Glen Galaich on Why Big Giving Falls Short

Glen Galaich is the CEO of the Stupski Foundation — and he just wrote a book that bites the hand that feeds him and serves it up in a 236-page meal.

Control: Why Big Giving Falls Short, out today, makes an argument as simple as it is explosive: when a donor takes a tax deduction to give money away, they've made a deal with the public. That money isn't theirs anymore. But the system we've built lets donors park billions in foundations and donor-advised funds indefinitely — dribbling out 5 cents on the dollar while the rest sits on Wall Street going absolutely nowhere.

Glen isn't an outside critic. He's a sitting foundation CEO who spent years reinforcing every rule he's now trying to break. Eric read an early draft, argued with him about it, and told him his central framing was too polite. Glen ignored him. They pick up that conversation here.

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Episode Transcript

Kirk (00:00):
Welcome to.
Let's Hear It.

Eric (00:01):
Let's Hear.
It is a podcast for and about thefield of foundation and nonprofit
communications produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No relation.

Kirk (00:12):
Well said Eric.
And I'm Kirk.

Eric (00:14):
And I'm Eric.
Let's hear.
It is sponsored by the Kenneth RaininFoundation, which enhances quality of
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dynamic future for all San Diegans.

(00:35):
Check out their amazingly goodpodcast Stop and Talk, hosted by
Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
You can find them at stopand talk podcast.com.

Kirk (00:43):
You can find, let's hear it on any podcast subscription platform.

Eric (00:46):
You can find us online at, let's [e-mail].

Kirk (00:49):
And if you'd like the show, please, please, please rate us on Apple
Podcasts so that more people can find us.

Glen (00:55):
Let's get onto the

Kirk (00:56):
show.
So I've realized after all this timethat you've just been laying in.
Wait for me.

Eric (01:01):
I am laying in.
Wait for you.
What am I,

Kirk (01:03):
what I, last time you revealed, last time you revealed
you didn't edit for the podcast.
That saved my career.
Yes.
And we talked about it.
And it's true.
You saved my career.

Eric (01:12):
Excellent.
You owe me one career.

Kirk (01:15):
Just so, just so we could get to this episode when you could end my career.
Because the conversation that we'reabout to have, and I wanna ask you,
'cause I'm looking at, I'm lookingat countdown clock right now.

Eric (01:27):
Yes.

Kirk (01:28):
What, what are we?
13 hours.
13 days, seven hoursand 29 minutes from it.
This moment,

Eric (01:33):
right?

Kirk (01:33):
What are we, 13

Eric (01:34):
People are listening to our voice.

Kirk (01:36):
Yeah.

Eric (01:37):
This is D-Day.
This is the day.

Kirk (01:40):
This is the day, yes.
So we're 13 days away from the day.
Today is the day happen.
So to set this up, becausethis may be, this could be it.
We're gonna have this conversation,this book is gonna come out and
then it's gonna be all over.
That's right.
Everyone's gonna get fired.
There's nothing else that's gonna happen.
This could be it.
This could be

Eric (01:56):
it.
What day is it?
You ask me.
Today is the day that the book controlWhy Big Giving False Short by Glen
Gallic of the Stusy Foundation arrivesin your whatever at your bookstore or
your something, something in release.
You can purchase it.
This is also the day, bythe way, that you'll listen.

(02:19):
You'll hear me in stereobecause I am taking over Glen's
podcast to talk about his book.
So we're in competition.
I'm in competition with myself today.

Kirk (02:30):
Yeah, that's, that's what you like to do.

Eric (02:32):
Overexposed.
I've been overexposed.
I haven't been overexposedsince, since 1982.

Kirk (02:37):
So March 17

Eric (02:39):
today, today.

Kirk (02:41):
Control why Big Giving Falls Short will be released by Glenn
from the Stubs Ski Foundation.
And please, you can goto steps ski.org/control.
Imagine that and find all about it.
Anywhere you get your books, we hope youhave one down the street that you go,
uh, you go immediately to and get it.
But this is so, my goodness.

(03:03):
There's a meal here.
There's a meal here, and we'regonna have to talk about some rules
of the road when we come back.

Eric (03:08):
Yes.
And disclaimers for disclaimedto Glen in the conversation.
But I disclaim now to all of you,if you are saying, oh, Eric is
a shill for Glen because he'ssponsors this show, the answer is
you're just gonna have to trust me.
I would've had him on anyway.

Kirk (03:23):
Well, you're

Eric (03:23):
just have to trust.
If you don't trust me,you're not listening anyway.
So there.

Kirk (03:27):
Okay, everybody.
Let's, let's, let's get into this.
So this is Glen Galles with Derek on.
Let's hear it.
Uh, let's listen, let's come back.

Eric (03:36):
American philanthropy is sitting on $2 trillion, and while nonprofits across
the country are laying off staff cuttingprograms and wondering if they'll survive
the year, most of that money is parkedon Wall Street going absolutely nowhere.
My guest today thinks he knows whyGlen Gallic is the CEO of the Stubs Ski

(03:58):
Foundation and his new book Control.
Why Big Giving False Shortmakes an argument that is as
simple as it is explosive.
The money in America's foundationsand donor advised funds doesn't
belong to the donors anymore.
It belongs to the public.
And the entire system we've builtexists to keep donors in control of

(04:19):
money that stopped being theirs themoment they took the tax deduction.
Now, Glen.
Is not an outside critic.
He's a sitting foundation, CEO, whospent years reinforcing every rule.
He's now trying to break this bookis his conversion story, and I should
tell you, I read an early draft.
I argued with him about it and I toldhim his central framing was too nice.

(04:43):
He ignored me.
We're gonna talk about that.
Glen Gall.
Welcome back to, let's hear It.

Glen (04:48):
Oh my gosh.
I am.
Electrified right now.
That is the greatestannouncement, uh, promotion.
How do I, where do I, where do I get this?
How, where do I get the tape?
Oh, I hear It's on apodcast called Let's Hear

Eric (05:03):
It.
Download the show and write it downwith a piece of, with a pencil.

Glen (05:06):
Wow.

Eric (05:07):
Welcome back.
So I was just thinking you beenon the show before and I was
saying, oh, that was recent.
That was four years ago.

Glen (05:13):
Yeah.
Which is crazy.
Yeah, and I was, at the time,I was just a wee bit podcaster.
I'm not, you know, nowit's our daily existence.
Eric, you are a co-hoston Break Fake Rules.

Eric (05:25):
I know.
So

Glen (05:26):
this is, this is fun.
This is,

Eric (05:28):
this is fun.
We have to disclaim, we have to, yeah.
A, a, a, a large pile of disclaimers.
Disclaimer number one.

Glen (05:34):
Yeah.

Eric (05:34):
Conflict of interest.
Number one.
You're a, you're a funder of this podcast.

Glen (05:38):
Yes.
So that, that we paid a lot forthat announcement you just made.
Thank you.

Eric (05:43):
But I will say to anybody who happens to know me and, and
happens to understand whether or notI have integrity, I try to, and I
would've had you on this show anyway.

Glen (05:53):
Well, that's very nice.
And, uh, I, I agree.
You have enormous integrity,and I expect you to challenge
me on every point in the book.
And not shy away from the power andcontrol of a funder over your product.

Eric (06:07):
That's, that's right.
The, the awesome controlthat you, you wield over.
We

Glen (06:13):
try

Eric (06:14):
the, the other thing.
Well, here's a, an interesting thing.
Yes.
Disclaimer number two is that, and Ialready mentioned it, you had offered your
early draft to me to read and respond to.

