November 19, 2025 • 62 mins
A Creative Life Built Plate by Plate
Have you ever wondered what your life could feel like if you followed the pull of your creativity with your whole heart? This episode explores that question through a story filled with courage, curiosity, and the power of community.
A Question to Ground the SoulWhat if finding your voice is less about perfection and more about trusting the places that feel like home to you?
Meet Kaitlyn HaleOur guest, food stylist Kaitlyn Hale, has built a career shaped by art, flavor, intuition, and deep connection. With a background in marketing, a love for studio art, and years of hands-on experience assisting, styling, cooking, and learning, Kaitlyn brings a perspective that is grounded, generous, and richly creative.
What You’ll Hear in This EpisodeIn this conversation, Kaitlyn opens up about finding her creative voice, leaving traditional expectations behind, and building a career that feels aligned with her strengths. She shares how community fuels her growth, how storytelling guides every plate she styles, and how confidence grows when you follow your instincts. You’ll learn how creative friendships, cookbook club gatherings, test shoots, and small leaps of bravery can shape a fulfilling career. This episode is a reminder that the path forward expands when you trust what lights you up.
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💬 Join the ConversationSavory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/
Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast
Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook
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📣 Follow Kaitlyn Hale
Website:kaitlynmhale
Instagram: @kaitlynmhale_
LinkedIn: @kaitlynmhale
Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the 67th episode of theSavory Shot, a podcast about the
(00:07):
art and soul of food photography.
I'm your host with the most Mica McCook.
I'm a food photographer based herein Austin, Texas, where the weather
has finally, finally cooled down.
Before we dive into today's feastof an episode, I wanna give a
(00:29):
shout out to y'all, the listeners.
Thank you for coming back.
Episode after episode, y'allcome back and y'all show this
little podcast so much love.
So thank you.
And if this is your first time tuningin, welcome to the Hot Mess Express.
(00:54):
Thanks for giving the show a listen.
I hope you enjoy it and comeback again and give me feedback.
Email me, I'm always open to suggestions.
Now let's talk about today's guest.
I'm joined by the phenomenal Kaitlyn Hale.
(01:14):
She's a Cleveland based food stylistwho treats every plate like a
mini art project and every shootlike a stage for storytelling.
In today's episode, we're digginginto what it means to find your
voice as a creative and how Kaitlyntraded contracts in corporate
(01:36):
life for a career in food styling.
Y'all, I felt like Kaitlyn andI were and are kindred spirits.
We talked about how Kaitlyn went froma burnt out marketing grad with a
barely used food blog to building acareer that lights her up creatively.
(02:00):
We talk about the quiet friction offinding your voice when you are still
learning what that voice even is.
And Kaitlyn talked about how learningto trust her gut even when the room
says otherwise, became her superpower.
This was one of those conversationsthat just makes you nod your head
(02:25):
and go, yes, yes, yes to all of that.
Yes.
So whether you are a seasoned proor still figuring out which end of
the camera to point at your plate.
This episode has got something for you.
But before we get into all of that, grabyour coffee, your notebook, and hey,
(02:52):
grab a snack and let's start the show.
Welcome to the Savory Shot, abiweekly show about the art and
soul of working in food photography.
I'm your host, Mica McCook.
Every other Wednesday I sit down tochat with professionals in the industry
so that you feast on only the besttips and strategies in the business.
(03:16):
Alright, y'all let's get started.
Katie, I wanna start this interview bythanking you for coming on the Savory
Shot, for spending your day off withme, and I'm just excited to have you
(03:40):
here and to have you on as a guest.
So thank you.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, happy to be here.
Okay, so I wanna start by asking you,what's one thing you've come to deeply
value since becoming a freelancer?
Oh gosh.
(04:01):
So I think one thing is just likethe ability to find your voice as
a freelancer and as a creative.
At first, I was just tryingto get any job as anyone does.
When you start in freelancing,you're like, I'll do anything.
I'll take any amount of money.
I just want to get my foot in the door.
But as I've built my career over the lastlike 10 plus years, I think developing
(04:27):
my voice and finding my voice as astylist and figuring out my strengths
and what I really enjoy doing has beenso beneficial to me in my career, and
has allowed me to find people that Ireally wanna work with who have similar
values and approaches to their work.
That's been really fun as partof this journey, I didn't think
(04:51):
necessarily that was somethingthat would come in this career.
Hmm.
Yes.
You get to build relationshipsand go, you know what?
I really like you and I wannawork on projects with you, and
it just makes it even that muchmore fulfilling and beautiful.
It just, your days are long,but they're not long days.
(05:14):
Yeah, like our days arestill be really fun.
I have to look at what I do.
Like I'm a food stylist.
It's a pinch me like job and it's alsolike I'm playing with food all day.
Truly.
I take it very seriously, butwhat I do is not that serious.
And then getting to do itsurrounded by people you really
enjoy is just like all the better.
(05:37):
We get to have a lot of fun and make funsnacks in the kitchen and getting to do
all of those little side things makes thejob that much better when it's surrounded
by people you really enjoy being around.
Absolutely.
Let me ask this, your backgroundinto getting into food styling, was
(05:58):
that something that you knew rightaway that you wanted to do or did you
come from a traditional workplace?
So I went to school for businessmarketing and entrepreneurship.
So I always knew I wanted to dosomething like in the creative realm.
I also like minored inart, like studio art.
(06:22):
That makes so much sense.
Yeah.
I knew I wanted to do something creative.
I knew I wanted to kind of run myown business, so to speak, and I just
didn't know what that was going to be.
I thought for a long time Iwanted to be a wedding planner.
I love events.
I love tablescapes, I love floraldesign, set design, like all of that
(06:44):
really like fills my bucket creatively.
So I thought I wanted to do that.
And then I worked for a wedding plannerfor about four years, and it's a lot
more like emailing than I thoughtit was gonna be like and contracts
and it just wasn't as creativelyfulfilling as I thought it would be.
And so then after graduation, I waskind of like, oh no, what am I gonna do?
(07:10):
I had started kind oflike a little food blog.
It was not good.
And I probably posted six recipes on it.
But through that, I found a job witha like startup in Cleveland that was
basically doing like what Uber Eatsdoes now, where we were partnering with
local businesses or local restaurants,the biggest chef names in Cleveland.
(07:34):
And they were creating meals for us.
And then they would package it inour packaging, and then we would
go and pick it up, and then wehad our own refrigerators, and
then we would deliver those meals.
And so every meal had microwaveand oven reheating instructions.
We had ingredient listsand chef write-ups.
(07:56):
And so I was doing all of that for thiscompany and then also photographing
and styling all of their meals.
And I loved the photographyand styling aspect of it.
And then I started reading interviewswith people who were actual
food stylists and I was like, ohwait, this is like an actual job.
I could actually do this.
(08:16):
And then, I mean, I absolutely hatedthis job, so it was kind of the worst.
My boss is just not very nice.
And so I lasted there for about a yearand I could tell the company was not
doing well and I was kinda like, okay,I could either go and like find another
job, or I could lean into this thingthat I really like and go backwards a
(08:40):
bit in my career and take an internship.
I started interning with a photo studioin Cleveland that sadly just closed,
but they had like three kitchensthroughout their studio and they
shot with like Smuckers and Nestle.
'Cause both Smuckers and Nestle arelike based in the Cleveland area.
(09:02):
And so like Nestle obviously has amillion brands and so does Smuckers.
They would shoot for otherfood brands like they shot
for Red Lobster at the time.
And so I was just getting exposedto food stylists being, exposed
to different brands and I ended upreally being drawn to the kitchen.
(09:22):
Through that internship I kindof started assisting a bit.
As you probably know, the assisting lifetrying to get to a stylist role is a four
or five year process of trying everything.
So I was teaching cooking classesat Sur La Table, I was doing craft
(09:42):
services, so there was like a moviethat shot in Cleveland and I did
craft services on it for a month.
I would cater for large photo shootswhere it was like 35 people in the studio.
I would make breakfastand lunch for everybody.
And it was just like throwing myself intoall of these different situations where I
(10:03):
could learn, I could create some contacts.
And eventually that spawnedinto assisting full-time.
And so I started assisting full-timeand did that for about two years.
Then went freelance asjust a food stylist.
So it was definitely a process to getthere, but I look back very fondly at
(10:26):
all of those memories because I do thinkthat all of those smaller experiences
do help you become just a much morewell-rounded stylist in the end.
Do you think you would've discoveredlike the value of surrounding yourself
with people, and all the lessons thatyou've learned over the years as a
(10:48):
freelancer, do you think you would'vediscovered any of that if you'd
had stayed in in a traditional job?
Yeah.
I could never really picturemyself like in an office setting.
It's the worst.
Don't do it.
Yeah.
I don't know if it's like not beingdiagnosed with maybe some ADHD in there.
I cannot sit still at a desk and, and Ilearned that very quickly and I love how
(11:14):
every day is different in my job, even ifI'm working with the same client, we're
shooting different food, we're shooting adifferent campaign, and so there's always
something fun and different and there'snew people that you get to meet and all of
that like kind of dynamicness of this job.
(11:35):
It's just so much more funthan going into an office every
day and with the same people.
The beautiful thing I think aboutworking with food, it's endless.
Like there is always something morethat you can learn and whether it's
a new cooking technique or a newcuisine, there's so many routes you
can take through food, and that is partof why I think every day is so fun.
(12:00):
Because one day I could be styling thislike super chef driven like tablescape.
The next, I could be doing something likevery commercial for like a burger company.
So getting to kind of have like littleart projects every day is kind of like
the way I look at it, it's like, oh,this little burger, it's like a mini art
(12:20):
project, and then I'm gonna finish that.
I'm gonna get that approved and thenI'm gonna go to the next sandwich
and it's the next little art project.
I think of like every shot as like,what is the story behind this?
And like some things where you're shootingit on a white background, obviously
you're not gonna feel that way about.
But anything involving a tablescapeor any environment, you're thinking,
(12:43):
okay, who is sitting down to this meal?
Or who is sitting down in this bar settingand what are they gonna be ordering?
And it could go like.
I work with this set stylist prettyoften and we'll be like, okay,
what's the story behind this?
So we'll be like, okay, it's a hotelbar and this couple is coming in.
And then we're like, andthey're having a torrid affair.
(13:06):
And we'll just like go into stitcheson set, like, Oh, this like whole
elaborate storyline of, okay, thesepeople are sitting down at this meal.
But it helps you like go into thatenvironment and think, okay, really
what are they going to be eating?
If it's a restaurant bar, whereis that restaurant located?
(13:27):
What kind of food do they specialize in?
What's the clientele like?
And all of those decisions willthen push me into a good route
to take with the food styling.
And that'll take her in a goodroute with the set styling.
And it might help the photographerwith their lighting or with
like a background, they choose.
All of those things.
(13:48):
I think, I think it is very powerfulthat we are trusted to tell these
stories for these brands that aretrying to get, get their stories across.
Mm. I think you might have been orcould be a playwright in another
career, 'cause I mean, those are allthe things that playwrights think
(14:10):
about whenever they're writing a show.
It's brilliant that that's your approach.
That's what makes an image reallystand out, are the little teeny tiny
details that no one can think about.
Like the creator thinksabout little things.
To really create a moment.
