Zionism: "A Maker Of MONSTERS" | Dr Ghada Karmi & Matt Kennard

Welcome to the world’s first Palestinian chat show! Palestinian journalists from Gaza Ahmed Alnaouq and Hala Hanina are joined by Palestinian author, academic and physician Dr Ghada Karmi and investigative journalist Matt Kennard.

They’ll be discussing the latest news from Palestine and the wider region, including the now viral of image from L’Espresso magazine showing an Israeli settler in the occupied West Bank terrorising a Palestinian woman, the ongoing genocide in Gaza despite six months of so-called “ceasefire” and the significance of Palestinian Prisoner’s Day on 17th April.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I think Zionism as an ideology is a maker of monsters because
if you just go on Twitter duringthe genocide and see the gleeful
nature with which atrocities were were were greeted by major
Zionist accounts, not fringe people, mainstream liberal
Zionists and stuff, it's shocking the.
Brutality of these these so-called settlers.

(00:24):
They are sadists and psychopaths, a lot of them.
Frankly. Their brutality is so obvious,
it's so well known. You know you can only you can
try. Imagine.
Imagine having these people living near you.

(00:44):
Hello and welcome back to Palestine Deep Dive.
We have a very special show for you today.
For our second episode, we're back with two of our favorite
regular guests, acclaimed Palestinian author, academic and
physician Dr. Rader Karami and investigative journalist Matt
Kinnert. But before we dive into our
conversation, we want to give you a quick roundup of some of
this week's key stories we'll becovering in today's show.

(01:07):
Six months into the so-called ceasefires in Gaza, we'll be
exposing how the genocide did not end at all, but actually
continues each and every day forour people back home in Gaza.
Looking at the big picture, we'll be asking what Israel's
agenda is across the wider region and examining whether
anyone is willing or able to hold it accountable for its

(01:29):
genocidal expansion. On a Friday this week, it's the
Palestinian Prisoners Day. We'll be exploring the
significance of Palestinian prisoners to the Palestinian
struggle and exposing the depth and depravity of Israeli's
Carcilla system of widespread torture, imprisonment and
detention without trial of Palestinians under occupation,
apartheid and colonialism. In some light news, we'll be

(01:52):
celebrating the launch of the latest flotilla which sets sail
from Barcelona this week to Gaza, as well as deep diving
into UK's politics with a discussion on Palantir Zionism
and whether there might be hope on the political horizon in the
UK at last long. Stay tuned for all of this and
more on today's episode. So there has been like a photo

(02:14):
circulating that was published by mass media Italian Journal
and the photo has a controversial responses.
Let's see together this photo well.
I see, it's just sums up Zionismreally.
I mean the expression on this soldiers face is closer to a

(02:40):
kind of an ape in in the jungle than than a human being.
It's but it is marvellously expressive and descriptive.
You don't need to talk about what it means, you can see it.
But it it means a lot. What do you think, Matt?
I mean, I agree with God. It's, it's, it's Zionism in one

(03:01):
pitch. You know, the domination, the
the vile racism and the, the imbalance of power as well
because of course the Zionist system allows these sadistic
settlers to have complete power over a Palestinian.
The woman in the picture looks like she has no recourse to to
stop the the abuse she's getting.
But it's also interesting the reaction to that photo being

(03:23):
published because it's caused the controversy.
And the controversy is instructive in itself because
it's been that that magazine L'espresso in Italy has been
accused of anti-Semitism and effectively, well, that's a real
photo. So they're saying if you if you
if you show the reality of Zionism, if you show the reality

(03:45):
of settlers and how the system works, that is by definition
anti-Semitism. It's absurd.
So you're in that kind of configuration.
You're only allowed to talk about Zionism in a positive way.
If you talk about it negatively,then it's by default
anti-Semitic. This has been a propaganda
technique of the the Zionists since the start of Israel.

(04:06):
But the Israeli ambassador to Rome was really annoyed with
this picture and I want to read his tweet, The Israeli
ambassador and Rome, Jonathan plead, he tweeted.
We strongly condemn the manipulative use of the recent
cover on Las Presso. The image distorts the complex
reality with which Israel must coexist, promoting stereotypes

(04:27):
and hatred. Responsible journalism must be
balanced and fair. My question to you both
actually, what is so complex about this picture?
This picture did not happen in isolation.
I mean, we saw many, many pictures of the same Israeli
settlers, the same Israeli soldiers who do the same to the
Palestinians who are picking up olives.

(04:47):
It happens every single day. The moment, the moment a
minister media in the West takesa picture of what actually
happens, that is anti-Semitic, That's manipulative.
That is complicated. What is so complicated about
this picture? Yeah, look, it's not complicated
at all. It's, it's, it's, it is what it
shows exactly. And the brutality of these,

(05:13):
these so-called settlers, they are sadists and psychopaths, a
lot of them, frankly, their brutality is so obvious, it's so
well known. You know, you can only you can
try imagine, imagine having these people living near you.

(05:35):
And in fact, that really remindsme of I, I'd gone to an activist
meeting somewhere and I was talking about the settlers.
This is in in London. And, and when I came out, this
Jewish, very distressed Jewish person came up to me and said,
why do you talk like this? You know, this is not good.

(05:58):
I said, listen, would you like these people to move into
Finchley, which is where this man, he looked horrified and I
didn't see him anymore that evening.
So that's the whole thing. Yeah.
And, and, and you know that the,the Zionist trick, the one it's

(06:18):
employed all along, is shoot themessenger so you don't deflect
attention from the message, which is of a rampaging set of
human beings, psychopathic, out of control.
To deflect from that, you then start talking about the person

(06:39):
who's showing you the true picture.
Yeah. And, and another technique is
what you mentioned, Ahmed, whichis the, the, the, this idea of
complexity, because the there's no complexity in the whole
conflict. There's no complexity from the
start of Zionism. Especially on the matter of
settler violence. In the West Bank, of course,

(06:59):
yeah. I mean, well, they're illegally
in the West Bank, but even if you look at the, the whole
history of Zionism, it's such anabsurd idea that you can just
impose A supremacist state on a,a, a, a country that's already
inhabited by indigenous people. And it, but the, but they know
that they're aware that what they, what they, what they
defend is indefensible. So in the absence of having a, a

(07:23):
proper defence, you just muddy the waters by saying it's
complex. We don't quite know who's who
the, the, the victim is here andwho's the oppressor.
And I mean, it's absurd because you clear away the propaganda
and it's as clear as day. There's nothing complex about it
at all. They should be out of the West
Bank. And actually, Israel shouldn't
exist as a state because anyone who's on the left or progressive

(07:44):
or who's not a a supremacist of any kind shouldn't, shouldn't
agree. With that was composed by or
created by settler colonialism, by education.
And by and they saw it. Cleansing and killing of people.
And they were, they were self-conscious about that.
When the Zionists were planning this whole project, they, they
saw it as a colonial project, that, that the founders, The

(08:06):
Pioneers of Zionism, talked about the project in terms of a
colonial. Yeah.
And they were talking about it in a pride.
But now they're playing with theimage, yeah, of the of Israel.
So for for a while, we all know about, like for any
Palestinians, specifically in the West Bank, they saw the
image. That would be like, yeah, that's
our daily reality. What's about it?
They will be shocked that there is like, outrage in the world

(08:26):
about it. Yeah.
Because it's the norm. It's the what Israel have
created there. But at the same time, Israel
have been, you know, empowering what's called hilltop settlers
or youth. And they've been like, abusing,
they've been violating killing. Last week in the show, we talk
about the killing of old woman, a mother who was, like, beaten

(08:48):
to death by those settlers backed by Israeli soldiers.
But that image is something thatIsrael doesn't want.
So at the same time, while they're doing that, they have
created another version of the Israeli settlers, the soft 1,
the feminine and feminine. Yeah.
Who called? Yeah, Who called them?
Like they're talking about this expansion of Israel as a women,

(09:10):
Israeli women goal and somethingthat they have to do.
And they call themselves. Yeah, for them like to kill
others, displace them softly andthey call themselves also Heltop
girls as like a brand family thing where they disciplace
Palestinians and indigenous population, but they're branding
it as a feminist and divorce. So to to know more about this,

(09:34):
let's watch this video together about the settlers and how they
treat the Palestinians. It's just.

