072: Contracts 101: Avoiding Common Pitfalls in Food Photography

Stop Rushing Contracts and Start Protecting Your Work A seven second truth most creatives feel

You get an exciting client email, then the contract arrives and your chest tightens as legal pages show up.

A deeper question we rarely say out loud

What would change if contracts felt like clarity instead of confusion in your creative business?

Meet the guest who makes legal feel human

Mica McCook sits down with Rob Finkelstein, a lawyer, pastry chef, and food blogger who helps creatives understand contracts, licensing, and business protection in a simple way.

What this episode gently unpacks

This conversation opens the door to the hidden world behind creative work. You learn how contracts define ownership of your images, why licensing matters more than most realize, and how influencer-style agreements often miss the mark for photographers. Rob explains how negotiation is a normal part of business and not a risk to your opportunity. You also hear why forming an LLC protects your personal life from business risk and how even “small” contract details like legal jurisdiction can shape real outcomes. The episode also touches on supplier diversity certifications and how they can open doors for creatives from underrepresented communities.

What you can take into your own business

You will walk away understanding that asking questions is part of professional work. You will feel more confident reading contracts line by line. You will see that protecting your work and income is not complicated when you understand the basics. You will also feel encouraged to treat your creative path like a real business with structure and intention.

A final reminder to carry with you

You are allowed to slow down before signing. You are allowed to ask. You are allowed to understand every word before you agree. Your creativity deserves that level of care.

 

 

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📣 Follow Rob Finkelstein

Instagram: Rob Finkelstein@contractlegalease Instagram: Rob Finkelstein@cinnamonshtick

 

 

Would you like to be a guest on the show? Fill out the guest form, and we'll be in touch soon.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the 72nd episode of TheSavory Shot, the podcast about the art
and soul of working in food photography.
Y'all know who I be.
I'm your host with the most, Mica McCook.
I'm a food photographer, visualstoryteller, and full-time

(00:21):
survivor of contracts I probablyshould have read more carefully.
More on that in a second.
But first, y'all, thelove, I have to address it.
Y'all, y'all, you sure know howto make a girl feel special.

(00:41):
The love coming in from thiscommunity has been absolutely unreal.
Every review, every DM, everytag, I see it, I feel it, I
appreciate every single one of you.
So to the day oners who havebeen here since episode uno,
thank you for growing with me.
And if this is your first time tuningin, welcome to the Hot Mess Express.

(01:07):
You're one of us now, boo, so buckle up.
Now, before we get into today'sgoodness, I just gotta ask,
did y'all catch episode 71?
Because if you missed it, pleasego back and listen immediately.
I sat down with Rani and Uduak of1117 Collective, a Lagos-based food

(01:30):
and lifestyle photography duo, andy'all, it was the show's very first
two-guest international episode.
I hope y'all enjoyedthat as much as I did.
I had a blast learning about how Nigerianfood is represented in the media.
And y'all, it's a conversationyou do not wanna sleep on, so if

(01:51):
you have not listened to episode71, it is waiting for you.
Go listen.
I'll be right here.
But okay, but now, I need to talk abouttoday's episode because this conversation,
it genuinely changed how I think about mybusiness, and I don't say that lightly.

(02:13):
So without further ado, I am excited tointroduce y'all to today's guest, Rob
Finkelstein, a man of many, many talents.
Y'all, Rob is a foodphotographer's dream come true.
He is a lawyer whoactually gets our world.

(02:35):
He gets the food business, howthey think, how they see, the
contracts that show up and it'snot even written for photographers,
it's written for influencers.
The clauses that you're justsupposed to trust are fine.
Rob is the person who tells you thatthey're most definitely not always fine

(02:59):
And he's a food photographer himself,so he knows how we think, how we worry.
Like, he knows.
And what I love is that he doesall of this, teaches you all
of this without making you feellike an idiot for not knowing.
So a little about Rob.
Rob is a lawyer, as I said before.
He is a lawyer with over20 years of experience.

(03:22):
He went to culinary schoolfor pastry arts in 2017.
And y'all, he did that whilerunning his own law firm.
Oh, my goodness.
He turned that creativedetour into a food blog.
He got into photography.
He created an online coursecalled Contract Legalese, built

(03:42):
specifically for food photographers.
In this episode, Rob breaks downwhat every food photographer
needs to know about contracts.
For example, why negotiating won'tscare brands away, how influencer
agreements are wrong for photographers,the boilerplate clauses that can cost

(04:04):
you big, who actually owns your images,and how diversity certifications
unlock brand opportunities.
But y'all, before we get into thisepisode, I need a favor from you.
If you know a photographer who'sbeen signing contracts on vibes and
prayers, y'all send them this episode.

(04:25):
Seriously, this one is a gift.
You are blessing them.
So do that, and then grab yourcoffee, grab your pen, grab a
notebook, and let's start the show.
Welcome to The Savory Shot, abiweekly show about the art and
soul of working in food photography.

(04:46):
I'm your host, Mica McCook.
Every other Wednesday, I sit down tochat with professionals in the industry
so that you feast on only the besttips and strategies in the business.
All right, y'all, let's get started.

(05:08):
Rob, thank you so much forcoming on The Savory Shot.
I'm so excited about this conversationbecause it has been a hot minute since
we've had a lawyer on the show, but alawyer that specifically caters to food
photographers, that is just so fantastic.
So thank you so much for beingon the show, for joining us.

(05:32):
Oh, thanks so much for having me.
I'm excited to speak with youabout all the legal stuff and more.
And more.
And more.
So I wanna get thisstarted and on the road.
You are a unicorn of many talents.
You're a lawyer, a pastry chef,food blogger, and photographer.

(05:53):
What is one thing you've learnedabout yourself through all
of these different careers?
I think I've always known, but Ithink I've, because I've taken on so
many different things, I've reallyaffirmed for myself that I am a
multitasker, and I know that I amjust more engaged and focused when I
have lots of different things to do.

(06:15):
Being a full-time lawyer obviously keepsme very busy, but I love that I have this
other stuff going on that I can do, andit's more like the creative side of me and
things that I'm really passionate about,like baking, that I get to do in my off
time, the weekends and evenings and stuff.
So I think that's one thing that I'vereally- I've always known it, and when I

(06:36):
see people who have one thing to do andthey can't consider anything else going on
in their lives, in the world or anythingbecause they need to focus to get that
one task done, I don't fully understandthat because I'm just the polar opposite.
But I've learned to take a step back andappreciate people who are the opposite,
and they need to just focus, and I nowknow I can give them the space they

(07:01):
need to accomplish whatever they needto do while I keep doing a gazillion
different things at the same time.
I'm one of those people who canonly do one thing at a time.
No, and I think most people are like that.
But
I want to be a multitasker.
You called pastry schoolyour non-midlife crisis.

