Marc Moorghen of Lever for Change – the Elvis of the Nonprofit World

On the latest Let's Hear It, Eric sits down with Marc Moorghen, VP of Marketing and Communications at Lever for Change.

Founded by the MacArthur Foundation, Lever for Change connects donors with bold ideas through massive open calls. In just six years, Marc and his team have helped move $2.5 billion to nonprofits — including MacKenzie Scott's $640 million Yield Giving Open Call and Pivotal's $250 million Action for Women's Health.

Eric and Marc get into how Lever for Change flips the traditional philanthropic "do not disturb" sign on its head, why unrestricted and open-call funding is finally going mainstream, and what it looks like when a foundation actually invites the unsolicited big idea.

Also: a hearty plug for Stuart Ewen's PR!: A Social History of Spin — the book that put Marc on this path in the first place. (Kirk has thoughts.)

Listen now — and please follow, rate, and review Let's Hear It wherever you get your podcasts. And listen for the opportunity to win a prize!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome
to
Let's Hear It.
Let's Hear It is a podcast for and aboutthe field of foundation and non-profit
communications, produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No relation.
Well said, Eric.
I'm Kirk.
And I'm Eric.
Let's Hear It is sponsored by theKenneth Rainin Foundation, which enhances
quality of life by championing the arts,promoting early childhood literacy,

(00:22):
and supporting research to cure chronicdisease, online at krfoundation.org.
We are also sponsored by The PrebysFoundation, a foundation creating
an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.
Check out their amazingly goodpodcast, Stop and Talk, hosted by
Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
You can find them atstopandtalkpodcast.com.

(00:43):
You can find Let's Hear
It on any podcast subscription platform.
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letzhearitcast.com.
And if you like the show, please,please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts
so that more people can find us.
Let's get onto the
show.
Welcome in.
It's so much better when you do it.
It's so much better.

(01:03):
So we get to s- we, we get a littlegri- glimpse, by the way, of the
world through Eric Brown's eyes inthis interview we're about to hear.
So you know that I'm not 6'7",right? You're, you're like 6'11".
That's what I was like.
You're so big.
This is the world where Eric isjust looking at the world and it's

(01:24):
like this enormous, this enormous-Y- ... shadow just covers the sun.
Like- You're like Hagrid.
I, I know.
It's true.
That's that's the imagethat comes to mind.
That's the image that comes to mind, so.
You're a clean-shaven Hagrid.
If Hagrid was ha- had, had visiteda tonsorial parlor- But ... he
would be, he would be Kirk Brown.

(01:45):
Marc Moorghen has
said he's made it finally becauseafter his long, illustrious career,
he's finally on Let's Hear It, andhe's finally made it, and that was
maybe the kindest thing that any-
that he's ever said about Let's Hear It
is coming on and saying- And I f- and,and I felt the, the I felt the, the, the
draft of smoke m- ... blowing up my skirt.

(02:08):
Well,
it's effective though.
We're, we're on your side.
If you come on here and you startsaying nice things about Let's Hear
It, you, you, you've won us over.
So yes, welcome in, everybody.
You've found us in this, ourwhatever season, uh, it is,
which we've stopped- Season
eight, I think ... we've stopped
keep- we've lost track.
We don't keep track.
We don't come here anymore.
I think we're season eight.
Um, I, I have to say, this was a welcomeconversation, speaking of welcoming in.

(02:30):
I really appreciated what we areabout to hear about this very
interesting and, and, um, new modelthat, that Mark has been part of.
So set this up because this actuallyfeels like it's, it's the kind of
stuff we wanna be hearing more and moreabout as we, as we find our way through
these incredibly difficult times.
Yes.
I had a fabulous conversation with my oldpal and dare I say crony, Marc Moorghen,

(02:56):
who is the vice president of marketing andcommunications at Lever for Change, which
is a very int- interesting organization.
It was started by the MacArthurFoundation, and what they do is they
connect donors with great nonprofitorganizations, usually through
these great big open calls- Mm-hmm
and so-called funding challenges.
, Think of like the XPRIZE.

(03:17):
So that's, that's what they do, andthe, , they don't like solicit grants.
They make these open calls.
So it is a very, I, I guess you couldsay democratic form of fundraising.
And Mark is a phenomenally...He's just a great guy, a great
human being in every way.

(03:38):
I dearly love him.
His, he, his empathy and his, Idon't know what you want, his pathos
and bathos and Athos and Porthos.
He, they, he like wears it onhis sleeve, and you get a sense
how important he has been to thatorganization and frankly to all of
the organizations he has worked with.

(03:59):
He's just a terrific guy.
He's really, really smart.
He's a learner.
He's a sponge.
He's a connector.
He's a really fun person to listen to,and if you, as you listen to his story, I
think he is everything that is best aboutthis field and about how we do our work.
And so you learn not just aboutLever for Change but about I

(04:19):
think how to be an effective
person in this field.
Yeah, you, you de- you describe him asthe nicest, one of the nicest, finest
people you ever met when you concludethe interview, and, , that comes
across in spades as you're talking.
And, and it struck me as you'retalking about that that this is the
quality of sensibility, the qualityof person that is so important,
so necessary, so valuable to have,, behind these incredibly, incredibly

(04:41):
important field-building initiatives.
So this is Marc Moorghen, the vicepresident for marketing and communications
from Lever for Change on "Let's HearIt." Let's listen, and we'll come back.
Welcome to "Let's Hear It." My guesttoday is my longtime pal and fellow
philanthropy communications troublemaker,none other than Marc Moorghen.
Now Mark is vice president of marketingand communications at Lever for Change,

(05:06):
a nonprofit that's founded by the John D.
and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation toconnect donors with bold solutions to some
of the world's most enduring challenges.
And Mark has also just joined theboard of the Communications Network,
so congratulations for that.
Marc Moorghen, you're here.
Welcome.
I, uh,
I am so happy to be here, Eric.
I feel like I, I finally made it.
I, I've made it.

(05:27):
I'm on "Let's Hear It." I am soglad to have you, be here with you.
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Mark, you made it a very long time ago.
Ah.
It's just taken you this long to catch up.
Well, being a friend of the two Browns.
I, I just wanna say hi to youand Kirk, who I've not met yet.
You've never met Kirk?
I have never met Kirk You haven't lived.
He's huge.

