So You Wanna Start a Podcast? With Emily Shaw and Bridget Conley

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Let's Hear It.
Let's Hear It is a podcast forand about the field of foundation
and nonprofit communications,produced by its two co-hosts, Eric
Brown and Kirk Brown, no relation.
Well said, Eric.
And I'm Kirk.
And I'm Eric.
Let's Hear It is sponsored by thePrebys Foundation, a foundation
creating an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.

(00:22):
Check out their amazingly goodpodcast, Stop and Talk, hosted by
Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
You can find them atstopandtalkpodcast.com.
You can find Let's Hear It on anypodcast subscription platform.
You can find us onlineat letzhearitcast.com.
And if you like the show, please,please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts
so that more people can find us.

(00:43):
Let's get onto the show.
Okay, so as you know, I love you very much
No, you don't.
If you loved me, youwouldn't make me do a podcast
I was gonna say, what I lovebest about you- Don't love
me.
Hate me … is how muchyou hate this podcast.
I hate- It just comes dripping off ofyou when you start this introduction.

(01:03):
It's just unbelievable
This podcast is a labor of hate.
I've said it.
I've been saying it for seven years, andit's never, I've never hated it more.
Yeah, and then this conversationjust speaks to why this is so great.
This is, you're doing such good work here.
You should be so thankful.
No, no, no, no, no.
What they're doing is great.
What… It's true.

(01:24):
It's true.
What we're doing is stupid.
It's… I, I disagree.
There's so much stuff to talk about here.
This is so good.
Let's talk about it.
Let… You do your thing.
Do your thing.
Tell us what's happening, andthen we'll come back right back.
What's my thing?
I have no thing.
I've-
You're gonna tell, you're gonnasay what's about to happen.
This is such a good conversation.
You know what I am?

(01:44):
And by the way, nice to finally talkto somebody who knows what the hell
they're doing too on this podcast.
Good
point.
I know, exactly.
What I am is a vessel for yourhopes and dreams, Tom Sawyer.
Yes, thank you.
I am nothing.
Thank you.
You're
very welcome.
Today- … I spoke with Bridget Conley-
Yes
… who's the research director at the World Peace Foundation, and Emily

(02:06):
Shaw, who is, heaven forefend-
Uh
… a podcast producer.
Yes, indeed.
And together, they createdthe podcast Disrupting Peace.
How good of a title is that, by the way?
Disrupting Peace?
Come on.
This is so good.
Go, go ahead.
It, it's
a good title, unlike-
Go ahead.
No, come on.
This is great.
Okay, go.
Another title I can think
of.
Keep going.

(02:27):
Keep going.
It's good.
This is really good.
Anyway.
Yeah.
These are people who work together.
They like to do podcasts.
And they like each other.
And
they like e- They've got
good rapport
and
they
like each other.
Exactly.
It's a g- really good interview.
Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
It's like yin yang.
Yes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I talk to them about their podcast,what it is to create it, what they

(02:48):
wanna achieve, their hopes anddreams, all that other stuff, and I,
I thought it was a really interestingconversation, and I think it's really
nice to present to the world peoplewho enjoy doing a podcast together.
Y- finally.
For a change.
For a change.
For a change.
So go find these folks.
So Emily Shaw, you'll find Emily@emilyshawcreates, and Emily

(03:09):
has a very long and luminarypedigree of just d- having done
a lot of really cool, great work.
And then-
A luminary pedigree.
Right?
I don't know.
Is that right?
I'm impressed.
But then go find the World PeaceFoundation, Bridget Conley, and
I love the fact that the researchdirector at the World Peace Foundation
said, "Hey, let's do a podcast." Youtalk about this in the interview.

(03:30):
So this is Emily and Bridget fromDisrupting Peace on Let's Hear It.
Let's listen to this conversation,and then we will come back, and
we have a lot to talk about.
I have nothing to say to you.
Let's hear from DisruptingPeace on Let's Hear It.
This podcast exists because my friendKirk Brown had a very, very stupid idea,

(03:50):
that he and I would start a podcast aboutfoundation and nonprofit communications,
and that anyone would care.
I would do all the work, andhe would rest on his laurels.
That's how the, that'show we divided the time.
Seven years later, this is still anincredibly stupid idea, but whatever.
Here we are.
Now, my guests h- today, EmilyShaw and Bridget Connolly, started

(04:12):
the podcast Disrupting Peacebecause Bridget had a good idea.
Take on the question of why peacehasn't worked, and find ways
to address those challenges.
Bridget is the research directorat the World Peace Foundation.
Emily is the crack producer who helpedher build the show Now, organizations
are always looking for new ways to usecommunications to advance their mission,

(04:34):
and sooner or later the question comesup, "Should we start a podcast?" So
this episode is for every foundationand nonprofit and consultant and
whatever out there sitting on a podcastidea wondering if it's worth doing.
Emily and Bridget will get intoit about what it actually takes to
go from idea to launch, the costs,the formats, the decisions, the
strategies, all that kind of stuff,and what they've learned along the way.

(04:57):
Emily Shaw and Bridget Connolly, thankyou so much for coming on the show.
We are so happy to be here.
Thanks for having us.
And we're usually on the other side.
I know, it's a leg.
So this is twisting my brain.
Well, here we go.
We're gonna dive right in.
So the folks get a, a chance to know alittle bit about you, Bridget, just tell
me about the World Peace Foundation.
Okay.
So the World Peace Foundationwas created in 1910.

(05:19):
So It is an old organization.
It's been independent,it has its own money.
A very wealthy publisher ofeducational text was the man
who founded it, Edwin Ginn.
And, and it was a distributorof League of Nation materials.
It's been at different universities,and over the years, since 2011,

(05:41):
we've been located at the FletcherSchool, which is at Tufts University.
And our programming all comesfrom that original endowment, and
then we hire up when we have bigprojects and pull in other resources.
Okay.
Emily, let's learn a little bit about you.
You've been producing podcasts for almosta decade, so you're like in whatever.

(06:02):
Over a decade.
Over a decade.
Over a decade now.
Okay, I'm sorry, so OG.
Yeah, yeah.
How did you get into that work?
That seems like kind of a, I don'tknow, it's an interesting profession.
I'm probably the only person thathas this story, which is that I was
studying Vietnamese intensively, andI had studied abroad there and just
really fell in love with learningthe language, and I went back to
Vietnam to do an oral history project.

