069: Embracing the Creative Chaos with Ren Fuller

Embracing Creative Chaos in Food Photography

Hey friend, picture this: you're knee-deep in a shoot, sweat dripping, props scattered, and that one shot refuses to cooperate. Sound familiar?

What if embracing the mess unlocked your most magical work? In this episode of Savory Shot, we dive into building a creative life that fits you perfectly.

Meet Ren Fuller

Ren Fuller shines as a food and lifestyle photographer in LA. She photographed the stunning Mi Cocina cookbook in Mexico, trekked to Everest Base Camp, rocks climbs with ease, and raises her little one, whom she calls a professional mess maker. Her film background fuels her storytelling magic in every bright, playful image.

Episode Highlights

Ren shares raw stories from her dream shoots, like guerrilla beach sessions with laptops on rocks and stylists shaping sand. Learn to light with heart by studying real sunlight, golden-hour glows, and scene stories. She opens up on tough shots that nearly broke her, saved by team collaboration and bold moves outdoors. Ren empowers us with contract wisdom: demand full upfront advances, share daily proofs, and walk from bad deals. Discover freedom in ditching heavy cameras for vacations, nurturing non-competitive networks, and weaving motherhood into creativity. Her honesty inspires sustainable passion.

 

💬 Join the Conversation

Savory Shot Shownote: https://micamccook.com/guests/

Website: https://micamccook.com/podcast

Instagram: www.instragram.com/mica.mccook

Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesavoryshotpodcast

 

📣 Follow Ren Fuller

Website:www.renfuller.com

Instagram:www.instagram.com/ren_fuller Podcast: linktr.ee/photodump.club

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/renata-x-fuller

 

Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.

 

 

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Welcome to the 69th episode of theSavory Shot, a podcast about the art
and soul of working in food photography.
I'm your host with the most Mica McCook.
I'm a food photographer, visualstoryteller, and full-time survivor of

(00:22):
Austin's I 35 traffic overpriced fillattes, and conversations with Tech
Bros who say things like, Let's circleback to this topic, AKA, Austin, Texas.
I swear, I do love living in Austin.
Don't let my intro fool you.

(00:42):
Before we get into the goodstuff, I gotta take a breath
and say thanks, because letme tell y'all this podcast.
It's recorded between snack breaks,reshoots, and moments where I'm

(01:02):
questioning all of my life choices.
But y'all make it worthit every single time.
So to all the day oner's, theones who have been with me
since episode one dropped.
Thank you for being here, forlistening, for showing up, even when

(01:26):
I feel like a creative hot mess.
Who forgot how to pronounceISO, or is it ISO?
Or is it iso?
Who knows?
Tomato.
Tomato, eh,
Y'all, this show isn't alwayspolished or perfect, but it's

(01:51):
honest, and that's all I can ask for.
If this is your first time tuningin, welcome to the family, boo.
You are one of us now.
Get on the Hot Mess Express and kick back.
Now let's get into today's guest.

(02:12):
I'm joined by the wildly talentedRen Fuller, a food and lifestyle
photographer based out in LA.
She's trekked to Everest Basecamp, climbed rocks like it's no
big deal, and somehow still makestime to raise her little one.

(02:33):
Who in her words is aprofessional mess maker.
Ren's got a background in film anda brain built for storytelling.
Y'all.
Her photos, oh my gosh,her photos are beautiful.
They're bright, playful, real.

(02:54):
She captures the kind of momentsthat make you feel something.
In this episode, we explore what itreally means to build a creative life
that fits you, not the other way around.
Y'all, this conversation, itcracked something open in me.

(03:19):
I felt all of this, all of thisconversation felt so deeply in my heart.
But before we get into all that,goodness, grab your cocktails.
A pen, a paper.
Let's start the show.

(03:39):
Welcome to the Savory Shot, abiweekly show about the art and
soul of working in food photography.
I'm your host, Mica McCook.
Every other Wednesday I sit down tochat with professionals in the industry
so that you feast on only the besttips and strategies in the business.

(04:00):
Alright, y let's get started.
Ren, I wanna start off thepodcast by saying thank you
for being here, for joining us.
I am so excited to have you on the show.
So welcome to the Savory Shot.

(04:21):
Thank you so much forasking me to be on the show.
I'm very honored.
I wanna let the listeners know how Ifirst found your photography and it was
at the Austin Food and Wine Festival.
I've been going for a few years now.
I was in the gift shop and I found MiCocina by Rick Martinez, and I immediately
was just drawn to the color, to the dramaand the saturation and the texture and the

(04:45):
hands, and I was just like, ah, this isthe most beautiful thing I've ever seen.
Whenever I find a cookbook that I'mjust in love with, my first thing is I
look up who the photographer is becauseI wanna go and admire them later.
And that's what I did, andthat's how I found you.
I started following you onInstagram and, and I've just been
in love with your work since then.
Thank you.

(05:06):
What moment from Mi Cocina still livesin your, your bones, your brains today?
Oh my gosh.
I mean, this is a very good questionbecause I feel like the project as a
whole was just so special and I, I feellike, I remember when we were doing it,
I was like, I don't think I'm ever gonnaget a project like this ever again.

(05:27):
Like this is like, itwas like a dream project.
It's just like, an authorwho's incredible, like
recipes that are incredible.
It was a two week job, soit's like a lot of work.
It's abroad, it's in, we shot it inMatalan in Mexico, right by the beach.
I got super lucky because the stylistsassistance, they were all my friends.

(05:52):
So it was just a big friendgroup just hanging out for
two weeks, shooting together.
I mean, it was a lot of work.
Like I remember coming back fromthat shoot and someone was like,
oh my God, how was your vacation?
And I was like, well,it wasn't a vacation.
We worked like over a hundred hours.
But yeah, it was fun.
We worked like nonstop.
We just like, we landedand we just hit the ground.

(06:13):
We like didn't stop.
I think we had like maybe a day whereno one did anything, but I doubt it.
But I bet it didn't feel like workbecause you're with friends and
you're doing something creative.
It did though, like, you know, we did 10hour days, sometimes a little bit more.
What?
Five days a week for two weeks.

(06:34):
And then on the weekends, Rick took usto his friend's farm and we did outings.
But I, I was shooting, and then beforethe book started, the stylists were
all like prepping the prop stylist.
Nydia had to make all her surfaces there,so it was just nonstop and it was hot.
It was like very hot there.
So when someone's like,how was your vacation?

(06:56):
It's like, you come, do what Ido and let's call it a vacation.
Yeah.
But it was a really fun job.
It was really fun, hard work.
But I feel like a moment that I feellike encapsulates the feeling of
that whole project because cookbooksare, they're very low budget.
They can be very gorilla style whereyou're throwing things together

(07:18):
and making things work and doingthings minimally, not the way
that you would do on a big ad job.
And we had these shots that we wereplanning to shoot on the beach,
and so we got everything ready.
It was just me, the prop stylist,my assistant who helped me,
and the prop stylist, the foodstylist and her assistant.

(07:38):
And then the creativedirector was there too.
And then Rick, the author.
And so we all made our way to thebeach and we're just shooting these
like there's no food truck with arefrigerator, Caroline styling on a rock.
My assistant's like holding anumbrella over anyone who looks like
they're like about to pass out.