(14:30):
There's someone out there who's eitherexperiencing that moment that you just
created, or they have experienced, orthey want to experience that moment that
you just created, and they feel so muchmore drawn and connected to that than
they would to just an average photo.
Well, it's like finding theethos, the feeling in any image.
(14:51):
It's like, what is whateverbrand trying to get across?
Are they trying to get across that?
Like this is a yogurt thatyou're eating on the go.
Is it a yogurt that you're, you'resavoring this beautiful like morning
brunch and having a yogurt with like abeautiful coffee, like in a beautiful.
Outdoor setting is it you're grabbingcoffee from Starbucks and it's all
(15:15):
about the drive-through experience,so there's like so many different
points that you can look at.
Something as simple as yogurt and you cantell a million different stories with it.
And so deciding like whatis our story going to be?
Or usually the brand telling uswhat the story is going to be and
then creating those little moments.
(15:37):
I think that is somethingthat's so beautiful about food
because you can't help but havean emotional connection to it.
It sustains us, it fuels us.
I mean there are certain people I'vemet who are like, I would drink all
of my calories and never eat anything,and I just think, what a boring life.
Yes, I want all the stories andI want all of those experience.
(16:02):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I see people like that and I'm like,so what do you do with your time?
I don't know.
I don't even know if we can havea conversation after this.. I
wanna ask you this, 'cause we'retalking about building a scene.
When you are building a scene withyour set stylist and you guys are
(16:23):
like thinking about storylines andwhat's happening in this moment,
how does color guide your decisions?
Or does it guide it at all?
I think sometimes color willguide it, color and texture,
like especially within a dish.
And a lot of times, like I will havea dish in mind, or from a set stylist
(16:47):
perspective, we may have to shootin a bowl that they have chosen or
that the client wants to showcase.
I work with a couple clients whoare like dishware and glassware
companies, and so we're liketrying to show off their product.
So it's almost less about the food.
And so in like those instances, we'll saylike, okay, this is kind of the story.
(17:12):
This is like where the setting is,what colors are going to really bring
out the colors in this dishware?
What's gonna compliment nicely?
But then I like to think about texture.
Shape a lot as well.
And so like how do you kind ofbuild the three together to showcase
the shape of a plate or a bowl?
(17:34):
Whether the bowl has a really deepwell, you might want to do something to
highlight that, or the facets in a glass,you may choose to do something more
translucent or more cloudy based on theway you want the light to shine through.
And so I think everything is abig collaboration between the
(17:54):
stylists, the food stylist, theset stylist, and the photographer.
And I love working in collaborationwith, with those people.
So it's always really fun tokind of creatively approach.
It's called the T tripod, thetrifecta, what are they called?
The trifecta?
Yeah, the trifecta.
(18:15):
You mentioned earlier that you hada minor in art and I got so excited
because I called it when I firstfound your website, I immediately
thought, oh, this is like fine art.
This belongs, like, her stylingis something that I would see in
(18:35):
a Dutch painting and like I justimmediately felt drawn to that.
'cause that's what I'm obsessed with.
So with that being said, is therean artist or art movement that
you secretly or not so secretlychannel whenever you're styling?
(18:56):
Sometimes I feel like I'm not intendingit, but it kind of turns out that way.
I love art history.
Art history was one of myfavorite classes in in college.
And then my color theory wasanother class that I just love.
And so I do think like drawing on,you know, artists that I love, I
wouldn't say there's one particularlike artist or like time period.
(19:20):
I mean, I love the Impressionists.
I love, I mean, Van Gogh is amazing, butI am just as obsessed with modern art and
photography and design and architecture.
And so I do kind of take like all of thoseinfluences and kind of pick and choose.
Also just like regular everydaypeople, I'm like the queen
(19:43):
of screenshotting things.
And so I will screenshot my heart away,like on Instagram or on Pinterest.
I obviously have like savedPinterest boards and saved Instagram
boards and things like that.
But I'll screenshot kind ofanything that inspires me.
And then when it comes time todo like a test shoot or something
(20:04):
that's a little bit more creative,then I'll pull some of those images.
It could be a book cover that Ilove or a storyline that I kind
of wanna follow in like food form.
So yeah, it's really fun to get todo like those very creative, more
studio art type projects alongwith everything else that I do.
(20:25):
What's something totally randomoutside of food that influences
the way you style a dish?
Oh gosh.
I would say it's kind of like connectedwith food, but I am part of a cookbook
club I've always loved cookbooks.
It's something like from a really youngage, I've always loved editorial like
(20:49):
magazines, Martha Stewart and Real Simple.
I was seven years old and liketelling my mom like, we must make
this Easter cake on Martha Stewart'scookbook, or like her magazine cover.
I was, I must make this.
And so I've always just like loveddoing things like from cookbooks.
(21:11):
And then I started this cookbook cluband that has really inspired me to
like style things in like a much morerelaxed way and like lived in way.
And I love just looking at cookbooksand how people like put them together
and what ingredients are, like theirmust have items in their pantry
(21:33):
and, and different techniques.
And so, I mean, I have probably overa hundred cookbooks and so whenever
we get together, I think that's oneof the most deeply inspiring things.
The three girls that I have thecookbook club with, one is a food
stylist, one is food photographer, andone is a producer for a food studio.
(21:54):
And so it's two food stylists,a photographer and a producer.
It's kind of like the perfectamalgamation of just like I have my
girls who like are just like some ofmy best friends and we get to cook and
then like I also my best friend sincechildhood, she and I love to cook and
like that is how we spend our time.
(22:16):
So it's definitely not something otherthan food, but enjoying food in like a
different way than just onset creatingan image I feel like just leads to
so much more joy around food, which Ithink just like bleeds into your work.
That's a lot of cookbooks.
Over a hundred cookbooks.
That's a lot of cookbooks.
(22:37):
I know.
It's a sickness.
It's a sickness.
No, no.
I'll not be cured.
You need more cookbooks.
Yeah.
One can never have too many cookbooks.
There's still a coupleblank spaces on my shelves.
So until those are totally filled.
(22:58):
My dream house is like wall towall books, and then on the other
side, wall to wall coffee mugs.
Oh, yes.
And then like a big old likewall space just for cookbooks.
Like I just want a giantwall space for cookbooks.
I love the idea of a cookbook club.
(23:18):
Whose idea was it?
It was technically my idea.
I had read an article years andyears ago about it and I was
like, this would be really fun.
And then I just started likepitching it to different friends.
And these three friends arejust kind of like the perfect
three people to do it with.
You know, we're all in the industry.
(23:39):
We all love food, we all lovesitting down to a meal together.
And three of us, well we've all workedtogether like at different points in
our careers and so we know, like wework really well in a kitchen together.
Claire, the other food stylist, she andI have been in a kitchen together, like
(24:00):
for, I mean, you could probably count uplike years at this point instead of days.
Laura is like the greatestorganizer in the world.
She's a producer, and then she also kindof produces us while we're doing it.
So she will say, okay, you'reworking on this, you're working
on this, you're working on this.
And then Megan, she doesn'thave as much experience in the
(24:24):
kitchen, but she's a great cook.
She is always taking photos ofour meal before we sit down.
Like she's always theone getting the shots.
She's like taking all the shots ofus, like, wow, we're prepping food.
And so we try to meetup like once a month.
It doesn't always work out.
And we'll choose a cookbook based oneither, like something that's coming
(24:46):
out that we're really excited about, or.
Or it's a cookbook that we'vehad for a lot of years and we
haven't made anything from it.
So like our first cookbook, which stilllike goes down in cookbook club lore,
was Andy Baraghani from Bon Appetit.
His cookbook, I think it's called likeThe Cook You Are or something like that.
(25:09):
It goes down in complete lore.
We kind of refer to it as like our Bible.
Like we say like what would Andy do?
We love, like the way heuses like tons of herbs.
And I would say it's like veryclose to like our personal
like cooking style and ethos.
(25:30):
But we've done like restaurantcookbooks, so we've done like
Bestia from LA and Heartwood,which is this restaurant in Tulum.
We've done both of their cookbooks.
We've done Molly Baz andAlison Roman, Melissa Clark.
So it's like a lot of heavy hitters.
And then, we did one withEden Grish Pan, I think is how
(25:55):
you pronounce her last name.
And her second book just came out.
And so we're already talking abouthow great the first one was and how
we wanna do the second cookbook.
Once we've kind of figured out a, abook, then we'll also decide like,
okay, what kind of time is best.
And so like we've done brunchcookbooks and done it like at brunch
(26:18):
time, but most of them are dinners.
We'll choose a person's house and allfour of us are comfortable hosting.
And so we'll choose a house,we'll choose a time, and then
whoever is hosting will have thatcookbook and go through and choose.
We try to choose between four and sixrecipes based on like how big they are.
(26:41):
Usually we'll try to do a protein, asalad and like two other vegetable sides.
And then if there's like a cooldessert or a cool drink that we
wanna try or like a cool appetizer,we'll like do one of those.
So we've made ice creams and sorbet andwe've, we made homemade pasta, we've
(27:02):
grilled, we've done all sorts of things.
And so it's just so fun, likegetting to try new things and then.
For example, like Andy Baraghanihad this scallop recipe that I know
Claire and I have both done likeiterations of in our own styling work
because we're just like, this dishwas so beautiful, I wanna recreate it.
(27:25):
Sometimes it's just trying a really greatdifferent dish that you might not think
you would enjoy or it's a different wayof preparing something and then that will
inform your work later down the road.
Oh my God, am right.
All right.
I'm flying to Cleveland.
I'm joining y'all's book club.
(27:46):
Yes.
Join us.
Join us.
I think I can handle once a month flyingback and forth for the cookbook club.
I wanna be a part of this so much.
It's so funny because like peopleask to be a part of it and we're
like, okay, significant others likearen't allowed to be a part of it.
(28:08):
You're not allowed.
But the significant others will popup at the end of the meal and you're
like, you can have the last of the foodafter we've all had like seconds and
thirds, then you can have food or like,we'll save a little dessert for you.
But like, that's it.
Except every year around theholidays we'll do one meal where
everyone will invite someone.
(28:30):
And so usually it's like asignificant other or a good friend.
And so then we'll like go really all out.
And so this past year we did a hotpot, like Szechuan Hot Pot, and we had
like tons of different like dippersand we made our hot pot base from
scratch and it was so epic and amazing.
(28:50):
It was very cool.
I mean we just love doing stuff like that.
We're very extra.
I love that though.
I love that though.
And what I, what I love is thatin addition to like doing, cooking
these recipes together, you arealso kind of doing like test shoots.
Yeah.
(29:11):
Everyone gets to practice theirtrade still, but it's done in a much
less like, stressful environment.
And, and it just, it reminds you, this iswhy I do this, this is why I love this.
Because of moments like this.
I also think moments like that, youget to break whatever rules that are
(29:32):
in place if there's such a thing andyou just get to play and experience.
So with that being said, what'sa styling habit or rule that
you secretly love breaking?
It's not a secret once you tell it though.
Just so you know.
When I saw this question, the thingthat I immediately thought of, there's
(29:54):
a client that I shoot for and they don'tlike seeing the ends of pasta noodles.
What?
This is so specific, butthey do like a lot of pasta.