(07:24):
What did you mean by that, andwhat led you to go at that time?
Well, I think I said non-midlife'cause I don't wanna admit that it
was midlife, but let's face reality.
It was a midlife crisis.
I've been baking since I was a kid.
I started, I don't know, when I wasin, like, middle school or something,
box mixes, and eventually, likeafter, like several months of making

(07:45):
Duncan Hines cakes and brownies andcookies, I said to my mom, "I wanna
make cookies from scratch." And shewas just like, "Okay, go ahead."
So I started just making recipes andstuff and learning it, and I ended up
coming up with my own cookie recipe,like, by the time I was in high school.
And it's been a passion, but it'sbecause I'm a carb addict and I

(08:07):
love sugar, so w- what's not tolove about getting the end product
that you want and crave constantly?
So I mean, that's how thewhole baking thing started and
I could have gone that route.
I think because of parental issues,I went more the academic route, and
I ended up pursuing a legal career,and I certainly don't regret it.

(08:29):
It's been amazing so far and, butI love that I was able to bring
it all full circle later in life.
And so what happened is thatI became a lawyer, worked for
a couple different law firms.
In 2013, I started my own law firm witha partner- And a few years later, I
just had that creative itch burning.
And I don't re- fully remember, but itwas when Instagram was really getting

(08:52):
started with videos, and one of theculinary schools in New York City
had a competition, and there were...
The grand rewa- award or whateverwas a full scholarship ride to
culinary school for pastry arts.
And I'm like, "Oh my God, thatwould be amazing. I wanna do
that." But I was too scared.

(09:12):
I mean, I had no problem going intocourt and arguing cases, but I was,
like, very nervous about being onvideo and... 'Cause it was all just
new, and I didn't grow up with that.
So, I don't know, I just kinda came outabout doing it, didn't know what I would
do, and then I took a step back and Irealized, okay, if I wanna go to culinary
school for pastry arts, I can do that.

(09:32):
I- thankfully, I make a good living.
I can afford to put myself through.
I don't have any children,so I'm not paying for their
schooling, so I can do that.
And I just was like, "Okay, I'm gonnado it." And I checked out a couple
of different schools in New YorkCity, where I was living at the time,
and I picked one, and that was it.
I went nine months.

(09:53):
It was three nights a weekfrom 5:30 to 10:30 PM.
It was insanity, 'cause I'm runningmy law firm while doing all of this,
but I didn't miss a second of class.
I can't say that about law school.
I learned a ton.
I met amazing people I'mstill close with today.
And about a year and a half after, Iwas like, "Okay, now what am I gonna

(10:13):
do?" I love baking and all of that,but I also love my life being a lawyer.
You make decent money , soI didn't wanna give that up.
And I just, out of nowhere, waslike, "I'm gonna start a blog."
Of course, I knew literally nothingabout it, but I launched in January
2020, and then the pandemic hit, which Ihate to say this, 'cause it was horrible

(10:36):
for everyone, of course, but it workedto my advantage 'cause like everyone
else, I was at home and I was able toreally l- just focus on it since I was
working from home during working hours.
But then I had no commuting time oranything, so that freed up some more time
every day that I could work on recipes.
I realized after my first coupleof posts that my photographs were

(10:58):
atrocious, and even looking at them, Iwas like, "I wouldn't wanna make that,"
and I made it, and it's delicious.
So I enrolled in FoodtographySchool school and then a real
camera, and within six months, Istarted getting work from brands.
And so it all really camefull circle because of the
Foodtography School Facebook page.

(11:19):
There were so many people.
It was so active then because so manypeople were taking that course- And so
people were asking all kinds of contractquestions and other legal questions
for their food photography business.
So I started answering them, and thenpeople started coming to me, and I
started... People were hiring me tohelp them through just general legal
business issues and negotiating anddrafting contracts for them, negotiating

(11:44):
with brands, negotiating with agencies.
So one of the very first people I endedup working with, she put it in my head
and was like, "You should create anonline course so that food photographers
understand contracts because she's,none of us know what we're doing.
We're just signing on the dottedline and hoping and praying that
it's the right thing." And Iwas like, "Oh, that's not good.

(12:07):
You all should understand whatyou're negotiating and what you're
signing." So I then took her adviceand I created this online course.
Sometimes midlife crisis are good.
I mean, I guess I c- I would call thema renaissance of some sorts, 'cause you
spend so many years in the cog, the wheel,and then you realize, you know what?

(12:29):
I need something else, and you goand you seek that out, and so it's
like another new lease on life.
And I love that it waspastry school for you.
For me it was photography.
But in the Foodtography Facebook group,'cause I know what group you're talking
about, and it was such a lively group.
I was really sad that the school programor the online class program, they

(12:52):
discontinued it, 'cause I felt likeit was so helpful to so many people.
What was a common question thatmajority of the members asked that
they should know but they didn't know?
People were asking good questions.
There was never, and there isn't, a dumbquestion because if this isn't stuff

(13:15):
that you are familiar with, you didn'tgo to law school, you aren't like...
You didn't have some other careerwhere you were negotiating contracts,
you wouldn't know any of this stuff.
The biggest issue, I think, and the mostcommon questions were around copyright
and who owns the images, and how doesthat all work, and how do you leverage

(13:36):
ownership and licensing out your images.
So there's like a legal side to it,but there's also a business side, and
when you understand The legal parts ofa contract, it really empowers you and
gives you more confidence so that youcan negotiate the business aspects.
And by the business aspects,I mean hardcore cash.

(13:58):
I mean, what are these people gonna payyou in exchange for using your images,
and the length of time they get to useit, where they get to use it, how they
get to use it, if they can reproduceit, if they can make any changes to it.
Everything comes with a dollaramount attached, and that's all stuff
that you can negotiate, and I thinkpeople got very nervous about that.

(14:19):
And the other thing, too, is is I sawthis with a lot of more just beginners
getting their feet wet, and they wouldget their first sort of brand deal.
They were so petrified to go back tothe brand to negotiate any part of the
contract, and it's, well, wait a minute.
They've already approached you becausethere is something about you or your

(14:39):
work that they're interested in,so there's already interest there.
You're not gonna scare them off becauseyou go and negotiate a contract.
If that were the case, nocontract would ever be negotiated.
I mean, that's business 101.
You've gotta negotiate.
And I've never... I've beendoing this for 25 years.
I've never seen a party walk away solelybecause someone tried to negotiate.

(15:04):
I mean, are there times wherethe parties get to an impasse?
Of course, and then you decide to walkaway 'cause you realize, you know what?
This isn't gonna work out forus, but better to know that
before you start doing the work.
But just the fact of contacting the brandand say, "Hey, can we just tweak this
language?" And, "We'd prefer that itsays this, that, the other thing," or,

(15:27):
"That's really not gonna work for me.
I understand you have a budget, but Ineed to make at least this amount of
money." Going and having that conversationdoesn't scare the other side away,
and that was something I think thata lot of people just really didn't
appreciate and were just nervous about'cause they had never done it before.
I can definitely say thatI didn't know to negotiate.

(15:49):
I didn't know to really look throughcontracts, and I learned hard lessons
with every shoot that I did where I waslike, "Okay, I guess that's going in
my contract the next time I do anothershoot like this." You mentioned that
many brands would send agreements,and it was more targeted towards
influencers than actual photographers.

