What Every Nonprofit Communicator Can Learn From Arts Marketing Genius Sean Kelly

Sean Kelly is one of the sharpest marketing minds Eric has ever met — and he's spent his career doing something all arts organizations dearly want to do: truly understand what their audiences want, align it with their own artistic vision, and set ticket prices accordingly.

Sean is the founder of Vatic, a dynamic pricing company for performing arts organizations. His genius is his ability to look at a mountain of data and pull out the story it's trying to tell — then use that story to fill auditoriums and strengthen arts organizations.

If you work in or fund the arts, clear your calendar. But any nonprofit communicator can learn a ton from Sean. His ability to truly understand what his audience wants – and needs – is a great lesson for us all.

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Episode Transcript

Kirk (00:00):
Welcome to Let's Hear It.

Eric (00:01):
Let's Hear It is a podcast for and about the field of foundation and
nonprofit communications, produced by itstwo co-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No relation.

Kirk (00:12):
Well said, Eric.
And I'm Kirk.

Eric (00:14):
And I'm Eric.
Let's Hear It is sponsored by thePrebys Foundation, a foundation
creating an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.
Check out their amazingly goodpodcast, Stop and Talk, hosted by
Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
You can find them atstopandtalkpodcast.com.

Kirk (00:30):
You can find Let's Hear It on any podcast subscription platform.

Eric (00:33):
You can find us online at letzhearitcast.com.

Kirk (00:36):
And if you like the show, please, please, please rate us

Eric (00:40):
on Apple Podcasts so that more people can find us.

Sean (00:43):
Let's get onto the show.

Kirk (00:45):
You know, I think with this episode we're coming way back to your home turf.
Ah.
We're coming back, we're coming backto your favorite place to reside.
, It's all these things, but thisis the heart of it for you.
This is where you're most happy.
This is your happy place.
This is your

Eric (00:59):
happy

Kirk (00:59):
place on

Eric (00:59):
Earth.
My people , the arts people are my people.

Kirk (01:01):
This is it.
This is so it.
It's so clear.
It's so awesome.
This is it.
, This is home turf for Eric Brown.

Eric (01:07):
Yes, and.
Well done.
As they say- Welldone … in the improv world.

Kirk (01:13):
Yeah.

Eric (01:13):
Yes, and.
Do you wanna know what the and is?

Kirk (01:16):
Please, please give me the and.

Eric (01:18):
All right.
So if you stumbled upon the podcastand you go, "Oh, no, an arts marketing
person. What in the hell- Mm … arethey talking about? Why, I'm a
nonprofit foundation, communications,whatever the hell I am." Yeah.
"Why do I gotta listen to some nonprofitmarketing guy? Not interested."
Well, okay, here's why.
, , i spoke with Sean Kelly, who runs acompany called Vatic, and what he does

(01:41):
is- Vatic … he, it's a marketingfirm for people to sell more tickets.
And you're like, "What in the hellare you, Eric, are you…" So I've
known Sean for a million years.

Kirk (01:50):
Hmm.

Eric (01:51):
Since he was the head of marketing for a performing arts
organization here in the Bay Area,and he is, to my mind, I think I might
have said this during the thing- Youdid … the smartest, most brilliant
marketing person I have ever known.
Hmm.
And I think that the sorts of approachesthat he takes to putting as many tuchuses-

(02:12):
in as many seats for as much money aspossible in the theater are absolutely
applicable to a communicator, to anexecutive director, even to a foundation
president, because what he does is helistens so carefully to his audience,
and he studies the numbers and thedata, and he lets those things drive

(02:36):
how he talks about the work, whatto charge, all that sort of thing.
So this could apply to your fundraising.
This could apply to your communicationsand messaging, to how you, if you're a
nonprofit organization that is tryingto, to engage new donors, how you market
your organiza- all that kinda stuff.
And Ch- Sean is funny.
He's really, really smart.

(02:57):
And so I would say don't back out just'cause you go, "Arts, I don't do arts."
That's my admonition.

Kirk (03:03):
Hey, there's so many things we love in this episode.
It's the origin story.
It's the passion.
It's the clear, , insight and brilliance.
It's the stick-to-it-iveness, whichwe'll talk about when we come back.
So this is Sean Kelly.
I will say it's Vatic, V-A-T-I-C,'cause that's not always obvious when
we talk- when we say it out loud.
And you find them atVatic, V-A-T-I-C, .tech.

(03:25):
You'll find them there.
And I love Vatic's missionstatement or tagline or whatever,
"Dynamic pricing while you sleep."
So Sean Kelly, thank you so muchfor coming on Let's Hear It.
This is a great conversation.
We'll listen, we'll come back.
This is Sean Kelly on Let's Hear It.

Eric (03:46):
There's a tension at the heart of every arts organization that folks
don't always like to talk about.
On the one side, you've got the artists,the musicians, the directors, the
performers, the people who've given theirlives to their craft, and they believe
rightly that what they're doing matters.
On the other side, you've got seats.
Some of them are empty.
A lot of them are empty.
Their costs are going up.

(04:07):
The box office, it needsto hit its numbers.
And somewhere in the middle, you've gotthe marketing department, which a lot
of people in the arts world view the waymaybe a chef views the health inspector.
Necessary maybe, but notexactly welcome in the kitchen.
So here's the thing, though.
Arts organizations are businesses.
And in a moment when they are scramblingjust to keep their doors open, getting

(04:30):
that right has never mattered more.
My guest today has spent his careerliving in that tension, leading
marketing at TheatreWorks in PaloAlto and the Dallas Symphony.
And eight years ago, he started acompany called Vadic to help arts
organizations do something the airlineindustry figured out decades ago, for
good or ill, charge the right pricefor the right seat at the right time.

(04:51):
His name is Sean Kelly.
He is one of the sharpestmarketing minds I know.
, Today we're gonna talk about what itactually takes to fill a house and why
getting more people through the doordoesn't have to mean selling your soul.
Sean Kelly, I'm so happy to have you here.
Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Sean (05:09):
Eric, thank you so much for inviting me.
It is an absolute delight to be here.

Eric (05:14):
Okay, I have long felt that you are the most brilliant marketing
mind in, I don't know, the world.
So I have admired you from closeand from afar, and I'm looking
forward to this conversation.

Sean (05:26):
Well, you're, you're far too kind.
I, I remember very fondly our daysof working with your wife back
at TheatreWorks Silicon Valleywhen you were my board crush.
So it's love- It's lovelyto be able to reconnect.