Glen (06:24):
Yes.

Eric (06:25):
Which I did.
Yes.
Now, disclaimer number three is Ihaven't actually read the final book.
It's not out yet.
I have ordered it through mylocal independent bookstore.

Glen (06:32):
Wow.

Eric (06:33):
It will drop.
Thank you.
I I, I spent a small amount of themoney that you gave me to sponsor this
show to, to funnel back into your book.

Glen (06:42):
Oh.
That's how it all works.
That's philanthropy.

Eric (06:45):
Aye.
Yay.
So the law, that's Phil,that's philanthropy.
The hypocrisy

Glen (06:49):
Yes.

Eric (06:49):
Is bubbling right now.
So, but we will try to earn.
Back.
Any respect we might have lost in thisfirst, uh, three and a half minutes.
Alright, so now

Glen (07:02):
hold on.
I do wanna point out one thing.
I hate to interrupt you 'cause Please,I know you got, you've got an important
topic to get to, but I do think peopleshould know that you suggested a,
an alternative title to the book.

Eric (07:13):
I did.

Glen (07:14):
And I believe it was, it's not your money after all.
Now stop it.

Eric (07:18):
Something like that.

Glen (07:19):
Was it?
Something like that?
Yeah.

Eric (07:20):
Where's that effect?

Glen (07:21):
I did not go with that.

Eric (07:22):
I know

Glen (07:23):
you didn't.
Um, it, it was a, itwas a very close second.
You can imagine the teams ofmarketing geniuses that sat around.
The, the whiteboard with that titleand control next to each other and
thinking, which one do we go with?
It was close.

Eric (07:37):
I, I

Glen (07:37):
understand.
But we stayed.
We stayed with control.

Eric (07:39):
The book is called Control Y, big Giving Falls Short.
Oh, and by the way, one more little thingis that my co-host, Kirk Brown, at the
end of our conversation with you and Kirkand I then of course have this little
conversation that's right with each other.
That's what I call the blah blah.
Kirk said, oh my

Glen (07:53):
goodness,

Eric (07:54):
Glenn, write the book.
You can go back and listen to the tape.
He said, write the book.

Glen (07:59):
Oh, at the last one?
The one we did four years

Eric (08:01):
ago.
Yeah.
In 2021.

Glen (08:02):
Oh my goodness.

Eric (08:03):
He said, write the book.

Glen (08:04):
Oh my goodness.

Eric (08:05):
So

Glen (08:06):
Kirk, I can only imagine what the blah blah is gonna be this time.
Is he gonna be like, maybethat wasn't a great suggestion.
I gave him No,

Eric (08:13):
no.
Kirk is gonna yell and scream.
Like that was my idea.

Glen (08:18):
That's interesting.
Well, that is interesting becauseI've been working on the book for
about three and a half years, soI'm just giving him more evidence.

Eric (08:26):
Well, as I've called Kirk, the Tom saw.
Of whatever podcasting.
'cause he just gives, he tellsme to do things and he sits back
and watches as I paint his fence.
And, and apparently he, he is some kindof subversive Tom Sawyer for you too.
He, he told you to write a book and
it's

Glen (08:41):
powerful.

Eric (08:41):
You went ahead and did.
It's

Glen (08:41):
powerful.
Yeah.

Eric (08:42):
Well, let's, let's get into this a little bit.
Okay.
So that was four years ago andyou were starting to fate on
what philanthropy does right.
And what it moreimportantly could do better.
Uh, and, and you have written this book.
What has changed foryou in these four years?
How have you brought these ideas together?

(09:04):
What coalesced in your own mind, whatgot you off your duff to really take
a a, a depth charge to philanthropy?

Glen (09:13):
Okay, so the main thing I wanna really lead with is that.
This is a book that's that.
This is gonna sound really boring,but I happen to think it's, it's
actually a very interesting book, but,

Eric (09:23):
oh, I'm sure it's gonna be spectacularly

Glen (09:25):
interesting.
I'm gonna use a word that's gonnaprobably make people kind of go, okay.
But it is an important word, andthis is a book about the system.
The system in which we all play a role.
And that's the thing I wanna point out.
While everything you said in youropening is true, and this does this,
there's a strong orientation towarddonors and the people who support them.

(09:47):
I ha I have empathy for everybody in this.
And at times in the book you may bewondering, does he still have empathy?
But the reality is I do.
And we are in a system that weall play a role and that's how I
want to really kind of set it up.
And the podcast we do break fake rulesthat Eric is a big part of now, is
really trying to encourage people tobreak those fake rules that systems.

(10:12):
Get us to follow the legal ones.
You have to follow, Eric and Ialways have to remind you of that.
You have to follow legal laws,but the rest of it is really
normative and practice-based.
So to, to your question, I got toa place where I really, I got into,
certainly around the time that wedid the last, let's hear it together.

(10:33):
I was at a place where I was reallythinking deeply about why it is the
case, as you said in your opening, thatso many trillions of dollars are sitting
in foundations and not going to charity.
And I have to tell you, the more I'vegotten into this, writing the book after
the book, thinking about different waysof talking about the book and really

(10:54):
paying attention to the world around us.
It's just gotten even.
And the word worse is, is, is, youknow, pretty, pretty strong word, but
it, it has, it's all, it's, it's, it'sreally showing up to me like the matrix.
I feel like I'm sitting in front of ascreen with weird symbology coming down
in front of me all through the day.
And I can read it, I can see it, Ican see the system, and, and you can

(11:15):
see the roles that people play in it.
Um, so that's really at theheart, heart of the book.
It's a story.
Uh, it's also, it's a story of peopleplaying their roles in a system.
It's a story of people breaking outof those roles and trying things
differently, whether it's stukey,other donors, uh, and friends.
And, uh, that's kindof where the book goes.

(11:37):
So there's a whole bunch in inside that.

Eric (11:38):
Well, you talk about what you call the, the mindset of control, which
is that donors hold onto power overmoney that's really not theirs anymore.
Right.
Uh, I, I consider it moreof a problem of control, but

Glen (11:49):
yeah.

Eric (11:49):
Can you talk a little bit more about this control thing, seeing as how it's
somewhere near the title of your book?

Glen (11:55):
Yeah.
So again, I'm gonna try to, I I wasback in, you know, many, many years ago.
I, I, I fan, I fancied myself an academic.

Eric (12:04):
You do have a PhD. You are, I should, I should
have called you Dr. Gallic.

Glen (12:07):
Yeah.
Again, I fancied myself an academic.
I don't, I don't really speak to that

Eric (12:12):
much anymore.
You're not a very fancy academic though,for somebody who fancies since stuff.

Glen (12:15):
Well, I try to be, you know, I'm wearing a nice jacket today.
Oh.
Um, I. So this is gonna sound academicywhen I say that, that we as a society have
have allowed and have encouraged throughwhat I call, you know, a permission
structure, have allowed and encourageddonors to act in a way, into control.

(12:38):
You know, it's interesting,this goes back to Mr.
Carnegie, if you read his writings, hemakes the argument that people who really
understand how an economic system operatesand thrive in that environment are clearly
the smartest people on the planet, right?
And they should decide what, what therest of society, the dumb people get.

