Why the Green Party Must REJECT Zionism

Welcome to the world’s first Palestinian chat show! Palestinian journalists from Gaza Ahmed Alnaouq and Hala Hanina are joined in the studio by Palestinian artist and activist Lubna Speitan and political economist and author Dr Ashok Kumar.

They’ll be discussing why the Green Party must become the first major party in the UK to be proudly anti-Zionist, as well as the latest news from the ground in the Palestine and the wider region.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
There's no middle ground, there's no liberal Zionism, none
of that nonsense. You're either with the struggle
or you're against the struggle, and especially it's intensified
during a genocide. What do you mean that it could
be slightly better? They're murdering, mass
murdering people every day, havechildren every day.
You're either with the Nazis or you're against the Nazis.

(00:21):
You're either with the Zionists or you're against the Zionists.
That's it. And every person, wherever their
politics, whether you're right or left wing, is in everybody's
interest to oppose and reject Zionism and the way it has also
occupied our system, state repression, our basic civil
liberties are now on the line, our right of freedom of speech
and protest or else also at risk.
Recently declassified revealed that over 2000 British nationals

(00:44):
fought in the Israeli army in the genocide.
And now I live in a country where possibly, maybe the one
who killed my family is a British national who lives here.
He might be my neighbor. Yeah, it's great.
It's it's Bento. It's crazy.
Hello and welcome back to Palestine Deep Dive, the world's
first Palestinian chat show. For our 4th episode, we're

(01:07):
joined by two brilliant guests, award-winning Palestinian artist
Lobnus Vitan and political economist and author Doctor
Ashok Kumar. We're so glad to have both of
you here in the studio. Before we get into the
conversation, here is a quick roundup of what's coming up in
today's show. We'll be taking a closer look at
the Green Party and asking whether it could become a

(01:29):
genuine political vehicle for Palestinian liberation in the
UK. We will also be discussing the
situation on the ground in Palestine as Israel's genocide
continues, even if at a slower pace.
Then we'll zoom out to the widergeopolitical picture, including
the BPS soaring profits amid theUS Israeli war of aggression on

(01:51):
Iran. And finally, today marks the
important moment in Palestine history.
On the 29th of April 1948, the Palestine Act was enacted,
bringing the British Mandate period to an end, a period which
set the stage for the ongoing Zionist oppression of the
Palestinians today. Thank you very much for joining

(02:13):
us. Well, before we start, I want to
say congratulations to Hala. Last time she couldn't be with
us because she was completing her PhD.
So today Hala is a doctor. Hala.
Yeah, I was. I was having my Viva in
Newcastle University and I believe it was more stressful
than the situation here. Then Handela.
I successfully passed my Viva. Amazing.

(02:35):
Thank you. So Hala is now a doctor, but she
was also a doctor before. She's a dentist.
I'm a dentist. Hala is a dentist and she has a.
Yeah. PhD, MD.
Yeah, in sociology and politics.So yeah.
And now she's a journalist. What's?
The next degree going to be. I don't know.
It depends on Palestine what they need.
Palestine, it changed the courseof her career.

(02:58):
You know, to be a dentist is a really prestigious job.
But Hala, because she's very principled and ethical, she said
not a dentist. I want to be a political
activist. Yeah.
I hope I am. So congratulations.
Thank you so much. Ahmed, there is a lot we need to
discuss today. And because both of you are

(03:19):
party members of the Green Party, I want to start by asking
you, Lobna, about this motion that you drafted, Zionism.
Zionism is racism. Can you tell us about it?
So the short of it, I joined theparty in actual fact to support
some other members writing a motion on the IHRA yeah, trying

(03:42):
to reject that. And I brought with it my
expertise and studies on why we should also be opposing the JDA,
which is the. Jerusalem, yeah.
And from that I was told to helpdraft the motion, which I
offered my expertise on. They said you have to be a
member of this party. So the short bit like many of
us, we joined up for your party and then decided, OK, until they

(04:06):
got off the ground, let's prepare the ground somewhere
else. At least there's a foundation
built and ready. And I joined and after I did, it
was they'd already established aposition where they declared his
role in apartheid state committing genocide.
And in my time there, we at a conference passed a motion that

(04:27):
declared the Iowa as a terroristagency.
They asked the UK to apologise for Balfour declaration and to
support BDS. And last October?
Yeah, so on that I asked, OK, Sowhat position does this party
take then? One state, 2 state.
And he said, oh, it's down to the Palestinians to decide, OK,
no Palestinian wants to live with the of their oppressor on

(04:49):
their throats. So what?
What do you think we want? So I read the policy which
actually actually stated it was down to the Israelis and
Palestinians to decide. So now we have to negotiate the
terms of our oppression or liberation with our oppressors.
I said, OK, how does we need to address this?
So I got together other Palestinians in the party prior
to that. I've been doing a lot of work

(05:10):
anyway in the unions and other places, drafting model
resolutions. So I brought with it several
points and it was based on the the tenants of Palestinian
tenants. And it's first, which wasn't
part of the tenants, but it's toacknowledge the racist root
corps and ideology that this occupation and oppression and
genocide is built upon. And that is Zionism.

(05:30):
You cannot address a problem just like as a doctor with no
you cannot treat a problem without establishing first its
root core. So this is the point of the
motion. So the demands are in short to
declare the party and anti Zionist party, to reject the
normalisation of the subjugationof Palestinian voices.
We did include definitions, but it was ruled out only on a

(05:52):
technical basis, not because of the To support the establishment
of a single democratic Palestinian state with equal
rights for all and the right of return for all Palestinians and
their descendants. To support and affirm our right
to self determination, to resistby all available means unto
national law, accountability, reparations for the D

(06:16):
prescription of Palestine actionand to support the demands of
prisoners of Palestine. And of course, the call for the
release of our prisoners, our Palestinian prisoners of
conscience, including Malwan Mogulty.
So this is basic. This is a basic requirement for
any, any party that's opposing, yeah, supporting any oppressed
people's rights to liberation. A party are supposed to be

(06:37):
supporting equality. And of course, it was very
popular. Actually.
We put this forward. We thought, OK, the first thing
in the bottom line is we have toaddress the narrative.
It's very important that this isconfronted not just in the
party, but without out of the party as well.
It's a movement, a growing one, and it garnered mass support
from the party. It had a record-breaking number

(06:59):
of Co proposers that supported the motion, gained huge momentum
and support and. Beautiful.
So what happened in the conference in the spring?
Right. So it's it's popularity.
Unfortunately there are like in most parties you're like, we'll
see the Labour episode, we'll probably get on to that.
But unfortunately there are Zionists within the party who

(07:22):
have filibustered conference. They've been attacking this
motion since it was brought withfalse attacks, accusations of
anti-Semitism reported to UK LFI.
Now this this motion was draftedwith first and foremost
Palestinians. This is our voices at the table
and it also had legal input as well as support from our anti

(07:45):
Zionist Jewish allies who support our liberation and want
to reject and detach themselves as Jewish people from being
associated with a racist genocide.
Exactly, so unfortunately the Zionists is a small but vocal
group of Zionists that have thisbeen dominating a group called

(08:07):
the Jewish Greens. So most of the Jews in the party
who oppose Israel don't have a space.
So they've been working with us.But the Zionists instead,
they've reported us to counter terror police UKLFI.
We've had legal signs, so we're not worried about the legality,
but it's the the ill lows that they'd stooped to And since they
didn't have a ground to stand onlegally anyway, it's gone to the

(08:27):
counter terror police, allegations of anti-Semitism,
reporting us to the Israeli embassy, the right wing press
who've had a field day with this, the British board of
deputy of Jews, the advisor to and Semitism to Keir Starmer,
Israeli minister. We've had them all come in for a
motion which was put forward in a democratic process, exercising

(08:49):
our democratic right in a membership in a member LED party
in process, right. So it's passed SoC it's all
within the legal remit. But no, here we're we're still
being attacked. And then it got to conference
when we saw an overwhelming support of numbers again in the
conference who rejected an attempt to rule the motion out
of order. In our majority.
We supported hearing the motion and voting in order.

(09:12):
When they saw this, it just got from bad to worse.
First there were technical issues that went on for about 3
hours. Then filibustered it with votes
of no confidence in the chair like 7 times, dragging out other
people's motions and attacking that just to ensure us wasn't
heard. I mean, it got to the time OK,
People request an extension justso that we would be heard.
It's like all day of doing this and.

