So You Wanna Be a Consultant? Going Independent with Regan Douglass

A lot of people who work in nonprofits and foundations eventually get the tickle. You know the one. What if I just... went out on my own?

Regan Douglass did something about it. After years as a communications leader at PolicyLink, California Humanities, and the College Futures Foundation, she pulled the ripcord and launched Sparkwise Communications. Two years in, no regrets.

In this episode, Eric sits down with Regan to discuss what it actually takes to go independent — how thick your stomach lining needs to be, how to structure your business, how to smell the tuna fish sandwich wrapped in a red flag before you sign the contract, and how to hold onto your own voice when you've spent years inhabiting someone else's.

This one's for everyone who's been sitting on the egg. It's time to let it hatch.

Follow Let's Hear It, leave a rating, and help more people find the show.

Episode Transcript

Kirk Brown (00:00):
Welcome to.
Let's Hear It.

Eric Brown (00:01):
Let's Hear.
It is a podcast for and about thefield of foundation and nonprofit
communications produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No relation.

Kirk Brown (00:12):
Well said Eric.
And I'm Kirk.

Eric Brown (00:14):
And I'm Eric.
Let's hear.
It is sponsored by the Kenneth RaininFoundation, which enhances quality of
life by championing the arts, promotingearly childhood literacy and supporting
research to cure chronic disease.
[e-mail], we arealso sponsored by the Previs
Foundation, a foundation creatingan inclusive, equitable, and
dynamic future for all San Diegans.

(00:35):
Check out their amazingly goodpodcast Stop and Talk, hosted by
Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
You can find them at stopand talk podcast.com.

Kirk Brown (00:43):
You can find, let's hear it on any podcast subscription platform.

Eric Brown (00:46):
You can find us online at, let's [e-mail].

Kirk Brown (00:49):
And if you'd like the show, please, please, please rate us on Apple
Podcasts so that more people can find us.
Let's get onto the show.
So do you think we talkabout courage enough?

Eric Brown (00:59):
Courage.

Kirk Brown (01:00):
Courage.

Eric Brown (01:02):
What, what is this?
Wizard?
It Oz.

Kirk Brown (01:04):
Think about all of the courage that's playing out across
our field every day right now.
Okay.
Given that's going on,

Eric Brown (01:11):
there is,

Kirk Brown (01:12):
and I think this conversation that we're about to have is about courage
as much as it's about communications.

Eric Brown (01:22):
Yeah.
That what a what a what an interestingand delightful bit of framing.

Kirk Brown (01:27):
This is what I do for you.
See, all of a sudden you're like, andnow I wanna have this conversation.
See, you know, stick with me kid.
You'll have so much work to do.

Eric Brown (01:38):
I just hope you're taking your blood pressure meds.

Kirk Brown (01:41):
So you gonna, this

Eric Brown (01:42):
explode.

Kirk Brown (01:43):
This conversation is about courage.
Courage,

Eric Brown (01:46):
courage.

Kirk Brown (01:46):
Set it up and then we'll come back and I'll, I'll go further.
I range the knife.
This is about courage.

Eric Brown (01:52):
Okay?
I spoke to my friend and colleague,Reagan Douglas, who is the principal
of Spark Wise Communications, acommunications shop consultancy.
And I thought it was timefor some news you can use.

Kirk Brown (02:08):
Mm.

Eric Brown (02:08):
By which, I mean a lot of folks come to me asking me,
is it time to hang out a shingle?
Should I start my own thing?
Should I start, become, should I consult?
And uh, and I have lots of thoughts.
And so I thought it might be funto have Regan come on, who, two
years ago she hung out a shingle.
She showed courage.

Kirk Brown (02:28):
There you have it.
See?

Eric Brown (02:31):
And uh, and we had this great conversation about what is
it like to become a consultant?

Kirk Brown (02:37):
And it seems that reading is no worse for the wear.
And having done that, which,which I've seen others track,
follow this path of leaving.
The big institutions hanging out theshingle and and doing quite well.
So let's call out Spark [e-mail].
And Regan Douglas is the principaland I would argue founding principle

(02:59):
of Spark Wise Communications.
So this is Regan Douglas on, let'shear, we'll listen and we'll come back

Eric Brown (03:06):
at some point.
A lot of people who work in nonprofitsor foundations get the tickle.
They start asking themselves,uh, what if I didn't have to
give or get performance reviews?
What if I didn't have to be inmeetings to decide what snacks to
serve to guests of my foundation?
What if I could just spendmy time doing strategy or

(03:26):
messaging or other actual work?
What if I didn't have to show my faceat an office when I could be just as
productive, if not more so at home?
What if I didn't have to wear pants?
What if I could take my skills and talentsto lots of organizations and make an
even bigger difference in the world?
What if I hung out ashingle and was my own boss?

(03:49):
My guest today made that call.
Regan Douglas spent years asa communications executive at
PolicyLink, California Humanitiesand the College Futures Foundation.
Before launching Spark WiseCommunications, her own consulting
practice, she pulled the ripcord.
Now, I made the same leap over adecade ago, and it was one of the

(04:10):
best decisions I ever made, but Ialso know it's not for everyone.
But today, we're trying to give yousomething you know useful, whether you're
seriously considering going independentor just letting the idea simmer.
What does it actually take?
What does it actually cost, and whatdoes it feel like when the only name
on the org chart is yours, ReganDouglas, my pal, my partner in crime.

(04:33):
Welcome to, let's Hear It.

Regan Douglass (04:36):
Hi, Eric.
It's nice to see you.
It's always nice to see you.
And , yes, I made the jump.
Love the ripcord reference.
You are known for evencrazier metaphors than that.
I would just like to say, it's one thingI've appreciated about you, but leaping
into consulting has been fantastic.
No regrets.

Eric Brown (04:55):
Yes, I I, I was a restrained metaphor assist in the cold open here.
So, but you know, whoknows where we'll go.
Actually, I may drop anotherfun metaphor on you later.
Let's just, oh, let's just get started byhow'd you get started in communication?
Nobody does that on purpose.

Regan Douglass (05:11):
Nobody does it on purpose, except if you are the well.
I think my earliest firstcalling actually was justice.
I had a little justice heart.
I wanted to right the wrongs in the world.
Occasionally I wanted to tell people whatto do, and, , I read a lot and I watched

(05:33):
a lot of performances and I wrote a lot.
And I knew I wanted to be a writer.
I loved the look on people'sfaces and audience when they
were sort of spelled by language.
So those things kind of mashed togetherat some point, , in the primordial group.
But I, I will say it wasstill somewhat accidental.

(05:54):
I started working for PolicyLink.
I was on their research and programteam, and then I just absolutely
fell in love with the communications.
It felt to me like that iswhere the magic sauce was.
That was the place where, you know,if you wanted to see major systemic
change, major policy wins in theworld, you needed to figure out who

(06:17):
you were talking to and what you neededthem to understand or do differently.
And that happens in thecommunications shop, and it happens
with communications partners.
So I suppose you could say Ibacked into it, , but happily.
And

Eric Brown (06:31):
then, so you're at Policy Link and then you
went to California Humanities.
What'd you do there?

