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June 25, 2024 49 mins

This week's guest is Justin Jesudas.

As a good host should, I arrive at the online studio well in advance of my guests. It has nothing to do with tidying things but more to do with allowing my PC to get rolling.

And as luck has it, I always have time to turn on some tunes courtesy of Pandora. On the day of my recording with Justin, the first song that started pouring through my headphones was Time to Move On by Tom Petty on the Wildflowers album.

The opening stanza goes like this:

It's time to move on, it's time to get going What lies ahead, I have no way of knowing But under my feet, baby, grass is growing It's time to move on, time to get going

As I was reviewing my notes for Justin's show, it struck me that Petty's words fit the interview that I imagined. 

As you'll find in our discussion, Justin doesn't let grass grow under his feet or the wheels of his wheelchair. With him, it's always time to move on, time to get going.

Okay, Justin's always on the move. So what?

First, consider that he has won 18 gold medals in swimming. Next, consider his work with the Indian Institute of Technology in Madras (LINK). Then there's his crowning achievement: His two little kids.

Oh, did I mention that Justin is a quadriplegic?

Keep on keepin' on, Justin!

Note: Oftentimes, links are not available on platforms such as Apple, iHeart, etc.. They are available within this episode on our website at https://lifesaroadtrip.podbean.com

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Being disabled or having a chronic illness can feel like you're moving forward in reverse.

(00:21):
I'm your host Scott Martin.
Join me and my new friends in this underrepresented community as we talk about disrupting the
status quo and creating change within the world and within ourselves.
A life's a road trip.
Hop in.
Let's turn on some tunes and go.

(00:56):
With me in a passenger seat and managing the radio for this road trip is Justin D'Soures.
I've found the following on your Twitter, I think they call it X now, I don't understand
that.
Totally, but we'll just call it Twitter.
What he's doing with that, we don't know.
You're broken down into a few different parts here.
Quadraplagic, elite athlete in the morning, researcher by afternoon, and then peer counselor,

(01:21):
friend, and much more during the weekends.
Let's look at each one of those.
Quadraplagic, the last I found on you was 12 years ago.
I'm not sure of the timing on that.
How long has it been, Justin?
Now we could say it's been 13 years.
It was a car accident back in late 2009 and right after the accident when they took me

(01:48):
to the hospital, people told me that I'm going to be paralyzed, neck downwards for the rest
of my life.
And I think at that point, my reaction was like, okay, because I didn't know what it
means.
Okay.
Yeah, what else do you do?
All right.
Yeah, and I think the initial days are a little uncertain for me to understand my body

(02:09):
and what quadriplegia means, what a spinal cord injury means, not having motor control,
bowel control, bladder control, and all of those things.
So I think, yeah, that's how I became a quadriplegic.
And I'd probably say that my journey in the last 13 years has been much more interesting

(02:31):
than the first 29 years of my life before the accident.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
That's a good way of looking back in the rearview mirror and seeing how things go.
Let's talk about elite athlete in the morning.
Fill us in briefly.
Right.
So four years after my accident, I played basketball before my accident.

(02:54):
I've been a rifle shooter for a brief span of time.
But after my accident, I felt at least in the rehabilitation programs that I checked
in, nobody knew that persons with disability can play sports.
There are still millions of people in India who do not know that they can pursue sports.
So for me, initially it started off something like a fitness.

(03:16):
And I felt there was some potential when I started doing swimming.
I thought, okay, why not pursue this?
And that took me to a world championship, patient games, other international championships.
And I think today the confidence that I have is primarily because of sports as well.
We're going to dig into that because that's where something that really caught my eye when

(03:37):
I was researching you on, we have something in common there and we'll talk about it.
Research you by the afternoon.
Briefly.
What do you mean by that?
Yeah, for the last, I think two decades and about three years, it's always been about
research and analytics.
I've done corporate strategy consulting for companies, looking into markets, competitors.

(04:02):
So I've been researching on a lot of stuff.
But three years ago, I quit my corporate career and joined an engineering university, a research
lab there.
And these days I research on assistive technologies.
Okay.
Last one.
Pure counselor friend and much more during the weekends.

(04:24):
What is that entail?
Sure.
So I think based on understanding that I've had about spinal cord injury and about myself
in the last 13 years, I felt that there are several things that I'm able to do over a
period of time.
And when I look around, a lot of people with spinal cord injury are inside their homes,

(04:48):
do not come out.
There is no community participation in this group.
So I meet newly-injured spinal cord injury persons, talk to them and tell them what I
went through and how I came out of being inside the house, participating in the community,
doing different things, exploring life yet again.