(05:48):
Yeah, people don't know thatKirk is-- he's like 6'7".
Really?
He's a, he's a, he is a massivepersonage, and the two of us look-
Wow ... when we stand next to eachother, we look like Penn and Teller.
Oh my God, I have to meet him.
Yeah, you have
to meet him.
One of these days maybe we'll doa live, a live show somewhere.
All right.
That'd be cool.
Let's just dig intothis, this great stuff.
We, now we have known each other for quitea long time, and- Mm-hmm ... you were,

(06:13):
I think you were head of communicationsat the Hilton Foundation, Conrad Hilton
Foundation- Correct ... at the time.
How did you get from wherever yougot your absolutely spectacular
accent to the Hilton Foundation?
Ooh, that is such a,it's, it's a big question.
It takes a long time to answer thequestion, so I'm gonna try and give

(06:33):
you the condensed version, okay?
Do, you know, whatever.
Cut, cut me off when you need to.
Okay.
I was born in Croydon, which is to thesouth of London, to an English Belgian
mother and a Mauritian father, so fromMauritius, where the dodo bird is from.
Uh, I was born, so I was born in SouthLondon, lived there for about seven
or eight years, and then moved toBelgium to be closer to my grandmother.

(06:56):
Was there for four years, then France forfive years, back to Belgium for a couple
of years, off to the UK for university.
Started working in Brussels, Belgium.
Was on a path to be a civilservant in the European Union and-
Huh ... went to visit my father'sisland of Mauritius and discovered
a whole world outside of Europe.

(07:17):
Eight months later, I ended up movingto Japan, which is a connection
I know that you and I share,and lived there for three years.
And while I was there, I metJonna, who would become my wife,
and came to h- the US with Jonna.
Ended up in LA, which was notpart of the master plan at all.
But ended up in LA and was freelancingfor a while, and then I came across

(07:40):
the Conrad N. Hilton Foundation,, which was founded by the founder of
Hilton Hotels, and thought it wouldbe the perfect fit for many reasons.
But I ended up joining theHilton Foundation and stayed
there for 12 and a half years.
So that's the short, condensed version.
That's the c- And what was yourfirst job at the Hilton Foundation?

(08:01):
I was hired to help manage the HiltonHumanitarian Prize, which at the time
when I started, which was 20 years ago,it was about a million dollars, I think,
for an outstanding nonprofit of the year.
So it was kind of like we, we branded itas the Nobel, uh, of the nonprofit world.
Of course.
So I did that for six years, andthen, I, I-- and at this time,

(08:21):
the foundation was growing.
So Barron Hilton, who was theson of Conrad Hilton, sold his s-
his hotel shares, and it becamea much larger organization.
So the foundation was growing, theteam was growing, our experience was
evolving, and I really wanted to movemore back into the communications role.
And the board, in its infinite wisdomat that time, decided it'd probably be

(08:43):
good to have a communications department.
It was a competitive process.
They set up a communications department.
I got the role and helped as theinaugural communications director.
Yeah.
Y- uh, we have that in common becauseI was the first communications
employee of the Hewlett Foundation.
What was it like for you to move overfrom the prize into communications,
and what was it that you werelearning about communications and in

(09:06):
particular foundation communications,which are, is the weirdest kind of
communications you can do almost,that- Mm ... was interesting, and how
did, what were those early days like?
It was actually fairly straightforwardto move from one department
to the other because the prizewas de facto the, the external-
Got it
... communications component of the foundation.

(09:26):
That was it.
It was the only external-facing piece.
So we ran the website, we did the events.
I, I had contacts with media, et cetera.
So it felt like a very naturalprogression, and I knew exactly what
we could and should do as a next step.
So it, it felt very, likea very natural transition.
Uh, at the time, I remember Ireached out to a lot of folks in the
communications sector, including you.

(09:47):
Ah.
And, uh- What'd I do?
I met you at the communicationsnetwork conference where you were
speaking in a Scottish accent.
I'll never forget.
And tried to figure out how todo this because 20 years ago,
communications at foundations andnonprofit space looked very different.
I remember where there was, there wereawards for the best brochure and the
best annual report and things like that.
Yeah.

(10:08):
And at the same time there was, there,there were studies floating around,
and there were conversations happeningabout strategic communications.
And I remember very vividly FredMann at RWJF, the Robert Wood Johnson
Foundation, had a couple of whitepapers at the time about how to engage
in strategic communications and why,and that really resonated with me.
So I found this white paper seeminglyby random, but I, I don't believe

(10:30):
anything's that random anymore.
And it made me realize that therewas a way of doing this, and it
really meshed with a, a book thatI'd read which put me on this path
when I came to the States called PR!,the s- the Social History of Spin.
It has PR with an exclamation mark.
By Stuart Ewen, who's a, a professorat Hunter College in New York.
And it was basically how todo communications for good.

(10:54):
Hacking the concept of PR that, thatwas designed and built for a cer-
you know, industrial and commercialreasons, and really hacking it for good.
And I thought, "That's something that Iwanna do with my life." And, and then,
you know, finding research like FredMann's papers and the communications
network and people like you who wereengaging in this in the early days

(11:15):
really made me realize that so much waspossible and there was so much potential,
and I could kinda see this pathway.
And so that's really what I brought to thefoundation- The foundation hadn't really
had... The Hilton Foundation hadn't hada communications function at that point.
They had the de facto prize piece,but it wasn't really strategic
communications as we think about it now.
So we were kind of late to the game,but I think what it allowed me to

(11:36):
do too was kind of leapfrog- Yeah
the process and get in at a point wherethings were really taking off, and
there was a really... There, there wasa good way of kind of building these
things, and it was, it was a great time.
It was so exciting tobuild that at the time.
Well, you know, it's interesting.
I, I love hearing this story because youare as, I think as good a networker in
all of the best ways as I've ever met.

(11:57):
Because you are... I think it's partlybecause you're just a nice person.
You are interested in others.
You feels to me likeget energized by crowd.
You're an extrovert, I feel.
Is that correct?
Yes.
Okay, good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I figured as much.
But, but that you've been... Where, likewherever I go, it's... You're like Elvis.
You're everywhere.
Wherever I go, there you're there.

(12:18):
There you are kind of engaging people andtalking to them and learning from them.
Can you... Any advice that you have?
I'm going way off of whatever strategyI had for this conversation because-
Good.
Okay.
'Cause it's how we do this here, here.
Do you have any advice for peoplewho are getting into this field
or kind of mid-career for how tolearn from others and how to engage

(12:40):
in ways that allow you to grow?
'Cause you have done it aswell as anyone I've ever met.
Thank you.
And I love getting off thebeaten path 'cause that's where
the interesting stuff happens.
That's right.
A- and I get compared to Elvis.
I mean, how cool is that?
Uh, the Elvis of the nonprofit world.
I'll take that.
Uh, so yes, I, I do havethings to share because I...
That's essentially how I, I started out.
I was reading a lot.