(13:04):
And one way to do that is to ensure thatthis is the part where Carnegie sounds
good, is that they should give away theirmoney and give it to society and help
the dumb people so that they can survive.
That they should not hoard and amasswealth, that they should give it away.
That is to this day, the drivingethos behind philanthropy.

(13:25):
Now, you know, no one uses words like dumband ultra smart, but it is underlying it.
You know, for example, there, thereare some, there's a very wealthy
philanthropist who has a lot offoundations across the United States who
invented an auction platform where I getto sell my old Star War figures, and he
made so much money at doing that, that hehas lots of foundations and he's taken on

(13:48):
with his wife a lot of causes from humanrights to economic policy to democracy, to
the media, and we appreciate that from asystemic standpoint, because he's done all
this great stuff with auction platforms.
Do those two things go together?
Is he the right person tobe making decisions on that?

(14:11):
That's for you to, to decide fromthe conversation in the book.
And to your question, where doesthe mindset of control come from?
We have said to people like him, youdeserve to give the money away as
you would like to, and you deserveto put it into a really nice tax

(14:32):
instrument we call a foundation.
And you deserve for doing that a massivetax exemption and you deserve for doing
that to create the governing documents,the laws of that organization to put
yourself in as chair of that foundation,your family members as supporting board

(14:54):
members to that foundation, and youwill determine where that money goes.
The trick of this whole thing,which you, you hinted at, is the
moment he takes that tax benefit.
In my opinion, he signed an agreementwith the American people, that he
will be a public steward as thegoverning chair of the foundation.

(15:16):
He will act in a way thatbenefits the public as the
public would like it to be done.
And that's not how ittypically goes at that point.

Eric (15:24):
Alright.
So as the sitting foundation, CEO, who'swriting a book that says, the system
that created the thing that pays you,that created the thing that pays me.
And, uh, yeah.
A lot of folks in the nonprofit world and,and foundations is busted that it is based
on a premise that needs to be altered.
How's that working out?
How, how's that, how's thatlanding, you know, in the Tony,

(15:48):
uh, clubhouses of foundation, CEOV?

Glen (15:53):
Yeah.
You know, that's what I wasgetting at earlier is that
we're so enmeshed in this thing.
It, it's interesting we're, I'venoticed, especially as I. I on
occasion say some critical thingsabout how the sector operates.
You mean,

Eric (16:07):
uh, hourly.

Glen (16:09):
And it's interesting if I say things that are like, love it.
Awesome.
I get a lot of positive responses on mysocial medias from my peers, but if I
ask something or state something that'snot quite in alignment with, I think the,
the, the narrative, if you will, that's a,that's a word people use a lot these days.

(16:31):
Yes.
The narrative.
Uh, I get a, I get crickets andI think for the most part until.
Some of the, some of the playersout there who have quite a
bit of status and stature.
If this book ends up becoming one ofthose books that people talk about,
they're gonna have to respond to it andI'll look forward to how they respond.

(16:53):
I'll put an invitation outthere for anyone who strongly
disagrees with me in the sector.
Please write as much as you wantto and need to about what you
disagree with me on 'cause I wouldlove to engage in that debate.
But for I can tell you thegeneral approach to criticism
of the sector is ignore hope.

(17:16):
It goes away and keeps saying things that.
Fit the narrative and I cansay more to that, what that is.

Eric (17:22):
Well, one of the many joys of this book, not the least of which
is that it makes me crazy becauseyou're right about so much of it
and a lot of it is are things that Ihadn't really fully considered for.
The reasons that you say that we have kindof been habituated into thinking that you
can take the tax tax deduction startedfoundation and then get to decide all
the rules with that tax preferred money.

(17:43):
Another delicious thing about thisbook is that there are, you kind of
relay conversations and you kindagive us a little fly on the wall of
the CEO EO thing and conversationswith people who are upset.
This one guy was whispering, whisperingabout his donor in an empty room to you.
Yeah, yeah.
Colleague goes who was pushedout his foundation or her
foundation for not fitting thetech billionaire so-called brand.

(18:06):
And for me the, the brain went.
Directly to that old Joe Kleinbook about politics, way back when.
That was, for a while hewas considered anonymous.
He was trying to figure outlike right, who's who, who wrote
it, who, who are the people.
So I, I have a feeling that thekremlinology around some of the
stories that you tell will be intense.
Are you ready for that?
Are you ready for people to like,ooh, what are you, you know, which,

(18:27):
which secret are you giving away?
That kind of stuff.

Glen (18:32):
YYY yes.
As you can imagine, as we, we, Isay we, 'cause there I have this
very talented developmental editorworking with me the whole way through.
Who, who's kind of the, every timeI'd write something, it's fun when
I write something on LinkedIn.
Claire Callahan, who some peopleknow as communications, Claire of

(18:55):
the director of Comms at Subs Ski.
Often when I cross a certain line,taps me on the shoulder and says,
you crossed a line and I justwant you to know you crossed it.
So I'll leave it up to you as tohow you want to deal with that.
Heidi also did that, but in a differentway, and it, it was in stuff like this
where I would write some somethingin the book and she would come back

(19:16):
and play devil's advocate, like, doyou, is that, first of all, I don't,
I don't think you're making any sense.
Number two, you're very angry.
You need to calm down.
It's time to bring the empathytablet back into your brain.
And on this topic of who's in the bookand what I talk about in the book.
90% of the stories are true stories.
90% of it is what people haveshared with me and we have done

(19:38):
our darnedest to anonymize it.
Because I don't want people to beafraid that talking to me is gonna
be, is gonna end up on, you know, ina book every time they talk to me.
Most of the people that I spoke to,unless I just experienced it right in
front of me, gave me permission to shareit, but very much wanted it anonymized.
And you know, Eric, actually the funnything about your question, I think about

(20:02):
all the time, I dunno if it's funny,it's actually terrifying, is that, is
that people are so fearful of talking,but these are really not, I mean,
they're behind the scenes things, right?
And they are.
But in the world that we livein where there's so many threats
for so many reasons, this isjust not a threatening issue.
Speaking openly about, I mean,look, look, you might lose your

(20:23):
job and these jobs are great jobs.
There's no doubt about it.
I make that really clear book.

Eric (20:28):
They definitely come with a lot of free, uh, things in their fridge.

Glen (20:31):
Yeah, it's nice.
So you don't wanna lose that.
You go
thirsty.
You don't, you don't wanna lose that.
And you know, great.
You get to be in plenarysessions on stages and you,
you get to wear cool jackets.
But the thing is, people arevery fearful in the sector.
They're very fearful of rejection,being called out, retaliated against.
So that story you'retalking about is true.

(20:56):
I, I was standing in a gigantic room,empty room, and he, he was sharing
with me his experience with someonehe'd known for a very long time.
And he was saying some ratherderogatory things, but he could,
there's no one around at all.
In fact, he probably shouldhave been thinking more about
talking to me than anyone else.

(21:16):
And he was whisper.
I could not, I was like, I'msorry, I'm not following you.
Which is just a we just us.
Here he was.
It was like he was worried thatthere were microphones all around
going straight to the donor's ear.

Eric (21:28):
Wow.
Well, we have so much more to talk about.
We're gonna take a very, very quick break.
Okay.
We're gonna talk in the second half, we'regonna talk about what are we supposed to
do about this, and let's, let's talk alittle bit more about your, one of your
favorite topics, which is perpetuityand, and the other, which is, love it.
What do we, what, what should thesefoundations be doing with all that
money that they're sitting on?
So we'll be right back withGlen Gallic right after this.