(06:22):
And really, the purpose of that wasjust to improve my language skills.
So I was like, "Oh, if I record peopleactually telling their stories, that it
would be really cool to capture theirstories. But also I'll just have a
recording of someone actually speakingreal Vietnamese, and I can listen back
to that and get better at Vietnamese."
But there was just something sopowerful about recording people's
stories, especially in audio, becausepeople really forget that the recorder

(06:46):
is there, and- It, yeah, it was…Like, I totally fell in love with
it, but I didn't have any idea whatthat could look like as a career.
So a few years passed, and I talked to afriend of mine who had a recording studio.
We had gone to school together.
And he had the idea of me makinga podcast interviewing musicians
who record at the recording studio.
And it's a very quirky studio, soit has this inflatable boat filled

(07:10):
with pillows and twinkly lights.
Oh, I have one of those.
Yeah.
No, and one of the musiciansthat I was gonna interview, the
first person, actually decidedto record her album in the boat.
It was a very intimate album.
This is Justine Lucas.
We can share the episode andthe show notes if you'd like.
But anyway, from that I had the idea.
I was like, "Oh, what if I interviewedthe musicians in the boat?" And so

(07:32):
it ended up being just this veryintimate look at the creative process.
So I would record an hourand a half conversation and
cut it down to eight minutes.
Whoa, okay.
And I would use their music assound design and just create
this audio portrait of the band.
And so that was my first personal project.
And I had various day jobs.
Like, I was the first employee ata tiny mobile app startup, and was

(07:53):
always making audio on the side.
And then ever since 2018, I've onlybeen doing audio as my full-time job.
Fun.
Yeah.
So you like doing podcasts?
Yes.
All right.
So that's, that's, that'swhere you and I differ.
But okay.
So all right.
Let's get into the kind of whatever, thenominal purpose of this, this episode

(08:15):
about why you would wanna start a podcast.
Bridget, let me turn to you first.
First of all, you're not a comms personper se, you're a research director.
Exactly.
Right?
Yep.
Okay.
So that seems kinda odd 'causeit's usually the comms people who's
like, "Well, let's do a podcast.
Let's do tactics." Butyou're a researcher.
A, did you wanna start apodcast and if so, why?
Okay.

(08:35):
Yes, I did wanna start a podcast.
I used to host one at my previous job.
I worked at the US Holocaust MemorialMuseum in DC and I hosted one called
Voices on Genocide Prevention.
But the reason that we wanted to startone at World Peace Foundation is because
in the first instance, we're very small.
So there are three permanentstaff with a mandate to , do

(08:59):
research that supports world peace.
A little bit of a misalignmentof … resources and challenges.
We haven't succeeded yet, sowe wanted a way where we could
address more issues than we do withour in-depth research projects.
Like a proper research project can taketwo to three years or even more to build

(09:20):
up new research and then to go throughthe process of writing and editing.
And so we wanted to be able toaddress a wider range of issues.
The other one was is that thepolicy landscape is changing, right?
There's a qualitative need, I think andwe thought, to shift who we're talking to.
And so for a long time, especiallyaround issues around peace and conflict

(09:43):
post-1990, you get this big shift.
There's this peace dividend at the endof the Cold War and there were real
investments in peace, all sorts ofnew policy offices opening, efforts to
create international legal tribunals,more money for research, more money
for development across the board.
So the policy model was do your research,go to the office or the key people who

(10:09):
are working on those topics, and then yougive them policy guidance and hopefully
that shifts policy one way or another.
Obviously that's very, very simplified,but that's roughly what it was like.
What we're seeing, and it's not onlyin the Trump administration, but in
previous o- as well, we're seeing abig shift in how people think about

(10:32):
the ways that we bring about peace.
And one of the challenges is thatmodel that was much more expert
to policymaker left the generalpublic behind in a lot of ways.
And so when cuts came, there's nostrong constituency to support, and
you can't go to the office, right?

(10:53):
There's not an office anymore that you goknock on the door and say like, "Hey, I've
got ideas for peace." So there's a lotof people in my industry, my field, who
are rethinking their theories of change,and one of them is to try to help the
general public better understand what'sbeen done and what still needs to be done
to advance the cause of ending conflicts,but also building sustainable peace.

(11:18):
Why peace hasn't workedand how it still could-
Which
is the show's- … which is the
one-liner
for the show.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Okay, so let's just stipulatethat this is a good tactic, right?
That this is
a- Uh-oh.
That this is a good way- Okay.
You'll give us that
leap … Jared, don't talkBridget out of doing the podcast.
Okay, let's, yeah, so we've decidedthat this is a, a, a useful way

(11:40):
to get out into the, whatever, themarketplace of ideas beyond the
fairly circumscribed walls of policy.
So you're gonna start this podcast.
W- what did you do?
How did you think about creatingit, what its format would be,
who you were going to work with?
When did you bring Emily in?
Walk us through this process of thinking.

(12:01):
Yeah, so because I'd done a podcastbefore at a bigger institution
where we had incredible techexpertise, I knew that we could not
do it at high quality on our own.
Hmm.
So I knew we would need help, and thenI did a scan of who's already out there
doing work in the foreign policy arenaand around peace, and there are a few

(12:24):
really good podcast, but there are alsoa lot that were using sort of found
audio, and so the quality was not super.
There are also a lot of brostalking about foreign policy the
same way they talk about everythingelse on these types of platforms.
So as we started thinkingabout, okay, what's the tone?
What's the approach?

(12:45):
And then I started looking for apartner who had expertise in podcast
production, and I just started Googling.
I mean, literally just started Googling-Right … looking for podcast producers.
And we l- we talked with a coupledifferent people, and some of them
had really strong expertise on policyissues, but one of the reasons that

(13:06):
we ended up working with Emily isthat she co- Is because I don't.
Is because she doesn't.
I'm gonna…
There's something to be said for theBuddhist's beginner's mind, I think.
But sure, go on.
Actually, there is.
But the other thing is , we wouldlike this podcast to speak to
people who are generally smart Readthe news, but they don't consider

(13:28):
themselves experts on these areas.
And so Emily's not just a producer,she's also an audience advocate.
Mm. Right?
Someone who can listen to the,you know, a podcast episode where
experts are going on and on, andhave, I would call it the courage,
Emily, you might say something else.
But to ask the simple questions, andoftentimes the simple questions like,

(13:52):
"Hey, why didn't that work?" Or, you know,like, "What was that supposed to change?"
Those questions are often brilliant,and they change the conversation.
So she does that.
And then the second thing is
that- But my voice isn't inthe podcast, so it's a secret.
So- It's a secret … at the end- Asecret voice … we're asking pickups.
It's- Yeah … or I'm asking Bridgetto ask the question, just to clarify.

