“Israel Kills Our Artists, But Gaza Still Rises.” | Malak Mattar & Khalid Abdalla

Palestinian journalist from Gaza Ahmed Alnaouq is joined by Palestinian artist Malak Mattar and Egyptian-British actor, activist and playwright Khalid Abdalla for the third episode of PDD's new weekly chat show, premiering each Wednesday at 7pm UK time.Support us by becoming a paid subscriber from as little as £1 a month. Your support helps us build independent Palestinian-led media in a world which has never needed it more urgently:

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Even after a genocide, even after people of all walks of
life being killed, even after all the knowledge of the number
of journalists and health workers and ambulance drivers,
and I still somehow in order to protect myself, have to ask that
question in terms of, you know, as opposed to flipping around.

(00:25):
It's logic and kind of going, what is this?
Fucking wow. There's so much the world,
especially the art world, has tolearn from the Gaza scene, which
is you occupy us, you put us in a cage, you prevent us from
having art pains, you kill our artists, you kill and you
destroy the art centres, the heritage, the culture.

(00:48):
Rashad Shawa Centre and Mishal Theatre, which was one of the
main theatres in Gaza. But we still rise and we still
continue to make works and we still continue to tell the
story, which is a strong part ofour fight as people.
Hello and welcome back to Palestine Deep Dive.
Today I am thrilled to be joinedby two friends, the phenomenal

(01:09):
actor, activist and playwright Khalid Abdullah and the world
renowned artist and fellow Palestinian from Gaza, Malak
Matar. Unfortunately my Co host Hala
Hanina can't be with us today. She is completing her PhD so we
wish her all the luck and the world and we will see her next
week inshallah. Before I turn to our guests,

(01:32):
here's a quick summary of some of the biggest stories from
across Palestine and the wider region this week.
Israeli forces and settlers havekilled at least 11 Palestinians
across the occupied Palestine this week.
In Gaza, at least seven were killed in a series of Israeli of
Israeli attacks, including in northern Gaza, where Palestinian

(01:52):
women was killed when Israeli naval forces shelled tents
sheltering displaced families. Northwest of Beit Lahiya and
occupied West Bank, 4 Palestinians were killed on
Tuesday, including two in an attack by Israeli settlers.
Al Muayer Boys school, east of Ramallah in Hebron occupied West
Bank, 16 year old boy Muhammad Majdi Al Jaberi was killed when

(02:17):
he was struck by a vehicle belonging to a security convoy
escorting an Israeli minister near illegal settlement of
Karyat Arpa. It is reported that the convoy
was providing security for the Israeli settlement minister or
it stroke who lives in an illegal settlement in Hebron.

(02:37):
We have also seen Israeli army continuing its brutality across
Lebanon with continued air strikes and killing.
Israel has killed at least 254 four people in Lebanon after the
US Iran agreement of ceasefire. We will be covering more of
these stories throughout our show, so stay tuned.

(03:02):
Malik and Khalid, thank you verymuch for joining me today.
It's really amazing to see you here.
How are you? How are you?
It's always the most you know. How are you?
It's a very dangerous question in these times.
I know when we designed this chat show, we wanted to be
cheerful. Exactly.

(03:23):
Be hopeful and look at us starting the chat show with all
of these adieus killing and murdering and occupation.
It's really sad. It's like we can't escape it.
We can't escape our reality. But it's again, it's really good
to be with you. You know, I remember when I
first met, met Malik 10 years ago, I think when you were a

(03:44):
child, yet you were organizing your first exhibition in Gaza
and Beta Sahaba, House of House of the Press.
That was the first time we've met.
And I never thought that 10 years later we would meet.
Again. In London, in our studio full of
your artwork. Oh my God, how?
Does it feel? Well, it feels a lot of things.

(04:05):
I just feel it's been a rough journey to begin with, but it's
been a resilient journey. I think about every time I
really went to art as a way of surviving, but also as a way of
documenting what we've lived through.
I look at some of the paintings and I recall what happened when

(04:27):
I did this work, for example, Thorough Revolution.
I remember when I painted it in 2019, it was the time where
Israel Grey was killed by one ofher family members, and it was
the time where I felt that we, as Palestinian women, we deserve
more. We are facing layers of

(04:49):
patriarchy, but also colonization, which is really
too rough and too heavy on us tocarry beside holding families
and going to school and teachingand working.
So I've I call myself privilege to be able to be a painter and
to be able to carry with me the stories that I grew up with in

(05:11):
Gaza, but also our encounter andwhat we are not Numbers meant to
me as someone who had no outlook, we had no reach to the
world outside. So being part of We Are Not
Numbers was I really is just herof hope for me and many of my
colleagues and it was the time where we collaborated so poets

(05:33):
would reach out can we use this painting?
I would I would reach to writersgo to use the script as to
follow with my painting. So it opened doors and it opens
connection with my fellow and. I'm very happy.
I'm very happy that we met. I'm very happy that we were able
to help publish some of your artand your poetry.

(05:53):
And also Malik, by the way, she has one of our poems in our in
our book. We are not numbers of voices of
Gaza youth. Khalid, I never thought one day
will come where I will meet withyou in in in our studio.
I remember the first time I saw some of you work when I was in
Gaza, the Chaitrana. And I never thought in my life
that one day I will be sitting with you.

(06:16):
I mean, for me, the honor is truly mine because I'm the one
who feels like I am in a very special space.
In terms of what you have been carrying not just over these
last two years, but beyond that,in terms of what the show, what
this podcast has been carrying in terms of the conversation,

(06:36):
the intersection of people and voices.
It's an honor for me to be here.So it's really the other way
around. Thank you very much.
I'm I'm, I'm, I'm glad that we have this space where we
Palestinians and non Palestinians can meet, talk
freely without interruption, without taking away one's
agency. It's really I'm, I'm really

(06:57):
proud of this. There is a lot I want to talk to
you about Khalid. Definitely.
I'm I'm going to talk about the crown and your role there and
some of our audience, when we told them that we're going to
have Khalid, they asked us ask him who killed the Princess.
They have, I'm not going to ask you this question though, before
we go to that part. Over the weekend, there was a

(07:20):
lot of pictures that were taken in Lebanon and they went viral
online. We want to see some of them and
see your reaction to them. Here is the first picture and it
is. It's a picture taken in Lebanon

(07:43):
of an Israeli soldier storming into a Lebanese house and
cooking food. And you know, for me as a
Palestinian, this picture revokes a lot of emotions.
I, I see it's 2026, but when I look at this picture, I see the

(08:04):
Nakba 1948 where some Zionist forces came from all around the
world, took our houses. I remember like my grandparents
lived in Yafa and I, I can see that maybe at that time there
were one Israeli soldier who entered my grandparents house in
Yafa and took it and they still live in it until now.

(08:25):
It is happening over and over again.
But what is shocking me is the sheer shamelessness.
I mean, look at them taking a house, cooking the food there,
the food that belongs to a Lebanese family, and taking a
picture and posting it online. How do you feel?
How do you feel watching this inin this period of time in 2026?

(08:51):
I feel you should answer first. I mean, it's such a
heartbreaking image because whenyou look at it, it there is so
much life in this kitchen. You look at the bottle, you look
at the gloves, you look at, you know, you feel like this place
has been inhabited by a family, by a mother, by people.

(09:14):
And I think about also is one ofthe many villages that have been
forced to evacuate. So you think about the destiny
of this family, that they could be homeless in the streets while
soldiers who have absolutely no right to be in this house, to be
in this land, enjoying her time.So it's heartbreaking.

(09:35):
As you said, it's shameless. Yeah.
It's, I mean, for me it's the quiet violence.
It's the quiet violence of the image.
It's the fact that you could look at the image and see, oh,
it's just a lady in the kitchen cooking some food.
And of course it's entirely normalised.

(09:55):
You ask the question, how could this be happening in 2026?
At some level, that's a ridiculous question because this
is the least of what is happening in in 2026 in terms of
the variety of images that are far more violent that we have
seen over the last two years. And as you say, this is a
repetition of what's been going on since 1948 and onwards.