(09:33):
Now we're expecting that would happen in August.
Yeah, that motion. Discussion.
October is the next one coming, the next conference.
And so we're now preparing and pushing back against the tax
because now a witch hunt is taking place and they're
attacking, suspending members. It is.
Yeah. Ashok, where are you at the at
the conference? Well, I was at the anti fascist

(09:55):
demonstration that day. I mean, a lot of people were at
that. But I just want to, you know,
recognize Libna and others who work on this motion.
I mean, I didn't work on this motion.
Obviously I support the motion and I just kind of want to.
I mean, one of the ways that they were able to undermine the
motion is because the politics of that is there.
It's a generalized politics. They can't undermine it

(10:15):
politically. The anti-Semitism smears do not
work. It categorically doesn't work.
The empirical evidence is overwhelming that they don't
work. Actually, it makes people who
might even be sympathetic somehow to their arguments be
like allergic to it. So they can't use that.
So they use bureaucratic maneuvers to try and undermine
it. But that's not sustainable.
You know, it's the actions in the reaction.
As Solinsky and famous organizerfrom my city of Chicago said,

(10:38):
it's like, you know, the fact that they had the entire Israeli
state effectively responding to this means that it's effective.
In 22,008. My union, UCU's union of
academics, just passed emotion. It was the first in the country
to look into PDS. Just look into it.
The Israeli Knesset had an emergency meeting about that.
They call it emergency because the actions and the reaction.
I don't want to over inflate ourrole.

(11:00):
Of course, the real role role isthe struggle is in Palestine is
in in across West Asia. But we have obviously a plain
can play a very supplemental role.
And I think this plays into that.
But I, I guess I wanted to talk a little bit more about the
arguments they're using against it.
And I was quite surprised. I was in Herring Gay, which is
obviously in North London that'strying to contest, you know,

(11:21):
canvassing for the Greens. And a very close comrade of mine
who supports Palestine and and has been an activist for years
was like, this was a bad idea. So why, what do you say?
I was shocked. I was like, why do you say it's
a bad idea? I said, oh, you know, it's going
to alienate people. This isn't what we should do
now. And I was like, look, first of
all, principles are matter more than anything, right?
So just on principles, let that we should be doing this, but

(11:44):
even in the question of principles versus real politics,
right, let's say electoral politics, it's simply not not
true. It's misunderstanding the the
issue. It is true in the 90s that they
wanted slick back hair and like kind of kind of used car
salesman as politicians. That's over.
You know, Rosa Luxembourg via I mean, Rosa Luxembourg famously

(12:06):
said we reach a fork in the roadinside the socialism or
barbarism. What she means by that is people
aren't going to fall for middling politics anymore.
They want the real, they want real politics, right?
They want real politicians, realprinciples.
Even if they disagree with you, they want to know that you stand
up for them. And this one of the problems
with Corbin, like, you know, I supported Corbin obviously a

(12:26):
lot. He was under like, you know,
relentless attacks. And it was a different time back
then, right? And the politics of this somehow
stuck more and he had bad advisors.
But it's the fact that if he hadstuck to his guns, I then people
would have respected him even ifthey disagreed with him.
The fact is that, you know, and I disagree with some people who
say it was the anti-Semitism smears that led to his demise.

(12:48):
I don't think that's true. I think they they didn't stick,
you know, that's inflating our opponent more than they are.
And that's what I have some of the problems that they say, Oh,
it was this reason. It may have been Zionists who
drove a lot of this kind of politics precisely because he
talked about Palestinians as humans.
But it's that it was ultimately Brexit.
And we know this because 52 of the 54 seats that we lost were

(13:09):
Brexit voting seats where they don't care about the question of
anti-Semitism. So it really was in sort of
urban intelligence. Yeah.
Liberals who would have probablyvoted for the Tories anyways.
So that brings us to the currentmotion.
So it's it's it's like, oh, thiswill be bad for us.
It won't be bad for us because atotal of 0 number of people who
would have voted for the Greens will not vote for the Greens,

(13:30):
will end up not voting for the Greens because of this motion.
If they already opposed the Greens, they would have opposed
the Greens. Nobody is now being like, okay,
the Green Party right now standsfor full BDS, recognize it as
apartheid, recognizes it as a genocide.
What happened Gaza, Gaza and is happening in Gaza, wants a full
cultural and economic boycott against Israel, wants to tie cut
all diplomatic relations and expects all local councils to

(13:54):
pass motions to end pensions, pensions divest and pensions
against Israel. So they already have.
If you already agree with all that it's all Zionism is racism
all of a sudden isn't going to make you oppose it.
So then they say, oh, it's because the media or the media
is going to attack us. Good.
Why do you think we've moved from 60,000 to 230,000?
You think it's because all of the other politics?
No, it's because of Palestine. Why do you think Kamala Harris

(14:16):
lost? There was a You Gov poll in
January that came out. That was a study by You Gov that
showed Palestine was a single reason 30% of people didn't vote
for her because of Palestine. That's not even accounting for
the people who stayed at home. Look at the the same reason why
Starmer did such a poor showing actually in 2024.
And there was all these independence who lost, why he's
the most unpopular even though he passed stuff around renters

(14:37):
and this and that. It's because of the genocide.
So if the if, if, if the Green Party and the people within it
don't understand that actually this is both principled and look
at Gordon and Denton. The strategy was OK.
They rolled out a Urdu language commercial or advertisement just
online. Everyone attacked them instead
of going Oh no, no, I'm so sorry.
They then next week did an Arabic one, then did a Bengali

(15:00):
one. That meant that the total
percentage of people that would have voted against them because
of this language stuff is 0. The total number of people who
weren't going to vote, who are now going to vote, 50% of the
electorate wasn't voting, voted for them.
They won on the back of Palestine in Gordon Denton.
And now if we see, and I'm not attacking the the Green Party
necessarily, but if they allow for the politics of Palestine,

(15:21):
the politics of principles, the politics that actually get
people out and care about the Green Party, if they abandoned
that, it will be the end of the Green Party, unfortunately, I
would say not only because they abandoned their principles, not
only because it's bad for the Palestinians, but it's bad for
any kind of alternative in this country.
Yeah, yeah, I I totally agree. And I think the the leaders of
taking party need to understand and be reminded always that it

(15:42):
is Palestine is what give them this a huge popularity in the
UK. But I'm I'm really interested,
is that why you look now joined the King party?
Is it because of its position inPalestine?
Yeah, I think what? What does the King party also
mean to you? Well like many of us, I mean we
were left politically homeless after the the Labour witch hunt
and the smears and what had happened in the Corbyn era.

(16:05):
So since then, there was not really many viable alternatives.
And then you had the your party is an option.
But like I said, until they get off the ground, I mean, like,
what other options do we have? And we don't want to wait and
then potentially nothing happensand we're left with nothing.
So the Greens was, I joined because of their position of
Palestine. And so we could take that

(16:26):
further. You know, at least they had a
foundation on which we could build.
And it made sense. Like you acknowledge his roles
in apartheid state committing genocide.
What next? Well, of course you're going to
endorse the existence of a racist state that commits
genocide or you're going to address it.
And This is why I joined. It is to do that, to mobilise
more support. Many people joined because of

(16:46):
their position on Palestine, andnow we need them to uphold that
and stick it. That's going to come from us,
the people. Beautiful.
So you talked about the the motion that passed last October
with recognising Israeli or calling for prescribing the
Israeli army. So what do you think about that
and what happened after the passof the motion?

