Making Meaning of the Madness With Kristen Grimm

Kristen Grimm is back—and she’s making Let’s Hear It history as the show’s first three-time guest.

In this episode, Eric and Kirk dive into Kristen’s latest thinking on how people interpret what’s happening around them, why facts alone don’t change minds, and what this moment of chaos means for nonprofits, philanthropy, and public-interest communicators. Drawing from her travels, her work at Spitfire Strategies, and plenty of hard-won perspective, Kristen challenges us to stop “fixing” broken systems and start imagining what we actually want to build next.

It’s a thoughtful, candid, and often funny conversation about trust, power, government, and how to create messages—and futures—that resonate beyond the bubble.

Follow Let’s Hear It, leave a rating, and help more people find the show.

Episode Transcript

Kirk (00:00):
Welcome to, let's Hear It.

Eric (00:01):
Let's Hear.
It is a podcast for and about thefield of foundation and nonprofit
communications produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No relation.

Kirk (00:12):
Well said Eric.
And I'm Kirk.

Eric (00:14):
And I'm Eric.
Let's hear.
It is sponsored by the Kenneth RaininFoundation, which enhances quality
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Promoting Early childhood literacy andsupporting research to cure chronic
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We are also sponsored by the PrevisFoundation, a foundation creating
an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.

(00:35):
Check out their amazingly good podcasts.
Stop and talk.
Hosted by Grant Hon and Crystal Page.
You can find them at stopand talk podcast.com.

Kirk (00:43):
You can find, let's hear it on any podcast subscription platform.

Eric (00:46):
You can find us online at, let's [e-mail].

Kirk (00:49):
And if you'd like the show, please, please, please rate us on Apple
Podcasts so that more people can find us.
Let's get onto the show.

Eric (00:58):
So, Kirk, we've started having you say, welcome in again.

Kirk (01:02):
Yeah, welcome in.

Eric (01:03):
I think we need to be more welcoming.

Kirk (01:05):
Welcome in.
Hey everybody.
Let's hear it.
Yeah.
But I've also noticed you startedin front of me in the cold open.
You're, if we're gonna do this coldopen, it's gonna be my cold open.
And that's fine.
I support it.
I support it.
It's like I know what it must've beenlike being on stage with you, being on tv.
It's like all of a sudden,why is Eric in my shot?
It's terrible.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Why is Eric?
Yeah, no one's great.
Welcome in.
Welcome in everybody.
It's, let's hear it.

Eric (01:25):
Being on stage with me is the worst kind of hell.

Kirk (01:28):
One of the favorite things.
Being on a podcast with you is awonderful kind of habit, so that's
a nice little counterpoint to that.

Kristen (01:35):
You're so cute.

Kirk (01:36):
Kirky.
Let's spend some time.
Let's spend some timewith some dinosaurs today.
Let's spend some time with some dinosaursof public interest communications.
What you about?
You're gonna hear whatcha you'regonna hear that phrase on this
interview, and I don't like it.
I don't like it.
You, you and Kristen self describeeach other as dinosaurs of
public interest communications.
I don't recall that.

Eric (01:54):
So it doesn't happen.

Kirk (01:55):
I recall it.
It happened.
It's gonna be, unless youtake it outta the end.
I just give you there and I, I,I'm gonna stridently push back.
Okay.
I think what we have ahead is a nuanced,interesting, thoughtful, oh my gosh.
Reflective discussion aboutwhat communications looks
like in the moment we're in.
And Kristen, because Kristen's avery competitive person, decided

(02:21):
that it was not okay for Kristen andLarry Kramer to be the only people.
As I, as I think I've got thisright, the only people who had
been on, let's hear it twice.

Eric (02:31):
No, that's not true.

Kirk (02:32):
Who is the other person?

Eric (02:33):
Christiana.

Kirk (02:34):
Oh, and Christiana, right?
So three people in this worldof 9 billion people, 10 billion
people who have been on.
Let's hear it twice.
Kristen said, no, there will be one.
There will be one who's been on.
Let's hear it three times.
And there's nothing that makesme happier here than to listen to
you and Kristen talk about stuff.
So set this up.
Reintroduce Kristen, and thisis an incredibly generous use of
Kristen's time to come back tolet's hear and talk with us about.

(02:57):
This work that Kristenhas been working on,

Eric (02:59):
my old pal and longtime colleague who I knew before the turn of the
century, Kristen Grim, who is thefounder of Spitfire Strategies, one of
the great organizations firms out there.
There's a lot of great ones andmany of 'em been on our show
and Spitfires right up there.
And uh, and Kristen, you're right,she's competitive and I don't think.

(03:21):
That she goes about and does awhole bunch of work just so that
she can get it on, let's hear it.
I do not think that that's true.
I think she is just indomitable,unstoppable, indefatigable,
a energizer bunny of ideas.
And she had a recent series that she wroteon the Spitfire blog about meaning making.

(03:44):
And we get into this conversation,this, this concept of making meaning
in public interest communications,in movements, in all of that stuff.
And that's what we hadthe conversation about.

Kirk (03:58):
And I'd say this is one of Kristen's many gifts, but it's such a.
Awesome one, which is the capacity todistill these concepts, put them into
frameworks that we can all understand,and then write and train on them.
And so this meaning making series,it's four different blog posts.
Please go to the Spitfire Strategieswebsite to check it out, and you'll see

(04:19):
all the content around what Eric andChrisner Chrisner are about to talk about.
So this is Kristen Grim, the founder andstrategist of Pit of Spitfire Strategies.
Let's hear it.
Let's listen and we'll come back.

Eric (04:33):
Welcome to, let's Hear It.
My guest today is noneother than the incomparable.
Kristin Grim, the founder ofSpitfire Strategies and wait
for the very long drum roll.
The first, third time guest.
Let on.
Let's hear it.
That is correct.
Now, Kristen, you first appearedon the show in April of 2019.

Kristen (04:56):
Yes,

Eric (04:57):
and it feels like it was yesterday.
We go back, it

Kristen (05:00):
was backstage at Frank.

Eric (05:02):
We were, and we go back way before that.
I think we go back tothe turn of the century.

Kristen (05:07):
It's true.
We have, we have been around a long time.
We have seen a lot.
We have a lot of wisdom.

Eric (05:12):
We have,

Kristen (05:13):
people are talking about lived experience.
They might be thinking about the dinosaursof public interest, communication,

Eric (05:19):
whatever was, I have forgotten all my wisdom.
Now I'm just running on, I don't know.
Something.
Well, thank you Kristen, so muchfor coming on to let's hear it.
It's always a joy to talk to youand to see you and thank you.

Kristen (05:32):
Always good to be here with you all.
I know you are always tackling theimportant topics, so an honor to
be your first, third time guest.
I know I will not be the last.