(10:37):
This is the same video in which the picture was taken, the same
scene. But this happens every day.
And the West Bank, you know, it happens every single day.
We're not so surprised to see it, but what I want to ask you
rather you by the way, these these are not soldiers, these in
Israeli uniform. They are settlers addressed in
Israeli uniform and they were backed by the Israeli army.

(11:02):
So it was a plan. It's engineered to go and
terrorize the Palestinians, kickthem out of the land, make that
make their life horrible. But my question to you, what is
a settler? Because settler could be, could
sound like a nice word, a soft word.
But in fact, these are not settlers.
These are thieves, the US usurpers.

(11:23):
They're terrorists who exist on Palestinian private lands.
What does it mean to you when you hear the word settlers?
Well, you're so right that usingthe term settler settlement
softens the blow if you like, soit makes you it.

(11:43):
In fact, it's evocative of what happened in the United States
when an invasion, really, which is what it was, came across from
Britain to America and took over, simply took over and
killed people and cleared the land.
These were settlers. So you're right, you're right.

(12:07):
But you know, in a way you actually have to which was self
in the shoes of the very early Zionists in in in which they had
to try and promote an absolutelyidiotic project.

(12:28):
Completely preposterous that that loads of people from
foreign to that area who come from outside actually propose to
take over the land of Palestine which was occupied by an
indigenous NATO people. The the idea was to take this

(12:50):
over, get rid of the native population, take their place and
have the world accepted. Well, from very early on, the
only way they knew, the only waythey could do that, quite apart
from the help of imperialists, which enabled them to to to do

(13:10):
this, they knew they would have to go on and on forever
propagandizing the project. So they'd have to invent lies.
They would have to use terminology to present a
particular picture. Settler is a good example.

(13:30):
So that people were completely confused at at at worst and
persuaded at best. So this is what they have to do.
It is a ceaseless effort. They cannot afford to let it
slip for one minute because the whole ugly truth will become

(13:53):
very clear to the eyes of the world.
And that's and. And they're getting more and
more hysterical. You can see, because there's so
much effort you can put into disguising a very bad odor.
In the end, the stench will overwhelm you.
This is what is happening. Another interesting point about

(14:14):
the, the propaganda you're talking about, the Zionist
propaganda is they try and separate the state from the
settlers and they, they try and say, well, and, and even if you
do hear minor criticism of Israel from Zionists, it's
always about, oh, well, I don't agree with what these settlers
are doing, but that state sanctioned that violence.
Settlements are okayed, voted onby the Israeli parliament.

(14:36):
They're backed up by judicial decisions from a kangaroo court.
So you can't separate the settler violence, the
psychopaths from the state itself.
Always protected, of course. Yeah.
And and and and and it's bipartisan as well that it's
not. If you look at the history of
settlement building in the, in the West Bank, it increased,

(14:57):
doubled under who Barack who's meant to be the, the liberal
Zionists on, on the previous Netanyahu administration in the,
in the 1990s. So that it's, it's part of the
whole Zionist goal, which is to clear the West Bank effectively
and take over. You know, after Oslo, they, they
separated into Area BC and Area C is under the control of the

(15:18):
Israelis and that's 61% of the West Bank.
And in my opinion, and in fact, the Alon plus plan and stuff
from the 90's, the Israelis effectively their final solution
probably is to annex the whole of Area C and then and then keep
these non non contiguous little cantons of Palestinians within
it and try and keep that on lifesupport while they can take
over. And that is the goal of the

(15:40):
whole of the Israeli establishment and it.
And actually, since the genocides started in Gaza,
they've ramped up that project. And in fact, we published an
article in Palestine Deep Dive by a journalist who's in the
West Bank who said that they're now moving into Area B as well,
which is under nominally PA control.
Yeah, more annexation. So who know that they see?

(16:03):
There are settlers in the heart of the Palestinian citizen.
Yeah. I mean, if you see, I've been
there, right? And that was near Hebron.
Hebron is the best expression ofZionism.
And by best I don't mean good. I mean just you can see it most
clearly. You like, you go down the
market. I remember you go down the
market in Hebron and there's grating all over the top.
And I was asking the Palestinians we were with, why

(16:24):
is there all this grating instead?
Because settlers moved up there and just throw stuff on us, acid
bricks, everything. And then and then we, I was
there with the international Solidarity movement in 2009 and
we were walking kids to school because kids to even get from
their house to their school. They were being attacked by
settlers. So the settlers are the the

(16:44):
sharp end of a vicious, racist, violent ideology.
That's just the reality of. And their plan is now to move to
Gaza. They have taken more than half
of the territories in Gaza. They destroyed everything,
everything east of the Yellow Line, which is which constitutes
more than 5056% of of of the Gaza Strip.

(17:07):
They are planning now to move tothe Gaza, to settle in Gaza.
I don't know, maybe they have already done that.
Yesterday I saw a video on Facebook of the Israeli army
celebrating some Jewish festivalcelebrating, sorry, the
Holocaust, the memorial of the commemorating the memorial of
the Holocaust in Gaza, in, in a building in Gaza.

(17:28):
I mean, and I we could recognizethe chairs.
The chairs are Palestinian. Even the chairs that they sit on
are Palestinian. So now that is Gaza and now this
week is the six, six months since the ceasefire was
announced. People think it's it's the
genocide is over. The genocide is never over.
It's ongoing. Not only from the 7th of

(17:50):
October, but way before that it was a slow genocide.
Now after the 7th of October, itwas a genocide in stereo.
It's now it's a slow genocide again.
And I have here some statistics of how many violations Israel
committed of the ceasefire. 2400violations, 754 Palestinians

(18:10):
killed, 99% of them are civilians.
Through the last hours, only among them a three-year old
child, but. Can you imagine?
99% of the 750 Palestinians who were killed in Gaza after the
ceasefire was announced are civilians?
Yesterday they bombed a police. So is there a thing that OK

(18:33):
bombing a police vehicle? It's these people are militant,
these are civilians. Police forces are civilians.
So my question, I'm sorry for ranting on for long, but what do
you think their plan is for Gaza, right?
Now, well, look, it, it, it seems to me it's very, very
obvious. And, and the fact that, you

(18:54):
know, the, the, the shocking details are commented on, they
shouldn't it, it, it's part of a, a particular project where
Israel has arrived at a, it intends to empty Gaza.
OK, That was the aim from the beginning.

(19:16):
And in, in that sense, the word genocide, while it's accurate,
was not their aim. Actually, their aim was to get
rid of the population. OK, now it's not changed.
Now they can't get rid of, they've found, they've tried,
they can't get rid of them physically.

(19:37):
They're killing them. They really are.
I'm telling, I don't know how much more obvious it is, you
know, they're allowing malnutrition, hunger,
starvation, disease, engineeringvermin which are infesting all
these tents. So any method to exterminate

(19:59):
them, this is what it is. So you know whether you call it
a ceasefire or you use these semantics, in reality that is
the drive. Which is just the journey Israel
is on and always was from the very beginning.
And Israel now is, you know, they are continuing the
genocide. They have created the condition.

(20:19):
So we're talking about the bombing.
We're talking about the breachesof the ceasefire.
But it's not just that how Israel is killing people.
Israel is killing people also bycreating the conditions of
murder, the conditions of death.As you've spoken already, we
know that Israel have damaged more than 80% of the housing
units in Gaza. So people are living in
makeshift tents surrounding by 10s of thousands of tons of

(20:43):
rebel and, you know, decomposed bodies and insects and all those
crawling animals that harm them.And people are like suffering a
lot of that because, you know, first of all, no one's used on
that. People lived in houses and
people had like dignified lives before very horrible lives under
the Israeli centre, colonialism,but dignified lives.