Kirk (21:51):
You're

Eric (21:52):
listening to, let's Hear It, a podcast about foundation and
nonprofit communications hostedby Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Break Fake Ruleswith Glen Gallic, CEO of the Stubs Ski
Foundation, as he chats with inspiringleaders in philanthropy, government
media, and more about breaking the fakerules that don't work so that we can

(22:13):
build a future that does Check themout wherever you get your podcasts.
And now back

Kirk (22:18):
to the

Eric (22:18):
show.
And we are back with GlenGallic, his new book Control.
Why Big Giving Falls Short, I hope isgoing to put off a few depth charges
into philanthropy, but also shake upa way of thinking about how we, how we
approach philanthropy in, in particular,some of these like great big, you know,

(22:43):
fake rules that philanthropy advances.
One of which of course is shouldfoundations live forever and you are
firmly on the side that they should not.
Can you tell, give us yourquick take on perpetuity.

Glen (22:57):
Oh boy.
First I just wanna commenton the death charges.
I love this sector, I love theopportunities we have in this
sector and where this book isdifferent than, say, winners.
Take all, if you're unfamiliarwith it, this was, this was the
depth charge that hit the sectorin 2018 from a non-IRA DDoS.
He as a journalist, threw the depthcharge into the water, got on his

(23:19):
boat and drove away and drove.
He uh, what do boats do?
They float.
Anyway, he left the scene.
He had every right to do that.
I, you know, that's his job as ajournalist report, let you decide, I'm
sticking around as long as people have me.
This entire book is about tryingto get to your question, trying
to get more impact in communitiesthat desperately need these funds.

(23:41):
That's it.
My question from the beginning has beenand still is, how do we get more money
out there to these communities and givethem voice in the process in some way?
So.
Perpetuity is, in my opinion, one of thosesignificant barriers, bricks in the wall

(24:01):
that prevents the money from coming out.
I think it's probably the biggie.

Eric (24:05):
Hmm.

Glen (24:06):
I think it's the biggie, the result of all these things we tell
ourselves within this narrative.
I'll stop there 'cause you wanted a quickanswer, but it is, we can go through
it, but there are so many aspects tothe concept of perpetuity that are
so irrational to me and so counterto what we're all trying to achieve.

Eric (24:26):
Well, okay, so your, your book is screaming to me for some policy
changes, the ways that we treatphilanthropy and the money that
philanthropy you take, the tax deduction.
Do you have two or three things thatyou would change about the system if you
could waive your Glen Gallic magic wand?

Glen (24:46):
Okay, so let me just say as a disclaimer, I'm nervous
about policy work in the sector.
Nervous about it.
And because it depends.
There's so much involved inwho gets to make what in rules.
We saw an attempt at a significant,well lightly significant rule
change last year with an attemptto put attacks on the earnings,

(25:08):
on the portfolios of foundations.
I think it's totally appropriate for theAmerican people to start asking, why are
we giving wealthy people so much money togive away when they don't give it away?
Right?
That's fair.
But I'm nervous about whodetermines the policy, all that.
So this book really is at its coreabout the one thing we all have the

(25:32):
power to do, and it is change our minds.
We can change our minds.

Eric (25:37):
Okay.

Glen (25:37):
And that is what I'm really calling for in the book
now from a policy standpoint.
If people don't change their minds andthese monies start to pile up and they
are going to pile up, research showsthat with the current transfer of wealth
from one wealthy generation to whatwill be another wealthy generation,

(25:58):
as that transfer happens, money'sgonna go into more tax exemption,
money's gonna go into more tax savings.
We're gonna see these foundationsand donor advised funds amass $18
trillion in the next 25 years.
I wonder, will Americans stand for that?
If the budget stays somewherewhere it is now, which is probably
unlikely in 25 years, you will havetwo budgets worth of capital sitting

(26:23):
in these accounts doing things thatare probably making the world worse.
So that's, that could require policyif we don't change our mindset.
And so that's really whatI'm pushing in the book.
Some policies that we could consider aregiving away as much as you earn, you know.
If you earn 13 to 20% in 2025, you'rerequired to give that out in 2026.

(26:50):
Other policies could be, you and Ihave talked about this, you do not
get the tax exemption until the moneyactually reaches the donor organization.
That's how the rest of us are treated.

Eric (27:00):
Yep.

Glen (27:01):
And for most people, they don't even get a tax deduction for being charitable.
They only need to incentivizethe wealthy to give away money.
So those are a couple of things thatwe could see that might incentivize
more money going out, but I, itstill would only scratch edge.
And I think there's so much more thatcan be done if we just shift our mindset.

Eric (27:17):
I thought you were gonna squirm outta my question, but you didn't.
You came back and youactually answered, I came back

Glen (27:21):
to

Eric (27:21):
you.
It's a very proud of you.
Uh, let's,

Glen (27:22):
but that's kinda my approach, Eric.
I go all the way out, you know,if we're in San Francisco, we go
all the way out to Omaha and thenwe come back to San Francisco.
I, I, we'll get back to you.
Just hang in there,

Eric (27:33):
but it's not very fuel efficient, but, but it works.
Let, let's talk about all that money thatthese foundations are sitting on you.
You've also talked a lot aboutthe investments that foundations
make and the money should beused for good and not for bad.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour own experience at St.
Stub Ski?
Yeah.
In confronting these,uh, let's call 'em on.

(27:54):
Comfortable truths about how doyou invest money and where does
it go and how do all that stuff.

Glen (28:00):
Yeah, there's some really irrational and really challenging aspects to wine
to be in perpetuity, and one is you haveto earn at least on average, at least
5%, if not 6% every year, to ensure thatwhen you give away 5% you get it back.
That's of course way below whatmost foundations will earn.
Why is that?

(28:21):
Because they are in crazyhigh risk investments.
It's not Wall Street, actually,but we had not much in Wall Street.
We had stuff in hedge fundsthat I didn't even understand.
I didn't know they were, I hada spreadsheet in front of me and
I'd look at the spreadsheet andit would say recovering economies.
Whatever that is.

(28:41):
I went online, we wereon in the midst of COVID.
We weren't in person for our investmentcommittee meetings, so it was a chance
for me to like, while they were going onabout investee talk, I would look on the
screen and just kind of go through thewebsites of our various fund managers.
I found out that three of themwere in the Grand Cayman Islands.

Eric (28:59):
Oh,

Glen (28:59):
so think about that one, right?
We are a tax dodging entity,investing in tax dodging entities.
We are undermining government activityfirst by taking away the taxes,
second by taking away the taxes.
So that, that was really stunning to me.
And we had some casino stuff and soyou could say, well, that's Stu Ski.

(29:22):
They were clearly just doing darkstuff, but I can promise you promise.
I don't even want to know.
Actually.
I do want to know, but I'm, I knowit's gonna be like one of those
where you kind squint your eyeswhen you look at the balance sheet.
Where the big dogs have their money.
I can't imagine where Gates isinvested, MacArthur, all these
guys to be able to crank out thekind of returns they're getting.

(29:45):
Then of course, very few reallyput anything into impact investing.
They'll do a carve out of a few percentagepoints, but the rest of it is in stuff
that is most definitely harming humanbeings at greater volume than the amount
we put out in grants by far nine to one.

Eric (30:02):
So what did you do at dsky?