(10:19):
But for me, it's the quiet violence.
It's the ease with which she's standing there pouring the
cooking oil. Smiling.
And laughing. And it's the fact that it's a,
it's an unremarkable image, which is what makes it so
violent for me. At some level.
It also kind of it's not, it's not just about the reality of
what it represents in, in, in, in terms of Lebanon OR in terms

(10:42):
of Palestine. To me, it's it's also
representative of the quiet violence of the world in
general. You know, you asked how are you
at the beginning? The truth is, is I live in a
kind of constant situation of cognitive dissonance, right?
I live in a situation where I amstill trying to understand and
compute, not a process. I don't even know what the right

(11:03):
word is. The fact that I have lived
through the last two years of genocide and the genocide
continues. The world continues as it as it
is. Oh, a million Lebanese can be
displaced as if that's now totally normal. 245 can be
killed during a ceasefire over 2000 over the last few weeks in
everything like this. And this is a normal image.

(11:27):
You know, this is a gentle imagein comparison to everything
else. And, and you know, the other
thing that's striking to me about it is an image is that
there are some people who are able to read it and there are
some people who aren't. Wow and.
It's, you know, and it's the thefact that some immediately see
it and kind of go and, and, and others who who don't understand.

(11:52):
And I think that's a sort of sign of the world.
And, and, and this moment, Well,you know, maybe some choose, I
mean, I, you know, yeah, we'll get into the question of, of
maybe we'll get into the question of who to blame and who
not to blame and whose responsibility it is.
But fact of the matter is this is the world that we're in.

(12:15):
And, you know, we're in a conversation here to artists,
right? So we understand narrative.
We understand, we understand image, we understand what's
going on inside, you know, inside these moments and what
they reflect about our society. It's it's it's it's how gentle
that image is that is so painful.

(12:37):
It is, but like you, you left Gaza only a few days before the
genocide just started. Your house is in Gaza.
What happened to your home? So like the House of like the
place I grew up with is still semi standing, but the House of
my grandparents has fully been levelled up and it's the house

(12:58):
that has been has the reason of why I was the I became an artist
in the 1st place. It was the place that I was
exposed to posters of Van Gogh, of Edgar Dick at the dancers,
but also equally artist from ourregion, Palestinian artist,
Egyptian artist, Moroccan, Algerian artist.

(13:22):
So I grew up within this like 2 cultures and I got to see the
beauty of these two completely like different cultures.
But I had my first exposure to art, art books, archives due to
this house so. You see, for some, for many
people, when they watch a destroyed home, when they learn

(13:44):
about the home destroyed, it doesn't really, they don't
really understand the gravity ofthis.
A home is not just walls and bricks.
A home is where we belong. It's where we grew up.
It's where we received our education, where we received the
love and the support and the family and all of it.
It just goes away. And this I don't.
Ever since I saw this picture, Ialways think of the family who

(14:08):
owned this place, and now they see it occupied by Israeli
soldiers who are enjoying in it,enjoying stealing the food and
the grocery and cooking it. And the family maybe know that
the Israelis may never leave this house forever.
It's what happened to us in the Nakba.
What happened to the people in Gaza after the genocide.

(14:29):
Now half of Gaza is taken by theIsraelis.
The Israelis don't seem to want to evacuate these areas.
And it's happening over and overagain.
And no one is stopping this genocidal army from the enjoying
the, the, the theft and stealingour, our food.
But the brutality of Israel doesnot stop here.

(14:50):
We have another different, we have a different type of
brutality. And this type of brutality, I
think it's, I don't know why I feel like the Israeli army
enjoys how they kill the Palestinians and the Lebanese
people. Here we have, we have, I want to
show you another video of that shows another form of, of sadism

(15:11):
that the Israelis enjoy nowadays.
Let's see this video together inLebanon.
Again. Some people may not understand

(16:00):
what was happening here. What was happening?
Is this the Israeli army called a man in his car with his family
and they told him, do you want to die alone or do you want to
die with your family? If you want to die alone, leave
the car immediately and go somewhere else where we can kill
you on your own. If you want to stay in the car,
we're going to kill you and all your family.

(16:22):
The guy chose to leave the car immediately and run away, and
they bombed him only seconds later.
Some people would say, OK, they give him the option, they don't
want to kill his family. What if the guy was terrified
and did not want to leave? They would kill him with his
family. And who are you to begin with to
decide how to kill these people?I mean, this era is so dark, the

(16:47):
future is so dark where there isan occupation army can decide to
win and how to kill people and play games with how they kill
people. How does that make you feel as
an Arab, as a, as a, as an Egyptian man, as an artist?

(17:07):
I mean, when I first saw that video and understood it, because
it took a second to understand what was going on, it made my
eyes water because I, on the oneside, imagine the speed with
which he needs to make the decision.

(17:29):
And on the other, I imagine his family inside trying to
interpret this moment. And then going through the
trauma of the father, the brother, the husband being
killed, and then for the rest oftheir lives, at some level

(17:52):
living inside this moment. And at the same time, I also
interpret it, I, I also interpret it as violence, not
just in, in what happened in theincident, but also in the way

(18:12):
that, you know, I mean, even in,even in conversation, you're
used to this feeling of the, thegun at your head, you know, or,
you know, as the same kind of Fanny puts it, you know, the,
the. Conversation between the.
Sword at your, you know, at yourat your neck, right part of what

(18:36):
this does in terms of you know, creating the constant sense of
surveillance, creating the constant sense of threat of lack
of safety while you know, while in while in pursuit of
liberation. It's, you know, there's a

(19:03):
you're, you're and and at the same time and at the same time
it's not news. It's not.
You know, in the same way as theprevious image.
And maybe this is something thatwe will keep returning to.
It's familiar, you know, I mean,it, it, it's in this, you know,

(19:25):
you will know better than me within the Palestinian context,
the number of people who, you know, for whom similar phone
calls might have come, you know,but the constant stories that we
have received of, of drones following people and its
relationship with AI and its wider relationship with these

(19:47):
structures of surveillance that are becoming more and more
pervasive in our life. It's relationship with
Minnesota, it's relationship with, you know, the, the wider
infrastructures of surveillance in the world, It's and Palestine
and Lebanon, but you know, as asa kind of laboratory in which

(20:11):
these, these these forms of violence are tested out before
they're rolled out everywhere else.
So it's. So many layers in terms of what
you begin to interpret, you know, And then of course there's
the there's and then of course there's that sort of the, the

(20:33):
logic of justification that we have become so kind of
normalized into asking, you know, where you would presume
someone would watch that and kind of go, well, is that person
guilty? Do they deserve to die?
Do I have to, do I have to do mydue diligence as well as asking
that question? Even after a genocide, Even

(20:58):
after people of all walks of life being killed, even after
all the knowledge of the number of journalists and health
workers and ambulance drivers and every other.
Force. And yet I still somehow in order
to protect myself, have to ask that, have to ask that question
in terms of, you know, as opposed to flipping around, it's

(21:23):
logic and kind of going, what isthis?
Fucking wow. Exactly, Malakur, you're from
Gaza and you know, this story isnot, does not stand alone.
We heard so many stories of Palestinians who were given the

(21:44):
same option by the Israeli army.Leave your tent or die with your
family. We have been hearing these
stories over and over. Now you live in the UK in London
and I'm sorry to hear yesterday a gang robbed you stole your
phone. But I mean like the sense of
insecurity and unsafety is happening here and there.

(22:05):
But recently we, we heard that Palantir, this scary dodgy AI
company is taking our health records in the UK, the London
police. Now we, we, they might enforce
the face recognition technology here.
I mean, what kind of world are we living in?
How do you react to this? It's definitely a scary world

(22:29):
and every time I feel like I need to escape, I just go to my
studio and I know I'm more safe.Just among the elements of ink,
watercolor, acrylics, my books and researching.
And this gives me some sanity ina world where if you leave your
house, you know, you might be attacked or you might be robbed,

(22:52):
as happened to me yesterday. It was insane.
But I also, and this is so disturbing what I'm about to
say, but when I saw this video, I was very like, it's
devastating. But I think of my neighbor back
in 2014 who was killed without any warning.