(21:03):
And second thing is that they'revery harmful.
And people now in Gaza are complaining a lot about the rats
outbreak in Gaza. They're attacking people,
they're attacking, they're eating, they're like, they're,
they're biting people and they're like, and the kids there
is like a story of a 28 days oldbaby, 28 old baby.

(21:27):
It's just like less than a monthand his father was was sleeping
in like a tent in Gaza after they've lost their home by
Israel and he woke up to like intensive screamings of his
baby. This baby, like Adam, his name
is Adam Lustas. And when he looked as his baby's
face was full of blood and he didn't know what happened.
So he rushed him to the hospital.

(21:48):
And in the hospital when they wiped the blood, they told him
those are rats bites. So his little baby was literally
eaten alive by a rat because of the condition that Israel have
created in Gaza. And like, this is the babies.
So they're eating babies. They're also biting diabetic
people who if they're bitten, they wouldn't even feel it.

(22:10):
And the the legs will be rotten and maybe will be cut with the
amputation level in Gaza, where like Gaza now have the highest
percentage of amputees in in theworld, specifically with
population, but even without thepopulation accounting.
So Israel have created all of those conditions.
But at the same time, we know that in Gaza we have around

(22:32):
22,000 people who need to be evacuated, that Israel have
injured and cancer patients and all of that.
And Israel only allowed around 55150 to get out.
But each day in Gaza, each day with the Israeli delay, up to 10
people die in Gaza, die waiting.And this is like massive number,
Yeah. And if Israel continued this,

(22:52):
more and more people will die more than the 1500 that already
died waiting. But that's the aim.
Look. But that's the aim of the
exercise. Exactly, Yeah.
You know, the faster they die, the happier Israelis.
Yes, it's an extermination campaign and it has been like
they they do, they've done it when they've been able to and

(23:13):
October the 7th gave them an opportunity that they hadn't had
before. But yes, it's the the reigning
ideology of the state from the start is we have to clear the
indigenous people out of this place.
And the the point is either you do that through passage to find
them to the point there's no resistance.
But if they resist, which they do steal Palestinians, then you
destroy them. And it's not just Palestine.

(23:33):
If you look at what Israel's doing in Lebanon, it's the same
philosophy. If they're saying Hezbollah,
until Hezbollah is completely destroyed, all resistance is
gone. We're going to destroy Lebanon.
And they're now saying, well, they're now occupying southern
Lebanon up to the Litani River, which is they won't leave.
And then the same with Iran, that they're bombing out of Iran

(23:54):
as well. So it's, it's a maximalist
ideology which does not tolerateany resistance at all.
And as you God, I mentioned the,the history of settler
colonialism in North America and, and the rest of the
Americas, and it was the same thing.
The Spanish killed people and the Brits until they stopped
resisting. And in the case of the Native

(24:15):
Americans, they were so barbaricfor so long that they they ended
up pacifying to the point where they put them on these
reservations of arid land where they still are.
And then I don't think that's going to happen in Palestine
because I don't think there's the same.
I mean the other, the other alternative is Algeria.
A story that broke my heart a few days ago of the little girl.
Retaj Abdul Rahman Rehan was a nine year old.

(24:40):
And she was happy. Her family were happy that they
sent her to school after two or three years of genocide.
And she was dressed up in nicer clothes, going to school,
leaving her twin home. This is this is Ritaj.
And then in her classroom, 2 kilometres away from the yellow
line, the Israeli snipers shot her and killed her.

(25:01):
They killed a little girl who is9 years old in her classroom.
And this was not an explosion. This was not a collapsed
building. There were no fighters there.
It was inside. Whatever.
The yellow line is. Little girl.
But why? Why did Israel kill that and now
allow me to ask? Sorry, Doctor Red, allow me to

(25:22):
ask mad this question. The Israeli state that they did
not allow the international journalists to go to Gaza to
commend these war crimes becauseit was a combat zone, because
they were scared for their safety.
OK, now you present to the worldthat this genocide is over, Why
aren't they allowing international journalists to

(25:43):
enter Gaza? And why are they still killing
Palestinian journalists in Gaza?Well, those two things are
linked. They don't want the truth to
come out about what's happening in Gaza and they haven't from
the start because journalists gointo combat zones all the time.
In the wars in Yugoslavia in the90s and stuff that would senior
mainstream journalists all over the place.
But the Israelis are basically running a propaganda operation

(26:07):
to cover up a genocide and that is why they haven't let in
journalists. They still won't let in
journalists because the degree of devastation is such that they
don't want the pictures to come out.
They don't know reports on the front page of the newspapers.
But that an interesting you can see you saw why they're so keen
to keep Gaza close to journalists when those

(26:29):
journalists went in. I don't know if you remember
last year when they they allowedjournalists to go on the aid
planes and those images came outand actually that had a major
impact in the mainstream becausepeople were shocked.
And I saw a shift in mainstream journalists saying, Oh my God,
there's actually an ITV crew that's got footage of this.
This is the. Holocaust this is This is.

(26:49):
Out, out of control. So they don't want, I don't know
why they're actually, I think those journalists weren't
allowed to film that, but they did exactly so.
And then you saw why Israel keeps it so tightly controlled
and then that it's the same for why they, I mean, what the
Israelis did to to to the journalists of Gaza is just
unprecedented. They killed.

(27:11):
I can't remember what the status.
Is 94 and. Yeah.
Like Al Jazeera journalist a fewdays ago.
I think it's all wars since the Second World War.
They killed more journalists together.
They killed more journalists in the genocide in Gaza.
So they and of course it was targeted.
We know that the individual cases like Ansar Sharif, Assam,
Sujabhat, they went after them because they were telling the

(27:34):
truth and it's and they operate of complete impunity.
If any other country did that, it would just be an outrage 2.
192 Palestinian. Journalists.
Yeah. I mean, what other state could
get away with that? Not even close.
Yeah, not even close. Because that's so clearly
targeting. It's not.
They can't. I mean, of course the Israelis
will say, well, they're it's collateral damage, but of course

(27:54):
it's not. It's clearly they're targeted.
They're targeted. They're tents.
It's deliberate and we can't seehow systematic is that doctor
that I think wanted to say something about.
Yeah, you. Know I tell you this this
wonderful discussion is throwingup so many fundamental questions
about all those I mean just now what we would be just talking
about just now all it evokes it it provokes one to ask this

(28:20):
question that we've asked so many times why is this being
allowed to happen exactly This is the fundamental question, you
know for which without which none of this Israel could not
get away with all this I mean imagine that Israel is in a

(28:41):
situation where nobody stops it doing anything it feels like so
of course the the the the the brutality the monstrous things
we've been seeing are the directresult of people who are out of
control and allowed to be out ofcontrol.

(29:02):
I cannot really, I cannot get over this strange situation in
which the world looks on, sees all this and you, we've just
talked about, you know, the glimpse that they had through
the journalists who went on the airplane.

(29:23):
And yet it all immediately dies down.
And it's made to lie that to, todie down, I think, in order to
save Israel. So the one question then leads
to the other question, why save Israel?
What is so special? What is so important about
Israel that you have to preserveit?