Regan Douglass (06:35):
I went to California Humanities by way of a graduate school
writing program, and I was going back andforth between being a journalist and going
into a writing program for grad school.
Things have been a little crazy forjournalists these last few years.
Oh really?
I have no idea.
These last 15 years.
Yeah.
I don't know if you've, I don'tknow if you've read that in the
news, but it's been a littlebit nuts, so there's no news to

Eric Brown (06:57):
read.
Maybe it's because ofthe dearth of journalists

Regan Douglass (07:01):
went to California humanities and, , the storytelling there.
At that time, a lot of our programmingwas around engaging a broad swath of
the public in conversations about whodo we want to be, who are we now, and
what are we learning from our history?
So, you know, post nine 11, majorrise in anti anti-Arab, American,

(07:27):
anti-Muslim sentiment hate crimes.
Having public conversationsabout, , is this who we are?
Is this who we wanna be?
Does this remind us of someplaces we've been in the past
with Japanese American internment?
What can we learn from that?
So those, those conversations, , I feltwere, were really, really important.
And it gave me, , some great insightinto an organization that was kind of a

(07:50):
combination of public and private and had,did some grant making, ran some of their
own programs, had a relationship withthe government, but had their own, their
own board and their own way of working.
So it was a great sort of, , tastingmenu of a lot of the things that
are available in the social sector.

Eric Brown (08:07):
And then, and then you went to College Futures Foundation.
You were the head of communicationsthere and you were digging down
deep on education in California.
What was that like?
And, you know, what was your job like?

Regan Douglass (08:19):
That job evolved a lot over time.
When I first came in, they weremoving into a place where they were
gonna be developing a policy agenda.
They were gonna be doing sort of majorchange across the state, around higher
ed economic opportunity for students,and I just wanted to be a part of that.
I thought it sounded so exciting and wehad some really interesting leadership

(08:44):
changes while I was there and it felt likea really great opportunity to build out
their communications team and functionand skills across the organization.
I got really lucky with some fantasticcolleagues, some policy colleagues
and some program colleagues whowere really hungry for partnership.

(09:04):
, Sometimes, you know, I think youhave to do a tremendous amount
of trust building until you canactually do projects together, but.
We did a little bit of that, but I mostlygot pretty lucky with what I walked into.
And, , then I also had the opportunityin addition to doing organization-wide
communications and executivecommunications to helping provide some

(09:26):
assistance to some of our grantees andtrainings and to building up our first
ever news media investment portfolio.
So we were funding news outlets, wewere funding documentary filmmakers.
And it was, , a really great opportunityto say, Hey, if what we wanna see
is these changes around this topic,it's gonna be virtually impossible

(09:49):
to do that without educating amuch broader swath of the public
in, , what the ins and outs of these.
Higher ed.
, Issues are, it was not somethingthat was covered by most newspapers.
If any newspapers hadan education reporter.
They were focused on K 12.
So just a tremendous amount of coverage.

(10:11):
And I think I worked with you, , onsome of that too, Eric, and learned
a lot , from other folks thathad been investing in journalism.

Eric Brown (10:19):
Yes, it's quite possible.
So.
Okay.
That all sounds great.
And yet,

Regan Douglass (10:23):
and yet,

Eric Brown (10:23):
here you are.

Regan Douglass (10:24):
Here I am.

Eric Brown (10:24):
On your own.

Regan Douglass (10:25):
On my own.

Eric Brown (10:26):
What was the thing . That inspired you to go out on your own?

Regan Douglass (10:29):
I think the biggest thing was, so, I mean,
you just named a few of my jobs.
I've had some, something like 20different jobs in my career so far.
It used, it used to be ajoke at College Futures.
Whenever we had outside folks come inand talk about our previous work, folks
would just say, okay, Regan, you know, to,what's the weirdest job you've ever had?

(10:53):
And I could inevitably namethree or four or five examples.
But, , having worked, you know, insidea foundation for over 10 years at a
nonprofit, at a research and advocacypublic policy think tank, I worked
for a city and regional government.
I worked in internal comms fora multinational corporation.

(11:15):
I've been in the classroom, I, andthen, and then on, on down and out
and up and weirder and weirder, Ithink across all of these sectors.
I've always seen this common threadthat there tends to be a focus on
communications activity and not strategy.
And so, you know, that'sless about frustration with

(11:38):
wearing pants to the office.
And I do, I do missthe snacks, I will say.

Eric Brown (11:43):
Yeah.

Regan Douglass (11:44):
Um,
yeah,
the performance reviews, , nobody loves, although there's, you
know, there's ways to make 'em alittle bit more entertaining and, and
useful, but strategic communicationsis such a special, just a jet fuel
that can get you further fasterwith the work you're trying to do.
And the thing that was making me beatmy head against the wall was seeing how

(12:08):
many different organizations were sortof picking from a menu of different
activities without a clear plan for.
What was the change they wanted to seein the world and with which audiences?
And how do you focus your, yourresources, your activities, your
choices to get you that outcome?

(12:30):
And it sounds so simple, butit's really kind of challenging.
And communications tends to be oneof those things that a lot of folks
think they can do because we'reall talking to each other and we're
all, you know, reading and writingand consuming media and telling
stories and all of those things.

(12:50):
And of course we all can, butcoming up with a really, , clear
and fantastic strategy.
That works.
That helps us say yes to some thingsand no, to many, many other things.
That's the hard part and that'swhere it's really useful.
Having a buddy you, I mean,you were saying, what's it
like being out on your own?

(13:11):
I am and I'm not.
I am.
I've got my shop, but I am partneringwith lots of different folks who
that's what they want is they wanta fresh pair of eyes and somebody
to help them be more strategic.
And I don't mean strategic in the senseof this is gonna be really expensive

(13:31):
and you can never implement it.
I mean strategic in the sense of focused.
We know it's gonna get you whereyou need to go, and it's actually
something that you can do on yourown or with a little bit of help.
I'm all about the solutions thatactually live and work in the real world,
otherwise, what on earth is the point?

Eric Brown (13:51):
Well, I think there's probably a lot of people who are.
Are there with you thinking,Ooh, I might be able to have the
opportunity to help organizationsactually do strategy, for example.
, And yet you're still in your job.
You can hear me and you knowwho you are still in your job.
What, what, was there somethingin particular, or was there some
kind of flash of inspiration?

(14:12):
You know, you'd be sittingon this egg for a long time.
Like how do you get it to hatch?

Regan Douglass (14:18):
You sound like the pied piper of consulting.
Like you're trying to drop, are youtrying to draw people to the dark side?
Eric's

Eric Brown (14:25):
like, there's 10 people gonna send me their mortgage statement.

Regan Douglass (14:31):
Well, I think one of the things that holds people
back is the, the idea of whatstability is and looks like and
whether or not knowing exactly whatto a certain extent each month is
gonna hold financially in terms ofyour responsibilities, et cetera.
And I am, uh, hardwired to enjoy change.

(14:51):
I think that might be a littleodd, but I like different
projects, different challenges.
I like growing and learning.
Um, and, and I don't like doing the samething all the time, and I don't mind
sort of weathering the ebbs and flows.
, I guess that's a tolerance answers,like, can you hack , the ebbs and flows?
And if you can, and if you cansee opportunity in that, then.

(15:14):
This is the life for you.
Right.
I think the other thing that really,the, the little whisper in my ear became
louder and louder and louder when Irealized, you know, I'd been doing
communications in-house for many, manyyears, loved it, learned a lot, but
was losing my independent voice andperspective because at some point you

(15:41):
become so married to the institutionalvoice and or the executive voice.
, Whether that's ghost writing or in, youknow, kind of inhabiting other people's
thoughts or being, , the coach that'sglued to the internal team and helping
them figure out what they wanna say.
And, , I think at heartI am a storyteller.