(23:16):
You know, her house was struck. Her husband, he was standing on
the roof and he from the tent city of the air struck.
He jumped in like he flew all across the street.
And she was like almost like maimed, like she was turned into
pieces. And I remember that very
vividly. She received no warnings and 10s

(23:38):
of thousands of people don't even have the option of like
leave the house now we will bombyou, etcetera.
So I feel disturbed to even say that.
But this is how low the humanitygot us is like you just feel
like, you know, entire families didn't even have the option to
choose. It's either me or my family to

(24:02):
be killed. We are at the bottom of
humanity, and that's why I feel we just have to keep rising and
we have to keep talking and we have to keep protesting in any
way or shape or form. We have to resist against
normalizing this reality which could never, should never be
normalized. Yeah, before we started

(24:23):
recording, we were talking aboutthis news.
All of this is not a news. It's, it's a cycle that is
repeated over and over again. It seems never ending.
And yes, we, we have been viewedby the world that we are at the
bottom of humanity. We are not, we are at the top of
humanity. You know, I remember last week I

(24:44):
was in a visit in the to the EU Parliament that I met with an
MEP and he told me that's, this is what disturbs me a lot.
And I said this story many times, but I can't not say it
over and over. And this MEP, he told me that I
know he was describing to him how Israel is a genocide to

(25:05):
apartheid the state and how Netanyahu is a war criminal and
all of it. And he said, Ahmad, stop, don't
tell me all of that. I said, why?
And he said, because I already know that we already know that
Israel is committing A genocide.Israel is committing war crimes
and all the rest of it. But he said to me, he said we
support Israel because Israel isthe shield that protects us from

(25:27):
the Islamists in the Middle East.
And I was like, really? Does Israeli protect the West?
He sees it as Israel is protecting the Christians of the
West from the Islamists in the UK.
Well, we have seen how Israel treats Christians in Palestine
and Christians in Lebanon as well.

(25:48):
We have seen this picture a few days ago with with an Israeli
soldier smashing the statue of Jesus Christ.
Can we see this picture again, guys?
So this is an Israeli soldier smashing a statue of Jesus
Christ in Lebanon. And what annoyed me about this
picture, not only that they are desecrating a holy statue that

(26:11):
is regarded holy for millions ofpeople all around the world, is
that the media talked about thispicture way more than they
talked about how the actually Christians in Palestine were
treated by the Israeli army. They were Spaton, they were
killed, they were mistreated andall of it.

(26:33):
And now, now the the Western media all taking this picture,
of course, Israel and the Israeli army, after it went
viral, they apologized. You know, and I want to ask you,
I, I want to ask both of you actually, how does it feel to
you that Israel apologized for this picture because it went
viral, but Israel never apologised for the genocide, the

(26:58):
genocide. How much do we care right now
about pictures and statues more than the actual lives of the
people? And I, I say in no words, I say
that I justify this. This is horrible.
This is horrendous. This is desecration of an entire
religion that is peaceful and lovely and should be sacred and

(27:18):
protected. But the West looks at these
genocidal army as protectors of the Western civilization, as the
protectors of the the Christianity all around the
world. How does that feel to you?
I mean, this image reminds me a lot of the systematic cultural

(27:39):
and religious obliteration, especially in the Gaza Strip.
The third, the oldest, one of the oldest churches in Gaza, the
Saint Post First Church has beenbombed.
The Church of Jebelia has been bombed at Ameri Mosque.
Almost 200 religious and cultural sites have been

(28:03):
destroyed during the genocide, but also before that.
So apologies are really hypocritical and they don't mean
anything. But it also comes after decades
of disrespecting religion and culture over and over again as a
technique of erasing the people and erasing their culture,
erasing the religious sites which are very well taken care

(28:25):
of, very well protected. It makes me think of casual
basha which 70% of it has been destroyed by Israel, Only 30% of
it is still standing and it's now currently being persevered
by the people who are volunteering to protect their
eminence of this in very important and one of the oldest

(28:48):
museums in the Gaza Strip. But also from 17 to 20,000
artefacts have been looted and reported missing.
So in few weeks and few months we will find this artefacts
which should belong to the indigenous of the Latin and the
indigenous people are being exhibited in the museums of
Israel, glamorous exhibitions. And this is really one of the

(29:12):
ugliness of the colonization is that you simply are stolen.
Your history, your food, your culture is constantly being
stolen from your very land. So it really reminded me of many
things. But I also have to to mention a
very brief story of the Church of Saint Puspers, which as an

(29:33):
artist it has impacted me a lot in my work.
So my mom is a was a school teacher and she would bring her
students into trips. So we would start with Al Amari
Mosque and then we would go to the St. bus 1st and around the
city, the old city of of Gaza City.
And it was one of the earliest time I have encountered icons

(29:57):
original painting in the roof. And I was absolutely fascinated
by what I've seen that almost 200 paintings are influenced by
the icons have golden Halos. And I constantly get asked like
what it why to put golden Halos.But I was very like fascinated
by what I've seen. So I feel personally connected

(30:17):
to this church as one of the most important and most Shirish
churches in the Gaza City. I've been to that church.
Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating.
Should be protected. Should be protected, not bombed.
And it's bombed inside people who took it as a shelter because
they think this is safer than myhome and they would go there.

(30:38):
Unfortunately, many people have lost their lives inside this
church. Yeah, I mean, the, the symbolic
power of the image, you know, I think kind of travels on, on,
on, on multiple levels. Of course, as soon as you've
taken it down, now I kind of want to see it again.
But but you know, on on the one side, obviously you, you, when I

(31:06):
see it, I immediately see all ofthe other images that I have
seen of the impunity of Israeli soldiers filming themselves,
taking photographs of themselvesdestroying universities, wearing
women's clothes, you know, desecrating people's homes,

(31:26):
making fun of Palestinians whilehaving, while killing them.
You know, that's on the one on the one level, I see that.
And exactly as you say I am, I am, I feel the assault and the
fact that there is an outcry in relation to this image that is
not equal to the outcry in relation to those other images.

(31:50):
To the extent that the words that want to come out of my
mouth are that if Jesus were alive today as well as being
offended by being attacked in this way, I would hope he he
would say, you know, care more about the people who have been
killed than a statue of me of. Course.

(32:12):
Right. And, and it is the fact that
there is this imbalance that means the part of what the image
does as well is, is tell us about the dynamics of power that
are current. Why does Benjamin Netanyahu or
other people apologize for this image?

(32:33):
Because they are scared of losing the Christian evangelical
support that they have in in theUS.
They are scared of the further, the further loss of Catholic
support around the world and, and you know, and what it would
mean in terms of the support base that exists in the West in

(32:56):
general, and not just in, in, inthe West that flows into the
dynamics of what you were talking about.
So it's the, there's not just the iconic, the iconic symbolism
of the, of the image in terms ofwhat it's capturing.
There's also the power dynamics that are inside it and
underneath it. I've always tried not to talk

(33:20):
about religions and theologies. I'm definitely not a Christian,
but I've been to countless churches here in the UK.
I've even been to Iona Island where I spent a week with
pilgrims who go to Iona Island and do their pilgrimage.
And that was one of the most beautiful times of my life.

(33:40):
To be honest. I've, I've stayed at the
cathedral there, Iona, and I've learnt a lot of backwards about
Christianity there. But what I found fascinating
about the religion is that the emphasis on peace, you know,
they cares. The Christianity cares so much
about peace and forgiveness and everything Israel does is

(34:01):
unchristian. It's opposite to Christianity.
I'm just annoyed to see that theWestern world, the Christian
world, find themselves in proximity with the Israeli army
that is so unchristian and they forget about their brothers and
sisters who are Christians and Muslims who live in Palestine,
who have been abused and killed and traumatized by the by by

(34:23):
this genocidal Israeli regime. I just don't understand this.
Forgive me though, I don't thinkwe should call it UN Christian
or UN Islamic or UN terrorist, you know, I just think we should
call it immoral. Immoral, you know, I don't think
it's a matter of attaching any religious identity to it.
I think it's just simply that what we are seeing are levels
of, of depraved, unaccountable behavior in various different

(34:51):
forms with Israel in this momentof kind of, of, of turbo charged
impunity, attempting to desecrate and expand into forms
of a, of a, of a, of a grace of Israel that it is talking about
openly. And so, you know, the, and so

(35:12):
the recurrence of these images becomes part of what happens,
you know, when, when, when you are marauding in this way with
such unaccountability and such impunity and, and just left to
do whatever you want to do. These are, these are and, and
sometimes these images appear as, as forms of violence

