
meaning of particular moments.
Now it is as though he was havinga conversation with Kristen Grim.
Who, who we interviewedrecently about maybe,
Kirk (35:48):
you know, it's a great idea.
This podcast is a great idea, idea.
It's a stupid idea the way these Semialpeople could just kind of talk to each
other across the different episodes.
I love this podcast.
It's
Eric (35:57):
great.
You know, that was me as thesetter in volleyball and you
banging the ball over the net.
Yes.
I knew that you were gonna startscreaming when I said that,
but yes, it's true and it is soimportant for us to understand how.
Uh, moments are not outcomes.
(36:18):
Yeah.
We have to take moments andturn them into outcomes.
And his approach to that Ithink is really important.
And when we got into the kind of the badbunny conversation, uh, it was a reminder
to us not to think of bad bunny beingpolitical at the Super Bowl as an outcome.
It is the beginning of somethingand not the end of something.
(36:39):
And I thought that was reallyimportant and something that we all
need to take very close to home.
Kirk (36:45):
In honing this concept around power Man, this landed like a, I
don't know what, just the, the weightof what he said when he said, power
is the ability to change the rules.
That's what we're trying to do.
We are trying to develop power tochange the rules and, um, I, I just,
I, this, I gotta say something.
(37:05):
I knew you're gonna cut,but I'm gonna say something.
It made me wanna pause for amoment and just reflect on.
One of the things, I think as acommunity we kind of have to come
to grips with, and we use the wordPA in such passing, but I think it's
got so much more significance almost.
We're giving it, we're living underthe, whatever you wanna call it, the
shadow of the most powerful presidencyin the history of our country.
(37:28):
The most powerful person in thehistory of the United States is
actually renting our country right now.
And And how do you know that?
Because all the rules are beingchanged with no consequence.
I'm not so, so it's just, it's justhaving voices like Rashad be like, you
know, actually we need to develop power.
We need to change therules in a positive way.
(37:49):
And for Rashad to be pullingthis work forward at such a
crucial time, I, I don't know.
It just that powers theability to change the rules.
It just landed so weighty, both inthe negative and the positive of it.
As I'm looking at things,what do you think about that?
Eric (38:03):
And let us remember, if you think back, uh, what was it?
2016 and the run up to theelection, people went, uh, that
guy, he doesn't have a prayer.
It's kind of like how peopleviewed the kid rock counter
programming to the Super Bowl.
Like, look at all this power.
Look at the 135 millionpeople watching this.
(38:23):
It's a cultural movement.
And that other guy over there, he'sdoing some stupid counter programming and
we just kinda laugh it off in our own.
Mm-hmm.
Kind of left, uh, way.
Let's just call it.
Yet, this is what happenswhen you make meaning out of a
counter protest or a counter, uh,movement or something like that.
(38:45):
And, and that's what this president hasdone, and look where it has landed him.
So I do think that these pieces all fittogether and they are cautionary tales.
There are a reminder not to get smug.
There are a reminder thatyou have to build power.
And one more thing thatI should point out.
Was Rashad was talking about Minneapolis.
Yeah.
And the response in Minneapolisalso did not happen.
(39:08):
Uh.
At the moment, it was the result oforganizations getting together and
being powerful and also helping toelect a district attorney in Mary
Moriarty who helped hold the line.
So these are things thatare not overnight successes.
They're accrued over time, andthey are built through hard work
and they have to be maintainedand fed and watered and all that.
Kirk (39:29):
And I really appreciated that you guys talked about Minneapolis and
everything that's going on in Minnesotaand just what a poignant, awful, terrible.
Moment it's been for innocent people,you know, being thrown in the, into
the mix of all this and is it almostalways his innocent people, right?
Yes.
Like that and that observationthat, you know, whatever we
wanna make of this moment.
The fact that there were years and yearsand years and years and years of hard
(39:51):
work that put all that framework andinfrastructure together, it's just, um.
It sets a reminder that so muchof the hard work and the good
work happens not in the limelight.
You know, it's all the stuff thathappens when we're not paying
attention in a weird way, you know,is where that hard work happens.
Eric (40:04):
And it also happens when you have to respond.
In the moment as well.
Yeah.
When something happens,you respond in the moment.
I love it.