(05:11):
Because I keep telling people there is a beautiful life after a spinal cord injury
or a paralysis.
And I know it because I'm living that.
So that's what I do in terms of peer counseling.
Pari like crazy with friends, but without disabilities, that doesn't matter.
And I think it's very important for us, despite a disability like that, for us to play all

(05:34):
the community roles.
It could be like a friend, a father, a son, a spouse, a citizen.
I think it's important for us to play all the community roles.
And I believe in them.
And I think that's what I mean by much more.
I usually come down to the basement.
I record in basement.

(05:55):
It's a house that was built in 1957.
It was originally lived in by professors.
And I just imagine what sort of parties that they would throw down here or what they might
have been smoking back in the 1960s.
But I get down and I set up the studio making sure everything levels are right and everything.
And then I usually end up pulling up Pandora.

(06:16):
And I started playing.
The first song that came up was Time to Move On.
It's from the Tom Petty's Well Flowers album.
And I had to stop because when that came up, I thought of you.
The opening lines are it's time to move on, time to get going.
It lies ahead.
I have no way of knowing.
But under my feet, baby grass is growing.

(06:37):
It's time to move on.
It's time to get going.
And that really, I think, nailed what I've learned about you.
It's going right from, oh, by the way, you're not going to be able to move major parts of
your body until where you are right now.
We're going to save that.
We're going to be talking about that.

(06:58):
But I think it really hit home, man.
It's just wild that that came up.
Because I from now on, anytime I hear that song, I want to be thinking to you, Justin.
I mean, it's just crazy.
So let's talk about athletics.
And those people might not have read about me and stuff.
Back in 1993, I had finished my first year of coaching at the college, coaching soccer

(07:19):
at the college level.
And I was heading over to Europe.
And our team was ranked nationally.
And Nike gave me a call and said, hey, we want you to come down to one of our regional
camps and talk to the athletes.
Okay, this is great.
But it's there.
It became sick.
And I ended up waking up basically, I'll shorten it, a month later to find that, by the way,

(07:40):
you have no hands and parts and no, you know, both feet are gone.
And the doctor attending physician, they're told me, if you weren't an athlete, there's
no way in heck you would have lived.
Because I was still in training because I would go over to Europe and do some playing
it also.
So let's talk about athletics.

(08:01):
What have you learned about the correlation between becoming severely disabled and athletics?
Let's come to you.
Yeah.
So as I said, you know, I picked up active sports, physical sports primarily because
I wanted to focus on fitness for me.
I think waking up every day in the first two, two and a half years of my life, starting

(08:26):
at the ceiling and not being able to do anything.
And the body completely is frozen and being spastic.
I just wanted to change that.
And I was getting sick and tired of that.
And you know, two and a half years down, it was a very startling revelation for me.
Two revelations actually.
One is there were people around me, parents, spouse, all the time, you know, trying to

(08:51):
help me.
And that's great.
That's, you know, I'm grateful for the fantastic support system.
But I also realized that I wasn't living my life and I wasn't letting them live their
life either.
And I wanted to change that narrative.
And that was one.
Two, why am I focusing on something that I don't have absolutely any control over?

(09:14):
You know, the prognosis for a spinal cord injury is always poor.
And despite knowing that in the first two years, let's, you know, hope is great and
that's all fine.
But I think you've got to do what you've got to do.
So that, you know, that moment where I felt that I should focus on things that I can control,
which are my shoulders, biceps, triceps is compromised, this is compromised, no finger

(09:40):
function at all.
So what I said to myself is come what me, if I have to, you know, tie my hands onto a
gym equipment and, you know, do some weight training, resistance training, I'm going to
do that.
And when I started doing that, nothing happened in the first week, first month or three months
time.
For the first time, I was able to, you know, move from the bed to wheelchair using a wooden

(10:05):
plank by myself.
Now that kind of opened up, you know, a completely different perspective that, hey, you can still
focus on things that you have in fact, and, you know, go about your life in a very small
way.
That, you know, one thing led to another.
When I said to myself, I need to pursue some sport for my physical stamina and fitness.

(10:29):
And when that happened, and when I consistently started doing that, I think in three, four
months time, I signed up for the state championship, one medals and all of that.
But I think what was more important for me was beyond all of those medals, the experience
of being able to do that again.
That's one.
And to do way better than, you know, what I could imagine.