Glen (30:04):
Divested completely when the opportunity arose.
So that that really meant that we, youknow, when I came on, Joyce and the other
board members were strong believers andwe need to make money to give money.
That is the, that is the underlying tenetof how we think in the foundation sector.

(30:24):
Is that a bad intention?
No, not at all.
To intend to give, make money.
To give money.
It's kind of the.
There's the altruism folksthat believe that way.
There are many othersthat believe that way.
It's kind of a tenant of what webelieve is important to philanthropy.
But what happens when, what thatgives you permission to do is ignore

(30:48):
what you're invested in because it'sgonna go to good things when it grows.
I got to a place where I was like,Hey, look, we, it's too risky.
Everything we do is toorisky in the for-profit side.
And when Joyce had passed away, and manyof her board members had left, new board
members came on, I said, Hey, would anyonebe open to just divesting completely

(31:10):
out of anything that makes money?
And guess what we did?
And guess what the response was?
So the fund managers, when you givethem money, they take it right away
and they, they, they're ready to go.

Eric (31:20):
Right.

Glen (31:20):
But when you ask for it back before they want to give
it back, well that's a process.
It takes time depending on what you'rein, if you're in some really crazy
private equity stuff as we were,they do not have to give it back.
Right.
Do not Until they think it's time.
So we sold all of that on the secondarymarket, which we know, which is a

(31:42):
process, but it worked and we are, wemoved everything into cash essentially.

Eric (31:46):
Wow.
Wow.
That's incredible.
So it's just sitting on, inon, in what I mean, T-bills and

Glen (31:52):
Yeah, exactly.
Money markets sitting in T-bills,it still earns a little money.
'cause if that's somethingyou need, you can do that.
But what we really found excitingwas we moved about 30 million of
it in no interest loans to variouscommunity lenders so they could
earn the interest for themselves.
Right.
We didn't need it and we just asked themto please give it back to us in five
years so we can pay salaries and things.

(32:14):
'cause it was operational.
That's been an incredible success.

Eric (32:18):
Wow.
Is there any, I

Glen (32:19):
strongly encourage it.

Eric (32:19):
Is there anybody else at your size that's doing that, that you know of?

Glen (32:23):
I don't.
Most do pri i, the famous PRRIprogram related investments.
Right.
They have to, they're tryingto get some percentage back.
They have to impress theirinvestment committee people that
they are going to get money back.
So that idea of no interest,which is the winner in this story.
It's one thing to do a PRI andI think it's many do Ps, lots of
Ps out there, and that's great.

(32:45):
But if you can do it without any intereston it, where there's no interest in making
money, you really, I mean, it dramaticallychanges the picture on the other side.

Eric (32:55):
And the PI is you'll invest in an organization or you'll make
a loan or something like that.
Yeah.
And you'll, you'll take a return on it.
Usually three or 4% That's belowmarket, but it's still That's

Glen (33:04):
right.

Eric (33:04):
Something and

Glen (33:06):
Yep, that's right.

Eric (33:07):
And you're saying,

Glen (33:08):
but what if you don't?
What if you don't?

Eric (33:09):
Right.

Glen (33:11):
And that there are some, so many creative, creative ways that.
Some of these lenders have used themoney and in some cases they've, you
know, like all cases they're, theyare charging interest on their end.
It is nowhere near what the commerciallenders charge, and they are using
that funding for their own operation.
That's the challenge of A PRI is thatyou're giving it out to loan and that
person's gonna loan it too, but they don'ttend to pay their own operations with it.

Eric (33:34):
Right.

Glen (33:34):
And so anyway, that's another conversation, another conversation

Eric (33:38):
for another.
Maybe you do another book on that.
What, what are two or three kind ofrealistic but ambitious things that you
hope happen as a result of this book?

Glen (33:47):
So I want to be really clear up front for people that know me,
they know me as the spend down guy,

Eric (33:53):
right?

Glen (33:53):
And that's because I love the spend down model.
There's no, I can't, you know,when we talked four years ago, you
asked me, can you see a scenariowhere you wouldn't spend down?
And I said, I can,

Eric (34:04):
right?

Glen (34:05):
That has not changed.
It's only gotten more reinforced.
And so, but this book is actually notabout spending down as an objective.
It is a reality.
I truly believe that if you are in thisto give money away, and that's what
you're in it for, and you are in it togive money on mission and you're in it
to give money in a way that the communityneeds it, you cannot avoid spending down.

(34:30):
So, so now I'm gonna break myown rule that I just set out.
Yes.
I would see it as a huge success if ahigher percentage of foundations go into
spend down, not because they should,not because that's the win, but because
they will need to by necessity to be atruly public community engaged steward.

(34:56):
So what I mean by that is,let's just do this one thing.
If you go to any organization and you say.
I want to give you $10.
Do you want it?
They're probably gonna say yes.
They're not gonna say, wellactually, here's a better idea.

(35:17):
Why don't you keep the 10?
We'll take 50 cents on the 10and we'll use it this year.
In fact, if you were really goodabout this, you're gonna earn on
that 10, on that nine 50, you'regonna save back in your account.
So how about if you give us a dollar50 spread over three years, you are
gonna grow to like that 10, thatthat nine 50 will probably grow

(35:40):
in your account to like 13, $14.
And then you, we'll come back to you inthree years and we'll ask you for another
dollar 50 over three years while you growthat money for, I don't know, somebody,

Eric (35:53):
wow.

Glen (35:53):
That's a, I don't think that's how,

Eric (35:54):
that sounds like a great deal for the nonprofit, doesn't it?
Who Everybody wins

Glen (35:59):
it is that, and that is how the system works.
It's that simple.
What if.
We did it differently.
What if you said, do you need $10?
And they said yes.
And you said, okay, here it is.
So to do that means it can't betied up in recovering economies.
It can't be tied up in hedge funds.
You have to keep it out ofthat harmful stuff and make it

(36:22):
available to the organizations.
And if you're doing allthat, you are spending down.

Eric (36:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Glen (36:29):
And so that, that's, that's it.
There's plenty, there's a, there's achapter in the book on spending down.
I think people may be a littlesurprised with how I approach that
chapter in that I don't, again, it'snot the out, it's not the objective
of the book to get you to spend down,although it is a decent outcome.
I'm basically trying to convince you asyou read that final chapter of the book,

(36:50):
that it's okay, you're gonna be all right.
Right.
If you need a hug, I'm alwayshere and I'm not, I can't say I'm
good at giving hugs, but I am.
I will try.
Because I believe so much in the factthat this money needs to be in motion.
And if we've ever seen evidencefor it right now, right now,

Eric (37:08):
well, this, it needs

Glen (37:09):
to move.

Eric (37:09):
This book is a great big hug to all of the nonprofit organizations out
there who rely on the resources thatfoundations have that are sitting on,
and if any, foundation with a, withinthe sound of our voice, here's this,
the understanding about putting themoney into the communities and into the
issues that you care about, that that is.

(37:32):
Ought to be what you're inbusiness for, not to live forever.
And I, I think that, Imean, the book is terrific.
I can't wait to read it again.
I, well,

Glen (37:40):
thank you for all your support, Eric.
You've been amazing.
And your help,

Eric (37:43):
congratulations on it.
It's, it's control.
Why big giving fall shortdrops on March 17th?
I'm going to, if you're hearing this,it's, it is quite possible that today
is the day the book, uh, came out.
Wow.
We're gonna really try and line that up.

Glen (37:55):
Wow.