(17:08):
Well, I mean, yeah, it's great. I mean, generally as on a whole,
I'm against the the problem is the Terrorism Act 2000 itself
and the abuse of it. So for me, I would rather that
we campaign to repeal, to removethat they should apply.
I mean, what exists as law already, You know, they're
breaching every law known to to under the sun really.
You know, it's no anyway, so there's human rights violation,

(17:30):
the Geneva Convention, international law, like they
should be held to account under those already existing.
But the principle, if anyone is,if there's ever a need to say,
designate anything or anything, should fit an example of
terrorism. It is them.
Exactly. Yeah.
I support that as a statement. But in practice, I think I'm
still standing for the abolishment of this Terrorism

(17:51):
Act anyway. So, yeah, I mean moving forward
from that, this is this is the next stage of the work that
we're doing is to acknowledge its ideology and offer with it a
solution. Actually tell me more about what
you think of the ideology of Zionism and why?
I believe ever since I joined Palestine I have always called

(18:13):
for all political parties, especially progressive political
parties to be anti Zionists. Why do you think that is very,
very important? And that will not even alienate
people who joined the Green Party or other progressive
movements in the UK? Well, yeah.
And that was in general. Yeah, I think it's that it moves
it from the question of human rights to a question of

(18:36):
imperialism and ideology. And I think that's really
important because it says actually this isn't just
something that, you know, you can.
There was this movement that people talked about, you know,
back in, during Black Lives Matter, this abolish the police.
And you think, OK, what does that mean?
You know, what does that actually mean?
And I didn't, I felt quite, I mean, I'm not, I'm not an

(18:57):
anarchist. I was like, well, we take over
the state and then we take over the police.
And then we, we don't abolish the police.
We use the police to, you know, arrest all the landlords and
Zionists. I don't know, but I'm like, but
for me, I'm like, but I'm like, for me, I'm like, well, look why
they said that the abolished police is because they were set.
They said they drew a line and they said there's no mealy

(19:19):
mouth. Oh, I'm this and I'm that.
We can have our cake and we can eat it.
It's you're with us or you're against us.
Just like Bush said, you're withus or you're with the
terrorists. So what's saying anti Zionism
does is you're either with us, there's no middle ground,
there's no liberal Zionism, noneof that nonsense.
You're either with the struggle or you're against the struggle,

(19:41):
and especially it's intensified during a genocide.
What do you mean that it could be slightly better?
They're murdering, mass murdering people every day, have
children every day. So if you're willing to be, you
say, wow, there's a form in which this ideology could you're
either with the Nazis or you're against the Nazis.
You're either with the Zionists or you're against the Zionists.
That's it. You know, and so it forces

(20:02):
people to take the line and not be like, well, I want a little
bit of this and that's more electorally acceptable.
And no, that's it. So that's why I appreciate it
because it actually makes it a structural question.
It doesn't make it like some kind of reformable.
You can't be pragmatic with this.
We pragmatism flush that down the toilet.
It's it's you're with us or you're against it.
And every time I hear the word liberal Zionist, I think of the

(20:24):
word liberal thief or liberal murderer.
Liberal Zionist, Yeah, I go on right wing TV.
We were talking about this earlier.
I go on right wing television shows sometimes.
I enjoy it. And how do you do it?
You know, it's very obviously we're in a different position.
They're attacking you. It's much more personal.
But for me, I'm like, I'd much rather go on those, whether

(20:44):
they're art scientists than go on some show, whether I've been
on shows where they're like liberal Zionists because they,
it's, they are, that's the dominant ideology.
It's the lubricant of capitalistimperial ideology.
So I'm like, for me, I'm like, please, I want that polarization
because it becomes very cool, very clear that they're the,
they're the, they're, it's kind of demonic.
And I'm like, obviously making the human rights argument

(21:08):
against their ideology, you know?
And they're part of the propaganda for the.
It reveals their propaganda, yeah.
Yeah, Zionism is in many ways worse.
Oh yeah. Because it tends to whitewash
and under play exactly what Zionism is.
It's like there is no middle ground here, you know, There's
the oppressor and the oppressor.There's no suicidism, no middle
ground. And that's what this makes
clear. Yeah.

(21:29):
Yeah, yeah, that's totally true.So being able to see them from
Gazan, thinking of my experienceof, you know, the Zionist and
and our life, our experience, our daily life.
It's been 5 generations of my family that have been attacked
by the Zionist, if I wanted to count them.
And I remember when the Israelissaid have started over Gaza and

(21:52):
all of you for sure remember thethe famous attack on the Ali
Baptist Hospital. And at that time I called my
parents because I tried to call them for hours because I didn't
know where exactly they were at that time because of the Israeli
forced displacement and cut of communication.
And my father answered me after a while and he was like, hello,
we need to do something. We need to do something about

(22:14):
the Dayan Esmond. We need to be vocal about it
because it's not just us who aresuffering, like 5 generations of
us are are suffering already. But also things would get worse
and worse for the world if they stood silent for it.
And as we understand now, it's alitmus test.
So Zionism is not just about Palestine.

(22:34):
It's expansive ideology. It's an elating and expansive
ideology that kills not just Palestinians but displaced them
and it's dead land, but also tries to get to other places and
kill people as happening in Lebanon, Iran and so many other
areas. So talking about that, what does
Zionism mean for like for for you?

(22:55):
What do you understand about it?Is the embodiment of every every
form of oppression, yeah. Of racism, of fascism, of
imperialism, of colonialism. It's, it's Ellen, it's genocide,
it's apartheid, it's the demolishing of our homes, our
land, the slaughter of our people, the erasure of our

(23:17):
identity, our culture. This is, we are confronting, you
know, not just an ideology, but a practice that, as you said,
extends far beyond Palestine, beyond the litmus test.
It's also a test of compliancy. How compliant will the people be
in the face of this, this level of injustice?
Because if everybody doesn't rise against it, you know, it's
a greater world threat. I mean, you've seen the

(23:39):
expansionist projects, Lebanon, Syria, now Iran.
It doesn't stop. Exactly.
And they will not. Yeah.
They will not until we stop it and cut those ties.
And this is, this is a fight that should concern everybody
because if this is going to happen to us as Palestinians
today, who will it be tomorrow? It's already occupied.
Even our system here you've got Palente, the occupation in their
chairs, the investments made their way.

(24:00):
Instead, they could invest locally.
But no, we're funding them. The Zionist lobby has captured
even our own political arenas. The prime example of this
motion. I'm being hit by every aspect of
the Zionist lobby and this is British politics and every
person wherever they're politics, whether you're right
or left wing, is in everybody's interest to oppose and reject
Zionism and the way it has also occupied our system, state

(24:22):
repression, our basic civil liberties are now on the line.
Our right of freedom of speech and protest or also at risk.
This should be a concern for everybody.
If anyone wants to truly oppose oppression, state oppression in
all its forms, they they should be opposing Israel and Zionism
and hitting back with us for allour sakes.
And we're moving ahead to the local elections.

(24:43):
Ashok Next. Week.
What's happening? What's happening with the I'm.
I'm the elections guy. This is good.
OK, Yeah, it's a new hat I'm wearing.
Well, the local elections, well,I mean, just to give a
breakdown, I mean, the Greens obviously I think reform are
going to win big time. And the Greens are winning.
I didn't, you know, and they're winning in maybe 4, potentially

(25:05):
four or five councils here. They're winning big in other
councils. What's really good is that, you
know, even at the local level, there's, you know, Palestine
Youth Movement alongside, you know, Palestine Solidarity
Campaign is doing this Palestinepledge.
They've gotten over 1600 candidates signing on.
Most, I think most are, are Greens, but also others to sign

(25:28):
on. I, I don't know what the number
is. It might be much more higher
than that. That's the last time I checked.
And so that's, it's good becauseit's saying, you know, there are
things you can do locally. There's been a number of motions
that have been passed even in London from Walton Forest to to
Tower Hamlets to Wandsworth, where different parties have led
to trying to divestment of pension funds, which of course

(25:49):
the Green Party supports nationally and locally.
But also that's been a successful way to crank up the
pressure. But also it's a way for people
to mobilize. Politics has to be something
that's tangible. Global solidarity doesn't have
to be intangible. People feel a sense of
solidarity with the people that are being oppressed or who are
fighting back innately. That's in all of us.
That's part of what it means to be human.

(26:09):
You know, the the capitalists will say, oh, what means to be
human is to eat or be eaten. Whereas what we know is what it
means to be human is solidarity,right?
And that's what brings us, makesus human.
And so, but what is a tangible thing?
Is it going on the March? Yeah, of course marches matter.
Is it doing, is it doing very risky actions?