(29:43):
Even though it's monstrous, it'sbrutal.
It's because of that exactly. It's created as a functional
state to have, you know, to accomplish the Western goals in
what they call the Middle East, to kill people, to control their
resources, to benefit from that and to control the whole Middle
East. And as you said, like to fight

(30:04):
any resistance, but also for it to expand and normalize in that,
in that. So it's exactly what you've
said. Why the state and Israel has
been created? But I think that I think there
is another element of it as well.
I agree with that. But there is also the role of
the the lobby, right? And there's always this debate
about how much is to do with it being a, a, a outpost of the

(30:26):
Empire and how much is the lobby.
It's probably a mix of the two, but it does Zionism from the
start, as Garda mentioned, they knew the early Zionists that the
only way they were going to get their stake created was if they
got the imperial power of the day on their side.
And literally it was a lobbying operation from the start, which
and it's never stopping. And then at the time it was the
British and they lobbied hard inLondon like Chain, Wiseman and

(30:47):
others and they got the Balfour Declaration.
Then after the Second World War,the US took over as the hegemon
and the Israel lobby expanded massively in the United States.
And they, and it's not just the political system, it's the media
system is they see it as as the key to maintaining all the stuff
that God is talking about, the illusion about what Israel is

(31:10):
and and which is integral to itssurvival.
But I have to say, just to end on a more optimistic note, I
think that all of that's crashedand burned during the genocide,
not in terms of its how it's promoted in the establishment,
in the media, and but amongst the population at large because
of social media, because there'sways round the legacy

(31:31):
institutions. Now, you talk to most people and
they talk like us, or maybe not like us, but close to us.
And there's this massive disconnect now between the
establishment, the state and theruling class and the population,
not just here in Europe, in the United States.
And that is not tenable for a long period.
And that is why you're seeing inthis country why they're, if
the, if the government, that's the ruling class, lose control

(31:55):
of the propaganda system, lose control of the narrative and
their population is on a different page.
The only thing you have to revert to is the law.
And they're now using the law todiscipline us.
Like if you see unprecedented actions like like prescribing
Palestine action as a terrorist group.
Just yesterday, Parliament votedto, to, to give police powers

(32:16):
that they can't do repeat protests like these are freedoms
we've won in this country through centuries of popular
struggles and they're all being dismantled on behalf of a
genocidal entity 3000 miles away.
It's a mate. It's surreal to watch that this
could happen and but it's happening.
And I think that does go to the power of the the lobbying

(32:37):
operation which has built up forso, so long and also is cleverly
done by the lobby because some of it, yes, they have Israel in
the title, like Labour Friends of Israel or AIPAC, American
Israel public, what was Israel political action committee.
But a lot of it doesn't have Israel on the title.
They present it as Jewish communal groups.

(32:57):
So it's harder to even see the whiff of the trees.
Like the Board of Jewish Deputies, which presents itself
as representing communal Jewish interest is actually effectively
an Israel lobby group. And if you look at their
statements, if you look at theirmeetings, when they go into talk
to the UK government, they're talking about Israel.
They're not talking about Jewishissues in the sort of communal
sense. So there's this whole web of

(33:17):
control, which is then utilized and weaponized against anyone
who speaks against Israel, like Jeremy Corbyn.
And there's plenty of other examples.
And what that does is create an ecosystem where if you want to
get on in your career, if you'rea media or politics, you have to
take a pro Israel line. Yeah, you.
Have. To you.

(33:38):
Have to sell your soul? Yeah, that brings us back to the
Iran war, because one of the things that the Iran war has so
far has been showing it is Israel's role in this war.
So not only in dragging the United States into it, but this

(34:01):
is in in, in the, the the discourse.
It's not a thing confined to social media.
People are openly talking about this, number one.
Number two, the fact that and the negotiations which was just
been taking place in Islamabad and appeared to be going
reasonably well. And then the report says

(34:24):
suddenly the American side said,no, no, no, we have to have a
complete refusal for to for Iranto enrich free uranium at all.
And it seemed to follow a phone call.
Well, what a mystery. So the phone call was clearly

(34:47):
with Israel and clearly Israel gave his instructions.
So this is coming out now. You know, Doctor Raddai,
sometimes when I think about it,I laugh and I think about what
Israel has on America that make that that can force them to be
dragged into a war that doesn't interest them at all.

(35:10):
How come this rogue small estatein the Middle East can force the
biggest, most powerful country in history to do stuff, to risk
it's soldiers and it's money andresources, it's reputation,
everything. What have they got on them?
It's just a, it's a, it's AI just think it's an extensive
lobbying. As I say from the start, they,

(35:32):
they have been lobbying and that's how they've got their
state created. That's how they've maintained
survival and they know look, yeah.
But also if you, as you mentioned, it's a small state,
it's 9 million people, right? It's population is smaller than
London. They cannot survive for a day
without the United States. So if in that context, if you
were in the Israeli government or state, you'd be, you'd, you'd

(35:53):
know your priority is to make sure that political system is
captured effectively and workingfor you.
Otherwise it's a survive. It's an existential thing.
Although I do think it is interesting what you're saying
because I don't even know if it's unprecedented.
Has has a colony. And if you think, I think it
kind of is a colony of the United States.
Has a colony ever hijacked the political system of the Empire,

(36:14):
like the Roman Empire? That never happened.
It didn't happen with the British Empire.
I've never I I don't know of a occasion where that it's
happened. It's never happened.
But I think it's it's also. Is it America?
But it also, it's well, it also is a malfunctioning of American
democracy because you, if you'rea smart imperial power, you
wouldn't allow your political system, you wouldn't give it the

(36:36):
the avenues to be hijacked like the Chinese don't do that.
Like you, you have these huge lobbying operations that places
like Israel. Them so.
Of course, yeah. Like last week we were talking
about the ceasefire agreement between Iran and and the US and
that Netanyahu has agreed that few hours later Israel has
committed the worst massacre in Lebanon, killing more than 200

(36:57):
people and then ceasefire collapsed.
So what does Israel exactly have?
But. But just to there's a specifics
on that as well. Jonathan Powell, who's the
national security adviser to Keir Starmer, was involved in
the meetings with with earlier ones with the UN.
And he said we view Jared Kushner and Steve Winkoff, who
are two of Trump's people as agents of the Israelis.

(37:20):
Just Jonathan Powell said that Israeli.
Yeah. And I think there's one further
interesting point about the America Israel thing in that
they the American or part of theAmerican establishment, see them
their own story in Israel, because they are they were
founded in quite similar ways. They were founded by stealing
indigenous land and their settler colonies.

(37:41):
And then you had manifest destiny, which was what how the
US took on took over. This is a.
Proverb Bells of feather flock together.
Yeah, but anyway, I would love to talk more about it, but we'll
have to move to the other section.
But before you do, if a message to our audience, if you are
enjoying this show, please don'tforget to hit the like button

(38:03):
and subscribe on YouTube. And if you want to support our
work, we warm. We warmly welcome you to become
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Your support helps us build independent Palestinian LED
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Find the link in the descriptionbelow.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Ahmed.

(38:25):
So as you have heard, there's some glimpse of hope now.
Flotilla is going out again. They will be launching their
their boats ceiling sailing fromBarcelona to Gaza this week in
Chala. So let's watch this video
together and then talk more about that.

(39:26):
So when we watched such a video,I feel like very optimistic.
I feel hope because it reminds me of when I was a little girl
in 2010 and the first the flotilla I saw like myself sales
to us and how we felt like the seizure is now over.
Internationals have came and youknow, also perceives and all of
that have came to break the siege on us and it's going to be

(39:48):
like the end of this five years of block it that for us starting
2005. What does it mean to you to see
the flotilla sailing again? Well, well, put it this way you
can understand it at different levels.

(40:08):
The most obvious is the indefatigable spirit of support
and solidarity with the Palestinian people.
Really that's the big message. So in so far as that gives hope

(40:28):
for humanity really and and for the people of Gaza to feel they
are not alone, somebody cares for them.
And remember them. And not only remembers them, but
we'll go through a lot of danger, try and help them, you
know. So at that level I can't help.
Of course, I feel exactly the same.

(40:49):
However, I also am mindful of the fact that the flotillas, the
way that Israel has behaved towards previous flotillas,
Israel is out of control. It doesn't care it it, it's not
interested in any kind of restriction on its movements.
So you know, it does worry one that I don't know how it will it

(41:15):
will end. Yeah, I mean, I agree with
Gadah. It's, it does, it's quite, it
has a profound impact that you see people who have no
connection with Gaza apart from being common humanity and
they're willing to risk their lives to, to break this brutal
siege. It's it's profound.