(13:01):
I was really curious about things.
I'd never really consideredmyself to be a networker, so I
just wanna establish that fact.
You know, 20 years ago, 25 years ago,whatever, when I was working in the
beginning, I, I thought networkingwas a thing that you did and, you
know, the, the stereotype of it.
Yeah, and it seems like p- peoplekind of sneer a little bit.
Oh, like, "Oh, he's a networker." Yeah,
because it's transac- it seemstransactional sometimes, right?

(13:23):
Yeah.
And that's the antithesis of whoI am and what I wanted to do.
So to answer your question, when Iwas, when I was working in this field,
I was just genuinely interested inwhat people were doing, and I was so
inspired by stuff that I graduallykind of came out of my shell.
I would meet people.
I'd meet them again, and thenI'd meet a few more people.
And that's really the secret to knowingthis many people, I think, is just over

(13:45):
time I've met a lot of people, and Ialways try to be open to new connections.
I talk to everybody I meet.
I'm always so curious about people'sstories they have- Amazing, fascinating
stories when you listen to them.
Like w- when we last met, I heardmore about your stories and- Oh.
Great case in point, where it's,it, it, people really open up to

(14:06):
you- It's possible I made some
of those up.
I'm sorry.
I, that's okay.
Okay.
Just let me believe.
Please continue.
But I think if you listen topeople, and I think this is
probably a, a good piece of advice.
I, I hesitate to hand out advice, butthis is one that I think is solid.
It's listen to what people aresaying and really hear what
they're trying to communicate.
And, and if you do, people open up.

(14:26):
So I think I've justgenuinely always been curious.
I was always the little kid who wouldask my mom, you know, like, "Why?
Why?
Why?
Why?
Why this?
Why that?" And I'dalways try to understand.
And I was a very bookish kid, and Iread a lot, and so I've just always
been curious about how things workand what makes people tick, and
like how people do some things orwhy they do them, or to what end.
And I think that's really helped me justmeet a lot of people and learn so much.

(14:50):
So it's not so much ... Yeah, thenetworking is, is valuable because
I do believe there's real power inknowing people and to, you know,
have a large group of people that youcan reach out to and ask questions.
So like for instance, I went toyou and asked questions about
how to set up a communicationsdepartment and things like that.
Very practical.
But also, I, I remember our, ourmutual friend Daniel Silverman saying

(15:10):
that he had a brain trust, right?
And I, I really loved that idea too,the kitchen cabinet, whatever you
wanna call it, where y- if you havea problem that you can't quite figure
out yourself, that you have this groupof people that you can reach out to.
That's fantastic.
And I've always been out- extrovertedand been able to talk to people, but I
was a little bit shy too, a little bitreserved, you know, in the beginning.

(15:32):
But I, I think realizing thatpeople genuinely wanted to help
and kind of paying that forwardhas always been my ethos.
So that's a long-winded answer to sayI think if you listen to people and
you're genuinely interested in learningfrom them, those doors just open.
I also think that it helps, espres-especially in your case, to have such
a wide variety of experiences, havinglived in Europe, having lived in Asia.

(15:54):
Can you talk just a little bit about howyou are gathering all of these experiences
and putting them into your practiceas a communications professional now?
That's a really interesting question.
So I will say that I started out ... Idon't really talk about this a lot.
I, I started out ... It soundsvery glamorous, but my background

(16:18):
is far from glamorous, right?
I started out as a, a kid in aworking class area of London.
Very working class, and a very heavilyimmigrant area of South London.
Very, I would say, economically less welloff and culturally vibrant area of London.
My world was very small initially.

(16:38):
Yes, I met people from differentplaces, and it was natural to hear,
like, reggae music and eat Indian foodand all, all ki- all kinds of things.
But it was gradually over timethat I accumulated, I think, a lot
of knowledge about how the worldworks, and also because I'm curious.
So I think the love of- Traveling is morea curiosity about the world and being

(17:00):
open to being in uncomfortable situations.
So a lot of the time I'm in situationswhere I don't really understand
something or I don't know how somethingworks, so I'll either ask a question
or I'll observe a situation and tryand figure out what's going on and
how I can be part of that or how Ican add to it or not, not do any harm.
So I think the short version is it's overtime I've accumulated a lot of experiences

(17:23):
which I think are an education.
So a lot of it, too, is education.
I love reading.
I was not on a path to be in this kindof career, I think, growing up, and yet
I ended up in this kind of position,which I don't take for granted, in this
sector, which I do not take for grantedeither, thanks to supportive systems, too.
So I benefited from a lot of the systemsand outlets that I see in my work.

(17:46):
For me to answer your question, it reallyis an openness to everything, whether it's
music or arts or people or books or foodor whatever, and it all affects my work.
I know that that sounds like abit of a crazy answer, but my
whole life has been about change.
Yeah, I, I've always kind ofbeen on the move and in different

(18:07):
situations, and I think all ofthose experiences come to bear.
It's a little bit like, what'sthe movie, Slumdog Millionaire?
Uh-huh.
Where he has all these experiencesand ends up on a game show and has all
the answers 'cause he's just happenedto have experienced certain things.
There's a little bit of that, too.
I feel like I've learned a lot along theway, either because I've sought it out
and read and researched and studied it,or because I've learned things from being

(18:29):
around people and being in communities.
You know, if you talk about access tosafe water, like which was one of the
topics at Hilton, one of the issue areaswe focused on, going out into communities
and actually seeing what water scarcitylooks like or, you know, contaminated
water, things like that, it, it helpsyou understand these issues in a way that
you wouldn't behind a desk necessarily.
Well, we're gonna take a very shortbreak, and we're gonna talk after the

(18:51):
break about how you're taking all thoseexperiences and all of this stuff that
you've learned over time and applyingit to your work at Lever for Change.
So we're gonna be right back afterthis break with Marc Moorghen.
You're listening to Let's HearIt, a podcast about foundation and
nonprofit communications hostedby Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.

(19:12):
Check out season three of Break FakeRules with Glenn Galich, CEO of the
Stupski Foundation, as he chats withinspiring leaders in philanthropy,
government, media, and more aboutbreaking the fake rules that don't work
so that we can build a future that does.
Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now back to the show.

(19:35):
Welcome back.
I'm talking today with my pal andfellow troublemaker, Marc Moorghen.
Tell me about Lever for Change.
It's such an interestingmodel for philanthropy.
And I, it feels to me like you're havingthe opportunity to apply all of these
things you've learned over the years.
So let's talk a little bit about that.

(19:55):
What's Lever for Changeand what are you doing?
Which is a nonprofit designedto find funding for as many
nonprofits as possible.
So we connect donors with outstandingorganizations, typically through open
calls, like large scale challenges.
So for instance, we'll have a minimumof $10 or $20 million as a- an award,

(20:15):
and organizations can apply andpresent their ideas, and then get
funded after a kind of review process.
That's the short version.
The longer version is a few years agowhen I was at Hilton, I heard the original
pitch for 100 & Change, which was abig competition that the, the MacArthur
Foundation was running from Chicagoon any topic anywhere in the world.