Eric (05:39):
I'll say.
I remember going into youroffice, and first of all, you
had this great big whiteboardthat had a million things on it.
There was numbers, there was words, therewas questions, there was everythings.
And I would, I'd ask you aquestion like, "Okay, , what does
the house look like next week?"
And you'd know the answer.
And I would say, ", what doyou think the biggest problem
is?" And you'd know the answer.
W- what is it about your brain?

(06:01):
What kind of questions haveyou come to learn how to ask
to be able to do your job?

Sean (06:08):
I, I think it actually, it probably gets back to, , getting
a graduate degree in theater.
And if I have to kind of distill thatdown to, like, what were those essential
tools I received from that, it wouldbe the ability to craft a narrative,
regardless of whether you're performingthat narrative on a stage or you're trying

(06:29):
to analyze a script or- In my case, ifyou're looking at a large data set, right?
How do you understand whatthe data's trying to tell you?
And I was able to use that when, after Ifinished my graduate degree and decided
I didn't want to be an actor, and Iended up working at Starbucks Corporation
as a product manager, and I did thisgiant data pull, , where I pulled the

(06:54):
sales from 10,000 stores for a year.
Right?
Wow.
It took days for it tocome out of the system.
And then when I looked at it, I wasable to see that there was all of this
waste inside of the system, that therewere really actually only about 18 to
24 things that patrons really wantedto buy out of the pastry case, and

(07:19):
then there was all this other crap.
And so I presented that databack to the organization.
I was like, "We are spinningour…" Literally there's a term
called a SKU, a stock keeping unit.
There were literally 375 stockkeeping units, but there's only
18 to 24 that actually sell.
But there were multiple permutationsof the same thing, so there was like 18

(07:43):
different versions of a blueberry muffin.
But we didn't have 18… at Starbucksyou didn't have 18 versions of a latte.
You just had the latte.
And so my proposal to the organizationwas- … well, we should just come up
with one blueberry muffin, and theneveryone should be forced to sell it.
'Cause there were stores that weren'tselling blueberry muffins because
they literally thought they couldn'tsell blueberry muffins, even though

(08:04):
it's the number one selling SKU.
So it was that kind of thing.
And so then, you know, I, I leftStarbucks and I went into the world of
theater, and I just started using thatsame logic of, well, the patrons are
trying to tell us something, , with theirticket buying behavior, so we need, we
just need to be able to pay attention.
We need to be able to builda narrative out of that.

Eric (08:27):
What are the patient, patrons trying to tell you?
The

Sean (08:29):
patrons are trying to tell you-

Eric (08:30):
In general
… Sean: what an evening or an afternoon of their time is worth.
And we've all had shows ortitles that you couldn't even-
Mm … give tickets away, right?
When I was at the Fifth Avenue Theaterin Seattle, we presented the world

(08:52):
premiere of , a musical by an author whoshall remain nameless for the purpose
of this call, and she was very famous,and I could not give tickets away-
to this show.
And I lost a lot of sleep overthat because we had all these
performances- … and it was a2,000-seat hall, and you're just trying
to make sure that the performers onstage are having a good experience.

(09:16):
And there's a certain point whereyou have to acknowledge the fact
that, like, you're not a god.
You can't fix everything.
And you just have to pay attention towhat patrons are telling you, and I
think a lot of arts organizations endup spending, a lot of arts marketers
end up spending a majority of theirtime worrying about the things that

(09:38):
aren't working When there's actuallynot a whole lot they can do about those.
Rather than focusing their time on thethings that are working and how they
can leverage that- Mm-hmm … successfor the good of the theater or
orchestra or opera or ballet.
But there is the, there, of course, there is this tension.

(09:59):
Needless to say, if you have a, a playthat is so obscure or abstruse that
you just can't get anybody to come,then , you'd probably wanna start that…
You, you don't wanna put it at theFifth Avenue Theater with 2,000 seats.
A theater in w- by, by the way, in whichI have performed way, way back when.
So it's a little Fifth Avenue- Oh,

Sean (10:15):
well.

Eric (10:16):
I know.
In, in the national tour of On GoldenPond with, , J- Lovely … James
Whitmore, 1981-something.
Anyway.

Sean (10:24):
It's a, it's a big haul for a straight play.

Eric (10:26):
I see.
Uh- A digression.
Anyhow, but there are these tensionsbecause y- you know, if you're the ballet,
you can't do Nutcracker every week.
, Th- there are how do you think aboutputting together a season in which,
, you get, your artistic yayas out andalso find those popular things that
you know are gonna fill the seats?
How does that work?

Sean (10:44):
Yeah, I mean, our advice always to clients is absolutely, we don't
want you to only do blockbusters.
We want you to do thingsthat are more obscure.
We want you to do world premieres.
Those are important.
Those are especiallyimportant for subscribers.
You wanna make sure that yoursubscribers are getting things
in front of them that feel freshand new and help you retain them.

(11:06):
Subscribers are thelifeblood of American arts.
But at the same time,

Eric (11:12):
you're,

Sean (11:12):
you have to acknowledge that there's probably not gonna be a lot
of money that comes in from those.
And so you're gonna have tobalance that out with things
that are gonna pay the bills.
And so you have to be able to do it all.
And the challenge is, you know, wehave a couple of clients this year
in the world of symphony who'vegot brand-new music directors.
And music directors come in andthey have been hired for their

(11:34):
vision, and invariably in yearone they execute that vision.
But unfortunately, it looks justdifferent enough from what their
folks have been used to that they pullback on spending and on purchasing
tickets because it's not, , itdoesn't quite hit the sweet spot.

(11:56):
And it's always very challenging tohave to go back to artistic and say,
"Listen, , there's nothing wrong withthe programming. Really interesting,
but there weren't enough kind ofmeat and potatoes titles in there to
ensure that we hit the revenue goalsthat we need for the organization."

Eric (12:18):
Does it make the artistic people crazy when the marketing people
come in and say, "Give us somethingthat's a little less obscure"?

Sean (12:24):
They don't love it, I will tell you that.
They don't love it, and untilyou become a trusted partner,
which can often take years-

Eric (12:31):
Mm-hmm
… Sean: until you become a s- trusted partner, coming back to them and saying,
"You know, we don't have enough moneycoming in the door," and they'll be
like, "What are you talking about?
That's the clarinet concerto.
All of the clar…" I literally hadsomeone say this to me- … when you're
like, "All of the clarinet lovers inDallas are going to be flocking to the
Meyerson Symphony Center." And I was like,"I'm not saying they're not, but also

(12:53):
there's maybe, like, 20." Like, there'sjust not enough of them compared to the
people who will flock to the organizationwhen you're doing Beethoven's Fifth.
Yeah.
I, I seem to recall someconversations I had with you about
obscure- … bits of classical musicthat you were attempting to market.
So, oh, and then when I was doing theread, when I said the thing about the, how

(13:16):
the chef views the health inspector, yourface turned a very funny set of colors.