(26:30):
Well, of course, those risky actions are also very so
important, but not everyone can do them.
It's also to mobilize locally sopeople can feel like what
they're doing is tangible. And it's tangible.
So I think that local elections,although councils here are
basically glorified bureaucracies, they don't have
that much regulatory power, not like America.
But I think it is a step in the right direction, especially in

(26:52):
cities. Whereas obviously reform is
creeping up, which is obviously scary.
You mentioned now that some people say that when the Green
Party is so focused on Palestine, that makes the Green
Party unelectable in in the elections.
How do you respond to that? Well, I mean, like I was saying
a little bit earlier, I think it's it's that there are low

(27:15):
intensity moderate voters and there's high intensity voters,
right? This is the kind of breakdown in
a kind of political economy of elections and low intensity
voters care about the bread and butter issues.
They're like, hey, who's who, Who's going to increase the
minimum wage and who's, you know, the kind of things that
matter to the vast majority of people.
Then you have high intensity voters who vote on a specific

(27:36):
issue. When it comes to Palestine,
people really do see that as a test of your principles.
Are you captured by a narrow interest that's hell bent on
mass violence and death or are you able to break from that?
So it becomes an indicator, evenif people don't necessarily care
about Palestinians as much, it becomes an indicator of someones
principles. And that's where that's the

(27:56):
place we've reached right now. You know, you know, Trump won
because he was against war. I mean, we know that that's what
the evidence supports. That's what he said.
That's what he said, right? Of course, of course.
I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying he is against war, but that was
the basis. That's why his coalition is
collapsing. So.
Muslims in the US voted for him and.
Goes to the problems that peace.In the Middle East.
Yeah, but. I mean, he's in lots of ways

(28:17):
sharpening those contradictions,but I think it's it's that if
you it's that, that the election, if you look, look,
let's look at the National RifleAssociation in America, right?
This is gun laws. Majority of Americans want gun
laws, but there is a section of people that don't want it and
they carry carry outsized power because they're voting on that
single issue. I'm not saying Palestine is a
single issue. It's a fundamentally different

(28:38):
question. The the point is that it's not a
liability precisely because Zionism is completely marginal
in this country. It's minuscule.
It's and it's if they're all voting to the right.
So there's no reason. This is why during the Corbin
years, I was just trying to insist this and during the
Corbin years being like, look, they're not voting for you.

(29:01):
There are huge numbers of left wing progressive Muslim voters.
South Asian Muslims represent 6%of this population.
It's it's a huge number of voters.
Just by your own logistical calculation, you should be, you
should be supporting them, but then like, Oh no, be attacked by
the press. Good.
That's Free Press. There is when look at reform,

(29:23):
they're getting mildly attacked by the press.
Look at Trump, you as attacked by the press.
People look at that. People are allergic to these
institutions. So they say, OK, you're if
you're attacking, if you're being attacked so much by the
press, you must be doing something right.
But they don't understand this. They're going on this very clear
idea of a, oh, if we have this principal line that'll hurt us
electorally. It's like, that's not how

(29:43):
elections work. That's not how they work.
It's how many people you can getout to vote. 50% people don't
vote. There's a huge proportion of
people that wouldn't vote that will vote if you stand with
Palestine. But if you abandon that, they'll
abandon you and you'll lose. Do you think the Green Party can
beat the reform? Do I think the Green Party can
beat reform? Well, look, the trajectory
doesn't show that. But I don't think that's an

(30:05):
impossibility because look, I think this is how I think the
ideology of elections work, right?
Imagine you're a white working class man and you're waiting in
an unemployment queue. And then like some sort of
demonic fascist shows up and he's like in reform or
something. And he goes, he just appears and
he goes, I'll get rid of half the people in front of you and
you could be in the front of theline.

(30:26):
Yeah, that person will vote for.That's real.
That's a real political decisionthey're making.
They're saying, oh, half the people won't be I'll be closer.
The only way I can make a livingunder capitalism is by selling
my labor, taking that money and feeding my family through that
labor, right? This is the only way I can feed
my family. This will make me go in front.
That person doesn't have to be aracist to do that.
The liberal shows up. The liberal, like Starmer says

(30:48):
you're a racist for doing this. We won't change anything.
We'll make the rich richer. We'll keep funding wars that and
there's pauper izing you and and, and and then they say, OK,
that's ideology. This is an idea.
That's the the pure ideology. We say the point of the left is
to say stop the wars, that moneyshould be in your pocket, you
know, distribute, tax the rich. That's real.

(31:08):
People understand at both ends. When the economic system gets
they don't. They're abandoning the center
precisely for that reason. So we can actually potentially
win. But ideology is deep, especially
in a country like this. So if we can potentially win
those people, but it will take us to not moderate our politics,
it'll take us to be like this isthe situation on the economic

(31:30):
question, on the international relations question, on the
Palestinian question, because reform is terrible on the
Palestine question. And it's not like the American
right, which there are sections of the American right for all
kinds of reactionary and chauvinistic reasons are
actually quite that have become very good on Palestine.
You know, people like Candace Owens and others, of course,
their motivation might be whatever.
I don't care. They're they've become good on

(31:51):
this question. And what that does is put
pressure on the power structure to be like, OK, we're losing.
And it's precisely that reason why Israel is is is accelerating
their mania because they know the evidence is overwhelming
that a generation of people, anyone under 60, opposes Israel.
It's only those old people that are dying every day that still

(32:12):
support that settler state. Thank you very much.
We want to go to Gaza now, but Ireally want to ask you this
question. Lubna.
Recently declassified revealed that over 2000 British nationals
fought in the Israeli army. The genocide.
As a Palestinian, as a British, as a member of the Green Party

(32:33):
who thinks Israel committed a genocide and Israel is an
practicing apartheid in Palestine, What do you think
should happen to these 2000 nationals in the UK who fought
and killed our people? They should be in prison and
held to account, and that shouldset a precedent for anyone else
who enlists. It should be a case that you
even enlist in the iOF. You obviously have intent and

(32:54):
you are participating in the erasure of our people, so they
should absolutely be held to account.
It shouldn't be accepted and we will continue to push and fight
for that until that is the case.It's not a matter of if, it's
when. And I believe that time is
coming and I do believe Greens can win, but we need to mobilize
enough people to get in here to join us and to fight this fight

(33:14):
because no liberation came without struggle.
And we're prepared there will besacrifice.
There was going to be attacks from the the media and all sorts
of spurious allegations made. We've seen it historically and
we've seen what happens if we don't fight.
We have nothing left but to do that for all of us.
And so, yeah, I look forward to that day of accountability.
And we all need to hold them to that account.

(33:35):
I mean, it's when I think about it, it's so scary.
I mean, my family were killed atthis genocide and now I live in
a country where possibly, maybe the one who killed my family is
a British national who lives here.
He might be my neighbor. Yeah.
It's, it's it's mental, it's crazy.
It's. Crazy.
Standing in the parties as as candidates.

(33:56):
Yeah, they belong. They belong to.
Yeah, they absolutely belong. On illegally occupied lands up
to the UK, yeah. But I mean, they're British
nationals. Why do they go fight us in
Palestine, I mean. It's the double standards, the
hypocrisy. It's sickening and it has to be
for it has to be battled and that's one of the facets of the

(34:17):
motion, accountability and they need to be held to account, all
of them. A lot will happen, we will go to
Gaza section now. But my message to our audience,
if you are enjoying this show again, please don't forget to
hit the like button and subscribe to our YouTube.
And if you want to support our work, we warmly welcome you to

(34:37):
become a paid subscriber from aslittle as £1.00 a month.
Your support helps us build independent, Palestinian LED
media in a world which never needed it more.
Find the link in the descriptionbelow.
Yeah, Thank you so much, Ahmed. So now we'll be watching a video
together from our brilliant correspondent Hudan Ali.