Eric (05:42):
Well, and you are coming to us from Bozeman, Montana.
Are you now?

Kristen (05:47):
Bozeman, Montana.
One of the flyover state.

Eric (05:50):
So I actually, I don't think I've ever fully asked you this question,
but why did you move to Montana?
It seems a little different.

Kristen (05:58):
That is what my Florida family always says too.
They're like, what?
In 2016 when President Trump won the firsttime, I didn't really see that coming.
So I loaded up my family and dogs andI bought a little Airstream trailer,
and I went out on the road for fourto five months out of the year.

(06:19):
Trying to really understandwhat was going on in America.
You know, how are peoplefeeling, et cetera.
And so, and I kept runninginto Bozeman, Montana.
I kept finding myself here.
And so in year two, went back out,another couple of months, kept finding
myself here in Bozeman, Montana.
So in 2018, I decided I woulddo six months and six months.
And mostly it was meant to be the sixmonths around summer again as a Floridian.

(06:45):
But when COVID hit, Imoved here full time and.
It is actually, first of all, stunninglybeautiful, but fascinating people.
Very interesting to be I, I've beenin DC for a long time, so it is really
good to be out in the communitiesthat people are often talking
about and actually be part of it.

Eric (07:05):
We will get to the topic of this conversation today, but it, it, I do
think it lays the groundwork for it.
So, which is why I asked the question.
'cause most people, if they wannalearn about what's going on in
the world, they read a newspaper.
Or they, I don't know, get a, asubscription to some like really trenchant
political thing, like the New Yorker,or, you know, or they read the New York

(07:29):
Times, or they listen to NBR and theyget, you know, some version of something,
but you get an Airstream trailer.

Kristen (07:39):
Yep.
I learned how to camp.
I learned about the greatestdemocratic institution in
America, which is a campground.
You know, you're all dealing with it.
You're all dealing with the mosquitoes.
You're all trying to getto the potable water.
So I think it's really good when thingsare up in the air, when you don't
understand it's good to not just a.

(08:00):
Download it from somebody else and adoptit without doing a whole lot of thinking.
And I think when things are happeningthat are really different than you
expected is to stop and say, huh, youknow, what's going on here that I am,
I'm missing and that I need to tune into.
So I, I, I think generally speaking,that's good practice for meaning making.

Eric (08:18):
Yeah.
And my guess is that your fellow campersdon't all just read the New York Times,
the New Yorker and listen to NPR.

Kristen (08:26):
They definitely do not, but they are highly informed about their own lives.
And one thing I really learned in thetrailer in particular was there were
definitely times I'd be in meetingsabout we gotta go out and communicate.
I can only imagine they'regoing on right now with.
Budget cuts and staff cuts and do folksout in rural counties, many of them

(08:49):
surrounding me here right now, do theynot understand it's their SNAP benefits.
They're gonna not havetheir SNAP benefits.
They need to understand, andthen I'm like, you don't get it.
Like they're so mad that they're onSNAP benefits that they don't think
like, oh, the government's doing.
This great thing for me, theythink they're on SNAP benefits.
People don't wanna be on SNAP benefits.

(09:10):
They wanna be living independentlyand inevitably you hear somebody say
in the meeting like, why are theyvoting against their own self-interest?
And what I really came to understand isI don't know what their self-interest is.
When I'm saying those words, I don't know.
They do know.
You know, and so then youhave to say like, okay, what
are, what are they voting for?
Let's get, let's get clearwhat they're voting for.
'cause I'm making a wholebunch of assumptions.

(09:31):
Um, and I, I probably am theleast qualified to do that.

Eric (09:34):
Well, you've now just written this series of essays
on what you call meaning making.
And my guess is that this set of essays.
Connects directly to that conversationthat you have with so many people about
why don't people vote their interestswhen we don't actually have a sense of

(09:55):
what they true those interests truly are.
Can you talk a little bit about whatyou mean by meaning making, and then
we can get into why you wrote thisseries and what you hope to do with it.

Kristen (10:04):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, meaning makingis a human process, so it's
something that we humans do andit's where we just interpret.
What's happening to createa coherent understanding.
So when everything's going crazy,right, eventually we have to
decide what does it mean for us?
And we're biologically disposed to that.
We're intellectually disposed to that.

(10:24):
Um, you know, it starts thoughwith our fight or flight, so like,
is AI coming from my job or not?
Right?
Like, immediately I'mtrying to understand this.
And so this is a process thathumans are constantly doing.
It's not like, oh, I landedon that and I'm good.
It's, we're constantlygetting different inputs or.
We see different evidence in, andsometimes what we've decided was
happening, we're like, actuallyI'm starting to get little signals

(10:47):
that that's not what's happening.
So again, you know, if I am back in 2016and I am thinking like Hillary's this, you
know, foregone conclusion, even though atthe time I was teaching in New Hampshire,
I was at the University of New Hampshireteaching, I saw signs up all over the
place around that, you know, all aroundthe campus and the neighborhoods that
I was in that said, we are deplorable.

(11:09):
And it was like, right then literallysigns are looking me in the face
telling me what actually the meaningmaking is happening in that country.
And I just, you know,met, I just ignored it.
I just was like, I'm like, oh,well that's, that doesn't match
up to like how I understand howthis world's gonna play out.
And then of course I had to be like.
Wowza, I gotta, I gotta step backhere and get, you know, my signals.

(11:31):
I gotta check in here again.

Eric (11:33):
Well, don't feel so bad, you and everybody else.
I don't think there were a wholelot of people, Ruth Bader Ginsburg
didn't think that Trump was gonna win.
James Comey didn't thinkthat Trump was gonna win.
Obama didn't like nobody then.
These are very, very smart people.
So a lot of folks eithermisread the meaning.
Or misinterpreted the making.

Kristen (11:54):
Both of those.
Yeah.
Like you don't reallyknow what's going on.
You know, you are sort of like saying,oh well these are, this is the world and
this is what's happening and so this iswhat the best thing is for the world.
And you like, wow, you just missed it.
It's not the best thing.
We saw it again with the most, I don'tmean to only talk about elections 'cause
I think there's lots of meaning makingopportunities, but when you think about.

(12:17):
Biden n Harris and just, I called it theYaha uh, election, where it was like the
economy's great Uhuh Yaha, Uhuh, but forthe people going to the grocery store.
You know, those are the signalsthat they're looking for and
they're like the, this is expen.
I feel like it's expensive sothe economy can't be so great.
'cause I'm finding it really expensive.
And it doesn't matter that you haveexperts or job reports or stock market.

