In this 59th episode of Charting Change in Legal, Caroline Hill, Editor and Publisher of Legal IT Insider, and I discussed Lexpo 2026, learning from AI use cases, and attending RelFest London and LegalTechTalk.
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(00:00):
[Music]
(00:10):
Welcome! Welcome to Charning Change!
In legal, I'm Ari Kaplan, I'm an analyst that covers the legal industry and as always
honored to be here with my co-host.
Caroline Hill, nice to be here, I'm afraid I'm losing my voice.
I'm the editor of Legalite Insider, it's great to be here.
(00:30):
We have had the busiest two weeks, I have seen loads of you in the UK, you have been Mr.
Travel extraordinary.
We saw each other in Amsterdam and I just want to say that if anybody forgets who I am
or what I look like, they can use this amazing gift that I received from the Lexpo conference
and this is actually very traditional pottery from Delft, which is a beautiful city in the
(00:55):
Netherlands where I was lucky to have dinner.
I look at that one, wow!
[Laughter]
So there you go, hey already, the co-hosts and we were at Lexpo and maybe that's a good
place to start because that was the beginning of our respective two week periods and what
a great event, an event that just, and actually if you can believe it, I managed to get these
(01:18):
almost completely unscathed home through my luggage.
Incredible gourmet chocolates, which I usually never get to taste in my home.
Oh look, some of those are already eating.
[Laughter]
Well done!
They are delicious, I'm telling you now, in fact, they're mostly gone, the other side's
gone, it's just like three or four in the middle.
(01:40):
Everything about that event is high class and high quality and just high level.
Lots of senior decision makers, lots of great conversation, really, really deep important
discussions about where we are and made by leaders who are driving change in their space.
It was a really great event, it was fun to see you, I was so glad to moderate the discussion
(02:03):
that featured your perspective.
Thank you, no, that was great, it was really good, it was really nice to speak to European
firms who I don't always get the opportunity to speak to.
So Europe is often underrepresented, I think, you know, in the press, I think that's
fair to say, to Bob Wett, I'll wear that accusation.
And there were some great, really innovative firms at the conference talking about their initiatives.
(02:29):
There was Sorenen, which I didn't know, their managing partner, I want to say.
Yeah, Akul, Akusa, right?
She's amazing, and they're ahead of innovation, they're doing some super cool stuff.
And then there was from, I did the from Lisbon, VDA, they were talking about how they have
embedded innovation throughout their whole fund, there's so much emphasis on embedding innovation
(02:52):
within the whole body and the kind of DNA of the of the firm, which I thought was super fascinating.
You know, you know,
Francesco Muno said Quattro Akusa, and there's a lot of great Amagurita, you mentioned at VDA,
there's just a number of leaders who are role-fruestad at, but, you know, like, there's a number
(03:16):
of leaders that come to Lexpo that really converge on this particular event to have these
unique discussions.
I just can't say enough good things, it's a great event and I encourage people to join.
Do you know, on a kind of substantive level from that conference, one of the things I also
found really interesting, so I sort of cut on that recurring theme that Magurita was talking
(03:38):
about at VDA, so KPMG, and you might remember, I'm really sorry I forgot his name, the speaker
from KPMG, but he was talking about how they, it was a simsome sort of thing, but how they
have embedded culture, how they've moved away from innovation teams and that kind of like
death by innovation from the top.
And they've got, they've created, and I've spoken about this since, including on a panel
(04:02):
legal tech talk, which we're going to come on to probably talk about, but they, they created
lawyer-led innovation with their team of ninjas, I've wrote about this afterwards, and they
have got power users with people who, who are resistant to change, and they've said about
how it's so effective, it's worked so well, rather than having just a quite limited number
of people from the top telling everyone what to do, they've, they've had this organically
(04:26):
growing body of people who have, like, affected everybody else, you know.
Yeah, Jose coaching.
That's it, coaching.
Yes, because you made a joke.
We can have a business, coaching, coaching.
I always think he shares.
Yeah, he won.
So he was fantastic.
The key notes were excellent.
You know, Kat Casey was, of course, there on day one, and everyone got a copy of her book.
(04:47):
And so it just, everything about the event was, was very well done.
Of course, there was a fantastic rise and run on Tuesday morning, mobbed.
There were at least seven of us, and it was just incredible.
We had a lot of fun.
I always loved that.
Nobody realizes, because the hotel is at an airport that, that nearby is a beautiful
(05:07):
lake, and there's a little town along that lake or river, and someone, someone corrected
me that it's a river.
And it was very nice.
And I just, happy to be there.
And then, of course, I went from there to Stockholm, which is such a beautiful city.
I was at the headquarters of LaGora, and then we, of course, converged on London, like,
a few other people, like, where we detected.
