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August 14, 2024 47 mins

This week's guests are Carla Birnberg and Catherine Njeri.

They did it! Carla was on the show a year ago as we discussed the concept of the Upili project. Well, like the famous words of Wilbur Wright to his brother, "The damn thing really does fly, Orville!"

Okay, maybe that wasn't said.

But Upili has taxied the runway and is in the air.

Visit https://www.upili.org and book a flight.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Being disabled or having a chronic illness can feel like you're moving forward in reverse.

(00:21):
I'm your host Scott Martin.
Join me and my new friends in this underrepresented community as we talk about disrupting the
status quo and creating change within the world and within ourselves.
A life's a road trip.
Hop in.
Let's turn on some tunes and go.

(00:56):
Both me and the passenger state in managing the radio for this road trip are Carla Burnberg
and Katherine Jirogi.
Carla is back on life's road trip because she's part of a program that moved from crawling
to up and running.
The pride and joy is called Oopili.
We're going to take a deep dive into Oopili, but first let's get to know Carla and Katherine
a little bit.

(01:17):
Carla, you've been on the show before, as I said, and we keep in touch every once in
a while.
You fill me in on what's going on with the program and things.
Give us a quick rundown on your background, what you've been bopping around doing, where
are you at this moment?
So happy to be back.
I mean, I put that on LinkedIn.
I love your podcast, so I'm so glad to be back.

(01:38):
I am in sweltering Austin, Texas right now, not in Nairobi.
I have been working in East Africa for about almost five years now.
I've been with a for-profit, working with culture and inclusion, doing marketing, and
then transitioned over to Next Step Foundation, where I'm the chief storyteller, which is

(02:03):
still sort of marketing the work we do.
I like that tag.
I said, why?
I mean, it's amplifying the voices and keeping mine out.
And for a while, I was simply doing that for the participants with the foundation, and
then it has been such a process, like with any new endeavor, started the Upili program,

(02:25):
which looked so different.
It was July 10th is the date that I had when we spoke last, and it's now the maybe the
11th, but a year ago it looked so different.
I know, just you get me flowers.
No, they're on their way.
How's that?
So that's what we're doing here, lady, is I want to find out what has happened, and

(02:49):
that takes us to Catherine, who's now the second in here.
And Catherine obviously is the first time we've had a chat, but fill us in on your experience
and what got you to this point and working with this crazy lady.
And where are you right now?
Because there's three of us in different parts of the world.
So go ahead, Catherine.

(03:10):
It's all yours.
Yeah.
So my name is Catherine.
I am a clinical psychologist and also a counselor in the Upili project.
I'm currently in Murana in Kenya in a village called Gachondo.
So I started working with Cara.
I'm enjoying the all the process.

(03:33):
I'm the counselor who deals with the student in school.
We do group counseling.
We also do person knowing at time when it's in the dance.
So we hold those students.
I work with them.
I'm also a person living with disability and also a counselor.
So therefore, we match.

(03:55):
We like we are able to interrupt better because the students are in their adolescence stage.
So and I'm also now an adult.
So I'm able to work through this process of acceptance, of disability and also reminding
them that even though they are person, they are disabled, they are person living with

(04:18):
disability, they can be able to achieve more.
Yeah.
I'm also able to model for them to see that life can be sweet.
Also even if you are person living with disability, you can enjoy.
You are not limited.
Life is sweet.
Life is good.
So that is basically what we do.
We look at their self-esteem.

(04:41):
We want to rain their self-esteem.
Want them to when they go outside there, they are able to interrupt and be strong and be
and enjoy life like any other person and or even more.
Like, you know, I think the aim is to make them see disability as uniqueness, not like
disability, disability like you are not able but to see themselves as unique people who

(05:07):
are in the world to be great.
You mentioned acceptance and in Kenya, I wonder, I suppose that it's different than the social
pressures that are here in the United States.
Carla, obviously being an Indian, a US citizen is aware of it.