(35:35):
themselves that, that almost feel intentional.
And sometimes like this one, they trip up into ones that from
an Israeli point of view, they feel they need to apologize for
because it, it falls, you know, it falls into the other power
dynamics that they have to, thatthey have to account for.
But you know, from our perspective or anyone saying, as

(35:55):
far as I'm, you know, concerned,who can see, you know, who can
see what's going on here, it is simply just another drop in the
ocean of, of, of, of genocidal, of the genocidal expansionist
project. And, you know, I recall what
happened just now when the NotreDame church was burnt in France

(36:22):
and the world was on fire, UNESCO helping people, donating,
fundraising. And I was in Gaza back at the
time, and I saw the amount of like, everyone was sharing it.
And of course, it's such a horrendous thing to happen for
one of the world's oldest churchand also most important churches
in France. But when you when it comes to

(36:43):
the churches in Palestine, it just becomes a different story.
Well, you never know what was there.
Well, you never know who got into the church in the 1st
place. There's so many justifications
for why it it's a collateral damage, why it might have been
damaged as a result of something.
But still, it's a holy place that should be respected just as

(37:05):
the not exam church in France. And.
And it shouldn't be the comparison between this and
that, It should be. I'm just referring to the holy
place and as a church, Speaking of it as a religious site.
Not only holy but also very ancient.
I mean, it should be protected. It's the third oldest church in.

(37:25):
The world we're talking about. Sorry, I will cut you off here
talking about Christianity in the churches.
Yesterday I read a piece by the BBC.
Let's let's guys if we can show the piece by the BBC about the
pub mobile. So it says pub mobile, a
childhood clinic yet to reach Gaza one year after Francis

(37:46):
death. So if you don't know the story,
it's one of the last wishes of Bob Francis was to turn his Bob
mobile to a clinic that go to Gaza and he treated children in
Gaza. So one year after his death, his
mobile did not enter Gaza. But see how the BBC reported it.

(38:11):
The clinic is just waiting or hasn't arrived in Gaza.
How how do you react to this news?
What? What do you what do you think is
wrong with this title? Honest, it's a funny looking

(38:32):
clinic. I never saw anything like that
before. No, but I mean.
I mean, you know, I mean, obviously, you know, obviously
it's the fact that it's a, it's the news story rather than it
being put in the context of everything else that is not
being allowed into Gaza. And yet at the same time, I also

(38:54):
have to say that part of, you know, part of me is also, you
know, I think that's also the power of the gesture from Pope
Francis, right? Part of the power of the gesture
to say, this is what I want the clinic to do.
This is what I want, my Pope. To do this is where.
I, this is where this is where Iwanted to go is about also
making clear what is being held up and what is not being

(39:19):
allowed. You know what is not being
allowed into Gaza and the, the, the, you know the the way in
which the blockade is continuing.
But you. Know, you know, I think you
know, but then it also opens up the other questions.
It's like, OK, wait, so if the Popemobile was to go, is part of
the reason they don't want it togo in?
Because what would happen if it was bombed, You know, it becomes

(39:42):
more of a liability than a hospital.
And that's a very painful idea, you know, that the Popemobile is
something that needs to be kept more sacred than the hospitals
in Gaza, 50% of which I understand now are completely
non functional. You know, So again, this is

(40:07):
just, this is, this is the, you know, with all respect to the
story and the importance of the gesture, this is this is, again,
it's the, it's the flotsam. You know, it's the flotsam of of
of of where, of where we have got to right in a, in a
situation where the the simple truths of what people in Gaza

(40:31):
and in Palestine, broadly speaking, are living is
apparently no longer news. You know, I mean, I think this
week as well, though is a report, you know, another report
issued by the UN, which, you know, talks about the degree of
devastation. And of course, this is no longer
news, right? But I mean, I was reading part

(40:54):
of it on the way over. And one of the things inside it
is, it is it says, you know, apart from 70, three, 1 billion
or whatever it is in terms of reconstruction costs and
itemizing everything, it says that human development has been
put back by 77 years. And there's some part of me that
I kind of went, what does that even mean?

(41:14):
You know, 77 years is an entire lifetime of someone, you know,
And I'm sure that the, you know,the, the average life expectancy
now in Gaza is below 77 years, you know, so, so, and of course
that's not news. And, and, and then I read

(41:37):
something else where some of them are saying that, that, that
what is being, you know, what, what is happening here is the
very idea of, of time is being dissolved.
Exactly. The very idea of, of life is
being turned into something thatis below survival.

(41:59):
And then and then and, you know,and then it's the normalization
of that, you know, it's that andyou know, and that, that that
feeds into what we're doing in this section.
You know, is what we're, is whatwe're, is, is what we're
encountering here. Is, is, is this news?

(42:19):
Is this where we have to go in order to be able to talk about
what's actually happening in theworld and, and, and, and what
happens when and what happens when we normalize?
You know, it goes back to what Iwas saying earlier about the
forms of dissonance that I feel like I'm constantly living in,
which is maybe what, you know, if I'm to help you move into the

(42:42):
next segment, right? But like, but you know, in terms
of then what that, what that demands of us as artists, right?
What that demands of us as journalists, what that demands
of us as, as other, you know, aspeople working in the various
sectors of society to get beyondthe the details of what are
thrown at us like poison arrows.You know, they hit, you know,

(43:05):
they, they really hit because they hit the nerve of what is
not being accounted for, what isnot being talked of, what is
being treated as hellas it's normal.
Who cares? We agree with you, but from a
journalist point of view, I think what's also besides like
the how the headline was writtenin this passive voice I mean.
They. Couldn't even name Israel.

(43:27):
They couldn't even say Israel refused the Bob mobile from
entering Gaza as well. And if you read all of the
passage, all of the the story doesn't mention Israel.
It doesn't mention that Israel is the main reason behind behind
the the entering of this automobile going to Gaza.
But I will have to move on to the another message that came to

(43:51):
us from Gaza by our contributorsAli and Hoda, if we can play
their videos. Hello everyone, I am Alaska and.
I am Hodaska and we are both writers from Gaza City.
While you were watching our livestream on Palestine did Dive
last week, the reality here in Gaza was claiming more lives.

(44:13):
The journalist Muhammad Washaf was assassinated in his car
while he was hitting to his house which is located in South
in the South of Gaza. Just two days ago, the
journalist Ibrahim Ikhmeta was killed while he was sitting in a
cafe. Perhaps he was having a time of

(44:34):
rest and joy. Perhaps he was uploading his
reports and this reminded us of Al Baqarah massacre that was in
July in, in last July. And it's like, it's like a kind
of message from the IOF that tells us that they are still

(44:54):
here and that they suffocate us gradually and they that they
will not let us have the time ofjoy.
And last night I was in a restaurant here in a Riemann
neighborhood alongside my cousinand his friend.
We have just watched a football match and we're eating shawarma.

(45:16):
But we weren't just eating, we were calculating.
We were tense, preparing ourselves for the worse.
Because we know that in a momentthe restaurant, a car outside or
even the beside building could be bombed in a moment.
And this reminded me of what Ahmed said last week, that the

(45:41):
IUF is a death machine. It doesn't matter where you are,
a car, a restaurant, a cafe or even a hospital.
The machine doesn't stop. Yeah.
Hospitals are struggling to survive here in Gaza that there
is a few number of hospitals that are still functioning

(46:02):
currently in Gaza. There is also a huge challenge
because there is a few number ofstaff doctors have been killed,
imprisoned and also injured. We still remember Doctor Hussam
Al Safiya who is still in the Israeli prisoners until now

(46:27):
because he hasn't left his his injured people in his hospitals
and also we are only waiting forhis release.
Also Doctor Adnan and Bursch whowas killed inside the Israeli
prisoners is a great example of of the of the professional

(46:52):
doctor. Also now, currently the cancer
and also heart patients are dying slowly and the the doctors
here in Gaza are standing helplessly not knowing what to
do for them. I recently interviewed Dr.