(08:00):
I don't have a digi tech, so mylaptop is literally like balancing
on one of those wooden cookbookstands or like the kitchen.
We brought that.
That was like balancing on a rockand like being leveled by my shoe.
It's like we were all in our bathingsuits 'cause we were like sweating.
The creative director was likestyling the sand with a feather.

(08:22):
Like it was just, it waslike, it was ridiculous.
Like it was such a funny scene.
We were such a scene on thebeach, but it was so much fun.
Like it was so much fun.
And we got really awesome.
I think we did five shots thereand two hours or something crazy.
Yeah, that was a moment that I feel likethat was like the vibe of the shoot.

(08:44):
It was just all hands on deck.
Just making it work and beinglike very happy with the result.
Oh man.
Now that I know the history behindthose shots, like it's gonna
make me wanna go back and lookat the book and be like, I know.
Yeah.
All the beach shots.
Yeah, it really stuck with me.
So I feel like the small cookbookbudgets are really hard and can be very

(09:08):
frustrating, but it also allows youto be pretty creative which I like.
Yeah.
You mentioned like being on the beach,and so how did Mexico's light and
place change your choices on set?
Well, actually, 95% of this bookwas shot in Rick's tiny little spare

(09:31):
room that's now his beautiful office.
Yeah, so we shot all of the recipesaside from those beach shots, were all
shot in this tiny, tiny little roombecause usually like food shoots, at
least like the cookbooks that I do isjust, it's easier to do them in a studio
because it's a controlled environment.
You need a kitchennearby, blah, blah, blah.
So yeah, all of those recipes wereshot in like a tiny, tiny room.

(09:56):
But I, as a photographer,I'm very inspired by light.
By real light.
And so I tried to emulate the lightthat was around me in Mexico, which
was just harsh, bright sun, reallydepended on the time of the day
that you would eat this recipe.
Was it like a morning?
Was it like an afternoon?

(10:16):
And then also because originally I wassupposed to travel with Rick to the seven
culinary regions of Mexico, and we made itto one, we started at Michoacán, which was
like the central Central Mexico region.
And that was at the end of 2019.
And then in 2020 we were supposedto do the rest of the regions.

(10:38):
And then of course, we all know whathappened in 2020, so we had to really
shift that portion of the book.
And so it became really obviouslyimportant for, and this is such
a team effort, the prop stylistreally tried to emulate prop wise.
What props that you wouldcome from certain regions.

(10:58):
And so all of that really played into,I guess like the choices that we made.
So it wasn't just lighting,it was propping to, because we
couldn't be in these places really.
We had to like bring those places tothe tiny room, if that makes sense.
I love that.
Like I'm just envisioning a whole teamin this teeny tiny room and it's like,

(11:21):
yeah, it's a small space, but lookat all this magic that we're doing.
Because I mean, when I look at, atMi Cocina and I look at the photos,
it just feels like I'm in a kitchen,I'm in a dining room, like I'm there.
Oh, I love that.
I'm so happy that came out.
Yeah.
Because sometimes you don't know, you'rejust, you're in this room for 50 hours

(11:42):
a week and yeah, sometimes you justlike forget the outside world exists.
So I'm glad that that comes out.
Yes, it really does.
What I love about cookbooks specifically.
It reminds me a lot of theater and howyou fall in love with characters and the
set and the costumes and the lightingand everything, and you're just taken

(12:05):
into that world and, and I feel that wayabout cookbooks is that it's not just
one shot, it's many shots and it's allof these different snippets of stories
and especially when the books are sopersonal to the chef and you're learning
about their childhood and their life andyou just envision being there with them
and seeing them in this environment.

(12:27):
So I just love, you touched on ita little on the beach images, but
which image took the most heart toget right to what finally worked?
This is a good question.
Books are hard.
You kind of struggle andyou hit little dead ends.
I actually was flipping through thebook, like refreshing my memory and as

(12:47):
soon as I got to page 280, this photo,this literally the shot almost broke me.
It was just like not working.
I was so frustrated.
I think it's the pork and oysters shotand it's on like a little ceramic pig.
Oh, that one?
Oh yes, yes, yes.

(13:09):
Yeah.
Like everyone was so excited about theceramic pig, like so excited and it's
like, it's super cute and so, but it'sawkwardly, it's like a small little
petite grill, but it's also big forthe surfaces that we were working with.
And so I like could not figureout the angle for it to work.

(13:31):
It was too big for the surface.
And am I shooting it straight on?
But you had to shoot it at.
But then if you shot at two overhead,you couldn't tell it was a grill.
It was like this whole thingand I was losing my mind.
And then finally I was, "Guys,I am just not feeling the shot.
It's just not working." And I thinkeveryone felt bad 'cause I could tell,

(13:52):
I was like kind of stressing about it.
'Cause I think Rick really wantedto use his grill and I, I wanted
to make that happen for him.
And so I think once I admittedthat I was struggling, everyone
was like, okay, let's take a pause.
Let's just look at our surroundings.
And then someone had the idea, I'msure it was Nidia, the prop stylist,

(14:13):
why don't we put this outside?
'Cause there's all this beautifultile like around his property.
And we were, there was like a tinylittle mini courtyard that wasn't
finished, but it had nice neutral tile.
And she's like, why don'twe put it out here and see?
How does that give you thespace that you need to at least.
Find your angle.

(14:33):
And I was like, okay.
I was like, yes.
So then I got my angle and likeliterally once the angle was there,
like everything came together, Nidiabrought in like a little plant that
was already out there peeking in.
And then Caroline brought in a littleplate of like already eaten oysters and
it really came together and it ended upbeing like a shot that I really love.

(14:58):
But it was like almostbroke me to get there.
But I think it was justadmitting, it's hard to admit
when you, you can't do something.
And the beautiful part about workingon set is it is such a collaborative
environment and even though it'syour job as the photographer to find

(15:19):
the angle and and create the light.
Like people have good ideas and Ithink it's important to admit when
you can't do something or you likecan't figure something out because
it literally was just taking like aminute break and just looking around.
And another idea popped up that Iprobably, 'cause I was so lost in that
moment of making it work, I don't thinkI would've come up with it myself.

(15:42):
Oh man, you definitely, I mean, youraised such a good point about leaning
so much on your team and not feeling likeyou have to shoulder all of everything.
It's like teamwork makes the dream work.
I'm such a firm believer in that.
Totally same.
And, I know for me, I'm like, look, mybrain just disappears during a shoot.

(16:06):
And some, what's a, what's an F stop?
What's a, yeah, what's a, what's a ISO?
What's this camera like?
Who gave this to me?
Yeah.
You can get like really lostin in the panic of a shot.
Yes.
Yes.
And it's so great that the tiniestchange is what kept everything going.