(34:58):
And after that, we'll have more of a discussion about it.
It's about their experience withwhat Israel calls their line.
Yeah, let's watch together. Hello everyone, I am Alice Keck.
And I am Hudders Keck and we areboth traitors from Gaza.
Today we are going to highlight a critical issue.
Well, Gaza is often called the world largest urban area

(35:21):
present, but a present implies walls that is still in a place.
Here in Gaza, the walls are always moving.
Every day they are being pushed and where our city narrowing our
streets and making the K is moresmaller than it was just
yesterday. According to the Guardian, there

(35:43):
has been a quiet but calculated expansion on the ground.
What is called the yellow line has been pushed further, growing
from covering 53% into about 58%of the Gaza Strip.
Without warnings, without agreements, just 5% of our land

(36:07):
swallowed overnight. And this forces over 2 million
people to be crushed into the remaining 42%.
And our life is being squeezing,is being squeezed.
And I really see this here in the West of the city, where I
see a crowded of displaced people who are deprived to go

(36:29):
back out of the lands in the east and the north of the city.
Behind these percentages are so many people, thousands of
people. Ali interviewed the Aman whose
home is in in the Yellow Line area and he spent years building

(36:49):
his home in brick by brick only to see it damaged and vanished
in an instant because one line on the map decided his life no
longer fed. Behind this line, everyday homes
are being erased. The explosions are being heard
daily, day and night. Levelling the the blocks there

(37:17):
isn't there is eventually blocksthere making sure that people
will no longer return to them. The world speaks of a ceasefire,
but the reality here on the ground tells another story.
There is no ceasefire. Just today a strike hit a
vehicle here in the West of the city and another strike hit Khan

(37:40):
Yunus. 5 people were killed. We lost today 5 souls, 2 of them
were little children and also other six people were wanted.
When the killing is constant, violation is no longer the word.
It is a systematic policy. The Yellow line is not a border,

(38:01):
it is a hunting ground that turns our daily survival into a
target. The Israeli occupation wants to
shrink Gaza until we disappear. But they cannot shrink the
truth. We will keep speaking and tell
us that and all of Palestine is free.

(38:22):
Thank you so much for amplifyingour voice.
Our voices, guys. Bye, bye, bye.
Bye. So this is a very painful video
to watch, and I believe people should know right now that it's
not actually a ceasefire. People are still being killed by

(38:44):
Israel. The genocide is ongoing.
And the annexation of the land, which is the master project of
Israel to take the Palestinian land and also other lands,
apparently is ongoing. So how do you respond to this
video? Do you think about it?
There's. No words left.
There's no words and the let youtake this one from.

(39:08):
Me, yeah. Yeah.
I mean, it's just, it feels obviously, you know, it's just
an unending horror of what Israel not only is doing, but
also somehow is able to just, it's become acceptable in, you

(39:29):
know, we talk about, you know, the press is obsessed with some
discursive things someone said or someone did.
But then you have the complete abject brutality of a racist
settler state murdering people at will every day for 2 1/2
years. And it's, and it's just

(39:52):
acceptable. It's just like that's what, what
that's what they've told us in the press is acceptable that
mass murder. But what's not acceptable is
someone might have said something, some point, which
they'll get on all the shows andgrill them about, you know, but
then you I don't want to just Palestine is its own.
Struggle, but also if you look at the long history of settler

(40:13):
colonies, this is how they operate.
The 100 million Native Americansthat were murdered by Europeans
when they came systematically murdered, every treaty broken.
So they signed a treaty with thewith the Israelis.
It's not worth the paper it's written on.
Like, oh, why is Iran keep attacking?
Because Iran's like it's not worth the paper you write it on.
The Americans bomb them when they're no negotiations.

(40:34):
The Israelis murder them when they're in negotiations.
They murder them after the ceasefire.
There's no respect. I mean, the entire idea of
international law, which was always a joke, obviously in
written for the benefit of the West, is completely obliterated
in the last 2 1/2 years. It's revealed to the world the
actual machinations of the international order and so the

(40:55):
liberal order. So I just think the fact that
they can get away with this and do this just speaks to how
revolting, you know, the Israelioccupation is, but also how
it's, it's become part of the discourse, you know, it's just
been allowed to happen. You know, what would the noise
be the most is not only Israel'saction, of course Israel action

(41:15):
are the most brutal, but how themedia and the West talks about
it, they still talk about the ceasefire.
I mean, I read a few days ago the BBC, their headline Israel
kills Palestinians in during ceasefire.
Why do people still talk about the ceasefire?
There is no ceasefire. We know it's not a ceasefire.

(41:35):
So this is Al Jazeera says Israel kills at least 12
Palestinians in Gaza amid ceasefire but under inverted
comas ceasefire, Yes, it's not aceasefire.
The BBC Israel strikes killed 14in Lebanon amid ongoing
ceasefire. Ongoing, and they keep on going.
But why do we still talk about aceasefire when it's clearly not

(41:56):
a ceasefire? And I think my, my, my
understanding is this. When the Israelis are killed,
it's not a ceasefire. Yes, when Palestinians and
Lebanese and Arabs and Muslims and Christians, even if they're
not Jewish Israelis, then this is a ceasefire.
That is so problematic. And that's why I have always
said that the media, the press and the UK are complicit in our

(42:19):
genocide. They're complicit in, in, in,
in, in the barbarian Israeli actions in in Gaza and Lebanon.
But can we go again, my, my friends to the tweet by Muhammad
had our colleague in which he talks about the the Israeli
destruction of the So this is how much had our colleague and

(42:39):
he this is this is a tweet. Remember when Israel said its
soldiers destroying solar panelsin Lebanon don't align with its
values? The next day, Israel bombed the
solar powered phone charging station and murdered its owner,
Ahmed Makhdad, in a targeted strike in Gaza.
Israel has systematically bombedGaza solar panels over three

(43:00):
years of genocide, and Israel's Security Minister Bengvir openly
advocated for this policy. I know, I know, I understand.
Both of you are members of the Green Party.
The environment is very important to you.
But look, when Palestinians and Lebanese start their own
projects building these solar panels, Israel goes and destroy

(43:21):
them. What?
What, how? How can anyone justify
destroying the solar panels and killing the owner of the solar
panels in Gaza? And that actually takes us to
another discussion, which is thePalestinians in Gaza.
For the past three years, they were deprived of having
electricity because Israel bombed its electricity plants.

(43:44):
How do you respond to that action by Israel as Green Party
members who care deeply about the environment?
And people. And people, definitely.
I mean, I think it's, you know, Israel constantly.
We know about this, the green washing thing.
They're like, we care so much about environment.

(44:04):
We put eucalyptus who's like came there to to cover your
crimes. They're like, oh, well, how can
queers for Palestine? They throw them off bridges or
throw them off roofs. I mean, there's no evidence of
that at all. But The thing is this is
constantly mobilized as a way todehumanize Palestinians and
humanize Israelis. We care about the environment,
we care about this and we care about that.

(44:25):
But the reality is it's like, OK, well, we care what the
environment will destroy all the, the renewable energy that
you can generate because we wantto make you desperate.
We want to make you forcibly leave.
You know, all of the reasons whythey want to make, they want to,
they want to have full control. They want, they don't want any
autonomy. But it's also like, oh, we care
about queers, but we'll just kill anybody who might be queer
or gay or whatever. And so it's like it's, it's a

(44:47):
constant bait and switch. But I think again, I think
people are, I think to to say ina hopeful note, I think people,
it's so obvious that none of these tactics are working.
They would have historically. Worked.
Yeah, they would have historically worked, but nobody
believes a single thing that comes out of an Israeli
official's mouth because it's always been lies.
It's and now it's and I just think the that's to the Israeli

(45:11):
state is terrifying. I.
Still, I know I still see many influential people who say that
the Palestinians are homophobic,They throw gays out of the whole
buildings and still people believe this shit and.
That's why I tell them bomb themwith their families, with their
communities, with the whole GazaStrip.
And that's fine because because they kill everyone.

(45:33):
So we. Lived in Gaza.
We've never had such things at all have.
You ever heard of a person? But it's never.
Been there's never been a recording case.
I mean this is how the British occupied India.
They say the 1988 there's a famous of the practice of such
where it was like on a very rareoccasion, I mean occasions,
upper cast women would kill themselves when their husbands.
It was it was a I mean it's not a a good practice, but it was

(45:58):
like very few cases of this was actually happening.
It's a very small section of people, but that was the basis
upon which the British occupied India and then and killed and
killed millions of people and starved them into that and.
Multiple them do it for same. Same with Afghanistan.
They're like, oh. Look at the women.
Yeah, Oh my God, they're covered.
Let's just murder everybody. So it's like this is the tactic
of the imperial order. It's true.
Yeah, it's true. We're.

(46:18):
The civilizers, Yeah, let's killthem all and civilize them by
killing. So we we have we have a problem
with the hijab women in Gaza because they were hijab then.
Yeah, let's yeah. We'll liberate them by killing
them. Yeah, and they've done the same
for the Iranian girls, the schoolgirls.
And they said, yeah, they would have grown up to eat hijab.
And it's like, Oh my God, it's. Just like to demonize.
Yeah. And again, it's like this.