It's for like a large restaurant chain.
And they have in like theirnotes, they don't like to see
the ends of the pasta noodles.
Like they think it lookslike too messy or something.
(30:16):
And this has been like, sinceI started with this company,
like it's always been this way.
And then the last shoot I hadwith them, they, they were like,
okay, we're doing Bucatini now.
We're gonna have to show some ends.
So you can tell that it's bucatinibecause Bucatini has like a
little hole through the noodle.
And let me tell you, I was sothrilled to expose like two
(30:40):
noodle ends in this pasta dish.
I was like, this is what I live for.
Just breaking those rules.
So that's of course the one that Icould think of, like right off the rip.
It's just like, oh yeah, those like littlesilly, little like brand guideline rules.
I'm like, okay, I'm gonnapush this just a little bit
(31:03):
and let me tell you, there is a lotof discussion about those noodles.
That's such a strange rule.
Yeah.
There's a lot of discussion onset about those two exposed ends.
So
I bet whoever like wrote the brandguidelines, they were like sweating
and they're like, oh my God, Ithink God, I am pushing this.
(31:25):
The,
We're seeing the ends of some pasta.
So it's like things like that whereyou just, this is when you really
have to laugh and say like, I lovemy job because this is the kind
of stuff that is just making youcrack up in the middle of the day.
Exactly.
(31:46):
And that cracks me up so much.
Do you think more stylists shouldtrust their gut over the rules?
And if so, why?
I think a lot of things come into play.
One thing is having like some trustbetween yourself and the client.
Like I wouldn't do that on my firstshoot with a client by any means
(32:10):
because they don't know me, theydon't know what I'm trying to do.
And so the first few times I'll playby their rules and then once they
get to know me, if there's somethingwhere I'm like, okay, realistically
like this cheese wouldn't pull or itwould act this way instead of this way.
In a real setting, you can start to havethose conversations with your clients and
(32:33):
be like, look, you know, you and I bothknow this isn't real, so like, let's try
to make it look a little bit more real.
And sometimes they'll be really open tothat and sometimes it's a conversation
between the photographer and youbefore you bring it up to a client.
But yeah, by and large, I think once youas a food stylist has more food knowledge
(32:56):
than someone in marketing for a foodcompany, they do start to like trust you
and trust your instincts with things.
Oh, for sure.
Has your relationship with rulesevolved as you've grown in your career?
Just in general, like my career is kindof like a big rule break in general.
(33:18):
Like I did not think I wouldbe doing something like this.
Every one in my family has had verytraditional careers and you know, have
had like a very clear like through lineof like, okay, we're gonna do these
five steps and then we're gonna havethis corporate job, and then we're gonna
(33:39):
have this corporate job until we retire.
And then you show up and you'relike, I'm a food stylist.
And they're like, what's that?
So you take photos of food?
And I'm like, no, no, no.
10 years later, no, I'mnot taking the photos.
No.
(34:02):
But it's really cool gettingto break those rules.
Now I do hope, like I inspire otherpeople to break rules and to break,
like kind of what they thought theywere going to do in their life.
I think it's so fun to trainnew people now and like bring
them into this industry.
(34:24):
So I'm kind of teaching other people tobreak the rules a little bit now, where
I have an assistant that I've workedwith for a couple years and he's a very
regimented guy and I think he easily couldhave gone down like a restaurant path,
but now he's in this different careerand he's like, I would never go back.
Like, this is so much more funand creative and you make better
(34:48):
money and you have better hours.
And I'm like, yeah, come to the table.
Sit down.
Let's have some fun.
Yes.
You mentioned about like yourcareer just being one big giant
rule break and how everyone in yourfamily has had traditional jobs.
I connected so much with that because inmy family it pretty much is the same way.
(35:13):
And I did the college thing and I gotthe traditional job and it sucked.
And then when I did get into freelancing,my mindset was like, well, what
do you have to lose at this point?
Like you already did thetraditional job, you didn't like
it, so what harm could there be?
And you can always go back to it.
It's always gonna be there.
(35:34):
Exactly.
It's always gonna be there.
I've had some friends that didtry freelancing photography and
they realized, this is not for me.
Like I love the creativity, but Idon't like the business side of it.
That's totally valid.
Like the inconsistencies withpaychecks, like having to kind of
spend some money to make some money.
(35:55):
All of those things.
A lot of people are not comfortablewith taking that amount of
risk with their livelihoods,and I totally understand that.
But when you're, I mean, at least likefor an assistant or for me, like I was
25, it was kind of like, I have nothingto lose at this point in my life.
Like, I'm gonna go down this other pathand if it doesn't work out, you know,
(36:18):
I have a degree I can fall back on.
But if I don't do this,I'm always gonna regret it.
And I'm always gonna think, what if.
You're always gonna wonder.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think what makes our millennialgeneration different from our
predecessors is that a lot of usdo follow that traditional path.
(36:42):
And we realize, A, it sucks and wedon't like it, but as opposed to our
previous generations, we didn't just,we're not just staying in this shit.
You spend the majority of your day atyour job, if you don't like your job
and you don't like the people that youwork with, that means you are unhappy
(37:03):
eight to nine hours of your day, likethat's your whole day of being unhappy.
And then you multiply that timesfive days a week, and then on the
weekends you're just dreading goingback to work the following Monday.
So it's like you're justconstantly unhappy and it's
like, why should you sit in that?
Why should you accept that?
And you're also bringing thenegative energy of not liking
(37:25):
your job into every evening thatyou spend with your loved ones.
It does tend to just feedthis like negative cycle of
like, I'm miserable at my job.
You're kind of just miserableto a certain extent.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're just walking with thisgray cloud over you, like constantly
over you, and without realizingit or intending to, you're putting
(37:48):
that over everyone else's heads too,and we're just not sitting in that.
I was like a sophomore in high schoolwhen the 2008 financial crash happened.
And so at that point, I was, no one,nothing is secure going and getting
this education, but there's no guaranteethat some corporate job is gonna
(38:09):
keep me even I could get laid off.
It's like the economy goes bad,like, and it is a risk being
in a job, a freelance career ifsomething happens financially again.
But I would rather risk that, andeverybody's gotta eat during COVID
when a lot of things went badly.
(38:31):
I mean, food companies were shooting crazyand so everybody's gotta eat all the time.
And those dollars keep gettingput toward those ad dollars.
Then CPG brands, they whew, theywere like throwing cash everywhere.
(38:51):
Yeah.
And so you might feel it for sixmonths, but then it's gonna rebound
and you might do even better thanyou would've in a normal year.
So, you know, you cannever really plan it out.
Folks who decide and learn aboutthemselves that they don't like the
the up and down nature of freelancingthat they need stability, I think
(39:15):
that's super brave of them to realizethat and to own that and go with it.
Because the up and downit really, it's stressful.
It
is.
Yeah.
It can be stressful and like when Italk to people who are like curious
about what it's like to be a freelancer.
And I tell them, you know, it reallyfeels every month is so different.
(39:39):
One month it's like nothing and thenthe next few months it's like feast.
And I got shoot, shoot shoots and then twomonths will go by and then I have no work.
And so it's like constantly just upand down, up and down, up and down.
Some years are better,some are like real scary.
You do have to like gasyourself up in those moments.
(40:01):
And when it's like a pang inthe soul when someone asks
you, Hey, how's business going?
How's work going?
And you have to say,
and so that is stressful.
That is a stressful thing.
Well I think it's also, we take ourjobs so personally too because it is
(40:21):
us kind of selling ourselves in a way.
When you do have those slow times.
It's very natural to be like, it'ssomething that I've done wrong when
so much of it is just like thingsare going on with whatever company
and they're like going in a differentdirection for like an ad campaign or
like, or there's like a company ishaving trouble getting a product and so
(40:44):
they're gonna push the job for a month.
But you just for some reasonthink like it is all me and I
fall into that trap so much.
It was definitely in 2023where I was really considering.
Asking myself, what is keeping me here?
What is keeping me in this place?
Out of everything that you've gonethrough, ups, downs, what part of this
(41:10):
career journey has stretched you the most?
It can be personally, itcan be professionally.
What was something you had to let go ofin order to like really step into every
new chapter that you found yourself in?
Honestly, the biggest thing that I'velearned is having like true confidence
in yourself and your abilities.
(41:30):
I am not a self-promotional person.
Like I hate it.
I get anxiety about sending an emailsaying like, I wanna work with you.
I do not like to promotemyself in any way.
And I'm very shy.
And so going into an industry likethis where so much of whether or not
(41:51):
you're successful is how much you canpromote yourself is such a big thing.
A big part of not feelingcomfortable promoting myself
was a self-confidence thing.
And I've gained so much self-confidencethrough this job, and especially now
that I am a lead stylist and makingall of the big decisions myself.
(42:15):
You learn to really trustyourself and trust your instincts.
That was something I really hada hard time with for a long time.
But I'll still have those moments oflike a little bit of doubt if like, I
have a, like a rough shoot or you'rejust like, okay, I did all of this.
Then something happened on the shoot andyou just didn't feel that great about it.
(42:38):
Also I have moments where it'shard to separate myself from that.
But in those times I've learned it'sbetter to push into my own creativity
and my own voice, 'cause usually if I'min like that mood of not feeling super
confident, it's usually from a pointwhere I'm doing a lot of commercial work.
(43:02):
So I'll like find a day or two in myschedule and I'll reach out to of photo.
I have a group of photographers that Iwould reach out to and say like, Hey,
would you wanna do like a test shoot?
And that really gets me out of my head.
It really allows you to get intoa very creative space where you're
(43:24):
only creating for yourself and forthe photographer who's with you.
Whenever I'm able to do that, I findit much easier to snap back into like,
oh, okay, I am, I am good at my job.
I do really enjoy thisand am good at this.
I just did a test shoot last week'cause I had some time free up
(43:44):
on my schedule and just like,let's just shoot some sandwiches.
Let's just do, this.
Wasn't anything crazy, but we did acouple different sandwich shots and
now we both have them for our poliosand we have something that we can push
on social media and that may lead towork down the road and it may not.
(44:04):
And if it doesn't, I stillfeel more fulfilled than I
did had I not done that job.
Katie, you were speakingsome gospel about confidence.
I was like snapping my fingers.
I was like, yes.
Yes.
Oh my God, yes.
Yeah, I just bow my hands down becauseconfidence is such a struggle for me.
(44:27):
And one of my goals for 2024 was to workon my self-esteem and to like build myself
up and fill my own cup and, and not lookfor external sources of fulfillment.
Because I realized that if I did that,if I relied on outside sources to feel
good about myself, that I would never,ever, ever truly feel good about me and
(44:53):
feel like I have anything worth offering.
So I love that you really touched on that.
It's also like when you do have a lagin work where like, I can look at my
calendar and be like, oh my God, I'mnot booked for the next two weeks.
Like, what am I gonna do?
And I just know myself.
I know my mind will just spiral thatbecause I'll see on social media
(45:16):
that other people at other studiosacross the country are working.
And I'm like, oh my God, but I'm not.
And so then it's like, okay, let mejust schedule a test shoot, because
then I'll still be in that creativemindset and I'll get a little something
out of it in the form of some images.
(45:37):
And then it's also just, yeah, not keepingyourself distracted enough where you're
not letting those voices like take over.