(05:29):
So we went in real fast, which is very fun.
And I had a really interesting conversation at real fast with Phil Saunders, the chief executive.
They've just bought Gavall, which they announced just before the conference.
So they've brought the ability to edit in word and bring the whole word, sort of, drafting
within the platform, which we talked a little bit about.
(05:49):
I have not had time.
Real fast was on Monday.
I've not had time to write anything, because it's been so busy that I'm going to get
around to it.
But I spoke to them.
You know, there was a really good vibe about it.
It's obviously a lot of energy around the conference. Phil's a great, really interesting guy.
And I spoke with Georgia Foster there, a mere head.
(06:12):
And they, you know, they're there.
There was a brilliant conference.
I think there was like 900 people there.
It was quite big.
And, yeah, really nice, really nice energy, and they're doing lots of stuff.
I think the Gavall, I also spoke to Donna Moini from Gavall.
And I think, I'm neat some more time to think about it and absorb it, to be honest with
you.
And I think it's really interesting what they're trying to do, where we'll position them in
(06:34):
the market.
Yeah.
I asked both Phil and Chris Brown about the acquisition.
I also spoke to David Hargan, and Kristen Trailer, and Georgia.
And so I'm going to mesh that up somehow.
I edited it actually on the plane home.
And I'm looking forward to probably have that out Monday.
So maybe look at Ari.
(06:56):
Well, I promise not to, but I can only, you know, I'm trying.
You know, that's the challenge is as people who are listening or are as our listener
knows, and as certainly as you know, you know, if you do a few things at once, I did a breakfast
in Amsterdam.
I did Lexpo.
We were both at Lexpo on the eighth and ninth of June.
And then I did a breakfast in Amsterdam on the tenth and then a breakfast in Stockholm
(07:18):
on the twelfth and then a breakfast in London and a lunch in London on the Monday, which
was the fifteenth.
And so then a dinner on Tuesday the sixteenth.
And so each time I tried to have something out pictures or discussion because the interesting
thing about these conversations today is that while the conversation in Amsterdam is unique
(07:39):
to the conversation in Stockholm, which is unique to the conversation in London or New York,
et cetera, we are really all in the same industry and struggling with many of the same issues.
The profession isn't so different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Rules, different regulations, different cultures, different personalities, I get all that
different models.
(08:00):
But the idea of serving clients, the idea of professionalism, the idea of judgment and decision-making,
and what this new technology, whether it's AI or automation or other tools that people
are starting to realize they can use more effectively is a recurring theme.
And it's shared across jurisdictions, across time zones, across cultures.
Yeah.
(08:20):
Do you think, obviously, the regulation is definite?
And in Europe, you've got, you know, they've battled with a greater regulation.
You know, I think, obviously, in the US, you've gone very sort of as much anti-regulation as
possible.
I know that's a bit of a moving thing.
And in the UK, I don't really know where we're in the UK.
(08:42):
Who knows?
There's some sort of midway.
So you've got European, you know, they've obviously got a lot of rules around data where they
store data and they've got GDPR, they've got the EUA, which came up a lot in the last couple
of days.
And then, you know, it's, so yeah, I think that's the interesting thing, isn't it?
You know, they have to have that to contend with in a big way than we do.
(09:03):
Well, and also it is keynote.
Phil Sander has talked about governance as a really key point.
And Chris Brown talked about the same thing in terms of developing products that adhere
to that with guidelines and, you know, sort of safe keeping and safe usage of data
and so you're absolutely right.
And when I asked several of the leaders at relativity in my discussions, what makes
(09:26):
Ralfa slund indifferent from Ralfa Sydney and Relativity Fest in Chicago, they talked
about that idea that in this particular jurisdiction, there is a heightened regulatory
environment that scrutiny is much higher.
And so they want to make sure that they're responding to that.
And so those, there was also this sense and they characterized it this way just in terms
(09:51):
of a uniform approach throughout the relativity ecosystem across the world where people are
just committed to their theme of discovering the truth and acting on it.
And I think that really resonates no matter what event you go to, though, of course I've
only been to Ralfa London and Relativity Fest in Chicago.
I've never been to Sydney.
But I'm assuming that there's a similar recurring theme there.
(10:14):
I felt like we need to go to that one.
I look forward to it.
So if our listener can kind of convey that to the people at Relativity, that would be
amazing.
I'm sure they're happy that we're chatting.
Yeah.
I feel like we haven't travelled enough or spoken enough because you can tell that I haven't
spoken enough over the last couple of days because I sound amazing.
(10:35):
Like, I haven't been talking for 48 hours.
I have to say we obviously then were legal tech talk which has grown again.
It's like 5,500 people.
I was lucky enough to see that.
I know.
I was coming to the US.