(41:36):
But, and I think again, it goes to I, I sometimes wonder why the
Palestinian cause is, has, has such resonance.
And I think it's one of the reasons is that there's no other
people that are so dehumanized and also have so many forces
reigned against them. They, the Palestinians, don't

(41:56):
have a state and they don't really have the infrastructure.
What's that not allowed? To have a state.
Not allowed to have a state exactly.
And they or the the the western media is so anti them that if it
if the only thing they have is the global population.
So we have to mobilise against the and no other people.
Well, there are other people in similar situations, but not in

(42:16):
the same way. So, and if you go to the global
S, the, the Palestinian cause resonates so much with people
because for the reasons we talked about, you know, it's so
clear that this is a colonial project that the victims of this
brutal racist endeavor. But I, I, I don't know what
Israel will do because it's not good PR for them, but for this

(42:39):
to keep going. And the more they go and Israel,
as we've talked about, they havecomplete impunity.
If you look what they did with the, with the British and, and
other nationalities of the last voted that they treated them
really badly. If you listen to the testimony
of Kieran Andrew and and others,they didn't give them water.
They put them in stress positions.
Chris Smalls, who was a black American activist who was on it,

(43:01):
said that he was beaten and he thinks it was a racist attack.
So they and, and what do our government say?
They say nothing. And that's quite scary.
That's quite scary. And I think even if they, and
there was a, there's a John Mearsheimer, a video that was
going around recently saying, look, if I went, he's an
American academic who actually wrote the book The Israel Lobby,

(43:21):
which is a very good book. But he was saying if I went to
West Bank and was shot and killed by the Israelis, I know
my government would do nothing for me but for my family there
would be no accountability. And that's happened many times
before. Of course it and it happened
written. British and American.
Of course, Tom Hoenbel was killed sheltering Palestinian
kids in in Gaza, but I actually think it would also be the case

(43:44):
here. I think if Mossad or or
something Israeli intelligence assets assassin started
assassinating people here, I don't think our our government
would would would actually find out what was happening or try
and get get justice. Would they do that?
Why would they do that? Because for them, the Israelis
are way more important than. You.
Yeah, well, I, I sent a tweet early in the genocide when I

(44:07):
was, you know, just it was surreal watching how pro Israel,
my, my government was when it was so clear what was happening.
I was like, I think even if Israel invaded the UK, Keir
Starmer might say a few words against it, but eventually end
up agreeing with it and said it was a good thing.
And and it is a joke, but it, it's not preposterous.
That's how mad the system is. Yeah, yeah.

(44:30):
I don't know how we got well, we've discussed.
We have explanation for it. Let's watch this video with
Faiza Shaheen, The Economist, and maybe this video explains
why. Yeah, with NHS, but you, you
spoke there about you're not, it's not political like you have
in Palantir has such a key role in helping Israel kill children

(44:50):
in Palestine and Lebanon that that has to be aligned surely.
And what does a company that is so involved in how to kill
children with Israel and how to deport children from the US have
an interest in the NHS and in our data?
And I think that's the concern here is the lack of trust.

(45:10):
Now you can read out that list. Absolutely.
You speak to doctors, they say that it's fragmented and the
information isn't all in one place.
And the rest of it as patients as well.
But there's lots of other companies that could do that who
don't have this deeply immoral approach in the way that they do
their business. And I think we are absolutely
right and and Zach Polanski is absolutely right to say that we

(45:31):
want your company out of the NHS.
This is Louis Mosley. I think he's related to Mosley.
Is he? So, Matt, tell me.
Tell me what you know about thiscompany, Palantir.
Palantir Palantir is a product of the of the period after
September 11th when basically one of the major criticisms of

(45:54):
the American intelligence and national security establishment
was that they couldn't aggregateinformation well.
And that was why 911 happened because basically all this
intelligence was dispersed across different agencies.
There was no one controlling kind of looking at the big
picture. So Palantir, which was founded
by Peter Thiel and Alex Karp, who are kind of too far right

(46:17):
ideologues, but and entrepreneurs, they, they, they
started in that, in that environment.
In fact, they they began with a money from the venture capital
arm of the CIA and it was all about using aggregate
information basically across initially militaries and
intelligence agencies. And so you could get target

(46:39):
lists easily, you could work outmovements of different targets
very easily. And then they moved into
government stuff. They have two systems, Gotham
and Foundry. Gotham is the one that they use
with military intelligence agencies and foundries, the one
that the NHS. And so the NHS signed a contract

(47:01):
with them in 2023 for over £300 million to basically do the
similar thing to aggregate information across all different
NHS agencies. So GPS, hospitals, blah, blah,
blah. But it's absurd because they are
as Pfizer said in that clip, they are intimately involved in
the genocide in Gaza and and therest of the oppression across

(47:22):
Palestine because in firstly, Alex Karp, the CEO has made
countless pro Israel and genocide we.
Have a video of. Alex Karp OK, let's see this
video Which. Disciplines a lot.
By himself. That a few people get wealthy
and if you said platitudes that were obviously stupid, you could

(47:44):
you're. Getting wealthy off of killing
Palestinians with out here killed Palestinians with their
AI and. Technology.
Oh, killing my family. Yeah.
And you know, well, if you do, you want to hear my answer.
OK, So I, I think the primary cause of death to Palestinians.

(48:07):
OK. Do you want it?
You want to hear the answer or do you want to yell?
Well, do you don't want to hear an answer?
Obviously. So the primary source of of
death in Palestine is the fact that Hamas has realized that
there are millions and millions of useful idiots that will can

(48:35):
we get security up there? OK, let one of the OK, one of
the most OK. Your AI and.
Your technology from. Palantir to kill Palestinians,
mostly terrorists, that's true. Terrorists, mostly.
Yeah, that's. That is a confession that his
technology was used to kill Palestinians in Gaza.

(48:58):
By the way, this video is so telling.
Look, when she accused him of killing his family or her
family, look, his body language,how he was unresting.
He, he, he is definitely up to something.
And as someone who lives in the UK and as someone who lost his
family in the genocide, knowing that my health records at the
NHS could be seen or have they could have access to it, it's so

(49:23):
scary. It's so scary.
Doctor Rad, you're a physician. Yeah, look.
What is your take on this? It's, well, no.
I share all the concerns about Palantir and the fact that it
has been introduced into the health service is disastrous.
What I don't understand is why? Why invite them?

(49:46):
Is there? Is the world completely devoid
of any other sort of company like them that you could use
without their record? See what I cannot understand?
So of course it makes me suspicious that some decisions
at at at a high level are being taken to introduce companies

(50:11):
like this into the into the public sphere in this country.
Yeah, I'm horrified. I mean they in January 2024, so
3 months into the genocide, theysigned publicly a strategy.
Yeah, with the so-called IDF, they signed a strategic
partnership agreement. So they have been intimately

(50:33):
involved and all their systems are integrated into the
targeting and we know that they've been targeting civilians
from the beginning, so. And they're publicly like
Palantir. They're publicly saying that
they are proudly supporting Israel.
Yeah. And if they have confessed that
they kill what they call terrorists, that what, like that
category that he's talking aboutis actually more than 72,000

(50:56):
Palestinians. More than 20,021 thousand of
them are children. Those are Palestinian children
with, like, dreams and, you know, hopes and identities that
they have been part of killing them.
And they're proudly calling themterrorists and campaigning
against them. Yeah, it's what Ahmed said.
His body language is so telling.You know, they, they, they he's

(51:18):
a sick person who does not see Palestinians as human beings.
Yeah, and. And.
And you could. And it's the same as Nazi
ideology. If you can, if you can, you can
put everyone in the category of a terrorist or whatever, whether
they're kids or whatever, then you can live with yourself by
being part of that genocidal machine.
But it's, it's, it's sick that we have invited them into the

(51:43):
NHS because they will say, Oh, well, we only providing the
software, we don't have access to records or whatever.
But that's never the case with these companies.
You can always create backdoors and there's ways that you can
access the information. Of course, information is power.
If they get well, they have got control over the information
within the NHS. They can use that to expand even
further. It's.