Eric (37:56):
Wow.
But, but you know, wehave, we have constraints.
We don't have fancy producerslike some other people I know.

Glen (38:02):
Is that right?

Eric (38:03):
That's

Glen (38:03):
who are they?
That's those people.
They sound like trouble.

Eric (38:05):
They are.
Glenn.
It has been so much fun havingthese conversations over the years.
It's been really fun,co-hosting your show.
The, the log rolling is,is kind of dizzying, but
congratulations on this book.
Congratulations on your work.
Thank you for everything.
I don't, I I'm, I'm speechless.

Glen (38:25):
Well, I really back at you.
I, you know, it all began, Eric, withconversations in the hallway at Hewlett,
and I've learned so much from you overthe years and I'm just grateful for
all the support you have provided.
Your feedback was definitely taken in.
You made it sound like Iignored all of it at the start.
You had a major impact on thisbook, and I do hope that it causes a

(38:46):
conversation and shifts some minds.
That's really what we're after, and weall still want to be friends in the end.
Thank you.

Eric (38:53):
Well, Glen Galles, thank you again.

Kirk (38:58):
And we're back.
So, okay.
I wanna know when I startscreaming, it's not gonna be, now
I do wanna say thank you to Glen.
'cause Glen is a benefactor of thispodcast and we're enormously grateful.

Eric (39:08):
Yes, we are.

Kirk (39:09):
Um, Glen was also on this podcast years ago when, who said, write your book.

Eric (39:15):
Oh, who

Kirk (39:15):
said it?

Eric (39:15):
You have to back away from the microphone because you're gonna pin it.
People don't need to hear that.
Kind of a abuse you said, said, but Glenis said you told Glen to write the book.

Kirk (39:25):
Glen has written the book.
So I, we do need a ground rule herebecause we have, we have the copy.
We've both gone through it.
Yes.
The, the, whatever you call it.
And so I don't think we could,we can't give away the book.
We don't have enough time to do that.
But, but how specifically do weget to talk about the content?
Because, because Glen.
Shows receipts.

(39:46):
Glen, yes.
Works this through.
And in fact, maybe I'll just turn, letme turn the floor over Eric, because
you can carry us through the high pointsand, and I, I loved how you said that
he had sent you an advanced draft andyou got really upset because you thought
that Glen hadn't gone far enough.

Eric (40:02):
Yeah, I thought he was being a little wimpy.

Kirk (40:04):
Whoa, goodness gracious.
He went pretty far.
So, so where do you wanna take this?
'cause there's a lot of directions I couldpoint us in, but, but where, where do you
wanna take this and how should we do this?
So, you know, we do justice to the contenthere, which is so important, but we
don't actually give away anything about

Eric (40:16):
everything that's in it.
And then people will buy it anyway.
Because we're not gonna,we're not gonna read the book.
This is not, you know, one of thosethings where you sit down and you
read through a book all night in anart gallery or something like that.
No, but we can say as much as we wantabout what's in this book, I promise
you that, and you should buy it anyway.
If you care about philanthropy,about where it can go and about
the rules, and, you know, hisshow is called Break Fake Rules.

(40:39):
And, and it's about breaking thefake rules about philanthropy
that you can only pay out 5%.
There's all these rules that inphilanthropy we have, they're,
they've become rules and mm-hmm.
And he's saying that's they'refake, they're bullshit.
And, and we have to break themif we're going to actually
use philanthropy to do well.
And so that's the thesis of thisbook and book was infuriating

(41:00):
to me in all the right ways.
And it was a reminder to me, andthis was something like I worked
for in a foundation for 11 years.
I understand what foundations are, Iget how it works, but, but this notion
that once you set up a foundation andtake a, a tax deduction, that it's not
your money anymore, didn't occur to me.
It didn't occur to me and and now it does.

(41:22):
And so this idea, if you want a big,great, big, beautiful tax deduction,
then you have to give away the control.
You have to give the money away.
No strings attached.
You sure you get to pick whogets it, but then you can't
tell them what to do with it.
You just have to give them the money.
And instead what people do is they setup these big foundations, they take

(41:44):
the tax deduction and then they dribblethe money out with an eye dropper, 5%,
5 cents on the dollar, and the 95% ofthe money which sits in some kind of
investment account, which is often, ifnot invariably invested in stuff that
is against the things that you're makinggrants to stop, which is another one
of those things that blows my mind.

(42:08):
And look, I know some veryimportant foundations that
still have that investmentstrategy, and I disagree with it.
But the idea that you can do that.
Doesn't make sense 'cause we're takingall this money outta the system.
We're giving these richpeople a huge tax break.
And then they get to go, you geta little money, you get a little
money, you don't get anything.
Mm-hmm.
You get it.
Only if you dance around threetimes and do that dance that

(42:31):
you do when you're happy.
That kinda stuff.
And look, Kirk, you've been agrantee of foundations, so you
know what I'm talking about

Kirk (42:38):
Until, until this podcast, until, until this steps

Eric (42:43):
a drop.
But that strategy that,like, it's, it's wrong.
And so I came up with somepolicy ideas that mm-hmm.
That Glenn said, I couldn't say onhis show, but I can say I'm on my show
even though he funds me, but it's fine.
So I came up with three, three ideas.

(43:04):
Okay.
Policy things.
Okay.
Two of them are pretty good andone of 'em, I have no idea what I'm
talking about, but the first one.
Is that you should only beable to get a tax deduction
for no strings attached grants.
So if you put your, slapyour name on the building,

Kirk (43:19):
no

Eric (43:20):
tax deduction for you, if you have the some narrow project restriction,
no tax, like no soup for you.
If you wanna name a building,knock yourself out, mazeltov, but
you don't get a tax deduction.
Your money, you can do whatever youwant with it, but I, Mr. Taxpayer,
don't have to give you a discount.

(43:40):
Same thing for these like narrowproject, very defined things.
Oh, you need to hire, you know, 11,seven people to do this little project
about whatever reading for people who arebetween eight and 11 and a half years old.
And then you pull the money the nextyear and then those people are stuck
holding the bag that's gotta go.

(44:01):
So that's it.
Ooh.
Here's another one.
You can set up your foundation.
You don't get the deduction untilthe money goes out the door.
For general support grants.

Kirk (44:11):
Hmm.

Eric (44:11):
So you set up a billion dollar foundation, no tax deduction.
You put out a hundred million dollarsa year in general support grant, a
hundred million dollar tax deduction.
How clever you could do that?
That would be wonderful that,that, and that would encourage
people to get the money out thedoor instead of sitting there.
90%, 5% of which is doing nothing.
And the third one has to do withthis impact investing, taking the

(44:32):
money and using it for bad andas opposed to using it for good.
I don't have a good answer for that.
Some smart person outthere can figure it out.
But the idea that you would, thatyou would invest this tax deductible,
tax advantage, tax preferred money inthings like military and prisons and
stuff like that, just makes me nuts.
So

Kirk (44:52):
well, and this is, that's the bridge to all of the ground that
Glen is traveling with this book.
And I will say, can we just pause fora moment and just reflect that Glen
has actually just written a great bookhere, apart from the content, but the
way he gets into it, the way he, thisis full of his first person narrative
around his work within philanthropy,his work with his foundation.
And so just from that standpoint, ifyou've never had a chance to do what Eric

(45:14):
has done, which is like live inside thewalls for 11 years, this is a chance to
actually get you into the walls, get,get you inside the door into a story
that most of us wouldn't have access to.
This is where it gets really interestingand also very uncomfortable though
because, you know, if you've worked in andaround major philanthropy, what Glen is
putting out is that we are, we are askingeverybody to fight as much as they can

(45:36):
for this 5% of the dollars that come out.
Right.
And maybe some foundationsare much more aggressive.
They're, you know, they'remaybe delivering 5, 6, 7, 8, 9%.
The point Glen makes though,however you structure that math.
These philanthropies areactually growing over time.