(12:39):
Like they don't care.
You're almost like you'resaying this is how you should be
conducting your meaning making.
In fact, they're like,this is how I do it.
I say the same thing with crime, youknow, my friends tear their hair out.
When crime is going down, butpeople are more concerned about it.
And I'm like, you know why that is?
It's because like when I go back toDC, you know, and I go to the CVS, I

(12:59):
have to literally stand there in theaisle and buzz this doorbell buzzer.
And it takes forever for anemployee to come to unlock the
case and give me the deodorant.
And you're like, oh my God,we're under such siege.
We have to protect the deodorant.
Right?
And that is like somebody saying,this shit is outta control.
You know?
Yeah.

Eric (13:19):
And if someone, you know, doesn't smell so great, they'll
say, have you been to the CVS?

Kristen (13:23):
That's right.

Eric (13:23):
I didn't.
I'm just less patient.

Kristen (13:25):
Yeah.

Eric (13:26):
But so let's get into what, in a sense, it feels to me like a lot of
folks have misinterpreted the meaning of.
Of, of our society, of our culture.
How is it that Trump was ableto get elected, or how is
it that people don't vote?
Or how is it that young peopleare expressing themselves

(13:47):
in different ways and so on.
Can you take me through what yourapproaches or how you're helping people
understand how to really understandwhat the meanings of people are and
how to use that to advance good causes?

Kristen (14:04):
Yeah, well I think the first thing to think about is in a lot of
ways, meaning making was kind of seton a lot of big issues for a long time.
So if you know, you look at big.
Times like the end of World War ii.
You know, we talk about it a lot, orthe new deal, like in the US we talk
about these as very formative timeswhere, you know, we did decide that

(14:28):
there would be a social safety net.
There was meaning making around that.
There was lots of stuffculturally, politically right.
And then it was like, we are acountry that has a safety net.
And then we've sort of seen it erodeover time and like, well, who gets it?
And so.
Now the meaning making islike, you know, wait a second.
We, we've lost the thread on thatoriginal meaning making, which

(14:50):
you know, really came out of thedepression and an experience.
And the further you get away fromit, people are thinking about
it a little bit differently.
Um, so I think that what people have tounderstand, again, is meaning making is
something that's constantly going on.
And at the moment wejust have a lot of chaos.
And the chaos comes from,you know, lack of trust.
The chaos comes from, we havereally different solutions.

(15:12):
We even have.
Really different understanding of whatthe problems are that we need to solve.
And so I think, you know, you've endedup in this place where, and I wouldn't
have done this this way obviously,but if you look at an administration
that's just literally levelingprograms, like U-S-A-I-D is gone
overnight and you're suddenly like, wow.
Now for you and me, we've workedon these issues a long time.

(15:33):
I didn't think U-S-A-A-D wasour most effective institution.
I just don't think we're gonnado international development.
So I'm interested inhow we'll be doing that.
But suddenly that's where meaningmaking opens up is it used to be,
this was how you did developmentand great things came from that.
The global fund, like you thinkabout some of these things that
came from us having common meaningand then acting upon that meaning.

(15:55):
But eventually it erodes orit gets corrupted, right?
And then, and if you're not watching forit, suddenly it's under pretty serious
attack and you gotta find the new way.

Eric (16:07):
You said something surprising in, in your essay, you said, right
now many minds are open, although thatwon't last forever, and that seemed
to almost counter-intuitive to mebecause it feels to me like people are
hardening off against each other andwe are kind of going to our corners and
doing all that kind of tribal stuff.
Can you talk about why and how youthink minds are open and what and

(16:29):
what we're supposed to do about that?
What we can do about that?

Kristen (16:32):
Yeah.
Well, you have minds openingfor a couple of different ways.
One is that some things are possiblenow that were never possible before.
Um, you know, one of our, ourbest times of meaning making
was actually during COVID.
And you think about, you know, atthat point everybody was like, I
don't know if we can do telehealth.
I don't know if we can, you know,get services right to the door.

(16:54):
I don't know if we can allowrestaurants to deliver wine or if
you could do wine pickup on the curb.
Right.
Thank God we figured that one out.

Eric (17:00):
Yeah.

Kristen (17:00):
Um.
The truth was as soon as it wasnecessary, as soon as it was
necessary, we had to remake upour minds about what was possible.
Um, and I think we're in that samesituation now where like for the first
time in a pretty long time, even thoughwe've all seen the good governance groups
in our many decades of working, likeright now, people are really deciding

(17:23):
what is the role of government becausethey're having these different things.
And as much as you might wannabe tribal and whatever, you're
also trying to figure out.
Suddenly you can't go talkto a live person at a social
security office that's closed.
'cause you can only do itonline, you know, and you don't
get the service that you want.
You may suddenly really have strongopinions about that because the

(17:46):
government actually interacts withour life quite a lot and you're
about to see a pretty massive change.
So.
People are having to makeup their minds about stuff.
We, uh, you know, we sawa recent stat from Gallup.
It's at the highest ever.
79% of Americans right now are sayingimmigration is good for America.
So basically, for all that's happening,and for people who are like, listen,

(18:07):
immigration's a problem, we gotta getahold of it to, you know, these, these
deportations and how we're doing it,what's making it actually happen is people
have to think, they actually have tosay, what do I think about this Really?
And suddenly you're like,oh, well that's huge.
That 79% said it was good for America.
Like, you should go.

(18:27):
You should go work on that.
That's a good thing.
Go use that as a little springboard.

Eric (18:31):
Well, it, it absolutely inspired me in that I've been thinking a lot
about what happens, what, what comesnext and what does, I don't know, call
it project 2029 look like, but how,given that the states of the institutions
are what they are, and some of themwill not come back in anything close to
resembling what we remember them to be.
That there are some opportunities to.

(18:53):
Build new things and maybe evento create new coalitions and
partnerships and things like that.
And after the break, we'll talka lot more about how we put
meaning making into practice.
We'll be right back withKristin Grim right after this.

Kirk (19:10):
You are listening to, let's Hear It, a podcast about foundation
and nonprofit communications hostedby Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.

Eric (19:16):
If you're enjoying this episode, you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Breakfa Ruleswith Glen Gallic, CEO of the St. Stukey
Foundation, as he chats with inspiringleaders in philanthropy, government
media, and more about breaking thefake rules that don't work so that
we can build a future that does.
Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now

Kirk (19:36):
back to the show.

Eric (19:41):
Welcome back to, let's Hear It.
My guest is the amazing Kristin Graham,the founder of Spitfire Strategies
and the author of this series ofreally interesting essays about
what she is calling meaning making.
And we've been talking about howit is time, certainly to start to
take a new look at many of the.
Relationships and ways of doing thingsthat foundations, grantees and nonprofits

(20:07):
and consultants like us are working on.
Kristen, what is Job one?
What is the first, most interestingopportunity that you are considering
right now and that you're working on

Kristen (20:18):
right now?
I really wanna be thinking about.
Really big things that we're for, Ithink we spend so much time about what
we're against and, and as institutionsstart to either get attacked, taken
out, their power wanes because youknow it's past their expiration date.