(14:14):
Jiminy Cricket on your shoulder.
Yeah.
We spend a lot of time workingtogether before and during the
interviews, and then after.
But the other really important thingthat Emily does is she just says,
"So let's say I'm listening. Whatshould I do?" Mm. Podcast ends.
Great.
You guys are really smart.
You know your stuff.
Bravo to you.
Bra- But what does thismean for me as a listener?

(14:35):
And that's been a really importantpart of the show, and it's one that,
that I didn't bring 'cause we'lloften, when you understand complexity-
Mm
… a lot of times you're like, "It's very complicated."
That's the way to make youraudience feel really smart, right?
Yeah.
It's really complicated.
You're not gonna understand.
You're not gonna understand.
Or- Right … there's nothing youcan do because it's all so- Yeah
… complicated that anything that you do.
Right.
And it's like, okay, fine, all ofthat aside, let's do something.

(14:58):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Emily, does that sound about right to you?
Yeah.
And that's actually a, I think a need thatI hope the show is filling, is that there
is a lot of media out there and there isa lot of coverage of a lot of challenging
issues related to conflict and peace inthe world, but they leave you feeling
really depressed a lot of the time.
And so something in the show that we'retrying to do is to, you know, include

(15:21):
some of the difficult information ofcourse, but also give people really
clear steps of what they can do.
And then every episode endswith collective dreaming.
And so that's a part of the showwhere it's like painting a picture
of what it actually would look liketo bring things closer to peace.
In season one we said, "It's theyear X, we've achieved world peace.

(15:42):
How did we get there?" Since thenwe've gotten a little bit more-
modest.
Uh, but we're still trying to, Ithink it is really important to
actually imagine what it wouldlook like to make things better.
So I'm gonna go back alittle bit to you, Emily.
When organization comes to you,particularly an organization, our audience
are non-profit foundations and, and the,the w- whatever, the world around them.

(16:03):
But let's say an organization comesto you and is like, "Ooh, we wanna
start a podcast," what are thequestions that you f- you ask first?
How do you figure out how to helpthem think through whether it's a good
idea, and if so, how they should do it?
I mean, I think- One question is,why do you wanna make a podcast?
It's a simple question, butit's actually really important.
So if we're talking about nonprofits,the organization is achieving

(16:24):
their mission or working towardstheir mission through a podcast.
So usually their mission hassomething to do with educating
and informing people, and usingstorytelling to help people feel, you
know, inspired, more knowledgeableabout the issues, and take action.
What were those early stagesof creating this podcast like?
What were the questions that you askedto Bridget, and how did she answer them?

(16:47):
And Bridget, how did you work withEmily to come up with what you
landed on and just what, help meunderstand what that process was like.
So I asked them, why doyou wanna make a show?
Do you have any ideas for the show?
What is unique about theDNA of your organization?
Tell me about your competitors.
How do you wanna differentiateyourself from them?

(17:09):
What are other podcasts, likecompetitive podcasts, in the space?
What do you feel is missing?
Who are potential hosts for the show?
What is the secret sauce thatthey would bring to this?
Maybe the most important thingis who is your target audience?
Mm-hmm.
And so primary audience, describethem in as much detail as you can.
Secondary audience.
What's the rough sense ofyour budget for the show?

(17:32):
And who are your internal resources?
Internal and external resources.
Yeah.
Like who are the people on your team?
How much time do they havethat they could work on this?
What are other resources to be awareof maybe outside of your organization
that could support the show, too?
So those are some ofthe things we look at.
One thing that was great aboutBridget is that she had really
strong opinions about podcasts.
Yeah.
She clearly had listened to a lot ofpodcasts, really didn't like things

(17:57):
about a lot of podcasts in the space.
Like she felt like theywere just talking heads.
She felt like they were boring.
She felt like the audio quality was low.
And she already had a lot of greatideas, and so it's been a very,
very, very collaborative process.
It's basically like a writer'sroom- That's fun … when
we're working together.
Yeah, so that's something that'sreally fun about this project.
All right.
Right before we go to the break, Bridget,I'll give you like just a minute or two

(18:19):
to give us the 10-cent tour of thoseearly days of thinking about the podcast.
Yeah.
I remember Emily asked me forexamples of podcasts that I like,
and all of them were super long-form.
Like an hour and a halfinterviews with people.
But some of the ones I like, I thinktone was what we got right first.
Mm-hmm.
And then- Emily and Istarted brainstorming.

(18:43):
We had a long session, and then we cameup with like, "Okay, we want two voices.
We want researchers and we wantactivists," because we wanna
both say, "What have we learnedand how do we keep doing things?
How do we keep this ball moving?"And I think that and the tone were
probably the hardest things to pin down.
But once we had those, and I'llsay we've learned a lot, too.

(19:05):
Yeah.
So over the years it's changed a bit.
But I think those were the two big keys.
One other key for us is that we are small.
Yes.
Right?
I mentioned that already, but we'rea small organization, but that also
means we have a lot more freedom.
And so one of the great parts of workingwith Emily, who has a broader background
of commercial but also creative, is whenyou bring on someone, for me, if you bring

(19:31):
on any contractor and you're paying themto do work, figure out why you're bringing
them on and then lean into it, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Like, if you're bringing someone onbecause they understand a general
audience, then let them guide you on that.
You know, in the same way, like ifyou bring on a website designer and
they're a brilliant designer, tellthem what you need and then back off.
Right?
So you, you're saying you shouldlisten to your consultants?

(19:53):
Yeah, I know.
It's crazy.
Oh my God.
While I recover from that, we'regonna take a very quick break.
We'll be back with Bridget Conleyand Emily Shaw right after this.
You're listening to Let's HearIt, a podcast about foundation and
nonprofit communications hosted by Erik
Brown and Kirk Brown.
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Break FakeRules with Glenn Galich, CEO of the

(20:16):
Stupski Foundation, as he chats withinspiring leaders in philanthropy,
government, media, and more aboutbreaking the fake rules that don't work
so that we can build a future that does.
Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now, back to the show.
And we are back with BridgetConley and Emily Shaw.