Eric (45:52):
Right.

Kirk (45:53):
So the dollars are sitting behind locked doors.
Yeah.
And however you're structuringthat payout, the, the actual
philanthropies is growing over time.
One of the things I love that he doesat his book, by the way, is he, he gives
us kind of this walk through the historyof how this evolved in the United States
and some of the sensibilities behind it.
And, and I think it's fair to say thatone of the key sensibilities is that

(46:15):
judgment, decision making and control.
Yeah.
Lends happily titled name, firstbook that lives on the capital side.
If you're on, if you're on the askingside, well, if you, if you align with what
we think is important, we, we can talk.
Yeah.
You've got no control.
But the, what's important is sittingon the capital side and, and this is

(46:36):
where I get concerned for all of us.
'cause this feels a little bit like, I'mnot gonna mention it, I'm not gonna name
it, but it's been all over the news.
This whole thing about like a, wow,maybe something really secret was
going on for all these years and allthese people were involved with it
and we're all getting these littleglimpses, and now how toxic is.
But this notion that the five, you mean.
I'm not gonna say it you, the notion,the notion that the 5%, we get to

(46:57):
debate how the 5% gets spent, butthe 95% don't even look at it.
No, don't even look at it.
And, and this is, thisis for eyes, me eyes.
This is for me the mostinteresting and troubling part.
Glen brings the spotlight in, Glenbrings the flashlight and says, let's
look at what's going on with that 95%.
And honestly, Eric, that part.

(47:20):
Read the book just for those pieces.
And he, he mentions it in theinterview when you start talking
about the caveman islands.
Yeah.
In the context of yourinvestment vehicles.
I'm out at that point.
I just need a long vacation.
I'm just out.
I can't be part of this.

Eric (47:34):
So he did this crazy thing.
I, I have a few, a couple otherthings I wanna say first, and then
I'm gonna talk about the crazy thing.
So he called the bookThe Mindset of Control.
Mm-hmm.
And my, my biggest critique of himwas, I said, the book should have been
called, it's Not Their Money anymore.
So that every time anybody askedyou about the book, you got to
say what your thesis was, whichis, it's not their money anymore.
And he talks about the mindsetof control, which I thought was.

(47:56):
Like a, a garden party talk.
Mm-hmm.
This is about the problem of, of control.
The catastrophe of control.
The injustice of control.
But no, he's, he is nice enough to nottry and piss off philanthropy too hard
by calling it the mindset of control.
That was my big thing now.
Oh.
So the thing that he did was,so he found out that they were
invested in the Cayman Islands.

(48:17):
They were invested in all these otherplaces that he didn't want and in
things that he didn't care about.
So what'd he do?
He took all the money outand he put it in T bonds.
Right.
Bills.

Kirk (48:27):
Right.
Four percent's enoughbasic interest is enough.

Eric (48:30):
Yeah.
Whatever.
And, and so like, that blew my mind.
And then he started, he, then he startedjust lending the money out at no interest.

Kirk (48:40):
Right.

Eric (48:41):
To folks.
So he took, but the crucial thing,money put it into the community
in, in interesting ways that.
You know that nobody does not like that.

Kirk (48:49):
And the, and the crucial thing he's doing there, by the way that he names
and he talked about in your interview,but I just wanna bring it up again.
He says, our first job is notto make money off of this money.

Eric (48:59):
Right?

Kirk (49:00):
And, and, and, and that is such a headline sensibility that
most philanthropies their first jobbefore Penny is out the door is to
actually take the asset and grow it.
Right?
That's the first job.
Job.
And just from their lens say, thisis where everything gets upside down.
Everything gets upside down.
If 95% of what you're doing is tomake that thing bigger, then this is

(49:21):
where all the problems start from.

Eric (49:21):
So I had a conversation with an investment advisor re recently,
and I said, Ooh, this guy at thisfoundation, he took all the money out
of all these ridiculously, whateverthey're called, boutique investments
and hedge funds and whatever the hell.
And he put it into T TBIs and cash.
And that person went, that's insane.

Kirk (49:44):
But I love Glen talking about we're doing this.
Teaspoon version of philanthropy.
I wanna do a tidal waveversion of philanthropy.
And the tidal wave is what happenswhen you give all of, when you do
the spend down, which KY is doing.
Glen gives us the comparative numbersthat I think it's something like,
you know, teaspoon size givingwould've been St. Ski delivering

(50:04):
$160 million or something like that.
But because of how they'redoing their spend down, it's
gonna be $600 million, right?
Comes into market.
And so that's the scale.
When you, when you look at that95% and you say, Hey, let's,
let's put that into market.
Um, all of the numbers changein terms of what the level of
impact you can get to might be.

Eric (50:23):
Well now also think about all this money that's sitting there right now.
What do we say?
What is it?
$2 trillion right now?

Kirk (50:29):
$2 trillion.

Eric (50:29):
And he said something like, in the next 25 years.
That foundations and donor-advisedfunds could amass 18, $18 trillion.
Get to

Kirk (50:40):
$18 trillion.

Eric (50:41):
You can actually get some stuff done with $18 trillion.
That's not chump change.
And unlocking that money, that'sjust money that's sitting in
these charitable accounts.
We're not talking about whatever,you know, gross domestic product.
We're talking about moneythat is sitting there earning

(51:01):
interest, but not doing anything.
It's, it's sequestered, right.

Kirk (51:07):
Yeah.
And so there's the financial componentof this, but there's also, you know, um,
Glen talks about the wall of control thatgrows up around these philanthropies.
And so there's, there's anotheruncomfortable part of that.
It's not just the money where it sits.
It's not just where it gets invested,but it's also who gets to have a say,

Glen (51:24):
right?

Kirk (51:24):
And how that money is allocated.
And, and honestly, I mean.
Glenn just goes through this chapterin verse, so again, you've gotta,
you've gotta read the book, but onegeneral topic that that just comes up
around it is that it's, it's both thesort of familial aspects of how that
control gets directed in terms of howcertain foundations are, are sorted out.
But also there's a notion of,of what professional power

(51:48):
looks like in this context.
You know, because you're a professional,you've learned to work the system.
And then, then there, there's anotherelement of this too, which is when
we start labeling philanthropiesthings like strategic philanthropy,
now we're, now we're really rollingbecause, 'cause the whole notion of
where that strategy lives, how it getsdetermined, what are the criteria that
it meets, again, which side of that.
Asset wall is it sitting, issitting at the center of the

(52:10):
table when we talk about strategy.
And Glen's saying it's, it'ssitting on the 95% threshold.
It's not sitting on the 5% threshold.
So, so this control that was beingdiscussed and described is actually
working in so many differentdimensions, and Glen does, does just
an awesome job of laying all that out.

Eric (52:26):
Yeah.
It, I tell you, he's,he's an interesting guy.
He was a radio news talkguy for, for several years.
So he had to fill four hours of radiotime talking about political talk.