And I will also say it's,I am not a pro at that.
I. Two weeks ago, I was probablylike, everything is going to hell.
Like
I have those moments all the time andI'm acting like I'm some expert in
(46:00):
getting over it and I'm definitely not.
But I have learned having acreative outlet outside of
whatever job that I'm booked onis always a helpful thing for me.
So like gardening or having a cookbookclub to plan, all of those little
things help distract me in slow moments.
Mm, I love that.
(46:22):
I love that so much.
Oh my gosh.
I'm loving this conversation so much.
Me too.
Gosh.
Same.
I wanna close out this interviewwith asking for the kind of advice
that you wouldn't find on Google.
I mean, this is the kind of lessonsthat you only learn by living
(46:43):
it, building it, staying with it.
What advice would you give toa stylist who's talented but
struggling to get traction?
I know confidence is one of them.
What other advice would yougive to them in this moment?
So I think a big thing that's beenbeneficial in my career, I've worked
(47:04):
with this one studio in Cleveland anddone a quite a lot of work with them.
And one of the two owners would sit downwith stylists and he would go over their
portfolios and this is very much like backto my studio art days of doing critiques.
(47:24):
And so he would have you critique theirwebsite with their portfolio and he would
just go through each image and you wouldhave to say something that you didn't
like about every one of his images thatlike they are selling their studio on.
And then he would kind of do the same forme and like poke holes in my portfolio
(47:48):
of like, okay, I see you have thissplash here, but this splash could be so
much better if it was more exaggerated.
If you were to replace an image in yourportfolio, you should replace this image
and get a stronger image of a splash.
He would also help me think about theway that my portfolio was laid out and
(48:10):
the way images would flow into each otherand how you don't want a ton of overhead
images, one right after another, how youshould switch up the angle or throw in
a macro image or throw in a tablescape.
And that was so beneficial to me to notonly like look at my own portfolio, but
(48:32):
to tear someone else's apart because hiskind of point in it all was everyone has
what they like and your creating your owntaste by kind of tearing down our stuff.
And also he'll do the same with mystuff and he could point to my portfolio
and be like, okay, you have oneburger image and it's very commercial.
(48:57):
Let's get like a very editorial burgeron your portfolio somewhere where
it's more something you would see ina magazine or it's really exaggerated
and first of all, that you trust.
So I would go to like someone that youcollaborate with on a semi-regular basis,
just sit down with them and be like,Hey, can I take you out for a drink?
(49:20):
Or Can I take you out for a coffee andcan you just look over my portfolio?
I want to know what yousee when you look at this.
And then those people also have someof the best advice for a company
that you wouldn't have even thoughtyou should shoot or test for.
And they could see somethingin your portfolio and be like,
Hey, this image is really great.
(49:42):
Why don't you do a series andthen you can present that series
to this coffee brand, let's say.
Coming out with those little ways offinding ways to build your portfolio
and also finding ways to like almostpigeonhole yourself a little bit.
I would say like every food stylistkind of knows how to do everything,
(50:02):
but they excel in certain areas and solike some people may excel doing a very
beautiful chef driven tablescape andsome may do great with commercial burgers
or lasagna and like big cheese pulls.
Everyone has their own little subsetthat they are really, really, really
(50:25):
good at and where they find a lot of joy.
And so following those littlepathways can sometimes help
bring new opportunities around.
I love to shoot ice cream, and Iknow a lot of stylists hate to do
ice cream, and I find it so fun.
Can I bring you to Texas?
(50:47):
Yes, please.
Now that I know that you likestyling ice cream, I'm like, yes.
Yes.
Oh my God, yes.
I love fighting with dry ice andhaving things be the right temperature.
And I love the meltiness andI love like all the texture
you can create with ice cream.
None of my friends who are stylists,all of them are like, I hate ice cream.
(51:11):
Why do you like it?
You're so crazy.
Like crazy.
I'm like, I know.
I know.
I'm crazy.
But I do really like it
Because of the challenges thatice cream presents to you.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so you just have to like followthose little creative pathways.
If someone is at a standstill, havingsomeone come in that has an outside
(51:35):
perspective and has no skin in thegame for your career, they can say
like, Hey, this is what you're missing.
Follow this, do a test shoot around it.
And then if it's a photographerthat you reached out to, they might
also want to do that test shoot.
And so you can create those littleopportunities and then that will
eventually snowball into something bigger.
(51:56):
It's such a vulnerable thing toapproach someone and say, help me,
please help me see what I'm not seeing.
In photography school wedid the critiquing as well.
Like everybody put theirwork up and I loved.
It's like critiquing session.
I loved it because I'm like, please don'ttell me that this is a perfect photo.
(52:16):
Please don't tell me thatthis is a great photo.
Please don't tell me thatthere's nothing to be improved.
I don't wanna hear any of thatbecause that's not gonna help me.
But there were some classmates ofmine who absolutely detested it
and they took it so personal thatthey took it as a personal attack.
We were attacking their character.
And it's like, we're not, we're doingthis because we care about you and
(52:37):
we want you to like be successful.
And the ones who are like open toconstructive criticism and would
take everything that they were toldand apply it to their next shoot,
to their next project, they improvedas photographers and they're like
killing it right now in the game.
And the ones who are not open to it,who got defensive, who talked over
(52:58):
everybody who interrupted peopleand came up with excuses and took it
personal, they're doing the same shitand they're not like growing as artists.
Their work looks absolutelythe same since like day one.
Yeah.
Well, and I think as creatives,the last thing we wanna do
is be stagnant in our career.
(53:19):
Like we always wanna be moving, wealways wanna be like trying something
different and just asking for thoseoutside perspectives like allows you to
go in all of those different directions.
I'll also say, if you are workingwith a client on set, you're being
critiqued every day, every time thoseclients and they do not give a shit.
(53:40):
I mean I've been in like themost wild critique sessions
where you're like, say what now?
Like, do you want what?
And, and you're like, okay, we okay.
And so having like the opportunityto have kind of a nicer critique from
someone who like does care about yourcareer and, and who wants to see you
(54:03):
improve just as much as you want toimprove, I think finding those people
and that is a difficult thing to do.
I don't think everybody has that person.
Yes.
Find that person who can actually giveconstruct, 'cause that's the other thing.
There's a book that I, I have yetto buy, but I, I want to, and I
(54:26):
wanna read it, but it's like, howto give constructive criticism.
Lemme find the book.
Yeah.
It's like finding the rightperson to give you that criticism.
The freelance community in Clevelandis amazing and a lot of the photo
assistants and food stylists and, anddifferent people set stylists would
get together and we would do portfolioreviews of like 10 portfolios and
(54:49):
we would just put our websites up,like on a TV or on a big computer
and we would just go through them.
Or way back in the day when I was firststarting, some of them were printed
and you would lay them out like ona big table and then you would like
walk through and look and even if it's10 different people in your industry
who all work on these types of shootstogether, they will all have different
(55:13):
opinions and different knowledgeof different brands and different
photographers that they might workwith outside of however you know them.
And so maybe if a food stylist ishaving some trouble and like need some
traction, have five to 10 freelancepeople that you know from the industry.
They don't have to be super closely likerelated to you, but have like 10 people
(55:39):
to a coffee shop or have 10 people to aphoto studio or to your house and just sit
down and everyone will benefit from it.
And then you're also exposingall of those people to your work.
And so I think it's like alwaysbeneficial no matter what.
Yes, yes.
It's definitely withpeople that you trust.
(56:00):
It's definitely people that areartists in their own sense, and
they know what to look out for.
They know what questions to ask.
Those are the type of people that like youneed to surround yourself with, and you're
all there to like help each other grow.
So I love everythingthat you said about that.
There's like a couple of booksthat I read about constructive
(56:22):
feedback and how to give it.
Maybe just, this really comesfrom my like traditional job role.
I worked as a it was a glorified officemanager at a physical therapy clinic.
But you do the one-on-ones andthey tell you how you're doing
and where you can improve.
And you know, I had bosses thatwere wonderful about giving me
feedback, how I can improve in my job.
(56:44):
And then I had some bosses thatjust sucked and they were terrible.
And I'd walk outta that officeand I'm like, whatever bad
thing is meant to happen to you.
I hope it happens like today.
Like I hope it happens like yesterday.
Like that's how like shittyyou made me feel just now.
Well like talk about bad feedback.
When I was telling you about myfirst job where I had the boss,
(57:05):
I did, he would look at a photoand just be like, I don't like it.
And I'd be like, whatdon't you like about it?
And he'd just be like, I don't know.
And that's it.
And he didn't say anything else.
Oh my God.
And I would be like, do younot like the background?
Do you not like the plate?
Do you not like the way it's styled?
Do you not like the way it's photographed?
(57:26):
Do you not like the lighting?
And he'd be like, I just don't like it.
Try again.
Oh
my God.
That is frustrating.
And as like a 23-year-oldyou are like, Oh my God,
I need deeds.
Can you tell me something.
(57:46):
That would drive me insane?
Be like, okay, I need more.
Please don't click bait me.
Can you tell me anything sir?
We would be trying to likefit the photo shoots in.
Maybe we should send homeboy thatbook and or give him the cliff notes.
'cause we know he's not gonna read it.
I have one last question for you.
(58:06):
When you think about everything you'vebuilt so far, what are you most proud of?
Even if no one sees it?
I think the community that Ihave, I'm the most proud of.
I have some of the best friends inthe world from this job, and there are
people who like truly understand mein a way that like not many people do.
(58:29):
My best friend from childhood, yes.
But aside from that, I can text like10 people about like a napkin and
I will get 10 responses being pumpedabout some napkin that I found.
It's such a fun thing to have peoplelike get just as excited as you are
about something, like having creativepartners that I really trust that I
(58:52):
get to work with day in and day out.
That's not only like the photographersand the set stylists, but it's the
photo assistants, it's the retouchersand the producers and all of the
food signing assistants that I workwith and the other food stylists
that I get to work with as a team.
It is so much larger thanthan just a couple people.
(59:15):
You don't realize how many people andhow many jobs go into creating something.
And even clients like I havenow seen clients meet, fall in
love with someone, get marriedand have like multiple children.
And it's incredible that like you havethese relationships with people where
(59:35):
you see their lives evolve and yourlife evolves and it's something like you
don't necessarily see from the outside.
But it's the best part of my job, truly.
I mean, I get to work with someof my best friends and you can be.
We're all creatives, we're allextremely emotional people.
(59:56):
So like you can be emotional andlike get frustrated and you have
kind of a safe space to landwith people you really trust.
And I think that's just so beautiful.
And that's definitely my favorite partof the job more than anything else.
It's just the people Iget to spend it with.
Talking about you do this 40 plus hours aweek, you want to enjoy your job and you
(01:00:21):
wanna enjoy like who you spend it with.
And I'm so lucky that I get tospend it with the best people.
That would be my favorite thing.
I enjoyed this so very much.
I
did too.
This conversation justfilled my soul so very much.
I enjoyed it so much.
(01:00:41):
Where can the listeners find you, followyou, absorb your work and admire you?
So my Instagram is Kaitlyn m Hale.
I can't get rid of that underscore.
And my website is Kaitlyn m hale com.