(20:42):
I think some people are finding themselvesin blocking, but blocking to the point
of being an apologist for the status quo.
And I don't think the status quois working for a lot of people.
That's, I mean, that's reallywhat we're seeing in populist
movements all over the place.
And it's a thing to really pay closeattention to, is not like, oh, they
don't understand the importance ofdemocracy, or they don't understand
the dangers of authoritarianism.

(21:04):
What they understand is in their ownlives, things are not going so well, and
they're kind of done with the bullshit.
So we have to think about,well, what are we for?
And I think we spend so much timetrying just to take away the bad.
We're gonna take away thebad, but the question is.
Are we actually delivering the good?
So I think about the Clean Air Act andthe Clean Water Act, and think about that.

(21:24):
Back in those days, it was just a foregoneconclusion that, you know, in order to
have the economy, people could polluteas much as they wanted to pollute.
And people just had to sort of suck it up.
And then there's a bunch oflawyers who suddenly were like,
actually, I don't think so.
And they dream this incrediblevision where they were like,
I think we can actually.
Just make it so much better for so manypeople and we are gonna fight to do

(21:47):
these unbelievable acts that literallywere life changing and very lasting.
Right?
And so even if now they're on theropes or whatever, phenomenal.
And my question is, who'sdoing that thinking?
Because right now people wanttheir lives to be better.
That's what they want.
A lot of us are like, okay, wellwhat you don't want is this.

(22:08):
You don't want that.
Don't do this.
Let's remove this bad thing,as opposed to what's the great
thing that we're gonna deliver.
So to me, as we think about the role ofthe government, again, a conversation,
we don't get to have that often.
What is the role of the government andthen also what does it mean to have a
high quality life in America right now?

(22:30):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
If the American dream the way it was, is.
Wasn't ever right or now it's different,but the, there's still a touchstone
of what is a high quality of lifethat you know is not just material.
Those are great conversationsthat we get to have right now.
'cause people want those conversations.

Eric (22:50):
And when you walk down the street of Bozeman or come visit us
here in San Francisco and walk downthe street in San Francisco or Oakland
or, or other communities, are therethings that you are seeing that.
Really kind of resonate withall of these communities?
Or do you have different kinds ofconversations with different people?

Kristen (23:08):
Definitely different kinds of conversation because again, you
know, we're living very differently.
Um, whether you're in Montana, youknow, where we're just over a million
people statewide, like people outhere have a very independent sense.
Um, you know, a lot of it islike people make stuff out here.
Like, you know, you, you,you fix your own zipper.
Like there's not a cleaner out here whofixes a zipper and in San Francisco,

(23:31):
I mean, you all are like a wash andpeople who are ready to fix zippers.
But I say that because it's reallyimportant to know, well, what is
actually important to people 'cause,but people who live in San Francisco,
there's a lot of beauty out there.
There's a lot of culture out there.
There's a lot of counterculture outthere, which is unbelievably great, right.
You wanna be able to live that way too.
So you do have to have this flexibility,but I think you have to get into a space

(23:54):
where people are actually dreaming.
I read recently in Dan Brown's book, soI assume it's all based on real data.

Eric (24:01):
Of course.

Kristen (24:01):
Uh, the recent, uh, da Vinci code, uh, you know,
trilogy or whatever it is now.
But they talked about how when peopleare afraid, they become more selfish.
So I have, you know, I have people nowwho are like, let's strategize, let's make
people really afraid of authoritarianism.
Let's make people angry.
And I'm sort of like, I'm notsure I need a lot more anger.

(24:22):
Not, I'm just saying I don't knowthat I need a lot more of that.
So I do think we canuse meaning making now.
To actually talk about what is possible,what is possible with technology.
I think too often we get downinto these binaries like we
start doing, meaning making.
We're sitting with AI right now, right?
It's either gonna be the best thing everor the worst thing, and we're all dead.
Like is there really any middle ground?

(24:42):
So that's where the meaningmaking opportunities are.
What's that middle ground andhow do we make that good for us?

Eric (24:48):
And you can talk about building as opposed to fixing, which is I, I think
for me anyway, it's kind of a mind.
Space and for the longest time,philanthropy was in the job of solving
problems and fixing problems andthings like that, which to me feels
like not the way to go about it.
And it doesn't sound like that'sexactly what you are talking about.

(25:10):
Can you talk about how nonprofitsand foundations and others can think
about their work in terms of buildinginstead of fixing and what, what kind
of effect that mind shift may have?

Kristen (25:22):
Yeah, so on those two different concepts on, on building and fixing, you
know, Trabian, shorters of Be Me doesa really great presentation about this.
So, but I'm gonna make itreally short for y'all.
Um, but you should totallygo see him when he gives it.
But he does talk about, these aredifferent people, the fixers and
the builders, and he'll talk aboutit sometimes, like in a hurricane,
hurricane comes through and the firstpeople on the ground are the fixers.

(25:44):
They're there.
They're there to getthe electricity back up.
They've got the generators,they've got bottled water, right?
They're fixing, and theyuse all the rewords.
They're gonna repair, renovate,restore, re, re, re, re, re.
And they're super important.
Fixers are really important.
When there's been tragedy,trauma, fixers are good.
They get there fast, they'regetting things back together, and.

(26:09):
Then you have to look deeper thoughand say, okay, well do we still wanna
have, you know, all of our power linesabove ground, I got power back, but
maybe we're really vulnerable, youknow, community because of these things.
And this is where like 9, 10, 12 monthslater you end up with the builders and
the builders come in 'cause they're like,

Kirk (26:27):
huh.

Kristen (26:28):
With that new information about, Hey, with more extreme storms,
these things will keep happening.
Let's think about imagining it.
Totally differently.
How might we get our power in such a waythat it won't go down with every storm?
Totally different question.
And by the way, imagining isdifferent than reimagining.

(26:51):
When you're reimagining, you'realready putting yourself in a box.
Like right now we're gonnareimagine academic freedom.
Okay, well, I'm already on campus.
I'm already in the first Amendment I'malready in, which is very different than.
I wanna imagine a world where everyoneis free to have civil discourse
and incredibly diverse opinions.

(27:12):
Totally different.
I don't know, does that happen on campus?
Not happen on campus?
Is it around the firstamendment is on something else.
Suddenly you're in a really differentspace and these people are different.
So Rabban would would argue,they have a different mindset.
And what's interesting is.
Builders will walk away.
Like if you're sitting in a, in aroom and talking about, let's talk
about repair, renovate, let's restore.