You know?
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Yeah.
Eric (40:12):
Don Lemon gets arrested and Jane Fonda calls up for Shine.
He's like, let's getout of the courthouse.
Yeah,
Speaker 3 (40:17):
yeah.
Eric (40:17):
We need to be there and we need to be heard, and we need to
be counted, and we need to respond.
You can't let things go by, and that'sjust the nature of our information
cycle, but is also the nature of howdo you make meaning out of a moment,
Kirk (40:31):
you know?
You know how I like to throw out?
New projects that people can take onbecause they're not busy enough already.
Eric (40:36):
No, I have no idea.
Tell
Kirk (40:38):
tell me more
Eric (40:38):
about that.
Kirk (40:39):
Rashad needs a whole new project he needs and he's already doing 20 things.
Eric (40:44):
You be telling people what to do.
Kirk (40:46):
He needs, he needs a project.
Helping people like me figure outthe hat game because his hat game.
Hat game.
Oh, oh wow.
It is inspiring.
And I'm like, Rashad, thisis, this is it Rashad?
This is like.
Work the hat game and helpothers to work the hat game.
'cause we, Rashad works thehat game incredibly well.
It's amazing.
Eric (41:06):
Yeah, I agree.
And you, I think Kirk,you could pull off a hat
Kirk (41:09):
with, with expert assistance.
I agree.
I agree.
So, but, but I need expert assistance.
I need, I need an expert to help mesort that out, as do millions of others.
So I think because
Eric (41:17):
you're, you're, you're a big guy and, and people aren't gonna make
fun of you because you'll squish that.
Oh
Kirk (41:22):
yes, they will.
Yes.
Eric (41:23):
They, you'll squ that they a little tiny bug.
Kirk (41:25):
Oh yes, they will.
I loved the idea.
He talked about our job is to get thesemajor institutions into negotiations.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Yeah.
Kirk (41:34):
And if, and if we are not forcing the negotiation, again,
this gets back to the power ofthe ability to change the rules.
If we're not forcing the negotiation,then we need to rethink what we're doing.
And um, and he calls out just, you know,cars aren't safe because of benevolence,
food is not safe because of benevolence.
I will go back to myrefrain about social media.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Uh oh.
Kirk (41:52):
We are, we are drinking a drink that we don't know
what the ingredients include.
So social media will not be safeuntil there's a negotiation that
requires safety, whatever that'sgonna look like into that mechanism.
But this notion that the job is to getentities into negotiation, it's just.
Such an important observationabout how this actually works,
Eric (42:11):
but he also cautions us against getting roped into a dialogue in
which nothing actually occurs.
You may think you're in a negotiationwhen you're actually in a dialogue.
You're going back and forth andback and forth and nothing happens.
And then they get to say, oh yeah, we haddeep conversations with such and such.
Yeah.
Instead of understanding when youare and moving that conversation
(42:31):
into a negotiation in which you have.
Your interests at stake and in whichyou have, I can't remember exactly what
he said, but it's like it has to bepainful for folks to go against you.
I don't you remember exactly what hesaid, but that was a really good way
of gauging whether the thing thatyou are doing is gaining currency in
(42:54):
which you see the other side, feelingthe pain of your wrath, and that's
how you know you're in a negotiation.
Kirk (43:01):
You know, hearing him talk about his work and hearing you guys go back
and forth over his trajectory and justfeeling his presence and the presence
he brings to the work, where does Joyneed to be put into the logic model?
Because it's so clear he's, and infact, is it fair to say he's hopeful?
Is it fair to say he's an optimist?
You know, there's just so muchpositive energy that flows through
(43:22):
in terms of how he's talkingabout the work, and that was my.
My last kind of observation, youtalked about the danger of fatigue and
this, you know, moment that's goingon in terms of how we need to take
care of ourselves as we do this work.
And I was like, you know what?
This is again, the other project Rashadcan take on because he's not busy enough.
But like whatever that bottle ofjoy is coming from whatever the
tools or systems that Rashad's usingto actually parlay that energy.
(43:45):
I also think that's such acrucial ingredient to pull forward
right now because it's such ahard time for so many people.
Eric (43:52):
I agree, and I think I opened the conversation with him just kind of
trying to, to communicate his essenceto the listener, which is that Rashad
is a, he's just a joyful person.