(47:15):
Mohamed Abdelmiya, the head director of Al Shifa Hospital
and he told me that around 18,000 people are trapped in
Gaza City. They are patients and they are
waiting for medical treatment, an urgent medical treatment, to
travel abroad, to seek some medicine outside of Gaza, which

(47:40):
is not exist in Gaza. That was Huda and Ali from Gaza.
I know as a Gaza, and it might be very emotional for you every
time. You know, I don't care how we
feel right now. I know every time I hear these
same people from Gaza, share their experiences from Gaza to

(48:01):
bring back the trauma to me again and again.
But I don't care. These people we'll have always,
we will always have to listen tothese people and to listen to
their stories. I don't want to ask so much of
you to tell me. How do you feel hearing the same
stories over and over from gossip?

(48:22):
Yeah, I I heard that. Then the prayer call and it's.
Yeah. I know it feels like gossip.
But I remembered when I used to have calls, etcetera, and it
always comes and people, Oh my God, what a nice music.
And I was like, sorry, sorry, this is a prayer call.
This is Adan. So I just miss being home to be

(48:45):
honest. I miss being home.
We will talk about what home is at the end of this show, for a
Gaza and for an Egyptian and a British.
I miss not being robbed. Robbed.
Robbed like stolen while walking.
There's, you know, maybe Gaza was yes, it was constantly
bombardment I. Was dropped last week.

(49:06):
I was dropped as well, like my laptop, my backpack which was
all robbed and I reported it andno one.
But you know there. Is bother to search for my loss
of property, but I was never robbed in Gaza.
Yeah, never. There's this feeling that, you
know, you're walking in your land, you are recognized by your
people. You know, there's this sense of

(49:27):
safety, although you're bombed from time to time.
You're under military blockade. But you know, if you fall, there
will be 10s of people getting you up.
You know, if you need something,you will find help.
You know, there's this, you know, minor details, as Adinas
mentions in her book, that really opens a whole new wound

(49:51):
of what it is to be reminded by something.
And yeah, I'm reminded by Ghazalevery single day, every single
moment that passes, you think ofhome and you think of the beauty
of your people and how much theyreally cared for each other.
They stood for each other, they were there for each other.

(50:11):
They were collectives rather than individuals and.
You know, my like, I lived in Gaza for 23 or 24 years and I
don't remember we ever locked our house when.
We were, yeah. Why would we?
We don't. We feel safe anyway.
I want to talk more with you about your art, your culture and

(50:33):
your paintings and all of it. But I have just to remind our
audience, if you are enjoying this, this show, please don't
forget to hit the like button and subscribe to our YouTube.
And if you want to support our work, we warmly welcome you to
donate as little as £1.00 a month.
Our support helps us build independent Palestinian LED

(50:55):
media in a world which has neverneeded it more.
Find the link in the descriptionbelow and I'm back to you Malik
again. We started this chat show
talking about the art in in the in our studio.
As you can see, we have Malik here, Malik there, Malik here,
Malik here. There I'm.
I'm so flattered. Thank you.

(51:17):
Four out of six or seven paintings in our studio are
yours. We, we, we, we love that.
We, I really appreciate you allowing your sort of artwork in
our studio. So thank you very much.
I want to talk a little bit about some of these paintings.

(51:37):
And also Khalid is an artist in his own way.
You're a singer, for God's sake.Beautiful voice and you can do
piano. You're an actor, playwright,
amazing. So we would really love to you
to weigh in in this conversation.
Please don't feel we want to talk about this painting, Malek.

(52:04):
And I believe you called it lastnight in Gaza.
This one, Yes. Tell me about it.
All right. So I went to Gaza in 2021 in
March, and I stayed there for seven months following the May
attack of 2021. And I painted this as a last

(52:24):
night in Gaza because it was literally the last night I
stayed in Gaza before and I was heading to Egypt.
And I was extremely concerned because crossing the border is
one of the most traumatic experiences of my life.
And I wanted regardless of the fear that I had of crossing, of

(52:45):
facing this days in the border and all of this troubles, I
still wanted to end in a good note and paint the beautiful
things that is very strongly connected to Gaza, like the
sunbirds and the sunset. And I live just next to the sea
and Mediterranean Sea. So I would see the waves, I

(53:06):
would see the sun coming in and out.
So this is. So what Khalid?
This is what distinguished Malikever since we knew her is the
colourful art that she produces.It's really beautiful.
That's how we we knew Malik. And then suddenly.

(53:26):
I feel, yeah. Yeah, the genocide happened and
then Malik went missing. She did not go missing.
My talent went missing. And then her art, it changed
dramatically. And this question is both of you
actually the the following art is, I call it Gaza's Garnica.
Yeah. But it's not called Gaza's

(53:48):
Garnica, yeah. It's absolutely not.
So from all of these colourful paintings, then we go to this
painting that changed your way of art.
I think this was the first time I see a painting for Malek that
is in black and, and, and white and it's massive.
It's like massive, not small. And it says a lot.

(54:11):
My question to you, sorry, before you comment on it, this
is we call it Gaza's Garnica because it's similar to
Picasso's Garnica, who is a bitter artist.
Oh my God, tell me. Tell me honest opinion.
No, I'm not going to answer, youknow, but literally because I

(54:35):
mean, I'm not going to answer itbecause of the comparative is,
is, is, you know, but but the, the question for me is what is
Melek holding for us all at thismoment as what was Picasso
holding at the moment of Guernica?
And the question is, is, are we individually and collectively as
artists trying to respond to themoment?

(54:56):
And are we trying to find ways to, to relate to it?
And do we manage to achieve, to create something that speaks?
And for me, all of these paintings do, yes.
You know, and I'm and I'm alwaysstruck in Melek's, in Melek's

(55:16):
paintings personally by the factthat there is very often a very
direct gaze. Yes.
From some aspect of the painting, if not multiple
aspects of the painting. And to me, it's always looking
at me, asking the question, do you see me?

(55:36):
What are you going to do? Wow.
Can you, can you hold and, and see what I see?
It's, you know, and the more I'mactually being in the studio,
there's this, you know, one of the times that the thoughts come
to me most clearly because I have a painting over there
looking at me and the eyes are generally slightly larger than,

(56:03):
you know, than the actual anatomical eye.
And that eye is asking me a question.
And there's always a kind of, for me, there's always a
gentleness as well in that eye, which is, which has a kind of
beautiful humanity to her. And it's interesting even
looking at the last painting, you know, I was reflecting on

(56:30):
the question, what would it be? You know, the painting is called
Last Night in Gaza. What would it be if it was first
night in Gaza? You know, and, and at some
level, what's being held in thatsun, you know, whether it's a
dawn or whether it's a sunset, Right.

(56:54):
And the desire of what's. Yeah.
I mean, for me, what I see in terms of what it's holding in a
dream, right? In terms of what what the figure
in the middle is being envelopedin and the desire to to hold

(57:14):
what you love about the land, what you love about the country,
what you love about the people, what you love about the history,
what you love about you know andwhat you can see that maybe
others can't. And of course, the contrast
between the two paintings or these two periods is, is very

(57:35):
strong and clear, even if you don't know, don't feel confident
to speak about art, you know, because I think everyone, it's
about it's, you know, I think every, what you, how people
respond to an artwork is, is always valid.
And I think very often we're, we're taught to, to, you know,
to feel that our responses are not valid without a certain

(57:59):
level of education or whatever it is.
And I just think that's not true.
But you know, the very basic thing when you see the, you
know, you, you see the colour here and you see the, you see
what's the love that is being tried, You know, that is being
communicated in its relationshipwith the title.
And then you see the other image.

(58:20):
And it is after what, as far as I can tell, was your last night
in Gaza, which has a whole story.
I don't know. And I know that I don't know how
you want to how you want to share your relationship with
painting after you after you left.
But it it, you know, I don't seeit.

(58:41):
You know, I would read it and not go, Oh, this is a conscious
decision. You know, thinking of my blue
period and my black period. No.
It was just like how do? I that rational?
Yeah. Yeah, you know, when I look at
this painting, when I saw it forthe first time, I saw myself in
it, inside it. You know this word?
Oh wallet, that's what I was saying all day and night.