(16:05):
, And storytelling is really the thingthat helps us imagine possibilities other
than the reality we're living in now.
And I felt that it's a use it or loseit situation where at some, at some
point I might just be fully absorbed.
I don't know if it's fully absorbedby the Matrix or the Borg or what it

(16:27):
is, but that I'm probably needed tounplug before that happened and find
my creativity and my storytelling againso that I could use it for lots of
different topics and causes, , and lotsof different, , folks who are working
on different things at different times.
And that's, that's what became the,the urge that I could not ignore.

Eric Brown (16:52):
Well, yeah, I find that the storytelling is deep in the lipids.
You can always draw down upon itsome point, even if it, uh, if it.
Loses its prominence sometimes.
And the other thing I was thinkingabout, I, whenever anyone ever asked me
should I go out on my own, I just askedthem, , how thick is your stomach lining?

Regan Douglass (17:08):
It's good.

Eric Brown (17:08):
That's a, that is, that is the, that is the metric.
We're gonna take a very, very quick breakand we'll, we will be back with Regan
Douglass of Spark Wise Communications.
We're gonna talk a little bit more aboutnuts and bolts right after this break.

Kirk Brown (17:20):
You're listening to, let's Hear It, a podcast
about foundation and nonprofit

Eric Brown (17:24):
communications hosted by Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Breakfa Ruleswith Glen Gallic, CEO of the Stuss Ski
Foundation, as he chats with inspiringleaders in philanthropy, government
media, and more about breaking the fakerules that don't work so that we can
build a future that does Check themout wherever you get your podcasts.

(17:46):
And now back to the show.
We are back with Regan Douglasof Spark Wise Communications, who
not last year hung out a shingle.
This was last year, wasn't it?

Regan Douglass (18:00):
It's been almost two years.

Eric Brown (18:02):
Ah, I can't believe it's been two years.
Wow.

Regan Douglass (18:04):
I know.
Time passes

Eric Brown (18:06):
how time flies.
Good lord.
Okay.
Let's talk a little bit ofthe practical part of this.
Okay.
Like the, you know, notthe vision, the plumbing.
Like how did you structure your business?
How did you figure out your rates?
How'd you get your first client?
I mean, all that stuff.
Sounds like there's a lot of, you know,there's a website, like all this stuff.
You used to have somebody who didstuff for you and now you are that guy.

(18:28):
What was that like?
What'd you do?

Regan Douglass (18:30):
Oh, I didn't always have somebody who did stuff for me.

Eric Brown (18:35):
There was like it, and there was whatever people.

Regan Douglass (18:38):
That's where you're wrong.
No, I, I'm just kidding.
I did have, I sometimes hadpeople who did stuff for me.
I was lucky in that I'd had somejobs that were soup to nuts.
But, you know, the highly technicalskills, those, those go away quickly
as the external environment changes.
So, yeah, I, I talked to a lot of people.
I did my research.

(18:59):
I, I did enough research.
I didn't do so much research sothat I became paralyzed by the
fear of, oh, I can't plan at all.
I eventually just picked a date, madethe leap, but I, I had the benefit of a
number of colleagues who had gone in andout of consulting who told me what, you

(19:20):
told me, how thick is your stomach lining?
Do you have, uh, the, thetemperament for lots and lots
of change and the unexpected?
Do you have a core set ofskills that you like to offer?
And for me it was strategiccommunications, coaching, campaign
development, that sort of thing.
Messaging, storytelling.

(19:40):
, So that was really useful.
I decided that I really wanted to bea shop of one for a while because I.
Didn't wanna leap into somethingthat was over structured and onerous
and wouldn't allow me to be nimble.
I had heard too many stories frompeople that they thought they knew

(20:02):
where they wanted to specialize,and actually once they started doing
consulting, they changed their minds.
Or, uh, you know, they thought everythingwas great and they had work for three
years and then the economy changed andthey couldn't pay , their hires and it
was, it was not a good feeling for anyone.
So, uh, those are acouple of things I did.
The website was easy peasy.

(20:23):
That's something I've done a lot.
And they're tons of great developersout there who can help you with the
technical backend if you need that.
And, , you know, theother thing I would say.
, I got some great advice about finances.
I got some good advice about when Iam ready to partner with other folks,
which I've done how to do that in a waythat's, you know, gonna be above board

(20:44):
and in the clear and work for everyone.
You'll be able to share information,you won't get blasted for
some sort of legal infraction.
All that was really helpful.
So I would say, do your homework.
Consult a lawyer at least for an hour.
Check that person's wall to makesure they have a real diploma.

(21:05):
Uh, you know, good idea.
Think about what sort of tech doyou wanna file as an LLCS corp,
all of those kinds of things.
But the bigger thing to wrap yourhead around is, , how do you want
to spend the majority of your time?
How do you make sure that you'renot, , only doing the work
that's right in front of you?

(21:26):
You're, you've constantly con, kindof got a pipeline of conversations
going on and new work coming in.
, The other thing I will say,and you tell me, Eric, if this
is nuts and boltsy enough, but

Eric Brown (21:39):
I, yeah.

Regan Douglass (21:39):
One of my biggest tips for consultants.
And, and I've been onthe other side, right?
I have plenty of opinions abouthow a consultant should or
shouldn't work with a nonprofit ora foundation and what they offer.
And I've, I've hired and I've been acrossthe table, so I, I really do understand,
I think if you approach conversations lesslike pitches and more like you are talking

(22:05):
with someone about ideas, you're talkingwith someone who cares passionately
about the work just as you do.
And you want to figure out a solutionthat's gonna serve the work, that is a
conversation that opens up possibilities,that helps you listen much better, that

(22:26):
helps you be more clear sighted aboutwhether or not you are actually a good
fit for the project or if somebody elsemight be, uh, and helps you come back to
the client too sometimes and say, I knowyou, you think you want a, and I hear you.
What about this other structure?
What about this other thing first?
And it's just a totally differentkind of conversation then.

(22:50):
I am desperate to close thiscontract in the way this project was
originally written within 45 minutes.
I, I think that shuts bothfolks in the conversation down.
So that would, that's probably mybiggest tip to people who are first
starting out, who may not be comfortablegoing out and finding their own work

(23:10):
for the first time in their lives.

Eric Brown (23:12):
There's a, there's a variant on that, which is something
every, so you go into one of thesethings and you smell something funky.

Regan Douglass (23:17):
Yes.

Eric Brown (23:19):
And you go, I uhoh, I smell something funky.
I think there's something rottenand it's in the back of the
fridge and I uhoh something's.
You know?
And, and when you smell that funkything, I always tell people, get out.

Regan Douglass (23:32):
Yep.

Eric Brown (23:33):
There, there, it may be a lot of money, it may be a great
opportunity, it may be a greatorganization, but if you smell that funky
funk, it's there and you gotta get out.
That's my little piece of advice.

Regan Douglass (23:42):
Listen to your instincts.
And sometimes it can be alittle challenging to get back
in touch with your instincts.

Eric Brown (23:48):
Yeah.

Regan Douglass (23:49):
Right.
Some of us have done a really greatjob of shoving our instincts down
and ignoring them and soldiering on.
. I mean, this is a weird.
This is a strange moment in ourhistory for instincts, but yes,
if you think you smell a tuna fishsandwich wrapped in a giant red
flag, that's probably what it is.