(27:32):
They're like done.
Like we don't wanna do it the same way.
We wanna do it a different way, a new way.
And I think you're actually seeinga lot of people who want that.
A lot of people, I feel likethey've been left behind and
like isn't working out for them.
I think they actually like thepresident and Doge in other
people bias towards action.
They wanna feel like at leastsomebody's trying something,

Eric (27:50):
right?

Kristen (27:50):
At least somebody's trying something.

Eric (27:52):
So when you sit down with a client and say, all right,
let's make some meaning here.
Are there a couple ofquestions that you ask?
How do you get that conversation started?

Kristen (28:02):
Yeah, I think first and foremost we have to think about, well,
what do we wanna create meaning around?
So again, I think you, inimmigration, I think we just
really struggled with this one.
It's a really hard thing.
We we're nostalgic about immigration.
We are com country built on it, right?
We sometimes we commodify it,we need it for our economy.

(28:22):
Like we've tried a couple of differentthings and we're still here in
this place, which is pretty rough.
And mostly we're against the things.
That other people wannado around immigration.
But what we haven't sort of hadis this comprehensive view of what
does great immigration look like?
And I think because we've neverhad that, then we end up with these
unbelievably complicated bills that gettaken out purely on their size alone.

(28:47):
'cause there's so manythings to ki its over.
But I don't think, I can't saythis is the vision of a very
pro-immigration society that is popular.
That's the second part ofit that we can make popular.
'cause again, a big thing with meaningmaking is majority making, you know,
more than anything you wanna know, Iam going to do meaning making around
this, and then I'm going to get not 51%,but 60, 70, 80% agreement around it.

(29:14):
That's the other thing is, okay, so wheredo you see that being able to happen?
'cause if you can't see how topopularize it, then you're not
really gonna be doing great.
Meaning Nikki.

Eric (29:23):
What, so what do you think the best opportunity is right now to bring together
60 or 70% of people around anything?

Kristen (29:29):
I mean, probably role of government, but it's not gonna be
under the role of government tag.

Eric (29:35):
Mm-hmm.

Kristen (29:35):
I was just over in, uh, Copenhagen and, and Finland.
And so Denmark and Finlandare, are known as some of the
happiest countries on earth.
And we go over there fora foundation to find out.
You know what's going rightover here, like what are they
doing in their societies?
But one thing I find so interestingis people truly believe that the
taxes they pay, which are notinsignificant, the taxes they pay are

(29:57):
investments in their quality of life.
And they believe the government deliverson it that they actually are better off
because they put into the communal potthey get, and again, Denmark, they're
one of the richest countries on earth.
They have an incredible education system.
So they are getting those things.
Now.
I don't think we have that samecivic bargain going on in America,

(30:20):
but I think there's an opportunityto talk about communally.
What does it mean?
I mean, I think you and I have bothbeen in many meetings where people are
like, we have to sell interdependence.
Yes.
And we have to find a way to talkabout that that feels like, not
like, oh, you better be with otherpeople, or shit's gonna go down.
But rather what is possible whenwe all put our money in the same
pot and then we actually see it.

(30:42):
So to me that is a pretty hugeone because it really is about
a government that centers.
People's wellbeing, which Idon't think most people believe.
Now, the other thing I would also sayis I think that there's a tremendous
amount of ability, 'cause I think rightnow we have a lot of people saying,
why is life not good in America?
And a lot of people are giving us themeaning, making answer of it's immigrants.

(31:05):
You know, it's these criminals.
And in fact, a lot of it iscorporate greed and people really
don't like corporate greed.
But it, it can't just be themoney and politics thing, which I
think makes everybody's eyes glas.
But I do think that there'sa tremendous opportunity.
You know, and talking with a lot ofpeople about how do we actually talk about
that this corporate greed is not okay.

(31:25):
Like it's one of the main reasonsthat we have this growing inequality
and we've just never really landedon meaning making that was popular.

Eric (31:32):
Yeah.
I happen to agree with you completely.
All that efficiency that we weregoing to get when we got email.
All the money that was made fromthat efficiency went into the
hands of 10 or 15 or 20 people.
And that the benefit of that, thevalue of technology, was not invested
back into the people who helpedsupport it and even create it.

(31:54):
And I think the same is true with ourown sense of dread around ai because I
think we're all, I think they're gonna.
Take away our jobs and makea lot of money, and then
we're gonna, that'll be that.
So I, I, I totally agree with you on that.
Um, we, we just have a coupleof minutes left, but I have a
couple more questions for you.
You talk about this need to offerclarity through the chaos, and if
there's ever been a more chaotic timein my lifetime, I've blocked it out.

(32:17):
How do you offer clarityin this level of chaos?

Kristen (32:22):
I think you really have to say to yourself, I am a lighthouse.
I think there's too manypeople right now in the chaos.
They're like, oh, weshould do these things.
Then we'll have less chaos.
Guess what people don't want when they'rein the middle of chaos is just less chaos,

Eric (32:35):
right?

Kristen (32:36):
They actually wanna know through this chaos we could get here.
So I know that if I get through thisstorm and over this mountain, I am
going to be in this unbelievablybeautiful, wonderful place that I
really wanna be at with a lot of people.
Surrounding me that are important to me.
And I think we are not doing enoughof being that lighthouse of this is
where you're coming, not listen to us.

(32:57):
We can make it less chaotic.
Like, to me that is, that is so lame.
Um, and I just think a lotof times that's what we are.
We're like, you know what?
We're gonna, we're gonnamake it less chaotic for you.
I think what they, people wanna feellike is, we're gonna really listen to
you and we're gonna make it better.
Really better, not incrementallybetter, not a lot of excuses
better, like absolutely better.
And here are our big, brilliant ideas.

(33:19):
To do that.

Eric (33:21):
And let's just close with this question.
You are, uh, to my mind, anindefatigable, optimist in a sea of crazy.
What gives you hope?

Kristen (33:31):
I think it's actually that most people, even though sometimes
we have to read about the SiliconValley bros who are not, but most
people are also very hopeful, right?
They want life to be good forthem, for their children, people.
Really look for signs of hope.
One of my, my favorite pictures when Iwas in a trailer is I am sitting there

(33:53):
in my Hillary shirt and definitely veryvocally arguing with a guy in a MAGA hat.
And you can just see us going at it.
And you would assume we were justhaving this unbelievable political
conversation, which by the way,and no campground ever did.
I walk in there and say, hi, my, myname is Kristen and I'm a Democrat.
Um, but he and I werein fact fighting over.

(34:14):
What the fish were biting on.
Like we were really talking aboutthe flies and whether or not, you
know, which fly was gonna work.
And I do think we have anincredible amount in common.
And while there are divisive forces.
In fact, as people, we like to getalong and as people, we actually
do want things to get better.