(05:28):
I'm hoping that it's different there and in other parts of the world because here there's
such a terrible negative stigma on it that the way you just present more casually acceptance.
I hope that that's the case.
Now, I oftentimes will do a lot of research and sometimes run the show off of a group

(05:54):
or a person's or an organization's website.
And I went to the Wupili website and by the way, folks, it's spelled U-P-I-L-I.
Again, it's U-P-I-L-I.org, not.com or anything, U-P-I-L-I.org.
On there, on the lower half of the home page, I noticed something, it's a hand painted sign.

(06:17):
It looks like it's on the campus or meeting area or something.
Again, it really struck me and it says, in a gentle way, you can shake the world.
Now, that's planting a strong, small seed in people and that's kind of what we're trying
to do with the show too and having you guys on and talking about this in a gentle way,

(06:39):
you can shake the world.
You too banter on that.
I mean, where did heck did that come from?
And is that really the base for the U-P-I-L-I project?
I hope to say first that I am such a fan of that.
Like, I tell her this all the time that I will never forget the first time we met.
She's brilliant.
She's highly trained.

(07:00):
She's phenomenal with the students, but she's also charismatic and really funny.
I don't know if you remember the first time we met, it was at a restaurant.
It was coming from Doy Town School, I believe, which is where we did the pilot.
And I was super late, which is never me.
And I've got that American I need to be early.

(07:21):
And so I showed up and there's Catherine I have never met.
And she's sitting there.
I don't know if you remember this.
And I said, I am so sorry.
And she said without missing a beat, yeah, I've been here so long that they think I work here
now as the manager.
I love her.
Just a little, I know it's tough on a podcast.

(07:42):
There's no video.
This project, I mean, it has all snapped into place.
When you and I met a year ago, it was smaller.
It was almost like that sign.
It was just planting of a seed.
When I went to, we met in July, I went to Kenya for a month in September.

(08:03):
And on that flight over, if you would have asked me what I was doing,
I would have said, oh, it's the APPLY project.
We go to Kenyan special schools for students with disabilities and offer one-on-one counseling.
With hindsight, I think, why did we ever think that would work?
Even forgetting the scalability, it's the, and I'm curious, Catherine's insights too,

(08:28):
you plant a seed one-on-one and maybe it'll grow, but you plant a seed in a group setting.
And these students know each other, but not, again, this is Catherine,
in this vulnerable way, it feels like.
And they begin sharing and they think, oh, I see most
of this every day at school, I didn't know he feels like I do.

(08:50):
Yeah.
So that, she was the biggest shift from a year ago when we realized, oh, no, it's groups.
And then I'll kind of hand it off to you, Catherine, because we ended up separating the
students out by gender and that seed that gets planted grows so much more swiftly when it's
in that group setting.

(09:13):
Yeah.
Interesting.
I like how you handle that.
And it's a broad base with the concepts.
Let's back up a little bit.
What does the name Ubi-li mean?
Where did it come from?
Is there a specific?
Is that a word that has a meaning or is made up of something or what?

(09:34):
Secondary.
Secondary.
Because we go into the secondary schools in Kenya.
Okay.
And our logo, which, I mean, I want everyone to go to the website,
and read the blog post and then throw all of their money at us.
But before you do that, when you look at the logo, no, that's it.

(09:57):
Read the post.
But we designed the logo and the name kind of in partnership.
So when we're in Kenya and talking to fricking funders in general, they recognize the word.
But the logo is designed to be reminiscent of the Pixar movie, which, of course, my team
already made up.

(10:19):
Okay.
And so we've got the wheelchair and the balloon.
So it's that mix.
Very good.
Very good.
I like that.
I like that because it's you've got to make a first, a grand first impression in order to
be moving forward.
So now let's get into a little bit more of your area, Catherine, with a simple question.
What does the program do?

(10:41):
What do you do with this?
What we do now we started and what we do.
You see the school, you have so many students and we decided to do the principal and the
counselor.
There's a counselor teacher through the principal and the counselor.
They helped us to choose the students.

(11:04):
You see, like in group therapy, you don't come up with a huge number.
So we said that we need like 15, 15, 15 boys and girls, 15 boys and girls.
Now it's a combination of four and four trees.
Those are the students we started with.
So they chose for us the student that seems like they are distress in our way.