Eric Brown (24:07):
Yeah, I've, I've had to do that and it's just hard.
Uh, one of the things I, I've noticed,and it often happens, you end up with
lots of different kinds of things andit sometimes feels like you're spinning
plates with one hand and juggling.
I don't know whatchainsaws with the other,

Regan Douglass (24:24):
whoa,

Eric Brown (24:25):
you know,

Regan Douglass (24:25):
do you have a chain mail?
Glove is what I wanna know.
And does it go all the way up your arm?
Because I'm veryconcerned about, you know,

Eric Brown (24:34):
covers my head if I'm lucky.
What, uh, how do you manage lotsof different kinds of things with
different kind, because, you know,you're doing different kinds of work
invariably with different clients, right?
Are, is that something you like?
Is it something you're good at?
If not, how do you deal with it?
All that kind of stuff.
How do you manage the, the, the stuff.

Regan Douglass (24:53):
The stuff there.
Have you heard this term fomo before?

Eric Brown (24:58):
Yeah, of course.
I've, I, I have you

Regan Douglass (24:59):
heard?

Eric Brown (25:00):
That's why I never, that's why I never go to bed
before four at the com conference.
'cause I know thatthere's a party somewhere.

Regan Douglass (25:06):
Oh, fantastic.
Have you heard the term,have you heard the term Jomo?

Eric Brown (25:10):
No.
I don't know from this Jomo.

Regan Douglass (25:12):
It's the joy of missing out.

Eric Brown (25:13):
Oh, I have no Jomo.

Regan Douglass (25:16):
The joy of missing out is, uh, that comes with
consulting is significantly feweradministrative and executive meetings.
And I love

Eric Brown (25:26):
Oh, that, yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah.

Regan Douglass (25:28):
I love humans.
So that opens up a whole new world of timethat you, you just didn't have before.
Right.
So there's that.
I think I would say one great thing aboutconsulting is the natural ebbs and flows.
There might be many months on end whenyou are just crazy busy and it's early

(25:51):
mornings and late nights and weekends, buteventually there will be a downtime that
will come when things will not come in.
And you can use that time to do someof your bigger thinking and cultivation
or just resting right vacation, , thatyou didn't, you weren't planning
to take, but now you're enjoying.
The other thing is.

(26:12):
There should be through linesfrom one piece to another.
. And, , the more you learn andrealize as you go, the more you are
able to set up materials that willhelp you handle it when you have 30
different things going on, right?
So it's like, okay, I need this, thistemplate, this boilerplate, this thing

(26:33):
that I can tailor each time and thenext time I, I won't be staring at
a, you know, a blank sheet of paper.
I'll have a, an entry point or.
I've done some research and itapplies to several different
projects that I'm working on there.
It's really different for thesedifferent clients, but some of
the research is a useful basis.

(26:54):
So those are a couple of things that I do.
Again, working with partners and figuringout what do you uniquely do really well
and what can you bring somebody elsein so that you can take on more work
and you're not absolutely drowning andthe quality of the work doesn't suffer.
, Those I would say are the main ones.

Eric Brown (27:16):
Is there something about , being an independent consultant
that nobody warned you about?
It could be psychological, it could bejust the essence of that kind of job.
Anything you weren't expecting.

Regan Douglass (27:30):
I've always heard, and I, I've done consulting off and on over
the years, but this, these last twoyears, this is the first time I've really
gone into it a hundred percent solo.
It's my, that's my main focusand that is quite different.
, I have heard and seen that it canbe difficult to get information
sometimes that you might have whenyou're inside an organization or like

(27:54):
a fulsome picture of the situation.
One, a positive thing that nobodywarned me about is that there's
actually a benefit to that.
. It's sometimes it's really great tonot be drowning in all the details and
to just get the highlights, even ifthose highlights are very much colored

(28:14):
by the timing of your conversation.
It's just, where are you now?
. And then.
You pull on the tendrils ofwhat do you need to know?
And it naturally limitsthe scope of the work.
I don't know if you had this experiencewhen you were in-house, but for me,
almost every place I've been in-houseand most of my peers and colleagues
who are in the communications role,you sometimes end up becoming kind of

(28:37):
therapist or counselor for the staff oryou know, surrogate strategy developer.
For any area of work orthere's, there's creep, right?
There's creep in the job andit, it just, the longer you're
there, the bigger it gets.
So, um, that's one thing I would say.
Another thing I would say, along thosesame lines, I have been surprised by how

(29:00):
difficult it can be to get clear feedback.
And I don't mean just, , yay,that was great and it was
wonderful and life changing.
Let's keep going.
But actually here's, this is what Iwas envisioning when we started the
project and here's how it worked.
And this is what I'm dealingwith internally and sometimes

(29:20):
I'll see the effect of thosedecisions and I have to back map
what happened and then figure out.
Okay.
I, I am, I'm intuiting that you'rehaving this difficult issue over
here with a set of colleagues.
This is actually not, you know,a communications issue that can
be solved by you, with your team.

(29:41):
This is actually a conversation you needto have with the CEO or the board, right?
This is like an org wide mission questionthat has been laid at your feet, but
you're not telling me and you're thinkingit's a communications issue, right?
So that, those kinds of things, all underthe header of interpersonal communication,
like we're not that great as a societyas at giving feedback that's designed for

(30:07):
a difficult, constructive conversation.
I think we need to feel safe and weneed to feel like we trust the other
person in order to be able to do that.
And it's one of my, my biggest goalswith every partner I work with is
to make them understand that I am ontheir team and that they can tell me
anything that's gonna make the workbetter and more useful and that I

(30:31):
wanna hear anything they wanna tell me.
Uh, but it takes time.

Eric Brown (30:35):
Yeah.
Alright.
So let's just say there'ssomeone's listening.
They're like, oh my God, Iwould, I wanna be Regan, I
wanna do exactly what Regan did.
Is there a question?
Is there a question you'd wantthem to be honest with themselves
about before they did that?

Regan Douglass (30:47):
Well, I will make it a little bit about this moment and say
that we're, we're in a really particularmoment in our field, and so, , many of
your listeners are foundation, nonprofitfolks doing good at mission-driven
orgs, , in the social sector, right?
And

Eric Brown (31:07):
all of our listeners are doing good.
They're, , if they're not doinggood, they're not allowed to listen.

Regan Douglass (31:11):
They're doing good in their sleep even,
and they don't even know it.
That is how pure of heart andintention they are, right?
So,

Eric Brown (31:21):
well only sometimes I only do well in my dreams, but, you
know, and, and then when I wake up I'mlike, ah, but anyway, go, go ahead.

Regan Douglass (31:32):
I don't believe that for one minute, but I'm glad, I'm glad
to hear that you're having good dreams.
Uh, you might be.

Eric Brown (31:38):
I'm a much better, I'm a much better consultant in my dreams.

Regan Douglass (31:42):
Oh, same.
This

Eric Brown (31:43):
is true.

Regan Douglass (31:44):
Same.
I think that, you know, I, our fieldgoes through moments like many do,
especially many that are so tied towhat's happening socially, economically,
politically, , more openness andtransparency, more of a sense of

(32:06):
kind of coherent movement building.
And that's an environment where I thinkpeople feel more comfortable being open.
It's clearer that different folks cancontribute different things, but you're
all working towards the same goal.
And right now I think a lot of people arefeeling like a lot of nonprofit leaders.

(32:29):
, A lot of researchers and advisors and,, the folks who benefit from the work
of nonprofits are feeling like we'rein an environment that's more of a, a.
S resource scarcity environment.
There's a lot of chaos comingat foundations and nonprofits
and public serving institutions.

(32:50):
That's by design.
It has a chilling effect.
It has a distracting effect.
And I'm, as a result of some of that,that pivoting or that paralysis, I am
seeing folks be a little more guardedand a, and a little more in the sort
of zero sum game competition space.
And I completely get it.