(20:37):
And I remember Julia Stasch, theformer president of the MacArthur
Foundation, coming to LA to aroom full of philanthropists
and talking about this idea.
And I remember thinking, "Wow, isthis... Is... What is this?" It's...
It was so different from the kinds ofthings that we were doing, and such
a different way of thinking about it.
A big bet.
That's how they talked about it.

(20:58):
And then at the end of the process, SesameWorkshop and the IRC got a joint award.
And I remember the Hilton Foundation, wewent to MacArthur and said, "Well, what
did you find on access to safe waterand homelessness and other things?"
And they shared it with us just freely.
And that was an amazing thing.
So it modeled partnershipin a very real way.
And it turns out a lot of otherorganizations did the same thing,

(21:20):
and a lot of other people and otherthings got funded, and so that
model became Lever for Change.
Fast-forward a few years, Lever forChange has been around for six years now.
We've helped influence over $2.5billion in funding, which is
pretty... It's much more ambitiousthan I even expected when I joined.
Wh- when I joined, I was in LA,and uh, I was consulting in good

(21:45):
company, Eric, and enjoying my work.
But I saw this job description for thisorganization and I thought, "I know that.
I get it." Mm-hmm.
And I, I really understandhow I can add value.
C- because it was a mix of prizecompetitions and communications, and
running a small business, and beinga think tank, and all these different
things that I'd had a hand in.

(22:06):
So again, it was the accumulationof experiences that kinda led
me to this role, and I reallygrew with the organization.
Because when I started, we wereaiming for $1 billion in funding,
which we surpassed really quickly,and it feels like it... I've been
strapped to a rocket ship ever since.
It's just been an incredible adventureand it's grown exponentially.
And so let's get into thenitty-gritty a little bit.

(22:28):
How are you identifying donors,and then how are you taking those
donors and whatever, bringing themtogether and funding organizations?
So part of our team, our partnershipsteam, goes out and meets with donors all
the time, either to fund organizationsthat we have in our network that
we've identified through open calls.
So we have about 500 organizations inour network right now that we've vetted

(22:52):
and de-risked, is the term that we use.
So it's a pipeline, a deal flow of ideas.
And so we're always shoppingthose around, trying to get
more funding for organizations.
We're also trying to build thatpipeline, and that's through
the open call mechanism.
So we, we pitch thematic ideas to fundersaround the country and around the world.
People also come to us.
So originally, Lever for Change wasfounded with the idea that it would

(23:15):
appeal more to what we call ultrahigh net worth individuals, people who
have $30 million or more in assets.
Rich people.
Yes.
Basically.
Yes.
Uh- Love, I love the
net worth part.
You know- I, I, I
know your love of jargon ... gr-
gross worth will be fine.
Ballpark.
Ballpark worth.
Wealthy.
Rich.
Yes.
So it, that was the idea.

(23:35):
That was the plan.
And really, it's turned out to besomething much different, much more open.
So it, it's really appealed to allkinds of different funders, whether
they're established foundations, newkind of foundations or philanthropic
vehicles, LLCs, anonymous donors,individuals who are just starting
out maybe, people who either are juststarting out a foundation and want

(23:57):
to kind of build some infrastructurethrough this and a pipeline, or people
who don't want to build a foundation.
Also financial intermediaries.
All, all really all kinds, and Ithink that's been the biggest surprise
so far, that it really appealed tolots of different types of funders.
I would also think that it's amassive communications opportunity
because there are so many differentways that you can engage people.

(24:18):
As you say, some peoplewanna m- remain anonymous.
Some people are focusedon a particular issue.
Some people are- Yeah ... opento suggestion or opportunities.
Oh, and by the way, you're in shipping andreceiving 'cause you're raising the money
and you're helping to direct the money.
So that's feels like the world isyour oyster communications-wise.
Can you talk about how you thinkabout communications through all

(24:41):
of these sets of opportunities?
Yes.
It's, it started out in one place.
So when I joined, I thought about itvery much in terms of campaigns, right?
Different clients were running differentcampaigns for different issues and
for different reasons with differentlayers and levels of visibility.
Some of them wanted attention,some of them didn't want attention.
With different teams, some of themhad teams, some of them had no teams,

(25:03):
some of them ha- had multiple teams.
So it's really all kind of shapes,sizes, and flavors, as I like to joke.
What it's kind of morphed into ismore of an awareness of what seems
to work and resonate with people.
So in that sense, I think we dothings a little bit differently.
I, I think what the mostimportant thing that we've come
to realize is it's not about us.
Our whole reason for being is todrive more funding, which means that

(25:25):
we occupy this really interestingspace between nonprofits and funders.
And we're trusted By both.
And we're trusted by people who donot nec-necessarily trust very easily.
With that increasing trust, what hashappened is we've been able to kinda shape
the communications a little bit more.
So where we are now is we reallytry to think of what we're trying to

(25:47):
achieve with this, you know, what, whatthe end goal is, how we benefit the
organizations that are getting funding.
So it's not just about funding.
It's like at this scale, if you're,you're giving this much money, you
are trying to make a difference.
You're really trying to changethe way things are being done.
So I always like to say that we flipthe model on its head, the traditional
philanthropic model, where it's like,"Don't call us, we'll call you,"
and there's this kind of invisibledo not disturb sign on the door.

(26:09):
We have a strategy and we'llimplement our strategy.
And I think where we came from waswe would say, "No, no, bring us your
unsolicited proposals and bring us yourbig, bold ideas and we will pay attention
to all of them and then we will, wewill make sense of it and then give
out the funding." It, it's very open.
So that's the first partabout the communications.