(16:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would feel flustered too.
And it's like, fuck, this isn't working.
Like it's not working well, it's also,it's like, yeah, it's, if you are
kind of in the mindset of like, oh,I have to use this prop and I have to
use this surface, and the two are notworking together, but you feel like
you have to do justice to the sceneand the props and everything like that,

(16:52):
and you don't wanna like fail and.
I got really in my head aboutit, but it all worked out.
It all worked,
And it's a beautiful shot.
Thanks.
I know, it's really cute here.
It's again, the little piggy.
Oh, and it's a little, oh,that's a beautiful shot.
Yeah, it's really fun.
This little pot of plant was already there

(17:13):
And I see why he loved that ceramic pig.
He's like, we gotta make this work.
He was right.
That's such a beautiful shot.
Yeah.
He like dragged that thinghome from wherever he found it.
I mean, that was a cool thing.
He did his culinary tour by himselfbecause he was already in Mexico.
So a lot of the images that are fromthose regions, more like the documentary

(17:36):
style photos, they're all his photos.
They were originally supposed to bephotos that I've shot, so he still
traveled to all these places andsourced props from all these places.
So he really helped bring allof these regions to his home.
It was very cool.
I love that.
I love that so much.

(17:58):
So yeah, it's like if a propwas very special, I was like,
we have to make this prop work.
Yeah.
It's like when there'sa will, there's a way.
Yeah.
And it has to happen.
And I can keep going about how much Ijust love the colors and it really, uh.
I mean, I feel like that's all Nidia.

(18:19):
Yeah.
She has such a way with, I loveher prop style just in general.
She has such a way with color specificallyand just creating like little vignettes
that I think are just so beautiful.
And she's so good at just picking justlike the right flatware, the right napkin.
And she really is so good attelling a story with her props that

(18:39):
I feel like that credit is aia.
Every shoot that I do, if I canbring a prop stylist on, I'm gonna,
because they find things that Idon't even know where to begin.
I didn't even know these things existed.
And I was like, what is this?
And so that's great that youexpress that, 'cause man.
I feel very lucky to be at thepoint in my career where I work with

(19:03):
stylists because they bring so much.
Like it's not the photographer'sshow, it's like everyone's show.
Like everyone brings so much to the table.
And I had just did a small project.
I'm gonna try to not say like who orwhat it was for, but I just did a small
project where I guess the creator ofthe project, it was their brand and

(19:27):
the person that was putting the shooton were like, here's your budget.
And I was like, okay.
Like I was like, do youwant me to estimate for me
and a prop stylist or like.
To figure out what canwork within the budget.
And she was like, oh no, I was thinking itwould just be you and the brand creator.
Like she's gonna be doing allof the prop styling because

(19:48):
she has like a whole brand.
Like she has a whole look and feel.
It's like a lot of it isbased around her home.
And I was okay and the budget waskind of awkward in the sense that it
was enough for me as a photographer.
It was enough for a prop stylist,but not enough for a prop budget.
Like, not even close.
But then on the flip side I was like,okay, well if I can't do a prop stylist,

(20:10):
then it was enough to hire two assistantsand I was a like between the three of us,
we can kind of like wrangle whatever propsthis creator has and kind of make it work.
And it like, I wasn't happy with howit looked because this could have been
so much better if we had an actualstylist who does their job well.

(20:33):
And I was like, no shade on the crater.
Like they tried really, really hardand I think they did their best,
but I don't know, I just feel likea professional stylist for a reason
and they bring so much to the table.
And when you don't have that person,it just doesn't feel like, it
doesn't just like drive it home.

(20:54):
And it's funny, I was just like,oh man, like I haven't not worked
with a stylist in so long and Itook the job anyway because it's
2025 and it's been a hard year.
And I was like, oh God, likeI remember I have to really
put my foot down about this.
It's just not the kind ofwork I wanna be creating.
So that was good learning experience.

(21:15):
I wanna take it to lighting becausewe, we touched a little bit earlier
about it and what I admire so muchabout your photography is just
how you play with light and howyou incorporate it into your work.
And it's so much part of the compositionand I'm just like, oh my God,
Thank you.

(21:36):
She's so talented and I love that.
So I watch this video about keepinga binder of lighting diagrams, which
I don't do, but now that I thinkabout it, I'm like, I should do that.
Because there have beenlighting situations where
I'm like, this was wonderful.
And like you went to film school,I'm sure that you have a background
with creating lighting diagrams.

(21:59):
Oh my gosh, it's so funny.
My film school education barely playsinto, because what with film school,
you're lighting with continuous lighting,so it's very different with photography.
I am mainly lighting with strobes.
Like 95% of the time if I'm doinga video stills combo, then I will

(22:20):
get into continuous lighting.
But yeah, I actually don'tkeep diagrams or anything.
And I think because my lighting isreally inspired by the time of day of the
story that the photo is trying to tell.
So for me it's like, it's veryimportant to know if it's a food.

(22:40):
If it's a recipe shot, like I wanna knowwhat time of day is this dish eaten?
Is it in the morning oris it in the afternoon?
Is it like end of day?
Because the lighting is gonnabe completely different.
Is it in the summer?
Is it a summer dish?
Is it a winter dish?
Is it in an area like Mexico whereit's bright and sunny all the time?
Or is it in Seattle where it'slike overcast most of the year?

(23:02):
So I feel like those are thequestions that I have to ask when
I'm creating my idea for the light.
I think that's why I don'thave the diagrams is because
I'm not just like repurposing.
I mean like of course I have like mygo-to like, oh I'll, if I wanna do bright
and sunny, this is how I'll start it.

(23:23):
But I feel I like to light with alot of intention and I'm not just
lighting it for lighting's sake.
Yeah.
So do you ever just look at lightand just study it and look at it and
that kind of helps you determine.
Yeah, I spent a lot of time sittingoutside looking at things, looking

(23:44):
at how light hits a certain colortemperature, actually, like if I had
to pick a favorite time of day, it'skind of like that late afternoon, not
quite early evening, but getting there.
'Cause the light turns just likethis really beautiful golden color.
So if I'm like trying to emulate thaton set, like I'll use CTO and like mix
a little bit of CTB because the shadowsare blue, tend to start cooling off.

(24:09):
You know, it's just like I do spenda lot of time sitting outside and.
I just really love looking at light.
Like I love shadows, I love dapple,like I love all of that stuff.
And that's another thing isare we, is this a picnic scene?
Are we under a tree?
Like should we have dapple here?
Because it's like a specific, I thinklighting really needs to add to the story

(24:31):
of like the scene that you're creating.
So yeah, I mean, like, I have like mygo-to ways to light, but I, I feel like
everything is usually a little different.
Like I'm always kind of likemoving things around based on the
dish or the scene or the frame.
But my assistants will make diagrams.
So like if I am working with a leadassistant who's gonna be spearheading

(24:56):
the lighting because it's a bigger shootand I'm dealing with a client, I will
tell them, him or her, what I like orwhat I want to make happen and where
I'm envisioning the light coming from.
And then oftentimes.
They'll send me diagrams of what they'rethinking and they're like, oh, does this,
is this kind of what you're thinking?
And I was, yeah, like, that looks great.

(25:17):
So that diagram is helpful for them, butI don't usually like provide a diagram.
Yeah.
That's such a great idea.
And I mean hearing you talkabout like what you look for
whenever you're looking at light.
Like I just, I think about likelooking at your website and your social
media and I'm like, I can see that.
Oh, oh, that makes me really happy tohear because I feel like lighting is, I

(25:40):
feel like that was a really big insecurityfor me starting out as a photographer.
I was really afraid of artificial light.
Like anytime I had a client, I likepushed natural window light because
it was like my security blanket.
But then you get to a point where youreally can't depend on a window or like

(26:00):
an outside space if the client reallywants a specific like look and feel.
And it was very scary to me tomove away from natural light.
And now it's funny 'cause now I feellike I wanna work my way back to it.
'Cause I think it's really nice tohave the freedom to shoot wherever
and not over complicate it withlike, all of the modifiers and stuff.