(16:10):
So walk me through that influenceragreement that you ripped apart
and said these needed some changes.
What were some changes thattransformed it into f- like
an actual food photo contract?
This was actually for a client of minewho, I mean, she had made a big ... She'd
already started working with huge brands,and so then she got contacted by a global

(16:35):
brand, and she was so excited to workwith them, but she got the agreement and
she's, "Okay, this does not feel right."
And so she sent it to me.
I mean, the title of the agreementwas Influencer Agreement.
And I'm like, okay, well,right off the bat, they're not
hiring you to be an influencer.
She's not appearing on the camera.
She is taking photos, and I thinkmaybe doing a couple reels or

(16:58):
something, of actual food products.
I mean, she's not frontface of the camera.
So it's already, this sounds weird.
And I start reading it through andit's just everything's reversed.
It's the polar opposite ofwhat we commonly do in a
food photography agreement.
And so in this influencer agreement,for example, the brand was asserting

(17:21):
ownership of literally everything.
I mean, all of her images, but also tothe extent that she appears in them,
and there was, of course, a releasethat she's giving that she's going to
be in the images and all this stuffthat just was completely inapplicable.
So, I mean, I completelyreworked the whole thing.

(17:41):
I changed it to, the title I think I madeit was Food Photography Agreement, so that
it was clear what this was, and I justripped it apart and changed it around.
I mean, there were things that werejust completely inapplicable, like
FTC guidelines and disclosures thatthey were requiring her to make
when she posted on social media.

(18:02):
But none of that applies to a foodphotographer who's not appearing in the
images and not endorsing anything, butjust being hired as a third party to snap
photos and take video of the brand's food.
So it was interesting to see becauseI've, the agency that represented
this global brand is huge andI've, I know the lawyers there.

(18:26):
I've negotiated with them before.
And I was just so surprised andshocked that they came back and said,
"Oh, we accepted all your changes.
We had never worked with afood photographer before.
We'd only worked with influencers,so thanks for all these changes."
So okay, so now meanwhile, mysolopreneur food photographer client
basically paid for them to geta new form for food photography.

(18:49):
I applaud my client for having thewherewithal to recognize that this didn't
smell right and it didn't feel right,and she didn't just go and sign it.
She's, "Okay, I don't understand this.I need someone who does," and she got me
involved and we got it all straightenedout, and she went and did the work.
She made great money off of it, and thiswas, I think- Two or three years ago, and

(19:10):
I think she's still doing work for them.
So it was a great lucrative thing, andI mean, all the things I've already
talked about, don't fear negotiation.
I mean, this is it.
And she had done that before.
She had negotiated agreements, butshe was, because I really marked
this up, there was a lot of redline,she was very nervous that she would
lose them, and I was like, "No.
Trust me.

(19:30):
They're not gonna walk away.
They wanna work with you.
They just don't have theright agreement in place."
And that's exactly what happened.
So that's, like, the lessonI'm trying to get in here.
Go negotiate.
Get what you want.
Get what you know is right, andif they don't give it to you,
then that's a big red flag.
Is it almost expected on the client'sbehalf for the photographer to negotiate?

(19:53):
I mean, listen, the end of the day,whether you are a food photographer,
whether you are a painter, whether you area plumber, whether you are an electrician,
whatever you're doing in life, no oneshould just be signing on the dotted
line without reading and understanding.
There, there could be times wherethe other side presents you with an

(20:13):
agreement, and it's very fair, it'svery reasonable, the provisions are
reciprocal, there's no major issue,and you're, "Okay, I can sign this." I
think that's rare, but sure, it happens.
But the expectation is you are abusinessperson, so act like one.
You need to negotiate, and you needto advocate on behalf of yourself,

(20:33):
and the best way to do that isto understand what all this means
and how it all works together.
That makes so much sense.
And you said something, you're abusiness, you need to act like it.
I know for creatives, that's sohard to do, start thinking like a

(20:53):
businessperson when it comes to contracts.
I get it.
As a creative, we all kind of just wanna,everything's happy and good, and be
creative and all that, but even the mostcreative people are running businesses,
and you've gotta be a businessperson.
You just do.
You have to have the confidence to speakup for yourself, and you're not gonna

(21:15):
succeed in any business without that.
That's just plain reality.
So you gotta suck it up, and just,okay, I'm gonna take on this role
and act like a businessperson.
I mean, literally, be an actor, and do it.
Take on a different persona.
Do what you have to do to reallynegotiate and advocate for yourself.
I mean, that's what you need to do.

(21:35):
In terms of being a business, that, itblends into a legal question, which I
think we talked about pre-productionalso, is do you form a business entity?
And the answer is yes.
I can't scream it fromthe rooftops loud enough.
Absolutely.
First of all- Putting aside the legalissues, which I'll... I can talk about
quickly, but from a marketing perspective,for me, when I see that someone I'm gonna

(22:01):
hire is not operating under their ownindividual name, but as a corporation
or a limited liability company or apartnership or whatever type of entity it
is, I already have some level of respect.
It means this person is seriousabout business, they have a real
company, and it's so important.
I mean, from a marketingperspective, that's huge.

(22:23):
From a legal perspective, it is socritically important because if you just
operate under your own name, even if yougo and register your name as a DBA, doing
business as some brand, whatever thatyou created, there's no protection there.
That is a worthless endeavor.

(22:43):
It's archaic.
I don't know why it'sstill offered in the world.
It should just not be allowed, frankly.
It doesn't give you anythingfrom a legal perspective.
The purpose of creating an entity likean LLC or a corporation is that the
second you form it, you go onto theIRS website, and I'm only speaking, of

(23:04):
course, about the United States here,and you get a- an employer identification
number, an EIN, which is theequivalent to a Social Security number.
So that entity is like a person.
That's how it's defined.
It is a person, and that person now,when you're operating your entire
business under that umbrella, that is theperson that is responsible and liable.

(23:29):
So heaven forbid you infringe onsomeone else's trademark in the course
of your work and you get sued, yourcompany should be sued, your LLC or
your corporation, not you individually.
So that protects you.
If you get sued individually becauseyou never formed an entity, guess what?

(23:51):
If you inadvertently infringed onsomeone's mark and you get sued and
they win, I mean, you could go bankrupt.
That exposes all of your personal assets,your bank account, your jewelry, your car.
I mean, you want to avoid all that.
That's why you create this window,this barrier, or wall actually, between

(24:14):
yourself and your business entity.
It's just protection.
It's smart.
It's... There's no reason not to do it.
The costs are minimal compared topotential liability down the road.
So I mean, anyone who saysto me I'm not doing that.
I don't wanna do that.
I'm just like, "That's the stupidestthing I've ever heard." It takes
literally five minutes to form.