(26:29):
It's a very open model.
All of the information is there, whichis something that I had been striving
for in previous positions, was to getmore transparency about what we do.
Just providing access to some of theinformation like who are the finalists?
What's the timeline?
Who are the evaluators?
What's the process?
Am I a good fit?
We've even created a tool that letsyou kinda take this quick kinda

(26:50):
quiz at the beginning to determineif you're a good fit so that you
don't waste your time if you're not.
But it's really this approach to beingopen throughout the process and then using
these moments to really lift people up.
So my favorite example, a-and it'sa two-part example, one is the Yield
Giving Open Call Awards, which was 640million to 391 organizations across

(27:11):
the states from MacKenzie Scott.
Yep.
And that one was clearly verydifferent for a lot of reasons, but the
communications part of it, the thingthat was so fascinating was w-we didn't
really have a lot of communications.
We had a story in the AP andthe rest of it was a toolkit.
We gave a toolkit to all of theorganizations that re-received funding

(27:31):
and they ran with it and they made ittheir own and it was just this joyous
occasion of watching all of thesedifferent organizations repurpose
content and just do their own thing withit and spread these stories in order
to get more funding from their localcommunities and grow their support base.
And it... So it was this Ongoingthing that still continues to this

(27:52):
day, which I think is amazing.
And we've replicated that recently withthe pivotal Action for Women's Health
open call, which we just announced a, afew weeks or a couple of months ago for
$250 million to 80-plus organizationsaround the world for women's health.
And we did the same thing,that same kind of approach.
So really it's like it's not really aboutus, it's more about these organizations

(28:15):
and what they can do with it.
So it's kind of, it'sinspiring more support.
So it's ripple effectsreally, networks of networks.
Do you have a favoritegrantee organization?
A little, maybe a even a little grantthat could, that, that gives us a real
sense of the possibilities for nonprofitorganizations with Lever for Change?

(28:37):
With Lever for Change, th- there,there have been so many grantees
that I really cannot pick favorites.
I have so many favorites, so itwould take a long, very long time.
Oh, give me a favorite.
I will give- It's
okay.
That- I'll give anotherexample ... we will forgive you.
Okay.
From a
previous life.
I, I will give an example from whenI was at the Hilton Foundation, and
we gave out a media grant to KCRW,which was the local NPR affiliate.

(28:58):
Right.
Know
it
well.
But it was... Yes, it's avery famous station mainly
because of the music, right?
Yep.
And so it was a very- Morning Becomes
Eclectic was their- Exactly ... wastheir morning music show.
The, the cool kids, as Ialways like to call them.
Yeah.
They, they just, they really appealedto people all over the place and
had a, a very loyal fan base, right?
Not exactly the, the outlet that youwould think about in connection with the

(29:20):
Hilton Foundation at that time becausewe were focused on some, yeah, very
serious issues that usually would beon C-SPAN or, you know, maybe on PBS,
you know, in a news show or something.
But we really, we had some moneyleft at the end of the year, and I
really made the case for being ableto support this group because I
thought they want to tell stories.
So they had come to us saying, "We want totell stories that matter to our community.

(29:43):
Beyond music and all of that cool stuff,we also want to talk about impact."
And we were thinking, well, we, wetalk about impact, but we really want
to connect with different people, youknow, different audiences and really
spread the word about what's goingon and help people understand these
very complex issues in a simple way.
And so it was a perfect opportunity,and it was great to be able to

(30:03):
channel some of that fundingto something that we didn't do.
At the time, we did no media funding.
So it was a very radically differentthing to do at that time for that
kind of organization, to that kind oforganization for that kind of purpose.
So I, that, that's my favorite example.
So now it feels to me like y-your kind of philanthropy is
a, is r- is relatively new.
I mean, the, it's kind of theprize concept isn't brand new, but

(30:27):
it's- Mm ... relatively recent.
And the work that you're doing tobring together donors and grant
Recipients or grant applicants-Mm-hmm ... especially in this world of
the citadel that you have to chuck arock over with a note attached to it and
hope that somebody in the foundation'sgonna read it, these black boxes.
Yeah.
So you're coming up with new ways,in a sense, to do philanthropy.

(30:48):
Mm-hmm.
And communications around those,around that kind of philanthropy.
Mm-hmm.
Also, you've referenced MacKenzie Scott.
That is a new version ofphilanthropy, for sure.
Can you give me a sense of your owntake on how our field is changing and
how communications fits into that?
I love that question because I feel thatwe are really at an inflection point, and

(31:10):
you and I have been talking about thisfor, what, 20 years or something- Yeah
... hoping that this moment would come.
A- and I really do think we are there.
I, I am really seeing philanthropychange, and I think that a lot of us who
have been working in this sector for along time have a lot of jokes about how
slow-moving it is, you know, moving atthe speed of philanthropy and all that.
But I, I, I do think that a lot ofdifferent things have come to bear

(31:32):
that have precipitated great changes.
So, you know, MacKenzie Scott is oneexample, and just what an incredible
example of trying to, to cede control.
I, I think that's really what it's about.
But also seeing how it's a... N- notjust that, but how, you know, external
pressures, whether it's funding cutsor technology, all of these things

(31:53):
seem to be happening at once, andit's had a really destabilizing force.
So I don't wanna, I don't wanna minimizethat part of it either because I think
that there are a lot of casualtiesand a lot of colla- collateral
damage and a lot of pain right now.
Yeah.
We all know people who have losttheir jobs i- in this economy
and in this, this moment.
And at the same time, I think werecognize that it, at some point, things

(32:15):
are really going to be very different.
And, and I think it's an opportunityto think about how we do things
differently because they weren'tthat great five, 10, 20 years ago.
Yeah, the good old days were- You know?
We... Right, the good old daysdidn't really exist ... not as
good, but definitely aren't.
No, they're not as good as we remember.
Yeah.
So I think w- where Level of Changecomes into to this equation is I
really admire the MacArthur Foundationfor trying something different.

(32:37):
And at the time, you know, like Isaid, I was in the audience listening
to this thing and I thought, "Is thisa PR thing, a PR stunt, or what is
this?" Because it was so different.
But for a foundation the sizeof MacArthur to try something
different, and I think they'veactually maintained that very well.
They st- still take risksand try different things.
Was kind of groundbreaking at thetime and it's, I think it's really
paid off if you think about it.

(32:59):
Investing initially in this tiny littleragtag band of people who'd go off and do
this thing, and then it has this impactand leverages more and more, more funding.
That was a really bold thing to do.
But I, I'm seeing others dothese kinds of things, too.
So the large scale funding thing atthe time, 10 years ago, was more rare.
It's becoming more commonnow, so that's changing.

(33:20):
I think the idea of, uh,unrestricted funding is becoming
more normalized, which is fantastic.
Yep.
You know, they-- I didn't anticipatethat happening as quickly as it has.
There's still a lot ofresistance, I have to say.
You know, there's a lot of researchthat shows that philanthropy and
giving is changing and should change,and that there are reasons to do it,

(33:41):
detailed research, and people stillresist it because they, you know,
there's a certain way of doing things.
So it's a culture shift.
It's a generational shift, aculture shift, a demographic shift.
But I think where organizations like Leverfor Change, and we're not the only ones.
There's Blue Meridian Partners,Co-Impact, Borealis Philanthropy.
There are lots of these kind ofnew models, are trying to not

(34:01):
replace other ways of doing things.
We're not replacing foundations.
We're providing a differentway of doing things.
So for instance, I always say, even ifyou trust us, if you're a foundation,
trust us with 5% of your, yourportfolio, or if you're an investor, 5%.
Give it a try and see what you uncover.
Yeah.
Because what we try to do is reallyget beyond your known network.
You don't need to know a programofficer at Lever for Change.