(10:56):
And the entire journey is so, so relishing because going to the game, civil legend, different
games, Asian games, the world championship, meeting other athletes, the enormous amount
of confidence that it gives you to show what is rightfully yours.
I think that that's the connect for me between sports and disability.
You know, I just highlighted on my notes, I'm going to title this thing, time to move

(11:21):
on that Tom Petty song I just mentioned, because that's where you're going with this.
And damn, if that didn't nail it, I really, I want to bring up something, Justin.
I found a photo of you.
You're in a, you're upside down in a tripod position with your top of your head down and
then your hand.
So you've got a tripod three points of support.

(11:45):
How the hell, I'll finish this for the folks.
So he's upside down, folks.
And he had major spinal cord injury.
And I'm thinking, how in the hell are you doing this?
Because of all the pressure from gravity, if not you not being able to stay stable, how
much the muscles in your back are being used to keep your stability.

(12:08):
But, but how can I, I just don't understand it.
How did you get to the point of being able to, to be that strong, I guess?
Is it in the head?
Not literally, but is it, is it you being able to get over things or you just got to
the point of strength to be able to control things, as you said, in your shoulders?
Yeah.

(12:29):
No, I think it's called air yoga.
So there is a little bit of support for your lower body for, you know, hip below from that
fabric that you get.
Okay.
So it makes a little bit of your weight.
But yeah, for your upper body, you still have to, you know, kind of support yourself.
So it's kind of, you know, yeah, I think I was able to do it for about four, five minutes

(12:54):
and repeatedly for about three, four times.
I believe in this, right?
All things are difficult before they become easy.
So I think if you keep trying things on and on and again, there's no other option, but
for things to become easy.
So when did you come to that conclusion?
Was that before the accident or after the accident?

(13:20):
Maybe I believed in it before the accident, but the realization really happened only after
the accident.
Okay.
That is freaking amazing how these crappy things can happen to us in life, but they
also open up other doors or open up in this case, for sure, your mind to something and
your spirit to something as well.
All right.

(13:41):
So let's keep talking about athletics and what you've done.
Okay.
Swimming.
Let's go to the beginning.
And I read something about you the first time you went to the swimming pool.
You first of all had to talk some people into taking you to the swimming pool.
How the heck did you do that or were they just going, uh huh.
Okay, Justin, we'll go try because that's what you want to do.
How did you get them to take you?

(14:02):
I guess this is crazy.
Yeah, because, see, I didn't know a quadriplegic and swim.
At that point, I didn't watch any videos or anything at that point.
I just wanted to swim because deep inside I said to myself, Hey, when you're inside water,
your gravity assisted.
And I think that's something you should definitely try.

(14:25):
And I still remember that drive from my home to the swimming quadriplegics, about 18 kilometers
took about half an hour or so.
Scared as hell inside.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What the hell?
I kept saying to myself, um, uh, as long as you hold your breath, you're not going to

(14:48):
drown.
So if there is any difficult circumstance, okay, probably you can just hold your breath
for a brief point in time and maybe someone will pick you up.
Yeah.
All right.
So I did.
I also read.
So there was a lifeguard there with was, was it the pool made aware that here comes this
guy.
It might drown.
Were they made aware first or was it okay?

(15:10):
No, no, I, I go there and I tell them, Hey, I want to swim.
And they look at me in a wheelchair and like, how would you swim?
I don't know, but I just want to get into the water.
And that was a moment where like, okay, but how do we go about this?
I said, just get me to the water and let's see what happens.

(15:31):
Okay.
And they were like, okay, let's put a floater around you and we'll put you inside the water.
And let's see, uh, you know, how that goes.
I said, okay, because I wanted to get inside the water and then probably after a point
in time, take the floater off or something or that.
And then I get inside and a floater does its job, right?

(15:52):
It keeps you afloat and for five minutes, 10 minutes and it started becoming boring.
I told them, listen, take this out and let's see what happens.
And they were like, no, it's not safe.
No, why don't you get inside the water just from my safe, five minutes, not more than
that.
If I find it difficult, I'm going to get out and I'll be responsible about it.

(16:13):
And then a lifeguard got inside.
They took the floater.
It seemed like the longest breath that I was holding for the longest point in time.
And I was like, took the deepest breath.
And then I found myself floating, although the legs were like, you know, kind of dropping
inside the lower body, but I was still afloat.
And the more I tried to, you know, put my head up backwards, I was floating.