(20:37):
So you wanna start a podcast, huh?
Well, these folks actually didit, and they have a fabulous
podcast called Disrupting Peace.
Let's get deeper into this.
For you, Bridget, was there a momentwhen you realized that this thing
was working and that you were- Hmm
you were getting back atleast what you put into it?
The model that we came up with, thefirst, very first episode that we did,

(20:59):
I was like, "Ah, this might work."
And that one, we had a researcher, a guynamed Sam Moyn, who's done fantastic work.
You know, he's done work onwhat's happened since the 1990s
and political change, and thenwe had an activist- Well, didn't
he work for an administration,like a presidential administration?
He
might have worked withClinton at one point.
And
he was, like, the bombing,bombing for peace.

(21:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, 'cause hewas talking about Kosovo.
And then he's like, "And then I stoppeddrinking the Kool-Aid." And then we
had on a woman who was very young,South African, in 1994, when it stopped
being an apartheid state, so that wasthe year Nelson Mandela was elected.
And then over her lifetime, so the sameperiod in which Sam and I, who now have

(21:42):
a lot of gray, you know, are working,doing research in the field, that's the
span of her life, and she talked aboutwhat it was like to become an activist in
this new post-apartheid Africa, and whatare the justice issues and the economic
issues and the rights issues that remain.
And so it was just super excitingto have those two long perspectives-
Hmm … from different generations,and I think that's really important.

(22:05):
I, I always try, we've tried,across all the episodes, to
get in older, more establishedpeople and also younger voices.
Episode one, I thought, capturedthe model, but what we've
done since has shifted it.
Like, we're not very far from it-Mm-hmm … but we have shifted, and
I am super excited about the seasonthat we're in production for now, and

(22:27):
I think this one is gonna really gel.
Like, it's a much moreserious one, but I think we-
Mm-hmm … still keep that uplift.
But we're working with long-termpartners of our organization, and I
just think it's really, really exciting.
It sounds to me like youactually learn stuff as you go.
And I, and I don't mean to be flip,but then like the act of talking to

(22:48):
people, you hear of new ideas andnew voices and things like that.
So this is not just your platformto tell the world about the World
Peace Foundation, uh, that it's likethis one to many tool, that it is
a way for you to bring other voicesin and to learn from them as you go.
Is that fair to say?
Yes, you could say that.
It's absolutely clear.
So it is not primarily acommunications broadcast model.

(23:12):
It's actually asubstantive project, right?
Got it.
So it's been super fun for me.
It's not icing on the cake.
Right.
There's real substance here,and I'm learning along the way.
Emily, can you walk us through thenuts and bolts of launching a podcast?
… Give us some ranges about what it mightcost for different sized organizations,
the kinds of resources that folks mightneed, the questions that they need

(23:37):
to ask that are not just strategic,but are, I don't know, instrumental.
So I would say that to start a showand have it be high quality and have
an organization get value out of it,I recommend having a budget between,
like, 50 to 100K for the first season.
And so that would includecreative development, coming
up with a concept for the show.

(23:58):
That could include marketing.
You do need to invest somethingin marketing to promote the show
and get it in front of people.
So that's kind of like aballpark that I give people.
If your budget is 15K, likeit might not be worth it.
You know what I mean?
Uh-huh.
You might want to invest more inguesting on shows, which I think is
actually a really great avenue forfolks that want to get their message
out there or want to get out there.

(24:19):
That's totally free.
And then in terms of the nuts andbolts and process, I think that
creative development stage isreally, really, really important.
Mm-hmm.
That's where you get the North Star.
You could say the North Starof our show is why peace hasn't
worked and how it still could.
Yeah.
So any time we're feeling confused aboutwhat to focus on, we come back to that.
And then every episode has a North Star.

(24:40):
And so I think just having thatfocus, why are we doing this, it's
really, really important to know whataudience you're trying to reach, right?
Mm-hmm.
'Cause there's so many different types ofpeople with different levels of expertise.
So if you're trying to reach amore general audience, you're
gonna want to explain things.
If you know that everyone who'slistening is gonna be an expert, then
you don't need to explain, right?

(25:01):
One thing to look out for is whenexperts are talking to other experts,
they tend to get really experty.
Right.
And they tend to use a lot of jargon.
And so that's why it can be really helpfulto have a producer or some … Like, if
you're trying to reach a more generalaudience, like maybe the host is not
an expert in a particular thing, sothey're asking the guest, or maybe
they're co-hosts and one of them isan expert and one of them is not.
You know, ways to just naturallyhave people explain things.

(25:24):
Also, having a producerthat's not as knowledgeable.
People just change the way they talkdepending on who they're talking to.
So that's something to keep in mind.
So you do creative development.
You get that really clear one-linerfor the show, title For the show,
and then come up with that ideaof the arc of the first season.
Who are the potential guests thatyou might wanna be talking to?

(25:46):
What do you want eachepisode to contribute?
And then you start researching the guestsand creating questions for the interviews,
do the interview, then post-production.
Like, for this show, we have an hourand a half time for each interview,
…Ideally, we usually try to get the tech set up before that.
So that's, like, recording from the start.
Bridget, we aim for her to ask questionsfor an hour, and then that last half

(26:10):
hour is for me to ask Bridget toask follow-up questions or for me to
ask follow-up questions, but also totransfer the files and things like that.
And so usually we're cutting downmaybe, like, an hour and 15 minutes down
to, like, a 25 to 35-minute episode.
Longest episode ever Ithink was 48 minutes.
So there's a lot of editing alsothat goes into it, and I think that's

(26:31):
actually really important if you wantthe most compelling show possible.
As you know, Eric-
Yes
you really need to edit.
You really need to spend timeediting, especially if it's experts.
You know, if, if it's a com-comedy show with people who are
comedians and they can just talkand talk, like, that's one thing.
W-
we can
talk and talk.
If the subject matter could be… I know.
If the subject matter's a littlebit more dense or difficult to

(26:54):
understand, you definitely wannabe able to have a lot of editing.
Well, one of the things that Ididn't appreciate, even though Emily
tried to convey it before seasonone- … was how important it is to
have, even if it's a small budget,to have a budget for marketing.
Uh-huh.
And Eric, you probably know this,but we thought we could just use
our existing social media platforms.

(27:17):
And, you know, we got a couplehundred listens that way.
Mm-hmm.
But then once we started spending,I think we spend two, 2 to 3,000, so
it's not anywhere near a big budget.
The, by the way, the marketing personthat we spoke to recommended at
least 20K- … to launch a seasonfor mark- just as a reference.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Yeah.
So, but even just thatamount, we went from a couple

(27:40):
hundred to a couple thousand.
And where do you market?
What platforms?
We have done a range of things.
We did some of the various podcastingplatforms that allow for marketing, so
Castbox and- PlayerFM We worked with agroup that does targeted media on related
news articles, and then they'll play.