(59:04):
And you should translate for. Yes, it's.
Been a long. It's been a long time.
It took so long. And we mean the genocide after
two years of genocide, we were saying as Palestinians.
It's gone on too long. It's.
Gone on, it's gone. On too long, That's the right
to. Translate.
It was written in Derrel Bella. Exactly where I am from in
December. 2023 so it's only like2-3 months into the genocide and

(59:30):
it was really too much. So every time I look back and I
was like, what, what have we survived so far?
Which is immense. But I have to share like the
fight, it was the fight that we,as you know, generation of
artists faced in the making of art, which is first, first and
foremost, the lack of material. And I call this systematic

(59:53):
because especially after the attacks on Gaza, the canvas
suddenly disappears. The art stores are bombed
entirely. Art paints are not allowed.
Some art paints like the black is not in.
But why is the black band? Oh, but you know, they are
afraid it will be used for bombs.
Now. It's like it doesn't make any
sense. We're painters.

(01:00:15):
But you know, being an artist inthe Gaza Strip, you are seen as
a person of intellect and mission.
You're seen as a person resisting the occupation.
Throughout the decades of, you know, of art making and the
artistry, artists would go to jail because of what they have
painted. You know, artists would cover

(01:00:36):
their painting, which holds a political theme with a landscape
scene, peaceful, nothing triggering, nothing, so they
could travel through the borderswith it without being
confiscated. So you grew up and I had, you
know, and I was privileged to grow up in a family where my
maternal uncle, my mum's maternal uncle as well, they

(01:00:58):
were both artists who made art or taught art in the Gaza Strip.
So I got to see what it is to make art in the 60s, seventies,
and what it is to make it in early 2000 and what really the
difficulties could be combined as suppression.
You could not travel, you could not exhibit this, you could not

(01:01:19):
go to Jerusalem. And I also had a taste of that
because I was not allowed exit for my exhibitions.
I was not allowed to go to Jerusalem for a group
exhibition. I was invited in.
So you live in a complete blockade and part of it is
cultural because there is vibrant art culture, cultural

(01:01:40):
scene, for example in Ramallah, in Jerusalem, etcetera, but you
are completely cut off from whatis going on from the residences.
But as artists we always find found ways to put things
together, to make an exhibition,to rent out a place and call it
a residency for young artists toexperiment.
There was nothing like impossible.

(01:02:02):
So I know an artist, we've exhibited once together.
She couldn't afford the art paints, so she went into spices
as a cheaper alternative. She went into henna, she went
into tea and coffee. So and most recent in the
genocide, there was no canvas. So what artist would do?
They would use the cardboard of the aid boxes in turning them

(01:02:25):
into self portraits and portraits of people.
This one of this artist straightASA, he's one of the artist who
really documented the genocide by whatever he could find
available. So having studied in a leading
art institution, my master's at Central St.
Martin's, and I think of my experience growing up with

(01:02:48):
almost nothing, but still managed to have the strong, the
longest CV in Gaza of exhibitions, group exhibitions.
I just came to the conclusion that there is so much the world,
especially the art world, has tolearn from the Gaza scene, which
is you occupy us, you put us in a cage, you prevent us from

(01:03:08):
having art pains, you kill our artist, you kill and you destroy
the art centers, the heritage, the culture.
Rashad Shahwa Centre and Mishal Theatre, which was one of the
main theatres in Gaza. But we still rise and we still
continue to make works and we still continue to tell the
story, which is a strong part ofour fight as people, which is

(01:03:31):
through any means of culture. And as of next week, there is
going to be the biggest exhibition to ever be held after
the genocide by 65 artists. A lot of them are emerging.
They have just started becoming artists during the genocide.
So I. Think.
It will be in a low style break in the middle.

(01:03:52):
Exactly. And a lot of these artists,
you've never heard of them because they are 1516 years old,
who went into art as a way of survival, but as a way of
resisting this complete suppression and despair.
So coming from this background, I just feel extremely privileged
to have witnessed that, to have fought that, to have also worked

(01:04:14):
with artists in exhibitions where budget was not really the
biggest concern, where the the place was not a concern.
One of the exhibitions I took place in it was at the port, the
Gaza port. So it was basically you bring
your work and we give you the easel and you just exhibit it.
And we would have hundreds of people coming every day to see

(01:04:37):
the work. So there was a strong culture
and strong scene that was kept, that kept rising.
Can I ask you, can I ask you in that context about your impulse
to art or your impulse to a painting?
Because I think, you know, very often, you know, people think of
it as some kind of abstract response to events.

(01:05:02):
Oh, I'm going to paint a painting because these things
are going to go are going on, and therefore I'm going to make
it this way. Whereas my, my experience of the
artistic impulse is not that. And so, you know, and what
you're talking about here in terms of the variety of
different artists, right, in thecontext of genocide, their
impulse to produce are where foryou does it come from?

(01:05:27):
And also how do you read it in others?
Yeah, so I will. I remember the first impulse to
make art, which was in 2014, andI was only 14 years old.
And I saw the scene of my neighbor being pulled from the
rubble, killed. And I just felt like now is the
moment I make because I might die, I might live, but this is

(01:05:51):
what will get me through what I'm seeing.
So I started making the stitchesout of Freddy escaping and
survival. So that was my first impulse.
But now the more I paint, it's more about I'm just aware of how
much there is strong techniques to erase us as people, to erase

(01:06:11):
the narrative, to erase the museums, to erase the artist who
are making art. And I feel like it's my
commitment and mission for us not to be erased, to persevere
our memory as much as we can so the next generation of the
Palestinians could look at what we've produced as artists and
understand what happened, what we've been through.

(01:06:34):
And that's exactly how I connected with an ATPA in 48.
If there hasn't been the paintings of Suleiman Mansour,
of Ismail Shammoud, of the mammal Akhad, who've literally
painted what they've been through and how they became
refugees in 1948, I wouldn't have understood the tensity,
understood the visuals, what exactly happened through these

(01:06:58):
scenes? Before I forget touching on
this, we have a painting here behind me of hippos quote,
Hippos quote. Her story break breaks my heart.
Actually. She's in our previous studio.
We had so many of her paintings here in the studio, but people
don't know that during the genocide she was killed, yes,
you know, And we wanted to buy some of her art and put it in

(01:07:20):
our studio. We messaged her Instagram page
and her husband responded exactly.
And he said you can take what whatever you want.
You can take it for free. He didn't even charge us.
But Heba is not the only artist who was scouted during
Indigenous. Science among so many people.
One among so many artists who you knew.
Yeah. Tell me about some of them very

(01:07:41):
quickly please. Yes, so Heba's a quote is an
artist I connected with online through Facebook and I could say
she's she was one of the most prolific artists of her
generation of her time. She focused in her work on
painting the cities she could only dream of visiting and not

(01:08:04):
being able to visit like Jerusalem, Nablus, Khalid.
So her work was mostly focused on the cities, the towns, the
villages, but also the family connection, the motherhood.
And she painted a self-portrait of herself and her four children
playing together. And I recall this painting so
vividly. It was yellow and she was

(01:08:25):
playing with her kids. And unfortunately, she was
killed early on in the genocide.I recall one of the artist that
I'm I'm so moved by Muhammad Samarkare.
He was only 24 years old when hewas killed.
And he was one of the artist whowas known to be very active in

(01:08:45):
the society through activities, through trying to distract
children from the tensity of bombardments.
And the last scene of him was inthe Baptist hospital and he was
killed alongside the children during the massacre that took
place at the Baptist Rahama Rasam.
He was one of the artist I had agroup exhibition in He was a

(01:09:08):
newly married. He started his life in a tent
and he was killed and he reported the last moments of his
of his murder. Although Fatima Hassuna was a
different profession from what Idid, she was a filmmaker.
But what really strikes me is they all of these artists share

(01:09:31):
the same age as me, 242526 and Ijust feel strongly like they
should have had the chance to bealive and make their work just
the way I did myself. And she was killed.
Fatima. Why does Israeli kill artists?
What is the military objective behind killing artists in Gaza?

(01:09:54):
I mean, I'm the question is why,you know, Israel is killing all
aspects of Palestinian society. Why killing Palestinians?
To me, artists are part of society in the same way as
plumbers, or in the same way as carpenters, or in the same way
as doctors. There is no differentiation.

(01:10:18):
You know, what we've seen is, you know, the word genocide
attached to every single form ofprofession or society, You know,
whether it's ecocide or whether it's cultural side or whether
it's educide or whether it's, you know, because it's the
complete erasure. And that's what we see with,

(01:10:38):
with all settler colonial projects.
The, you know, I, I was, I have one of the things that I've done
recently is, is record the audiobook for AL Weitzman's new book
on grounding the architecture ofthe architecture of genocide.