(52:04):
It's like scary for the British public.
I think the Green Party is now opposing this and they're
against this like agreement between the NHS.
And so it's like a positive stepif such a company that has not
just killed and participated in the murder and committing of the
genocide against other people, but also their part of ICE and
the US. So they're all like a campaign

(52:26):
against them, immigrants and allof that.
So such a horrible company is actually having the right to
deal with the information of patients, the care, you know,
with the interest values. It's not actually.
I know, I mean, it's very, it's very interesting that the NHS in
particular seems to have been infiltrated by pro Israel

(52:49):
elements really, because it's ifit's not only this, but the fact
that there is a camp, honestly, there is a kind of campaign of
terror against doctors and nurses.
Anybody who wears either a symbol, however small to show
solidarity with Palestine. People who are outspoken in

(53:15):
social life, not nothing to do with their medical practice are
punished. And the best, of course, the
most recent and famous example is Rasan Abu Sita.
The campaign against. The campaign against this
wonderful reconstructive surgeonwho has been so brave, going out

(53:36):
to Gaza, helping people. In Gaza and Lebanon, all the
crimes Israel's committing. Now this man is the victim of
persecution by the General Medical Council.
Yeah, what is going on? There are demands now for the
executive board of the Medical General Medical Council to to

(53:58):
resign because of those attacks.Absolutely, of course.
But but you see, even at simple level, my own GP, for example,
who is Pakistani and sympatheticto Palestine, the Palestine
'cause he has told me that he's very nervous about being

(54:19):
outspoken or saying anything which could be misinterpreted by
Jewish patients who then would report him.
I mean, if it's that sort of level, this is really very
serious. This is terrorism.
I think you terrorize people from speaking up for just causes
all around the world. You know, we have Hala and I, we

(54:41):
have so many mutual friends, Palestinian doctors who work
here in the UK. Amazing, wonderful people who
are from Gaza. Whose?
Families. Survivors, yes, but they're so
scared of speaking up, of writing a tweets on Twitter or
Facebook because they fear that they might lose their GMC

(55:02):
registration. This is horrendous.
This is horrible how how we allowed the system to go on.
Well, because you see, we're back to the power of Israel and
its allies who have been left inpeace to infiltrate so many

(55:25):
organisations, so many institutions all over the
Western world. It's really very it's it's, it
should be in itself a subject ofthis, of debate.
It should and also it should be a subject of investigation
because you now, you know, they always talk about the foreign
interference in Britain and it'salways in the context of China

(55:46):
and Russia. But the much more serious
interference in our system is Israel by orders of magnitude
and it's never mentioned. We need a massive public inquiry
into Israel and its different agents in this country and its
control over our political system.
Because you mentioned infiltration of the NHSI.
Just read in the Financial Timesyesterday, there was a story
about whistleblowers within the NHS who have been called by

(56:09):
their bosses after they said we don't want to use the Palantir
system. And they were told if you speak
out again, you're going to lose your job explicitly.
So, so and, and what it is, is that they'll be knows what it's
doing, it's law, fair. So what you do is you chase
anyone who puts their head abovethe parapet because you want a
deterrent to stop people speaking out.

(56:30):
Because as soon as that that that wall is broken, which I
kind of think it already has been because people are braver
now, but because we've seen suchthe levels of of horror of being
escalated even again. Who makes the decision?
Because the British Medical Association is also opposing
this, opposing the relationship.What you mean who makes it what?

(56:53):
Right. Well, yeah.
Well, I don't. Know.
We don't know. The government in that.
It's publicly, it's a public service which is government
owned. So that this is, you know, so
you, you can, you, you don't have to look far to see what
government interferes. But it does show how how brittle
their institutions are that theycan just like I I always think

(57:16):
that, you know, this horrific organization called UK Lawyers
for Israel. Oh yeah, which is like they're
like pantomime villains. They're so evil.
What they do like they get kid but but they go after anyone
like even that Chelsea and Westminster Hospital in London,
which became infamous because they celebrated it they.
Were terrified of. The kids are, yeah, which which
is kind of shows how insecure they are because it's

(57:38):
preposterous. But the Green Party opposed the
Palantir infiltration in the NHSsystem.
The The Green Party also might be the first major political
party in the UK that might be anti Zionist.
This is a big deal. What does it?

(57:58):
What does it mean? No, it's a very.
If we have a major political party, that is.
It's, it would be, it's, it's really a big deal because it
would be the first political party in the Western world,
never mind in Britain, that tooka a position on Zionism, racism.
Secondly, that the the future lies in a democratic single

(58:23):
state replacing the state of Israel.
This is very radical stuff and we know that and I think you
were there. Were you there at the meeting?
Yeah, I was at the conference when it was meant to be voted on
you. Probably would say no more about
it. I mean, you can talk more about
it, but it's the fact it's happening at all is number one,

(58:48):
very remote. Telling you.
Secondly, the fact that it's nowon the agenda, it's now on the
political agenda is really important.
Yeah. And there is promise of more.
Yeah, well, it hasn't passed yet, right?
So this is the motion that was Co written, but mainly written
by Lubnus Baitan, who's a Palestinian Green Party member.

(59:11):
And the title is Zionism is Racism.
But actually the motion itself is really detailed and about
what what the Green Party's position would be on Palestine.
And it would be a single democratic state, Palestine
without any super special laws for different ethnicities or
races. And so I was at the conference,

(59:32):
it was meant to be voted on at the spring conference, which was
about a couple of weeks ago, butit was scuppered by Zionist
sabotage basically, unfortunately.
But they did, they sabotage the proceedings because they knew
that we would have voted, the membership would have voted for
the motion, which is incredible.You know, there were two votes
we had which were just procedural votes trying to get

(59:53):
the motion higher up the, the schedule and stuff.
And we won them overwhelmingly. So it was clear.
So then they started filibustering towards the end.
And we didn't have time to to doit, but there's there'll be,
there's another conference in autumn and it will pass then.
And they're basically just trying to put hold back the tide
now. Yeah.
And as you say, as goddess, likeI said, it's so I think people

(01:00:14):
are missing how important this is because according to some
polls now, the Green Party is the most popular party in, in,
in England. And, and there's a different
Green Party in Scotland, but in England it's the most popular
party. So if you have potentially, well
likely having an anti Zionist position, this is a red line
that the Zionists have guarded like, like, like religiously

(01:00:36):
for, for, for since the start. And it's, and you, if you look
at the, the, the Israeli press and the Zionist press here, they
are freaking out. Like there's been major attacks
on Lubna personally, there's been major attacks on the Green
Party. In fact, there was even 1 today
I was reading the Daily Telegraph just.
Why do you need the? Data No, I saw it on Twitter.

(01:00:57):
I saw it on Twitter. I, I, I don't buy the data
Telegraph. That is one thing I won't do.
But but, but the point is like they, they know how important it
is that this is once the, once that, that Rubicon is crossed,
then everything changes and it'sgoing to happen.
And also interestingly, the, theleader of the Green Party is a
Jewish man. So they, they, they don't have
the same tactics. They can't use the same tactics.

(01:01:19):
So, Matt, what I wanted to ask you now, I, I see some some most
recent polls in the UK that indicate that the Green Party
might win general elections if they if they were conceived in
the near future. But still, I'm, I'm very

(01:01:39):
worried. I'm very worried that restore
Britain, but reform might eventually win the elections.
My question again, why the hell can't lift this party, unite,
form an alliance? I mean, if, if reform is in
government, if resource is in government, that will be an

(01:02:02):
existential moment for all of us.
That will be the end at the end of the UK as we know it.
Yeah, the democracy. What is it?
What is it with the with the leftist parties that make them
unable to work together and to put aside all of their
differences? Well, there's a long history of
that, to put it honest, to be honest.
But I think that there that's actually not a problem right now

(01:02:24):
because there is only one left party and that's a Green Party.
Unfortunately, there's your party, but it seems to be
collapsing. I person my personal taken.
I'm not don't get involved in the internal machinations, but I
just think that that too much has happened now that it's not a
viable vehicle anymore. And also we have the Green

(01:02:45):
Party, which is movable. It's not perfect in every way,
but it's a Democratic Party that, like we've talked about,
you can get radical policies through.
So I think that the Green Party is the only game in town.
I don't think they'll win an election.
I mean, the problem for the Green Party is that they, the
vote split with Labour. That's why I think Labour should

(01:03:06):
stand down. In fact, I think Labour should
dissolve itself and we should have no more Labour Party and we
can all the all the progressive votes can go to the Greens and
then they could win a general election.
But right now, because they're polling a little bit more than
Labour, it would split across the country.
But yeah, I totally agree with you.
The the threat is huge because Reform are are close to fascist.