(34:35):
We don't want them to get worse.
And so I think when we give people thingsto be four, that's really important.
So my, my own pet peeve on Saturdayand I did walk down to No Kings,
but I literally just wanted towalk to everybody and be like.
For the time that you created thissign and came down here and while
I'm glad you're in this community,these are five other things you

(34:57):
could have done that probablywould've made a bigger difference.
And again, I know that some of thisis spectacle and it's important,
but I think it actually negativelyimpacts people's agency, which is,
is this the only thing we can do?
To have the future we want.
So I wanna go back and I'll end onthis, uh, question you asked me, which

(35:17):
is, should we be problem solvers?
And I think we've gone so far in theproblem solving and a lot of times
we actually made people the problemthat we were solving that I'm sort
of wondering what if we spent thenext 10 years being future makers?

Eric (35:32):
Mm-hmm.

Kristen (35:33):
Instead of problem solvers.
What if we were future makers?
Already the meaning iscompletely different about
what we're setting out to do.

Eric (35:43):
Well, yeah, you are a lighthouse in our, in our field,
in our community, and to me, I, Ijust really appreciate your insight.
You are also just, uh, a energizer bunny.
You have new things that you'rethinking of and products that you're
producing, and, you know, Spitfire doesincredible work, so I just can't thank

(36:04):
you enough, Kristen, for, uh, being inthis business, for being my friend for.
All of it.
Um, just, you know, thank you.
And we will obviously, we'll, we'll putlinks to the essays and things like that
and to spitfire, but, uh, thank you again.
Thank you for being you, Kristen.

Kristen (36:20):
Thank you Eric for talking about one of my favorite topics.
I love getting a chance.

Eric (36:25):
Thanks again.

Kirk (36:29):
And we're back.

Eric (36:30):
Don't you wish, Kirk, that you had a little more enterprise.
Don't you wish you were doing?

Kirk (36:39):
Yeah.

Eric (36:40):
Right.
You're gonna, you're gonna breachthrough the thing and kill me.
No, Kirk is the hardest workingguy I know, except with the
exception of this podcast.
But

Kirk (36:48):
look, it's, it's not about hard work even.
It's about effectiveness and impact.
And I'm telling you, Kristen Grim.
An impactful person in termsof the work of this field.
And so, yeah, we have many guests.
I think basically every guest we'veever had has caused me to really
seriously reeva, reevaluate mylife choices in my, in, in my lack
of capacity and effectiveness.

(37:09):
But, but Kristen is bringing us alongfor a very interesting ride here and
there's so much in this discussionand, and I'm, I'm, I really wanna.
Not just take all the action outtathe room just by blah, blah, blah.
'cause this could be, there's just atemptation to do that on this topic.
So let me just pause andreflect on this part.

(37:32):
Kristen living in Boso,Montana for half the year.

Eric (37:34):
Right.

Kirk (37:35):
Is what

Eric (37:35):
Kristen, no, I think she's there all the time now.

Kirk (37:38):
Kristen does all the cool things, Kristen does all the cool things.
It's like I've been DCA, beenentrenched in this progressive, this
progressive communication space.
In fact, I helped.
Create it in different ways.
And, and now I'm just gonna, I'm,I'm, I need to see what it's like.
I, I, I was thinking aboutthe phrase touch grass.
As Chris was talking, I was like,Chris is like, I need to touch
the grass of all of America.

(37:58):
And I'm gonna do that in two ways.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna get my little, uh,my, my little RV and run around the,
my camper to run around the country.
To see what's actually going on, but I'malso gonna relocate to Muslim Montana.
What, what, what is notto like about this story?
I, I love that part.
Just that part we'll talk about to start.
Just that Kristen's doing this stuff.

Eric (38:14):
Well, it helps that, it gives Kristen access to
real, so-called real people.
Whereas many of us on thecoast are in the bubble.
Maybe we have a different version of realpeople, and my neighbors are real people.
It's true.
But my neighbors and Kristen'sneighbors may not be exactly the same.
And hey, look there, you could touchall kinds of grass in San Francisco.
There's a cannabis store,I think, on every corner.

(38:35):
So there's that.
I don't know what you're talking about.
No, no, no.
You're right.
Kristen gets out.
She asks questions she gets withfolks, she observes, she gathers
information, she, and then she putsit through that crazy brain of hers
and helps us make meaning in our work.
And I, I mean, I go all the wayback to the smart chart, which was

(38:59):
what, for me anyway, was the seminalcommunications training and planning
tool that I learned about how to docommunications strategy from that.
And from her, and, and she has justcontinued to, and, and Spitfire as a, as
an organization, has continued to createthese really valuable materials, tools

(39:22):
for all of us to be able to do our job.
And I think here she's askingkind of simple questions about
our role in trying to reach our.
Audiences trying to persuade, trying tomake sense, and, and trying to use that
as a way to advance all of our work.
And that's just gold.

Kirk (39:44):
It is.
But can I challenge your presuppositionthere that these are simple questions
because I think that when you do it,Kristen is committed to, which is
I'm gonna actually get out there andI, I, there's something going on.
And by the way, I loved, atone point in the conversation
you described to Kristen, how.
So many people get the news and I,and, and I was like, this is Eric

(40:05):
Brown, date of New Yorker justrattling off the greatest hits,
including reading the New Yorker.
But, but it was interesting, like,like you described all the ways that
people learn about the world and it'sreally based on what people read, right?
The sources that they,that they're reading from.
And

Eric (40:17):
Well, it used to be, now of course it used to be, it's now it's
based on the, the nonsense and thewhatever that people are being bombarded
with through their various channels.
It's interesting 'cause I, I, when we.
We talked about Jacobi Wilson.
I, I rattled around my newspaper,which sounds a lot like this.

Kirk (40:37):
Mm-hmm.
It's there, I

Eric (40:39):
can tell you it's, it's a real paper that lands on my front doorstep.
And not only that,every, this paper is not.
Customized to make a littlething go off in my brain, right?
They're not feeding me the stuffI wanna hear or read or, or see.
It's actually some version of anobjective presentation of things.

(41:00):
And I get to choose.
I get to curate the information, andI think that's this big, big issue
that we have right now, is that weare customizing reality for people.
And that's like, like you seeyou, you talk to two different,
I, my guess is that Kristen couldwalk down the street in Bozeman.
And the reality that a lot ofthose people, people perceive it.

(41:23):
Is, is, could not be less similar tothe reality that somebody else who's
getting their information from anotherset of totally curated sources, and
I mean those people actually couldbe next door neighbors and they still
have a totally different reality.
And that's where, that's where cuttingthrough the clutter, trying to make

(41:44):
meaning of all this becomes so important.

Kirk (41:48):
And it, it sounds like you're about to sign off on the podcast
series we're about to launch thisyear about how algorithms are
shaping our brains, so that's great.
I'm gonna take

Kristen (41:55):
that

Kirk (41:55):
Oh, as

Kristen (41:56):
a to-do list.