(26:24):
But yeah, it's really about likestudying the light that you wanna create.
I did a lot of pool, uh, like an image oflighting that I really liked and I would
try to recreate that light myself, notin like a, oh, I wanna copy this photo.
It was like an exercise of can I makemy photo look like the lighting so I can

(26:46):
understand how that lighting was created?
And everyone also lights differently.
You can light, you can have a look thata photographer, three photographers
will all approach in different ways.
They'll use different modifiers.
They'll, they'll like use differentkinds of strobes they might not
use, you know, whatever it is,everyone does it differently.

(27:08):
So it's just about figuring out how toget the look that you are happy with.
What you said about how photographersapproach things differently.
Like it reminds me of, uh, photo school.
We were all given the same parametersof like the assignment, you know,
white on white, black on black.
Like we had different assignments and itwas interesting to see everyone how they

(27:34):
were lighting things and knowing what notto do in some of the lighting situations.
And then seeing someone dosomething and go, Ooh, I'm
gonna do that in my next shoot.
But I love your idea or yourhabit of just looking at light.
I think I could do that a little more.
Yeah.
'Cause photography is this funnything where if you're just shooting

(27:57):
for fun, like you just capturethese moments that are like magical
and work and you're just, wow.
Like sometimes you gotten photosjust for fun and I'm like, I don't
know if like, I could recreate this.
It's just, it was just like a moment.
But it's your job as a photographerto recreate, I feel like on
ad jobs, creative directors.

(28:18):
We'll create these really thoroughdecks where they have a really specific
look and feel and they have like allthe reference images to kind of show
like the mood that they're goingfor and it's your job to bring it.
I think everyone can be, Ican be way more observant.
My husband's always like, how areyou a photographer if you don't
notice like these things around you?

(28:39):
But I think I just like, my mindjust focuses on really specific
things and lighting is one of those.
Whenever I travel, I love walkingaround and just like looking at
light, like falling through like allthe different times of day on the
architecture and all of that stuff.
So that's just like something thatreally speaks to me that I think
has helped me in my career, I guess.

(29:01):
You mentioned earlierabout recording moments.
I actually have been like, wanting tokeep my phone out of my hand more often,
but I still want a camera, but I don'twanna take my work camera with me.
And so I, I actually boughta, a small Sony ZVE 10.
I feel like I'm cheating on my Canon.
It is the weirdest, like I point myCanons away and I'm like, don't look.

(29:25):
Girl, have that affair.
Have that affair.
I'm like, don't look at it.
It's just a friend.
Like, it don't mean nothing.
Like you're my workhorse.
You know?
I honestly, I stopped takingmy work camera around.
It's been years.
They're heavy.
They're like, it drawsso much attention to me.

(29:47):
It's like the smaller, the better.
I actually just came across, I justgot an ad for this on Instagram and
I'm like, I think I'm gonna buy this.
It's a $70.
It's called a Camp Snap.
It's a screen free digital camera.
Oh my God.
I'm gonna buy it too.
Yeah, it's like a film camera, butthen you don't have to like develop
the film and you don't have to worryif the film's gonna look like shit.

(30:10):
The beauty of the phone, becauseeverything does eventually like go on
Instagram or like what some platform.
It just became such a hassle tolike load the card and do the edit.
I do like how instant a phone is.
So I'm like constantly like going back andforth of like, I go through waves where

(30:31):
I'm just like shooting with a muralist andthen I go through waves where I'm like,
I'm just not even gonna bring a camera.
I'm just gonna have my phone.
Like I went on my first vacationin my entire photo career life.
So I was, I've been shooting for, I wannasay like maybe around like 10, 10 years
or so, and maybe more like 10 to 12 years.
And I just went on a trip a yearand a half ago and it was the first

(30:55):
time ever I did not bring a camera.
And I like legit like asked all myfriends, I'm like, is this crazy?
Is this crazy that I'mnot bringing a camera?
And someone was just, well,it's your Fuji, like it's so
small, just bring it anyway.
And I was like, no, I don'twanna bring my camera.
I don't wanna bring my camera becausethen I'm gonna take it really seriously.

(31:15):
You become photographermode, it just, it changes.
You become photographer mode.
So I didn't bring it.
I just had my phone andit was very liberating.
So no regrets.
Like you.
No regrets.
I had a great vacation.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I wanna tail into cookbooks andyour experience with cookbooks.

(31:41):
And the first thing I wanna ask is, whatis something that photographers should
insist on before they do a cookbookor when they get a bid for a cookbook?
What would you say that is?
So most publishers will offer whenyou're estimating, when they like send

(32:04):
over their version of the contract.
Like say you like did an estimate andthey agreed on $50,000 or whatever,
then they're gonna send their contractand they're gonna be like, we're
gonna pay you in three installments.
And oftentimes it's likebroken up into thirds.
So what's like a third of 50 grand?
I don't even know.
I can't do math very well.
It's like something between like$15,000 Anyway, whatever it is.

(32:27):
But say it's like a week or a two weekshoot, like that $15,000 is not gonna
cover everything that you need to spendmoney on to get that shoot off the ground.
And so like the biggest oversightthat I think publishers have is
not budgeting for a studio, butoftentimes you do need a studio.

(32:47):
Like unless an author's likea celebrity and they have a
big house with a big space.
Most normal people don't havea home that can host a two week
long cookbook in their house.
Like it's just not comfortable for anyone.
And so I think like the one thingis, is pushing for the budget that
you actually need to get the amountof shots they need off the ground.

(33:12):
But the biggest thing is in advanceand I feel like it's like rewriting the
contract to make sure that you get themoney upfront so you're not spending any
of your own money on this project becauseyou don't owe anything to these people.
Like why would you put money?
And I did that like for the first coupleof years it was always so stressful.

(33:33):
'Cause you have to likefront all this money.
You are hiring crew that are usually onlike a net 30, but the contract says that
it won't send you, it won't like send, Iforget what like the second payment is.
It's usually like afterreviewing the images.
Within 30 days they'll send you the money.

(33:55):
But by then, like the shoot's been donefor maybe like a week or two weeks.
So like you have to pay your team.
And I remember I just thoughtthat's like the way it was.
And there were a few shoots that Ijust had to pay out of pocket to like
cover the prop stylist and the budget.
And depending on where you're in yourcareer, like just don't have that money.

(34:15):
But even if you do have that money,it's not your job to front it.
Like it's just not your job.
So now the biggest, I actually almostlost a cookbook and I was okay with it.
Like I was at a point in my careerwhere like I was like, I do not need
this book for it to like put thismuch like financial stress on me.
And it was a big book.
It was like the budget was like 90 grandand it was, which is like, sounds like

(34:40):
a lot, but it's not, it's not that much.
You're still like pinchingpennies everywhere.
But we had to rent a studio for 14 days.
I think the advance wassomething like $20,000.
I forget.
It was like a low enough advance that itjust like wouldn't cover my upfront costs.
And I was, I think I had to, ontop of the advance also front, like

(35:02):
15 grand or something like that.
I was like, I'm not gonna do this.
Like it's not okay.
Like this is a big publisher.
It's a big author likeyou have in advance.
Like pay me so I can getthe shoot off the ground.
And it like turned into this huge thing.
And you could keep this becauselike I feel very passionate about
this, but like the author's lawyerwas just like, this is not okay.