Sean (13:22):
Well, you know, I used to work in restaurants and so the- … the
health inspector analogy is apt. It'spainful , I don't think you're wrong.
I've never thought of it that way.
But, I, do think that's,that's pretty accurate.
And unfortunately, it's not how artsorganizations are most successful when

(13:45):
you have this kind of Hatfields andMcCoys tension either between artistic
and marketing or marketing and developmentor, like, , whoever the two sides may be.
Both of them have a job, and artsorganizations work the best when the
artistic department is making reallystrong artistic decisions and when

(14:05):
the marketing department is thereas an advocate for the patron, where
they're coming forward and saying,"Listen, we are an organization that
was built for the community, and sohere's the data that we have to help
us make choices because this is whatwe know the community wants to see."

Eric (14:23):
Now you talk about subscribers being the lifeblood, but we are
seeing subscriptions plummeting.
The youngs, they don't do subscriptions.
The model for filling ahouse has changed a lot.
Can you talk about what folksare dealing with right now?

Sean (14:37):
So I have a different point of view on subscriptions than a lot of people.
People have been forecasting the deathof subscriptions for, like, 20 years.
Subscriptions are still alive andwell, and the few organizations that
I'm aware of that turned off theirsubscription model have suffered-

Eric (14:55):
Hmm
… Sean: greatly because of that.
That said, it is very hard, and itbecomes more difficult every year.
One of the interesting things thatwe found with our clients at Vatic
is that they will bring us in, andwe will do dynamic pricing for them
for the first year, and that canoften mean that individual titles or
individual performances of individualtitles will see some significant

(15:19):
increases, prices that for most of theseorganizations the patrons have never
experienced before because the systemis designed to actually evaluate what
is the true value of this performance.
And it doesn't have any emotionalbaggage that goes along with that.
And so if the system is saying, you know,and it creeps up, right, day by day.

(15:42):
So if it thinks it's supposedto be $200, then it's $200.
Now, folks inside the organizationmight have a different point of view,
and they're entitled to that opinion.
Mm-hmm.
If they were going to buy a ticket,they might think that price is too
much, but they're not the ticket buyers.
The ticket buyers are the ticket buyers.
So anyway, we go through that first year.

(16:02):
You know, some of theprices move up, right?
They see some, higher pricescome into the marketplace than
have been there in the past.
But then this weird thing happens in year two, which is they
see this huge surge in subscriptions.

Sean (16:15):
And the reason for that is because now suddenly the value of
subscription has become perfectly clear.
. Because for a lot of these organizations,when people call in and, , they're like,
"Oh, we wanna get a cou- you know, a pairof tickets," and then they find out what
the price is, a lot of the box office willsay, "Well, you know, you could actually
just get a three performance subscriptionfor that same price, same seat."

(16:36):
And suddenly, like, thelight bulb goes off.
It's like, oh, now there's really avalue in making that advance commitment.
So much so that, , last year fiveof our clients actually put a cap
on subscriptions 'cause they feltlike they were gonna sell too many
subscription seats and it was gonnahurt their single ticket revenue.

Eric (16:54):
Wow.
Wow.
Oh, and, before we go to the break,I would love for you to tell me
the John Denver story 'cause youtold it to me a long time ago.
The John

Sean (17:01):
Denver story.

Eric (17:01):
And it made me laugh.

Sean (17:02):
So in my early days at the Dallas Symphony, we had a tribute
band coming through doing a showcalled The Music of John Denver.
We had given it a relatively, we'dgiven it a relatively low goal.
It was on subscription.
It had not done well on subscription,and , we did not really have high hopes.
First day of single ticket sales, we gotthe data back and sales had skyrocketed.

(17:26):
It was well in excess of whatwe thought it was gonna be.
And so I went to the product managerfor pops and I said, "Hey, look at what
happened with John Denver. Do you wannaraise prices?" 'Cause we want her to
feel like she has, you know, agency overwhat's happening with the prices for
the titles that she's responsible for.

(17:47):
And she said, "Sean,"she was a little salty.
She said, "Sean, how about you do whateveryou feel is right to do for John Denver,
and I'm gonna go over here and workon something that actually matters."

Eric (18:00):
Uh-huh.

Sean (18:01):
And so we thought, okay, well, this is the perfect example.
Like, we can just let the algorithmsdo their thing, and we're not
gonna press the edit button.
We're just gonna let them do their things.
And so the question we always ask whenwe tell the story is what do you think
the top price was for The Music of JohnDenver at the Dallas Symphony Center?
For a loge seat at theDallas Symphony Center.

Eric (18:22):
It's gonna be high, isn't it?

Sean (18:24):
And yeah, it was $276.
And here's the thing

Eric (18:31):
It wasn't…
John Denver's dead, right?
It wasn't the actual John Denver.

Sean (18:36):
And then the tribute band arrived, and they saw where the prices were, and
they went to operations and they said,"Hey, we went to the website and the
prices have really gotten quite high."And he's like, "Yeah, that's, that's what
the marketing department is in charge of."
And he goes, "Y- they do realizethat John Denver is dead?"
It's like, "Yes, they, they're awareof that too." But here's the thing,

(18:59):
those performances didn't sell out.
We were never gonna sell outtwo performances in a 2,000-seat
venue, , for the music of John Denver.
The, but the people who wantedto come really wanted to come.
They missed John Denver, and sothey were excited to come see it.
How many complaints didwe get about high prices?
Absolutely none.

Eric (19:17):
Huh.

Sean (19:17):
People were thrilled.
And there's actually very gooddata that shows that the more you
spend on something, the higheryour satisfaction is with it.
And so those people had a fantastic time.
Ball Symphony made an extra $50,000 offof those two performances above and beyond

(19:39):
what it was originally forecast to do.
I don't care what organizationyou're at, $50,000 is real money.

Eric (19:47):
That's a great story.
, I love that story.
Okay, we're gonna take a very quick break,and we'll be back and we'll, we're gonna
talk more about what you have done withall of this incredible knowledge and s-
skill and artistry, , right after this.
You're listening to Let's HearIt, a podcast about foundation and
nonprofit communications hostedby Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.