(28:01):
And that was, we got really goodnumbers, but we didn't get as many
people subscribing through that.
Right.
So then it's kind of like the upsand downs- Right … of those pieces.
We keep trying to submit Spotifyand Apple Spotlights, and
we will continue to do that.
But those were some of the big ones, yeah.
Was there a moment on the show… Now,you ta- already talked about the, a great
interview that you had that, that was kindof a revelation, but was there a moment

(28:25):
when you realized that, th- something cameback that I didn't expect, that either a,
a listener got back in touch with you, butlike there's a moment that's like, "Oh,
boy, oh, boy, I didn't see that coming."
Yeah.
The one is, the, the most listened toepisodes are not the ones necessarily that
I would have put or I would have bet on.
Mm-hmm.
So we had one season on taking the firststeps towards peace, and so we looked at

(28:47):
everything from like children in conflictzones to Gen Z comes of age and politics.
But one that we saved, this is still ourmost listened to episode, is called Why
Listening is the First Step to Peace.
Mm. And so we had a scholar who workson what he calls generous listening, and

(29:08):
then we had an activist, a woman, both ofthem are f- colleagues at Tufts, who hosts
small group sessions around improvingpeople's capacity to listen to each other.
Floored me.
There was another one-Hmm … on, we had two guys who
are both activists and scholars.
They're from Syria, and then theyleft and went to Holland to pursue

(29:28):
graduate work during the war, and wehad them on for an episode on how do
you rebuild after a dictator is toppled.
Hmm.
Asking for a friend.
Super.
So those were ones that…And I, you know, you never
really know, is it the topic?
Is it their networkswere really activated?

(29:50):
Is it going to, you know, it cr-something happens in the news the
week that you release an episode.
So it's hard to know.
One of the things that I think isweird about podcasts as well is
how bad the, the algorithms are.
Like, it's so- Hmm … hard to findgood podcast on a topic you care about.
Yeah.
And so I don't, that's just weird, sojust note to you guys in your profession.

(30:14):
Yeah, we're
working on it.
Improve the algorithms.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's why videopodcasts have really taken off is
because the algorithm on YouTubedoes make discovery a lot easier.
Yeah.
Emily, what's the biggest mistakethat you see organizations make?
I would say number one is thinkingabout what they wanna say and not
what their audience wants to know.
Hmm.
Podcasts are something thatsomeone is choosing to listen to.

(30:37):
People have a lot of options.
And especially with an audio-onlypodcast, there's nowhere to hide.
You don't have any interesting visualsthat someone can keep watching because
it's kind of interesting to look at.
People will just turn it off.
If they're not interested,they're just gonna turn it off.
Right.
And someone with a communicationsperspective, it might be, "Oh,
these are all the things wewanna say about our organization.

(30:57):
These are all the things we wannasay about, you know, what we care
about," and da da da da da. But youneed to think, "Who do you wanna
reach, and what are they not hearing?
What are they looking for, and how canyou be solving a problem for them?"
So I think that's most important.
And then I also think thatanother mistake is thinking of
it as kind of an afterthought.
Like, "Oh, we have all these Zoomrecordings that we do- "… of, you know,

(31:18):
we have- … oh, we did all these panelslast year. Like, let's just turn that into
a podcast." And that could be valuableif people just wanna listen to those.
Like, some people, it can be nice justto have a recording of something, but
you know, if it's not gonna be that greatquality audio, if there's no editing
to make it more interesting- Mm-hmm
like, you just can't assume that thatmany people are gonna wa- Like, maybe

(31:39):
the super fans will listen who arealready following you, but if you
wanna reach new people, you just can'tassume that they're gonna listen.
So yeah, I think having realistic-, resources to be able to do the kind of
editing and prep is really important.
I think also expectingreally quick impact from it.
I would say a podcastis more of a slow burn.
It's like a relationship.

(32:01):
, People are spending time.
If you compare it to social media,someone maybe looks, sees a post
or an article, they look at itfor half a second, scroll on.
Compare that to someone spending 25,35, 45 or more minutes of their time
listening to your voice in their ears.
People do have parasocialrelationships, as we all know.

(32:22):
We all- I'm sure we all have them withthe podcast hosts that we listen to
and with the people that are speaking.
So people just feel a very strongemotional connection, but that takes
ti- that can take time to build thatrelationship, and I think one of the
things we've experienced is every seasonof the show, it does slowly build.
We have more connections.
Oh, now we have more peoplewho can interview Bridget, who

(32:43):
we can do episode swaps with.
Now we have more potentialguests that can share the show.
I don't know, it just, it feels likeit builds slowly over time, and so to
expect, "Oh, how did episode one do?
Oh, did we get a millionlistens on episode one?
No?
Okay, we're gonna shut it down." I thinkyou need to expect that it could take
some time to get the kind of resultsthat you want, but then it does slowly

(33:05):
build over time, and it's a reallyhigh-quality way to connect with people.
Well, thanks for putting that notionof parasocial relationships in my mind.
Now I'm gonna spend a littletime thinking about that.
In the minute or so we have left,Bridget, what would you say to the
nonprofit organization person who'sthinking about this as a strategy?
I would say think about thestories you wanna tell first.

(33:27):
Does your work have compelling stories?
And yes, nonprofits always do.
And how do you get thosestories across to an audience?
'Cause so much of our work, you'vegotta get the facts down, you've got
data, you've got numbers, you've gotpolicy racks, you've got s- you know,
all of that stuff, all these metrics.
And we've had people on the show asguests, and also for ourselves, it's

(33:50):
something I have to learn and relearnall the time, who wanna talk about the
high-end ideas or what they've achieved.
You know, the more rote itis, the less compelling.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
And so it's like, how do we keeppracticing telling the stories about
the meaning behind the work that we do?
Yeah, no, no child ever climbedup into their parents' lap at the

(34:11):
end of the day and said, "Mommy,Daddy, tell me some statistics."
Check my nutritional intake today.
You know?
It doesn't happen.
Well, well, the stories you're telling arereally important and really wonderful, and
Disrupting Peace is a terrific podcast.
Thank
you.
And I congratulate you for your work.
And Emily and Bridget, you clearlyhave a partnership that works.

(34:32):
It, so it sounds like finding yourpartner in this work is really important.
I just thank you very much for sharingwhat you've learned with folks, and
we will put links in the show notes tothe podcast and to your work, Emily.
Just thank you both for coming on.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, thank you.