(33:10):
I understand.
Yep.
I don't think there's any maliciousintent, but I would say think about who
you are as a consultant in that moment.
And I understand that , there's adegree of privilege embedded in it.
It, it's, it's part of the reason that,. I would love to see more foundations
and nonprofits intentionally support,, women-led consultancies, consultancies

(33:36):
that are led by people of color,consultancies that are coming up out of
the communities that they serve, and arereally contributing a perspective that
foundation or nonprofit , may not have.
Who are you in that moment?
If, , it's more of , ascarcity environment, and
how are you gonna operate?

(33:56):
, Whether that's your own mental health,whether that's your strategy, whether
that's your savings, I, I mean that inthe most practical way, but I also mean
that in the mindset way of like, canyou show up every day and not freak out?
Are you still able to do good work?
Is it worthwhile?
. And for me, I think thatI, I really believe that.

(34:22):
Systems sometimes.
Can't really be improvedenough around the margins.
They have to be profoundlyreimagined and replaced.
And I think some, sometimesthese moments of intense upheaval
result in, , a better world, but.
You have to engage with that.
You have to be the dreamer andthe storyteller that sees the

(34:44):
utopia and doesn't back away.
And that requires, , the thick stomachlining that you were talking about.

Eric Brown (34:51):
Well, I, I, I could not agree with you more.
I also think that it, in a sense, itgives you, and, and our colleagues in
the consulting world an opportunityto help folks navigate these difficult
times because it does, because folksreally do, can turn in word, can
lose some perspective and can operateout of fear and understandably so.

(35:17):
But boy, oh boy, is it helpfulto have somebody come in and talk
'em off the ledge and give them

Kirk Brown (35:24):
Yeah.

Eric Brown (35:24):
Very specific things to do and help guide them through difficult times.
So, uh, without, you know, putting toofine a point on it, I think that , the.
Prospect for these kinds ofpartnerships is very real and
it can be really productive.
And if I were hiring somebody, youwould be at the top of my list.
Uh, I I have so much enjoyedworking with you over the years.

(35:47):
, I'm thrilled that your work , isas robust and wonderful as it is
Regan Douglas, thank you so muchfor coming on and talking with us.

Regan Douglass (35:56):
Thank you, Eric.
It was lovely to see you as always.

Kirk Brown (36:00):
And we're back.
So before we get to the communicationsand the wisdom and the good humor and
the willingness to waste time with us onour podcast, which is always so generous.

Eric Brown (36:11):
Yes.

Kirk Brown (36:12):
I am telling you this is about courage.
Regan has worked for some verysignificant organizations over a storied
career, has accomplished so much.
And at a certain point,Regan says, you know what?
Now's the time.
So mug all of Regan's incrediblegifts, talents, and experience this

(36:35):
decision to step into this role.
It's just, it's incredibly courageous.
And, and I, I guess I'm wanting to callthis out so much because first I wanna
acknowledge and congratulate Regan on thechange and be willing to talk about it.
But also, who knows how many ofour listeners might have this
itch, might be thinking, you knowwhat, maybe I could have impact.
And I say, do it.
Just like we say, write the book.

(36:55):
Do this, make this change.
Make this change.

Eric Brown (36:58):
I, I agree.
I now, it was for me, the, as Isaid, I think in the beginning, one
of the best decisions I ever made.
Uh, the other one was, um.
Proposing to my wife, although shewill say that she proposed to me.
There is a point of contention there.

Kirk Brown (37:13):
Where on that list, where on that list is this podcast?

Eric Brown (37:16):
Uh, very, very low.
Okay.
It's, it's somewhere betweenwhether I, uh, getting the gray
suit instead of the blue suit.

Kirk Brown (37:26):
Okay, gotcha.

Eric Brown (37:26):
But anyway, so after getting married and deciding have
a child, uh, becoming a a my ownconsultant was probably the best
and smartest decision I ever made.
And so it can work for peopleand it's certainly working
for Regan who is really good.
She's, she's busy, she's so engaged,and as, as you got from this
conversation, she's the kind ofperson you wanna bounce ideas off of.

(37:48):
She's the kind of person you wannahave in the room to teach you stuff.
Yeah.
And I think that is one of theroles, uh, that a consultant.
Should, can and should play

Kirk Brown (37:58):
well.
And this glimmer of insight, you know,Regan describes having that justice
heart, you know, wanting to see aworld that's fundamentally better
and can be changed for the good, butthen recognizing that communications
is where the special sauce happens.
Yeah.
And I think this is this huge trajectorythat change and philanthropy is still
making, and it makes me have a question.

(38:21):
Is it still, is communicationstill the add-on thing that
gets tacked onto the strategy?
Or is it actually thecenterpiece of the strategy?
Because I think we would argue it'sgotta be the centerpiece, but, but
it still feels like it floats aroundsomewhere in the ether a lot of the time.
And, and, and Regan gets, thisis like no, communications has
gotta be at the centerpiece ofhow you think about strategy.

Eric Brown (38:42):
Communications is the camel's nose under the strategy tent?
I've said it many times andit's true because what'll happen
is someone will bring you in.
It's like, oh, we, we need,we need to do some messaging.
And you go, yeah, sure.
I know what you, I knowwhere this is going.
Like, yeah, we have to, weneed to name this thing.
And then you start asking, youask four questions about what
are you trying to achieve?
And they go, damnit,we need to do strategy.

(39:05):
And then you end up asking these strategicquestions and then you're into strategy.
That's, that's always how it goes.

Kirk Brown (39:10):
And so how did Regan really say that she's had like 20
different jobs during your conversation?
So, 'cause that's the other thingtoo, to do this communications work
artfully strategically and well.
You need to draw on so muchexperience and expertise.
And I would say that as Reganis moving through the world

(39:30):
and collecting these differentexperiences, that's all coming in.
That's all part of then the packageof what becomes Regan Douglas
at Spark Wastes communications.
Like that's, that's what you're drawinginto when you actually, when you actually
pull on the resources of a consultancylike this, you get more than that person.
You get more than thatcommunications expertise.
You get this worldview that's beenshaping all these different experiences.

(39:51):
And I would, I would argue, Eric,that that's a version of what
happened for you too when youleft your big institutional job.
Now all of a sudden you're sitting inthese different settings and you can
bring all of this experience to bearand it's just, it makes you a very
nimble player in this, in this verykind of crazy, weird nichey world that
we live in related to all this stuff.

Eric Brown (40:10):
Well, when people hire me, they think they're getting the
guy who used to run communicationsat the Hewlett Foundation.
But what I'm really drawing upon isthe time that I spent teaching comedy
traffic school, 'cause basically.

Kirk Brown (40:23):
Tell us more.

Eric Brown (40:24):
Well, I was in college and, and I saw a flyer and so I took the
test or whatever I had to do, and theycertifies me, certified me to teach comedy
traffic school, which I would do on aSaturday morning at eight o'clock out in
Walnut Creek or someplace Very, you know,different from where I was in Berkeley.
And we'd sit there for eighthours in a hotel room, conference

(40:47):
room, and I would have to teach,uh, you know, traffic school.
And I was supposed to be funny.
So you go in with this expectation,like, okay buddy, make me laugh.
I'm not supposed to be here.
And then you run outta material inabout two hours and you have to teach
eight or, or else it's a felony, soyou gotta fill, figure out how to vamp.
So I would, it would vamp.

(41:08):
So

Kirk Brown (41:08):
interesting.

Eric Brown (41:08):
So I think more interesting work that I provide draws from my
comedy traffic school days thanit does from anything I might've
learned at the Hewlett Foundation.