(24:34):
Yes, it's a few hundred bucks here orthere, depending on what state you're in.
Just do it.
It's the best money you'll ever spend.
It makes you real.
It gives you the protection you need.
That's not to say therearen't ways around it.
There's a legal theory calledpiercing the corporate veil,
which could come into play.
You can avoid that.
Piercing the corporate veilmeans that, okay, you have an

(24:56):
entity, an LLC, or a corporation.
I'm suing you because youinfringed on my trademark.
Okay, that's it.
But I'm going after you personally,too, because this is just a sham,
the LLC or corporation you created.
It's really just anextension of you personally.
And the reason why someone could do thatis if you commingle all your funds, if

(25:19):
you don't have a separate bank accountfor your entity, but you're putting
it all in your personal bank account.
You don't have a separatecredit card for your entity.
You're just charging itall on your personal stuff.
That sort of commingling invites thatargument for piercing the corporate veil.
So, don't do it.
It's a separate person, treat it as one.
Get your own bank account for the company.

(25:41):
Get your own credit card for the company.
Keep separate books and recordsfrom your personal stuff.
That's the best way to make sure thatyour small investment in creating the
entity will pay off at the end of the day.
Keep it all separate.
If my husband were, were here listeningto you just now, he'd be, like,
doing the bow down, 'cause he's anaccountant, and he's also a musician.

(26:04):
And so a lot of his musician friendswill come to him, and they'll ask him all
these tax questions, and he's, "If youhad kept a solid set of books throughout
the year, this would not be an issue."
He also found that a lot of themusicians didn't have an LLC.
There was, like, no protectionwhatsoever, and it drove him nuts.
And 'cause th- this lead to my nextquestion, but you already answered

(26:27):
it, about what's the one nightmarescenario that should convince
someone to file an LLC tomorrow.
And if losing everything isn'ta, a nightmare enough scenario
for you, then I don't know, Idon't know what else would be.
I guess people just think, "Oh,I'm careful. It won't happen to
me." I don't even know what Iwould say to someone like that.

(26:50):
It can happen to you.
What would you say?
And I've had that.
I've had a commercial photographerwho's been in the business for over
30 years, and her attitude was, "Well,I have been working for 30 years.
I've never had a problem.
I've never been sued." Well- Okay, that'swonderful, but what if you do get sued?
I mean, that's the whole point.
I mean, you're not a fortuneteller, and we're all human, and

(27:13):
even if you're the most carefulperson, something could happen.
You could end up snapping a photograph ofsomeone who's in it, and you end up using
it for a commercial purpose, but you nevergot a release from them, and you get sued.
I mean, why would you take that risk?
.. It could be veryunintentional on your part.
That's the point.
You just wanna keep it all separatebecause you don't know what can happen.

(27:36):
So if there was a checklist of, forphotographers from a legal standpoint
of what they should do if, I wouldn'tsay if they're starting out now, but
maybe they do have things mixed up andthey don't have an LLC, what would you
tell them to do, three things rightnow, to at least protect themselves?

(27:57):
Well, honestly, this applies toanyone who's been doing this for
some period of time, whether it's ayear, 10 years, 30 years, and someone
who's going to start out today.
It's the same advice.
Form an entity.
Absolutely form an entity.
Do not wait till tomorrow.
Do it now.
The sooner you do it, the better.
Get separate bank account,get a separate credit card for

(28:20):
your entity once it's formed.
This stuff does not take much time, andI actually have a very dear friend of
mine from high school who is a creative.
She's a copywriter, and she put itoff for years, and finally she woke
up and realized, "I really need tocreate an entity." And she dragged her
feet doing it, thinking it was gonnabe such a burdensome thing to do.

(28:40):
I was like, "Listen, we'll get ona Zoom call. We'll do it together."
It took literally five minutes.
And then she's like, "Oh,that's it?" I'm like, "Yeah.
Like, I don't know why you madeit such a big deal in your head.
It's not.
Just do it and you're done, and go to thebank, get your bank account, and keep it
all separate, and that's the end of it."
It's very simple to do.
I don't understand what the apprehensionis here, but absolutely do it.

(29:03):
When it comes to anything relating tolegal, it just feels like this big,
giant, daunting mountain, and it'sscary, and you don't wanna go through it.
I know for me, that was ... It wasjust overwhelming to even think about,
like, where to start, what to do.
For a little plug here, that's whyI created my course about contracts

(29:24):
and all the legal stuff involvedthere, because there's no reason why
anyone just going to, to photographywould know any of this stuff without
doing the research and learning it.
That's the importance of learningit all and understanding it.
There may be some verbiage you'renot familiar with, but look it up.
Listen, we're at a day and agewhere you can just go online and

(29:45):
Google stuff, and I'm not advocatingto do legal research online.
I'm actually the opposite.
I'm very hesitant tobelieve anything I read.
But just to get a definition of aterm That, it could be very useful
for that to help you understand inyour head what is the gist of this.
But if you don't fullyunderstand it, talk to a lawyer.

(30:06):
I mean, it's the smartest thing youcan do to protect yourself and ... But
that's what I do in my course.
I explain what all these terms are.
I have a form food photographycontract, and I go through it literally
word by word and explain what it allmeans and how it all works together.
And I think with that understanding,I know everyone who's taken it

(30:27):
has told me that it's just been sobeneficial, not just in their food
photography business, but just in life.
I mean, someone hired a homeimprovement contractor and gave her
this contract, and she was like,"Okay." And she started reading it
and said, "Wait, I understand this.
I know what this means." Because90% of what's in any contract
is very similar language.

(30:48):
I mean, there are nuances for foodphotography around intellectual
property rights, like ownershipof the copyright and licensing.
But otherwise, a lot of stuff is very,carries over contract to contract.
And once you get a lay of the land andyou understand it, you are empowered
to negotiate and look out for yourself.
And there might be clauses in there,you're like, "Whoa, I'm not agreeing to

(31:10):
that." And you can push back and say,"I'll sign this agreement, but you need to
delete this sentence and that sentence."
I think the other thing that preventsa lot of creatives from doing things
like filing an LLC is that it'sdaunting to do it alone, and I would
say you don't have to do it alone.
There are organizations out therethat will hold your hand and help you.

(31:34):
Here in Texas, it's TALA, TexasAccountants and Lawyers for the
Arts, and we have gone to a few oftheir workshops where they try to
break down, like, the copyright.
Like, they explain it, and they doprovide services where they'll help
you file an LLC if that'll help.
Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts.
So there's things, and now there's you.

(31:56):
People know you, so theycan reach out to you.
Yeah, and there are third-partyfor-profit things out there too
that you can hire, and they'll gofile and form an entity for you.
And I mean, I don't really trust anyof them, but that's just because I know
how it all works, and I know it's supersimple to do, and there's no reason
to spend money on someone to do that.

(32:17):
And listen, you could have questions,and I find that depending on which
state you're forming in, all the onesthat I've ever done, there's helpful
information on the state's website.
So it's usually under the Secretaryof State for whatever state
you're in, and there's a ton ofinformation on their websites.
And it's not just you go fill out a form.