(11:29):
You see, like in our school, the teacher is able to recognize the student who look like they are
the emotional or they seem like they are meant to help these not nearly very healthy.
So we were given the first students.
They were about 15, 15, 15 boys, 15 girls.

(11:52):
And now when we started, we started well, we started with them.
But now because we used to go on our weekends on Saturday and Sunday, sometimes,
the students shared with others that, wow, we have in this program what they are discussing now.
Although now we talked about confidentiality, but they never talked about others.

(12:14):
Children were they shared, but in general, they shared like how they are having that moment,
what they are sharing, what they are feeling.
And other students, they actually came and forced themselves in.
But we could not like tell them, now you go, you know, we just accommodate them.
Because when we were going to settle up about our now our group therapy,

(12:37):
other students will pop in like they want to talk to us on a site and they will share their
desire that they want to join the group.
And we would not send them away.
So we ended up with 18, 18 boys, 18 girls.
And now that is how we went through like we make sure they had a lot to share.

(13:00):
We made sure that at least everyone of them had the opportunity to share.
And what we recognize actually that, you know, mental health is being a baby trying to walk in
Kenya. So we saw a gap. I actually I was very surprised that we have a very huge gap.

(13:23):
Like, I think we need to do something.
It needs to be looked in a serious way because the student shared a lot of sensitive things
and a lot of things that need to be followed up.
So it was a good eye opener. I was very surprised actually for me.
I never thought it was to be that serious like, who people are going through a lot.

(13:47):
So and they are so young, you know, there was a time where I was like, yeah, you saw
a look at you, you're 14 years old, you have gone through all that.
Oh my God. You know, we had that moment.
So they they actually loved that interaction, the group therapy, because we could see some of
them actually they changed. They changed. Actually, there were some of them with I could we recognize

(14:11):
about they are so down. They are so depressed about the family, how they are treated at home,
how when they go home, if the family are attending away, then they are left at home, locked in.
So they are isolated from social world. So it was it was like, you know, I think

(14:32):
as we move on, we need to involve the family because see, when if we talk to them, I expect
of that they even the family we heal as a community, we heal as a family, we heal.
You cannot heal alone because even though at the end of the day, it is you, your self-love,
you are self-esteem, your self-confidence, but still the family prays are all. So that is why

(14:57):
now as we feel, in the future, those recommendations that we need to involve family, because you say
we cannot heal these children alone. We need to work as teachers, as a counselor, as the community
also the government need to be given feedback that these people, I think like the school need to

(15:18):
be doing screening of mental health, you know, so that they can be able to know where these students
state of mind because they are vulnerable students and also build a person with disability in Kenya.
It's also come with a lot of challenges because the family may not accept you, the community,

(15:39):
the community, we still fight for environment where we are able to also assess in building.
You could see that some of the offices in the country, there may be upstairs,
there are persons with disabilities, not able to assess. So we are still somewhere working on it,
but we also need these students to feel when they come out they feel that they are able to talk for

(16:07):
themselves. We have said our aim exactly is self-love, you know, self-esteem for them to
you, to self-love themselves, you know, you know, we usually say that you cannot give what you don't
have. So we want them to come out as students who are so equipped, they are so aware of themselves,

(16:28):
they are so in love with themselves, you know, yeah, that is our aim, you know, and you are
so aware you also choose both careers but are in line to you as heart desires. You see,
and you're able to perform better and also be a very good team player. So that is our aim,
we want them to be so in love with themselves, you know.

(16:51):
So it, going back to the website, and again folks, it's spelled U-P-I-L-A-I-I-I-I-I-I.
U-P-I-L-I.org, or Healy.org. There is a piece on there. It's a chart. It's called Theory of Change.
Yes.
And there's four different areas, group counseling, teacher training, peer counselors,

(17:14):
caregiver awareness, throw it back to you guys. Tell us more about that.
I'll have to improve a little bit more. The Theory of Change we came up with, again,
September. And I think I was a little naive thinking we can jump into the pilot program and launch
something all at once. No. So we did the pilot program and I'm going to just share a couple

(17:40):
quick statistics because again, huge Catherine fan, and this was all the result of her doing her
counseling. We did benchmark testing at the beginning and at the end, and there was an 82%
reduction in anxiety with the participants versus those who didn't and 78% reduction in
depression with the Peely participants versus those who didn't. So we did great focusing only on