(20:07):
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Break FakeRules with Glenn Galich, CEO of the
Stupski Foundation, as he chats withinspiring leaders in philanthropy,
government, media, and more aboutbreaking the fake rules that don't work
so that we can build a future that does.
Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now, back to

Kirk (20:28):
the

Eric (20:28):
show.
Welcome back.
My guest is Sean Kelly.
He is the marketing geniusbehind this company called Vadic,
which does dynamic pricing.
You thought you were signingup to hear, um, Let's Hear It:
Communications and Strategy forNonprofits and Foundations, the, the…
We will get there, but… And,and this is not, like, a, a, a

(20:50):
pay-to-play marketing , thing.
Uh, Sean is just one of the smartest,best marketing people I know, and I think
that his insights have so much value fornonprofits around the country in terms
of u- understanding how to communicatewith an audience , and reach them.
And you have built these relationshipswith these organizations based , on
this knowledge that you have, andyou started this company designed to

(21:13):
maximize the value , of every seatin that, in the theater or , the
venue , that your clients work in.
So can you talk a little bitabout Vadic and , how you took all
that cleverness that you have andturned it into this new business?

Sean (21:27):
Well, I worked on the algorithms for a long time.
We have 16 algorithms and, you know,the very first one we built at DataWorks
Silicon Valley, and then as we wouldfind more and more things that we felt
like there was some kind of anomalywith the data, and so we needed, , an
algorithm to work around that.
We needed it to work with that, too,'cause , it was having some kind of

(21:50):
an impact on what prices you shouldbe charging for single ticket prices.
And so we built things around seasonality.
We built special algorithms for holiday,'cause holiday sells differently.
We built, , algorithms whensomething is absolutely, positively
has to be a sellout, and yougotta move through every seat.

(22:10):
There's special algorithms for thingsthat are… where it's hard to fill seats.
So, you know, it's taking this verythree-dimensional view of what's
going on with your organization andtrying to manage prices according
to that, but at the same time,take human emotion out of it.
, Most of our clients are doing dynamicpricing of one style or another.

(22:35):
But almost always there's a limitto what that can do because they're
human beings, and human beings havefeelings, and we say, "Oh, we couldn't
possibly charge more than $100,"or- "… We couldn't possibly charge
more than $200," or whatever that is.
But again, you're not the ticket buyer.
The ticket buyer is the ticket buyer.
So how do we get to that sense ofwhat the ticket buyer thinks, and how

(23:01):
do we do that in a logical fashion?
So , we took all those algorithms, , wedid , a pilot test in North Carolina.
, You know, they made anextra $100,000 that year.
For a small symphony in NorthCarolina, that's a big deal.
So we felt like, nope, we'vegot something that really works.
We commercialized it.
We now have a bunch of differentintegrations with Tessitura,

(23:23):
Spektrix, PatronManager, AudienceView.
And so we integrate with their systemsand manage their prices on a daily basis.

Eric (23:32):
And so sometimes prices go up, sometimes they go down,
sometimes they stay the same.
And i- it's, I, if I understand thiscorrectly, you're trying to get the
most… , if you could charge a milliondollars for one seat, you probably
wouldn't do it because then you'd, thenpeople would be playing to a single
patron, and that's not what you want.
You want a, as full a house aspossible w- that produces as
much money as possible, right?

Sean (23:52):
Right.
It has to be able to do both.
, It's all well and good if wecan raise, it's an industry term
here, the average ticket price.
We can raise the average ticket price 15%,but then if you sell fewer tickets, well,
then that, that's not a success, right?
You have to be able to do both.
And so we look at average ticketprice, we look at the average number

(24:12):
of single tickets sold per performance,and then lastly, we look at the
average amount of single ticketrevenue per performance, and that's
how we measure growth year over year.
And for our clients, on average,that is 23% growth year over year,
and that's on top of the dynamicpricing they were already doing.

(24:36):
And then we try and build a system that,for our multi-year clients, becomes stable
and continues to grow, and continues togrow that cumulative increase in revenue.

Eric (24:48):
Well, you've looked at a lot of data now over these eight years,
and then, uh, certainly before.
W- what do you know about artsaudiences that you think arts
organizations ought to know?

Sean (25:04):
Oh, well, I think arts audiences value your product far more highly than
you do And I think it comes from a cultureof less than in the nonprofit arts, and
that's why people are paid so poorly andthe organizations are under-resourced.

(25:25):
And they do it for the right reasons.
They do it because they thinkthat the problem with people
coming is price, and so they wannakeep prices as low as possible.
But by and large, the problemwith people coming isn't price.
The problem with people coming is product.
It's programming.
And the folks who are doing it the bestare the ones who are paying attention

(25:46):
to serving the needs of their communitywhile maintaining a high level of art.
And the ones who are more ego-ledare the ones who are struggling

Eric (26:02):
So interesting.
In San Francisco, I don't knowif you've been following the San
Francisco theater scene, for example.
, A number, I, I can't remember how many,a good dozen theater companies have
closed in the last, , since the pandemic.
And I'm just wondering if youhave , any Sean Kelly wisdom to drop
on w- why you think that happened.
, It's possible that some of thesethings that you talked about , are

(26:24):
in play, but is there anything else?
Is there anything else about how peoplego to the theater or how they take
in their arts that has changed thatorganizations missed and they need to
be thinking about more of these days?

Sean (26:36):
So for those of us of a certain age and I'm including
you and I in that group, right?

Eric (26:42):
Thank you.
I am, I am of more of a certainage than you are, by the way.

Sean (26:46):
We're both of a certain age, right?
We all remember going into grandma'skitchen and opening up the junk
drawer, and there was that giantball of rubber bands because grandma
was raised during the Depression.
And so you saved everything, right?
The Depression literally changed people'sDNA when it came to living in this world.

(27:09):
And the same thing has actuallyhappened for our current modern society.
Our DNA has been changed when it comes toattending performing arts, planning for
attending performing arts, subsc- whichof course it affects subscribing, right?
And we, lots of folks haven'tnecessarily taken that into account,

(27:33):
and what it's really gotten down tois that folks have to have a really
good reason to leave their house.
And if you're not putting thatreally good reason in front of
them, they're not gonna come.
And that's harsh.
You know, I grew up in San Francisco.
I hope to move back there someday.
I'm currently living in Dallas.

(27:53):
Please don't hold that against me.
I met my husband here, and nowapparently- … I am destined to
live the rest of my life in Texas.
But I grew up in San Francisco, and Iremember what an incredibly rich, vibrant
performing arts community there was, andall of these wonderful, beautiful little

(28:15):
organizations that were doing thesevery niche but very important works.
But on the other side, you could saythat it was somewhat oversaturated.
And so as the total number ofpatrons shrinks, so has the number of
organizations because it's become harder.