(16:38):
And then I started, you know, taking short breaths and then inhaling and holding it for
a longer time, release some air and then again hold it.
And I was fine.
And I told them, see, this is working, you know, if you're worried about me, you can
probably move around with me a little bit.
But I'm trying to, you know, going to do this backstroke in a very awkward way, because

(17:00):
for the last three years before that, I've not really, you know, stretched my shoulders
or rotated my shoulders and all of that in a very awkward way.
I started doing that.
And I think that was the start of the journey in terms of absolute freedom, in terms of
what I wanted to do.
That led one thing after the other into competitions.
I felt there is potential there started doing proper physical fitness and training in a sports

(17:24):
science center to the national games, to the international championships and qualifying
for the world championship, patient games.
I think it got one after the other.
I don't know how it went like that.
Maybe in the hindsight, I can say in about a year and a half, whatever I achieved going,
you know, from being nothing zero in terms of swimming, because I didn't know swimming

(17:49):
before my accident.
I learned it after that.
This is really strange, Justin.
Only after the first time when I went to the pool, then I got interested about this, started
looking at YouTube and all of that.
And okay, maybe this is a person with a neck down paralysis swims and all.
And I figured little by little.

(18:10):
And in Chennai or in India for that matter, that point in time, there was no, nobody who
could coach a person with a neck down paralysis.
That was the other challenge that I had to face.
That's primarily because they didn't understand the disability.
They've never trained a person with a disability to a swim.

(18:31):
And secondly, my age at that point was 34.
And back here, if you're 34 and you're trying to swim, you're not a mental potential at
all because of probably age or whatever it is.
So YouTube became my coach.
I want to do something to release some of the tension on the listeners.

(18:54):
How many medals have you won?
It must be about 25, 30.
Okay.
This is nuts, man.
And they're all gold.
Most of them are gold, yes.
Okay.
So we're going to take so people can sit back up in their chair now after hearing that.
And I want to go back to what were these medals won when you were doing the backstroke

(19:18):
because it sounded like.
That's right.
You're doing the backstroke.
Because you're a primary stroke.
So even in freestyle, I do backstroke.
How do you turn around when you get to the end to white?
So when I see the flag, I know it's five meters on the number of strokes.
And my hand hits the wall, push that slightly and then turn around.

(19:42):
So at an angle to be able to turn around and that's slowing you down.
And it probably ticks you off because you're that type of person.
But we found, damn, I've got to make this faster.
I've got to make the turn faster.
That seems like that's the part that would slow you down.
Yeah.
So you've got to adjust because what's come out of this is there's a freaking very extremely
competitive person inside of you.

(20:04):
Or was it?
Let me let me go back a little bit.
Was it getting in the pool for the first time that you did truly feel weightless and therefore
maybe your mind had a moment to relax?
Yes, absolutely.
The first time when I went to the water and when they took off the floater, you know,

(20:26):
to start with to even hold that ladder, I partially hug it.
And that was like the first time by myself, I was able to be in a vertical position after
my accident.
Because until then, you know, you're always in the bed sitting in the wheelchair.
Oh man.
Yeah.
Or, you know, in the rehabilitation setup, they put you on a tilt table and then they

(20:48):
tried to tilt it.
It's all supported and somebody does it.
This is the first time after accident, after three years, I'm getting into that position
and I was like, oh wow, this is nice.
This feels nice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like because I was in the same position again, losing your independence and depending on
others was less.
I'm going to save the word guilt for a while.

(21:12):
So let's look inside.
You said two and a half years, basically, you're on your back.
Yeah.
Especially being a male.
That is extremely tough.
And you talked about and I found a couple of quotes specifically you said, I'm not living
my life fully and not letting my family live theirs either.
Why am I still focused on things that are no longer in control, the lower body forms

(21:36):
of fingers instead, why not focus on shoulders and biceps.
So it seemed like that's where, so did you start focusing on your shoulders and biceps
before you went into the pool?
Yes, I did.
Okay.
So that allowed you the strength.
What was the reason for starting to focus on your shoulders and biceps?
Because they were in perfect control.

(21:57):
I could still control there.
Okay.
So it was something that you could gain back.
Yeah.
And you could man, that must have felt great.
As you, yeah, as you continue to increase weights and things like that, you just ate
it up.
And yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about.

(22:19):
I want to bring up a quote you said.
These realizations, this is coming off the realizations that you're, we just talked
about, transform me from being completely dependent to interdependent to being completely
independent and now raising, hang on folks, here we go.
Toddler twins who are completely dependent on us.

(22:41):
Did you have any kids before the accident?
No, no.
This is, you're even deeper than I thought, man, you, you're like a really deep pool.
I'm finding.
So after you got into the accident, it's like, oh yeah, this would be a great thing for me
to do now is to become a father.

(23:05):
I take it, you were past any guilt issues by that.
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
So let me bring up guilt issues, but they, I would think that they would come up again
because I raised five adopted kids from different countries, but I'll tell you this,
they all came home after the diaper stage.
Let's go back to talking about guilt, my friend.