Kirk (41:56):
I'm doing that.
That you're

Kristen (41:57):
about to sign off.
You're about to sign off on

Kirk (41:58):
do it.

Kristen (41:59):
Oh,

Eric (41:59):
okay.

Kirk (42:00):
But can I give you, so I think yes to everything you just said.
Yes.
Right.
That, that, that's part of what'shappening is we have this crazy
situation with information and, and,and I will say again that I don't
think any of us understand really.
The information environment that we'recurrently living in, it's like we're all
drinking a cup of coffee, but we don'tknow what's in the coffee and, and we're
wondering why it's changing us into theseshape, shor, shape shifting, configured.

(42:21):
Entities 'cause we're,we're consuming stuff.
We just dunno what it is,where it's coming from.
So I agree and, and the waythat's happening, I totally agree.
But the, but the other part though,that Kristen's keyed into, which I think
makes this so nuanced and naturallydifficult, it starts in that origin story
that Kris Kristen provides from 2016.
And this is why I've always sovalued Kristen Kristen's work.
People like Kristen, thework that that they do.

(42:42):
And, and Kristen mentions afew folks in your interview.
Yeah, but it's that self-reflectionKristen had in 2016 where she
confesses, Kristen didn't see it coming.
She said, what has happened here?
I didn't see it coming.
And I think that to me,that's the we in the hour.
And I, and I would make a case, by theway, and you talked about the very smart

(43:02):
people that also didn't see it coming.

Eric (43:04):
Nobody saw it coming.

Kirk (43:06):
This.
I disagree.

Eric (43:08):
Okay.

Kirk (43:08):
It's not that we have to maybe you

Eric (43:09):
saw coming.

Kirk (43:10):
No, no, no.
This is the thing.
We have to define.
We and our and nobody and they,because this is Kristen's point.
Nobody, I know exactlywhat you're talking about.
All the smart people doingthe thing, changing the world.
None of us, and I'll put myself inthat bucket, we didn't see it coming.
But Kristen's saying, wait a minute.

(43:31):
Not only did nobody not see this coming.
Millions of people wanted it to come.
Millions of people were saying, this isthe reality I wanna see in America because
this is speaking to something that I need.
There's something, there's somethinggoing on in my experience that's
that's not being addressed in thelife that I'm seeing relayed to me.
And I feel like that's the searchthat, that Kristen has been on in
her travels with Charlie Trip acrossAmerica to understand all this stuff.

Eric (43:55):
Well, it's interesting in its own special way, the Momani.
Candidacy in New York is, is a, is a, aweird kind of time warped version of that.
Yes.
And it is.
Nobody saw that coming eitherand, but he is certainly speaking
to a lot of people's needs.
Now whether we can deliver on that isanother question entirely, but it is so

(44:16):
interesting that we are now seeing kindof this same kind of coalescence around.
Ideas that make a whole lot of, that makea whole lot of sense to a lot of people
and is creating its own little movement.
Now, I'm not obviously making anypolitical analogies or anything like our
parallels, but yeah, it, it is also truethat the, if that, if you reduce these,

(44:43):
these movements to their component parts.
It, it tracks with the questionsthat Kristen was asking about
that you need to consider ifyou're ready to do meaning making.
One of which is can youoffer clarity in the chaos?

Kirk (44:59):
Right.
Exactly.

Eric (45:00):
Now, one is, can you focus on the future?
And that's certainly not what the currentWashington administration is doing.
It's focusing very resolutely on thepast, so that that, that may be an outlier
there, but what big questions are inplay that you might offer answers to?
Because this is not justabout being against things.
It's about offering solutions to them.

Kirk (45:23):
Well, and I think that that sensibility, that this grows out of
Kristen's honest effort to actuallytry to get a clear sense of what's
happening for people in their real lives.
And so I think to me, this is thekind of the, it is like this period
of cognitive dissonance that again,there's a we in an hour around where the
cognitive dissonance is lived, right?
So there's a whole categoryof people for whom.

(45:45):
These choices, these changesdon't make a lot of sense.
Then there's a whole other categoryfor whom these choices and changes
feel like they're incredibly welcome.
And then, and then I think we wouldboth agree that's all being mediated
through this information landscape wherenone of it makes sense anymore anyway.
Yeah.
Because it feels like it's all, soit's also so, so Kristen has said,
I want to get out into the field.
And so what I love too, by the way,in terms of the optimism with which
Kristen is presenting this to work,is Kristen is saying, not only do you

(46:08):
need to do meaning making, but thisis a once in a generation moment.
To reconceive of how weconsider meaning making.
And it, it brings me back to kindof a begrudging comment at our last
conversation, like this profounddisruption that's been unleashed
in all of these institutions.
There's a, there's a place whereyou kind of have to greet your

(46:28):
teeth and be like, I don't like it.
I feel like this is hateful.
I feel like this is too destructive.
But there's a but in there, which is.
If we kind of look at this theright way, you could pull some
real opportunity out of thissituation that we find ourselves in.
But you've gotta, you've gotta be readyto do the real work in this moment.

Eric (46:45):
Yeah, I, I agree.
And.
I really encourage peopleto go and read the series.
We'll also put it on, on our websitefor people who just wanna come to the
Let's Hear website 'cause you never knowand to have a conversation about this.
I, I, I think that this is exactly thesort of thing that we need to chew on.
We need to add our own examples.
We have to think throughwhat it means for our work.

(47:07):
And, and I encourage people to maybe havea lunchtime thing where you read through
the, the series and talk it through whatdoes this mean for your organization?
How can you apply it?
What, what do you think thegreatest, the first thing to do is?
And then, and then next.
I'm also particularly interested in hernotion about fo focusing on building,

(47:28):
and she, she refers to, she referencesTrabian Shorters, who's also mm-hmm.
Been on the show.
Mm-hmm.
I hope someday more than once.
That, that we wanna talk aboutbuilding something new, not
fixing something that's broken.
And I, I think I might have talked abouthow foundations have a tendency to talk
about how they're like, the solutionsbe we're gonna solve the problem.

(47:49):
And, and I don't think thatthat's, I don't that, I don't
think that that's the, the way tothink about the work that we do.

Kirk (47:57):
So did you watch the series Mad Ben Ever?

Eric (48:00):
I, I did.

Kirk (48:02):
Did you enjoy it?

Eric (48:03):
I did.
I, I was, it was, it was delicious.

Kirk (48:08):
Do you remember the finale of that, of that series?
I,

Eric (48:11):
as a matter

Kirk (48:11):
of fact, I

Eric (48:12):
do.