He goes at this work with a senseof aspiration, and now he also talks
about joy in the context of black joy.
And he and I have a quote here.
(44:12):
He says, black joy is not the absenceof pain, but the presence of aspiration.
Yes, the presence of possibilityand the presence of hope.
Yes.
And that's, to me anyway, how hisjoy, that's how I experience it.
And I, I assume other people do aswell, everybody experiences things in
different ways, but, but that sense ofhope and aspiration and possibility is
(44:34):
so powerful and is, it's so winning andit brings people along and I think it's
such an important part of our collectivework is to not lose sight of that.
I mean, so much of whatwe're doing right now is.
Fending off the devil or trying to mm-hmm.
Deal with the horrors that we areseeing in almost every aspect of
(44:54):
American social and political life.
Yeah.
And what I believe Rashad has really, um,somehow managed to capture is how to go at
that work with the sense of joy and hope.
Kirk (45:07):
Yeah.
And it's just, it just conveysso clearly as he talks about.
Everything he's working on.
Well, again, let's do the shoutout for the book from Presidents
to power, how to take on thefights that matter and Help win.
That's coming in July.
You can order it anywhere nowand you can pick it up at your
local bookstore when it comes out.
And, you know, just, you know,work with culture and celebrity.
Obviously working with Jane Fonda,but just to draw in those threads.
(45:29):
I'd love that little conversationyou guys had about bad money and,
and, and what, what that wholemoment of the Super Bowl was about.
Eric (45:33):
And I would absolutely commend to you his.
Essay on Bad Bunny, which goes beyondour conversation, which you can
see@rashadrobinson.com in which hetalks about this, this notion about,
you know, you, you have to takeadvantage of this, of this moment.
I mean, the, the head of the,the title of the newspaper
piece was Bad Bunny did his job.
(45:54):
Will we do ours?
It is not like we can stand by like,Ooh, good, bad bunny solved the problem.
Speaker 3 (46:02):
Mm-hmm.
Eric (46:03):
Of culture.
No.
What are we gonna take outta that?
How are we gonna take advantage of thatinstead of watching the other side, you
know, turn a million viewers of kid rockinto some kind of spectacle on its own.
So let's, let's remember to takeadvantage of the opportunities and to
understand that presence isn't power.
Kirk (46:25):
Yeah.
It's a, it's a, justseeing it is not enough.
The fact that people saw it's notenough, it's gotta move forward.
Well, Eric, what a great conversation.
And again, Rashad, thank you somuch for all the work you're doing
with everything you've got going on.
Eric (46:37):
Well, I think your point about Minneapolis and all of these
things in the context of the extremechallenges that people are facing in
this country, understanding how tonot just build power, but to do it in
a way that is attractive, that bringspeople along and gives people hope.
It feels to me like the cruxof the message that Rashad
is carrying these days.
Kirk (46:57):
Yeah.
So exciting.
Well, thank you again,um, Rashad for coming on.
Let's hear it's so generous for you.
Give us the time.
Please rush out to pick up frompresences to power, how to take on
the fights that matter and help win.
And Eric, you've done it again.
You've done it again.
This is a great conversation andI'm so glad we got to be part of it.
Eric (47:14):
Well, that was a great one.
Thanks very much to Rashad and I hopefolks will check out his website and
check out his books and sign up to hisnewsletter, which is really, really great.
Uh, he does seem to be able tocapture a particular moment and
give it context to give meaning.
So
Kirk (47:29):
yeah.
Eric (47:30):
Thank you again to Rashad.
Kirk (47:32):
Thank you, Rashad.
Thank you for everyone.
Thank you, Mr. Brown, and wewill see you next time on.
Let's hear it.
Okay everybody, that'sit for this episode.
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAli, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music,
Eric (47:52):
our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation,
Kirk (47:54):
and please check out Lumina's Terrific podcast.
Today's students tomorrow's talent, andyou can find that@luminafoundation.org.
Eric (48:02):
We certainly thank today's guest and of course, all of you,
Kirk (48:05):
and most importantly, thank you, Mr.
Brown.
Eric (48:08):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Kirk (48:11):
Okay, everybody, till next time.
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