Kirk Brown (41:17):
Well, can we talk, so Regan was at the College Futures Foundation,
and can we talk a little bit about,there's so many different parts of
Regan's experience that we could drawon, but, but one thing that she mentioned
that struck me particularly, and this,this is a big deal when foundations
do do this, but she helped createa news media investment portfolio.

Eric Brown (41:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Kirk Brown (41:38):
At that foundation.
And so

Eric Brown (41:39):
totally cool.

Kirk Brown (41:40):
Oh, isn't that great?
So it's like, like you've got thewhole thing, you've got the strategy.
What are the policy outcomes we'retrying to create, here are all the
partners that can make this thing happen.
You of course bring in your top-notchcommunications consultants to
help amp up everybody's skills.
And you're getting into thefield and then all of a sudden
philanthropy realizes, oh yeah.
And we can invest in our ownmedia channels to create.

(42:03):
Coverage of these topics.
And, and the one thing I likeabout how our field does it versus
some others, Uhhuh, is that thisis fact-based, evidence-based.
Real journalism.
Factual journalism that's being supported.
Yes.
Right.
So it's so it's like multiple wins there.
Yes.
You know, we're not just seeding thefield with more crazy making propaganda.

(42:24):
This is like, no, actually can weput forward real stories told by real
people that capture real successesin the field, that are documented and
verifiable and are replicable becausethey're gonna be useful in other places.
So that part of what Reagan has done,I feel like that's another enormous
piece of the puzzle in terms ofwhat Reagan can bring to bear, is
that understanding of how this wholemechanism and pipe, the, the plumbing,

(42:47):
if you will, of communications, canreally help you get things done.

Eric Brown (42:51):
Well one of the things when you go out to become a consultant,
you, you try and figure out whatare the things I know that helps.
And one of the things I'm interestedin that also helps, and, and
that, so that gives you a leg up.
You don't always get that opportunity.
Sometimes someone will come and,and ask you to do something that
you haven't done or didn't thinkabout doing, let's just say.

(43:13):
But as my old boss, Paul Breast usedto say, this is a variation on that
is which, if you wanna learn aboutsomething, teach a class in it.
'cause he was a professor at Stanfordand they'd ask him to teach a class
that he didn't know anything about.
So he'd learn a lot about it.
And I also think if you wannalearn something, uh, then you
should become a consultant in it.
Mm-hmm.
And you, you know, you learn fastand usually it's just subject matter.

(43:35):
You get quick on subject matter,something that you didn't quite
know, and you have to learn quickly.
And actually it helps not to be toosteeped in subject matter as a consultant
anyway, because you don't wanna be theone who, you know, you hear the music
in your head and nobody else does.
Yeah.
So you have to come in at this, come intothis work with something of a, you know,
the Buddhist beginner's mind where you.

(43:55):
You act like the outsider 'cause you are.
Mm-hmm.
And you react to the things thatyou see based on that perspective.
And often, you know, we think we'retalking to folks who we're not actually
talking to, we're talking to ourselves.
And that's a big problem.
So I do think that, that sometimesyou go into a project that you
don't have a ton of familiaritywith and, and that's really helpful.

(44:17):
But the other part is find something thatyou know a lot about and you're good at.
And make that your, make that your area

Kirk Brown (44:23):
well, in this reflection alone would get me on the phone to hire
Spark Wise communications when Regan saysstrategic communications is jet fuel.
I love that way ofthinking about this work.
This is jet fuel.
And I, I kind of wish I'd had that.
Metaphor in my back pocketfor all these years, because

(44:44):
that's exactly how it works.
Like when you get this work ordered in theright way, with the right supports, with
the right stuff happening in the field,and the right messengers and storytellers,
and you're now, you're in narrative.
Now you're in, you know,uh, amplifying impact.
It's absolutely jet fuel.
And it's, it's so painful to see so manyof our organizations that are doing the

(45:07):
frontline work, the most important work.
They're not being fueled and, andit's, it's, it, it's so easy to say.
That's just a matter of, well.
Bad strategy and tactics.
I actually don't thinkthat's necessarily fair.
I actually don't think they're beingresourced at the level at which they need
to be so that they could take advantage.
Like you need the jet toput the fuel into, you know?
And, uh, so this is again, a rolethat a, that a consultant like

(45:29):
Reagan can play to like drop in,almost be that like, you know Yep.
Frontline person to say, Hey, thisis how we can get some quick wins.
This is how we can get this work done.
So I love that notion of jet fuel.
It's just, it's, it's, I love it.
It's just to totally on the mark,

Eric Brown (45:43):
I will have to give Regan a little bit of.
Stuff or using a fossil fuel reference.
But that's okay.

Kirk Brown (45:48):
Hey, you don't know what that fuel's made of.
You know, it could

Eric Brown (45:51):
be, I, I think I do

Kirk Brown (45:52):
che paste

Eric Brown (45:54):
bio.
I think it's made of dinosaurs.

Kirk Brown (45:56):
Could be, you know, electricity, who knows?
Could

Eric Brown (45:58):
be.
But that's okay thatwe forgive you, Regan.
I understand.
No, it's true.
That, that you, the communications,you come in and you do have the
opportunity to make those folksreally see how they can be successful,
how they can make a difference.
And it's not, I had this conversationtoday with somebody who, who mistook
communications for messaging like Uhuh.
Mm-hmm.

(46:19):
Because he is like, oh,that's just communications.
No, no, no.
Communications is the thing thatconnects you to your audience and.
To their heart that in inspires people.
That unlocks that.
That requires you to ask all of thestrategic questions about what it
is we're trying to achieve and whoit is we're trying to persuade, and
what is it that they care about.

(46:39):
And then how do I createmessages that connect with them,
that speak to their values?
That's they, that's not messaging.
That is understandinghow change gets made.
And that's what a really goodcommunications consultant can
do is, so don't be whatever.
I'm disusing anyone who thinksthat communications is like
messaging, so that's not what we do.

Kirk Brown (47:00):
So let's kick the tires a little bit.
Maybe kick the door open a little bit.

Eric Brown (47:05):
It's kicking

Kirk Brown (47:06):
for the person who's, who's thinking about what's down there across
the street, but they can't leave the15th story of the 40 story building that
they're in, where they've been doingthis institutional work for so long.
Let's talk a little bitabout the joy of missing out,

Eric Brown (47:21):
uh, Jomo

Kirk Brown (47:22):
Jomo, which was introduced.
So, so what are the thingsthat you start trading out of?
When you leave that massive institutionalhome, and there were a couple of
things that were right up top of mind.
You're not in this performance reviewfactory going on, which by the way,
the fact that that's such a knowndeficiency for most people's experience

(47:43):
just puts such a spotlight on like

Eric Brown (47:45):
nobody likes it.

Kirk Brown (47:46):
Maybe we need to be building capacity around performance and
performance management if it's such auniversally dreadful thing for everybody.
Yeah.

Eric Brown (47:55):
Nobody likes it.
Everybody hates it.

Kirk Brown (47:56):
I'll never forget, you know, my daughter was like, I don't know,
three or four, no younger than that.
Whenever you start getting your teeth,and we went to this kid's dentist for
the first time, and I'm like, wait aminute, when did they figure out that
making the dent going to the dentistcould be one of the funnest things
that could, could happen to a reallyyoung kid that was so, I wanna go

Eric Brown (48:14):
to the kids dentist.