(28:35):
And it's painful to have totalk to those organizations who
are making really special work.
And I have two degrees in theater,so I know a bit about niche
theater It's painful to have tosay to them, "You need to adapt."
But the reality is they've gotta adapt,and if they're not putting something

(28:56):
in front of people that's compellingenough, then audiences won't come out.
One of our clients is in the Midwest.
They just finished building… A coupleyears ago, they just finished building
a new, , 200-seat black box theater.
Beautiful facility.
And then they would always puton a production in winter for
it, and then no one would come.
And they were really starting to struggle.

(29:17):
They were like, "Should we justnot…" They asked me last year,
they, "Should we just not be bookinganything into this?" And I said,
"You just finished building it.
You spent a lot of money on it.
What are you talking about?" I said, "Youneed to put something in it that's so
amazing that people, even in the winter,even in the blizzard, they will come
out." I said, "Put the right title in,and it will change your point of view

(29:37):
on this venue." And so what did they do?
They put in The Mousetrap And ithas- It has completely sold out
the entire run, and people arewriting them all these love letters.
"It's the perfect venue, and it wasso intimate, and we loved it so much."

Eric (29:51):
Right.

Sean (29:51):
And this is the classic example.
Like, they haven't moved off-brand, right?
But they found something thatwould really speak to their
patrons, and the patrons came out.

Eric (30:03):
Yeah, even in fancy, fancy London, Mousetrap has been
running for 100 years, right?
Right.
Uh, so l- let's, so y- you mentionedthat Vadic works with folks
who are on specific ticketing-

Sean (30:15):
Mm-hmm
… Eric: platforms like Tessitura and others, and some of them, I think, are,
relatively small-sized organizations areon some of those ticketing platforms.
Is that correct?
Absolutely.
So we have organizations thathave as few as 200 seats, and we
are very successful with them.

Eric (30:31):
Now, , for o- organizations that are not yet in the
position to work with Vadic or-

Sean (30:35):
Mm-hmm
… Eric: they're not on the right kinda platforms or whatever, the small
regional theater or the communityorchestra, whatever it is, what's
your ad- what's your advice for them?
How do they market smarter?
How do they price in waysthat can maximize their return
and still fill the house?
So the first step is they've gotta be having conversations.
They've gotta be having conversationswith their development colleagues.

(30:56):
They've gotta be having conversationswith their artistic colleagues.
They have to be having conversationswith the managing director or the CEO.
And those conversations have to revolvearound, A, who is our , art for?
It's for the community.
B, w- how do they value it, and howdo our internal points of view on

(31:20):
value get in the way- Mm-hmm … offinding what that true value is?
And then the outcome that happensfrom that, by having this very honest
conversation about we're the problem
The outcome from that is, A, you canstart to explore what audiences think

(31:41):
the true value of your art is, right?
And you can start to really,, get in alignment with that.
And the more in alignment you get withthat, the better tickets will sell.
It's, it is a fallacy that the best wayto sell more tickets is cheaper tickets.
I remember talking to an organization,and they were like, "Oh, we have
all of these, you know, $29 seats."

(32:02):
It was an opera company.
"We have all these $29 seats inthe upper balcony, and they never
sell." And I was like, "Right, 'causethey know they're terrible seats.
You've told them they're terrible seats'cause you're only charging $29 for them."
Like, you, you can't bamboozle people,and the low price doesn't necessarily get
them to do the thing you want them to do.
But once you start to align thoseprices with what people ac- your

(32:24):
patrons actually think the value is,this other thing happens that I think
is actually the really important thing.
Which is you as an individual inthat arts organization start to
understand your own true value.

Eric (32:40):
That's, that's, uh, wonderfully put.
You know, as you were talking, Iwas thinking that, uh, lot of - arts
organizations are kinda like the chefwho wo- who won't put salt or pepper
on the table 'cause you're gonna,you're gonna eat it the way I made it,
and you, you, I don't care, I don'tcare what your, what your tastes are.
Is, is that appropriate?

, Sean (32:59):
I think there's a broad spectrum of arts leadership that's out there, and
we have a lot of great arts leaders whoare in the organizations that we service
as VADIC, , and all of us are learning.
The hard part is that often no one'swilling to have a conversation.
No one's willing to go to theircolleagues in artistic and say,

(33:21):
"Listen, love the season, but-
we need a money maker in slotnumber three We can't have three
weekends of piano concertos in a row.
Right?
Like, it, it, it can be hard to justsay, like, there's a need that we have.

(33:44):
We ha- Yeah … we havea need for revenue.
That's how we pay bills.
That's how we pay our wonderful staff.
That's how you pay all of thosewonderful performers on the stage.
And we have-- There has to be a balancedconversation about that, and sometimes
that means charging more, and sometimesit means charging less, and sometimes
it means choosing a title that is alittle bit more like "The Mousetrap."

(34:09):
And none of those are bad things,because at the end of the day, we're
just trying to keep the doors open.

Eric (34:17):
Well, you're keeping the doors open, , for a lot of places.
, I think it's just extraordinarywhat you have built.
I'm just so impressed.
And I would say for folks outthere, and this is-- Yeah, I will
give you the shameless-- I'll dothe shameless shill plug for Vadic.
, This is a, you know, a non-compensatedshill 'cause I just believe
in what you're doing so well.

(34:37):
Folks should, , give Sh-Shawn a call and,, just, , pick his brain a little bit.
Talk to him about what your organizationis doing and what it could be doing
better, and I have a feeling that, he'll have great advice and maybe
even y-you can be a, become a client.
But the idea is w- the wisdom that youhave brought to understanding how to
listen, , how to read the tea leaves,and how to take the data and turn it into

(34:58):
really useful information is, , alchemy.
And I, I just so-- amso impressed with you.
I'm so happy that you cameon to talk about your work.

Sean (35:07):
Well, it's been an absolute delight.
Thank you for having me.

Kirk (35:12):
And we're back And we're back.
So yeah, I love this.
Dynamic pricing while you sleep.
I love so many aspectsof this conversation.
Can I tell you though, actually, oneof the things that I most appreciated
is you, , as you came to , your hometurf for this discussion- Uh-huh
is the visibility into the dynamicsaround an arts organization and these

(35:33):
different aspects of the arts organizationand how they have to get aligned.
And when you start talking about it,it makes perfect sense, but if you're
not in that world, you're probablynot thinking about these, these
push and pulls and these tensions.
And as you were setting this up initiallyand talking about, hey, these are all the
aspects where, you know, anybody doingany kind of work , could relate to this,
I actually think this is part of it too.