(34:52):
And we're back.
I'm ready to accept the apology.
You just did an entire podcastabout helping organizations start a
podcast because it's a great idea.
It- so okay, so, so lot ofdirections, lot of directions.
But-
Oh, oh, the only apology I willmake are, is, or I have two.

(35:13):
One, to the listeners out there- … andB, to anybody else who's ever met me-
… because this is, this is a stupid idea.
Well, so this, so The Atlantic justwrote an article a little ways back
talking about how our attention spanis collapsing, that our capacity
to read and synthesize- Wait, I'm

(35:34):
sorry, what?
Exactly.
And so- I wasn't paying att- As youwent through this interview and you were
talking, and we'll, we'll go through allthe dimensions, and again, it's so cool
to hear Emily and Bridget talking aboutthis work and how well they do it together
and their process for getting there.
But as you were asking them to talk aboutthe rationale for a nonprofit, what to
think about doing, what are the questionsthat go into creating a podcast, I was
seriously sitting here there thinking,in an era where the written word is just

(35:59):
becoming, it's less than a commodity.
AI is turning the world-
Doesn't exist
… and our-
The written word is dead.
Yeah, and our attention spans aregoing with it, and whatever that
activity is, whatever that space you'retrying to fill, the proliferation
of all of these audio and visualchannels blasting at us reflects the

(36:21):
fact that we have all this time onour hands that we're trying to- Hmm
fill with high-quality,life-affirming, and that could
be a million different things.
It could be funny-Mm … it could be wasteful.
But it can also be about what?
How do you deconstruct and disrupt peace?
How do you create more awarenessof what peace looks like?
I think every organization shouldseriously be thinking about the

(36:42):
audiovisual aspects of their workbecause we live in a world where
social media is collapsing, thewritten word is collapsing, our
attention spans are collapsing.
But, and I love that you were thrownoff by this phrase, but we're all
looking for parasocial relationshipsin a world that gets increasingly
lonely and increasingly isolated.
So I think you're ontosomething here, Mr. Brown.

(37:04):
I think you should have more peoplewho've done podcasts on the show.
What do you think about that?
Don't manipulate me, Kurt.
It's so good.
Nice n- nice try.
I think there are lots of waysto communicate, and there are
lots of modes of communication.
I learn a lot by, I don't know what,what you wanna call it, parallel playing.
I go for a walk and then Ilisten to somebody's podcast.

(37:26):
Yeah.
The strange thing is, actually- Yeah
and I'm sure there'ssome science about this-
Uh-huh
… that spatial learning is an actual thing.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So where you are in space- Yeah,sure … can correlate to something
that you heard or listened to.
Sure.
And so I think that people canactually take in information better
while they're walking their dogor going for a run or- Absolutely

(37:48):
something like that andlistening on that other channel.
So th- it's a tool.
It's a thing.
It actually can be a valuable tool.
And obviously if people arelistening to us, they're podcast
listeners and they're crazy.
Right.
So they know
We're so sorry.

(38:08):
Yeah, I know.
I'm really… Actually, you know what?
We're probably just getting, you know,Bridget and Emily's listeners- Right.
That's right
… a
little like, "Oh, this is curious."
That's right.
Let's hear what, let's hear Emilyand Bridget, what they have to say.
That's right.
But, uh, but it is a way to provideinformation and it is a way to learn in a
different way than just sitting there andlooking at a computer screen, for example.

(38:28):
Or God forbid, you shouldactually sit in a chair and read
a piece of printed material.
That's another way to learn, but it's-
Nobody's doing it anymore.
And then what do you do?
You talk about what do you need to bakeinto your sensibilities for how you're
even gonna start a podcast, you know,and Emily is talking about the different
sensibilities people need to bring that.
But one's- what's oneof the threshold ones?

(38:49):
You gotta think about thestories you're trying to tell.
We keep coming back to thisquestion of stories, and not
the stories you wanna tell.
What's your audiencegonna try to listen to?
What's gonna- Right … whatare they gonna respond to?
And just think about theorganizational practice.
What if you created a podcast withinyour organization just for your team?
Because this notion that, you know,if you're trying to do communications,
you've gotta have this audienceof bazillions or else it doesn't

(39:09):
matter, that's actually not true.
What's on offer here is the thoughtprocess, the thinking that goes
into surfacing, identifying and,and putting forward the stories
that are gonna resonate with theaudiences where they actually are at.
So here we are, this bedrocksensibility about communications.
Where's your audience?
Where are they at?
What can you say that helps move them?
This filter, this lens, this tool,this podcast tool helps you get there

(39:31):
in a way that probably is differentthan any other tactic you could think
about, really, when you think about it.
You know, your long form report, yourstudy, your press release, even your
social media feeds, all these differenttools and tactics we think about that
populate the communication space,they're all kind of dying, right?
In a weird way.
I mean, am I taking this too far?
I know I am, but, but I think there'ssomething really salient here, and

(39:52):
then we have to talk about DisruptingPeace and the World Peace Foundation,
but what do you think about this?
I, I just have a question for you, Kirk.
Yeah.
I'm not on anything, I swear to God.
I'm not on
anything.
No, no, no.
Do you have your angina medication- Yeah.
Right … handy?
Do you have, do you have-Okay … the nitroglycerin?
So let's go here.
Let's go
here.
You're gonna grab your chest rightnow- Here we go … fall off the
chair, and then I'm gonna have to fill.
Yeah.
Here you go.
Here you go.
So this is a very impolitething I'm about to say.

(40:14):
Oh,
heck yes.
'Cause we've had, we've had alot… Think, think about the range
of incredible organizations andpeople we've had on this podcast.
Yes.
Is it possible that this is themost audacious organization we've
ever heard from on Let's Hear It?
Is the World Peace Foundation?
Let's deploy three people to thinkabout how to secure the research that

(40:35):
helps create pathways for peace, andthen the research director for an
organization that has a mission thatis that extraordinary says, "You know,
actually, let's try something new.
Let's try something innovative.
Let's try to actually tell stories."And then they get the learning
that's like, you know, actually,when we put stories like listening
is a key aspect for creating peace,and that gets a lot of attention,

(40:55):
they start creating real learning.
So again, for an organization likethe World Peace Foundation to be
willing to play with this and totry something out, that just, that
innovation, that's what the, that'sat the center of all of our work.
We have to try- Try risks.
We have to try these new ideas.
So anyway, I just think it'sso cool that this organization
is trying this stuff out.
I'm very sorry to say,Kirk, that I agree with you.