Kirk Brown (48:15):
I was so angry.
I was like, right.
Like, wait, you're telling meI can't, I would love to go.
But, but this is a similar thing.
It's like the fact that theseperformance review processes
are so dreadful for all of us.
It's like we're still doing thatthing, you know, the, um, the notion,

Eric Brown (48:28):
next time I go in for a performance review, I wanna cook.

Kirk Brown (48:31):
Yeah, that's right.
Make it fun, make it engage.
How about,

Eric Brown (48:33):
and a, but I wanna, and a and a and a clown.

Kirk Brown (48:36):
How about something that meaningfully

Eric Brown (48:37):
not a scary
guy,

Kirk Brown (48:38):
energizes me and makes me excited to do the work.
How about that?
How about something there, but also

Eric Brown (48:43):
it's, you know, what that's called?
It's called a raise,

Kirk Brown (48:45):
but, but also the notion of.
Just being so married to aninstitutional organ executive, a
single executive voice, like actuallybeing able to branch out from that.
I thought that was interesting, thatnotion of like being fully absorbed
by the Borg and all of a suddennow you need to step out of that.
So I I, I do think from a, from acertain perspective, having watched

(49:06):
your work perform over time and, and,and we don't need to talk about mine,
but I have my own version of this.
Like, like actually being able tobe in the field, doing the stuff you
love, being directly involved with itand not having these layers of, let's
call it for what it is, bureaucracyor whatever you wanna say about it.
Yeah.
That's another enormous freedomthat shows up when you start
making transitions like this.

Eric Brown (49:27):
Yeah, that's right.
And it's, I, I, I once had agig where I was the interim.
I was running communications for afoundation and they asked me how much
time they thought I would need, and Iwould say, eh, 15 to 20 hours a week.
I'm like, what do youmean it's a full-time job?
Yeah, but the actual working part is15 to 20 hours a week, if you're lucky.

Regan Douglass (49:49):
Right?

Eric Brown (49:49):
Because the other 20 something hours a week is trying to figure.
You know, going to a meetingwhere you have to decide whether
to put, you know, peanuts in them and ms, that kind of thing.
Yeah.
You know what, what We once hada, I was once had a meeting where
we decided what, which doors tolock and which ones to leave open.
So, you know, that's not communication.

(50:09):
It's, it's brought of being agood organizational citizen.
You do it.
But the actual work ofthe thing that we do.
Eh, you don't do thatas nearly as much of it.
And actually as a communicationsdirector for after a while, I
wasn't doing anything at all.
Yeah.
I'm just hiring consultants to do thestuff that I don't have time to do
because I'm trying to figure out whetherwe should use peanut m and ms or not.

Kirk Brown (50:30):
Well, and the painful inventory that anybody who's working
in the context of a really largeorganization could, could make.
And, and, and we're not managementprocess consultants, so we're not
offering solutions to this, but we'rejust identifying the problem, which is
anybody who works in that big setting, ifyou really did an inventory per week of
the time you spend that serves you versusthe time you spend that doesn't serve you.

(50:52):
And I'm not talking about the downtimewhere you feel like you're wasting time.
I'm talking about, you know,the time where I'm like,
this just doesn't serve me.
It's such an enormous load on all of us.
And, and that's one of the things I'vewitnessed, you know, running a nimble
virtual enterprise for over a decade.
I never look, ever look at acalendar of meetings for a week

(51:13):
and our calendars are packed.
There is never a meeting on it whereI'm like, what am I doing there?
What's the purpose of that?
What is the agenda?
What's the outcome we're gonna get to?
So, so there's this efficiency that showsup, but you don't even call it efficiency.
You're just doing the work.
You're enjoying it, you know?
So, so, so that is one thing thathappens when you kind of, um, step out.
Now, Reagan mentioned it.

(51:33):
I think we should spend a coupleof in, in, in, in the effort to
be balanced and fair and, and to

Eric Brown (51:39):
Oh, good.

Kirk Brown (51:39):
Recognize the whole thing.
It's

Eric Brown (51:40):
about time

Kirk Brown (51:41):
you also represented accurately.
I think that, um, that, uh, whenyou go on your own, one question
you need to ask yourself is,how thick is my stomach lining?
Yeah.
Because let's face it,it can be stressful.
And I, and I would say among themany stressors for people leaving
philanthropy, this is the huge change.

(52:02):
And I thought that Reagan had some reallyartful ways to talk about this change.
But instead of the money giver.
With the line out the door and aroundthe block and over the horizon of all
the people saying, here's my best idea.
Will you find it?
Here's my best idea.
Will you find it?
Yep.
Now you're actually in that linesaying, actually, here's an idea.
Have you thought about this before?
And that's a radically differentplace to be in the world.

Eric Brown (52:24):
When you leave the foundation, you figure out who your
friends are are, that's for sure.
And you, and you learn well, but theweird thing I, I was gonna say, you
learn you're not as smart as, as youused to think you were, but that's Or

Kirk Brown (52:37):
funny or, or as good looking.

Eric Brown (52:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, but, but that's actually sort of, kindof not true when you're a consultant, you
are brought in to be the smart person.

Kirk Brown (52:46):
Yeah.

Eric Brown (52:46):
And sometimes you're brought in to solve the problem.
And, and you'll go into this meeting.
You'll go into a meeting and someone willbring up a question then, and they'll
say, well, what is our communicationsfancy consultant have to say?
And and mm-hmm.
10 heads swivel in your direction.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Your job is to say somethinguseful and meaningful.

(53:06):
And the fact is.
It doesn't have to be the best idea, itjust has to be a firmly convicted idea.
'cause people wanna beled like, okay, great.
Take us someplace.
And, and so therefore, I think the courageof one's convictions really help courage.
A uh, courage.
That's you, you have an idea and you justhave to kind of put yourself behind it.

(53:28):
And because people will, oh, andthe other thing is I used to hire
consultants to tell my colleaguesthe thing I'd been telling them for a
long time, because I'm just schmo onstaff and this is the expert from the
world, you know, the real world who'scoming in to give us their expertise.
And so therefore, sometimes itis a partnership with your comms

(53:49):
director, client, or whomever.
It's like, okay, let's figure out howwe can communicate with our own staff
here at this foundation or at thisnonprofit, because the in-house folks
are, you know, familiarity breeds.
I don't know, on, wemaybe, if not contempt.
So that's where the consultantplays another important
role as somebody who can.

(54:11):
Reinforce ideas that the comms directorhad already been trying to float, but
couldn't get them through it becausethey're on staff, that kind of thing.
Or to come up with just new ideasthat you can, you can just help
people unlock something thathad been locked for a long time.

Kirk Brown (54:26):
Yeah.
And it's funny, one of the things Isay around our shop all the time, it's
like nobody calls us when it's easy.

Eric Brown (54:30):
Yeah, that's true.

Kirk Brown (54:31):
If it's one plus one equals two, we're probably, the
phone is probably not gonna ring.
Right?
Like, like, like we're, we're needingto think about some of the things.
But to that point, you need to be ableto be salient, persuasive, evidence-based
where, where that's possible.
You need to actually kind of have somegrounding in what you're trying to do.
And I, and again, this is, this is thekind of natural skill set that someone
with the depth and breadth of experiencethat Regan brings, like that's what
Regan walks through the door with.

(54:52):
Yep.
And that, that's

Eric Brown (54:53):
right.

Kirk Brown (54:53):
That notion of being able to, you know, be
informative, just think about ideas.
Regan did point out, I thought you hada very interesting exchange around this.
You know, sometimes it's hardto get the full picture Yep.
When you're coming in for the outside.
And then I really liked yourcomment here, and I, I, I, this is.
Something we don't havea ton of experience with.
'cause we've been very fortunate.
But I know it's out thereif you smell something funky

Eric Brown (55:16):
Oh yeah.