(46:40):
It's the tactic. Infrastructure to make life
inhabitable, to smear us so we are the outside, so people
cannot humanize us and relate tous as human beings.
Like the way that they call us human animals.
Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I'd rather
be an animal or a human animal than what they are.
Exactly. Most inhumane.
Everything. And on that note, it's our
responsibility if we can go backto the to the photo to talk

(47:03):
about Ahmad Mukdad because part of the of dehumanising people is
to deprive them from their identity, who they are.
So Ahmad Mukdad is a Palestinianfrom Gaza.
He's a head of Filiardo and Sneaker Federation in Gaza.
He's a father of nine children who's now an orphan because of

(47:26):
the Israeli murdering and targeting of him.
And his daughter was due to haveher within in two weeks.
So you can imagine how this newshave affected them.
Ahmed is the uncle of my friend and I know how how difficult
then he would have been on them.So with with those attacks.

(47:46):
So talking about the solar panel, again, those attacks are
not are not isolated. So Israel have been attacking
solar panels over hospitals, within the genocide over houses
and they're attacking the very infrastructure of people,
survivors to make sure that people cannot survive in any
means. They've attacked the
agricultural land, they've attacked more than 80% of all

(48:08):
the house insurance and Gaza. They've attacked most of the
health and health education and all other infrastructure that we
need for our survival. And this is, again, is not
isolated act and apparently it'sa policy because as in the tweet
of Muhammad, it's not just Gaza,it's also Lebanon, and it's
everywhere where Israel can actually put its hand over the

(48:30):
people. Imagine if the Palestinians that
there's destroy panels, solar panels of Israelis, that would
be all over the news all around the world.
The Palestinians hate nature. They would destroy nature and
all of it. And unfortunately, it works.
It works. They manufacture consent for the
genocide through these tactics. The media, their criminal.

(48:52):
The luster side, eco side is everything.
Everything. Yeah, 1.
Cares about the environment. But we have a positive story
here. Yeah, yeah.
We're trying this. Story Let's watch this video
together from. Gaza Amid ongoing displacement
and destruction in Gaza imposed by the Israeli war, artists in a
refugee camp are turning to visual expression to document

(49:12):
life under war. And open air exhibition in
central Gaza is showcasing how communities are using art to
capture loss, resilience and survival amid Israeli
atrocities. Here's more in this report.
Displaced Palestinians toured anopen air art exhibition in the
Burage camp in central Gaza, where artists are using

(49:33):
paintings to express their experiences of war, loss and
survival. Organizers say the exhibition
brings together artists seeking to transform trauma into visual
testimony. Yeah, so this is a very
interesting video because you said that how many artists they

(49:55):
were. 64. Artists, yeah, And many of them
have started drawing within the genocide to express their pain,
their experience, which is the opposite of what happened to you
within the genocides, because you're artists already and you
have so many pains like Baba andTatia.
So Theta, Theta, Yeah. Theta, Theta.

(50:19):
So. Theta is a grandmother.
Yeah, yeah. You know, just imagine.
Yeah, I usually say city. Yeah, city, usually not Theta,
but yeah, it depends on where you are around Palestine.
So yeah. Could you tell us more about how
do you feel about this video? We need to resist.

(50:40):
I mean, first of all, that is not just their way of coping,
you know, trying to also, sadly,document.
It's bittersweet because you're documenting an awful, bitter
reality of genocide, of oppression, of occupation.
And it's like those who capture,you know, it's filming their
annihilation. There's nothing more painful for
that to see. But their truth, their stories

(51:02):
live on. It's also a form of resistance,
of defiance. We are still here, and we will
paint and we will capture and we'll document.
So your lies cannot wash. So we will live to tell our
stories through our work. We live a long legacy.
It's evidencing, you know, that the pain of torture, but also
the hope and the resilience of Palestinians, the determination.

(51:22):
And this is all expressed through things like arts.
I mean, we know infamously the impact that that's had when
people like Nigel Ali were, you know, assassinated for power of.
Them. But this is a fight back.
This is a way to speak and it's a universally understood
language. That's the beauty of art.

(51:43):
There were no barriers in your language when you're looking at
an image which speaks more than 1000 words.
In this case and. You know, I'm very amazed with
them as Palestinians who still paint during the genocide.
They still do exhibitions duringthe genocide, not only because
they are amazing and they're fighting Israel with words and
art, but also because they still, they still produce art in

(52:08):
the middle of the genocide. And they did not need to hire
venues and spend money on like organizing these exhibitions.
They produce art and they showcase them in the streets, in
the open air. Because.
Because the Palestinian people are creative, the Palestinian
people are full of life. They still love life and they
still teach life to all of us. And for that I'm very amazed

(52:31):
with them. Let's watch your art together.
You have two painting. Is that Theta?
It's very beautiful. I love the embroidery.
Yeah, she made this dress by hand.
Is that your? Own tater.
Wow. Yeah.
It's your own tater. Wow, she's.
So beautiful, God bless her. Yeah.
She passed before the genocide and in some sad way.

(52:52):
Oh. My God.
It spared her the pain of havingto witness this.
After all she longed for was to go back and this was her
homeland. In the background is Betixa, the
village she was from and why there is an olive tree and the
plants on the inside of the house.
This is a shell of the house. What's remaining?
So it's no longer home like it'sbombed so.

(53:14):
You. Yeah, I can see the cracks.
Where the inside is out and so on.
So it it tells the story of the demolition of our homes, our
wish to return. And that's for sure she left the
Aqaba. Yeah, she enjoyed she was
pregnant with one of my aunts during the Oh my God, she was
forced from that from the first home and the Dirias scene

(53:36):
massacres. They it's just moved from place
to place, displaced until forcedout of her home and never got to
return, as you know. Yeah, more than six months, you
lose your right of return. So many like my grandma will
never return now. Only the foreign settlers have
the right to return to our land now with Israeli policies,

(53:57):
unfortunately. Yeah, yeah, inshallah we she
didn't need to see it in her lifetime, but inshallah we will.
Or the next generations. But we won't give up.
I've I've seen many legacy, I'veseen many of your paintings.
They're all powerful. Great.
Thank you for sharing them with us.
That's, that's your Baba. That's your dad.
Was he? Well, read a book.
Yeah, he was very much a book. Well, very, very well read.

(54:21):
I can see that now. Politics released an affairs.
Got a lot of knowledge from my dad and experience and his
stories. The.
Torture he had. Thank you, Ashoka.
I want to go back to you If, if I may, I we read this news
recently about BP, British Petroleum, after the siege on

(54:47):
Iran and the closure of the state of Hormuz.
Surprisingly, the British Petroleum and this quarter they
doubled their profits. What is happening?
Well, look, I think firstly, BP of course has deep connections
to the settler entity. They've gotten, you know,

(55:09):
massive contracts off the coast which belong to the people of
Palestine obviously more generally, but even the people
of Gaza, which obviously they can't access that.
Israel's stealing that and they're doing it through with
BP. That's the first point.
The second point is that oil companies because of the the

(55:30):
blockade at the Strait of Hormuzare able to, you know, we're
seeing oil, the price of oil go up to 100 and 10120 even dollars
a barrel. And so they're able to make
enormous profits not only because the limitations placed
on global oil, but it's based onspeculation.
So we know that for example, a VLCC which is a very large, very

(55:55):
large cruise, a very large crudecontainer ship.
VLCC is the size of these are, you know, crude carrying ships,
oil carrying ships are, is the size of four football fields.
It it weighs as much as a, a, a skyscraper.
It carries between 2 to 3,000,000 barrels of oil and it

(56:16):
travels about between 10 to 15 knots, which is the, the, the
speed of a bicycle. And So what effects, what begins
in the beginning of April will impact, you know, the end of May
potentially, because it takes that long for it to affect
global crude prices. So why would crude be so high
with speculation? So it's like they're able to

(56:38):
profit enormously off of those those forms of, of speculation.
And you know how I was saying earlier that, you know, even
when you were in Gaza, there were price controls.
You know, the Hamas administration put price
controls on fuel and other things, but that's beyond the
scale of scope for countries in the West who are completely
steeped in neoliberalism to put to place price controls on

(56:58):
rents, on oil on because it's, you know, like to quote Alex,
you talked about, he said the business of America is business
and, and Europe and Britain is, you know, junior partner in
that. So they they're about making
profits for a small group of people at the cost of many.
So that's that's the explanationI would say for the price.
That's really interesting. So at the same time, while we're

(57:20):
hearing about the, you know, thethe prices of fuel where people
are paying, you know, from theirpocket money to for those
companies to make profit from it.
While people in Gaza and other places are picking paying their
lives, which is, you know, very,very, very racist, but very,
very like epileptic for people like us.