(35:53):
I mean, every organization that we workwith that we know that w- we're in this
mission and purpose-driven work, there'salways this disconnect between sort of
the back of the house and the front- Yeah
of the house, you know what I mean?
Who's, who's setting the calendarfor what's happening versus , what
your marketing and communicationspeople know that your audiences
are gonna be responding to.
, So I thought even just thatdynamic itself was a great
starting point for all of this.

Eric (36:14):
Well, it, you know, his idea that the ticket buyers are the ticket buyers.
Yeah.
They're the ones who buy the tickets,and- … you have to understand what
they care about and what they want.
Mm-hmm.
And if you devalue, if you cut theprice of your tickets, they're g-
you're sending them a signal thatthis stuff isn't worth anything.

(36:34):
And I think that we do thisin so many ways in a- across
foundation communications.
Oh,

Kirk (36:41):
yeah.
Oh, yeah.

Eric (36:41):
You know, we don't pay our people enough because we're supposed
to all just care so much so that wecan work at p- pennies on the dollar.
We don't ask for enoughmoney from donors- Mm-hmm.
Right … because wedon't want to offend them.
Yeah.
, We don't talk about our work in waysthat are meaningful to the people
who we're trying to communicate with.
I can't tell you, and I'm sure you've seenthis, I cannot tell you how many times

(37:05):
I've seen an organization's name createdover somebody's kitchen table because they
thought- … it sounded good, or , thenew initiative was started- Yeah … like
two people's like, "What should we callit?" "Oh, let's call it, uh, whatever.
Accelerating and Scaling Impact." "That'swhat we do." It's like, oh my God.
So I, so I think those things are- Or

Kirk (37:24):
our stakeholders.

Eric (37:26):
Or for our stakeholders.
Because we- Yeah … understandit, so therefore-
Yeah … that's all that matters.
Yeah.
And I think that Sean does the exactsame thing in, in thinking about how
do you promote an arts organization andmake sure that you get as many people
in the seat paying as much money aspossible, and you just have to get over

(37:47):
that stuff, espe- especially in, inthe perf- f- performing arts because
people's like, "Ooh, we shouldn't,you know, cut people out or whatever."
, You can find ways to ensure thatyou can give tickets to people who
wouldn't otherwise get there, but donot undersell your work, and do not
tell people that it has no value.

Kirk (38:06):
And , this kind of magic-

Eric (38:08):
Well, I'm all worked up, Kirk.
I'm, I'm, uh, feeling-

Kirk (38:09):
It's ins- I'm a little

Eric (38:11):
verklempt … this is,

Kirk (38:11):
you're on your home turf.
This is it.
This is your love.
This is your first love.
I was realistic.
By the way, nationaltour of On Golden Pond.
What a, what a drop.
What a name drop.
Oh, yeah, I performedon the national tour.
What a, what a flex.
What a flex.

Eric (38:24):
Eh.

Kirk (38:24):
But, um- It

Eric (38:24):
was a long time ago.
The most interesting thing that everhappened to me was over 40 years ago.
So, you know, whatever.

, Kirk (38:30):
So also- Some flex … , we get some visibility into this superpower, , and I
love how Sean pulls this forward, but alsohow this is woven into Sean's work today.
Graduate degree in theater.
Second he says that, I'm like, "Oh, I wishI had that, too." , But then what does…
, i kinda wanna know, like,what, what happened?
There's almost like a s- there's almostlike , a Marvel comic- … , origin

(38:52):
story here, because you emerge from thegraduate- Different Sean … , you emerge
with a graduate degree in theater, andsomehow you get this inclination that
I actually wanna build narrative arounddata And I thought that comment alone,
we should pull it out and build an entireyear worth of episodes just on that idea.

(39:13):
Because this is actually whatwe're asking our communicators
to do increasingly, right?
Let's

Eric (39:18):
excite people by talking about data.
It's fun.

Kirk (39:20):
But let's, we're talking about building data, narrative around data.
, And where does Sean actually apply that?

Eric (39:25):
Blueberry

Kirk (39:26):
muffins.
And I, I wish… Starbucks.
Blueberry

Eric (39:28):
muffins.
And I

Kirk (39:29):
wish… , i'd love to know what you have to do to get data from every
Starbucks store everywhere, and the factthat he's pulling so much information,
it takes days- … for it to come back.
I'm sure that's a little bit faster today.
, But he's demonstrating this capacity to belike, "Oh, wait, there's a story in here.
There's a story in these numbers.
I can pull this story out of thesenumbers." And that's exactly why it

(39:50):
would be worth it to talk about fora year, because pulling the story
from the numbers is actually, that'sthe thing that changes the world.
, Like when we see all these campaigns thathave impact, when we see all of these, be
it political, be it what have you- Yeah
somebody somewhere is sitting in aplace where they can look at the data,
they know it's actually happening, andthey can weave a narrative out of it.
, And I think frankly it's one deficiencyfor our field as a whole, going back

(40:12):
to your kitchen table comment, , likeour willingness to just sit with that
data, get clear about it, and thenactually pull a story back out of it
that's gonna resonate with audiences.
That's a superpower, and Sean has it, andI would love to know how Sean developed
it , and how he keeps it polished.
Because I think it's intuitively ob-intuitively obvious for some people.
I wonder if it's trainable.
I wonder if it's teachable.

, Eric (40:31):
It's interesting.
I went into his office back when he wasat TheatreWorks, which was the company
that my wife was a fundraiser for, andstarted asking him a whole bunch of
questions about how do you sell tickets.
And g- I, I'm just interestedas , a theater lover and
former person in the theater.
And, , and he had thisgreat big whiteboard.
And then , so I go, , "How doyou know , what to charge?" Yeah.
And he would, he- Yeah … had all thesenumbers written on this whiteboard.

(40:54):
And, I would just ask, youknow, ", what is the demographic?"
He knew the answer.
"When do people come?" He knew the answer.
", What do you think is driving it?" , Hehad really good ideas … Like,
he was asking these questions.
About his patrons so- Mm-hmm … hecould figure out how to get as many
heinies in as many seats for the mostmoney possible, because that's- Yeah
how a theater company survives.

