March 5, 2026 • 40 mins
In season 9, episode 2 of the Thrive In Design Podcast, host Nicole Lashae Hall welcomes Cheryl Durst, Executive Vice President and CEO of the International Interior Design Association (IIDA), for a powerful conversation about expanding the role of interior design beyond aesthetics and into measurable business and human impact.
With more than 30 years in the industry, Cheryl shares her journey from educator and journalist to global design leader — and why she believes design is not passive, but a strategic driver for revenue, equity, belonging, and organizational change. Together, Nicole and Cheryl explore how designers must evolve their language to better communicate ROI, outcomes, and impact to the C-suite and stakeholders across the ecosystem.
The conversation dives into the future of the profession — from IIDA’s Certified Design Futurist program and the difference between forecasting and foresight, to how manufacturers can leverage demographic shifts and cultural signals to design proactively. They also unpack insights from IIDA’s Industry Roundtable on generational intelligence and the power of multi-generational collaboration in shaping the built environment.
Finally, Cheryl shares the mission behind IIDA’s Design Your World program — an initiative introducing underrepresented high school students to interior design as a viable and impactful career path — and why playing the long game is essential for building a more equitable future for the profession.
If you’re a manufacturer, designer, or industry leader looking to align strategy, storytelling, and impact, this episode offers clarity and conviction on where design is headed — and how to lead it forward.
Timestamps00:00 – “Design is a driver”: Reframing the value of design 01:14 – Cheryl Durst’s journey from educator to CEO of IIDA 05:18 – Why design is more than aesthetics — it’s business strategy 09:10 – The language gap between designers and the C-suite 12:25 – Evidence-based design, metrics, and articulating ROI 15:19 – Interior design as art, science, and business 18:41 – Certified Design Futurist: What foresight really means 22:56 – Forecasting vs. foresight — what’s the difference? 24:24 – How manufacturers can apply strategic foresight 29:11 – IIDA Industry Roundtable: Generational intelligence insights 33:08 – Mentorship across generations 34:57 – Design Your World: Expanding access for Black and brown students 39:08 – How to connect with IIDA
Key Quotes-
“It is not passive. It is a driver for your business goals. It is a driver for equity and belonging. It is a driver for revenue.”
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“Design is about what happens on the receiving end.”
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“Interior design is an art, a science, and a business.”
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“You can’t just let the future happen to you.”
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“Design isn’t about things. Design is about people.”
To learn more about Cheryl Durst and her work shaping the future of design and the built environment, connect with her and International Interior Design Association (IIDA):
- Connect with Cheryl on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/cheryl-durst-hon-fiida-386335a/
- Follow IIDA on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/company/iida/
- Follow IIDA on Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/IIDAHQ/
- Follow IIDA on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iida_hq/
- Visit the IIDA website:http://www.iida.org
You can also reach Cheryl directly at cdurst@iida.org.
🔗 Connect with Thrive In DesignFollow Thrive In Design for insights on design leadership, business strategy, and growth in the A&D industry:
- Website: https://www.thriveindesign.co/ • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/thriveindesign/ • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thriveindesign/ • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thriveindesign
- Take the SpecReady™ Assessment: https://specready.co/ • Join the Thrive In Design: AI in Design Summit on May 20, 2026:https://tidsummit.com/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
It is not passive. It is a driver for your business goals. It is a
driver for success. It is a driver for equity and
belonging. It is a driver for revenue. Human beings need to stand
for something, and design is something
that, although we are often passionate about the
practice of design, articulating the meaning of design
(00:22):
has always been something that has been critical to me and to my
career. Welcome to the Thrive
and Design Podcast, the show for interior product brands
ready to turn insight into action. I'm your host,
Nicole Lashae Hall, founder of Thrive and Design. Each
week we explore how manufacturers, marketers, and
(00:44):
sales leaders can align strategy, storytelling, and systems
to drive real specification growth. This podcast is about
moving beyond scattered marketing, outdated sales tactics,
and visibility for visibility's sake, and into clarity
alignment, and momentum. Whether you're navigating change,
scaling thoughtfully, or rethinking how your brand shows up in the
(01:06):
design industry, you're in the right place.