Kirk Brown (55:17):
You get out.
And, and this is the other parttoo, because like the, sometimes the
consultant budget is bigger than thewillingness to actually do the real work.
And so sometimes that whole exerciseof bringing somebody in, even for well
compensated projects, can actuallybe just not great, not productive.
But again, now suddenly as the consultant,you can self-select in or out of that

(55:37):
dynamic, which is not a choice you getto make when you're inside the Borg.

Eric Brown (55:40):
No, that's true.
You're

Kirk Brown (55:41):
just going to the next meeting.
So, but I thought that was, I,like, I loved your reflection,

Eric Brown (55:45):
what you said that the, the tuna fish sandwich wrapped in
a red flag, something like that.
Yeah, no, I've had a few ofthose where I went exactly.
Oh, I, I made a bad mistake.
I gotta get outta here.
And I have, you know, gently,quietly backed outta the room.
But.
It, it's better off if you, if you don'tlet that thing happen in the first place.

(56:06):
And if you're a consultant and you'rereally looking for money and you're
looking, you know, you're trying tobuild your base and you build your client
list, very hard to say no to a bad idea.
But if you're out there,say no to the bad idea.
I promise you anothergood idea will come along.
It just will.

Kirk Brown (56:20):
So, speaking of good ideas, I've got an, an enormously good idea
that I'm stealing from Regan's interview.

Eric Brown (56:24):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.

Kirk Brown (56:26):
So, so Regan closes by making the pitch, you know, let's
have more women led and peopleof color led consultancies Yep.
That are actually ready for us, youknow, who can help us in those moments.
So here's a pitch I wannamake to global philanthropy.
Put you're ready for us consultancieson a $1,000 a month retainer

(56:48):
just to be in your phone book.
First calls you make whenyou're looking for help.
And seed those lists with women led andcommun, people of color led consultancies.
So this is a zero ask request toa consultancy where you say, look,
we just want to know that you're,you're out there ready to support us.
Here's a thousand dollarsa month to do nothing.

(57:10):
Just take our call and, and, uh, weknow you would take our call anyway.
Yeah.
'cause this is your business development.
But we're actually gonna put someskin in the game to say, you know, we
actually, we care enough about you.
And then we'll, and then we'lltell our team internally,
Hey, there's no buried entry.
You can, you can call them, maybeyou put some boundaries tonight.
You say we're buying four hours offree time per month, or something
like that, you know, for that,for that a thousand dollars.

(57:30):
But then you use that to seed theselists of consultancies that are
women led and people cuddler led.
And, and in, in, in whatevercommunities you think should be better
represented to better reflect your work.
So we're actually driving resourcesinto those consultancies even before we
put them on the hook to say, okay, wellhere's this contractor that contract.
What do you think about that idea?

Eric Brown (57:49):
I foundations are rich.
Make it two.
There

Kirk Brown (57:51):
you have it right.

Eric Brown (57:52):
Make it three.
They got plenty of money,

Kirk Brown (57:54):
right?
They do.
There you have it.
There you have it.

Eric Brown (57:56):
They only spend 5% of it, but they have plenty of money.

Kirk Brown (57:58):
There you have it, but, but just, you know, saying, Hey,
we just care about your capacityto just be available for us.
And, and obviously that's got afield building dimension too, because
the more healthy organizations wecan create, the more that can be
useful and beneficial to all sortsof other organizations and create.
The outcomes that you actually want,which is you want, let's say it's
$3,000 a month, you want your $36,000of investment to create millions

(58:23):
of dollars of beneficial change.

Eric Brown (58:25):
Sure.

Kirk Brown (58:25):
I think it will happen more, more often if these
organizations are incrementallyhealthier as a result of that.
And if Mackenzie Scott, here'sthis and get super excited,
let's add a couple more zeros.
Right?
But, but, but these Absolutely,but these firms are out there.
They're knowable, they're known, they'vegot credentials, they're doing the work
and everybody is struggling these days.

(58:46):
So why not put a little bitof support out there before we
even ask people to do the work?
And the reason I, I would put adollar value to it is because we
want these groups to be known.
We want to, we wanna create a, anintentional process to pull them forward.
So that could be potentially a projectthat spark White's communications,
heads up on behalf of a coalition offoundations to identify those firms,

(59:07):
vet them, and then create the mechanismsthrough which they can all get paid.
So Regan, that might be something you,

Eric Brown (59:11):
the Tom Sawyer of everything.
You got people to paint your fence.

Kirk Brown (59:15):
See another great idea.
This was a great conversation, ReganDouglas, we're so happy to have you
in this world, this part of the world.
Two years, you've had yourshingle out, very timely.
So glad it's been going well.
And again, if you're listening to thisand you're thinking, can I do this?
The answer is yes.

(59:36):
You can absolutely do this.
So give it a shot.
Why not?
What do you think, Eric?

Eric Brown (59:42):
Yeah.
Call Regan and ask Regan about things.
You can always call me.
I'll, I'll, I take everybody's calls.
I'm always happy to helppeople do anything at all.
So, but yeah, it's, it's,uh, it's a wonderful life.
I, I have to tell you.

Kirk Brown (59:54):
Well, that's Regan Douglas, the founding principle
at Spark Wise Communications.
And, uh, you can [e-mail].
Please reach out, talk to Regan, hireRegan, and, uh, and if you're thinking
about entering this world, please do.
Uh, we can say from firsthand experiencethat there's more help always needed,
and you have the skills to help.

(01:00:16):
So become a helper.
Eric, that was a great conversation.
Thank you for doing that.

Eric Brown (01:00:20):
Well, thank you, Kirk, and thank you always for being so cheerful.

Kirk Brown (01:00:24):
Come on, this is great.
Courage, everybody.

Regan Douglass (01:00:27):
Courage, and let's hear it.
We'll see you next time.

Kirk Brown (01:00:33):
Okay, everybody.
That's it for this episode.
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAli, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music,

Eric Brown (01:00:47):
our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation,

Kirk Brown (01:00:49):
and please check out Lumina's terrific podcast, today's
students tomorrow's talent, and youcan find [e-mail].

Eric Brown (01:00:57):
We certainly thank today's guest and of course, all of you,

Kirk Brown (01:01:00):
and most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.

Eric Brown (01:01:04):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Kirk Brown (01:01:06):
Okay, everybody, till next time.
Do you think we talk about courage enough?

Eric Brown (01:01:19):
Courage?

Kirk Brown (01:01:21):
Yeah.

Eric Brown (01:01:22):
I don't know.

Kirk Brown (01:01:24):
I think this conversation today is about courage.

Eric Brown (01:01:26):
It's about courage.
Ooh, that's fun.
Um,

Kirk Brown (01:01:28):
it's about courage.

Eric Brown (01:01:29):
Wait, wait, wait.
I got you.
Wait, stop.
We have to start over.
I didn't thought

Kirk Brown (01:01:34):
you were talking.
How dare you.
How dare you.
I, this is, this is, I,this is my great open.
I now, we're not gonna be hot.
It'll

Eric Brown (01:01:41):
be, it'll be very hot.
Hold on a second.
Uh, okay, good.
Sorry, I just needed to,

Kirk Brown (01:01:47):
okay.
I thought you were

Eric Brown (01:01:47):
rolling.
I'm rolling, but I made a mistake.

Kirk Brown (01:01:51):
Okay.
Okay.
I'm gonna roll.
I dead.
Okay.
You ready?