(41:15):
Now- Yeah … if you're not atheater company, you ask different
questions with different things,but, you know, what's working?
I mean, that's the blueberrymuffin story- Mm-hmm.
Right, right … which is what'sworking and how do we know?
And then it's quite possible-Yeah … that, you know, some managers,
they don't like blueberry muffins.
"I'm not gonna put 'em on the menu."Yeah, but they sell, you know?
, My favorite thing wasthe John Denver story.

Kirk (41:34):
Oh my.
Wow.

Eric (41:36):
So this is the Dallas Symphony.
Wow.
The Dallas Symphony- Wow … you know,which plays all sorts of esoteric things,
and at the time they had a conductorwho liked to do kinda edgy stuff.
Yeah.
And then they put a tribute bandfor John Denver- … on the docket.
Yeah.
And it's on the subscription.
Nobody wants to go.
And then he- Yeah … hejacks up the price.

Kirk (41:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And,

Eric (41:58):
and all of a sudden it started getting traction 'cause there's- Yeah
… a lot of John Denver fans in there, andeven the band themselves, they said like
they know that John Denver's dead, right?

Kirk (42:07):
Exactly.

Eric (42:07):
Why are we charging- This is actually … $276 for a ticket- Right.
How is this possible?
… for a tribute band?
Right.
Because people wanted it,and they loved it, so.

Kirk (42:15):
And there's so… Right.
So much in there.
I mean, y- you're doingmarket segmentation.
You're doing, you know,what wins when, where, how.
So, uh, in this- Amazing
what are your patrons trying to tell you?
What is an evening orafternoon of our time worth?
You know, what… That,that's the conversation.
What is an afternoon orevening of our time worth?
And I have to tell you, that's, thatleaves me a little bit cold in a sense-

(42:36):
Uh-huh … 'cause wow, that feels tough.
You know what I mean?
Like, so what is it worth?
, How do I connect and make-Yeah … this worth it for you?
What a difficult task that isfor everybody in the arts field-
It- … and, doing arts work.

Eric (42:46):
And okay, so the, the mousetrap story is another- Yeah … one
that I think is very applicableto anybody, which is you take the,
you- At a difficult time, takesomething that is popular, that people
actually want and like, and do that.
Yeah.
And people go, "Oh, no, no, no.
We're a fancy theater.
We can't do The Mousetrap.
The Mousetrap is crappy." I mean, first ofall- … it's been running for, in London

(43:08):
for s- 57 years or something like that.
So it's like- Oh,right … people like it.
Uh, but- Mm-hmm … but like, "Ohno, we're, we're, we're too good
for that." And, and I think thatthis is a- analogous to how we do
messaging sometimes, w- where we- Hmm
come at something with , a verysimple, straightforward approach.
Yeah.
And then the program people , withthe graduate degree in demography
go, "Oh, no, no, no." Right.

(43:29):
"It's very complicated." It's like- Yeah.
Right … no, if it'scomplicated, you're gonna lose.
Right.
And if you tell- Right … somebody,an audience, that like, "Here's this
esoteric, challenging piece of theater,and we want you to come out at 20 below
zero in the middle of a Midwesternwinter," they're gonna say- Yeah
"No."

Sean (43:43):
Yeah.

Eric (43:44):
You know?
Yeah.
So th- th- that's, so much of thisis, , what are the best ways to
communicate with our audiences?
Yeah.
And don't be afraid to do that.
And that's what he has proved.
He has proved, 'cause the one ofwonderful thing about marketing
is if the people come and givethe money, you know you succeeded.

(44:04):
And our business, like, did wecommunicate- Yeah … with our audience?
Are we driving them to action?
Yeah.
I don't know.
It's really hard to tell.
Right.
It's really hard.
There's so many other people out there.
There's so many different reasonswhy people do things, so we can't
really show that we caused it.
Like, Gerwan goes to bed at nightknowing exactly how much money he
made- Yeah … for his clients.

Kirk (44:21):
So I love to, um, you know, that dynamic of, hey, let's have the right
mix of things so we build the rightaudience, to really have a conversation
about that in an in-depth way.
And, and I, I think about that artsdirector who's saying, "You know, no, we
need to do the, the following six preciousthings that nobody's ever heard of."
Right.
"But just by virtue of us getting intothe world, we're gonna help expand our

(44:42):
artistic awareness." And, and, and Seanand Steven are coming and saying, , that,
"That's well and good, but if you actuallywanna keep the lights on, let's think
about this mix of things." , But thatnotion of needing to become a trusted
partner, and again, that's the partthat's applicable across the board.
I mean, any time, , communications teamsare actually gonna get access to C-suite
conversations, they're gonna actuallybe able to chance- they're gonna give

(45:02):
it a chance to drive strategy insteadof respond to it at the 11th hour.
It's gonna be built on trust.
And- that arts director who's saying,"Let's do the precious thing that
nobody's heard about," that's veryanalogous, just like you pointed out.
It's very analogous to that senior programperson- … who has all the credentials,
16 PhDs, and they're like, , "No, we needto say this with 16 syllables because-

(45:23):
Yeah … it's a really complicatedthing." And we're saying, "Look, if you're
gonna, if you're gonna s- you, you mightbe right, but you're not gonna win."
So, so trust as a currency, again,there's so much woven in here in
terms of how, how Sean is doing thiswork and this piece around trust.
I also don't wanna lose it, because youcan tell from Sean's demeanor, this is
somebody who knows how to build trust.
You know- Yeah.
Yeah, yeah … cares about the arts, comesfrom this background, and wants to build

(45:44):
that trust, and it's something, again,as communicators, we have to think about.
, We're always building this reservoirof trust so that we can leverage
it, we can lean into it, and we candraw, I, I guess, down, even though
I don't think we deplete trust.
I think we actually build it as weshow more- Yeah … and more value
and create more and more outcomes.

Eric (45:59):
No, that's for sure.
And yeah, so when, , the person atthe symphony says, "We wanna do Horst
Fenderstoots 13th clarinet concerto in Dflat minor," and you're like, "Uh-huh."
No one's gonna go.

Kirk (46:14):
So we get the magic here.
, It's get the right content calendar,make sure you're doing the right
things in the right times for theright audiences, and now they're on
the hook, now they're coming forward,now we're gonna price it dynamically.
Right.
And, and so this is the part, this iswhere really the magic happens because…
, and I actually love that conversationaround subscriptions , and Sean
saying, you know, actually, yes,subscriptions are really crucial

(46:35):
for creating a platform of fundingand support for these institutions,
but when you do dynamic pricing, youactually can juice your subscriptions.
And I love that notion- I know
of he's got clients saying, "We can't doany more subscriptions 'cause we only-"
We can't turn off the subscriptions.
Yeah.
We wanna be able to sell single seats.
We have to do both.
So that, so dynamic pricing is a key.
And again, that notion that Sean'ssitting on this reservoir of 16

(46:56):
different algorithms to help, , sliceand dice and figure things out.
I thought, again, , all the differentpieces of the art and science that
Sean is pulling together, plus thatlived experience, um, it's just
really cool to see those glimpsesof how those things come together.