(01:10:59):
And you know, this concept of ungrounding, right?
Where literally, I mean, he calls it a war on the subsoil of
Gaza. It's not just on the buildings,
it's not just the surface, it's the subsoil, you know, and
that's from all, you know, that that reflects all aspects of of

(01:11:22):
society as it does the literal soil, you know, in terms of what
it would take for the soil to grow an olive tree in the future
and how that has a systematic history in relation to what was
done to Wedi Hezza, you know, inthat area that used to be the
bread basket of the whole of Palestine.

(01:11:44):
But in terms of, you know, what's been done to the water,
you know, it's, it's all these kinds of things.
So if I can, if I can reframe your question, it's it's it's
not so much why, it's also what,what happens when a generation
of artists is destroyed, You know, is, is assassinated, is

(01:12:09):
killed. What how is that that that is an
assault on that is an assault aswell on forms of witness,
because what are artists, you know, in the same way as what,
what is in this? You know, what is it to kill
that many journalists, right? That's, that is killing a
relationship with the news, the information, the narrative that

(01:12:30):
is able to come out now, right? Artists, some of some of us have
an ability or desire to be able to respond in the moment.
The part of what our work is is to, to try and respond with
narratives and stories and reflections that that, that
aren't that that put the now in a contextual, you know, put them

(01:12:55):
in lots of different frameworks of thought and require a
different form of thinking or require a different form of, of,
of, of, of form, you know, in order to do it.
You know, you know, there have, you know, there are structural
reasons. There are obvious reasons why

(01:13:16):
there have not been many fictionfilms that have been made in
Gaza over the last two years, you know, and of course there
have been amazing films that have been made in Palestinian
films that have been made outside.
But, you know, so it, it, it is an assault on, on, on the
ability of a culture to, you know, to, to achieve its

(01:13:43):
potential. Which is why when we see the
work of people like Malak and otherwise or all of these
artists who have managed to continue to work out of a need
in Gaza, we're seeing, you know,we're seeing the evidence of
near miracles, which are all themore precious for their ability

(01:14:05):
of what they're able, what they're able to capture.
Yes. And yes, at the same time, it's
so painful, yes, to to know, youknow, the extent of what is
what, what has been lost, what has been ungrounded.
But. If I may add very briefly, yes,
please, that, you know, especially in our region, there

(01:14:27):
is a history of assassinations against people who are poets,
intellects, or some of them are like poets, but also political
leaders. And I recall what Nigel Ali has
said. If you want to paint or draw or
write about Palestine, consider yourself dead.
And I think so much of Doctor Rufatlarayir, who I've had the

(01:14:52):
honour of collaborating with in the book Light in Gaza.
And I think of how many times they have threatened him, chased
him and tried to kill him till they killed him in December
2023. So coming from growing up in
Gaza, you just know the real value of a painting because you

(01:15:14):
know that artist have been imprisoned by simply painting
the colours of the flag, green, white, black and red.
For example, in the 80s there was a collective exhibitions
Sliman Mansour Hassan, better other were a part of it.
It was shot because the artists were painting of like painting

(01:15:35):
figures with the flags, the colour of the flags.
And that's how about, of course,because the the watermelon.
Carries culture. And, and I guess there's, you
know, I mean, this is an important thing to say about it.
You know, the, the, the war, andI'm talking about the long war
here, not not against Palestine,which of course includes the

(01:15:57):
genocide, right, but depends on the dehumanization of
Palestinians and Arabs more broadly speaking, but the
dehumanization of Palestinians. But to go back to your question,
why attack? Why attack artists, right?
Art is always a symbol of humanity.
Exactly, you know, and it pierces through.

(01:16:19):
That's why it is so dangerous tothe, you know, the propaganda
Israeli project against Palestine, right?
It's one of the reasons that artists are so dangerous within
that context, because immediately if an artist can
make you cry, or if an artist can make you laugh or an artist
can make you feel inspired and you know, they are part of the

(01:16:41):
depth of that culture, then it makes entirely clear.
When you kill, when you decimate, when you commit
genocide, when you you know, then it makes entirely clear
what is being destroyed, what isbeing attacked.
It is a people, but it is not numbers, you know.
Talking about numbers and art and something that deeply,

(01:17:03):
deeply moved me. Is your latest song a simple
song? Can we watch a segment of that
song and talk a little bit aboutit, please?

(01:17:23):
This is a simple song, a simple song.
This is a simple song about simple things.
A simple song about simple things.

(01:17:45):
A simple song about simple things.
The child is killed. The child is killed.
The child is killed. So many killed.

(01:18:05):
This is a simple song. A simple song.
A simple song about simple things.
Who was that child? What was that story?

(01:18:25):
What when they say they were here today?
This is a simple song. This Yeah, it it was cut short.
It's the full song is very beautiful, but it's because we
have only 10 minutes before we finish the unfortunately, the

(01:18:47):
chat show. When I watched the video, all of
it, and I saw the thousands and thousands of children's clothes
on the beach, it struck me in myheart.
So I want to ask you what were tell me about the song first and
how did you feel watching this video after it was recorded?

(01:19:08):
Yeah, what it inspired it. Yeah.
I mean, it's funny you call it my latest song.
It's my only song, song and onlysong.
I mean, you know, there are other songs that I've, you know,
that I've been in my life, but this is the only song that has
come out of me into the public and a year ago and was when I

(01:19:36):
released this into the world. And, you know, we were speaking
earlier about the need or the impulse.
And as you know, as most people know who know me, I'm mainly
known as an actor working in film and theatre.

(01:19:57):
I never expected myself for a song.
To come out of me. But part of what happened was it
was in January of last year, soon after that ceasefire was
called. And then there was this rise in

(01:20:26):
devastation. And I was so in pain at what
people in Gaza and Palestine hadto face after everything they
had already been through, that in my attempt to just feel how I

(01:20:52):
was feeling, a song started to come out of me.
And those songs turned into a tune.
And I have a relationship with the piano, so I went to it.
And then within two days, I had this song that was responding to

(01:21:14):
the idea of complexity that is constantly thrown at us and at
Palestinians, that this is complex.
And so from this simple song comes this question.
You know, who was that child? What would they say if they were

(01:21:34):
here today? And I continue and I tell the
story as I believe they would say it.
And also, you know, then kind ofwell, if you want peace, give me
justice and the occupation, share the land, one law for all
of us and no more walls. There are simple, there are
simple ways of of condensing this.

(01:21:56):
And so it kind of required that.And actually one of the
interesting things you talk about the video that actually
draws us together, the the videois made by lead by donkeys.
And you know, one of the figuresin that was part of the Together
for Palestine concert. And there is this way in which
all of these roads kind of lead us to each other.

(01:22:26):
And you know, for me, it's part of the, yeah, it's part of the
vulnerability of it all as well.Tell me about your
politicisation. I remember in one of your
speeches or interviewed you saidthe earliest protests you
participated in and you shouted the free Palestine when you were
three years old. Is that true?

(01:22:48):
Yes, I mean, I, so both my father and grandfather were
political prisoners on the left in Egypt.
I come from a family of I come from a family of struggle.
It's part of what resulted in mebeing born in Scotland, as you
can tell from my accent. We moved down to London.
Well, I'm joking. I'm joking.