(34:23):
You don't need to know me.
You don't need to knowone of our board members.
It doesn't make any difference.
It really is a more kind of democraticway of giving and distributing funding.
And so I think the idea of trying newways is really taking off right now,
and I'm seeing this across the board.
I'm seeing every month now there'ssomething new popping up and people

(34:44):
are adopting each other's practices.
Just so you know, behind the scenes withthe organizations I just mentioned, our
peers, we all share information too.
So it's becoming a lot more, uh, of apartnership, which I think before we,
we talked about partnerships a lot,but we didn't actually do it very well.
Now I'm seeing more of that takinghold, and I think that's actually very

(35:04):
promising for the future of giving.
Well, you do need to know Marc Moorghenbecause he is one of the nicest,
finest human beings I've ever met, andhe is a font- Aw ... of information.
You have learned somuch and taught so much.
I'm just so grateful foryou for coming on the show.
I'm grateful for you for being myfriend, and for all the work that you do.

(35:25):
Thanks, Mark.
Thank you,
Eric.
I'm so honored that I was on your show.
I finally made it.
I always glad to spend time with you,and thank you so much for the chat.
Well, the pleasure is mine.
Marc Moorghen, thank you again.
Thank you, Eric.
And we're back So it's, uh, it's truethat Mark does have a spectacular
accen- accent, but, but even moreimportantly, Mark has an incredible story.

(35:48):
And, and I have to say, like, one ofthe things that was strike, strike
me as, as he was describing hisbackground, you know, working-class
area of London, kind of in this verysmall economically limited world, but
also immigrant, it's very dynamic.
But just this, this notionof kind of not fitting in.
And, and I was thinking to myself, youknow, is that, is that a quality that
maybe effective communicators sharesthat, that we, we, we empathize with?

(36:11):
We, we know what it means to not fitin, and actually that, that gives
us this second sight, if you will.
It's like we can kind of seethe world in a different way.
And I, I'm not prepared to writea dissertation about that, I'm
not prepared to do any research,but, but it just struck me.
Like, I was like, "Mark, like, you've,you've, you've managed your way through
this world of very, very differentpieces and, and yet you, you found
a way to make it all fit together.

(36:33):
And is that part of your story, isthat you actually know what it is
to not fit in, and so then you getthat yearning to, like, help others
fit in and become part of somethingbigger than themselves?" I don't know.
I just, it, it, it made me think aboutthat when you were, when you were, when
you have that part of your conversation.
Well, the fact that he has lived so manyplaces and done so many things, A, it's
a kind of a g- a really good argumentfor diversity in the broadest sense- Mm

(36:56):
... which is that you have the opportunity tosee and learn from and benefit from lots
of different things, and he certainly has.
And his own sense of curiosity, ofcourse, drives so much of his work,
and that curiosity happens when you goto a new place and you observe things.
He talked about that, and we have thatin common that we both lived in Japan.

(37:18):
Mm-hmm.
Like, you go to a place andyou don't understand anything.
You can't ... And this is, I wasthere before Google Translate.
So I, I couldn't ... I, I just had toguess- Yeah ... or surmise or whatever.
And it gives you a sense of, of ... Thatcuriosity makes you wanna learn more,
and as you learn more, you learn more.
And the, I think that is whathis background is and what his

(37:41):
experience has been, and I think
it helps him in his work.
So can I make a huge plug thatanybody who's listening to
this, just hit pause right now.
Go to Amazon Books.
If you don't own it, go getyour hands on PR: The Social
History of Spin by Stuart Ewen.
So have you ever read that book, Eric?
And Mark- No ... mentions this.

(38:02):
And Mark, oh my God, I can't believewe've done all these episodes of
Let's Hear It, and you're the firstperson who mentions this book.
It, I really wish everybody in oursector read this and then the analog
of, there's, like, a handful of bookslike it, that document this notion
that this field we're in around publicrelations and communications, it's
got a history, it's got origins thatare based in evidence, and it will

(38:27):
And, and, and this is, I think, somethingthat shows, Eric, between you and
I sometimes in these conversations.
It will forever change your view of theworld because, 'cause one consequence
of reading books like this and otherslike it for me is that- I don't
believe that there's an organic, "Thisis just what's happening" anymore.
I believe that everything thatwe're seeing that happens around
us is the function and then theresult of a campaign in some way.

(38:48):
And, and, and this is, and this couldbe w- one of those great little,
like, conspiracy theory moments, like,you're ... But, but PR: The Social History
of Spin really documents how public in
Like, like, public communicationscampaigns over a century have shaped
most of what we understand to be truein the United States of America, and
then that has global consequence.
And, um, so I just ... Mark, I'mso glad ... In fact, Eric, you know

(39:12):
how I love giving you assignments,so I want you to bring Mark back.
Yes.
I want you to bring Mark back.
I want to get Stuart Ewen on this podcast,and I want, I wanted just a discussion
about that book and books like it.
Mm-hmm.
Because this, this understanding thatour field has so much impact, but
also history, and then we're trying tobring that forward and apply it to the
work we're doing today, that, I just

(39:34):
That little call-out, itwas just a little beat.
It actually got Mark mobilized to work inthis field, and like, well, then that book
is doing everything it needs to be doing.
But, but books like that aretransformative, so I just, I just wanna
make a pitch for a book like that.
And have you, have you read somethinglike that in your career, Eric, that
was like, "Oh my God, this helpsme understand, like, what I'm, what
I'm doing with this whole field andwhat's going on with all this stuff?"

(39:55):
Huh.
No.
Yeah.
Actually, s- so- The Smart Chart ... Ihad never heard of the book.
Okay.
I had never heard of the book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, the Smart Chart, for sure-Right ... was a, from Spitfire
Strategies, was a huge ... I, it, manythings have been influential to me.
Yeah, yeah.
But, uh, th- there has never been thebook that, that spun my head around.
So here, here's a crazy thing.
All right, I, I don't know if this isethical, but I'm gonna go for it anyway.

(40:19):
It's great.
If, if someone leaves us alegitimate Apple Podcast review.
So they can't lie and say the show isgood if they don't think it's good.
But if, if they, if it's reasonablyclose to how they actually feel- Sure
I will personally buy you a copyof PR: The Social History of Spin.
That's great.
I will ... And, and I will send it to you.