Welcome back to another episode of the Thriving Design
Podcast. I'm your host, Nicole Lashae Hall, CEO and founder of Thriving
Design, where we help interior product companies expand their influence and
revenue through human-centered design, strategy, and leadership. I'm
(01:29):
honored to welcome an extraordinary leader, Cheryl Durst,
Executive Vice President and CEO of the International
Interior Design Association, also known as
IIDA. A visionary strategist, an exceptional
communicator, Cheryl has spent her career expanding the
role of interior design, advocating for its value not just
(01:50):
as an aesthetic discipline, but as a critical driver
of business equity and societal impact. Under
Cheryl's leadership, IIDA supports more than 15,000
members across 58 countries, advancing
global conversations around design excellence,
advocacy, education, and community. Widely
(02:12):
recognized as an ambassador for innovation and expansion, Cheryl
made history as the first African American woman inducted into the
Interior Design Hall of Fame, receiving its inaugural
leadership award Award in 2016. She
also serves as the International Well Building Institute
Governance Council and as a trustee for
(02:33):
Chicago's Museum of Contemporary Art and the New
York School of Interior Design. In today's episode, we move
beyond buzzwords to explore what it truly means to
expand the role of design from leadership and advocacy
to measurable business impact. We'll dive into Cheryl's
perspective on the future of the industry, the intangible skills
(02:55):
designers need to thrive, and how thoughtful design can shape
healthier, more equitable environments. This is a conversation
every design leader should hear. So let's dive in. Welcome to the show,
Sheryl. It's a pleasure to have you here. Hi, Nicole. That was,
that's always interesting hearing about yourself before you're, before you're
jumping into a conversation. So thank you for that. Yes, absolutely.
(03:18):
So Cheryl, let's frame this conversation and share a little
bit about you, a little bit more about you. I know we just
read your introduction, but you spent decades
advocating for the value of design.
Tell me a little bit more about your journey and why do you think design
is still often reduced to the aesthetics instead of
(03:40):
recognized as a strategic business and human-centered
discipline? Let me hit this from a couple of touchpoints. I,
I came to my role as the CEO of
IADA. I've worked in this industry for over 30
years, started my career in design in Washington,
D.C. I worked for the Washington Design Center, which was a
(04:01):
component of the Merchandise Mart, but in Washington, D.C., I
headed up education and programming for designers there.
Prior to that, I was a high school teacher. I am not a designer. My
background is in journalism and economics. I'm a I'm a writer at heart,
but I've always been a believer in education
and optimism and advocacy. Human beings need to
(04:25):
stand for something, and design is something
that, although we are often passionate about the
practice of design, articulating the meaning of design
has always been something that, that has been critical to me and
to my career. How do we talk about design and what does it mean?
Most people who aren't designers kind of default to
(04:47):
aesthetics And there's absolutely nothing wrong with aesthetics and beauty, but
design is so much more than that. And so
helping, helping human beings understand, and then ultimately
from a business standpoint, the C-suite, people who are
consuming design services, helping them understand that
design is a driver, right? It is not a path. It is not passive.
(05:09):
It is a driver for your business goals. It is a driver for success.