I mean, it's coming to the US to Miami, which I'm definitely.
Miami in December.
It's a great time to go to Miami, actually.
I mean, it's actually a really interesting time because I used to go to a conference every
(10:57):
year in December and it was great.
It was actually a great time for a conference.
And I'm sensing that that will be a good time also.
There won't be this December.
It's December 27th, the first one.
No, but it's a might late in December.
That's the only thing I'd say is that so I think it's the 17th of December, which is, I
(11:17):
might be wrong, but it's something around.
It's late.
It's quite late in December, which I think is, you know, I mean, I'm sure Bradley and his
co-founder will make it a success.
I'm not suggesting otherwise, but for me as a parent is quite late in the year, you
know, with Christmas and everything.
But Miami.
Yeah, the one I used to go to was the first week of December, which was very good.
And in the US here, that's right after Thanksgiving, typically.
(11:41):
And it's, and with legal week, not being January anymore, or legal week has historically been
in January, being in February, with that being in March, it's like a good, good to have
an event there.
And I think, I think the legal tech fund used to have their event in December, in Miami,
(12:01):
and they've moved it to Austin and some other locations.
And so I think that that people recognized that that's actually a good time for, to have
like a year end meeting, et cetera.
I've done dinners in December and they've been well attended and people have been really
eager to try to summarize the year, capture what are the themes and how should we then move
forward for the new year?
(12:22):
So, yeah.
And especially maybe your work, it starts to drop off a little bit at the end of the year
and theory, I say this.
Well, that's the problem.
Well, for lawyers, it doesn't because you have to get your buildings in and collections before
the end of the year.
It actually is a really high pressure period.
And in fact, I remember, you know, I practiced for nearly nine years and I remember some of
(12:44):
those years, I'd want to make sure I hit my hours and I got a bonus and I think that's
a real concern for a lot of professionals who build their time that you want to make
sure that you close out the year strong.
So, that's a balancing act.
Did you see, so a legal tech took, so it's interesting as to who was there.
(13:04):
So, you mentioned lawyers.
Obviously, a lot of conferences, legal tech conferences, not really the lawyers, although
I know that's changing and there's much more involvement, but the senior level is particularly
but, and I know there was involvement from some of the managing partners and it was interesting,
but still, most of the people that I spoke to were in the innovation side, they may have
(13:26):
been lawyers, quite a few, I hosted a panel, I was lucky to host a stage, I yesterday, it
was a garden stage at legal tech talk and then at the end of the year, 330, I hosted a panel
which, they gave me some amazing people, I think to try and encourage people to stay and
luckily, we were lucky enough to get quite a few people coming even though that was the very
last thing of the day.
(13:47):
And one of my two, two of my panel had been lawyers and then turned to innovation and
tech, which was quite normal, but yeah, I didn't think that many lawyers, but I expect there
were probably lots because it attracts a really interesting crowd of sort of quite a mixed
crowd as well.
Yeah, I don't, I saw a lot of people that I knew and it was really well attended.
(14:16):
It was huge.
Yeah, I mean, only good things, I was happy to, happy to, happy to, happy to, I'm happy
to see it and you know, I'm looking forward to the US event and I love going to London and
you know, for several, for several different things, it just, it was a, it worked out to be
(14:37):
a great trip.
I, there's so much energy in this space, can we just talk about that for a second?
Like, there is so much excitement and enthusiasm.
Unlike anything I feel like I've ever seen, once, once you're out there, I, I, I just, I
get the sense that people all realize that we're on a very accelerated time frame and,
(15:04):
in mission and it's an important moment in, in our space.
I hear that.
It's interesting.
So I heard almost age, I had Nick West from Michigan, Dreyer, who most people were
no and he was talking about the bill of the hour, you know, which you, you ever might smile
a little bit about that.
It didn't come up.
(15:24):
It came up once or twice on my stage.
And Nick, very respected voice, who, you know, you would, you would definitely not put him
in the over excited camp, right?
There's not a lot I haven't seen and he's, he's not one of these people, but he said the
same.
And he was like, this is, for anybody questioning still whether this is a real significant
(15:46):
moment of change.
Nick said, this is the moment that people have been hoping for in terms of real transformation
happening and going to happen and accelerating and going to accelerate further in the space.
And it's, I don't think anyone really doubts it, but it's, it's interesting to hear someone
like Nick say it.
Well, he's the chief strategy officer and a partner at the firm.
(16:08):
So when he says it, it has real meaning.
And also he's having the conversations with practitioners who on the ground trying to
figure out how to incorporate this into their daily work and they're lucky.
They have him, not every firm has someone like him, but we know a lot of those people
that those firms like him in different jurisdictions and they're lucky, but a lot of people are just
(16:32):
trying to figure it out.