(23:28):
What about during the diaper stage?
Did you happen to not be able to change the diapers that day or did you have to move forward
with it anyway?
Yeah.
So the initial days were tough because I didn't get a hang of.
Yeah.
But then, you know, for me often when there is a challenge in front of me, as I said,

(23:52):
you know, it's, it's going, I know for a fact that it's going to be difficult, but instead
of, you know, giving up or getting, you know, awfully worried about it, I think if I focus
on how I can actually crack it, how I can actually do it, it could be, you know, using
any technology or just even if I have to do it in a clumsy manner, that's fine.

(24:14):
As long as, as long as I do it, as simple as that.
So, so I think over a period of time, I figured out how to do things, you know, how to manage
all of those things as well.
But the first three, four months was tough.
I'll bet.
And how old are kids right now?
Four and a half.

(24:35):
Okay.
So they're obviously they're getting into walking in things and how have you, have you
gone through any phases of, I'm not a normal looking dad.
Have you, has that hit you at all or doesn't it bother you at all anymore?
I think that could be possibly flashes of that thought, but it's never in permanence.

(24:59):
It probably stays for a few seconds.
And I just say, you know, there's no point in thinking about it, because there's nothing
that I can do about it.
You know, my daughter, for instance, now not as much, but a year and a half back or year
back, she'll come and dad, get up, stand.
Why are you not standing?

(25:21):
Come with me.
Okay.
Let's go walk.
And I'll be like, I'll try to explain.
But at that point, she was like, no, it doesn't matter.
You have to curve.
But these days, it's like, listen, what's the goal really?
You want to go and play in the park?
Let's go.
You walk.
I roll.
Okay.
Got it.
Let me go.
Yeah.

(25:42):
I, you know, in raising my five, I don't think there was at any time that they ever make
a point of me not being, quote, normal or being able to do things.
It's interesting how the kids at a younger age, they get it and they don't think too
much about it.

(26:03):
And it's going to be interesting as your kids get a little bit older to see how those
things do might come up, where they might realize.
I mean, my kids had to swing a hammer for me at times.
But I'd always try to figure out a way to do it anyway.
And sometimes I broke one of my prosthetic cans, but I didn't give a rip because I just
wanted to do it.
But there might be times when they're going to have to get up on the counter to get something

(26:26):
because you might not be able to in the kitchen and things.
But trust me, they're going to already know they'll know your limitations and they'll
appreciate them.
But yeah, there are times especially growing up as a male that it's just ingrained in us
on what, you know, and that's where it's stuck.
So you're talking about solving problems.

(26:47):
I want to now get into your work in the research lab at the Indian Institute of Technology
in Madras.
Okay.
I want to bring up something to you because I always get into really digging into and finding
out information about my guests.
And I think we already saw the thread that I believe runs through you that kind of was

(27:08):
there in your life prior to becoming disabled and has really popped out since then.
So I think we've got that part.
But in Indian Institute of Technology on their website, on the first page, and I stopped
after I saw this.
Images that are scrolling from right to left across and each image has a point to it.

(27:32):
And I think it was a second or maybe third image that came across when I opened it up.
It said incubating minds.
When I read that, I stopped.
Okay.
I'm intrigued by this so much.
I don't want to know about it by reading it.
I want to come to you and talk about it just as our listeners are finding about it, about

(27:53):
it as well.
Tell us about what you're doing with this group that is incubating minds.
Absolutely.
So this research center was founded by Professor Sujata Srinivasan about seven, eight years
back.
I've known this group for the last 10 years or so.
But at that point as a user, as a potential user, and at a later point as a design consultant

(28:18):
from a user perspective to create user centric designs and all of that.
But only in the last three years back, an equipment corporate career, they had an opportunity
and I said, hey, why not?
Let's work together.
Because for me, the transition was very important because I value the potential of technology,

(28:39):
assistive technologies.
For a person who's neck down paralysis, if they can drive a car, if they can travel the
world alone by themselves, it's all because of the appropriate technology.
And it's not just important to have one Justin like this, but create more Justin's and more
of my friends who are working together who have a disability like that so that we can

(29:00):
change people's life and there is more community participation.
Because there's an awful lot of people in India and I'm sure in other countries as well,
especially the low and middle-income countries who don't even come out at all.
And for us, it was like, how do we change that?
And that's exactly what the vision and mission of RTOT2 Centre as well was.

(29:24):
How can we create assistive technologies that inspire ability among people in the community?
As simple as that.
That's the vision really there.
And then we talk about increasing their quality of life, their participation in different things
and basically create a flatter world where everybody feels there is an opportunity for them.