It's K-A-I-T-L-Y-N-M, hale, HAL e.com.
(01:01:07):
Well, Katie, thank you so verymuch for being on the show.
This is so good for my soul.
I enjoyed this so much.
Thank you so much, Mica.
This episode is written and producedby me, your host, Mica McCook.
Like this episode, give us afive star review on Apple Podcast
(01:01:28):
and subscribe to the Savory Shotwherever you get your podcast.
Or follow me your host, Mica McCook,on Instagram at Mica dot McCook.
Or you can follow the podcast onInstagram at a Savory Shot podcast.
If you have any questions, comments, orwould like to be featured on the show,
(01:01:49):
email us at podcast@thesavoryshot.com.
Welcome to the 67th episode of theSavory Shot, a podcast about the
(00:07):
art and soul of food photography.
I'm your host with the most Mica McCook.
I'm a food photographer based herein Austin, Texas, where the weather
has finally, finally cooled down.
Before we dive into today's feastof an episode, I wanna give a
(00:29):
shout out to y'all, the listeners.
Thank you for coming back.
Episode after episode, y'allcome back and y'all show this
little podcast so much love.
So thank you.
And if this is your first time tuningin, welcome to the Hot Mess Express.
(00:54):
Thanks for giving the show a listen.
I hope you enjoy it and comeback again and give me feedback.
Email me, I'm always open to suggestions.
Now let's talk about today's guest.
I'm joined by the phenomenal Kaitlyn Hale.
(01:14):
She's a Cleveland based food stylistwho treats every plate like a
mini art project and every shootlike a stage for storytelling.
In today's episode, we're digginginto what it means to find your
voice as a creative and how Kaitlyntraded contracts in corporate
(01:36):
life for a career in food styling.
Y'all, I felt like Kaitlyn andI were and are kindred spirits.
We talked about how Kaitlyn went froma burnt out marketing grad with a
barely used food blog to building acareer that lights her up creatively.
(02:00):
We talk about the quiet friction offinding your voice when you are still
learning what that voice even is.
And Kaitlyn talked about how learningto trust her gut even when the room
says otherwise, became her superpower.
This was one of those conversationsthat just makes you nod your head
(02:25):
and go, yes, yes, yes to all of that.
Yes.
So whether you are a seasoned proor still figuring out which end of
the camera to point at your plate.
This episode has got something for you.
But before we get into all of that, grabyour coffee, your notebook, and hey,
(02:52):
grab a snack and let's start the show.
Welcome to the Savory Shot, abiweekly show about the art and
soul of working in food photography.
I'm your host, Mica McCook.
Every other Wednesday I sit down tochat with professionals in the industry
so that you feast on only the besttips and strategies in the business.
(03:16):
Alright, y'all let's get started.
Katie, I wanna start this interview bythanking you for coming on the Savory
Shot, for spending your day off withme, and I'm just excited to have you
(03:40):
here and to have you on as a guest.
So thank you.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, happy to be here.
Okay, so I wanna start by asking you,what's one thing you've come to deeply
value since becoming a freelancer?
Oh gosh.
(04:01):
So I think one thing is just likethe ability to find your voice as
a freelancer and as a creative.
At first, I was just tryingto get any job as anyone does.
When you start in freelancing,you're like, I'll do anything.
I'll take any amount of money.
I just want to get my foot in the door.
But as I've built my career over the lastlike 10 plus years, I think developing
(04:27):
my voice and finding my voice as astylist and figuring out my strengths
and what I really enjoy doing has beenso beneficial to me in my career, and
has allowed me to find people that Ireally wanna work with who have similar
values and approaches to their work.
That's been really fun as partof this journey, I didn't think
(04:51):
necessarily that was somethingthat would come in this career.
Hmm.
Yes.
You get to build relationshipsand go, you know what?
I really like you and I wannawork on projects with you, and
it just makes it even that muchmore fulfilling and beautiful.
It just, your days are long,but they're not long days.
(05:14):
Yeah, like our days arestill be really fun.
I have to look at what I do.
Like I'm a food stylist.
It's a pinch me like job and it's alsolike I'm playing with food all day.
Truly.
I take it very seriously, butwhat I do is not that serious.
And then getting to do itsurrounded by people you really
enjoy is just like all the better.
(05:37):
We get to have a lot of fun and make funsnacks in the kitchen and getting to do
all of those little side things makes thejob that much better when it's surrounded
by people you really enjoy being around.
Absolutely.
Let me ask this, your backgroundinto getting into food styling, was
(05:58):
that something that you knew rightaway that you wanted to do or did you
come from a traditional workplace?
So I went to school for businessmarketing and entrepreneurship.
So I always knew I wanted to dosomething like in the creative realm.
I also like minored inart, like studio art.
(06:22):
That makes so much sense.
Yeah.
I knew I wanted to do something creative.
I knew I wanted to kind of run myown business, so to speak, and I just
didn't know what that was going to be.
I thought for a long time Iwanted to be a wedding planner.
I love events.
I love tablescapes, I love floraldesign, set design, like all of that
(06:44):
really like fills my bucket creatively.
So I thought I wanted to do that.
And then I worked for a wedding plannerfor about four years, and it's a lot
more like emailing than I thoughtit was gonna be like and contracts
and it just wasn't as creativelyfulfilling as I thought it would be.
And so then after graduation, I waskind of like, oh no, what am I gonna do?
(07:10):
I had started kind oflike a little food blog.
It was not good.
And I probably posted six recipes on it.
But through that, I found a job witha like startup in Cleveland that was
basically doing like what Uber Eatsdoes now, where we were partnering with
local businesses or local restaurants,the biggest chef names in Cleveland.
(07:34):
And they were creating meals for us.
And then they would package it inour packaging, and then we would
go and pick it up, and then wehad our own refrigerators, and
then we would deliver those meals.
And so every meal had microwaveand oven reheating instructions.
We had ingredient listsand chef write-ups.
(07:56):
And so I was doing all of that for thiscompany and then also photographing
and styling all of their meals.
And I loved the photographyand styling aspect of it.
And then I started reading interviewswith people who were actual
food stylists and I was like, ohwait, this is like an actual job.
I could actually do this.
(08:16):
And then, I mean, I absolutely hatedthis job, so it was kind of the worst.
My boss is just not very nice.
And so I lasted there for about a yearand I could tell the company was not
doing well and I was kinda like, okay,I could either go and like find another
job, or I could lean into this thingthat I really like and go backwards a
(08:40):
bit in my career and take an internship.
I started interning with a photo studioin Cleveland that sadly just closed,
but they had like three kitchensthroughout their studio and they
shot with like Smuckers and Nestle.
'Cause both Smuckers and Nestle arelike based in the Cleveland area.
(09:02):
And so like Nestle obviously has amillion brands and so does Smuckers.
They would shoot for otherfood brands like they shot
for Red Lobster at the time.
And so I was just getting exposedto food stylists being, exposed
to different brands and I ended upreally being drawn to the kitchen.
(09:22):
Through that internship I kindof started assisting a bit.
As you probably know, the assisting lifetrying to get to a stylist role is a four
or five year process of trying everything.
So I was teaching cooking classesat Sur La Table, I was doing craft
(09:42):
services, so there was like a moviethat shot in Cleveland and I did
craft services on it for a month.
I would cater for large photo shootswhere it was like 35 people in the studio.
I would make breakfastand lunch for everybody.
And it was just like throwing myself intoall of these different situations where I
(10:03):
could learn, I could create some contacts.
And eventually that spawnedinto assisting full-time.
And so I started assisting full-timeand did that for about two years.
Then went freelance asjust a food stylist.
So it was definitely a process to getthere, but I look back very fondly at
(10:26):
all of those memories because I do thinkthat all of those smaller experiences
do help you become just a much morewell-rounded stylist in the end.
Do you think you would've discoveredlike the value of surrounding yourself
with people, and all the lessons thatyou've learned over the years as a
(10:48):
freelancer, do you think you would'vediscovered any of that if you'd
had stayed in in a traditional job?
Yeah.
I could never really picturemyself like in an office setting.
It's the worst.
Don't do it.
Yeah.
I don't know if it's like not beingdiagnosed with maybe some ADHD in there.
I cannot sit still at a desk and, and Ilearned that very quickly and I love how
(11:14):
every day is different in my job, even ifI'm working with the same client, we're
shooting different food, we're shooting adifferent campaign, and so there's always
something fun and different and there'snew people that you get to meet and all of
that like kind of dynamicness of this job.
(11:35):
It's just so much more funthan going into an office every
day and with the same people.
The beautiful thing I think aboutworking with food, it's endless.
Like there is always something morethat you can learn and whether it's
a new cooking technique or a newcuisine, there's so many routes you
can take through food, and that is partof why I think every day is so fun.
(12:00):
Because one day I could be styling thislike super chef driven like tablescape.
The next, I could be doing something likevery commercial for like a burger company.
So getting to kind of have like littleart projects every day is kind of like
the way I look at it, it's like, oh,this little burger, it's like a mini art
(12:20):
project, and then I'm gonna finish that.
I'm gonna get that approved and thenI'm gonna go to the next sandwich
and it's the next little art project.
I think of like every shot as like,what is the story behind this?
And like some things where you're shootingit on a white background, obviously
you're not gonna feel that way about.
But anything involving a tablescapeor any environment, you're thinking,
(12:43):
okay, who is sitting down to this meal?
Or who is sitting down in this bar settingand what are they gonna be ordering?
And it could go like.
I work with this set stylist prettyoften and we'll be like, okay,
what's the story behind this?
So we'll be like, okay, it's a hotelbar and this couple is coming in.
And then we're like, andthey're having a torrid affair.
(13:06):
And we'll just like go into stitcheson set, like, Oh, this like whole
elaborate storyline of, okay, thesepeople are sitting down at this meal.
But it helps you like go into thatenvironment and think, okay, really
what are they going to be eating?
If it's a restaurant bar, whereis that restaurant located?
(13:27):
What kind of food do they specialize in?
What's the clientele like?
And all of those decisions willthen push me into a good route
to take with the food styling.
And that'll take her in a goodroute with the set styling.
And it might help the photographerwith their lighting or with
like a background, they choose.
All of those things.
(13:48):
I think, I think it is very powerfulthat we are trusted to tell these
stories for these brands that aretrying to get, get their stories across.
Mm. I think you might have been orcould be a playwright in another
career, 'cause I mean, those are allthe things that playwrights think
(14:10):
about whenever they're writing a show.
It's brilliant that that's your approach.
That's what makes an image reallystand out, are the little teeny tiny
details that no one can think about.
Like the creator thinksabout little things.
To really create a moment.
(14:30):
There's someone out there who's eitherexperiencing that moment that you just
created, or they have experienced, orthey want to experience that moment that
you just created, and they feel so muchmore drawn and connected to that than
they would to just an average photo.
Well, it's like finding theethos, the feeling in any image.
(14:51):
It's like, what is whateverbrand trying to get across?
Are they trying to get across that?
Like this is a yogurt thatyou're eating on the go.
Is it a yogurt that you're, you'resavoring this beautiful like morning
brunch and having a yogurt with like abeautiful coffee, like in a beautiful.
Outdoor setting is it you're grabbingcoffee from Starbucks and it's all
(15:15):
about the drive-through experience,so there's like so many different
points that you can look at.