It is a driver for equity and belonging. It is
a driver for revenue. And so having those conversations
around the impact of design and not just on the bottom
line, but its impact on humanity has always been intrinsic
to my career. And so obviously it ultimately, ultimately led me
(05:31):
to— I started with IIDA as the director of education, became
CEO after about 3 years at the association. And so those
pillars of optimism and advocacy
and just the narrative around design have always been central to
the work that I've done. I love that. And I'm wondering if— did you ever
have this aha moment about design
(05:53):
and I guess its impact on the world, especially coming from
education, right? You were a high school teacher and you
transitioned into this industry. So what was your aha moment of,
oh, like, this is the impact that design is
having on the world? You cannot
separate the impact that place
(06:16):
has on people, right? I remember as a child
hearing my mom, who was a scientist, a microbiologist,
would talk— geography is destiny. And she was talking about that from
a health context. She specialized in infectious diseases,
and she was talking about it from a health context. I always thought about
it as we are informed by the places that we
(06:39):
inhabit, and whether that is from an
ancestral context or particularly from a learning standpoint,
—my father was an educator. And so when I taught
in D.C., I had a freshman homeroom, and
I had a class of 40 students, but
I had 32 desks. And so I
(07:01):
remember a group of students walking into that classroom, and
immediately, what does that tell you? What did that tell them when
there wasn't a place for them to sit? What does that immediately
make you feel like? And so that was a grounding moment for me. But
even as a child growing up, I spent a lot of time a lot of
time with my grandparents, and I remember what it felt like to be in their
(07:22):
home. I remember the first time my grandmother took me to a library
and what that space felt like. I took art classes as a
child and that sense of awe and wonder and curiosity that
I had walking into a museum. And so this really
soul-deep connection between people and place has always
been something that has interested me, intrigued me, and
(07:44):
also inspired me. Yeah. And I love the memories tied to, to
place too. When I was in design school, we had to do this project, like
what was our third place, right? Outside of home,
outside of school. What was that third place that we have so many memories
tied to and designing based on that inspiration? So
that's what your story reminds me of. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah,
(08:07):
place storytelling is fascinating. And I think everybody
has a story about that first place. You talked about third places, but
what's that first place that we remember as a child
or that first place that had impact on us. And it's
anywhere from familial to, to cultural, but nostalgia,
super powerful. And the power of memories to impact us
(08:30):
is incredible. And it's often tied to place. Yeah, I love that.
And so with design and in your role at IIDA
now, like you're touching a lot of the world
really. Yeah. In so many places, so many types
of design. Types of design, so many
stakeholders in the design process, right? Yeah.
(08:52):
Yeah. So with design serving so many different
stakeholders, far too many to list and name in the time
that we have, right? From end users to business leaders to
manufacturers, where do you see the biggest disconnect in how we talk about
design's value across that ecosystem?
Oh, I love this question. It's a complex one
(09:14):
because I was educated as
journalist. Words matter. And I often think
that the lexicon and vocabulary that we often
have in design further
allows design to be mystified. And
thinking about what people respond to, but thinking about how
(09:36):
often designers need to translate
language for clients or customers. And I think about
the connection between, particularly in commercial design,
between designers and the C-suite. And very often
you are communicating with someone who has business
objectives in mind and they haven't considered design
(09:58):
as a business objective. And so using our words in
our vocabulary to make sure that C-suite or
business owners are understanding the
outcomes of design, right? Because people have to get beyond
kind of that immediate surface level. And so again, that's often
the conversation stops at beauty, stops at aesthetics.
(10:20):
There's often been the belief that design is a luxury as
opposed to necessity. And so when we start using words
like impact and bottom line and return on investment,
I'm not talking about diminishing the
power of beauty. We don't ever want to do that. So I think
that designers need to be part-time linguists as well
(10:43):
as we are talking about the deep impact of design,
but also realizing design needs to be paid for. It needs to be
championed and it needs to be paid for. And some those best champions
around design and change, right? Because that's
another powerful word that we can use when you're talking to a business
owner about change and the built environment. And so thinking
(11:05):
about those very simple words that all point to the
impact that design has, not necessarily the
cost of design, right? Because the minute people start thinking about beauty and
aesthetics, that takes you to luxury and that takes you to expensive.
Yeah. And we need to think about the impact to support
human beings and and also to support change in an
(11:27):
organization and change within people. Yeah. And it's really interesting that
you break it down like that, especially for me as someone who went to
interior design school, you actually don't learn the ling— the
linguistics behind what you just said. Out of design school
is okay, you are in foundations and you're learning the foundation of
fine art. And then you start your design core
(11:49):
curriculum and you're learning, I guess, like programming and problem
solving, depending on what vertical you're focusing on for that class.