(32:37):
Like, there's an information sheet, andit will usually tell you, "This is what
they're actually asking for. This is whatyou need." And it's so straightforward.
It really does not take morethan five minutes to do.
And in my mind, there's no reasonto go spend money on someone.
You can do that yourself
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Or I got lucky and I marriedsomeone who did it for me.

(32:58):
Exactly.
Marry smart, that's the lesson here.
Marry smart.
Marry smart.
You mentioned earlier about how you cantell the client, "Hey, I don't like this
clause. We need to either change it ortake it out if we're gonna work together."

(33:18):
What's a clause that consistentlygets overlooked or ignored but is
so, so important that shouldn'tbe overlooked or ignored?
I mean, there's a couple of thingsthat I could say in response to that.
So if we're talking just aboutfood photography, I mean, the
biggest issue of course iscopyright ownership and licensing.

(33:40):
So that's something that I think asphotographers we all need to hone in on
and make sure the contract says what wewant it to say with respect to ownership.
A general proposition, my positionis I'm the photographer, I own the
photos no matter what, and the contractis that I'm licensing them to you.

(34:00):
If the contract says somethingdifferent, then we need to talk,
negotiate, mark it up, whatever.
There are exceptions to that.
There are photographers who do work,for example, for food bloggers.
So it makes sense that the foodblogger will want to retain and
have ownership of all the images,because what if that food blogger

(34:21):
eventually wants to sell their site?
They're gonna wanna represent to thebuyer that they own all the images and
all the copyright associated with it.
So that's an exception to consider.
So it's not one size fits all, but Ithink generally that's the framework.
In terms of clauses that I thinkget overlooked, it's always

(34:42):
the, quote, "boilerplate stuff."
People just, they hear the wordboilerplate and they're like, "Oh,
that's fine, it's boilerplate.I don't have to look at that."
That's the stupidest thing ever.
No.
If it's in the contract, Idon't care what you call it.
Call it a peanut butterand jelly sandwich.
If it's in the contract, thereare words there, you need to read
them, you need to understand them.

(35:03):
If you don't like them, youneed to negotiate them out or
negotiate different language.
That is plain and simple.
You can't ... There isn't a provisionthat's more important than another.
It all works together.
And the, quote, "boilerplatestuff," it's terms that you usually
find at the end of a contract.
It's fairly standard to justthrow all this stuff at the end.

(35:25):
And by this stuff I mean,like, the choice of law.
That's a legal term for what law willapply in the event that there is a dispute
between the parties in the agreement.
So oftentimes we'll see a sentencethat says, "In the event of a dispute
under this agreement, the laws ofthe state of California will apply."

(35:48):
So you need to read that and look at thatand say, "Well, wait a minute. I live in
New York. I don't know California law."You're not a lawyer, so you probably
don't know New York law either, butthat just complicates things for you.
And then the next sentence, sometimes,not always, will be a jurisdictional
sentence which says, "In the eventof a dispute, any litigation will

(36:11):
happen in the state of California andin a specific county in California."
Well, okay, wait a minute.
I live in New York.
I don't wanna go to Californiaif we end up in some sort of
litigation over something.
Now you have to hire a lawyer out there.
You're gonna have to travel out therefor depositions, for trial and whatnot,
all because you signed this agreement.

(36:33):
So you need to look at that,and if you're working with a
big brand that's headquarteredin California, they're probably
gonna have that language in there.
So you need to go back to themand say, "Hey, wait a minute.
I'm a one-person show here.
I'm not agreeing to go to Californiaif we have a litigation." And you
can push to say, "I want New York..."If, say, you live in New York, "I

(36:55):
want New York law to apply, and Iwant any litigation to be resolved
in New York." I would try for that.
If they push back and say, "Well, okay, wecan't agree to New York law applying, but
we'll remove the sentence that anythinghas to be brought in California." So in
that case, the contract would say thatCalifornia law applies, but it's silent

(37:18):
as to where a litigation could be brought.
And this way, say they screw you andthey don't pay your bills, you can
sue them in the state of New York.
So that gives you that leverage.
California law would apply.
Now, there are nuances to all of that.
I wouldn't say it's really worth lookingat the differences between California

(37:39):
law and New York law, but there aredifferences among all 50 states.
So that's something to be aware of, orif you're working with a brand that is
outside the United States, their lawsare going to be different than ours.
Oof.
That sounds... I mean, I've neverworked with a brand outside of
the US, 'cause it terrifies me.
Once you get the lay of the land of acontract, you can go through all this.

(38:03):
They're saying they want thelaw of their country to apply.
You'll know what the big issues are.
You can go on Googleand see what the law is.
For example, what's the statute oflimitations on a breach of contract claim?
Nine times out of 10, becauseyou have a contract, that's going
to be whatever claim could arisewould be a breach of contract.

(38:23):
That's a very good chancethat's what would arise.
Other things could happen outside of thecontract, sure, but the biggest potential
claim is a breach of contract claim.
So find out what the statuteof limitations is on a
breach of contract claim.
In California, it's four years.
In New York, it's six years.
I don't know what it is in Texas

(38:43):
Yeah.
So when you sign the agreement, it may beadvantageous to think that stuff through
to try to negotiate for a different,a state where you live in, if it has,
like, a longer statute of limitations.
But that's a sword and a shield,because what if they have a claim
against you and now they have a fullsix years to bring it from when it
happened because New York law applies?

(39:04):
So I don't think it's worth gaming it anddoing the research to try to figure out
what state is more advantageous for you.
The point in doing it is that, becauseif you, if there is no clear statement
in the contract as to which jurisdictionapplies in interpreting the contract,
you end up in a whole other sideshowlitigation to f- have a court determine

(39:30):
what jurisdiction's law will apply.
So if the contract is silent anddoesn't say what state's law will
apply, the company's in California,you're in New York, there's a legal
conundrum which state's law applies.
And it could be a distinction withouta difference if the laws are similar,
but if they are different, like there'san iss- say, say the client is in

(39:53):
California, you're in New York, they sueyou five years after the claim arose.
Well, under California law, you'dbe able to file a motion to dismiss
and say, "Hey, you didn't bringthis in time, so judge, dismiss this
case," and the judge likely would.
But if it's under New Yorklaw, it's timely 'cause it's
still within the six years.

(40:14):
So again, I'm not saying that you shouldgo research all this beforehand and
game which state's law, but if you knowall this going into it, you know which
state's law will apply, you avoid a realbig sideshow because it's actually a big
analysis that the court would have toundergo, and there'd be a lot of legal
research involved, a lot of lawyer timeto go and figure out to make the argument

(40:38):
as to which state's law should apply.
And you can just avoid that whole sideshowby having one sentence in your agreement.
But that's always tucked in in the,quote, "boilerplate stuff," and
people don't pay attention to it,and it's of paramount importance.
And that's why I'm saying everyword of every contract is important,
and there's nothing that youshould just be glossing over.

(41:00):
And if you don't understandit, don't go sign it.
Ask what it means.
There's no shame.
I mean, you can go ask around and tryto Google the definition, but go back
to them and whoever you're dealingwith at the brand, 9 times out of 10
you're not talking to a lawyer, you'retalking to a marketing person or someone
in the marketing department usually.