Something as simple as yogurt and you cantell a million different stories with it.
And so deciding like whatis our story going to be?
Or usually the brand telling uswhat the story is going to be and
then creating those little moments.
(15:37):
I think that is somethingthat's so beautiful about food
because you can't help but havean emotional connection to it.
It sustains us, it fuels us.
I mean there are certain people I'vemet who are like, I would drink all
of my calories and never eat anything,and I just think, what a boring life.
Yes, I want all the stories andI want all of those experience.
(16:02):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I see people like that and I'm like,so what do you do with your time?
I don't know.
I don't even know if we can havea conversation after this.. I
wanna ask you this, 'cause we'retalking about building a scene.
When you are building a scene withyour set stylist and you guys are
(16:23):
like thinking about storylines andwhat's happening in this moment,
how does color guide your decisions?
Or does it guide it at all?
I think sometimes color willguide it, color and texture,
like especially within a dish.
And a lot of times, like I will havea dish in mind, or from a set stylist
(16:47):
perspective, we may have to shootin a bowl that they have chosen or
that the client wants to showcase.
I work with a couple clients whoare like dishware and glassware
companies, and so we're liketrying to show off their product.
So it's almost less about the food.
And so in like those instances, we'll saylike, okay, this is kind of the story.
(17:12):
This is like where the setting is,what colors are going to really bring
out the colors in this dishware?
What's gonna compliment nicely?
But then I like to think about texture.
Shape a lot as well.
And so like how do you kind ofbuild the three together to showcase
the shape of a plate or a bowl?
(17:34):
Whether the bowl has a really deepwell, you might want to do something to
highlight that, or the facets in a glass,you may choose to do something more
translucent or more cloudy based on theway you want the light to shine through.
And so I think everything is abig collaboration between the
(17:54):
stylists, the food stylist, theset stylist, and the photographer.
And I love working in collaborationwith, with those people.
So it's always really fun tokind of creatively approach.
It's called the T tripod, thetrifecta, what are they called?
The trifecta?
Yeah, the trifecta.
(18:15):
You mentioned earlier that you hada minor in art and I got so excited
because I called it when I firstfound your website, I immediately
thought, oh, this is like fine art.
This belongs, like, her stylingis something that I would see in
(18:35):
a Dutch painting and like I justimmediately felt drawn to that.
'cause that's what I'm obsessed with.
So with that being said, is therean artist or art movement that
you secretly or not so secretlychannel whenever you're styling?
(18:56):
Sometimes I feel like I'm not intendingit, but it kind of turns out that way.
I love art history.
Art history was one of myfavorite classes in in college.
And then my color theory wasanother class that I just love.
And so I do think like drawing on,you know, artists that I love, I
wouldn't say there's one particularlike artist or like time period.
(19:20):
I mean, I love the Impressionists.
I love, I mean, Van Gogh is amazing, butI am just as obsessed with modern art and
photography and design and architecture.
And so I do kind of take like all of thoseinfluences and kind of pick and choose.
Also just like regular everydaypeople, I'm like the queen
(19:43):
of screenshotting things.
And so I will screenshot my heart away,like on Instagram or on Pinterest.
I obviously have like savedPinterest boards and saved Instagram
boards and things like that.
But I'll screenshot kind ofanything that inspires me.
And then when it comes time todo like a test shoot or something
(20:04):
that's a little bit more creative,then I'll pull some of those images.
It could be a book cover that Ilove or a storyline that I kind
of wanna follow in like food form.
So yeah, it's really fun to get todo like those very creative, more
studio art type projects alongwith everything else that I do.
(20:25):
What's something totally randomoutside of food that influences
the way you style a dish?
Oh gosh.
I would say it's kind of like connectedwith food, but I am part of a cookbook
club I've always loved cookbooks.
It's something like from a really youngage, I've always loved editorial like
(20:49):
magazines, Martha Stewart and Real Simple.
I was seven years old and liketelling my mom like, we must make
this Easter cake on Martha Stewart'scookbook, or like her magazine cover.
I was, I must make this.
And so I've always just like loveddoing things like from cookbooks.
(21:11):
And then I started this cookbook cluband that has really inspired me to
like style things in like a much morerelaxed way and like lived in way.
And I love just looking at cookbooksand how people like put them together
and what ingredients are, like theirmust have items in their pantry
(21:33):
and, and different techniques.
And so, I mean, I have probably overa hundred cookbooks and so whenever
we get together, I think that's oneof the most deeply inspiring things.
The three girls that I have thecookbook club with, one is a food
stylist, one is food photographer, andone is a producer for a food studio.
(21:54):
And so it's two food stylists,a photographer and a producer.
It's kind of like the perfectamalgamation of just like I have my
girls who like are just like some ofmy best friends and we get to cook and
then like I also my best friend sincechildhood, she and I love to cook and
like that is how we spend our time.
(22:16):
So it's definitely not something otherthan food, but enjoying food in like a
different way than just onset creatingan image I feel like just leads to
so much more joy around food, which Ithink just like bleeds into your work.
That's a lot of cookbooks.
Over a hundred cookbooks.
That's a lot of cookbooks.
(22:37):
I know.
It's a sickness.
It's a sickness.
No, no.
I'll not be cured.
You need more cookbooks.
Yeah.
One can never have too many cookbooks.
There's still a coupleblank spaces on my shelves.
So until those are totally filled.
(22:58):
My dream house is like wall towall books, and then on the other
side, wall to wall coffee mugs.
Oh, yes.
And then like a big old likewall space just for cookbooks.
Like I just want a giantwall space for cookbooks.
I love the idea of a cookbook club.
(23:18):
Whose idea was it?
It was technically my idea.
I had read an article years andyears ago about it and I was
like, this would be really fun.
And then I just started likepitching it to different friends.
And these three friends arejust kind of like the perfect
three people to do it with.
You know, we're all in the industry.
(23:39):
We all love food, we all lovesitting down to a meal together.
And three of us, well we've all workedtogether like at different points in
our careers and so we know, like wework really well in a kitchen together.
Claire, the other food stylist, she andI have been in a kitchen together, like
(24:00):
for, I mean, you could probably count uplike years at this point instead of days.
Laura is like the greatestorganizer in the world.
She's a producer, and then she also kindof produces us while we're doing it.
So she will say, okay, you'reworking on this, you're working
on this, you're working on this.
And then Megan, she doesn'thave as much experience in the
(24:24):
kitchen, but she's a great cook.
She is always taking photos ofour meal before we sit down.
Like she's always theone getting the shots.
She's like taking all the shots ofus, like, wow, we're prepping food.
And so we try to meetup like once a month.
It doesn't always work out.
And we'll choose a cookbook based oneither, like something that's coming
(24:46):
out that we're really excited about, or.
Or it's a cookbook that we'vehad for a lot of years and we
haven't made anything from it.
So like our first cookbook, which stilllike goes down in cookbook club lore,
was Andy Baraghani from Bon Appetit.
His cookbook, I think it's called likeThe Cook You Are or something like that.
(25:09):
It goes down in complete lore.
We kind of refer to it as like our Bible.
Like we say like what would Andy do?
We love, like the way heuses like tons of herbs.
And I would say it's like veryclose to like our personal
like cooking style and ethos.
(25:30):
But we've done like restaurantcookbooks, so we've done like
Bestia from LA and Heartwood,which is this restaurant in Tulum.
We've done both of their cookbooks.
We've done Molly Baz andAlison Roman, Melissa Clark.
So it's like a lot of heavy hitters.
And then, we did one withEden Grish Pan, I think is how
(25:55):
you pronounce her last name.
And her second book just came out.
And so we're already talking abouthow great the first one was and how
we wanna do the second cookbook.
Once we've kind of figured out a, abook, then we'll also decide like,
okay, what kind of time is best.
And so like we've done brunchcookbooks and done it like at brunch
(26:18):
time, but most of them are dinners.
We'll choose a person's house and allfour of us are comfortable hosting.
And so we'll choose a house,we'll choose a time, and then
whoever is hosting will have thatcookbook and go through and choose.
We try to choose between four and sixrecipes based on like how big they are.
(26:41):
Usually we'll try to do a protein, asalad and like two other vegetable sides.
And then if there's like a cooldessert or a cool drink that we
wanna try or like a cool appetizer,we'll like do one of those.
So we've made ice creams and sorbet andwe've, we made homemade pasta, we've
(27:02):
grilled, we've done all sorts of things.
And so it's just so fun, likegetting to try new things and then.
For example, like Andy Baraghanihad this scallop recipe that I know
Claire and I have both done likeiterations of in our own styling work
because we're just like, this dishwas so beautiful, I wanna recreate it.
(27:25):
Sometimes it's just trying a really greatdifferent dish that you might not think
you would enjoy or it's a different wayof preparing something and then that will
inform your work later down the road.
Oh my God, am right.
All right.
I'm flying to Cleveland.
I'm joining y'all's book club.
(27:46):
Yes.
Join us.
Join us.
I think I can handle once a month flyingback and forth for the cookbook club.
I wanna be a part of this so much.
It's so funny because like peopleask to be a part of it and we're
like, okay, significant others likearen't allowed to be a part of it.
(28:08):
You're not allowed.
But the significant others will popup at the end of the meal and you're
like, you can have the last of the foodafter we've all had like seconds and
thirds, then you can have food or like,we'll save a little dessert for you.
But like, that's it.
Except every year around theholidays we'll do one meal where
everyone will invite someone.
(28:30):
And so usually it's like asignificant other or a good friend.
And so then we'll like go really all out.
And so this past year we did a hotpot, like Szechuan Hot Pot, and we had
like tons of different like dippersand we made our hot pot base from
scratch and it was so epic and amazing.
(28:50):
It was very cool.
I mean we just love doing stuff like that.
We're very extra.
I love that though.
I love that though.
And what I, what I love is thatin addition to like doing, cooking
these recipes together, you arealso kind of doing like test shoots.
Yeah.
(29:11):
Everyone gets to practice theirtrade still, but it's done in a much
less like, stressful environment.
And, and it just, it reminds you, this iswhy I do this, this is why I love this.
Because of moments like this.
I also think moments like that, youget to break whatever rules that are
(29:32):
in place if there's such a thing andyou just get to play and experience.
So with that being said, what'sa styling habit or rule that
you secretly love breaking?
It's not a secret once you tell it though.
Just so you know.
When I saw this question, the thingthat I immediately thought of, there's
(29:54):
a client that I shoot for and they don'tlike seeing the ends of pasta noodles.
What?
This is so specific, butthey do like a lot of pasta.
It's for like a large restaurant chain.
And they have in like theirnotes, they don't like to see
the ends of the pasta noodles.
Like they think it lookslike too messy or something.
(30:16):
And this has been like, sinceI started with this company,
like it's always been this way.
And then the last shoot I hadwith them, they, they were like,
okay, we're doing Bucatini now.
We're gonna have to show some ends.
So you can tell that it's bucatinibecause Bucatini has like a
little hole through the noodle.
And let me tell you, I was sothrilled to expose like two
(30:40):
noodle ends in this pasta dish.
I was like, this is what I live for.
Just breaking those rules.
So that's of course the one that Icould think of, like right off the rip.