And ultimately creating the designs. But a lot of what you just said is
not taught in design school in terms of understanding the ROI,
understanding the impact of your design and how you are
articulating that to different stakeholders in the
(12:12):
design process, especially the ones that are paying the money,
right? Yeah. Yeah. How, how have you seen
that important language learned or
adopted in our industry? So I think about healthcare
design in particular. And when you hear
healthcare designers talking about evidence-based design,
(12:34):
that immediately speaks to hospital
administrators, that immediately speaks to folks who are
dealing with risk and liability and risk management or reducing
liability as well as patient care. So I think
that terminology— and I'm not talking about sugarcoating and making up
words, but design is research-based. It
(12:55):
is rigorous, right? There is order and
rigor and import to the work that design
does on behalf of humanity. And so
it's aggregating those words and that terminology
to better build a case for design because unfortunately
we continually need to build a case for our
(13:19):
profession and build a case for the work that we do as
designers. And it doesn't mean being on necessarily
being offensive, but it is— we are as viable
as any other profession. I think sometimes though,
it— what makes it difficult for people to 100%
wrap their heads around design is it is not only are
(13:41):
we touching the physical human being, there's a part of it that's
the soul. It's really hard to qualify and
quantify the impact that we have on the soul of human
beings to create change. And so I keep coming back. I probably, if
you could turn this into a drinking game, how many times I use the word
impact, but thinking about how we articulate impact.
(14:03):
And so metrics would be one way. Absolutely. Metrics and
analytics would be another. I think case studies are
so valuable for designers to show that evidence
of what we do and how that can change an organization or
change what an organization is doing. And then
belonging is another part of that conversation. I think what has helped
(14:26):
us, at least in the last certainly since the pandemic,
is the emphasis on well-being, physical well-being,
emotional well-being, spaces that are safe
for human beings to thrive in, not just live in, but thrive
in. I think the conversation around emotional well-being
has tremendously helped the profession of interior design, supported
(14:48):
the profession of interior design. Yeah. And with all of those different
topics and words One of the things that we talked about in our
initial conversation was a common language or a
shared language for the— shared language. Yeah. Yeah. Whether that's
wellness, inclusion, belonging, strategy,
ROI, or impact even. I guess, how
(15:10):
would you like to see all of our stakeholders sharing
a common language when it comes to creating an understanding about the
design process? So I think it's also this, this
idea, design is a multiplicity of things, right? And specifically
we are of talking about interior design. It's an art, it's a
science, and it's a business. And I think there is
(15:33):
already a pretty clear understanding around
the artfulness of interiors. I think
there is less understanding around the science
of interior design. And so that was talking about data,
talking about metrics, but making that data human, letting that data
tell a story. And then I think where we sometimes
(15:55):
lose people or people who aren't quite closing that gap is around
interior design as a business. And so that means
interior designers need to be really proficient in
this talking of this three-legged stool and talking about
interiors design specifically, and interior specifically as
an art, a science, and a business. Yeah. And helping,
(16:17):
helping their clients understand that. For me,
design is about what happens on the receiving end. And so
how do we start talking about the language of
outcomes? How are we using the language of outcomes
to explain what we do and the value of what we do. Yeah,
I want to see like more business classes and interior design programs
(16:39):
to get that language. Definitely starting to see this
trend in more designers from a
postgraduate standpoint pursuing master's. So an MBA,
starting to see more designers go down that path. It
is fairly difficult to double major in interior design and
business from an undergraduate standpoint because the undergraduate graduate
(17:01):
curriculum for designers, there's so much depth and breadth, there often isn't
room for undergraduate interior designer to even breathe, let alone thinking
about double majoring. But definitely seeing more
interior design students minoring in business, but also
minoring in psychology, sociology. And
so those, what once upon a time I think people called those softer sciences,
(17:23):
but those sciences arrayed around human behavior, because that's
the other piece of this, right? Design isn't about things.
Design is about people. Interior design is about people and how they
are interacting and behaving and living and thriving in an
interior environment. And so having that understanding of human
behavior is just so intrinsic. I— my
(17:46):
gut tells me, and this is starting to happen, I know this conversation is
happening from a curriculum standpoint, that interior design
really does merit a 5-year program. It does.