(41:20):
They probably don't even knowbecause they're just sending
what their legal department said.
And when you force them toanswer the question, "Hey, I'm
not understanding this clause,"confusion is always the best thing.
"I'm really confused. I don't understandthis. Can you explain it to me?" They
might be able to, so okay, that's helpful.
But I find more often thannot, they have no clue.

(41:43):
They have to go back to their legaldepartment, and then when they
do that, they can explain to yourlegal department, "Oh, wait, that's
not really what's going on here.
That's not this business relationship."That's why they're ask- that's why
the photographer is saying, "Oh, waita minute, this doesn't make sense."
And they can sometimes just get it removedwithout you having to do anything further.
So, and I think it's a greatway business-wise to... Don't

(42:06):
be scared of the contract.
Use it.
It's a good way to leverageyour relationship with whoever
you're dealing with at the brand.
Don't be scared of the contract.
That's gonna be my motto.
The contract can be yourfriend if you understand it.
If there's certain legal termsjust look scarier than it actually

(42:27):
is, but when it's broken down intosimpler terms, you go, "Oh, okay.
I get that.
That makes sense.
That makes a lot of sense, actually."I mean, you mentioning about where
litigation's gonna take place,I've never even thought about that.
Like, if, 'cause if I'm based inTexas and I sign a contract for

(42:47):
litigation in California, I couldsee that adding up really quickly.
Plane tickets, hotel costs, food, travel.
Do I even have that kind of fund?
And that's not on top of payingfor the lawyer, and whatever court
fees that are associated with it.
It's like I had never even oncethought about that or considered that.

(43:08):
I mean, now I will.
I'll be checking to make sure.
It's an important clause, and it's buriedin that boilerplate stuff at the end.
Yes.
So I wanna swing it to this topic.
I noticed on your blog, CinnamonSchtick... I love that name.
That's such a cute name.

(43:29):
And I noticed that it iscertified as LGBT-owned.
Can you explain how that cameabout a- and what it does for you?
Sure.
So I mean, this is totally separate andapart from the legal world, of course.
So I'm gay.
My company is therefore 100% ownedgay, 'cause I'm the only owner.

(43:50):
So there are certifying bodies outthere to certify minority-owned
businesses, whether it's LGBT-owned,women-owned, Black-owned, veteran-owned,
disabled-owned, Asian-owned.
There are bodies out there to certifyyour entity, and why that's important
is because there is this worldof supplier diversity out there.

(44:12):
And I mean, I don't wanna get politicalhere, but the current administration
is trying to rip that up, but it stillexists, and it's still very much out
there, and it's still very powerful.
And the whole point of it is thathistorically, we're going back 60
years- People woke up and said, "Okay,companies are hiring smaller companies

(44:34):
to outsource and do other work forthem, but most of those companies are,
like, white male-owned companies. Sohow do we push to engage companies
that are owned by other people?"
And 'cause I think there was anappreciation that they're bringing
in other communities and otherperspectives and other creative talent

(44:57):
based on those people's backgrounds,not just the straight white man.
So I believe it was IBM that reallystarted it, I think it was maybe even
the '50s that they started it, and theypushed a supplier diversity program.
And so most big companies have thesesupplier diversity programs where
they actually look at, and theyhave a goal, they have a percentage

(45:21):
goal of their outsourcing business.
So whatever they farm out, they want toattain that goal of 20% of whatever they
hire someone outside of their own companyto do should be a diverse-owned business.
It's not, I think as this administrationwould say, that you're getting hired
just because you're Black, you'reLGBT, you're a woman, whatever it is.

(45:44):
That's not what goes on in reality.
No one's getting work justbecause of those things.
People are getting work because theyget their foot in the door because
of those things, but then theyprove themselves, and they get hired
because of the quality of their work.
And I can tell you that's happenedfor me both with Cinnamon Stick,

(46:06):
my blog, and with my law firm.
So I'll start with thefood photography stuff.
I mean, six months into doing my blog,I had a brand reach out, and I did work
for them, and then they found out thatmy business was certified as LGBT-owned.
That got them even more interested becausethey were already happy working with me.

(46:27):
They were happy with my work, but theykept giving me more work because they
had a supplier diversity program, andthis kinda checked that box for them.
I mean, if they found someone else todo just as good if not better work, they
would certainly go hire that person.
But I was doing work that theywere happy with and was good.
So it's a great thing.

(46:48):
From my law firm perspective,my law firm is certified.
Both my partner in my law firm and I aregay, so we have had our firm certified
as LGBT-owned since we started in 2013.
We haven't gotten work because of it,but we've gotten our foot in the door
because of it, and then once we got ourfoot in the door and had interviews,

(47:10):
we've gotten tremendous business from it.
So, I mean, one example is thatwe had an Ivy League university
reach out to us because we do a lotof construction law, drafting and
negotiating, uh, agreements for largescale construction, and this university
was looking to hire another law firm.
They'd been working with a huge nationallaw firm, and they just decided, "You

(47:34):
know what? We need to find someone whocan... doesn't cost as much, and we
wanna see if we can get a diverse-ownedlaw firm." And so it came down to us, a
woman-owned law firm, and that same largelaw firm that they had been working with.
And we got it because we couldtalk the talk and walk the walk.
We know construction law.
We were able to go in and have veryintelligent conversations about the legal

(47:56):
issues, how to resolve them, and all thatgood stuff, and that's how we got hired.
But we were able to get thatinterview because we were certified.
So it's really important, and Iknow the vast majority of food
photographers in particular are women.
You are a woman-owned business.
And I don't... I've been, like, takinga back seat wondering for the last

(48:18):
few years, like, "Why are none of yougetting certified?" I think it's not
a big deal to do, and it's somethingto tout on your website, and it's a
way to potentially get more business.
What was the certificationprocess like for you?
The certification process, I thinkamongst all of these certifying
entities, it's very similar.
You have to show some financials.

(48:39):
You have to show you'rea real, viable business.
You have to prove who you are.
I mean, for me, being LGBT, people justgo down, like, this sort of dirty hole,
"Oh, what'd you have to do to prove that?"
You just get affirmations frompeople saying, "Yes, this person
is part of the LGBT community. Iknow them," and stuff like that.
It's very simple to do.

(49:00):
There are a number ofcertifying bodies I mentioned.
The one that certifies the LGBTcommunity-owned businesses is the
National LGBT Chamber of Commerce.
There's one for women.
The acronym is WBENC.
I think it's Women's BusinessEnterprise... I forget what
it stands for, but if you justGoogle WBENC, you'll find it.

(49:23):
But if you are a minority ofany sorts, there are a bunch
of different ones out there.
So go look it up.
Go get yourself certified.
It's a great way to not just get business,but to maintain business, because once
you're certified, if you're doing workfor a brand and then you're, you realize,
oh, they have a supplier diversityprogram, mention it to them and say,

(49:45):
"Hey, by the way, I noticed that youguys have a supplier diversity program.
I don't think I ever mentionedto you, I've been doing this work
for you for so many years." I'mactually, my business is certified.
That spend by your company shouldbe allocated and should be measured.
You should include that spendfor me because I'm certified,
and that helps the company out.