(35:23):
And I was like, okay, fine.
Like I'm sure you could find someonethat's like totally fine fronting this
money, but I'm not, I have a business,I have to pay people by a certain time.
I'm not putting my business onthe line just to do you a favor.
I don't know who you are.
I've never worked with you.
Like why would I do you this favor?
And it like turned into this big thing.

(35:44):
The publisher got re-involved 'causethey were just, what's the problem?
Like why isn't this contract being signed?
And I was like, thiscontract doesn't work for me.
And she was like, shedid a really nice job.
She like really like listened to me.
And she was like, okay.
Like I hear what you're sayingbut we don't get this pushback
from other photographers.
And I was, that's too bad.

(36:05):
That's too bad.
Because like no photographershould be putting their personal,
we are a small business.
Like we are creativesjust trying to get by.
We're all like, therates already like suck.
Like, you know what I mean?
It's just no photographer should beputting their personal savings on the
line for a project and then waitinghowever many months to get reimbursed.

(36:28):
Like, it's just not cool.
It's just not cool.
And I was like, I really appreciateyou pushing me for this project.
Like.
I would love, love, love todo it, but I just can't, I
can't agree to this contract.
I'm so sorry.
I hope you understand.
And they reworked the contract.
It's possible to rework a contract,but I like had reached a point where

(36:49):
I was basically totally fine walkingfrom it because I, I felt strongly,
again, even if I could have paid for it.
And I feel like at that time, like workwas going really well and I probably
like could have like, done it without.
It was just like the fact of the matter.
I was just, this is justnot a cool practice.
And I feel like that's a verycommon thing with cookbooks.

(37:12):
And I think photographers arejust so eager to do a project
that they're, they just do it.
They just like suck it up and do it.
And then I've been in that situationwhere you're just like waiting
like, okay, you're like, okay,I'm gonna front this money, but
I should be paid within 30 days.
What if that payment's late?
What if you have to pay your creditcard off before like the payment comes?
Are you really comfortabletaking that financial hit?

(37:36):
I mean, that's what shocked me.
Yeah.
And if you're doing like multiplebooks at once, it's like, where do
you think this money's coming from?
And it's frustrating because it'salso coming from like a larger
corporation that does have the moneyto provide comfortable environment
for the people that they're hiring.
Like I just think a lot of shit fallson the creative people that I wish

(38:01):
like more people pushed back on.
And I mean, like I think a lot ofpeople in like the cookbook, like I
think oftentimes the author usuallyagrees to like an installment plan.
And so they might not have the moneyto like cover the expenses because
they haven't delivered whatevertheir portion is to receive the
next sum of lump sum of money.

(38:21):
So I think it's just like there's a lotof like misinformation and like lack
of communication that leads to this.
Like the shoot's almost likethe most important part.
Like you can't have abook without the shoot.
I mean, you could, there's definitelysome incredible books that have
no photos and they're fine.
But yeah, it's frustrating.
And I think one of the biggest differencesbetween cookbooks and like ad jobs

(38:43):
for example, is for like an ad job.
When you're bidding on it, mostphotographers or their agents
will ask for the advance is ahundred percent of the expenses.
So basically you get this lumpsum of money because no producer
is gonna put the production ontheir personal bank accounts.

(39:04):
Like they're just not gonna do that.
And so that's like a standard that ismet in advertising jobs and I don't
understand why it's not met anywhere else.
Like editorial is just harder.
I mean, it should be.
Yeah, it should be.
The way that you explain it.
It absolutely should be.
I wish that I had done that withthe cookbook shoot that I did.

(39:28):
'Cause there was just so manythings that I didn't anticipate.
And one of them waspaying for the food cost.
I didn't think about that.
And that added up.
Yeah.
Really fast, really quick.
Yeah.
And I, I know to charge for that.
Like, I'll do, I think it'ssomething like $70 a day per

(39:48):
person on set for X amount of days.
And that's the number.
And people are like, oh, can you,'cause I have, you know, I have to
feed people breakfast and lunch.
And sometimes they're like,can you do less than that?
And you're like, no, not in this currenteconomy where like, everything's an
in cost, an insane amount of money.
So I like stay firm with that.

(40:10):
If they ever throw any, oh, thisperson's gonna join the set.
Okay.
Didn't estimate for, for thatperson to be eating on set.
So I'll send you the finalbill and I have all of that.
That all has to be likespelled out on your contract.
Anything that you're spending over, youhave to have a conversation about it.

(40:31):
And then there's sometimeswhere I like notice that we're.
I think on the last shoot that I did,the author's agent ended up coming
for a couple days, but I noticedthat one of the people like was
an, or like was ordering somethinglike small for breakfast or lunch.
I just noticed that we were under inour food budget and I was, I bet it's

(40:52):
not gonna be a big deal if this agentorders one or two days, it's fine.
So I didn't bring it up andit ended up being fine, but I
like did the math a little bit.
I was like, is this gonna throw me off?
'Cause if it was, I would saysomething, I'd be like, I didn't
estimate for this person to be here.
Like, so well, we'll be adjusting that.
Yeah.
I will not spend a cent until, andlike there's times where estimated

(41:16):
for a specific studio and like usuallymost publishers are really good.
Like once you sign the contract,they'll send the advance
because that like locks it in.
But there's been times wherelike the advance isn't coming,
the advance isn't coming.
And I'm like, guys, like I'm not, Ican't book the studio until I have
money sitting in my bank account like.
We're gonna lose the studio andthen it's gonna, I got you the

(41:36):
cheapest studio that exists.
If it gets booked up, we're gonnahave to go to the like next available,
which might be like a lot more money.
And then that usually getsthem, they're like, yeah, okay.
We're wiring it to you, like, But,yeah, no, like I will not spend a cent
until I have money from the publisheror the author, whoever is doing it.

(41:56):
Yeah.
And like with paying the crew, Ifeel like for, if it's like a longer
shoot, obviously the crew can besomething like $50,000 of the budget
and I just make sure that there'slike language in there basically.
I think a lot of publishers are likepretty firm on not sending the second

(42:18):
installment until they see some work.
I think in the past I used to be like,well, I can't send the work until
I'm done the shoot because I haveto like sit on my computer and edit
and like make sure it looks good.
And now what I do is I just, I setup a Dropbox and I send the link
to like everyone that's involvedin the book and I use Capture one.

(42:39):
I don't use Lightroom, but I'm sureLightroom does something similar where
I set up the processing and when we getthe shot, I process it out and it goes
into the folder and I'm like, you haveto follow along throughout the day.
Like confirm that you'vereceived it, confirm there's no
changes that need to be made.
Like if you see something that'snot working for you, like I need to

(43:00):
know that day so that we have timeto like incorporate those changes.
And I count that Dropbox link.
That's the first day is whenthey reviewed the photos.
And so then I send my invoiceimmediately so that I have it by
the time I have to pay the team.
Now you don't play around with that.
You're like, hoo, there's that.