It's just like, oh yeah, those like littlesilly, little like brand guideline rules.
I'm like, okay, I'm gonnapush this just a little bit
(31:03):
and let me tell you, there is a lotof discussion about those noodles.
That's such a strange rule.
Yeah.
There's a lot of discussion onset about those two exposed ends.
So
I bet whoever like wrote the brandguidelines, they were like sweating
and they're like, oh my God, Ithink God, I am pushing this.
(31:25):
The,
We're seeing the ends of some pasta.
So it's like things like that whereyou just, this is when you really
have to laugh and say like, I lovemy job because this is the kind
of stuff that is just making youcrack up in the middle of the day.
Exactly.
(31:46):
And that cracks me up so much.
Do you think more stylists shouldtrust their gut over the rules?
And if so, why?
I think a lot of things come into play.
One thing is having like some trustbetween yourself and the client.
Like I wouldn't do that on my firstshoot with a client by any means
(32:10):
because they don't know me, theydon't know what I'm trying to do.
And so the first few times I'll playby their rules and then once they
get to know me, if there's somethingwhere I'm like, okay, realistically
like this cheese wouldn't pull or itwould act this way instead of this way.
In a real setting, you can start to havethose conversations with your clients and
(32:33):
be like, look, you know, you and I bothknow this isn't real, so like, let's try
to make it look a little bit more real.
And sometimes they'll be really open tothat and sometimes it's a conversation
between the photographer and youbefore you bring it up to a client.
But yeah, by and large, I think once youas a food stylist has more food knowledge
(32:56):
than someone in marketing for a foodcompany, they do start to like trust you
and trust your instincts with things.
Oh, for sure.
Has your relationship with rulesevolved as you've grown in your career?
Just in general, like my career is kindof like a big rule break in general.
(33:18):
Like I did not think I wouldbe doing something like this.
Every one in my family has had verytraditional careers and you know, have
had like a very clear like through lineof like, okay, we're gonna do these
five steps and then we're gonna havethis corporate job, and then we're gonna
(33:39):
have this corporate job until we retire.
And then you show up and you'relike, I'm a food stylist.
And they're like, what's that?
So you take photos of food?
And I'm like, no, no, no.
10 years later, no, I'mnot taking the photos.
No.
(34:02):
But it's really cool gettingto break those rules.
Now I do hope, like I inspire otherpeople to break rules and to break,
like kind of what they thought theywere going to do in their life.
I think it's so fun to trainnew people now and like bring
them into this industry.
(34:24):
So I'm kind of teaching other people tobreak the rules a little bit now, where
I have an assistant that I've workedwith for a couple years and he's a very
regimented guy and I think he easily couldhave gone down like a restaurant path,
but now he's in this different careerand he's like, I would never go back.
Like, this is so much more funand creative and you make better
(34:48):
money and you have better hours.
And I'm like, yeah, come to the table.
Sit down.
Let's have some fun.
Yes.
You mentioned about like yourcareer just being one big giant
rule break and how everyone in yourfamily has had traditional jobs.
I connected so much with that because inmy family it pretty much is the same way.
(35:13):
And I did the college thing and I gotthe traditional job and it sucked.
And then when I did get into freelancing,my mindset was like, well, what
do you have to lose at this point?
Like you already did thetraditional job, you didn't like
it, so what harm could there be?
And you can always go back to it.
It's always gonna be there.
(35:34):
Exactly.
It's always gonna be there.
I've had some friends that didtry freelancing photography and
they realized, this is not for me.
Like I love the creativity, but Idon't like the business side of it.
That's totally valid.
Like the inconsistencies withpaychecks, like having to kind of
spend some money to make some money.
(35:55):
All of those things.
A lot of people are not comfortablewith taking that amount of
risk with their livelihoods,and I totally understand that.
But when you're, I mean, at least likefor an assistant or for me, like I was
25, it was kind of like, I have nothingto lose at this point in my life.
Like, I'm gonna go down this other pathand if it doesn't work out, you know,
(36:18):
I have a degree I can fall back on.
But if I don't do this,I'm always gonna regret it.
And I'm always gonna think, what if.
You're always gonna wonder.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think what makes our millennialgeneration different from our
predecessors is that a lot of usdo follow that traditional path.
(36:42):
And we realize, A, it sucks and wedon't like it, but as opposed to our
previous generations, we didn't just,we're not just staying in this shit.
You spend the majority of your day atyour job, if you don't like your job
and you don't like the people that youwork with, that means you are unhappy
(37:03):
eight to nine hours of your day, likethat's your whole day of being unhappy.
And then you multiply that timesfive days a week, and then on the
weekends you're just dreading goingback to work the following Monday.
So it's like you're justconstantly unhappy and it's
like, why should you sit in that?
Why should you accept that?
And you're also bringing thenegative energy of not liking
(37:25):
your job into every evening thatyou spend with your loved ones.
It does tend to just feedthis like negative cycle of
like, I'm miserable at my job.
You're kind of just miserableto a certain extent.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're just walking with thisgray cloud over you, like constantly
over you, and without realizingit or intending to, you're putting
(37:48):
that over everyone else's heads too,and we're just not sitting in that.
I was like a sophomore in high schoolwhen the 2008 financial crash happened.
And so at that point, I was, no one,nothing is secure going and getting
this education, but there's no guaranteethat some corporate job is gonna
(38:09):
keep me even I could get laid off.
It's like the economy goes bad,like, and it is a risk being
in a job, a freelance career ifsomething happens financially again.
But I would rather risk that, andeverybody's gotta eat during COVID
when a lot of things went badly.
(38:31):
I mean, food companies were shooting crazyand so everybody's gotta eat all the time.
And those dollars keep gettingput toward those ad dollars.
Then CPG brands, they whew, theywere like throwing cash everywhere.
(38:51):
Yeah.
And so you might feel it for sixmonths, but then it's gonna rebound
and you might do even better thanyou would've in a normal year.
So, you know, you cannever really plan it out.
Folks who decide and learn aboutthemselves that they don't like the
the up and down nature of freelancingthat they need stability, I think
(39:15):
that's super brave of them to realizethat and to own that and go with it.
Because the up and downit really, it's stressful.
It
is.
Yeah.
It can be stressful and like when Italk to people who are like curious
about what it's like to be a freelancer.
And I tell them, you know, it reallyfeels every month is so different.
(39:39):
One month it's like nothing and thenthe next few months it's like feast.
And I got shoot, shoot shoots and then twomonths will go by and then I have no work.
And so it's like constantly just upand down, up and down, up and down.
Some years are better,some are like real scary.
You do have to like gasyourself up in those moments.
(40:01):
And when it's like a pang inthe soul when someone asks
you, Hey, how's business going?
How's work going?
And you have to say,
and so that is stressful.
That is a stressful thing.
Well I think it's also, we take ourjobs so personally too because it is
(40:21):
us kind of selling ourselves in a way.
When you do have those slow times.
It's very natural to be like, it'ssomething that I've done wrong when
so much of it is just like thingsare going on with whatever company
and they're like going in a differentdirection for like an ad campaign or
like, or there's like a company ishaving trouble getting a product and so
(40:44):
they're gonna push the job for a month.
But you just for some reasonthink like it is all me and I
fall into that trap so much.
It was definitely in 2023where I was really considering.
Asking myself, what is keeping me here?
What is keeping me in this place?
Out of everything that you've gonethrough, ups, downs, what part of this
(41:10):
career journey has stretched you the most?
It can be personally, itcan be professionally.
What was something you had to let go ofin order to like really step into every
new chapter that you found yourself in?
Honestly, the biggest thing that I'velearned is having like true confidence
in yourself and your abilities.
(41:30):
I am not a self-promotional person.
Like I hate it.
I get anxiety about sending an emailsaying like, I wanna work with you.
I do not like to promotemyself in any way.
And I'm very shy.
And so going into an industry likethis where so much of whether or not
(41:51):
you're successful is how much you canpromote yourself is such a big thing.
A big part of not feelingcomfortable promoting myself
was a self-confidence thing.
And I've gained so much self-confidencethrough this job, and especially now
that I am a lead stylist and makingall of the big decisions myself.
(42:15):
You learn to really trustyourself and trust your instincts.
That was something I really hada hard time with for a long time.
But I'll still have those moments oflike a little bit of doubt if like, I
have a, like a rough shoot or you'rejust like, okay, I did all of this.
Then something happened on the shoot andyou just didn't feel that great about it.
(42:38):
Also I have moments where it'shard to separate myself from that.
But in those times I've learned it'sbetter to push into my own creativity
and my own voice, 'cause usually if I'min like that mood of not feeling super
confident, it's usually from a pointwhere I'm doing a lot of commercial work.
(43:02):
So I'll like find a day or two in myschedule and I'll reach out to of photo.
I have a group of photographers that Iwould reach out to and say like, Hey,
would you wanna do like a test shoot?
And that really gets me out of my head.
It really allows you to get intoa very creative space where you're
(43:24):
only creating for yourself and forthe photographer who's with you.
Whenever I'm able to do that, I findit much easier to snap back into like,
oh, okay, I am, I am good at my job.
I do really enjoy thisand am good at this.
I just did a test shoot last week'cause I had some time free up
(43:44):
on my schedule and just like,let's just shoot some sandwiches.
Let's just do, this.
Wasn't anything crazy, but we did acouple different sandwich shots and
now we both have them for our poliosand we have something that we can push
on social media and that may lead towork down the road and it may not.
(44:04):
And if it doesn't, I stillfeel more fulfilled than I
did had I not done that job.
Katie, you were speakingsome gospel about confidence.
I was like snapping my fingers.
I was like, yes.
Yes.
Oh my God, yes.
Yeah, I just bow my hands down becauseconfidence is such a struggle for me.
(44:27):
And one of my goals for 2024 was to workon my self-esteem and to like build myself
up and fill my own cup and, and not lookfor external sources of fulfillment.
Because I realized that if I did that,if I relied on outside sources to feel
good about myself, that I would never,ever, ever truly feel good about me and
(44:53):
feel like I have anything worth offering.
So I love that you really touched on that.
It's also like when you do have a lagin work where like, I can look at my
calendar and be like, oh my God, I'mnot booked for the next two weeks.
Like, what am I gonna do?
And I just know myself.
I know my mind will just spiral thatbecause I'll see on social media
(45:16):
that other people at other studiosacross the country are working.
And I'm like, oh my God, but I'm not.
And so then it's like, okay, let mejust schedule a test shoot, because
then I'll still be in that creativemindset and I'll get a little something
out of it in the form of some images.
(45:37):
And then it's also just, yeah, not keepingyourself distracted enough where you're
not letting those voices like take over.
And I will also say it's,I am not a pro at that.
I. Two weeks ago, I was probablylike, everything is going to hell.
Like
I have those moments all the time andI'm acting like I'm some expert in
(46:00):
getting over it and I'm definitely not.
But I have learned having acreative outlet outside of
whatever job that I'm booked onis always a helpful thing for me.
So like gardening or having a cookbookclub to plan, all of those little
things help distract me in slow moments.
Mm, I love that.
(46:22):
I love that so much.
Oh my gosh.
I'm loving this conversation so much.
Me too.
Gosh.
Same.
I wanna close out this interviewwith asking for the kind of advice
that you wouldn't find on Google.