(01:23:08):
That's the joke, right? But I moved down, we moved down
to London when I was when I was four and my, you know, my first
protest was on my father's shoulders for Palestine.
You know, and, and you know, oneof the things about growing up
as an Arab in a country like, like Britain is that you as

(01:23:34):
opposed to, had I grown up in Egypt, in which most of the
people around me would just be Egyptian, right?
You grow up really as an Arab. And I grew up with Palestinians,
I grew up with Iraqis, I grew upwith Syrians, I grew up with,
you know, with people from across the region.
But, you know, Palestine has always been at the core of my

(01:23:56):
experience of what it is to be an Arab in this world.
I sometimes say, and I believe it.
You know, Palestine is what mademe an Arab, is what makes me an
Arab. Wow.
And it sits as a crucial part ofthe compass of how you interpret

(01:24:21):
the world around you and the. Distance on your artistic
journey being an Arab in in movies and or in drama.
Well, yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, obviously I, I, so I
graduated from university in 2003, the year of the war in
Iraq. 911 has already happened. So I start my life as an actor

(01:24:46):
in a world in which I'm being looked at in the shadows of 911.
I've already lived through Kuwait.
I've already lived through the Intifada.
I've already lived through all of these, all of you know, all
of these mediatized forms of violence as well on the idea of
what it is to be an Arab. And so the question that I faced

(01:25:07):
throughout my life and career in, in film and theatre is how
are you going to relate to that form of, of representation?
Are you going to go with the tide of its dehumanization, or
are you going to fight that in the various ways that you can?
Part of that is in choosing projects, and then the other

(01:25:28):
part is in when you're in certain projects, how are you
going to negotiate with them, toimprove them or to make them
better representations? And then comes the other
question of then what projects are you going to make and who
are you going to collaborate with and at what points are you
going to be working on this sideof the world?
And at what points are you goingto be working on the other side

(01:25:49):
of the world? Because I have also had, you
know, significant periods working in Egypt, so.
I want to ask you before we run out of time, so many people
recognised you for your role in The Crown as Dodel Fayed and
that was a major role that you took in that series.
I watched it and I was amazed with your with the character

(01:26:09):
that you played. Can you tell me more about that
troll and why did you take it? Especially it it came at the
time where the genocide wasn't going, so it was special at that
time. Well, no, I mean, the story I
always tell, and it's really important in relation to me
playing Dodi because it's not what I expected at the
beginning, is that, you know, the the Dodi and Dianna season

(01:26:36):
came out at the, you know, in November of 2023 when the
genocide was, you know, really unfolding.
And I didn't realize until I wasreally faced with the question,

(01:26:57):
what are you going to do? That Dodi is the first character
I can think of in the history offilm on this side of the world,
who you get to, who's an Arab, who you get to know and love,
not fear. And so when he died, you mourn

(01:27:18):
him. And this says, you know, this,
this it screams out in the context of a genocide in which
thousands of thousands of peopleare being killed as if they are
ungrievable and unmournable. And what the failure in

(01:27:42):
representation of Arabs, generally speaking, within
culture and media, how it then affects the ability to mourn,
the ability to see, the ability to humanize.
And so, you know, my, my journeywith Dodi, there are many things
that we can talk about in relation to it, but I hadn't

(01:28:06):
because so the, the, The funny thing is that at, at first I had
no like Dodie, why me? It's crazy like, but that's it.
Everyone kind of, and, and there's a, there's this, there
are stories in relation to that.But but I realized even in the
process of taking the role, there are things that I didn't

(01:28:26):
know, you know, even though we've seen his image for 25
years or so, you know, magazine stands and all over standing
next to Diana, the question is, what does he sound like?
What do we know about him other than who his father is?
And there's hardly anything. And again, that goes back to
these kind of questions of of, you know, structural racial

(01:28:46):
injustice, right? What kinds of questions are
asked and what aren't? But as I say, I had no idea
because I realized at the beginning of taking on the role
when I confirmed, because this was one of the big questions at
the beginning. Is it going to be a role that is
given the dignity of a proper character?

(01:29:07):
Or is it a role in which she's sort of going to appear as a bit
of eye candy and be kind of meaningless because the real
event is Diana. And the fact that, you know,
Peter Morgan and the makers of the Crown were going to give the
Fayed family, you know, the space to be explored meant, OK,

(01:29:28):
here is a massive cultural opportunity that I recognize.
And, you know, and I obviously had a whole team of people in
the amazing city of dull and, and others, you know, in terms
of, in terms of understanding the scale of this opportunity,
because it's very rare that these kinds of resources are put

(01:29:48):
in the direction of storytellingthat have Arab characters also
at their centre. So I, I understood, I understood
its value right from there, but I'd never expected that it would
then put me in the circumstancesof understanding this fact that
I was talking about earlier thatI had never, you know, of, of

(01:30:09):
him as one of the first mournable, grievable bodies
stories in the history of, you know, whatever you want to call
it, Western Hollywood film and the rarity of that.
And, and then for me, that created the, you know, the
circumstances of these various, you know, red carpets or

(01:30:33):
cultural events in which I wouldrupture through with, you know,
the words that I wrote on my hands and the various
interviews. And, and also, and I think this
is a crucial thing, discovering in turn the, the, the circles of
solidarity that exists that are far wider than than what I

(01:30:53):
expected. And, you know, there's a whole
story that you could draw again from that in relation to the
moment of together for Palestine.
And also then where we are now, right in this moment in which,
OK, a form of silence has been broken.
And yet there are attempts to reassert it now and also

(01:31:20):
questions for us broadly speaking, as a generation, OK,
if there has been a shift in consciousness and people have
declared an alliance with wanting to to move in a, in a
direction towards justice and then what do we do about it?

(01:31:42):
What kind of work do we make? And one thing I want to, I also
want to mention, because it's, it's important this, this Nakba
on the 14th of May in the, in the Troxy together with health
workers for Palestine and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign in

(01:32:03):
Mahsam. There is an event in
commemoration of, of the Nakba in, in which the war and soul
band, Nosar Igberi and a whole range of, of magnificent artists
and particularly as well Palestinian LED are, are going
to be there. And, and, and here is this,

(01:32:24):
this, this, this question because we're moving towards the
80th anniversary of the Nakba in, in two years, right?
And and you know, everything in this conversation has, you know,
is, is, is, is this concept of the ongoing Nakba, right?

(01:32:44):
Part of the trauma, as I understand it, of these last two
years is this generational experience that it's a privilege
for me to sit on watching you guys talk about.
But it's so painful of you reliving the images of your
parents and grandparents, right?And now we're at this moment

(01:33:06):
where the world is beginning to see and understand that, right?
The Nakabat as an experience that is, that has its own
particularity, that has a relationship between the early
set, the colonialism project leading towards the genocide and

(01:33:27):
this moment of expansion with genocide.
You know, and I think for us collectively as as as artists,
whether we are Palestinian or whether we are Arab but not
Palestinian or whether we are from other backgrounds, you
know, the various allies and alliances.

(01:33:49):
What stories do we tell? What images do we make?
What forms of gathering can we can can we hold as part of
regenerating from this ungrounding?
I have a a small question like what's your view of this amount

(01:34:09):
of acknowledgement of recent films about Palestine like the
voice of him treasure, Is this apositive thing or is it a
passive? Like, what's your take on this
acknowledgement, the prizes, thestanding ovation?
If we can do it very, very in less than one minute, yeah.
Because you have to. Also take it, Yeah.

(01:34:31):
I mean the basic. Cautious of time.
Yeah, sure. I mean the, the, I mean, the
basic answer is of course it's positive, but of it's, of course
it's positive. The, it's not a however, it's an
and right. There is no silver bullet.
There is no one project that solves everything.

(01:34:51):
What we need is more and more projects.
What we need is a whole ecology of different things and
different art forms and different spaces fighting, you
know, fighting for the change that we need to see.
And I see these projects and theway in which they have been
received as again, projects thatpoint the compass towards where

(01:35:15):
we could go and the solidaritiesand the alliances, you know, I
mean, as you all have seen in Together for Palestine.
Otherwise, like backstage, part of what I felt was like I felt
like I was seeing change happening in slow motion.
It was a monitor. How people come together, and
that's what all of these things are.
Yeah, my guys, I really wanted to talk about so many other

(01:35:35):
things. I want to talk about Together
for Palestine, which you both organize.
I want to talk about the depiction of the Palestinians
and the Arabs and Hollywood and the drama and so many other
things. But unfortunately, we ran out of
time. And I know you have an
appointment had it, so we'll have to end it here.
Thank you very, very much. Thank you very much.
Thank you for having. Us and again, I just want to say

(01:35:55):
it's an honour. It's our own expense.
With you lie here and. Hearing you speak together and
hearing the way in which you hold the Gaza, you know.
It's very dearly, yeah. Yeah, it's a real honour.
Thank you very much and please thank you very much for watching
this show. If you watch it at all, Thank

(01:36:16):
you very much. If not, watch it and watch our
previous chat shows and see you next week inshallah at 7:00 PM
Wednesday. Next time will be with Helen Sha
Allah. Thank you very much again.
Rest of luck to Hala on her doctorate.
And rest of luck to Hala for herPhD Thank you very much and bye

(01:36:36):
bye.