(18:06):
the group counseling. But like Catherine said, we need to kind of expand and that's where we're
headed next. We're adding in another school, which is the school for the deaf, but also kind of slowly
getting into the theory of change, working with the teachers, administration staff at both

(18:27):
institutions to kind of be those psychological first responders when Catherine's not there.
In between weeks and then waiting on the peer counseling because as Carla has learned,
we can't do everything at once. But the next really important piece is what Catherine said
with the parents and the caregivers that going back to what you said at the very beginning,

(18:52):
you know, I'm out in the world. I'm sure people see me coming in Austin and they're like,
Oh, there's that Peely woman and they're like, I gotta go because when they say and everybody does
and it's disability Pride Month and the ADA anniversary. But when they say, you know, we get it, it's
tough to have a disability here. It is phenomenally more challenging in East Africa, Kenya, specifically

(19:19):
from the physical structures. There's no ADA. So not being able to access the stories from the team
and I'm sure from Joytown are shocking and impressive with people's tenacity to get to class when there's
no elevator, that kind of thing. But also what Catherine was saying and what's been a learning
process for me the past almost five years. Some of these students in primary school are very old.

(19:46):
There may be, I don't think the oldest one I saw was maybe 13 starting primary because the family
significantly hid the child away. Their fear of the village will judge them. And so our plan,
not hope, is that Catherine gets the opportunity to go out and meet with some of the parents and

(20:08):
caregivers in the village. She's going, I don't know when this will run, second October to speak to
parents who have a student at the school where we did the pilot program. Yes, so they can hear what
she has to say. But also, and I've seen it in action so that these parents look at her and think,

(20:30):
I didn't realize, because of my children, I didn't realize that was possible for my child with a
disability. She's thriving, she's supporting herself, she's happy. So it's really bringing in
those two pieces of the theory of change next time. Teachers, staff, administration, psychological
first responders, and working with a partner organization where they're going to help us with

(20:52):
some of this parent caregiver training because it's what they do. What I didn't hear there was
anything talking about governments and the brick walls, the pain in the ass of government
regulation, which ADA can be, can be disadvantaged at times because of rules and things people don't

(21:14):
want businesses don't want to get into that. What sort of stuff are you guys running into? What
are the brick walls that you are running into? You've got to be running it. Not just the work
because you two will work. I'm sorry. You cut out. It's not just the work to get over. You
guys don't even look at working. Just, you know, the heck with it. But what real brick walls, what's

(21:36):
out there that's in your way from really moving and chugging forward? Frankly, in a phenomenal
way, I am not superstitious. I'm not going to knock on everything. But we've been working with the
Kenya Institute for Special Education. We've gotten the memorandums of understanding signed with the

(21:58):
schools. It's been, it's one of those things. It felt like it was never going to start a year ago.
Now that we've gained momentum, it's been supported and going really well with no roadblocks yet.
Really, our biggest roadblock is sort of what Clothrin touched upon with all of us, I think,

(22:19):
globally. But the need for people to prioritize money for mental health and really realize
mental health isn't, does this student feel good about themselves at Joytown on a Thursday
morning? But it impacts their ability in the world of work later. But it's fungal. It's more
than the government. I mean, we've been very, we've followed all the protocols and been very lucky.

(22:43):
Hmm. Okay. I would assume, I'll jump to the last question I was going to be getting into,
but then we're going to come backwards because I just want to get this out there. Everything
you're telling me about, I have yet to hear from any other organization, individual, since I've
gotten into doing this podcast with, and I talk to people around the world, and this is a good

(23:07):
example of it, especially in the United States. And no one's doing anything like this. Are you
documenting this? Are you setting things up? So if another organization or group reached out to you
and said, wow, this is a really cool program. Can you help us? Can are you in a position where
you could fire something back to them and say, okay, here's what we have, ABCDE and all of these,

(23:32):
that they could follow and just go, just get into it. And you guys have already,
have already created the base for it. Do you have something like that ready to go?
Yes. And it's kind of counterintuitive for me. I'm not, I feel like you could probably
surmise this. Very, very, I'm organized, but I'm not spreadsheets. I'm not reflexively process