And it's challenging because you and I have tried to provide content and guidance in ways
that is, you know, that's meaningful for these teams, but everyone's having the conversation.
Whether they're thriving or succeeding or progressing, they're definitely having this conversation.
And events like relativity fast or Lexpo and others are really helping them get from having
(16:57):
the conversation to real takeaways, things that they can manage.
It was interesting because my London breakfast, someone mentioned that, I think, I'm not
at one of the challenges because a lot of the discussion ends up being, what do we do with
the juniors?
What happens with people who are coming into the profession and someone at my breakfast
(17:17):
said one of the one of the issues is that we're training 21st century students to be 20th
century lawyers.
And it was like really fascinating.
Just sort of there's still a disconnect and that's the one thing that I don't think we've
achieved is some equilibrium between the law schools and the firms and the firms and their
(17:39):
clients.
So some clients are ahead, some firms are ahead, some schools are a little bit ahead, some
are mostly trying to adhere to a traditional model that is rightfully what their mission has
been.
And to change that is a challenge.
And so there's lots of discussion about how do we prepare these individuals and how
(18:01):
do the firms respond and how does the work adapt?
Just amazing, amazing period and amazing discussions and lots of people driving that change.
It's really admire a lot of what I'm seeing.
I spoke about this recently about simulation.
So one of the examples of simulated learning is depotism, which is happening in the states
(18:26):
and then littler has worked with them to adapt that the employment work.
And then interestingly, I was having a conversation about this with somebody from general block
and they are doing similar thing.
They are the aspect to a code who has built something similar, similar internally and
(18:50):
training, how to use it to train people.
I felt like there's a lot of stuff.
There's also not a lot of stuff in some areas and there's a lot of conversations and soul
searching and as they're rightfully should be because there is a gap emerging in terms
of how would you need to learn?
I think it's an absolute priority.
I've probably said on here before as well.
But it's also some really cool things happening in that space with people starting to work
(19:15):
out.
They can build their own tools to simulate learning in some cases that could be better
than the original, the model of having a time-staffed partner trying to provide learning.
I think it's a big challenge, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to undermine it.
But I'm just super interesting, some of the conversations I'm having are really interesting.
(19:37):
Well, it's also a perfect opportunity for firms and their clients to collaborate.
So I was lucky to facilitate a discussion with Luci Allen, the co-CEO of Barbary on Monday.
And we were honored really to host a group of law firm leaders and corporate legal department
(19:58):
leaders having a conversation about the future of training and development and the insights
that were shared collaboratively because there's no adversarial issue within that sphere.
The clients want the best practitioners and the law firms want to provide the best quality
service and that means that all levels, not just that partners who've been practicing for
(20:21):
20 or 30 years.
And there were a lot of ideas shared just in terms of what the client is looking for, what
the firms are trying to provide, and how we bridge from school to practice and what's most
effective.
Just wonderful, wonderful, rich conversation with a group of people who aren't necessarily
(20:42):
always at these events that we're talking about.
And it was also quite fortunate to be in that room.
But I feel like the one constant here is try to be in the room, try to be a listener and
a learner when people are talking about their successes, their failures, their concerns,
(21:04):
and use that to compile notes that you can share to help everyone move forward.
Yeah. And Lucy and Barbara announced at Legal Tech Talk that they've acquired Christian
announced from LEGO that they've acquired LEGO.
So Barbara has acquired LEGO, which is going to be come out shortly more publicly, but
(21:28):
it's already public.
But and that's really exciting.
So obviously we've talked a little bit about LEGO Christian Lang's platform, which helps
people use different models and build templates and all of that kind of stuff.
And within the context of Barbara, you know, a bigger training and educational company,
(21:49):
I think that would be really exciting to see how they how they develop that.
The potential is amazing.
Yeah.
You have really smart brands, great people, combining that can only benefit the community.
I'm lucky to be involved with Barbara and I think so highly of their team, super talented
in lots of different jurisdictions and a market leader.
(22:12):
And now you have Christian's talent in his team.
I think it's going to be great for our industry.
It's going to be great.
Well, you and I, do know what we probably at some point need to do our day job.
I mean, I don't know about you, but I've sort of got a balance.
Yeah, I don't even know what that is anymore.
When people say, what do you do?
I just say, I do looky work.
Because this is my job.
Yes, I agree.
(22:33):
And it has been a privilege as always to speak with you.
Again, I'm Ari Kaplan and I feel lucky to co-host this with you.
It's been wonderful to be sort of traveling around the world to do this with you and to
see you.
And I'm thankful to the folks at Lexbo for giving me the chance.
It's wonderful to see you at all the other events and Carolyn Hill.
(22:55):
I hope you have a great weekend.
Ari, I'm going to miss you.
I'm going to miss you.
I'm going to come over and visit you.