(57:42):
But also we're hearing also likepolitical debates on the US,
Israeli war of aggression on Iran.
And some people are debating, does Trump, is he winning?
Is Israel and Netanyahu are winning, or is Iran?
So what do you think about that?I mean, look, I think that it's
US hubris and Western press. My parents live in America.

(58:03):
I was growing up in America. The kind of they were like,
wait, how? What do you mean the Iran's
winning? It's like you have to live in
complete Candyland to believe that the Americans are winning
this. It's very clear that the
Iranians to me learn from the Houthis or the Ansar Allah.
Their, their, their blockade of the Baba Mandav straight,
straight. It's the first time in history

(58:23):
in the history of the world thatyou've had a force with no Navy
enforce a blockade of naval blockades are the most expensive
blockades of any navies are the most expensive part of
militaries. And blockades can only be done
by the wealthiest, most well resourced militaries in the
world in in history. So they were done by armadas.
Usually. It's very difficult to do.
It's very difficult to maintain.They were able to do it because

(58:46):
of the I would, you know, I argue this in this paper that
was published in Antibod, which is basically that the changing
composition of capitalism, whichmakes it much more vulnerable to
disruption. But also because the access to
these forms of like ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and
drones. They looked at that and
obviously they were supporting Ansarullah and they said, oh
wow, A country 100th resourced as us in the Baba man of Strait,

(59:09):
which is, you know, nowhere nearas strategic a choke point as
the Strait of the Hormuz was able to do it.
We'll be able to do it here. You know, we're talking about
60% of the known petroleum in the world is in the Persian
Gulf. 50% of the known gas in the world is in the Persian
Gulf. The vast majorities of sulphur,
helium, the basic essentials to industrialization and capitalism
are in the Strait of Hormuz. If by shutting it down, that's

(59:32):
the ultimate trump card, that isthe ultimate deterrent.
It's more effective than a than a nuclear weapon because nuclear
weapon you can't use here. They're using it and they're
putting tolls and they're controlling it.
And so where's the evidence thatthe Americans are winning?
Because one, they can't, they didn't send in ground troops,
just threatening it three times.They've been pleading,
desperately pleading for negotiations.
The Iranians are like, no, the, the person who's stronger isn't

(59:55):
desperately pleading for negotiations.
They're running out of, of defensive munitions.
So we're talking about Arrow, David Sling, you know, various
different kinds of defensive missiles which are far more
expensive and far more intensiveto produce than the missiles
that the Iranians are using and the Iranians aren't.
They're producing it in, in homegrown factories underground with

(01:00:17):
home grown products just like the Iranian, just like the
Yemenis were. So.
They and nobody knows how much they have.
So the evidence is overwhelming that the Iranians are able to
take far greater hits. And I don't want to be talk
about it flippantly. It is the sacrifice of the
Yemeni people and the Iranian people and the and the Lebanese
people and the Palestinian people that have brought this

(01:00:37):
forward, right? But it's their ability to
withstand those attacks in a waythat the West can't withstand
economic attacks. Knowledge at the end of this, I
know I've gone for a while. It's precisely because the
Iranians were isolated economically that that insulates
them from the economic impacts of of this.
It's precisely the countries that were more and more
integrated into global systems of trade that become more and

(01:01:00):
more impacted by the shutdown ofBaba bond up St. enough time
when there were import substitution investment where
countries were much more self reliant, they could withstand
these attacks. Now they just can't because the
entire world is integrated in. Those countries that were
isolated from that system of global trade can actually
withstand the attacks because they're more self-sufficient.

(01:01:21):
Can I ask a follow up question on that many people?
When the war started in the genocide started in Gaza, many
people said that Israel will suffer a lot of economic
precautions because of the genocide, because of the war,
the lack of many Israeli companies that closed down and
all the rest of it. But then they just started and
the Israeli economies are thriving.

(01:01:43):
They did not suffer any economiclosses during the genocide.
Some other people would say thatit applies again on America.
America is the most powerful country in the world.
It's the richest country in the world.
Maybe. So.
Is is talking about the financial or economic
repercussions on America relevant in this case or not?
Well, look, I think that it's not.

(01:02:04):
I think that there is a fundamental difference between
the Americans and the Israelis. Israel is a, you know, even now
they did this poll, I think 3 weeks ago.
They're all underground. They're living in, you know, in
their terror tunnels and they'reliving in their terror tunnels.
Those are the real terror tunnels where they all be like
terror tunnel, terror tunnel. You're living in the terror

(01:02:25):
tunnels. They're all living in those
terror tunnels. And they, and they did a poll
and they suffered. 85% of them was like, continue the war.
Which countries like this. It's a, it's a, it's a it.
That's lunacy, that's bloodlust.The Americans are a different
society. It's a different country.
Of course, America is a bloodthirsty country as well.
But the fact that oil prices go up, the oil prices go up in

(01:02:48):
Israel, they're like, we don't care because they there's the
bloodlust. It's a country built.
And if you've chosen to move as a settler and live on the blood
drenched country that you have no right to be in, then you
that's a, you are already a someone who is OK with mass
death. And so I think that the
Americans are like, why who signed up to this?

(01:03:10):
So I think that there is, I mean, it's deeply, deeply
unpopular in America, even a minor economic cost.
And, and also, you know, the Israeli economy and Israeli
state is propped up by the West.It's propped up by the West.
And so I think, yes, I think people did expect a far greater
economic impact. I think that those these things

(01:03:31):
are in the short and medium term, you're right, it hasn't
had a massive economic impact. But in the future, and this is
not just me being opium or copium or whatever, it is
actually the fact that there is more and more people don't want
to have anything to do with Israel, not because of what
they've done, but because there's massive liabilities
that's associated with that. And that's being baked into risk
assessments and investment decisions.

(01:03:51):
Not now, but in four, 5-10 yearsthat'll still remain.
And so the long term impact is hard to determine.
It's been relatively new. This is this entire, like I say,
paradigmic shift. OK.
OK, interesting. Do you think like now we see
that the US is having problems and maybe Israel and all of

(01:04:12):
that. But do you think at the same
time this whole world, this the closure of Hormuz and all those
things are ways to go around thesystem and create a parallel
system, part of the Israeli Bengorian Canal that they were
like advocating for that goes from there, India to the to to
those. So part of the profit, part of
the control of the economy will be through them, although they

(01:04:34):
might be or seem a little bit now in a in a trouble.
Well, look, I think that if you look at the geography of the
region right there is the fact that you have these firstly,
pipelines can carry gas or they can carry they have to, you have
to have different pipelines for different things that you're
carrying. So for example, in Saudi Arabia,
you have the East West pipeline that carries crude oil.

(01:04:56):
It doesn't carry gas, it doesn'tcarry sulfur and fertilizer and
all the things that make up the nuts and bolts of capitalism and
like allow these countries to function.
And and that was blown up. The Iranians blew it up.
It's very easy to blow those up.You just do a target and it
takes 10 days to reproduce it. Then it only only has 10% of the
capacity that you have in maritime shipping during by sea.
So they're only moving 10% and it moves from the from the

(01:05:19):
Strait of Hormuz to the Baba Mandev Strait and through the
Gulf Aiden. So it's like, well, now that's
been potentially shut down South, the liabilities that they
have to come through the Suez and then move out to the Suez.
So there's loads of liabilities attached to even these
pipelines. So yes, it's conceivable.
And so like, you know, you UAE has just left OPEC.
Obviously the Americans love that.
They've hated OPEC from the verybeginning.

(01:05:40):
They're saying, oh, we'll move it through our pipeline that's
going through. But that pipeline has had
overcapacity. They can produce 3.5 million
barrels a day. They can produce 5, but they're
capped at 3.5. They're not even able to move
10% of that because again, pipelines can't move what ships
can move. And the ships are shut down.
The ships are shut down because the conventional army can't
attack them just like they couldn't two against the Yemeni.