(43:21):
Shoot,
I don't fuck around.
I mean, not when, not on like thebigger shoots where it's like, I feel
like I just did like a two day shootand I did end up like fronting so many.
But I've worked with apublisher so many times.
Something just happened whereI think the invoice got like
someone missed it or whatever.
And I didn't have the secondportion of the invoice in time,

(43:43):
which was like the crew payment.
And I was like, whatever, it's a twoday shoot, I'm just gonna pay it.
Like I know they're good forit, but it was only 'cause
it was like a two day shoot.
It was not the end of the world.
But if it was for like a weekor two weeks, like hell no,
I'm not fronting that money.
Like no way.
So with the shoots that you've donefor cookbooks, what is a a hard lesson?

(44:06):
You'll never forget from that moment,from, if you can dwindle it down to one.
It honestly kind of ties into this.
It's bringing up any issue right away.
The first cookbook that I did, Ijust assumed that everyone knew
photographers worked on a 10 hour dayand I didn't have that in my contract.

(44:29):
And the authors that I were wasworking with, they chose to like
food and prop style themselves.
And because the food stylist was that,it was her book, so like she obviously
like knew how to prepare the food,but like for prop styling, like it
was very slow in that department andwe were constantly wrapping like an

(44:50):
hour or two late and it was a two weekshoot and like halfway through it I
was like, fuck, like it's added up toa full extra day at this point of work.
And it was like 10 years ago.
So I was, I was like young and likereally insecure and I was so afraid
to say something and then by thetime I finally did, she was like,

(45:11):
well, why don't you tell me sooner?
Like I can't just pay you likean extra like day or two of work.
And I just had to like,that was a hard lesson.
I was like, I should have one.
I should have specified that inthe contract there's OT and two,
if I hadn't, I should have justlike mentioned it right away.
So now I'm just, I'm nota confrontational person.
Even now, even though like I runa business or whatever, I hate

(45:35):
confrontation, but I just have,I like force myself to do it.
I just have to do it because it'sjust to protect myself and my time.
Otherwise, there's also likeresentment that comes out and then
you start getting like an ugh.
It's just like a whole thing.
That was a bad lesson.
I'd like to say that I ama confrontational person.

(45:55):
Good.
Except when it comes with clients.
Okay.
Not good.
When, when it counts.
Yeah.
When I really need to be.
I'm not, and it's, I don't want anyunpleasant feelings and I've had to like
force myself to say, okay, do you wannahave the uncomfortable conversation
now when you can do something about it?

(46:16):
Or do you wanna have it down the roadwhen you can't go back in time and fix it?
So,
Yeah.
And it's always less uncomfortablethe sooner you say it, like the
sooner you say it, like the quickeryou can resolve it and move on.
But then like, if you wait untillike everything's festering, it just
becomes like a much bigger deal.
So I just try to like voice everything.

(46:38):
I really try.
My contract has modified over theyears just based off the lessons that
I've learned where I'm just like,okay, didn't realize I had to spell
this out in painstaking detail, like.
There's a lot of stuff on there that justcomes from like the experiences that I've
had or the bad experiences, essentially.
It's like you make a littlenote and you're like all my anti

(46:59):
shut to my contract later on.
Yeah,
yeah.
Like there was, I know like a lot ofpeople put in this like force majeure
type of C clause in their contract,and I always felt like that was like
so intense sounding and I was, nonatural disaster is ever gonna happen.
And then during the pandemic, I was ona cookbook shoot and I got COVID and we

(47:24):
had to cancel the last two days of theshoot and we were in a studio and I sent
an email to the publisher and I was like,we're gonna have to like reschedule it.
Like can you guys send an extra$2,000 so I can like rebook the shoot?
And they're like, that's not on us.
Like, we sent you the budget and I waslike, well, in that case then, if I have

(47:46):
to do it at my house, it's just gonnabe me and the food stylist and the prop
stylist, and like, no one else is invited.
The author can't come.
Like, no one can come.
And, and they were like, oh, okay.
Okay.
Like, we'll see what we can do.
They're like, no, we're just kidding.
But then it, in the end, it endedup being the studio manager did us

(48:07):
a solid and was just, you know what?
I'll just give you two dayson a weekend later this month.
Don't worry about it.
And she just, I mean, youknow, everyone's human.
Like everyone knows that.
It's like hard time.
And so it all worked out.
But yeah, that was, ever since then,I was just like, okay, I do have to
have that clause in here because thatresponsibility shouldn't fall on me.

(48:28):
No.
You can't help that.
You got COVID.
So I wanna close thisinterview by talking about.
Photo Dump, your podcast.
What have you learnedabout yourself as a host?
I think without sounding likeself-involved, I feel like the

(48:49):
biggest thing that I've learnedis how to be a better listener.
I mean, I think we can all be betterlisteners, and I'm not saying I'm a
great listener, but I do feel as someonewho's interviewing, I think it's easy.
Like, okay, for example, there was this,so long ago Alec Baldwin had a podcast.

(49:09):
Here's the thing.
This is like back in the day andlike I was a fan of Alec Baldwin.
I thought he was super funny and hehad like great guests on, but it was,
he had these really interesting peopleon, but it was all about Alec Baldwin.
Like it's just like anytime theyanswered anything he'd be like, oh yes.
Like that reminds me of the time whenI was on set and like this whole,
and he like goes into this wholething and I to like irk me so much.

(49:33):
But it was also like kind of entertaining.
And I noticed, like I had thattendency when we first started.
'Cause we started it as like, wewant it to be really conversational.
We want it to be like just to feellike a group of people talking.
But even when you're talking withyour friends, I noticed, like once I
started paying attention to it, it'slike oftentimes I'm just like waiting

(49:54):
to say my thing instead of just likelistening to what the person has to say.
So I feel like especially once westarted bringing in a photographers
where we wanted to hear like reallyspecific parts of their story.
I have to like keep myself fromputting like my story in there
'cause it's like it's not about me.
And then also with the editing, thetalking over each other was very hard.

(50:19):
'cause I was doing our editing inthe beginning and Jennifer and I were
constantly talking over each other.
And then I had to edit thatout because it was hard to hear
what was actually being said.
And so just by the editing processI was like, I really need to let
people finish their sentence.
And if someone goes in a differentdirection, you don't have to interrupt

(50:43):
them to like get your point in.
Sometimes there's just not timeto get your point in and it's kind
of just like picking and choosing.
I don't know if that like makes sense.
It's helped me.
No, no, no, no.
That makes perfect sense.
That makes perfect sense.
And it's like there are times whenI've caught myself doing that too.