(40:40):
So that, that's it.
So y- like, co- get in contact withus, say, "Here, here's my Apple Podcast
review," take a screenshot, send it to me.
Th- that's unethical, I think,but, but I think it's, it's still a
good idea, so there, I, I meant it.
But y- yeah, no, I hadnever heard of the book.
I, I think that we, we mostcertainly need more of them.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, um, the l- l- like, you know, there's,there's a lot of good material out there.

(41:04):
It's, it's getting better.
Yeah.
That's for sure.
Yeah.
Uh, Anne Cristiano's book- Mm. Yeah... that just came out is a good example.
Yeah.
And let's keep that going.
So if there's any other folkswith good books out there in the,
uh, in them, you should write it.
I, I, I'm not gonna do that though,because I'm- But we'll read it.
But we'll read it ... I'mtoo, I'm, I'm too lazy.
But I will read it, and, and if somebodygives us an Apple Podcast review, then I

(41:27):
will buy them a copy and send it to them.
So Mark spends 12 years at theHil- at the Hilton Foundation-
I almost called it Hewitt.
The Hilton Foundation
No, not the
Hilton And they're giving a$1 million gift, kind of the
Nobel Prize of nonprofits.
They're giving a, a million-dollar gifteach year to whatever nonprofit emerges,
and I thought that was so interesting.

(41:48):
And how challenging would it be tonavigate the communications part of
that which Mark was working with,but also the selection part of that?
And what's your perspective?
'Cause I mean, that's a transformativegift, and yet at the same time
I've, I've also had the experienceof, like, the worst number in
philanthropy is a million dollars.
'Cause it feels like you should beable to do everything with it, but
you actually realize you can't.
You know?
It's, it's, it's, it's like astart- Right ... but it's, it's

(42:08):
not, it's not the end-all, be-all.
But what do you think about that, thatnotion of, you know, what it takes
to navigate the work of providinga $1 million gift each year to a
nonprofit through a, a prize anda competitive selection process?
The, the prize issue can be challenging inthat you don't want organizations to spend

(42:29):
a ton of time and money and resourcesfor something that they may not get.
Mm-hmm.
And th- s- and therefore... And Ithink they've gotten, uh, good at
this, at, at trying to mitigate thetime and the, the expense on the grant
seeker who may not c- get the grant.

(42:49):
Uh, but, but that's always, uh, theone of the things, uh, about prizes
that you have to be careful about,which is y- you gotta make it easy
for them to apply, and you have tom- So that, that, that's a big deal.
And then there, there's like a secondprize, a third prize, and there's
a lot of information about theseorganizations that then gets shared

(43:09):
that allows organizations that didn'tget funded to get funded elsewhere.
So it becomes a repository of informationabout organizations that, that puts
them in line for other funding.
So those are, those arethe bits about that.
Yeah, about whether a million dollarsis the, is the number or not, uh,
c- certainly these, um, the grantsthat they are now g- that Lever

(43:30):
for Change is doing are well- Yeah
in excess of a million dollars.
Right.
Right, right, right.
So it's transformative amounts of money.
Yeah.
So there's that.
Well, it made me wonder, uh, forthe Hilton Foundation process if
they were actually able to disclosekind of the second place candidates,
because I was thinking that wouldbe- Yeah ... a super effective
way to organize your grant making.
Just, just fund allthe second place folks.

(43:51):
You know what I mean?
'Cause like, 'cause like, likethe folks that are emerging, they
all have effective programs, too.
And it, and it, it made me think,too, about the MacKenzie Scott model
and just being like, "I'm gonna makethe transaction costs for you as
an organization as low as possible.
I'm gonna hold all those expenses onmy side, and we're gonna do the due
diligence without you even knowing.
And then once we decide you're, uh,you're a recipient, you're just gonna get

(44:14):
a check, and we're gonna say, 'We trustwhat's going on.'" I, I just, I, I wonder
how much philanthropy going forward isgonna orient to that approach, 'cause it
just seems like it's so transformativeand so effective for people.
Well, I would say that if, if I couldhave o- one thing left in my career-
It would be to have MacKenzie Scotton this show- Yeah, that would be

(44:35):
incredible ... to talk about howshe f- how, just how she does this.
Mm-hmm.
Because it is a model forothers, but there is not enough.
We just don't know nearly enoughabout how she makes her decisions,
about what her process is.
It's, it's quite opaque.
And like I say, the outcomes are f-uh, phenomenal, and the way she is

(44:57):
m- getting money into the field inall sorts of places is extraordinary.
I mean, it is such a gift to, toour nonprofit community, and yet
there's so much we don't know,and that it could be replicated.
And s- process does matter, and Idon't believe she is just chucking,

(45:18):
you know, darts against a, a board.
So that would be my dream in life.
I, I... It will never happen.
But- But that, wouldn't that be amazing-Yeah ... that we have this g- kind of
glimpse in to that kind of thinking?
And whereas, kind of, this is whatMark is, is doing at Lever for

(45:38):
Change, is giving a glimpse into howthis decision-making goes- Mm-hmm
with regard to these large scale,like really transformative gifts.
So th- that, that's, that's part of it.
And, and it would be great just toget more of that from, from others,
and particularly MacKenzie Scott.
So if you're out there listening, I'm sureMacKenzie Scott's a, uh, like- An avid
listener
... can't wait-
for a new episode that drop and justkind of, you know, hangs on, on, on every

(46:04):
day, like just refreshes the website.
Uh, but, uh, so that wouldbe, that would be my,
my hope.
One of the things I appreciated inMark's self-reflection, he said he
never considered himself a networker.
But over time, he's met lots of people,and he's really honed this capacity
to listen to what other people aresaying and hear what they have to say.
And I thought that was such a greatsynopsis for what it would take
to succeed in the role that he'sbeen thrust in, which he obviously

(46:27):
sought out, but to be part of thisprocess with Levercha- for Change.
And I also love how, um, as impactfulas it's been, and is it true that in
six years they've influenced over 1.5 B,as in boy, billion dollars in funding?
That it's over... It's, it's, th-they, their scale has been that big.
They started, their target was abillion initially, and now it's

(46:48):
over, they, they surpassed that.
It's, it's 2.5 billion.
2.5 billion.
2.5.
That's a lot of money.
That's a
lot of money, and yet, you know, the,to, the, Mark's self-reflection on it
is that it really sounds like a smallstartup enterprise that was, you know...
Recently we were talking about what itlooks like for foundations to take risks.
This, I think, is a risk that wastaken, and it just seems like from the

(47:11):
standpoint, hopefully from the standpointof what MacArthur was trying to do,
this has been an enormous success.
I mean, is that, is that your... A-and, and you need people like Mark- Yeah
to sit at the center of itto try to create the outcomes
that you're looking to create.
Well, and the influencing of thefunding- The one of the most important
components of being able to influencethat funding is communications.