(29:46):
And we're putting that equity in place.
So that's how we started.
Because our strength lies in mechanical engineering and this research centre is part of the mechanical
engineering department, we've stuck to our strengths and we play with mobility-related
issues, human body mechanisms, how it works and what are the different problem statements

(30:10):
that are out there where we can research on.
And then finally, more importantly for us, all of this research should not just stay
as academic projects, but should actually go into the community to the end user so that
they can benefit out of all of these efforts.
So we operate in a model called the GRID model where G stands for grants, VDAs grants, R stands

(30:32):
for research which we do independently or in collaboration with other universities, I stands
for industry partners.
So in the entire journey, we can design and develop.
But if there is no partner to commercialise this who can market it and mass manufacture
it, then everything remains as a lab project.
So we onboard a partner and then D stands for dissemination because creating awareness across

(30:55):
users, across rehabilitation professionals, policy makers is very important, especially
in the low and middle-income countries.
So that's the way we operate.
We develop mobility devices that can have significant impact in people's life, has
that scale, has that innovation and more importantly affordability as well because that's very important.

(31:21):
You mentioned something that threw up a red flag to me.
How many projects actually have gone through the entire process and are now out for public
consumption?
Do you have any?
Yeah, yeah, four products are out there commercially available.
Some of the products, thousands of devices have been already sold, rigid high performance

(31:47):
wheelchair and a clip-on device that can convert the wheelchair into a road-worthy scooter.
That's all there.
Yeah, a standing wheelchair which is something that we developed in the last few years and
it retails at about say about $300, $350, something equivalent to that in the US or

(32:08):
Western Europe.
We're talking about $3,000, $4,000.
Okay.
So that doesn't seem out of range.
Why is this the first I've heard of this and is it actually being mass produced?
Yes, yes.
In the last two years, a few hundred devices have been sold.

(32:29):
We've given license to two different manufacturers.
Pretty soon it's going to go out to markets outside India as well.
Okay.
All right.
And how many projects do you think that you guys have in the works, so to speak?
About nine products in the pipeline under development and our goal really is to, at the very least,

(32:52):
commercialize and put out in the market at least one device every year.
I take it, you're in the lab and they probably come to you for experiential testing because
of your situation and that's important.
Do you stay with a project?

(33:13):
How far do you stay with the project through the process?
Yeah.
So we are about 40 people in our group, which comprises of researchers, PhD scholars, engineering
students, engineers, rehabilitation professionals who include physical therapists and occupational
therapists and there is a group of users as well.

(33:36):
So anything that is related to wield mobility solutions, I'm heavily involved, you know,
pretty much end to end, right from conceptualization to identifying industry partner and seeing
the entire process.
But if it's something to do with prosthetics and orthotics, you know, a little bit of insights
here and there and probably, you know, a little bit of project management support.

(33:58):
But otherwise, you know, the appropriate user, you know, sees through or goes through their
entire journey along with engineers and rehabilitation professionals.
So that's that's all.
The more I'm doing the show, I'm learning about process and how to get things to the market.
And that seems to be both the biggest damn hurdle and also what can make something actually

(34:21):
happen.
I want to talk a little bit about back in, I say 2010, people from Johns Hopkins, well,
back up a little bit as more and more amputees came back to the United States military, came
back, it became apparent to those in the Senate and Congress, the people are being voted in

(34:44):
and out of offices that we need to do something because this doesn't look good.
All these amputees and what are they able to get out of things.
So they threw a bunch of money out into the research area kind of like what you guys
are doing just through a bunch of money out there and said here, go come up with some
things that will make the amputees.

(35:05):
I'm just paraphrasing look less ampute as an amputee.
I got a call from Johns Hopkins because I've been using by that time, 18, maybe 20 years
using bilateral myroelectric hands.
So Johns Hopkins was doing research for these myroelectric hands that had individually moving

(35:30):
fingers.
Okay, and we've heard about these.
I remember watching on 60 minutes.
So I went out and they asked me at that time, it was just in the phase, it was here, put
me on some probes on my arms and could I make these things work theoretically on a computer.
We had no problem.
So I came back the next day and they wanted to do some more.