Kirk (48:13):
So this, this feels like Kristen is, is embodying that
journey because the thing that

Eric (48:18):
she's standing on the lawn at Sallan in Big Sur

Kirk (48:20):
this, this, so this is, this is what came up for me.
I was thinking so partof what's informing.
So yes, Kristen's developedthis great framework around.
Meaning making and how to apply it to thework of these organizations and, and all.
And it's, and it, I would argue,right, it's pretty fundamental,
which is why I think even though thequestions might be simple, I think
the implications are pretty profound.

(48:40):
Even this, this change from.
We're just focusing on problems toactually, let's focus on solutions that
is such a wholesale reconfigurationof what people in the progressive
can movement consider theirwork and their role to be about.
But for Kristen, the processcoming to terms with what that
looks like was Kristen had toexperience it for Kristen's self.

(49:01):
Like Kristen went into the field.
And I think that these conversationsthat she's describing, like the, the
very, the very passionate debate withthe MAGA person at the campground.
And, and I, and by the way.
Great work Kristen Camp.
Yeah.
Nice little

Eric (49:14):
redirect.

Kirk (49:15):
Campgrounds are, are the most democratic places in the world.
That's where democracy lives.
And, and then I'm gonna have abig debate with somebody in the
campground wearing a MAGA hat.
And my, my debate's gonna be aboutwhich, which flies are the best
things to use to catch the fish.
Right?
Like, what's one of thebest lures and bates to use.
But, but this piece, I think, to me.
As much as the framework around meaningmaking that Kristen has provided and the,

(49:36):
and the way to challenge our thinkingabout how to pro produce this work in a,
in a more meaningful and impactful way.
This request, this hidden request tosay, 'cause I think this is where the
we in the hour, here's really importantif you're doing this work from the
vantage point of a well appointed office.
In a major metropolitan center and you'regoing to and from that well appointed

(49:59):
office under the careful watchful eyeof either your fabulously wonderful
car or the incredibly transparentlyalways available public transit
system, or you're biking there andyou're incredibly cool bike and you're
using and you're doing that all theway and you're protected bike lanes.
The we in our of the communitywith which you associate.
Every day looks so different thanthe we in the hour of the communities

(50:21):
that Kristen's encountering whenshe's traveling around the country
and, and, and being in all thesecommunities that are feeling the real
effects and the assault of what'shad been happening with our economy
and all this stuff that's going on.
Right?
So, so again, that, that's thething where I just love about what
Kristen's done here, and I thinkit's actually the invitation for
all of us to take this request.
It's like, what can I do?
To put myself into the field in anew and different way, so, right.

(50:43):
It's not the craziness of my socialmedia feed, it's also not the very
curated view of the world I'm gonnaget through the New York Times or
the New York or anything like that.
It's actually my first person feltexperience of actually getting to
the field and talking to real people.
I think that's a very important partof what Kristen's talking about here,
and I think it's incredibly welcome.
I think it's really necessary.

Eric (51:02):
Kirk, you make sense.

Kirk (51:06):
Can we just, can we just cut that out and that would just be,

Eric (51:11):
oh, no,

Kirk (51:11):
that would be the social media feed.
This, I'm gonna put it

Eric (51:13):
on a loop.

Kirk (51:17):
So, so then give you, give you, let me give you a, my, my last thing
here, because again, there's so muchin this and Kristen, this is such great
work, but, so you asked Kristen what.
How things might getorganized going forward.
What some of the, so some of the kindof common themes were, I, I love that
conversation around fixers and buildersand we've gotta become builders.
Less so fixers, but this notion thatthings are becoming possible now that.

(51:44):
Weren't before, just likeCOVID was this pandemic.
Yeah.
That afflicted all of us and wehad to adapt that, that again, this
disruption that's taking place.
Like our job is to be resilient,adaptive and creative.
And actually.
Grab this moment and turnit into something better.
Oh my gosh.
And, and to spend the next 10 yearsbeing future makers, not problem solvers.

(52:09):
That completely changes the gamefor what we should be doing as an
as, as a movement, whatever we wannacharacterize this movement to be.
And, and I think Kristen's right.
I think Kristen's right, and I'm, I'mgonna hesitate to go into the weeds about
all the stuff that we work on this in thisdomain, though, of course, if you want
to hear it, you can hear Chris, Eric'svery frustrated interview with me a while
back where he was trying to get me to thepoint to talk about the stuff we work on.

(52:32):
I could never get there 'cause I told thegreat story of Iowa, but don't you agree,
Eric, like this is, we've gotta get peopleinto this world of like, let's, let's,
let's get outta this negative framing.
Let's talk about howwe build for consensus.
And, and Chriss talking about.
The audacity, what could we putforward that would garner 60, 70,
80% agreement across this population?

Eric (52:52):
Yeah.

Kirk (52:53):
What are those ideas?
And so, Kristen, I don't know.
This is what you find when you goto the campgrounds across America.
You find this kind of stuff andit's, it's the very best stuff.
And again, Kristen comes backto this podcast and, and just
drops great wisdom all over it.

Eric (53:06):
Well, I totally agree.
And Kirk, you were very, very trenchant.

Kirk (53:11):
This very, this is the stuff that gets me going, this as, as
the native Iowan who's living inSan Francisco, who's been spending
years begging people to get into thefield and have these conversations.
It is you, you've got to get outtathese big, awesome, wonderful
cities that we all love to live in.
You've gotta get out to where peopleare really living, working, and
dying to understand how we need toactually change this conversation.

(53:33):
And when you're inthose places, the angry.
Reflection of somebody who storms intoWashington DC and says, I'm gonna tear
all this down to serve your interests.
It makes perfect sense why that voicewould resonate with so many people.

Eric (53:48):
Well, let's get out there and do it and, and we'll use Kristen's guidance
as our, as our, I don't know, our NorthStar or something, our touchstone.

Kirk (54:00):
Let's do it.
So Kristen Grim four partseries on meaning making on the
Spitfire Strategies website.
Please go check it out.
Kristen has done some different workaround this with podcast interviews
written, so check that stuff out too.
And Kristen Spitfire, keep at it.
This is the good stuff.
This is the key work andwelcome to Boman Montana.
Now, you've been there for a while,but it's, it's a nice little spot.

(54:21):
It's a little nicelittle spot to call home.

Eric (54:23):
Well, thanks Kirk for all of your energy and have a nice quiet cup of tea.

Kristen (54:29):
Thank you very much.
We'll see you next time and let's hear it.

Kirk (54:33):
Okay everybody, that's it for this episode.
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAli, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music.

Eric (54:47):
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation,

Kirk (54:50):
and please check out Lumina's terrific podcast, today's students
tomorrow's talent, and you canfind [e-mail].
We

Eric (54:58):
certainly thank today's guest, and of course, all of you,

Kirk (55:00):
and most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.

Eric (55:04):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Kirk (55:06):
Okay, everybody, till next time.