(23:58):
and procedures. And I say to Mariam, who was on with me last time, on a daily basis, more
reminding myself than with her, if we disappeared from the earth tomorrow, we want people to say,
oh, bummer, and keep the program going. And so that's how we've set it up. So we could both
hand it off, but also, I think of us as a fist. I mean, we're one finger. And so that's kind of

(24:24):
powerful, but we need to bring in partners and we'll be much more powerful. We need to be able
to show them this is what we're doing. This is how we did it in order to get them to come on board.
But yes, we are and happy to help because our goal is really making an impact and changing lives.
It really is. So in Catherine, you're doing a show like this, and Carla mentioned you're doing

(24:50):
an television interview tomorrow. Are you now starting to get pulled in that direction
as a promotion person? Because dude, you're going to be asked to do this. And it's necessary.
So I mean, are you starting to get pulled not just with the students and you're starting to become

(25:12):
more of a face and a voice to the PLE project? So for me, I usually say that I live
my life at the other time. Every day I live at the other time, whatever comes, I'm moving with it.
Like I'm not just not that person who really prants too much, but I move with the flu. So if

(25:35):
whatever comes, if I'm able to do it, let's do it. Why not?
Okay. Yeah. Question for you, Catherine, share as much as you can here.
I want you to share a story of the biggest success or surprise change in a student.

(25:58):
Like in one of my students in the PLE? Yeah. Something that happened that you can tell
is grounding them that they're going to be taking forward with them. Some event where you could just
tell a light bulb went off above their head and something stuck like acceptance that they
have a disability. Yeah. There was one of the students. Yeah. There was one of the students.

(26:24):
So as I shared earlier, but this student was elected by the teacher and the counselor teacher.
So the team that started the PLE program were actually students that the teacher could notice
that they have an issue with their self, with their mental health. So there was one of the

(26:48):
student who we shared and she was so quiet, very quiet. But during the bad session, the false
session actually asked me if we can just have a chat on the side. So at the end of the group
therapy, we actually chatted on the side and she told me that, you know what? I was actually

(27:12):
thinking of suicide. And now when she told me that I asked her, you know what? Like we had that
moment of exploration. Like why are you thinking of this suicide? And she shared her story that she
lives with a grandmother and also the mother abandoned her. You see, like, you know, these

(27:33):
children with stability, you can find that maybe she's the first one. And the mother was happy,
married. And now when she conceived this child, they were happy as a couple. And then the,
and then the, the internet issue, the baby now,

(27:56):
the internet issue, she's going to pop in. And while we're waiting for a
comeback, come back in Carla Filisin, it was mentioned before that there's, here we go.
Oh, there you go. You're freaking out. I'm breaking out. You went off. We were freaking out. You went
off for a little bit. Crap hanger. Yeah. Right when it got really dramatic. Oh, sorry. So let me start.

(28:21):
I don't know. We got the, we got the point that a female who was thinking about suicide
and what the issues were, but everything, everything came out. She was thinking of suicide. So she
requested me after the proof therapy, we can, if we can have a chat on the side. So that is when
we had that I opted, we went outside, we talked, and she told me about her life, you know,

(28:49):
she's abandoned by the mother. She happened to be the first born in a family. They are several
other siblings who are younger. And now the mother was married. It was very happy married.
But after now, conceiving as a couple now, they were so happy. But this child was born with the,

(29:10):
with the disability, which is now the student. So since then, they, they actually, the father,
abandoned the child and the, and the child and the mother, and they also broke up. So the mother
went to, went for proceeded and married to another man. Now this, this, this students who was in my

(29:35):
group, one of my group, who was in my team now, she actually suffered from rejection by the mother.
And also you see the siblings, they usually see like, you see, you are not, it's like now you
are a cast to our family. The only support she has is her grandmother, who is so old. And now she was

(29:58):
so depressed that the grandmother is getting even more old. And she's wondering who will take care of
her because now she can see that grandmother may be the life expectancy is going low.
Yeah. So that's why, you know, when you talk to them, they are those, she was selected because
she was so quiet in class. You see, those symptoms of depression may be withdrew from other students.