(35:51):
It's like, okay, I helped them prove a point before they went to the manufacturing stage
and the next stage in testing.
But I remember talking with the lead on this.
I said, you better make damn sure that these things continue working because there are
so many moving parts.
And these guys are coming back with such poor insurance that one breaks, it takes me

(36:15):
two and a half months to get a hand back after it breaks.
I can only imagine, I don't want to imagine how long it would take these things to be
repaired to come back.
So after I said that, I never heard from them again.
I brought up a negative to them and they didn't want to hear it.
So it sounds like you actually are, you're working with people that have good relationships

(36:42):
with manufacturers.
I'm being able to get some things up.
So I'm thankful and I'm glad to hear that somebody doesn't have to go through the bullshit
that so many of these other people have had.
You're chuckling in the background.
I see that.
So do you come up up against some of this red tape and the manufacturer is actually saying,

(37:04):
well, we're not sure about this.
What are your hassles that you run into, Justin?
Yeah, I think the good thing is there's a very good set process and as I said, Prasujatha
has done a fantastic job in terms of setting up all of this.
We have a very good design journey and if I have to briefly talk about it, it all starts

(37:26):
from a problem statement.
Just because we're an engineering university, the solution does not come first.
That still happens.
Some of our engineers come and say, hey, I have this idea.
It's a fantastic idea and I'm like, I'm pretty sure it's a fantastic idea.
But who's going to use it?
What is the use for it?
I think that needs to connect and that's very important.

(37:50):
So we start with problem statement.
We see where does a problem occur?
How does it occur?
How often does it occur?
In what situations, who phases it?
Who are the stakeholders that are connected, not necessarily the person with the disability,
but people around it as well.
And we try to map all of it and we don't believe in just creating surveys and asking
people for answers, but go and spend a day in their life and see how it expands.

(38:16):
There you go.
Yeah, that happens and that takes easily about two to three months or even more because
if you nail that right, it's almost half the work done.
And then we ask people to conceptualize, come up with few concepts and then validate
and usually what happens is the very first prototype proof of concept that people develop
is what we call dirty but functional prototype.

(38:40):
Go to the workshop, pick up all the scram that you have.
It doesn't have to look good.
It just needs to work.
Let's see the proof of concept.
Exactly.
If it works and if the specifications and features that you have, even if you touch
him 60% of it, great.
Then we go put some money in it and then we develop the first prototype, which looks
good, which has about 70, 80% of features that we want to do and then the engineer

(39:05):
tests it, persons without disability in a controlled environment, they tested and all
of that and they're fine with it.
It goes through computer simulations, finite element analysis and all of that.
Then we also put it in mechanical testing.
We have our own testing rigs.
In India, there are no testing standards for wheelchairs yet, but we have testing rigs
that comply to ISO standards so that it's to international standards.

(39:29):
Wheelchairs are lifted and dropped for 6,666 times, 200,000 cycles of double drum tests.
This is for the wheelchairs.
For prosthesis, three million cycles of the stress test.
We make sure it all goes through all of that and then we put it in the hands of users in
a controlled environment.
They give feedback.

(39:50):
User trials are done.
We come back to the design room and further refine it.
Then we go back and say, hey, this is refined to all your needs.
Now it's okay.
If they say, yes, it is all okay.
If it's passed the computer simulation, the destructive testing, everything, then we say,
okay, now we are ready to license it.
That's the journey.

(40:12):
That should be the process.
I'll finish my story with two years later, my prosthesis that I was seeing gave me one
of these hands to try.
All the movable fingers and stuff.
I got it to work pretty well.
Within a week, it fried.
These were being manufactured and sold and going through insurance companies.

(40:34):
The electronics fried and the prosthesis company dropped me because they said that I was abusive.
I was using it to study myself as I got off of a treadmill.
Anyway, it stopped working.
I want to finish our talk up by a quote I found from a very wise man.
This guy said, I believe that as human beings, we're intelligent creatures and have the ability

(40:58):
to adapt to any situation.
I'm with what you've been saying.
All we have to do is drop this attitude of why me and things will be a lot different.
The most important thing to do is live our lives, come out of your confines.
That's what you were saying earlier.
Come out of your confines and believe that you can be independent.
I think this is a big thing with you.

(41:20):
I feel the same way.
What we are is the new normal.
Who was that wise man?
There's a quick test for you.
Who was that wise man?
It was you.
It's you.
It's interesting because I'm reading this at the end and so many of these pieces could

(41:45):
easily be fit back into how the show progressed before we were talking.
You got it.
It's so true, right?
Imagine if every single person in this world was born with paralysis and they had to use
wheelchairs.
Life would have been so normal for everybody.
Just because you acquired it in between shouldn't stop your life.

(42:06):
I think there's more to life.
One single incident should not change the course of your life.
There could be learnings from it.
I think you need to move on.
I think you should always strive to live a life to the fullest.
That's the most important thing.
I think those are very wise words and that takes us to the sound of the VW Beetle means

(42:28):
it's time to shift gears and get into the road trip roundup.
Justin, I'm going to throw you five questions.
These are related to your experiences with road trips.
You've been doing fine so far.
When road tripping, do you tend to do fast food or local diners?
Neither.
I just carry food from home.