(41:18):
No, you're right.
This is… It is audacious.
It's kind of gloriousif you think about it.
Mm. That you have this, youhave a small organization that's
100 years old, though- Right
at the same time.
Right.
And you sit there and you think, "Okay,what are some of the ways that I can
communicate, not only communicatewith folks, but learn as I go?"

(41:38):
Yeah.
And this, I think, isa really helpful tool.
Now, the I have to say that when theydropped the bomb of the budget- Mm,
mm … I almost fell off my chair.
But no, no, no, it's true.
If you're gonna do something, do it right.
Right.
But if you're gonna get someschmo who's gonna do all the work
by himself while his friend sitson his tuffet, that's fine too.

(42:00):
That actually can work.
But I do think that thereare many ways to do it.
Yeah.
And I would encourage people notto be cowed by a large budget.
Try something.
Yeah.
And put it out, do alittle limited series.
You could do it any way you like, andjust get it out there and see what
comes back, because you do learn asyou go, and people will respond to
you in ways that you didn't expect.

(42:22):
Yeah.
And we have folks who listenregularly, who listen to shows that
are not in their area of expertise,and they say, "I learned something."
Yeah.
"And it expanded how I think about the world," or, "It might have changed the
way I think about my work even thoughI don't do education," or, "I don't do
climate," or, "I don't do this," or, "Idon't do that." So I do think that there
are many ways to connect with peoplewhom you didn't expect you would connect

(42:45):
with that will add value to what it isyou do, and may kind of refract on the
world in ways that you could not expect.
This is a, a relatively cheaptool to learn and to share.
100%. It's… And, and let's yes andthis in the sense that, yes, this can be
a do-it-yourself thing, but even there,you know, when the conversation about

(43:07):
resources comes to bear, let's face it,if you're talking about people that are
trying to work within a 40-hour workweek,and we all know people in our field kind
of fudge that, then it's being 50 or 60hours anyway 'cause you're so committed
and you can't get away from your desk.
Even that part of, well, if you're gonnado something like create a podcast,
just like if you're gonna create areport or just like if you're gonna
create a project, you've gotta havepeople, you've gotta give people time

(43:29):
to do the work right and do it well.
So I totally agree, like secondthat notion of just try it.
Just try it out.
Like- Yeah … literally, I'mlike every organization, just
give this a shot, you know?
Y- y- 'cause again, that sensibility aboutwhat we're communicating and the stories
we're trying to tell is so important.
The and I would add to that, and it'sfunny, this is maybe where our lives are
a little bit divergent, but I remembera million years ago telling people who

(43:53):
wanted to get their stuff plastered allover the world, they wanted to make global
A1 above the fold with their cutting-edgestudy or their cutting-edge- Uh-huh
research, and it's like, "Well, yeah,we can do that, but it's probably gonna
be $50,000 to $100,000 to actuallystructure the campaign that you really
wanna do a- along those lines and do thatwell." How many times the phone hung up
immediately- … because it's so shocking.
'Cause people are like, "Wait a minute.It's just a piece of paper, right?"

(44:15):
And then you fax it to a couple ofpeople, and it's like, no, actually
there's a lot more work that goes into it.
So I would say the and part of that isif you have the capacity to assign a real
budget, just like any other communicationsproject, and you have the ability to find
someone like Emily Shaw, who is availableat Emily Shaw Creates, for sure Use that
resource because you're gonna get so muchlearning, and I do believe that it's gonna

(44:38):
amplify your impact many times over ifyou can actually allocate those resources.
I think that's totally true.
Oh, I, I, I totally agree.
If you can identify a number of storiesthat you would love to tell and to bring
in other voices that can help you tellit or that can help you learn, it's a
great way to experience your own work-

(44:58):
Yeah
… through another context, another set of eyes or ears or voices,
and that's why it's interesting.
For us, however, noneof those things apply.
Yeah, right.
None of those things apply.
It's true.
Actually, what we do is- It's true… we get to highlight other people-
Yeah
… who are actually- This, this is true … doing interesting things.
This is true,
100%. You do interesting things.

(45:19):
I do not, but-
You
And I learn, and I feel likeit is an opportunity to share
what other people are doing.
So that, that part is good.
So it wasn't a, a totallyterrible idea you had, Kirk.
Well- But it's kind of a terrible idea
… it's a terrible idea.
But here's the other thing that it getsme excited about hearing Bridgit and Emily
talk about this, and, and this has alwaysbeen the thing in the communications field
that's got me most interested and mostexcited, is that let's face it, there

(45:40):
are different ways, kinds of c- there'sa whole continuum of communications out
there that we refer to as communications.
And I would say there's a lotof it that's very necessary and
important, but it's a lot more likemarketing laundry detergent in a way.
Say more.
Very vanilla.
It's just, it's not gonnatake a lot of risks, right?
And it shouldn't take risks becausethere's just basic blocking and tackling

(46:01):
we need to do at times to just get thebasic facts and information out there.
But then there's an , entirely differentpart of our same continuum of work,
our same field, that actually issitting on the cutting edge of risk,
trying things out for the first time,trying to see if this could work.
, This could fail and fail badly.
You know, this could be a, a big waste.
Or we can, we could get a lot of learning.
And it strikes me that somethinglike a podcast is really unique

(46:24):
today in particular as beingmore the latter than the former.
, That actually putting your institutionalresources behind something that's got
even a private face, even amongst yourteam, but hearing each other talk about
the work in a storytelling way, hearingeach other try to animate what's important
about this in a way that's differentthan just the staff meeting report out or

(46:46):
what have you, that actually it's risky.
And it's important for us as a fieldto take risks because that's where
our learning is gonna come from.
And so it's interesting hearing Bridgitand Emily even talking about this.
Like, they've corrected real learningwith each other as they've done this work.
And it strikes me, you need a Bridgitand you need an Emily to make this work.
You know, you need the technical- Yeah… person with the producing chops, and you

(47:08):
need that content person who's willing totake those risks and drive things forward.
And I, so I think that was another coolthing about this interview, Eric, is that
you brought those kinds of spokespeopletogether to talk about what they're doing
because they have such, they have theingredients of what's a really powerful
combination to put something forwardthat's got a lot of value to it and
creates a lot of benefit for people.
Obviously, Emily is acting… Oh, Ithink we talked about this a little bit,

(47:29):
is she's, like, the audience advocate.
Yeah.
So you kind of need somebody outthere who can ask the kinds of
questions that the audience will beasking to be their- Yeah … proxy.
And- That's a very importantpart of the partnership.
We, as we discussed, it's not justabout what do I wanna say- Yeah
but who is it I'm trying to communicateand what do they care about so that

(47:50):
I can create, that I can talk to themin ways that are meaningful to them?
And that gets to this point aboutaudience, which is you don't need
Joe Rogan's audience- No … tobe effective with a podcast.
You just need to understand who itis who cares about the work that
you're doing or the people thatyou are highlighti- highlighting.
So it's not always- Yeah … aboutyou, it's about your constituents, your

(48:13):
grantees if you're a foundation, the,your partners if you're a nonprofit,
and highlighting those stories inways that some audience out there
is gonna learn from, is gonna dosomething about, is gonna engage on.
And that audience doesn'tneed to be a million people.
It can be- Right … the right thousandpeople, and you have used, you will have
used your time phenomenally effectively.