(01:03:29):
They're definitely like on on far right and met.
There's elements of fascism. The important thing about reform
as well is that they are super pro Israel.
You have a union party on Palestine and Israel in the UK.
It's the Labour, Conservatives and Reform or all this pro
genocide or defend apartheid. And the Greens are the only one

(01:03:50):
that have any principal positions on Palestine.
And it actually goes for the whole foreign policy as well.
Even if, although Starmer says I'm standing, well, the media
presents Starmer standing up to Trump on Iran.
He hasn't. He's allowed UK bases to be used
to bomb Iran, which makes us participants in my opinion.
But then also reform supported the the, the, the attack on

(01:04:10):
Iran, the conservatives, obviously.
So the Greens are they can Hoover up all the votes because
Reform present themselves as anti establishment, but in fact
they're deeply establishment andall their positions are quite
similar to the to Labour and Tories.
In fact, all three parties have similar positions and
immigration is used as this issue, which is to show that
they're different, but on everything else they're not so.

(01:04:33):
But it's very, very dangerous. I don't think.
I don't know what we do. I, my personal take is we just
got to go to the Greens because it's there.
It's an established party. We don't need to set it up.
There's no problems with internal.
I initially was very into your party, I signed up and then it
just seemed to collapse in real time.
Yeah, Thank you, Matt. But it's very important for us

(01:04:54):
also to remember that this Friday, the 17th of April is the
Prisoners Day. And it's a very like, remarkable
and historical day for us as Palestinians, but also for the
word, for solidarity and standing with the Palestinians,
right of liberation and self determination and freedom from
Israeli prisons. And it's important to remember

(01:05:14):
that on this day, Israel has more than 10,000 Palestinians
detainees. More than 3500 of them are
without trial, so they are underadministrative detention.
And among them we're talking about children, hundreds of
children imprisoned there. We're talking about 30 to 40
women. And also a child, a less than

(01:05:35):
year old child is also imprisoned at the Israeli
detention camp. So when we talk about like
prisoners, what does Palestinianprisoner mean for the
Palestinian struggle? Well, look, it it's not, it's
completely in character for a state like the state of Israel,

(01:05:57):
which regards Palestinians as the number one enemy and who
should not be alive really or should not be there.
And so they don't care. They really don't care.
Because if you, you know, you know the word prisoner does not
give any idea of what they're being imprisoned for.

(01:06:19):
And of course, so many of the, of the, the prisoners so-called
in, in, in Israeli prisons are resistance fighters in one form
or another, very minor ways to more more important ways.

(01:06:40):
You know, you, you just have to not look right for an Israeli
soldier to arrest you and throw you into jail.
It's very simple. What really kills me about the
Israeli system is that the, the,the propaganda effort they've
gone to to present themselves asa rule, the the rule of law

(01:07:02):
so-called. So they have prisons and they
have legal systems and they havejudges, the whole thing, their
kangaroo courts, their their show places to to say to the
Western world, look, we're like you where democratic, we're
civilized. We have legal systems, we don't

(01:07:25):
just throw people into jails, but of course that's what they
do. They throw them into jails and
then create a system of killing them with a disability so
they're even worse than anyone would imagine.
They're not just killing people in fields, they also legitimize
that. Yes.
And of course, once you've got asystem up and running like that,

(01:07:47):
who's going to stop you? Who's going to They have total
control over the, the, the, the Palestinian population, not to
speak of the abuse of prisoners,which is atrocious.
It's really atrocious. Yeah, yesterday the Euromed
Human Rights have published a report called Another Genocide

(01:08:08):
Behind Walls, where they speak about the sexual violence as a
systematic weapon used by Israelto distract the Palestinians, to
humiliate them, but also as it'sused as organized state policy
with impunity. Also in the report, they're
they're speaking about so many acts of sexual violence, of rape

(01:08:29):
with like by Israeli soldiers, female and male Israeli
soldiers. They're talking about very by
trained dogs to commit this crime against our detainees.
And also they're talking about different acts of videotaping
them and shaming them, humiliating them and having
other soldiers watching them while those acts of crimes are
committed. And they're like plenty of

(01:08:50):
testimonies only collected from Gazelle of people who have been
detained within the time of the genocide and released after
that. And it's horrific.
Like looking at and listening tothose stories is very painful.
But because those stories and this reality is silence, it's
our responsibility to share it. And one of the stories is for a

(01:09:11):
42 year old Palestinian woman who has been kidnapped from her
area in the north of where she was residing after displacing
multiple times. And she was kidnapped by the
Israeli occupation, taken to Sidi Timon detention camp.
And in that place she was taken by 4 Israeli soldiers or was

(01:09:33):
taken by Israeli soldiers, put on a metallic plate and
handcuffed and also had legs were were also like Titan.
And after that, she was unfortunately raped and filmed
by those soldiers. SO4 Israeli soldiers have done
that. Two of them have raped her, like

(01:09:53):
one each. And then two of them have
videotaped this process. And it's not just like women who
have been repeatedly raped. Multiple reports have been like,
like sexual violence have been committed against men in a
horrific level. And even in the report itself,
more men have been reported to have been sexually assaulted.

(01:10:14):
One of them is the 43 year old Washdee where he speaks about
like it's a horrific thing, but basically on a day he was raped,
4 * 3 of them by Israeli soldiers and one by a trained
dog to rape him. And after two days he was also
raped by another three Israeli soldiers.
And this is all like we can't imagine the amount of harm,

(01:10:37):
physical harm, mental harm, emotional harm, the harm on the
reproduction of the Palestinians, but also the harm
of the dignity and the feelings of those Palestinian detainees.
And the numbers are still like UN, like unreported, because we
know that it's very difficult for the Brazilians to speak
about that. It's not just like enormous
sexual violence. It's sexual violence committed

(01:10:59):
and weaponized by the settler colonial power of the, of the,
the state itself, of colonialism.
And it's also very difficult to speak about specifically for
female detainees. So it's under represented for
sure. There's something that we know,
but my question is, we lived in the era of Me Too movement and

(01:11:19):
we've seen how sexual violence and feminists were speaking
everywhere about that and, you know, human rights organisations
and all of that movement. That was very appealing for
everyone. But where are they now from the
Palestinian plea? Where are they now from those
documented cases? And some of them are documented
by the Israelis of themselves. Where are they now?

(01:11:41):
Yeah, well, the, the, the look, all I can say is that cause rape
goes together with the power imbalance.
So when you have people who are absolutely helpless, have no one
to defend them, cannot defend themselves in those sorts of

(01:12:05):
situations, one of the things that happens is sexual violence.
There's no doubt about it. You know, not only is where,
where is everybody? Well, where are they?
I mean, remember the case of theman who the prisoner who was so

(01:12:26):
abused through his rectum that it ruptured.
And, you know, I tell you, speaking medically, it takes
tremendous force to do that because the rectum is really
very strong. It's got very strong walls.
It just gives you an idea of thekind of violence that was used

(01:12:48):
on this man. But the, the, the, the even more
horrific part is the way that a crowd gathered outside the court
where they were being tried for this crime and demanded their
release. And we haven't heard since about
these people. They've not been punished.

(01:13:09):
They've been like 3 weeks ago, Ithink a month ago they've been
like the whole case was dropped so there is nothing now about.
That no, of course not. But you know, let me just just
suggest an another way of that occurs to me of looking at this
what is quite apart from the victims.

(01:13:32):
I understand that, of course, but if you look at the
perpetrators and that applies tothe whole of the Israeli army,
you know, the brutalization of young men like this.
What is the future for people like that really?
And if you think of a a time beyond the, the, the current

(01:13:56):
war, can Israelis really imaginethat they can come together
again as a society when all their young men have been
damaged mentally, mentally sick and some are committing suicide?