Kirk (52:44):
Yeah.

Eric (52:44):
And that he honed his ability to synthesize, let's just say.

Kirk (52:49):
Yeah.

Eric (52:49):
And, and to come up with things that are provocative and interesting.
And the books absolutelypositively does that.
Like I said, it, it reallyjust opened my eyes to a lot of
things that I should have known.
You know, I get around, I talk to people.
I have a, a job in this field andI still kind of didn't see it.
So I, I won't be too mean topeople who also didn't see it.

(53:12):
Like I didn't.
But I do think that now that the cat'soutta the bag here, I would hope that he
doesn't get the kind of crickets that I'mscared he's gonna get within philanthropy.
'cause I think he even mentioned thathe, he kind of referenced this in some,
some meaning and like people were reallyinterested in changing the subject
that that ought not to happen anymore.

(53:33):
And if you think about it, peopleare not starting new, large endowed
private foundations anymore.
They do not see it as the best vehiclefor bringing about social change.

Kirk (53:47):
Yeah.

Eric (53:48):
And if, if you're in the philanthropy business, it is a
business that needs to adapt in orderto meet the needs of the people that
these places were set up to meet.
And I, I really, really hope thatboards of directors are going to start.
Sniffing this stuff.
I mean, our conversation with AliciaAriaga a couple of times ago earlier,

(54:10):
you know, was, was about this disconnect.
The funders just don't get it.

Kirk (54:14):
Absolute,

Eric (54:14):
absolutely.
And, and if this book doesn'tkind of put a cherry on the top at
their cake, I don't know what does.

Kirk (54:20):
So get ready 'cause I've got a couple great ideas.

Eric (54:22):
Ready.
Oh, oh, no, no.
Oh, ideas where you had theideas and other people do work.
Is that the idea?

Kirk (54:27):
So number one, number 1, 1, 1 subtle thread in this, and we
agree sitting 95% of the asset isbeyond reach, doing what it does.
And everybody talks about the 5%.
We, we, we agree that, that that's right.
Problematic.
I do think one, one thingwe need to sort out is.
How often does more money equal moreimpact in how you get to that threat?

(54:51):
Because, 'cause I think it almost, we takethat as a given, and I think we have so
many evidence cases where that's clear.
We wanna release moredollars into the field.
You made the point, it's like there'sall these resources out there, yet
all these nonprofits are, are, youknow, um, collapsing or, or seeing,
you know, given how, and actuallythe, the, the anecdotes from the book
focused on c told the exact same story.

(55:12):
You know, that COVID happens inso many philanthropies pulled
back instead of leaning again.
Right.
So I think, so I think there's somework to be done about just ensuring
that, as we say, we want more moneyinto the field, we really can draw that
line to more money equals more impact.
But the other word that I would loveto see Glen work with a little bit is
this word community, which is all overthe book because one, one of this is,

(55:33):
this is put forward as the sort ofalternative is that a more community
centered approach would make sense.
And I think that there'sactually something there where.
You know, we use community as anormative tool, but we also use
community as a systems conceptwhen we actually get into the work.
So here's the idea.
There's a sequel Glen,

Eric (55:49):
oh, there's an idea in this.

Kirk (55:50):
There's a sequel Glen,

Eric (55:51):
a sequel.

Kirk (55:52):
Glen Glen has a sequel, and this is the, and the sequel
is called Beyond Control.
And then Glen is gonna go out andhe's gonna look at all the community
centered philanthropy resources.
He's gonna look at allthe trust-based resources.
He is gonna draw from his own experience,and he's actually going to create
a real workbook centered roadmapfor how philanthropies can do this.

(56:13):
Push more money into the center ofthe table, link that to community
driven outcomes, but actuallydefine community in, in, in a
nuanced way so that we put some reallegs behind what that word means.
'cause I mean, think, you know, youand I work on a project together
that, that, um, I believe could.
Change everything in America.
But the notion of going to people andsaying, Hey, we need to make community

(56:35):
the center of our consideration,is really, really difficult for
people that are out their headsaround what that word really means.
And until you kind of look at that ina systems centered way and see how all
the dimensions of community can stackup to become this scalable, stackable
resource, which by the way, I wouldargue our opposition has actually done
a better job of holding that sensibilitythan we have maybe for the people that

(56:55):
share the values that we, we put forward.
So I think there's a sequel here.
So I want this book to do well.
I want everybody to read it.
And then I want G Glenn to sit downimmediately, sit down immediately,
and start writing beyond control.
Because 'cause, 'cause this hasgot to be operationalized, 95%
of the value that's gonna accrueto this $18 trillion of resource.
Is going to sit beyond, uh, reach unlessit actually gets operationalized in

(57:20):
terms of how it moves into the field.
And I, I couldn't imagine a betterperson to do that than Glen.

Eric (57:24):
I was Right.
You were going to makework for other people.

Kirk (57:27):
Well, come on.
So, oh my goodness.
Glen, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast.
It's Beyond Control,

Eric (57:34):
not Beyond Controlled.

Kirk (57:35):
I'm sorry, what?
Sorry.
This is the sequel.
Sorry, sorry.
So Glen, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast.
It's Control Why Big GivingFalls Short and it's gonna be
out March 17, which is today.
That's today, which is out today.
And please, please get your hands on this.
Read it, respond to it.
You can go to steps to getsteps.org/control and and see it.

(57:58):
And there's even a free chapter fordownload there if you wanna check it out.
You know, so,

Eric (58:01):
and when you're done, and now that we're done with this episode, you
can go over to break Fake Rules andyou can listen to me talk about the
book On his podcast we took over his.
His podcast and we talked about,about his book over there.
So we will hear actual foundationCEOs talking, not a couple
of schmos like us, but actualpeople who have real money, make

Kirk (58:23):
real decisions,

Eric (58:24):
see what they think about this concept.
That's us.
So that's, that's a, agood conversation too.
So I, I encourage youto go over there too.
This, this is how much we love each other

Kirk (58:32):
and break, break fake rules, come straight out.
It's a chapter from the book too.
So he's got a whole platformnow to, to work on this stuff.
So that's great.
Well, Glen, thank youso much for coming on.
Let's hear it.
We're so excited.
Eric, thank you for doing this on let'shear it then do it on Glen's podcast too.
And, and please pick upthis book, engage with it.
Glen, what a contribution.
And if you never hear from us again,it's because we spoke the truth

(58:53):
and now we can't work anymore.

Glen (58:54):
But, but I'm happy to, I'm happy to do it.
So, Glen, thanks for doing this.
And, and Eric, thanks for, thanksfor doing this for, for us.

Eric (58:59):
What a way

Glen (59:00):
to

Eric (59:00):
go.

Glen (59:01):
Let's go.
Go with a peg.
Okay, everybody, we'll see you.
Hopefully we'll see younext time and let's hear it.

Kirk (59:09):
Okay everybody, that's it for this episode.
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAli, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music,

Eric (59:23):
our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation,

Kirk (59:25):
and please check out Lumina's terrific podcast, today's students
tomorrow's talent, and you canfind [e-mail].

Eric (59:33):
We certainly thank today's guest, and of course, all of you,

Kirk (59:36):
and most importantly, thank you, Mr.
Brown.

Eric (59:39):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Kirk (59:42):
Okay, everybody, till next time.
Oh God.
Can we do that again?
So I can say it again?
Yeah.
Jesus Christ.
God damn it.
Okay.