(42:50):
All I do is even if it's a ten hour drive, I just stop for five, ten minutes quickly
have my food and start driving.
What do you want to race or something?
It sounds like you're doing 24 hours a day long.
There are a few reasons for it.
One, I live in a place where it's extremely warm for majority of the year.

(43:14):
Nine to ten months, it's going to be about 35 degrees centigrade plus.
This is really warm.
As a person with spinal cord injury, I can't bring it in body temperature.
The more I stop somewhere, my body temperature increases to the extent of it.
I can't bring it down.
Unless I know absolutely there is a place where I can stop and it's going to be relatively

(43:39):
cool and I can chill out for some time.
I usually prefer just driving through from point A to point B, wherever I have to go.
When I drive in the month of November, December and January, I just stop wherever I want to
enjoy the scenic beauty and all of that.

(44:02):
All of those things happen.
But yeah, usually I just zip past.
So let's look at question number two as if it were those better months.
What would be your dream car for a road trip?
Wow.
Certainly a Mustang.
Name the era.

(44:23):
You're talking about 60s?
You're talking about the electrics now.
The 60s?
Really?
64.
All right.
So there's two way.
Let me break that down there, buddy.
So you're talking about 64, 65, maybe in a 66 when they just had smaller engines.
Are you talking about 68, 69 and 71?
The mock series was I mean, the big.

(44:45):
Yeah, the mock series actually is.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Learn something about you.
You're crazy, man.
So make sure it has air conditioning so you can regulate the body tap.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
Here we go.
Let's be able to answer this question.
We'll see.
Laskasett or CD that played while you were on a road trip or driving from one place or

(45:08):
another.
Last cassette or CD.
It's now going to be an English song.
It's going to be my little mother tongue song, Tamil song.
You know, we have a musician here.
It goes by the name, L'Eraja and his tunes are like fantastic.

(45:29):
You know, I enjoy those romantic songs, the tunes that come out of him.
Yeah.
I think that's the last CD that I listened to.
Totally okay.
Not everybody has to listen to Tom Petty all the time.
Okay.
Straight up.
Coke or Pepsi?
Me then.
Water.
You just, you are such a simplistic down to earth guy.

(45:53):
Okay.
But I know what's inside of you now, but you want to go out there at times and kick some
bass.
We know that.
You just want to, we're going to solve this problem.
We're going to do it and we're going to get it done and then we're going to move on
to the next one.
So I know that's inside of you.
Okay.
Water.
And food that I bring myself.
You're so serene, but damn it, I know you must be in the lab and you get, you must get

(46:17):
in the lab with an idea and you don't stop until you get to a certain point where you
could finally walk away and say, that's done.
I'll come back tomorrow.
Right?
Is it tough to get you to leave or you're constantly looking at you watch when can I
leave?
No, I don't look at the watch when can I think so.
You could focus on it and you won't let go.
All right.
Cool.

(46:38):
All right.
Last one.
This is whatever you want to get into.
What's your favorite road trip memory?
Now this could be before the accident after the accident.
It's up to you, man.
Not putting any pressure on you.
There are lots of road trip memories.
Pick one.
I just enjoy driving, but this one particular thing, you know, for the very first time I
did about 12 hour road trip completely by myself with my car completely packed with

(47:04):
household stuff because I was moving from Hyderabad to Chennai and drove by myself.
Family was like crazy scared because what happens if it breaks down in such a long trip?
Yeah.
Justin.
I just had to do it.
There you go.
You had to do it.
You just had to do it.

(47:25):
There you go.
That guy, but just serene with his sandwich and his water.
Okay.
All right.
Hey, we're wrapping this thing up.
This has been fun.
We're wrapping this thing up and I want to stick on and talk with you a bit.
This show might not go out.
We're recording this and oh, yeah, kind of mid August.
This might not go out until October because I'm taking a bit of a break and doing pick

(47:49):
and choose interviews as I get ready for the school year to start because I substitute
teach at least and do soccer stuff.
We are going to stay on.
I'm going to hit stop for everybody, but I just want to say challenge relax everyone
and keep listening to life's road trip.

(48:10):
Thanks for listening.
Check out previous episodes with new ones dropping each Tuesday.
If you don't see a synopsis of this show where you're listening, visit our website
at life's roadtrip.podbean.com for more information on this week's guest.
This is your host Scott Martin reminding you that life's a road trip.
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