I said no one ever.
So thank you.
Thanks everyone.
Bye.
Bye.
[MUSIC]
[Music]
(00:10):
Welcome! Welcome to Charning Change!
In legal, I'm Ari Kaplan, I'm an analyst that covers the legal industry and as always
honored to be here with my co-host.
Caroline Hill, nice to be here, I'm afraid I'm losing my voice.
I'm the editor of Legalite Insider, it's great to be here.
(00:30):
We have had the busiest two weeks, I have seen loads of you in the UK, you have been Mr.
Travel extraordinary.
We saw each other in Amsterdam and I just want to say that if anybody forgets who I am
or what I look like, they can use this amazing gift that I received from the Lexpo conference
and this is actually very traditional pottery from Delft, which is a beautiful city in the
(00:55):
Netherlands where I was lucky to have dinner.
I look at that one, wow!
[Laughter]
So there you go, hey already, the co-hosts and we were at Lexpo and maybe that's a good
place to start because that was the beginning of our respective two week periods and what
a great event, an event that just, and actually if you can believe it, I managed to get these
(01:18):
almost completely unscathed home through my luggage.
Incredible gourmet chocolates, which I usually never get to taste in my home.
Oh look, some of those are already eating.
[Laughter]
Well done!
They are delicious, I'm telling you now, in fact, they're mostly gone, the other side's
gone, it's just like three or four in the middle.
(01:40):
Everything about that event is high class and high quality and just high level.
Lots of senior decision makers, lots of great conversation, really, really deep important
discussions about where we are and made by leaders who are driving change in their space.
It was a really great event, it was fun to see you, I was so glad to moderate the discussion
(02:03):
that featured your perspective.
Thank you, no, that was great, it was really good, it was really nice to speak to European
firms who I don't always get the opportunity to speak to.
So Europe is often underrepresented, I think, you know, in the press, I think that's
fair to say, to Bob Wett, I'll wear that accusation.
And there were some great, really innovative firms at the conference talking about their initiatives.
(02:29):
There was Sorenen, which I didn't know, their managing partner, I want to say.
Yeah, Akul, Akusa, right?
She's amazing, and they're ahead of innovation, they're doing some super cool stuff.
And then there was from, I did the from Lisbon, VDA, they were talking about how they have
embedded innovation throughout their whole fund, there's so much emphasis on embedding innovation
(02:52):
within the whole body and the kind of DNA of the of the firm, which I thought was super fascinating.
You know, you know,
Francesco Muno said Quattro Akusa, and there's a lot of great Amagurita, you mentioned at VDA,
there's just a number of leaders who are role-fruestad at, but, you know, like, there's a number
(03:16):
of leaders that come to Lexpo that really converge on this particular event to have these
unique discussions.
I just can't say enough good things, it's a great event and I encourage people to join.
Do you know, on a kind of substantive level from that conference, one of the things I also
found really interesting, so I sort of cut on that recurring theme that Magurita was talking
(03:38):
about at VDA, so KPMG, and you might remember, I'm really sorry I forgot his name, the speaker
from KPMG, but he was talking about how they, it was a simsome sort of thing, but how they
have embedded culture, how they've moved away from innovation teams and that kind of like
death by innovation from the top.
And they've got, they've created, and I've spoken about this since, including on a panel
(04:02):
legal tech talk, which we're going to come on to probably talk about, but they, they created
lawyer-led innovation with their team of ninjas, I've wrote about this afterwards, and they
have got power users with people who, who are resistant to change, and they've said about
how it's so effective, it's worked so well, rather than having just a quite limited number
of people from the top telling everyone what to do, they've, they've had this organically
(04:26):
growing body of people who have, like, affected everybody else, you know.
Yeah, Jose coaching.
That's it, coaching.
Yes, because you made a joke.
We can have a business, coaching, coaching.
I always think he shares.
Yeah, he won.
So he was fantastic.
The key notes were excellent.
You know, Kat Casey was, of course, there on day one, and everyone got a copy of her book.
(04:47):
And so it just, everything about the event was, was very well done.
Of course, there was a fantastic rise and run on Tuesday morning, mobbed.
There were at least seven of us, and it was just incredible.
We had a lot of fun.
I always loved that.
Nobody realizes, because the hotel is at an airport that, that nearby is a beautiful
(05:07):
lake, and there's a little town along that lake or river, and someone, someone corrected
me that it's a river.
And it was very nice.
And I just, happy to be there.
And then, of course, I went from there to Stockholm, which is such a beautiful city.
I was at the headquarters of LaGora, and then we, of course, converged on London, like,
a few other people, like, where we detected.
(05:29):
So we went in real fast, which is very fun.
And I had a really interesting conversation at real fast with Phil Saunders, the chief executive.