(30:22):
So it was so touching for me because like, Lini, you see, sometime we can judge people, maybe they
don't want like talking to people. Sometimes you can go through mental health and you become like
an introvert and people want us. You see, you used to talk, but now you are so quiet. So she was
like a cry for health because she was even shared with me, like how she was planning to do it.

(30:46):
A lot of issues here and there. And now I was able to talk to her and she was like, you see,
since we started this, I have transformed. You see, I can't even look at myself in the mirror because
in the first sessions, we talked about, you know, like how you can love yourself. You look at yourself
in the mirror, you appreciate yourself, you talk to yourself, positive things. And now,

(31:13):
like most of the students said, but they never looked at themselves in the mirror and they are
so surprised actually. Upili is usually surprises me. It's the first stages, even me, myself. I never
thought like, what do you mean, like, who are you in the mirror? Like for me, I was thinking like
all of us, like every human like me, we look at ourselves in the mirror, maybe when you appear

(31:37):
in yourself for the day, but this student they shared, they actually have with the mirror and I was like,
now if you meet yourself in town, how are you able to recognize yourself, for example, like,
if you meet a person like you in town, like if you meet yourself, how do you even know yourself?
Because all of us, we are able to recognize our faces through the mirror because there is no way

(31:59):
you can just come out of your body and look at yourself. So you students, do you even know yourselves?
And that is when I realized that these students have been so broken by the society, by the family,
that they are not good enough, they are not looking good. They are so broken that even they are
looking at themselves. So I was like, you mean, I'm starting this therapy from that deep.

(32:24):
So I was so surprised, like, because like, now we are starting from underground, I thought we are
just starting like you people, like you need to connect with yourself. So yeah, that is,
I like the use of the mirror in that story. We can all relate to the use of a mirror and how it
reflects or doesn't seem to reflect properly are oftentimes damaged self-image. I want to get

(32:52):
into what you had mentioned earlier. Now you just talked about a female student. Correct me if I'm
wrong, it sounds, you mentioned you had 18 boys and 18 girls, male, female students. Is there any
separation? Are they dealt with differently because they're male or female? Or is the group brought
together and all work on the same things? No, we had separate, we had separate, we had to group

(33:19):
for the boys and for the girls. Okay, I can understand that I guess society treats it differently and
there's physiological issues, mental issues about how males are and how females are. So other,
sometimes any times that there's a crossover and is one large group, not necessarily any work can

(33:41):
be done social events. So any social events that are done? So they're on, she went on the weekends,
typically Saturday unless had to be Sunday. And so these students live together seven days a week.
Got it. Okay, now we've got a really full picture on this. The next thing I want to ask is

(34:04):
it seems, and correct me if I'm wrong here too, it seems that you have the base and now you're
building upili vertically. How high if you do have the base set, how high are you and how much
further, well, what's next, what's next to be built vertically to go up with upili?

(34:27):
It is vertically, but then it comes back to that for prom theory of change on the website. So we're
concurrently going horizontal and filling that out. Okay. While building upward. But you ask a
really good question. And Catherine, jump in if I'm getting any of this incorrect. But when Mariam
on last time, my manager and Catherine leave the campus so often, they're like what we in America

(34:53):
would say the pie Piper that students are following them. And one more question. And can I ask you
this? So the next step foundation as a whole focuses on technology, AI, thinking about the chat
box. And this is something I'm working on separately pulling in and we're still in discussions. So it

(35:16):
won't name them to other organizations that kind of do the same thing both in Africa.
And creating some sort of a chat bot, utilizing not the information from the sessions, but maybe
the kinds of questions the students ask and being able to train. And this is not something I speak
to the learning language model. So they will have something to support them all the time, breaks,

(35:43):
not on campus. So that's the big vertical in addition to expanding to other schools. We know where we're
going schools wise, and it's just getting funding and wanting to do it well. I know if we try to run
before we walk, I've been there with companies and things all of her.
Okay, let's talk about the horizontal building. You mentioned you are now in you've got one