(01:06:03):
2 wars won by Biden with 20 countries and one by Trump with
one country, Britain, which theydidn't even ask them to join.
And they joined because Starmer is such a a loser and they lost
both of them. They lost both of them against
the Yemeni. Why?
Because conventional militaries can't fight against the
liabilities attached to these kinds of missiles.

(01:06:24):
Because again, these these shipsare so huge, so expensive that
the liabilities are to the roof.They won't even get insured.
Most of the reason why ships can't cross the state of removes
is because there's ten insurancecompanies that won't sign off of
it off of it. They're based in London because
the liabilities are massive. So I think it's it's it's it's
no question that you have UAE and the Saudis really freaking

(01:06:44):
out right now because they're what butters.
Their bread is the ability to move goods out of there.
If the Iranians are controlling it again, they they're they'll
there's a real existential crisis for them.
What began as an existential crisis for Iran is now an
existential crisis for the GCC and for the US empire.
I would say, and that's not me just being hyped up.
I'm saying I I genuinely believethis.
Thank you very much. I, I think we are running out of

(01:07:06):
time, but I really want to ask us a question for both of you
actually. And it's actually a follow up of
the answer you gave previously that the, the Israelis, they
have this bloodlust and they want this war to continue.
The Americans, they have no, no,no Britain that came, they, they
did not need to get into this war.
And that's access to the other question.

(01:07:29):
Who is controlling who? Why did America need to get
involved in this war at first place?
Is it because Israel is a dragging American to this war or
because America actually want tohave this war?
What is the connection? Who is controlled by whom?
Let's just start with Loebner. It's like a symbiotic, very

(01:07:53):
unhealthy relationship that theyhave, right?
It's. Toxic relationship.
Toxic, absolutely. And this is the one that
everyone else pays the cost for.I mean, it is an imperialist
project, so it's propped up. It's like they're imperialist
watchdog of the Middle East. So they both ultimately benefit
from that, but it's ultimately the people that pay the price.
And this is the biggest problem.I mean, even the devastating

(01:08:15):
faces us that end up paying for it financially as well, to the
detriment of us and our lives wherever else we are.
Of course, the worst ones that take the hit are the
Palestinians. And then you've got like we were
saying about the now the inflation is soaring, oil
prices, depression is going to hit.
Everyone else will pay that price.
And unfortunately, you know, if they don't care about the lives

(01:08:36):
of the Palestinians, we'll OK, we'll hit your pockets.
The blood is on our hands here and where we are, all of us that
don't stop it. So it is a a fundamental problem
and it is, it's like the chickenand rugs situation where they
but both as right and both it all needs to be challenged.
This is imperialism, colonialism, capitalism, all of
it on the whole. And we have to detach from it

(01:08:59):
and people have to understand why it's so vital that we do.
In the past, they they used to shy off from this reality, but I
remember like Biden, when he wasat the at the seat, he was
saying that if Israel did not exist, would have had to create
it. And that the European leaders
with the war in Lebanon and Iran, they're talking about the

(01:09:20):
importance of Israel to keep thepeace in the Middle East it.
Has nothing to peace. Yeah, it's the peace that they
would like, which is the controlling of others, the
killing of them, the genocide continuing and taking of land,
so on on that land. On that note.
What do you think about it, Ashkovia?

(01:09:41):
Well, firstly, you know, you said about, you know, there's
this bloodlust I wanted, I don'twant to exceptionalize Israel.
And in this case it's, it is thelogic of, of annihilation.
And this is logic applies to other instances of settler
colonialism. The Americans, the whole idea of
rugged individualism. You go out there, you kill
Native Americans. Same in Australia, same in

(01:10:03):
Tasmania. They killed 100% of the
indigenous population in Tasmania.
That's bloodlust because it's the ideology that is required in
order to settle another people'sland and murder every a race at
their existence, right. That's why, for example, if
someone's painting, you know, there's a lot of these artists
are like, oh, we're painting this thing and that's making us
human. No, but in Palestine where
they're trying to annihilate them, being like we're still

(01:10:26):
here and we're still human is not only good for their own
abilities and to do it because you don't exist for the, the
gays of the colonial, the, you know, people who are occupying
your land, but it's, it's a four.
It is resistance. That is that's why, you know,
for example, when they were being bombed and and you, you
see like a few rockets going over and they knew that the Iron
Dome was going to stop it, but they'd send it out because they

(01:10:47):
were screaming out, we're here, you haven't killed us.
We're still alive, We're still human.
So for me, it's not the I don't want to exceptionalize the, the
violence of the I mean, it's, itlooks very exceptional.
But this has been done in all in, in all settler colonial
instances, right? Not just colonial, but settler
colonial. But on the question of the this
question, and I wanted to echo what Libna was saying about the
relationship is much more symbiotic and dialectical like

(01:11:10):
the it's very easy for us to I think and it's simple to say
it's just the Israeli lobby. Of course the lobby is very
powerful. Why do you think they spend a
billion dollars in American? Do you think they want to spend
a billion dollars? That billion dollars is the
distance between their power andthe where it's integrated into
the imperial state, right? There is a distance and it's
growing. It's growing that distance, but

(01:11:31):
it's still there. And to make up that distance,
they have to pay off all these politicians.
Look at, for example, Ukraine in2021.
You know, one day no one knew where Ukraine was.
By the end of the week, they were like, everyone's like, rah,
rah, Ukraine, fight Israel. The Russophobia was through the
roof. Well, how was that produced?
It was produced because that wasthe logic of the imperial state,
which is integrated into the superstructure.

(01:11:53):
And that superstructure basically is like, this is in
our interest. There didn't need to be a
Ukrainian lobby for that to be case.
That's the case. There is an integration of the
imperial state and the interestsof the Zionists that's going
further and further apart, but it still exists.
And that distance again is made-up for through various
institutions that are hell bent on demonizing those who talk

(01:12:14):
about Palestinians and celebrating people, the
murderers who go and visit Palestine and commit genocide.
So I think I mean to not a circular way is to say, yes,
that we can make that distance further, further, the lobby does
have a lot of influence. Of course, you'd have to be
blind not to realize that. But it's a little bit more
deeper, deeper than that. It's not just this contingent
factor. If we just to be defeat the
lobby, we'll defeat the, the entity.

(01:12:36):
It's like, no, no, that's it's, it's, it's deeper.
Than that of sustaining. Of course.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, which is working,
unfortunately so well, the finalthing before we we finish is do
you have any call for people whoare watching us, anything to do,
anything to participate in? Absolutely not to stop speaking.
Elections and. Oh, yeah.
I mean, narrative. I mean, winning that narrative.

(01:12:56):
I mean, this goes on to what we were saying about the Zionist
lobby. And this is, you know, mass
propaganda machine. Everyone's influenced by the
mainstream media and the disinformation that they put
out. One, this is addressing the
narrative. This Is Us refusing to be
silent. This Is Us fighting back against
weaponisations of anti-Semitism with state repression and as

(01:13:17):
long as we don't stop speaking, we don't stop fighting.
We can confront this but it has to be the beginning is that we
do that we resist all forms of suppression against us in
confronting this. So that's what the motion does.
So my advice is to come in here.It's not about the party
politics of the leadership. This is about the Palestinian
voices. This is about the people and the
people leading the people. We need to raise our hands and

(01:13:38):
and use our votes here to changethe face of British politics and
that's only going to happen whenwe get involved.
As filthy and awful as politics is, the only way we change it is
going to begin with us. We have to be that change and to
this motion has been passed in other union branches, other
party branches. It's a movement and it says it
doesn't begin in the Green Party.
It's not limited to the Green Party.

(01:13:59):
So we urge everyone everywhere to pass this, to share it beyond
the UK. We have to change the face of
this and it begins here with us.But it's only one end here.
Until we are liberated, we won'tstop.
So just keep up the fight. Thank you.
Yes, I agree with all of that. And I also wanted to plug the
election of Amu Gibb, who's currently in prison for

(01:14:24):
allegedly attacking the war machine, the genocide machine.
And yeah, so they are running inFinsbury Park with the Islington
Community Independence. So if you can go out and help
them and on that campaign, that would also be excellent.
Thank you very much, Ashrik. Thank you very much, Lobna.

(01:14:46):
It was really great having you in our studio.
I really appreciate the discussion and see you soon.
And Sha Allah, thank you very much everyone who was watching
and again, watch the previous episodes and TuneIn every
Wednesday at 7:00 PM Thank you very much.
See you next. Week bye, bye.