They've just bought Gavall, which they announced just before the conference.
So they've brought the ability to edit in word and bring the whole word, sort of, drafting
within the platform, which we talked a little bit about.
(05:49):
I have not had time.
Real fast was on Monday.
I've not had time to write anything, because it's been so busy that I'm going to get
around to it.
But I spoke to them.
You know, there was a really good vibe about it.
It's obviously a lot of energy around the conference. Phil's a great, really interesting guy.
And I spoke with Georgia Foster there, a mere head.
(06:12):
And they, you know, they're there.
There was a brilliant conference.
I think there was like 900 people there.
It was quite big.
And, yeah, really nice, really nice energy, and they're doing lots of stuff.
I think the Gavall, I also spoke to Donna Moini from Gavall.
And I think, I'm neat some more time to think about it and absorb it, to be honest with
you.
And I think it's really interesting what they're trying to do, where we'll position them in
(06:34):
the market.
Yeah.
I asked both Phil and Chris Brown about the acquisition.
I also spoke to David Hargan, and Kristen Trailer, and Georgia.
And so I'm going to mesh that up somehow.
I edited it actually on the plane home.
And I'm looking forward to probably have that out Monday.
So maybe look at Ari.
(06:56):
Well, I promise not to, but I can only, you know, I'm trying.
You know, that's the challenge is as people who are listening or are as our listener
knows, and as certainly as you know, you know, if you do a few things at once, I did a breakfast
in Amsterdam.
I did Lexpo.
We were both at Lexpo on the eighth and ninth of June.
And then I did a breakfast in Amsterdam on the tenth and then a breakfast in Stockholm
(07:18):
on the twelfth and then a breakfast in London and a lunch in London on the Monday, which
was the fifteenth.
And so then a dinner on Tuesday the sixteenth.
And so each time I tried to have something out pictures or discussion because the interesting
thing about these conversations today is that while the conversation in Amsterdam is unique
(07:39):
to the conversation in Stockholm, which is unique to the conversation in London or New York,
et cetera, we are really all in the same industry and struggling with many of the same issues.
The profession isn't so different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Rules, different regulations, different cultures, different personalities, I get all that
different models.
(08:00):
But the idea of serving clients, the idea of professionalism, the idea of judgment and decision-making,
and what this new technology, whether it's AI or automation or other tools that people
are starting to realize they can use more effectively is a recurring theme.
And it's shared across jurisdictions, across time zones, across cultures.
Yeah.
(08:20):
Do you think, obviously, the regulation is definite?
And in Europe, you've got, you know, they've battled with a greater regulation.
You know, I think, obviously, in the US, you've gone very sort of as much anti-regulation as
possible.
I know that's a bit of a moving thing.
And in the UK, I don't really know where we're in the UK.
(08:42):
Who knows?
There's some sort of midway.
So you've got European, you know, they've obviously got a lot of rules around data where they
store data and they've got GDPR, they've got the EUA, which came up a lot in the last couple
of days.
And then, you know, it's, so yeah, I think that's the interesting thing, isn't it?
You know, they have to have that to contend with in a big way than we do.
(09:03):
Well, and also it is keynote.
Phil Sander has talked about governance as a really key point.
And Chris Brown talked about the same thing in terms of developing products that adhere
to that with guidelines and, you know, sort of safe keeping and safe usage of data
and so you're absolutely right.
And when I asked several of the leaders at relativity in my discussions, what makes
(09:26):
Ralfa slund indifferent from Ralfa Sydney and Relativity Fest in Chicago, they talked
about that idea that in this particular jurisdiction, there is a heightened regulatory
environment that scrutiny is much higher.
And so they want to make sure that they're responding to that.
And so those, there was also this sense and they characterized it this way just in terms
(09:51):
of a uniform approach throughout the relativity ecosystem across the world where people are
just committed to their theme of discovering the truth and acting on it.
And I think that really resonates no matter what event you go to, though, of course I've
only been to Ralfa London and Relativity Fest in Chicago.
I've never been to Sydney.
But I'm assuming that there's a similar recurring theme there.
(10:14):
I felt like we need to go to that one.
I look forward to it.
So if our listener can kind of convey that to the people at Relativity, that would be
amazing.
I'm sure they're happy that we're chatting.
Yeah.
I feel like we haven't travelled enough or spoken enough because you can tell that I haven't
spoken enough over the last couple of days because I sound amazing.
(10:35):
Like, I haven't been talking for 48 hours.
I have to say we obviously then were legal tech talk which has grown again.
It's like 5,500 people.
I was lucky enough to see that.
I know.
I was coming to the US.
I mean, it's coming to the US to Miami, which I'm definitely.
Miami in December.
It's a great time to go to Miami, actually.