(01:14:18):
Now, I'm not saying we, we are spending our our, our
sympathies. We are not, we are very
sympathetic to to the Palestinian side, the victims.
But for a moment, let's think about this as a phenomenon.
People who've been allowed to. Do that, I think.
And they're a process of dehumanizing us.

(01:14:39):
They dehumanize. Exactly, exactly, exactly.
And they have no future. Therefore, they actually have no
future. Yeah, they're becoming monstrous
and as you describe them, saddest, and they enjoy this
process. But it's, it's not just the,
it's not just the soldiers, you.I think Zionism as an ideology

(01:14:59):
is a maker of monsters. Because if you just go on
Twitter during the genocide and see the gleeful nature with
which atrocities were were were greeted by major Zionist
accounts, not fringe people, mainstream liberal Zionists and
stuff, it's shocking. One of the most traumatic things
for me was being exposed to Zionism.
Zionists I didn't know you couldget.

(01:15:21):
And it even happens with Lebanonnow.
We've seen it the last week. Because look, if you have a
colonial ideology which is basedon racial supremacy or ethnic or
religious supremacy, the only way you can look in the mirror
and not see a monster is to dehumanize the people you're
stealing from. So you have to dehumanize, you

(01:15:41):
have to say that they're all terrorists.
They're they're backward, they're uncivilized.
So you can take their land without feeling bad about it.
So the whole of Zionism is basedon dehumanizing Palestinians.
I'm not feeling bad about. I'm not feeling bad about it.
Yeah, well, because they deserveit, because they're animals.
And look, you have seen it. You have the people like Joab
Gallant calling them huge Palestinians, human animals,

(01:16:02):
like it's it's institutionalized.
The whole society is like this. And settler societies are like
that. Yeah, because you have to.
It's the, it's the the moral andpsychological tools you need to
be able to deal with what you'redoing.
And you see it like that. The picture that we started with
that guy, he's just steeped fromthe moment he was born in the

(01:16:22):
idea that he was better than Palestinians because, and, and
he had a right to, to, to. Point under them for that too.
I blame the West. Yeah, of course.
Because they enabled Israel to this impunity, they made Israel,
and Israel is what they are. Now look the British.
Look at the settler colonies that we created, the United
States, Australia, New Zealand. What happened to the Aborigines

(01:16:43):
in Australia? Some shit.
People, did you? Kill guys?
Yeah. No.
But a lot of I mean, like we, we, we, we, we, we.
But we had this connect with Israel partly because we
historically did that. And all those settler colonies
that were established, they all were predicated on the
dehumanization. Look at the situation of
Aborigines now in Australia. It's like they took their kids

(01:17:05):
away from them in the 60s. There was a whole program to
steal their children like they Indigenous people.
When you are the victim of a colonial power, it's it's not,
it's never ends well, really well.
It can. It can end well in it's.
It's nothing. It's been.
For the British, it ended well. For well, yeah, but.
You're still enjoying the richesof the of what you have stolen

(01:17:27):
from all around the world. Until now, you never paid.
Well, no, but not I always thinkit's wrong to talk about the
British or to a certain elite class within Britain.
Like if you look at the AmericanEmpire now they smash up large
parts of the world and people get rich, but it's not if you
look at the poor in America, they're not doing very well.
So the the the benefits of empire and colonial endeavours

(01:17:48):
never go never like shared within the the host imperial
society is is concentrated themselves.
Yeah. And I think those are crimes.
Yeah, but yeah, yeah, but I do think like it's a maniacal
society as well. Like because like because of
what you say, you can't have decades and decades of lauding
it over and for people, dehumanization, racism, and

(01:18:10):
they're not. Talking about Lebanon that you
have revealed that the British spy planes were hovering over
Lebanon collecting debt and information for the Israeli
army. Tell me about.
It Yeah. So on April 8th, the massacre
date, yeah, there was a huge massacre in Lebanon where the

(01:18:32):
Israelis dropped or they hit 100targets in 10 minutes.
Over 300 people were killed. It was one of the bloodiest days
in Lebanon since the civil war ended in 1990.
And I was looking on flight tracking websites and saw that
there's British drone, which is called MQ 9 Reaper drone or
protected drone. It's unclear which one was

(01:18:54):
flying over Lebanon at the time in the morning.
It was a 13 hour trip. It turned its transponder off
after a while, so we don't know where it went, but what it
showed was it was circling over E Lebanon near Baalbek, which
was one of the places where a hundred 118 people got killed in
the vicinity. Now that is extremely suspicious

(01:19:16):
and strange because obviously itwasn't announced by the British
government and the the Reaper drone is weaponized as well, so
it can drop bombs itself. I don't think it was dropping
bombs, but it was probably carrying out surveillance.
This comes in the context of a near 2 year intelligence
gathering program that the British did for Israel over
Gaza. So I don't know if that is part

(01:19:38):
of the same arrangement because another element of this is there
was a agreement sign between theBritish and the Israeli military
in 2020 and we're never allowed to know what's in that
agreement. It's classified, which is
absurd. But it could possibly commit us
to what's so-called mutual self defence like the NATO Article 5

(01:19:59):
or and it could explain why we did those surveillance flights
over Gaza. It could explain why we're
flying surveillance flights overLebanon while Israel's bombing.
We don't know if that intelligence from those flights
over Lebanon were was given to the Israelis, but could be.
So it's all massive questions again.
No one in the mainstream media covers it.
It was followed up on by Middle East I and some other and Novara

(01:20:21):
media and other alternative media.
But not a single word has appeared in the British media
which you would think if our military assets, which we pay
for, by the way, paid for by theBritish taxpayer, are being used
in a country which is being attacked in this barbaric way by
Israel, with a history of givingthat intelligence to Israel, you
would think that the mainstream media might be a bit interested.
But no, no, no. Because that's complicity in war
crimes. Yeah.

(01:20:43):
Well, we don't know because we don't know where that
intelligence is going. But as I say, I don't think it's
conspiratorial to think it was going to Israel if they already
have been doing that for two years over Gaza, but.
No one. I don't think that the British
Army was giving the evidence that they're gathering to the
Lebanese government. Yeah, exactly.
But the point is like we would know if we had a journal like a

(01:21:04):
press corps that actually did their job.
All you'd need is 1 mainstream journalist to ask one of their
sources inside the Ministry of Defense or to ask Kir Starmer in
a press conference and we'd findout.
There was a Labour MP, Iqbal Mohammed, who asked Kir Starmer
in Parliament this week about those drones and Starmer refused

(01:21:25):
to say. But but like I said, we didn't
know in the original stories we were doing on intelligence
flights over Gaza. We didn't know where that
information was going. You can we we guessed it was
Israel, but we didn't know untila mainstream journalist used
their sources within the Ministry of Defence.
So this is what I'm saying. The fact that the British
mainstream media do not do theirjob and the journalists don't

(01:21:47):
reveal the truth about the British role in anything makes
them complicit. Because if they did their job,
they would make these things an issue.
It would make the public know about them.
It would make which would then form pressure on the government
to change. The fact that it can operate in
complete secret and and there's no coverage at all means that
the government gets away with itand that's why the system works

(01:22:07):
so well. Yeah, yeah.
But it's another example, isn't it, of something which is to do
with Israel. And so therefore everybody's
complicit in the cover up, Yes. Yeah, yes, true, different rules
apply. Yeah.
Unfortunately, as much as I enjoyed this discussion, our
time is up. OK.
Thank you very much, Matt. Thank you very, very much,

(01:22:29):
Doctor Ghad. It's always a pleasure to speak
to you. It's always a pleasure to have
you this. Was done.
Yeah. Thank you so much for both of
you. Until next time.
It's been, it's been my pleasurecertainly to be with you and I'm
very pleased that we've had thisdiscussion.

(01:22:49):
I I hope Matt feels the same. I do I thought it was really,
really good. I'm also very excited about the
new chat show first Palestinian live chat show in history yes so
and it's it's. At the middle of the Empire.
In the middle. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. So it's it's very promising.
And you, thank you very much, our audience.
See you. See you next week, inshallah.

(01:23:11):
Same time and same place. Wednesday, 7:00 PM.
Yeah, see you.