(47:32):
Yes.
Yeah.
And if you think, if foundation personout there thinks that communications
doesn't matter, you're just gonna givethe money to your grantee and the- Mm
good, like good thingswill happen, you're wrong.
Right.
Because leverage, hey, leverage,it's in, it's in their name.
Leverage means being able toget more power out of a certain

(47:53):
amount of energy that you put in.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, that's what a lever is.
It allows you to lifta piano with two guys.
So the...
And, and that's whatcommunications is for philanthropy.
The more you are able to communicate aboutwhat an organization is trying to achieve,
how they're going to get there, why thisorganization is good, where there's need,

(48:15):
where there's opportunity, all thosethings, the more you can do that, the
more ideas and money and influence youbring into whatever it is you're doing.
And that's, I mean, that'sthe nature of this show.
It's the nature of so many ofthe work of our colleagues.
That's why we do what we do, becausecommunications, and the cost of

(48:35):
communications is pennies on the dollar.
Yeah.
I mean, it's like leverage times leverage.
It is really, really cheap compared to themoney that you are getting out the door.
And if you are bringing in more moneyand helping your grantees become more
effective because of their betterunderstanding of communications,
your investment went way up.
And that's, I think, one of thegreat lessons about Lever for Change,

(49:00):
and it's why that, I think it'swhy that organization is successful
as it is, is because they dounderstand communications, and they
use it as effectively as possible.
So, you know, God bless.
Mazel tov.
And you can't anticipate all thepositive directions that's gonna go.
And I was thinking, you know,Mark having that capacity to be

(49:20):
a high-trust person, to navigateconversations, think strategically.
Just on the donor side, thinkabout how powerful that is, you
know, because they're networkingwith donors all the time.
They got started and had a certain thoughtabout how the donor piece would work.
All of a sudden they realize, wait aminute, the kinds of donors that might
be attracted to what we're doing, thisis way more diffuse than we had thought.

(49:43):
It's gonna be high net worth individuals.
It's gonna be anonymous donors.
I don't even... I, I'm not evengonna do a foundation, but I have the
resources to be part of something.
Maybe I'm just part ofa, a financing mechanism.
We're looking for a good placeto find, to locate resources.
And opening the door to thoseconversations creates all of those
opportunities for that outcome tobe created, and I don't know if on

(50:03):
day one they would've thought theywere gonna have such- Broad appeal.
My guess is maybe not.
They probably thought they were gonna workwith a certain set of a type of foundation
or something like that, and suddenly theyrealized, oh no, we can do so much more,
let alone the hundreds of organizationsthat are in their network that are, that,
that are pitching ideas all the time.
So, so this, this idea of whatcommunications is, you know, that it, that

(50:24):
it sits in that, that honest willingnessto... And it's funny, um, I think, I can't
remember if it was you or Mark that talkedabout, like, so many foundations sit
with kind of an invisible do not disturb-Right, yeah ... plaque on the door.
Right?
Don't, don't bother.
But this is instead, this isa whole conversation about no,
no, no, bring us your ideas.
We wanna be transparent.
Um, and then we wanna, we wanna broadenthe awareness of what, what's possible,

(50:47):
um, to as many donors as, as we can.
I, that, I just, I just love that wholeprocess around the transaction and how
communications was a crucial elementof all of it every step along the way.
Yeah.
I, I totally agree.
And I think just in, in philanthropyin general, if all of the outcomes that
you achieved were things that you hadpredicted or planned for, you're probably

(51:09):
not trying hard enough, or you're not,you're not open to the kind of change
that can occur when you're, when you'renot prescribing what it has to be.
And some of the best ideas and thebest outcomes are things you could not
have predicted- Yeah ... and shouldnot have predicted, and that's where I
think the real, that's where the realgreat stuff happens, and you have to

(51:29):
be a- able to, um, make that possible.
I loved when you guys were talkingabout, um, change in philanthropy,
but, you know, philanthropy movingat the speed of philanthropy.
Mm. And I was trying to figure out, isthis, what is the speed of philanthropy?
Is that glacial?
Is it, is it, is is it seismic?

(51:50):
You know,
it was like,
like-
I wish it was the speed ofglacial melt Right, exactly.
And yet at the, at the same time,because of work like this and other
initiatives, um, these new lessons,these new opportunities for how
to do this are, are, um, beingincreasingly embraced by the field.
And I, and it does sound like thisnotion of, um, you know, one of the

(52:11):
big requests from nonprofits to theirfunders forever has been just give
me unrestricted resources, allow meto direct these resources in whatever
way makes the most sense for us,what we're trying to do here, the
circumstances that we're responding to.
The landscape is shifting.
Even if our mission's staying thesame, how we need to tactically
move through whatever's happening infront of us is gonna shift, so please

(52:31):
let us, give us some flexibility.
And it sounds like at least in somerespects that, that, that notion of,
okay, if we're gonna partner withyou, foundation to a nonprofit, part
of that partnership is gonna getexpressed in our capacity to fund you
as a non- as an unrestricted donor.
That, that feels like a verywelcome and a very important thing
that may be happening with it.
You know, not everywhere, not as quicklyas maybe folks would like, but at

(52:53):
least it's happening in some respects.
Yep.
General support.
Just give it.
Well, Marc Moorghen, I mean, thankyou so much for the work you're doing.
Um, I would love to meetyou in person sometime.
You'll find that I'm not Hagrid.
You're, you're massive, Mark.
You are so much bigger than people.
I also don't have your spectacularaccent, and, uh, and I'm definitely

(53:16):
not one of the nicest, finestpeople that Eric has ever met, but,
but I'm- Oh, you're in the top.
You know, you're up there.
You're in the, the top, you know-I'm in a cohort ... at 1/10 of 1%.
I, I'm, I'm in a certain
segment.
I'm in a certain segment.
But, but seriously, Leverfor Change, oh my gosh.
You know, $2.5 billionso far in six years.
That's gonna grow many times over,and, um, Mark and your colleagues,

(53:40):
you're, um, you're making it happen.
So Eric, I mean, this issuch a great conversation.
I'm so glad we got to be part of it.
And Mark, I just wanna say, keep it going.
Thank you so much for the work you'redoing, and I, I just hope nothing but
success ahead for Lever for Change.
Okay, everybody, that'sit for this episode.
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.

(54:04):
And we'd like to thank JohnAlleee, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music.
Our sponsor,
the Lumina Foundation.
And please check out Lumina'sterrific podcast, Today's Students,
Tomorrow's Talent, and you canfind that at luminafoundation.org.
We
certainly thank today's guest,and of course, all of you.
And most importantly,thank you, Mr. Brown.

(54:25):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Okay, everybody.
Till next time.