(50:06):
Sometimes the marketing person you'redealing with doesn't even know about
the supplier diversity program becausesometimes companies are just so big
and there's no internal communication,so you end up educating them on it.
And I've had that happen, and it's,like, amazing to educate them about
the own inner workings of their companyand that they have this great program.
So it's definitely something I don'tunderstand why food photographers in

(50:27):
particular haven't really jumped on that.
I think it could be verybeneficial if you leverage it.
I mean, I'll be jumping on it now.
Yeah.
I'll be jumping on it now for sure.
If a company reaches out to me becausethey are specifically looking for
a Black female food photographer,I will take every opportunities.

(50:50):
When I was in high school my senioryear, the guidance counselor calls all
the seniors in and tells them, "Whatare your plans after high school?
And here are some scholarships,opportunities that you might wanna
consider." And I remember goingto my guidance counselor's office,
and she put this giant stack ofscholarship applications, and she

(51:12):
goes, "So that's for African American."
I was like, "Cool," and I grabbedit and I was about to leave.
She goes, "Ah, ah, come back." Shehanded me another stack 'cause I'm
also Mex- Mexican, and she goes, "Andthese are for the Mexican Americans."
And I was like, "What?" And I waslike, "I can apply to..." And she
goes, "Well, you are African American.
You are Mexican American."

(51:32):
And then she goes, "And I have anotherone, and these are for all women
scholarship applications." And I wasable to go to college because of some
of these scholarship applications thatI would not have known about otherwise.
That's just it.
But what you said before, if some brandis looking for a Black woman-owned

(51:53):
photographer, you're like, "Hey,I'm here." That's the whole point
though, because they're looking forsomeone who is qualified, who does
great work, but has that particularbackground for a reason, and they're
not gonna hire you just because of that.
They looked at your portfolio, andthat's why they're gonna hire you.
I mean, I've looked at your stuff.
Your stuff is gorgeous.

(52:14):
I mean, anyone should be hiringyou to begin with, regardless
of whatever your background is.
I mean, your photographs are stunning.
Thank you.
But it's, I considerit to be like a filter.
There's so many talented photographers outthere, and sometimes you have to cipher
them out to see which ones fit your needs.

(52:35):
And I agree with you 100%,but that's just the point.
Especially if it's a new client foryou, what a great opportunity to get
your foot in the door, and there's somuch potential for future work there.
I'm definitely gonna seek outgetting certified for women-owned,
minority-owned, all these things.
And the other nice thing about itis you can be as active or inactive

(52:58):
as you want once you become part ofthat community and you get certified.
They, each of them have, like, localstuff going on, but they also have
national annual conferences, and thatcan actually be smart to attend, because
there are brand representatives there,and you can look and see who are the
corporate partners for each of theseorganizations, and you can see who

(53:20):
will be at these annual conferences.
And at these conferences, I used togo to them all the time, they usually
have a whole, like, banquet roomfilled with tables, booths, whatever,
for each of the corporate partners.
And you can literally walk around toeach and every one, introduce yourself,
"This is what I do," blah, blah, blah.

(53:41):
You don't have to saythat you're certified.
They know you're certified.
That's why you're in the room.
But you can really market yourselfto them and say, "Hey, this is
what I do." And take a look.
I mean, if the corporate partnersare all just hotel chains, then
maybe that's not a smart fit for you.
But if there are food brands there,it could be worthwhile investment
to go to these conferencesand get yourself out there.

(54:05):
What's the first step someoneshould take if they're
interested in getting certified?
I mean, how many... I knowthere's the, you mentioned
the LGBTQ plus certification.
There's the women, the WE.
There's minority-owned.
It's, the acronym is NMSDC.

(54:25):
I forget.
It's like National... Just, I'm horrible.
I can never remember the fullname of any of these places.
But if you Google it, you'll find it.
There's one for disabled people.
There's one for veteran-owned companies.
I remember, it's Disability:IN.
That's an easy one to remember.
But just go to their websites.
They all are very similar.
I know that the LGBT one wasmirrored off of the women-owned one,

(54:48):
and they all talk to each other.
They all work together.
They all require the same sortsof things when you fill out
the certification application.
So it's all right on their websites.
It's very user-friendly.
It's very simple to do It'sdefinitely worth looking at, I think.
I mean, it worked for mewhen I had just started.
I mean, it's a great thing to have'cause companies are looking for it.

(55:10):
Notwithstanding the current climate,companies are still very active in
their supplier diversity program.
I wanna finish this interview aboutdiving a little more into your course.
What's the single most importanttakeaway that you wanted students
to have after completing it?
My goal in offering the course isreally to provide the confidence

(55:36):
that a food photographer needsin order to negotiate a deal.
I mean, that's what it all comesdown to, and you can't do that
without knowing what it all means.
And so it's really just about gettingeducated on what a contract is,
why you have it, and what literallyevery single word in it means.

(55:58):
Once you know all of that, it justbecomes so much easier to advocate for
yourself and negotiate and get terms thatmaybe they aren't the most ideal terms
for you, but they're at least somethingyou can live with, and they aren't
as bad as what was initially offered.
And that's business.

(56:18):
That's how deals get done.
And the more you understand, thebetter you can do all of that.
So that's really thegoal behind the course.
And I mean, I'm very proud and happyto say that literally everyone who's
taken it, all the feedback has been thatthey've achieved that, and they're able
to go and look at a contract, and evenif it's outside of their business, and

(56:41):
like I mentioned, a home improvementcontract, like, people are able to
take this education and use it totheir advantage in all walks of life.
And that's what I was looking toachieve, and it sounds like I've done it.
As I get any other feedback, Icertainly will make tweaks and stuff.
And one thing that I was thinking of aswe were talking, actually, is that I have
a number of bonus sections in the course.

(57:04):
So one is about creating an entity I gavethat whole spiel here, but there's another
bonus section on trademarks and whetheror not you should apply to register your
brand name as a trademark, and I talkthrough all of the ins and outs of that.
I actually need to update that sectionnow because the United States Patent

(57:24):
and Trademark Office, the USPTO, hasupdated their website over the last,
I don't know, 10 months or something.
So in the bonus section there, I sharedmy screen and recorded it so you could
see what I was doing and how to search andall that, but now it's totally different.
So that's something I have to update.
I think it's an important bonussection for people to understand,

(57:45):
wait a minute, I have... Me, Ihave this name Cinnamon Sticks.
Should I register that as a trademark?
And if I'm going to, how do I do it?
What are the benefits of that?
How does that all work?
So I answer all those questions.
What part of the courseare you most proud of?
I mean, I'm proud of the whole thing.