I mean, it's actually a really interesting time because I used to go to a conference every
(10:57):
year in December and it was great.
It was actually a great time for a conference.
And I'm sensing that that will be a good time also.
There won't be this December.
It's December 27th, the first one.
No, but it's a might late in December.
That's the only thing I'd say is that so I think it's the 17th of December, which is, I
(11:17):
might be wrong, but it's something around.
It's late.
It's quite late in December, which I think is, you know, I mean, I'm sure Bradley and his
co-founder will make it a success.
I'm not suggesting otherwise, but for me as a parent is quite late in the year, you
know, with Christmas and everything.
But Miami.
Yeah, the one I used to go to was the first week of December, which was very good.
And in the US here, that's right after Thanksgiving, typically.
(11:41):
And it's, and with legal week, not being January anymore, or legal week has historically been
in January, being in February, with that being in March, it's like a good, good to have
an event there.
And I think, I think the legal tech fund used to have their event in December, in Miami,
(12:01):
and they've moved it to Austin and some other locations.
And so I think that that people recognized that that's actually a good time for, to have
like a year end meeting, et cetera.
I've done dinners in December and they've been well attended and people have been really
eager to try to summarize the year, capture what are the themes and how should we then move
forward for the new year?
(12:22):
So, yeah.
And especially maybe your work, it starts to drop off a little bit at the end of the year
and theory, I say this.
Well, that's the problem.
Well, for lawyers, it doesn't because you have to get your buildings in and collections before
the end of the year.
It actually is a really high pressure period.
And in fact, I remember, you know, I practiced for nearly nine years and I remember some of
(12:44):
those years, I'd want to make sure I hit my hours and I got a bonus and I think that's
a real concern for a lot of professionals who build their time that you want to make
sure that you close out the year strong.
So, that's a balancing act.
Did you see, so a legal tech took, so it's interesting as to who was there.
(13:04):
So, you mentioned lawyers.
Obviously, a lot of conferences, legal tech conferences, not really the lawyers, although
I know that's changing and there's much more involvement, but the senior level is particularly
but, and I know there was involvement from some of the managing partners and it was interesting,
but still, most of the people that I spoke to were in the innovation side, they may have
(13:26):
been lawyers, quite a few, I hosted a panel, I was lucky to host a stage, I yesterday, it
was a garden stage at legal tech talk and then at the end of the year, 330, I hosted a panel
which, they gave me some amazing people, I think to try and encourage people to stay and
luckily, we were lucky enough to get quite a few people coming even though that was the very
last thing of the day.
(13:47):
And one of my two, two of my panel had been lawyers and then turned to innovation and
tech, which was quite normal, but yeah, I didn't think that many lawyers, but I expect there
were probably lots because it attracts a really interesting crowd of sort of quite a mixed
crowd as well.
Yeah, I don't, I saw a lot of people that I knew and it was really well attended.
(14:16):
It was huge.
Yeah, I mean, only good things, I was happy to, happy to, happy to, happy to, I'm happy
to see it and you know, I'm looking forward to the US event and I love going to London and
you know, for several, for several different things, it just, it was a, it worked out to be
(14:37):
a great trip.
I, there's so much energy in this space, can we just talk about that for a second?
Like, there is so much excitement and enthusiasm.
Unlike anything I feel like I've ever seen, once, once you're out there, I, I, I just, I
get the sense that people all realize that we're on a very accelerated time frame and,
(15:04):
in mission and it's an important moment in, in our space.
I hear that.
It's interesting.
So I heard almost age, I had Nick West from Michigan, Dreyer, who most people were
no and he was talking about the bill of the hour, you know, which you, you ever might smile
a little bit about that.
It didn't come up.
(15:24):
It came up once or twice on my stage.
And Nick, very respected voice, who, you know, you would, you would definitely not put him
in the over excited camp, right?
There's not a lot I haven't seen and he's, he's not one of these people, but he said the
same.
And he was like, this is, for anybody questioning still whether this is a real significant
(15:46):
moment of change.
Nick said, this is the moment that people have been hoping for in terms of real transformation
happening and going to happen and accelerating and going to accelerate further in the space.
And it's, I don't think anyone really doubts it, but it's, it's interesting to hear someone
like Nick say it.
Well, he's the chief strategy officer and a partner at the firm.
(16:08):
So when he says it, it has real meaning.
And also he's having the conversations with practitioners who on the ground trying to
figure out how to incorporate this into their daily work and they're lucky.
They have him, not every firm has someone like him, but we know a lot of those people
that those firms like him in different jurisdictions and they're lucky, but a lot of people are just
(16:32):
trying to figure it out.
And it's challenging because you and I have tried to provide content and guidance in ways
that is, you know, that's meaningful for these teams, but everyone's having the conversation.