It does for all of those topics that you just mentioned.
And so with the industry evolving, we see a lot of different like
factors impacting the industry. We've gone through a
(18:09):
pandemic, right? And people are looking towards the future
as well. So not only thinking about this like shared language that
we're talking about, but what does the future look like? With
IIDA, you all have a Certified Design
Futurist program that I stumbled across a few times
and I'm like, good. I'm like, what is this all about?
(18:30):
Yeah. Yeah. It signals a shift towards foresight as a design
capability. If you've seen cycles come and go, you know what
matters isn't trends, it's what lasts. SpecReady is
a readiness framework that helps interior product brands create
clarity, alignment, and systems that don't rely on constant
pushing or reinvention. It gives teams a shared language and
(18:53):
structure structure so the brand continues to show up clearly and
competitively, even as leadership evolves. And
for perspective on how AI fits into the industry's future
without the noise, the AI in Design Summit offers
thoughtful, practical insight grounded in real business
realities. Learn more at specready.co and
(19:14):
tidsummit.com.
So how do you define foresight in practice and what
changes when firms begin offering it as a service?
We really are looking at our certified design futurist
curriculum about expanding a
(19:36):
competency for interior designers. And you and I have heard these
conversations about other professions picking
away at design. We certainly see design
thinking as a term that is used, bandied about,
people will say, hire me, I'm a design thinker, whatever that might
mean. But we certainly know that there are consultants out
(19:58):
there who are using design or leveraging design
strategy, maybe without having a professional background in design. And
then we see— we are seeing end users and clients hiring
design strategists as opposed to professional interior designers.
And thinking about this in terms of a professional interior design organization,
it was all about what can we do to expand the current
(20:20):
competencies of interior designers and looking the future. And
foresight is something that designers use all the time, whether
they realize it or not. When you are creating the built
environment, when you're creating an interior environment, you're not just doing it for
the now of that client, you're doing it for their next. And so there's
always been this rigorous thought about what's
(20:42):
next for your clients, even though the client may not be deeply invested in it.
And so strategic foresight is a very
structured, systematic discipline that
is used to explore and anticipate
for multiple futures for a brand or for an
organization. And so it's not about foretelling, it's
(21:04):
not about, it's not a crystal ball, it's not about being
predictive, but you're analyzing a disparate
set of signals and possible disruptions
to your future that allows you to be proactive in decision-making.
It's very processed and organized. There's a process, there's a
methodology. Which design in and of itself has a process and a
(21:26):
methodology. But it was something for IIDA that it just made sense
that it was a skill set that we could further enhance and develop
for designers. And we have this 10-week course that is an
introduction to strategic foresight. Yeah, there are firms
out there because an engagement with a
designer or a design firm may not necessarily end
(21:48):
in a built environment. It may end up in a new way of
thinking for an organization or a new set of tools
tools or resources to do something different to drive your future.
And so looking at the consulting side of design or a
consultancy, it could evolve into a change in the built environment.
But firms who are using this with their clients are finding
(22:10):
that they are keeping those clients longer. They're involved in
deeper, more strategic organizations from the top of the organization.
And so it's helping firms build longer-term
relationships with their clients and then opening doors to new
sets of clients and new industries. Industries as well. Yeah. So as a follow-up
of that, because I've had a few other guests that have talked about a
(22:33):
similar word of like forecasting, right?
So in terms of like trend forecasting and understanding that,
but what you all are doing in terms of like foresight
and for design futurists is completely different. So can
you break down what's the difference between design— a
design futurist and a design forecaster? So
(22:55):
forecasting— and both are valuable, right? Forecasting is valuable
forecasts are valuable and foresight is valuable. Forecasting tends to be a bit
more specific, right? So it's often short-term. And so
like you mentioned, right, a color forecast, right? They're
really based on current data and trends.