(36:10):
school going. What about branching that off larger within that area, that country worldwide?
What are your thoughts? Has anyone approached you from other organizations or anything? As I was
mentioning here, 40, we have this baby ready to go. People have approached us as far as

(36:32):
partnership who are doing slightly similar and we're complimentary for each other,
thinking of an organization who saw our theory of change and what they do is mostly work with
parents and caregivers. So that's more of a puzzle piece. But we're looking at Tanzania.
I've applied for funding because we do some work already in Tanzania and we have connections to

(36:57):
their language, not mine, some of the DPOs, the disabled persons organizations who can connect
us with the special schools in Tanzania. So we're, I mean, we have schools. Everyone we visited said
what's on the website and it's on our theory of change. The we need you like yesterday,
the mental health, we see that this is support that's needed. So no school we've approached has

(37:22):
said, I don't think we're interested. Okay. All right. So let's get down to the personal aspect of this.
Carla, what's next for you? I'm hoping to go back to Kenya. I mean, I would love to go for a month
and spend time connecting with people there. I'm hoping in November that Katherine and I are

(37:45):
at a conference. I've applied for us to do a presentation. It's all Africa all the time here.
And it's the it's a job I've had not for a long time where I think I would be passionate about this
and donating and reading and seeing how I could help even if it wasn't my job with my background of
master's degree in educational counseling and just the passion for doing unto others.

(38:12):
Okay. Katherine, what's next for you? What's next for you?
For me? Not just work. Yeah. Not just work. You're doing it. What's next? You just work.
Okay. So, you know, I used to have a lot of plans like about my life. But now after my life

(38:38):
changed, I usually say, you know what, I'm living every day at a time, every day at a time.
Today I do my best. Tomorrow I do my best. Yeah, I live like that. But in terms of career wise,
I'm okay. I have I did my psychology bachelor's in psychology. I did my master's. So, I don't think

(39:10):
about PhD for now. I'm thinking about working and doing the groundwork. Yeah. Like what I'm doing
with Upili. So, I'm happy with that. I'm doing that. My aim is to make change to people, you know,
like for me when I acquired this disability, I never had someone who was like, you know,

(39:33):
someone with disability like me. I never had that opportunity to meet people who are different.
So, those people who used to encourage me, they were able people. So, I never felt as though they
understood me. So, if I can be able to be that person I never had the opportunity to be, to have,

(39:57):
then I can I am happy that I have done something. If I can be able to change someone's mind,
so a person who is thinking of suicide and they look at life from a different perspective,
then I'm happy. That should tell you a lot about yourself. That person reached out to you. They

(40:18):
trusted you to share that. That's an extremely important aspect of looking back at you and what
you have gone. Okay. All right. So, we're going to do things because there's two of you on the
road. We do a little something here that we call the road trip roundup. I'm going to shrink it

(40:42):
down to four questions for each of you that we're going to shoot through the deal with road trips.
Okay. Life is a road trip, but just plain road trips. Let's talk about that. So,
when Carly first, when road tripping, do you rely on Waze, Google Maps, or another source to get
you from point A to point B? Google Maps, worst sense of direction. I need someone with me as

(41:07):
well, because I can still get lost with Google Maps. I don't know if you like my wife. Sue,
I didn't. She's not okay. Okay. She's best. She's best as a co-pilot. Okay. Gotcha. But I got you.
Gotcha. All right. Catherine. Yes. What are you relying on? Google Map.

(41:30):
You do Google Map. Yeah. Do you have a like on the iPhone you plug it in or do you have it built
into your car? I have my iPhone that helps me to go around actually even going around my Ruby,
because I was born in Bika. I now work in a Ruby. So, if I need like, I need to leave it a shop somewhere

(41:51):
to go buy my makeup, like I use my Google Map, because I don't even know my Rope. Yes.
Well, my Rope is big city. It's a big city. And sometime you can be told maybe we meet in this
building, but you maybe know the building and you don't know the name. So, I usually use
Google Map in my everyday like it helps me. Thank you for your honesty. Thank you for

(42:16):
your time. See, we're doing a little psychology here. We're able to just stretch out on the sofa
and just talk. Let's get all this venting out. Okay. There you go, dudes. What's your dream car for a
road trip? Carla. I'm obsessed with and I will never own one, but lately, G-Wagon. Do you know

(42:37):
what those are? You talk about the new folks I can bust? No, they are. I mean, I'm probably
calling it the wrong thing because I would fly everywhere if I could. Katherine, do you know what
I mean? I want to call it the actually I don't even know, but it's like Foxy. It reminds me of
Kenya. It's more like the Land Cruiser S anything like that. Range Rover Land Cruiser.
Okay, got it. I mean, I mean, $200,000. I'll take a G-Wagon. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. I hear what you mean.