Whether they're thriving or succeeding or progressing, they're definitely having this conversation.
And events like relativity fast or Lexpo and others are really helping them get from having
(16:57):
the conversation to real takeaways, things that they can manage.
It was interesting because my London breakfast, someone mentioned that, I think, I'm not
at one of the challenges because a lot of the discussion ends up being, what do we do with
the juniors?
What happens with people who are coming into the profession and someone at my breakfast
(17:17):
said one of the one of the issues is that we're training 21st century students to be 20th
century lawyers.
And it was like really fascinating.
Just sort of there's still a disconnect and that's the one thing that I don't think we've
achieved is some equilibrium between the law schools and the firms and the firms and their
(17:39):
clients.
So some clients are ahead, some firms are ahead, some schools are a little bit ahead, some
are mostly trying to adhere to a traditional model that is rightfully what their mission has
been.
And to change that is a challenge.
And so there's lots of discussion about how do we prepare these individuals and how
(18:01):
do the firms respond and how does the work adapt?
Just amazing, amazing period and amazing discussions and lots of people driving that change.
It's really admire a lot of what I'm seeing.
I spoke about this recently about simulation.
So one of the examples of simulated learning is depotism, which is happening in the states
(18:26):
and then littler has worked with them to adapt that the employment work.
And then interestingly, I was having a conversation about this with somebody from general block
and they are doing similar thing.
They are the aspect to a code who has built something similar, similar internally and
(18:50):
training, how to use it to train people.
I felt like there's a lot of stuff.
There's also not a lot of stuff in some areas and there's a lot of conversations and soul
searching and as they're rightfully should be because there is a gap emerging in terms
of how would you need to learn?
I think it's an absolute priority.
I've probably said on here before as well.
But it's also some really cool things happening in that space with people starting to work
(19:15):
out.
They can build their own tools to simulate learning in some cases that could be better
than the original, the model of having a time-staffed partner trying to provide learning.
I think it's a big challenge, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to undermine it.
But I'm just super interesting, some of the conversations I'm having are really interesting.
(19:37):
Well, it's also a perfect opportunity for firms and their clients to collaborate.
So I was lucky to facilitate a discussion with Luci Allen, the co-CEO of Barbary on Monday.
And we were honored really to host a group of law firm leaders and corporate legal department
(19:58):
leaders having a conversation about the future of training and development and the insights
that were shared collaboratively because there's no adversarial issue within that sphere.
The clients want the best practitioners and the law firms want to provide the best quality
service and that means that all levels, not just that partners who've been practicing for
(20:21):
20 or 30 years.
And there were a lot of ideas shared just in terms of what the client is looking for, what
the firms are trying to provide, and how we bridge from school to practice and what's most
effective.
Just wonderful, wonderful, rich conversation with a group of people who aren't necessarily
(20:42):
always at these events that we're talking about.
And it was also quite fortunate to be in that room.
But I feel like the one constant here is try to be in the room, try to be a listener and
a learner when people are talking about their successes, their failures, their concerns,
(21:04):
and use that to compile notes that you can share to help everyone move forward.
Yeah. And Lucy and Barbara announced at Legal Tech Talk that they've acquired Christian
announced from LEGO that they've acquired LEGO.
So Barbara has acquired LEGO, which is going to be come out shortly more publicly, but
(21:28):
it's already public.
But and that's really exciting.
So obviously we've talked a little bit about LEGO Christian Lang's platform, which helps
people use different models and build templates and all of that kind of stuff.
And within the context of Barbara, you know, a bigger training and educational company,
(21:49):
I think that would be really exciting to see how they how they develop that.
The potential is amazing.
Yeah.
You have really smart brands, great people, combining that can only benefit the community.
I'm lucky to be involved with Barbara and I think so highly of their team, super talented
in lots of different jurisdictions and a market leader.
(22:12):
And now you have Christian's talent in his team.
I think it's going to be great for our industry.
It's going to be great.
Well, you and I, do know what we probably at some point need to do our day job.
I mean, I don't know about you, but I've sort of got a balance.
Yeah, I don't even know what that is anymore.
When people say, what do you do?
I just say, I do looky work.
Because this is my job.
Yes, I agree.
(22:33):
And it has been a privilege as always to speak with you.
Again, I'm Ari Kaplan and I feel lucky to co-host this with you.
It's been wonderful to be sort of traveling around the world to do this with you and to
see you.
And I'm thankful to the folks at Lexbo for giving me the chance.
It's wonderful to see you at all the other events and Carolyn Hill.
(22:55):
I hope you have a great weekend.
Ari, I'm going to miss you.
I'm going to miss you.
I'm going to come over and visit you.
I said no one ever.
So thank you.
Thanks everyone.
Bye.
Bye.
[MUSIC]
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