(58:07):
I mean, it was a, really it was a lot ofwork to put it together, but I created
a form food photography contract,so you walk away with that form.
And so you will be able todownload that as a Word document.
You'll be able to take that andedit it and tweak it, 'cause
different things are gonna happen.
Brands are gonna want differentthings, and you're gonna wanna

(58:29):
include different... If you'redoing work for a food blogger,
that's a different agreement.
So I have a form for that also.
So you get all this stuff, and the beautyof it is that you will have the knowledge
and the power to tweak the language.
It's not just, "Oh wait, I don't knowwhat to do." You will know what to
do, 'cause I explain it all to you.

(58:49):
I explain what all these wordsmean, and this is really the most
that would likely be in there.
Listen, I'm not a fortune teller.
I don't know what every brand'srequirements or wants are
when they send a contract.
There could be something else out there.
But generally speaking, thisreally covers the lay of the land.
I'm very happy that everyone who'staken it has really found it beneficial.

(59:12):
I mean, that's the beauty in it forme, and that what makes me feel like,
okay, this is... I'm glad I put thistogether because it's really helping
people, and it's protecting people.
It's protecting these, every, allthese food photographers who are
doing work out as real businesspeople, it, they're protected.
So I think that's what I'm most proudof, is that I was able to educate people

(59:35):
on how to negotiate better, understandall this, and protect themselves
When you mentioned your course, I waslike, "I need that in my life now."
When I work with food stylists and propstylists, I'm shocked that they don't
have a contract with me or with anyone.
And I'm like, "So what, you'rejust gonna do a spit handshake?" I

(59:57):
mean, I know we have an establishedrelationship, and that's fine.
I mean, I know one of the prop styliststhat I work with, they... I thought
that they were loosely creating one.
Should they have a contract?
And if you had 10 minutes to convincethem, what would you show them first,
prop stylists and food stylists?
Absolutely.
I said it before.
Everyone in any sort of businessshould have a contract, period.

(01:00:21):
There's no exception.
There absolutely should be a contract.
The whole point of a contract isthat the goal is to avoid a dispute.
It outlines the natureof your relationship, how
everything's going to work.
So I mean, for us, ownership ofthe images, that's a big issue.
Get that figured out now.
What are the license fees?

(01:00:41):
How long is the license for?
You can't operate on awink and a handshake.
And even for the s- the stylists andthe prop people you're working with,
I mean, what are the terms of payment?
When are they supposed to get paid?
How is that going to work?
That all goes in the contract,everything about your relationship.
It is a road path for the nature ofyour relationship, and if, heaven

(01:01:05):
forbid, something happens and there's adispute, this is how it gets resolved.
That's all in the contract.
The whole point is to avoid having tospend time and energy trying to figure
out things later, and to say, "Oh,we didn't really think about that."
Well, no, you think about thatbefore you engage in the work.
That's the whole point of the contract.
Everyone should have one, period.

(01:01:26):
There's no discussion to be had about it.
And frankly, for me, if I'm gonnawork with someone and they don't want
a contract, I'm happy to draft it.
I can do that.
If they don't want one,I won't work with them.
I just won't.
It's not worth it to me.
It's, it creates risk and liabilityfor me, and I'm not interested in that.

(01:01:46):
So if... That's me.
I do not operate on awink and a handshake.
Everyone should have a contract, period.
Every time I've operated with a winkand a handshake, it's backfired, so
Exactly
I mean, I've worked with the sameassistant for, for a few months
now, but we've done several shoots.
Yeah.
No, and that's a great point, because youdon't necessarily need to be sending an

(01:02:08):
agreement for every different project.
You can have what's called a masteragreement, where you already have all
the same parameters for every agreementwill apply, and under that agreement,
you can just have him sign a, likesomething that goes with it, like a
statement of work, and that outlines thespecifics for that particular project,

(01:02:30):
the price that he'll get paid, whenhe gets paid, and what he'll be doing.
It will differ project toproject, but y- that's what each
statement of work, or SOW, is.
It's just the specifics forthat certain engagement.
But it falls under the umbrellaof the master agreement, where you
have all the boilerplate language,you have ownership of everything.

(01:02:50):
All those big contractual termsare already done and negotiated
and agreed to, so doing astatement of work is a no-brainer.
It's just plugging in, "Oh, you'regonna work on this date from this
time to that time for this amount ofmoney. You're gonna style things for
10 different images." And that's it.
It can be that straightforward.
I talk about that in the course, too,and how that, to set that all up.

(01:03:13):
It's a, that's how businesses do business.
They have master agreements,especially when you're working with
the same people for similar things.
So if they're gonna hire you to be afood photographer for God knows how
long, hopefully eternity, and they'llkeep coming back to you, they'll give
you a master agreement so that younegotiate all this big stuff that's

(01:03:35):
gonna apply in every instance up front.
And then each statement of workwill have whatever the pricing is.
Maybe one will have you doingvideo and images, one will just
be images, one will just be video.
But the, all those like businesspoints are just confined to that one
project in the statement of work.
Where can people who areinterested and want to get your

(01:03:56):
course, where can they find it?
So full transparency, I pulled theplug on the course earlier this year
just because I was just inundated.
I had a lot of stuff going on in mypersonal life and my law firm life
was really busy, so I just couldnot dedicate the time to marketing
it, so I just pulled the plug on it.
It was on Teachable.

(01:04:16):
It may or may not be there by the timethis episode of your podcast drops.
I'm trying to figure that out.
It will be there again, andit will be under the same URL,
which is contractlegalease.com.
That's the separate LLC Icreated for this course.
I have a different LLC for my blog.

(01:04:39):
That's Cinnamon Stick LLC.
Remember that wholething about the entities?
That's why.
Separate entity.
I think when you reached out to me tobe a guest on here, it's re-inspired
me to say, "Okay." Everyone who's takenthe course has gained value from it.
They all appreciated it, andthey were upset when I had
to turn the off switch on.
So I decided I'm gonna revampit and get it back out there.

(01:05:01):
So I will do that.
It w- should certainly be up by thetime this episode drops, and I'll follow
up with you so you can drop it in theshow notes to where people can find it.
Keeping everything separate entities,keeping everything separate.
I'm very easily locatable.
My blog, Cinnamon Stick, I have a separateemail address, [e-mail].

(01:05:21):
You can also contact me on Instagramor Facebook under that handle, and
the same is true for my contractcourse, Contract Legalease.
I have an Instagram handle for thatand a Facebook account, and also the
email address is rob@contractlegalease.
So I'm very reachable.
I'm happy to answer anyquestions anyone has.
And once I get the course back out there,if anyone has questions about that,

(01:05:43):
by all means feel free to reach out.
Thank you so, so muchfor being on the show.
Oh, thanks so much for having me.
It's been a blast, and we'lldefinitely stay in touch.
This episode is written and producedby me, your host, Mica McCook.
Like this episode?
Give us a five-star review on ApplePodcast and subscribe to The Savory

(01:06:07):
Shot wherever you get your podcast.
Or follow me, your host, MicaMcCook, on Instagram at mica.mccook,
or you can follow the podcast onInstagram at thesavoryshotpodcast.
If you have any questions, comments, orwould like to be featured on the show,

(01:06:27):
email us at [e-mail].