(51:03):
I have to catch myself and go,all right girl, mute yourself.
And I mean, I thinkit's just human nature.
I think people just wanna be heard.
I mean, I think we all have thattendency, but it's interesting
when you actually listen toyourself and you have that option.
'Cause most people aren't listening tothemselves, like have conversations over

(51:24):
and over, so it's just gonna keep going.
That was kind of like afrustrating thing to learn.
And then I feel like we haven'trecorded in a while so it's come back.
But I hate how much I say likeand I feel when I was editing,
it was just so apparent thatI did make a conscious effort.
To say like less, but now it'sback because we haven't recorded

(51:48):
in a while with those filler words.
They're the worst, aren't they?
And it's weird when you're kind ofself editing as you talk, but when
you're making an effort to not usecertain words, you actually speak
slower and you can be more thoughtful.
So anyway, I feel as though I've learnedjust how to listen and, and attempt

(52:08):
to communicate a little bit better.
That's such a great answer.
So now that you are pickingepisodes back up, what has that
been like bringing the podcast back?
Oh gosh, we are actually,we took another break.
It's an interesting, gosh.
I mean, you know, it's, this is like apersonal project and it's hard when your

(52:31):
real job takes you away and you're busy.
I have a co-host, Jennifer Chong.
We're both working photographers, sobetween the two of us, our schedules
don't often line up and sometimes it justreally starts to feel like a lot of work.
And I'm a semi recent new mom, likemy daughter's 17 months old and,
and then when we started, Jenniferwas in like a brand new mom.

(52:54):
So I feel like we kind of pickup this, each other's slack.
I think we really understand when theother person just like can't bring it.
And so if we have the ability, wepick up the slack, but eventually
it just like certain parts ofthe year, it just gets crazy.
And we picked it up this year.

(53:15):
We, it was like a really slow start to theyear, so we're like, we have so much time.
We knocked out like eightepisodes or something like that.
Not like anything crazy.
I think like over the course of liketwo to three months we knocked out
eight episodes and we like to bankstuff because Jennifer really likes
to release things on a, like if we saywe're gonna release every other Tuesday,

(53:37):
we're gonna release every other Tuesday.
I was like, we should do a poll,because some people I think don't care.
'cause I was like, Idon't want that pressure.
'Cause sometimes you can't make it happen.
Sometimes it's like the night beforea shoot and you're like, shit, I
forgot to upload this episode, andinstead of going to bed, you're
like doing the caption and ugh.
Anyway, so I just reached a pointthis year, I think especially just

(53:58):
as I'm, there's been differentphases where something like you
get in a routine and things areeasy and then things get upended.
I just had too much going onwith mom life and work life
and I was like, you know what?
And I was dealing, like I had a lot oflike postpartum depression and anxiety
and that kind of recovered, but I feltlike the anxiety was coming back and I was

(54:23):
just like, I just need to take some space.
Basically we, what I like aboutworking with Jennifer is we really
are just like so fine with when theother person just can't manage it.
And I felt like we were onlyhalfway through the season and I was
like, I just need to take a break.
Because also when you force somethingand then it becomes to feel like work

(54:46):
and it's no longer this fun passionproject on the side, then I feel like.
The audience can pick up on that.
I don't know.
Or at least I feel likeI'm just like forcing it.
So we decided to take a summerbreak and we should theoretically
be getting back into it.
But I also feel like the fallwinter tends to be busy work-wise.

(55:07):
So I don't know when we'regonna start recording.
When the time is right.
When the time is right.
I mean, usually when we take a longenough break, I start to miss it and
then I'm like, okay, I feel re-inspired.
There's all these things I wanna talkabout, like I'm ready to get back into it.
And I feel like that's kindof a nice thing with a hobby.

(55:28):
I feel like you never wanna force itbecause then it, you want it to be fun.
Yeah.
And your listeners will always come back.
And you know, even if noteveryone comes back, that's okay.
I think at one point we were talkingabout, 'cause we're spending money
out of pocket, obviously for aneditor and for these platforms.
And you know, it adds up.
And I think at one point we werediscussing like, oh, should we charge

(55:52):
some sort of like membership thing?
And we put it together and I literallylike asked to bail on it within a
month, 'cause I was like, I don'twant that pressure of having to
deliver because it's another jobthat we have a deadline to meet.
And if we don't owe anyone anything,then it's gonna gonna be more free.

(56:14):
It's just gonna feel more free.
I don't know if this feels the samefor you, but the minute that money is
involved, it really does feel like work.
It becomes a job.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I have this actual story where,this was my very first advertising
job that I ever did, and it waskind of, I didn't know what my

(56:36):
rate, what my, like an ad rate was.
And it was like stillson a big TV commercial.
And the, I was friends with the directorsand the directors reached out and they're
like, we wanna put you up for this job.
What's your rate?
So I gave them this, like, whatever,what I thought was a good rate
for, you know, three days of work.

(56:56):
And they're like, okay, cool.
And then it turned out that the agencybasically took that budget and they
were like, we're gonna handle itdirectly and we're giving the, like,
the rate basically tripled per day.
And so like all of a suddenI was making it like.
So much more money.
And I wasn't worried about the job.

(57:16):
And then once that numberchanged, I immediately panicked.
'cause I was like, oh my God, I haveto like overdeliver, like I have to go.
And it wasn't, I was stilldoing the same exact thing.
Like none of the scope had changed.
Like nothing had changed.
But I just like the, the money,I don't know, I don't know.
Like it just kind of, it freaked me out.

(57:39):
I don't like owing people anything.
I owe yous.
Like, please, please don't.
Any of that.
You answered this question about whatkeeps your partnership strong with
Jennifer when things get bananas,what's one ritual or system that
protects the show and your friendship?

(57:59):
I don't know if we have a ritual,but I think it's just we're
really honest with each other.
I think it also helps that we bothare doing the, we work in the same
industry, so we have the same job.
We're both moms.
We just like get it.
I just feel like we get each otherand when someone's like stressed about
something, you're like, I get it.
Like I'm there with you.

(58:20):
I understand like it's not a big deal.
So I think it's just, we don'teven have formal check-ins.
I think it's just having just likean open door, just communication
and just being feeling comfortableto be honest with each other.
I think that's honestly the thing.
She's just like, she'sone of my best friends.
How long have y'all been friends?
We met virtually through Slack becausewe've been friends for 10 years.

(58:46):
10 years started out on Slackbecause we were both working
for a food delivery service.
I was the New York photographer,she was the LA photographer, and
we all had to report to the leadphotographer who was in San Francisco.
So we were always on Slack,like sharing photos, asking
questions, blah, blah, blah.
And so we became friends justthrough our little side chats being

(59:08):
like, oh my God, this is crazy.
Like, whoa, blah, you know, whatever.
And then I moved to LA twoyears after that, and so I
was like, Jennifer, I'm here.
And yeah, we've been friendsever since 2015 and I'm grateful.
What do you love most aboutyour friendship with Jennifer?

(59:29):
I think photographers can get socompetitive with each other, and I think
it's so easy to take losses personally.
And I've actually lost somefriendships with photographers because.
I think like the competitionwas just like too much.
I don't really, I mean, that's a wholeother thing, but I'm just very grateful

(59:53):
and we've, Jennifer and I have bidagainst each other on jobs and one person
gets it and one person does it, and I'mjust so grateful that that has never,
there's never been any hard feelings.
And then the fact that we can likedebrief about it with each other is
like, we're just so transparent witheach other that I feel like she's
just like, she's a true friend.

(01:00:13):
Like she's a true friend.
That, yeah.
I think it's really hard to be friendswith fellow, like good friends with
fellow photographers for the, becauseof the nature of the industry and
obviously we don't see each other alot because we're not on set together.
As soon when we do see eachother, it's really nice.
But we text almost daily, like weliterally text each other every day.