(43:03):
All right. Some big bulky. Yeah. I don't know where I'm going, but I'm going to get there if I
drive over anything. All right. And my dog. Yeah. Okay. Got you. Katherine, what's your dream
dream car for a road trip? A Jeep, Wagon. Rubricon. I love that car. She's specific. Yes.
I got it. I got it. When she figures out how to get there.

(43:29):
Well, you got to go to Google Maps and you have to plug in where that dealership is. So,
you can go down there and say, that's right. Dude, this is what I want. Let's work out a deal.
I love that. And the fact that you have to remove the parts and make it like, you know, open and
when you want to close it, you just pull in. You can do it. I remember. Yeah. There was a car made

(43:52):
back in the 80s. It was called the Thing late 70s, early 80s. I remember having a thing by Volkswagen.
You could take off the doors. You could take off the top. It sounds like what you're talking.
I mean, you just sitting out there. Okay. That was a weird thing. What an appropriate name,
the Thing. I'm gonna have to Google that. Yeah. The Jeep, you gotta do that. It's cool. Yeah.
Yeah. They were rust buckets here. I love these. Okay. Which one am I going to do on? All right.

(44:17):
What's your go to snack to get you through a long drive for on a road trip? What's a go to?
You pulled into a gas station. Damn, I'm hungry. This is what I'm going to get. What are you going
to come out of the store with Carla? Beef jerky and an energy drink. They can work against
each other, healthy, not healthy, but I'm beef jerky everywhere I go. Okay. Gotcha.

(44:43):
Catherine, what's your go to snack? Yeah. My chama. Yes. Yeah. My chama.
Like mom. Is that a, is it in a bag?
Roasted. Good. That's kind of, it's kind of like what Carla said. That's kind of like jerky
then, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's more race. Yeah. Let me, let me ask you a little bit more.

(45:07):
Catherine, what are you going to wash it down with? Coke or Pepsi? No. Water. No. What are you
going to wash? Water. Just water. Okay. Yes. So a nice natural taste you get from that. And then
okay, just let it all come through minutes. Okay. Last question for you guys. Tricky,
Carla's going to have this one. Catherine, you're a little on the young side, but I added to this,

(45:30):
this question. Okay. All right. Carla, you're first. Last cassette, CD or station on an app
that played while you're on a road trip. I don't know what the name of it is on iHeartRadio,
but it's 90s hip hop because. Okay. I love the name. It's not old.
Get in my car. I got Tom Petty going and stuff. Okay. I don't. Yes. I'm 90s hip hop. I need your

(45:56):
Catherine. I can just see you bouncing around. Yeah. Catherine, what do you have last time?
I think the West life, West life music. West life. What's the style is that? It's a rock.
It sounds casual. It's a love song like so. He always times.
The massive crit place. Okay. This is the best part of the whole podcast. I do not know. We

(46:23):
would get singing. Yo. That's cool. I like that. I don't know. Which is going to have a little
venture off and that's really good. Yeah. There you go. I just do that. Well, speaking of outros,
let's the three of us stay on for just a moment. I'm going to hit stop here. This is great.
You guys are casual. Don't forget folks. It's u-p-i-l-i.org. P-e-l-e-dot or go there. They could use some

(46:49):
cash. Okay. Let's just end this with thanks for listening folks. Challenge the likes and keep
listening to life's erode trip. Thanks for listening. Check out previous episodes with new ones
dropping each Tuesday. If you don't see a synopsis of this show where you're listening,
visit our website at lifestoreodetrip.podbean.com for more information on this week's guest.

(47:17):
This is your host Scott Martin reminding you that life's erode trip.
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