(48:36):
Absolutely.
Wonderful.
So that's another thing.
So w- I kinda wanna disabuse people ofthis notion that they have to be huge.
What they have to do is understandwho it is they care about and find
a way to be a part of a conversationthat is meaningful to that audience.
We used to say this about a certain socialmedia platform that I'm not even gonna use
its name or its new name to, to reference,but we used to say, you know, it's not

(48:57):
about broadcasting, even though it hasthat capacity, but it's microcasting.
If you could invite the right 100 peopleto a dinner and they would all show
up, you would love to have that dinner.
Well, guess what?
You just got a free way to do it,and I think that a podcast can
be, it can be a very similar, itcan be a very similar mechanism.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the things I love, too, thoughthe, I have to say, Bridge and Emily, they
cut me to the quick with this comment.

(49:19):
Uh-oh.
So they're putting forward differentstories, but also different messengers,
and they said, "You know, we got started.
There are a lot of bros out there-"
Eh.
"… talking about it." I'm like, "Oh, okay, here we are.
We're just a couple of bros. We'rejust a couple of bros out there." Ugh.
Right?
Mansplaining.
I, I disgust myself.
I know.
We're just terrible.
I'm
s- But- I'm disgusted
… what c- what can you do?
What, you can create- Ah … your ownplatform for elevating these voices.

(49:42):
So it's not just the stories- True … butit's who's telling the stories, right?
Yeah.
And again, we can just do the work, andwe have to put the effort in to do the
kind of quality work that we need to do,and if you can microcast that, and if you
can get the right dinner party of 20, 30,40, 100, or 1,000 people together, you've
just done something that's probably oneof the most impactful things you could do.

(50:02):
To, you know, echoing what you just said.
So I think that's really great.
So I do wanna share here publiclythat I am gonna start cheating on you.
Because I'm gonna emailEmily Shaw immediately.
As you were doing this podcast, I had,like, three great ideas that came to
mind.
C- y- And- No, no, no, no.
Y- j- don't burden some other person.

(50:22):
She, she has a l- Shehas to make a living.
If you're gonna pay Emily, great.
If y- d- d- d- don't burden herwith your dumb ideas that, that she
has to spend time on uncompensated.
If, if Emily- If that's whereyou're going, I'm not- Emily
does- I, I, I forbid it.
Emily does have a link at Emily ShawCreates where you can send ideas in, and
Emily, again, has done such great work.

(50:44):
And then,
oh
my-
No, don't, don't send ideas to her.
Hire her.
Well, that's what got me-
You see, you, you don'tunderstand how this works, Kirk.
You call somebody, you hire them,you give them money, and they
get compensated, they build theircareer, you get your ideas out.
That's how it work.
You don't just call peopleand tell them to do stuff.
Except that's what you did to me.
Uh, couldn't we agree that the World PeaceFoundation should double in its capacity?

(51:08):
Couldn't we agree that we needdesperately these days more
dollars going to the World Peace
Foundation?
We need way more of the World PeaceFoundation and way less of us.
Oh my goodness.
I do wanna have Bridget back someday,and I actually want Bridget to carefully
define for me what peace means andhow far we ever are away from it.
'Cause I was thinking to myself, like,what really do we mean by peace, and

(51:30):
how distant from my little house oryour little house, how far do you travel
before the conditions of peace collapse?
And I think that thatcould be very immediate.
That could be very near to us,like if we think about what it
looks like to have peace with
us.
All right, Kirk.
Right.
I, I need to ask you a favor.
Yeah, go ahead.
D- no more doing ayahuascabefore we do the pod drop.
Come on.

(51:50):
This… Oh, come on.
Are, are you, are you gonnadisagree that this was one of
the best and most interesting…
You've had a lot of great conversations.
This is, this is rightu- this is so important.
This is such good stuff, right?
No, I, I, I,
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
I, I'm, I apologize.
That's okay.
You're citi- you're New York citizen-ed.
It gets the best of you from time to time.
Your, your Iowa whatever itis gets the best of me, too.

(52:12):
No, you're- Smart?
No, no, you're right.
You're… I apologize.
I apologize to everybody.
I apologize to ayahuasca.
So, so a couple of good takeaways.
First, listen to your consultants.
That was said loud andclear in this interview.
All right.
Well-
So- … that was self-serving.
But secondly, start your podcast.
I think- Yeah
I think start your podcast.
Give it a whirl.
Yeah, give it a whirl.
So this was great.
Oh my goodness.
So Emily Shaw, emilyshawcreates.com.

(52:34):
Bridget Conley, the research directorof the World Peace Foundation.
Please go find Disrupting Peace.
We'll put it in the show notes.
We're gonna put 117 linksin the show notes- S-
just so that folks can, you know, findeverything we talked about and a few
things that we didn't even talk about.
And honestly, I'd love it someday, Eric,I, I… If we could get Emily and Bridget
back, I'd love to hear how this workprogresses for them and what they learn
along the way, 'cause this is so exciting.

(52:55):
So Eric, thank you.
That was a great conversation.
Thank you, Emily and Bridget, forbeing so generous to come here and
talk with us about Disrupting Peace.
And thank y'all be for listening to us.
We'll, we'll see you nexttime on Let's Hear It.
Okay, everybody, that'sit for this episode.
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.

(53:17):
And we'd like to thank JohnAllee, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music.
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation.
And please check out Lumina'sterrific podcast, Today's Students,
Tomorrow's Talent, and you canfind that at luminafoundation.org.
We certainly thank today'sguest, and of course, all of you.
And most importantly,thank you, Mr. Brown.

(53:38):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Okay, everybody.
Till next time
Okay, come on.
So, okay, so here's my ideas.
Wanna hear them?

(53:59):
No.
Come on.
They're, they're really good ideas.
No.

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