I mean, this is the kind of lessonsthat you only learn by living
(46:43):
it, building it, staying with it.
What advice would you give toa stylist who's talented but
struggling to get traction?
I know confidence is one of them.
What other advice would yougive to them in this moment?
So I think a big thing that's beenbeneficial in my career, I've worked
(47:04):
with this one studio in Cleveland anddone a quite a lot of work with them.
And one of the two owners would sit downwith stylists and he would go over their
portfolios and this is very much like backto my studio art days of doing critiques.
(47:24):
And so he would have you critique theirwebsite with their portfolio and he would
just go through each image and you wouldhave to say something that you didn't
like about every one of his images thatlike they are selling their studio on.
And then he would kind of do the same forme and like poke holes in my portfolio
(47:48):
of like, okay, I see you have thissplash here, but this splash could be so
much better if it was more exaggerated.
If you were to replace an image in yourportfolio, you should replace this image
and get a stronger image of a splash.
He would also help me think about theway that my portfolio was laid out and
(48:10):
the way images would flow into each otherand how you don't want a ton of overhead
images, one right after another, how youshould switch up the angle or throw in
a macro image or throw in a tablescape.
And that was so beneficial to me to notonly like look at my own portfolio, but
(48:32):
to tear someone else's apart because hiskind of point in it all was everyone has
what they like and your creating your owntaste by kind of tearing down our stuff.
And also he'll do the same with mystuff and he could point to my portfolio
and be like, okay, you have oneburger image and it's very commercial.
(48:57):
Let's get like a very editorial burgeron your portfolio somewhere where
it's more something you would see ina magazine or it's really exaggerated
and first of all, that you trust.
So I would go to like someone that youcollaborate with on a semi-regular basis,
just sit down with them and be like,Hey, can I take you out for a drink?
(49:20):
Or Can I take you out for a coffee andcan you just look over my portfolio?
I want to know what yousee when you look at this.
And then those people also have someof the best advice for a company
that you wouldn't have even thoughtyou should shoot or test for.
And they could see somethingin your portfolio and be like,
Hey, this image is really great.
(49:42):
Why don't you do a series andthen you can present that series
to this coffee brand, let's say.
Coming out with those little ways offinding ways to build your portfolio
and also finding ways to like almostpigeonhole yourself a little bit.
I would say like every food stylistkind of knows how to do everything,
(50:02):
but they excel in certain areas and solike some people may excel doing a very
beautiful chef driven tablescape andsome may do great with commercial burgers
or lasagna and like big cheese pulls.
Everyone has their own little subsetthat they are really, really, really
(50:25):
good at and where they find a lot of joy.
And so following those littlepathways can sometimes help
bring new opportunities around.
I love to shoot ice cream, and Iknow a lot of stylists hate to do
ice cream, and I find it so fun.
Can I bring you to Texas?
(50:47):
Yes, please.
Now that I know that you likestyling ice cream, I'm like, yes.
Yes.
Oh my God, yes.
I love fighting with dry ice andhaving things be the right temperature.
And I love the meltiness andI love like all the texture
you can create with ice cream.
None of my friends who are stylists,all of them are like, I hate ice cream.
(51:11):
Why do you like it?
You're so crazy.
Like crazy.
I'm like, I know.
I know.
I'm crazy.
But I do really like it
Because of the challenges thatice cream presents to you.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so you just have to like followthose little creative pathways.
If someone is at a standstill, havingsomeone come in that has an outside
(51:35):
perspective and has no skin in thegame for your career, they can say
like, Hey, this is what you're missing.
Follow this, do a test shoot around it.
And then if it's a photographerthat you reached out to, they might
also want to do that test shoot.
And so you can create those littleopportunities and then that will
eventually snowball into something bigger.
(51:56):
It's such a vulnerable thing toapproach someone and say, help me,
please help me see what I'm not seeing.
In photography school wedid the critiquing as well.
Like everybody put theirwork up and I loved.
It's like critiquing session.
I loved it because I'm like, please don'ttell me that this is a perfect photo.
(52:16):
Please don't tell me thatthis is a great photo.
Please don't tell me thatthere's nothing to be improved.
I don't wanna hear any of thatbecause that's not gonna help me.
But there were some classmates ofmine who absolutely detested it
and they took it so personal thatthey took it as a personal attack.
We were attacking their character.
And it's like, we're not, we're doingthis because we care about you and
(52:37):
we want you to like be successful.
And the ones who are like open toconstructive criticism and would
take everything that they were toldand apply it to their next shoot,
to their next project, they improvedas photographers and they're like
killing it right now in the game.
And the ones who are not open to it,who got defensive, who talked over
(52:58):
everybody who interrupted peopleand came up with excuses and took it
personal, they're doing the same shitand they're not like growing as artists.
Their work looks absolutelythe same since like day one.
Yeah.
Well, and I think as creatives,the last thing we wanna do
is be stagnant in our career.
(53:19):
Like we always wanna be moving, wealways wanna be like trying something
different and just asking for thoseoutside perspectives like allows you to
go in all of those different directions.
I'll also say, if you are workingwith a client on set, you're being
critiqued every day, every time thoseclients and they do not give a shit.
(53:40):
I mean I've been in like themost wild critique sessions
where you're like, say what now?
Like, do you want what?
And, and you're like, okay, we okay.
And so having like the opportunityto have kind of a nicer critique from
someone who like does care about yourcareer and, and who wants to see you
(54:03):
improve just as much as you want toimprove, I think finding those people
and that is a difficult thing to do.
I don't think everybody has that person.
Yes.
Find that person who can actually giveconstruct, 'cause that's the other thing.
There's a book that I, I have yetto buy, but I, I want to, and I
(54:26):
wanna read it, but it's like, howto give constructive criticism.
Lemme find the book.
Yeah.
It's like finding the rightperson to give you that criticism.
The freelance community in Clevelandis amazing and a lot of the photo
assistants and food stylists and, anddifferent people set stylists would
get together and we would do portfolioreviews of like 10 portfolios and
(54:49):
we would just put our websites up,like on a TV or on a big computer
and we would just go through them.
Or way back in the day when I was firststarting, some of them were printed
and you would lay them out like ona big table and then you would like
walk through and look and even if it's10 different people in your industry
who all work on these types of shootstogether, they will all have different
(55:13):
opinions and different knowledgeof different brands and different
photographers that they might workwith outside of however you know them.
And so maybe if a food stylist ishaving some trouble and like need some
traction, have five to 10 freelancepeople that you know from the industry.
They don't have to be super closely likerelated to you, but have like 10 people
(55:39):
to a coffee shop or have 10 people to aphoto studio or to your house and just sit
down and everyone will benefit from it.
And then you're also exposingall of those people to your work.
And so I think it's like alwaysbeneficial no matter what.
Yes, yes.
It's definitely withpeople that you trust.
(56:00):
It's definitely people that areartists in their own sense, and
they know what to look out for.
They know what questions to ask.
Those are the type of people that like youneed to surround yourself with, and you're
all there to like help each other grow.
So I love everythingthat you said about that.
There's like a couple of booksthat I read about constructive
(56:22):
feedback and how to give it.
Maybe just, this really comesfrom my like traditional job role.
I worked as a it was a glorified officemanager at a physical therapy clinic.
But you do the one-on-ones andthey tell you how you're doing
and where you can improve.
And you know, I had bosses thatwere wonderful about giving me
feedback, how I can improve in my job.
(56:44):
And then I had some bosses thatjust sucked and they were terrible.
And I'd walk outta that officeand I'm like, whatever bad
thing is meant to happen to you.
I hope it happens like today.
Like I hope it happens like yesterday.
Like that's how like shittyyou made me feel just now.
Well like talk about bad feedback.
When I was telling you about myfirst job where I had the boss,
(57:05):
I did, he would look at a photoand just be like, I don't like it.
And I'd be like, whatdon't you like about it?
And he'd just be like, I don't know.
And that's it.
And he didn't say anything else.
Oh my God.
And I would be like, do younot like the background?
Do you not like the plate?
Do you not like the way it's styled?
Do you not like the way it's photographed?
(57:26):
Do you not like the lighting?
And he'd be like, I just don't like it.
Try again.
Oh
my God.
That is frustrating.
And as like a 23-year-oldyou are like, Oh my God,
I need deeds.
Can you tell me something.
(57:46):
That would drive me insane?
Be like, okay, I need more.
Please don't click bait me.
Can you tell me anything sir?
We would be trying to likefit the photo shoots in.
Maybe we should send homeboy thatbook and or give him the cliff notes.
'cause we know he's not gonna read it.
I have one last question for you.
(58:06):
When you think about everything you'vebuilt so far, what are you most proud of?
Even if no one sees it?
I think the community that Ihave, I'm the most proud of.
I have some of the best friends inthe world from this job, and there are
people who like truly understand mein a way that like not many people do.
(58:29):
My best friend from childhood, yes.
But aside from that, I can text like10 people about like a napkin and
I will get 10 responses being pumpedabout some napkin that I found.
It's such a fun thing to have peoplelike get just as excited as you are
about something, like having creativepartners that I really trust that I
(58:52):
get to work with day in and day out.
That's not only like the photographersand the set stylists, but it's the
photo assistants, it's the retouchersand the producers and all of the
food signing assistants that I workwith and the other food stylists
that I get to work with as a team.
It is so much larger thanthan just a couple people.
(59:15):
You don't realize how many people andhow many jobs go into creating something.
And even clients like I havenow seen clients meet, fall in
love with someone, get marriedand have like multiple children.
And it's incredible that like you havethese relationships with people where
(59:35):
you see their lives evolve and yourlife evolves and it's something like you
don't necessarily see from the outside.
But it's the best part of my job, truly.
I mean, I get to work with someof my best friends and you can be.
We're all creatives, we're allextremely emotional people.
(59:56):
So like you can be emotional andlike get frustrated and you have
kind of a safe space to landwith people you really trust.
And I think that's just so beautiful.
And that's definitely my favorite partof the job more than anything else.
It's just the people Iget to spend it with.
Talking about you do this 40 plus hours aweek, you want to enjoy your job and you
(01:00:21):
wanna enjoy like who you spend it with.
And I'm so lucky that I get tospend it with the best people.
That would be my favorite thing.
I enjoyed this so very much.
I
did too.
This conversation justfilled my soul so very much.
I enjoyed it so much.
(01:00:41):
Where can the listeners find you, followyou, absorb your work and admire you?
So my Instagram is Kaitlyn m Hale.
I can't get rid of that underscore.
And my website is Kaitlyn m hale com.
It's K-A-I-T-L-Y-N-M, hale, HAL e.com.
(01:01:07):
Well, Katie, thank you so verymuch for being on the show.
This is so good for my soul.
I enjoyed this so much.
Thank you so much, Mica.
This episode is written and producedby me, your host, Mica McCook.
Like this episode, give us afive star review on Apple Podcast
(01:01:28):
and subscribe to the Savory Shotwherever you get your podcast.
Or follow me your host, Mica McCook,on Instagram at Mica dot McCook.
Or you can follow the podcast onInstagram at a Savory Shot podcast.
If you have any questions, comments, orwould like to be featured on the show,
(01:01:49):
email us at podcast@thesavoryshot.com.
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