Eric (47:09):
Yeah.
And this is, just so interesting becausehe's asking questions of the data He's
making inferences, he experiments, andthen he lathers, rinses, and repeats.
And so i- in that sense, it's kindanice that you can be so data-driven.
Now, not everybody- Yeah … in our fieldis as able to be data-driven as that,

(47:31):
but I think what he's doing, however,is, when he queries his database, let's
just say, this is him asking importantquestions of his audiences, his own
organizations, all of that stuff, bybeing curious and really pushing, and
not trying to lead the conversation,but trying to listen carefully.

(47:51):
And I do think that that is another one ofthese things that's very, very applicable.
It's why we write the wrong taglines.
It's why we, our organizations are namedin ways that nobody can understand.
It's all that other stuff.
You know, he, instead, we need to havethat Sean Kelly mind of, of, you know,
the curious that, and that reveals itself.

(48:14):
You know?
The ticket buyer is the ticket buyer.
The audience is- Yeah … the audience.
Yeah.
What do they care about, and how dowe create communications that speak to
their values, that en- encourage them,inspire them, move them to do something
of value, and then feel good about itso that they come back and do more, and
we build this trust, and we build thesepartnerships, and we build, build, build.

(48:35):
And that's what he's, , like amazingly…He's like one of those TV shows where they
would, like The Mentalist, he could seethings- … that nobody else could see.
He sees patterns that we can't.
Like, that's Sean.

Kirk (48:45):
Got it.
Yeah.
And look, this takes tenacity, soI wanna put this in Sean's words.
, So Vatic is now seven years old.
Six years ago, Sean gets on LinkedIn andsays, "It's our six-year anniversary.
Vatic is six years old." This is how Seandescribes it: "I started Vatic with my
own money, what is called bootstrapping.
I worked side jobs as aconsultant for years to fund it.
At one point, I had sevengigs beside my full-time job.

(49:07):
I did that because I believed in thepower of getting the price right.
I'd personally experienced it as head ofmar- marketing for multiple arts orgs.
Today we have dozens of clients, theirbefore and after is the story, and that
before and after is revenue's goingup." , So y- you have a great idea,
, you're working it, but guess what?
You're gonna have to keepworking it, because it's
gonna, , it's gonna take time.
It's gonna take effort to move things.

(49:27):
So I do wanna say one thing, andthank you, Sean, for creating
and helping foster healthier artsorganizations, 'cause I think we
would all agree these organizationsare just absolutely important
parts of the fabric of community.
, The one thing that's in the backgroundof dynamic pricing, of course, is you
have to find customers who are willingto pay, who have the resources to pay,
who will pay those dollars, and I thinkthis is one place in the arts world You

(49:49):
can arguably find, you're gonna find the$275 willingness to pay mark for John
Denver, uh, you know, cover band because,'cause there's that person out there.
But I think, um, sometimes dynamicpricing people get angry about
it because, well, it feels like, it's gouging, things like that.
And , I would just say there, and youguys didn't talk about it, but I think
this is embedded , in the whole processhere is that healthy arts organizations

(50:11):
can do the other pieces too then.
Sure.
, They can promote- Totally … the moreobscure, more difficult, harder to reach,
smaller audience because they're healthy.
Right.
And, and they'll have content andprogramming across the spectrum that
they can provide to people of allsorts of different- Totally … l-
levels of, of willingness topay because they are healthy.
And so I just wanna make surewe don't miss that part, that
this is part of getting healthy.

(50:31):
Yeah.
It's like being clear about youraudience, being clear about what
the values are, and then makingsure , you assign , the right value.
That creates health.
It allows you to do a lot ofthings when you're not worrying
about how to keep the lights on.

Eric (50:41):
Yeah.
And it's not like they wanna sellfive $10,000 tickets- Right … and
have five people in the audience.
Right.
The, the point is, is to fill the room.
. Because the artists getsomething out of it.
Because- Yeah … thepatrons get more out of it.
You have more people, youhave more potential donors,
you have more everything.
And- Right … yeah, and also, yeah,right, if there's dynamic pricing,
well, then you buy a subscription andyou know the price is not dynamic.
You- Right … you get the cheapest price.

(51:02):
That's right.
Uh, sometimes it goes down.
You know, I suppose you couldkeep your eyes open for that.
But the point is that…
And you're right, organizations canmake tickets available to people who
can't afford to pay, , and they build arelationship in a way that it, it makes
it feel like there's value to it- Yeah… not like you're devaluing everything.
So- Right.

Kirk (51:18):
Right
… Eric: all of those things apply.
But, , if you cannot sell tickets andyou do not put people in the theater or
your auditorium or wherever, you're notgonna be an organization anymore, and
then you're not gonna have anything, so.
That's right.
That's right.
Well, so here it is, Eric Brownon his home turf with Sean
Kelly- … supporting the arts.
This is where your truejoy lies, and, uh- Pretty

Eric (51:39):
cool
… Kirk: that's great.
Vadic, dynamic pricing while you sleep.
Go check out what they'redoing at vadic.tech.
And, um, yeah, go find Sean on LinkedIn.
Sean's got a ton of greatLinkedIn content, and,
really, really fun to see it.
And Eric, my gosh, whata great conversation.
You're right, arts marketingapplicable to every aspect- There you
go … of our social change equation.
Totally.

(51:59):
Smart people teach us stuff no matterwhere they are and what they do.
That's that.
There

Kirk (52:03):
you go.
Sean, thanks for

Sean (52:05):
being on Let's Hear It.
Eric, thank you for doing that,and, , we'll see y'all next time.

Kirk (52:11):
Okay, everybody.
That's it for this episode.
Please let us know if you have anythoughts about what you heard today
or people we should have on this show,and that definitely includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAllee, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music.

Eric (52:25):
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation.

Kirk (52:28):
And please check out Lumina's terrific podcast, Today's Students,
Tomorrow's Talent, and you canfind that at luminafoundation.org.

Eric (52:35):
We certainly thank today's guest and of course, all of you.

Kirk (52:38):
And most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.

Eric (52:41):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Kirk (52:44):
Okay, everybody.
Till next time