(01:00:36):
Those are the best friendships though.
It's like, Hey, let's make plansand then, oh shit, life happens.
Let's make plans again and it'slike, oh no, life happened again.
But every day that communication, Iagree with you about ha, hard to have
friendships with other photographersbecause of just the competitive nature.
I guess it really depends on theperson, but just the way that people

(01:01:00):
are being pitted against each other.
It's sad to see if we all kind of unifieda little bit more, then I feel like a lot
of things wouldn't go, wouldn't happen.
That do happen.
Yeah.
And I feel like in general, what Ireally like about the LA photography
community is everyone there has been ashift to be more open with each other.

(01:01:20):
And so I'm friendly witha lot of photographers.
Like we'll be at the sameparties, like usually the stylists
are the unifier, you know?
So one of my prop stylist friends,she always has a party and she's
obviously friends with all thephotographers that she works with.
And so, we're hanging out withlike the photographers that we're
competing against that I like, youknow, lose bids with against and

(01:01:42):
it's totally chill and fine and we'relike, oh my God, how'd that job go?
Is it as crazy as itsounded in like the pitch?
And they're like, yeah, it was bonkers.
It's like, girl, be gladyou didn't get this one.
Yeah, there there's a lot of that.
There's a lot of that.
But yeah, so I feel like, or atleast I don't know how it is in
other cities, but the LA foodphotography scene is, feels very like

(01:02:06):
homey and friendly and I like it.
It's definitely like that here inAustin, we have a small community of
food photographers and I love thatwe're pretty protective of one another.
Yeah.
And that's what Jennifer is to me.
Like, I feel like we became such goodfriends because we were at the same point

(01:02:28):
in our careers, like when we startedfreelancing and doing our own thing.
And so we were constantly beinglike, what would you do here?
Like is this crazy?
And that's actually howthe podcast was born was we
continued that on a daily basis.
And my husband was my office.
Now it's like the baby's room, but myoffice was right next to my husband's
and he would always hear us talking onthe phone, make like talking about like

(01:02:49):
an estimate or a client or whatever, andhe's like, you guys should record this.
I feel like people would find ithelpful and we're like, really?
I don't know, this is just twogirls trying to make it work.
Yes, we need more of that.
A lot of lessons that I've learnedhave been from other photographers,
but I feel like I get bits and pieces.

(01:03:11):
Well, because people are competitiveand they're like, there's only so
much information that, I don't know.
I feel like the more transparentyou are, the more it's gonna
help the industry as a whole.
And I think that's why a lot ofphotographers gets screwed is because
there is no union and there is no,like conversa, I mean more so I think

(01:03:33):
they are having these conversations,but there's no, there's no like
platform to share all this information.
And I feel like that's how clientstake advantage of photographers.
They might not be doing it intentionally,but the fact that there's no open
dialogue between the photographers,you're just kind of like agreeing to
terms that, I don't know, you shouldn'tbe agreeing to, but you just don't know

(01:03:55):
any better because you're, you can bevery isolating to be your one man, one
woman team if you don't have an agent.
If you're like really just workingby yourself, it's like you don't
have anyone to bounce ideas off of.
Experiences off of.
And so I think it's reallyimportant to just be transparent.
I think it just will help the industryinstead of, I think it's hindering

(01:04:17):
the industry right now when people arehave that like competitive mindset of
just like, I'm just gonna gate keepand this, I've worked really hard to
learn this stuff and it's my knowledge.
I do have one last question.
What's inspiring you right now?
Oh my God.
I was like, thinking about this.
I'm honestly in like a phase.

(01:04:39):
I just had a meeting with my agentlike a few months ago and she was
like, what are you excited about?
And I was like, gosh, I don't know.
Like I kind of just wannaget like my mental head space
back because like I'm a mom.
But I think something that I didn'trealize I was really missing and
is just coming from just shooting alot of ad work is kind of just like.

(01:05:00):
The looseness and flexibilityof editorial shoots where you
can kind of be more creative andeverything's like less prescribed.
'Cause for ad jobs, everything'sjust like so flushed out in the
pre-production meeting that you're, bythe time you get to set, you're just
like, okay, I'm creating the plan.
And so I've been trying to do touchshoots that are not like super

(01:05:23):
planned out or I can just likeshoot more freely and capture that
kind of like more creative energy.
And then I just had a meeting with myagent yesterday and just in talking
I realized like I'm actually excitedabout shooting, like working with kids.
'Cause I used to likebe really afraid of it.
And I, 'cause I didn'tknow how to relate to kids.

(01:05:44):
Like, I was like, I'm not a kid.
Like, I don't know, likethey're just kind of scary.
And I worked on a bunch of kids shootsbefore becoming a mom and they've always
been like, oh, I just have to do it.
And then since becoming a mom, I've hadlike so much fun with it that I was like,
oh, I think I wanna maybe shoot somemore kid related products and work more.

(01:06:07):
Yeah.
I don't know, like it's just somethingI literally have never thought about
until, I just had a shoot recentlywhere the, there's usually like a child
wrangler on set that kind of helpswith the energy and she was like, okay.
And I had to like really step up and Iwas like, oh wait, I know how to relate
to kids now because like I have one.

(01:06:27):
And I just had so much fun workingwith kids and I was like, I think
I wanna shoot with kids more.
So I don't know, it just kind of like fellin, like the realization kind of fell into
my lap yesterday and I was like, I thinkI wanna like put in a little bit of work
to get more of these kinds of clients.
I love that.
I love that.
That sounds exciting.

(01:06:47):
Yeah, it's exciting.
I was telling my, my agent yesterday, Iwas like, oh, like it's exciting because
I don't have a ton of experience with it.
I've like never put alot of thought into it.
It's always just been something like,oh, and there's a kid component.
And now if I want to activelypursue it, then the next step is
like putting together a test shoot.

(01:07:08):
And you know, there's like,there's certain talent agencies
that represent families or likemoms and kids or pregnant women.
And I think it's just reaching out tothem to see if anyone wants to do a test
shoot and just building up a portfoliothat I don't actually currently have.
So we'll see.
It is fun.
It's like, it's fun to have like a littlegoal because I don't feel like I. Once

(01:07:29):
you get into the routine of shooting thething that you're hired for you, you're
like, okay, I'm just doing the thing.
I'm doing it 'cause I like it.
I'm doing it over and over.
But there's nothing like,I'm not learning anything.
Like, I mean, I always learnsomething from every shoot, but
it's not like a new, new hat thatI'm gonna, that I've been wearing.
So I'm excited to play around with that.
So where can the listenersfind you admire your work?

(01:07:54):
All that fun stuff?
You can find me on Instagram.
My handle is Ren Fuller ormy website, renfuller.com.
And then Photo Dump, which is photodump.club, is our Instagram handle.
Ren, thank you so muchfor being on the show.

(01:08:15):
Aw.
Thank you for having me.
This episode is written and producedby me, your host, Mica McCook.
Like this episode, give us afive star review on Apple Podcast
and subscribe to the Savory Shotwherever you get your podcast.
Or follow me your host, Mica McCook,on Instagram at Mica dot McCook.

(01:08:39):
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