Foresight is more long-term. You're looking at
(23:18):
a diverse set of uncertainties and you're looking at
scenarios that might be unpredictable. And so
instead of being a very specific silo, foresight
takes you down a longer path to look at a series of
scenarios. And again, I said earlier, disparate set of
conditions that you're putting together. I'll use a really
(23:40):
super colloquial term, but you're looking, you're connecting dots
to come out with a series of scenarios that can help
drive a future or drive your actions. And it just allows
the person on the receiving end to be a bit more
proactive. You can't just let the future happen to you.
Foresight gives you more control over a preferred
(24:03):
preferred future for yourself or your organization. Yeah. And then how
does that apply to, say, a manufacturer, right? We talked
about what that looks like for maybe a designer or a design firm.
A lot of my listeners are product manufacturers, so if they're listening,
they're like, okay, how does this apply to us as an organization?
Tell us more about that. So what a manufacturer could do
(24:26):
is look at a set of conditions, right? Look at a set—
you can look at the birth rates are currently going down.
So if I am a manufacturer of anything that's education-based
or K-12-based, and we're seeing trends in—
trends in education are moving in a different direction, and birth rates are going
down, and we're not looking at a massive baby boom headed our
(24:49):
way, I am going to think differently about what classroom needs
might be in the next 5 to 10 years. I will
think differently about product based on what
classroom needs might be. There's going to be an educator
shortage in the next 5 years, you start combining, you start
declining, combining declining birth rates with an
(25:11):
educator shortage. What's that mean for the classroom of
the future? Will classrooms look different? Will they be housed
differently? Will the curriculum look differently? And
so taking a look at different aspects within a cohort
is what strategic foresight would do. So you're combining
demographics, you're combining changes in a
(25:33):
profession, you're combining human attitudes around
around education. We're seeing some of, we're seeing some of that aspect now
where higher ed, for a number of reasons, isn't in the same
favor that it may have been 10 or 20 years ago. But also
we're seeing a boom in junior colleges where people over the age
of 50 are going back to school, back to 2-year programs
(25:56):
for upskilling or reskilling. And so I might, as a
manufacturer, start looking differently, maybe at a cohort I had
never paid attention to with junior colleges or how training is happening in
different aspects, as opposed to the verticals that I might be
embedded in deeply now. I think that
strategic foresight can be particularly helpful for
(26:17):
manufacturers in looking at directions that
we're seeing culturally and socially. I'll use
education as an example, looking at trends
that may seem very disparate, something along the
lines of birth rates. If we know that birth rates are going
down, that's going to affect what enrollment
(26:40):
in school is going to look like in the next 12 to 18 to
26 years. But we also look at this trend that more
of us are returning to 2-year programs, for instance, in junior
colleges, and to be retrained and reskilled, right? We
all need to be upskilled in some way, shape, or form. And there has been
a tremendous explosion in junior colleges. Also, just this
(27:01):
whole idea around what a 4-year degree
is worth, that's also contributing, right, to this explosion in junior
colleges. And so So what forecasting allows, or strategic
foresight allows us to do is look at
a series of what may seem like disparate dots. We're looking at
birth rates, we're looking at education rates, we're looking at
(27:23):
maybe downturns in people even becoming teachers.
You're combining all of these, again, what feels
unrelated facts to look at one solid
picture of what a future might look like. And that's just one scenario.
Yeah. But it's this ability to look at a multiplicity of scenarios,
to look at what a future could be. Yeah, I love that you
(27:46):
broke it down like that, especially on the manufacturer side. I
know as I've worked in sales on the manufacturer side, and a lot of
times I'm always thinking about, okay, what does this design need today? Or— and
that today could look like the next 12 months, but thinking about it
in the future in the way that you just broke it down of, okay, how
is this shifting in so many different points?
(28:08):
How can you design not only for today, but think about the evolution of this,
of the people in that space and how they're going to be interacting or,
or coming to the school or not coming to the school, etc., impacts
the design of the future. So I love that. I need to sign up for
this course. My brain is already going in so many different ways.
And it's not just one thing, right? It's not just data,
(28:32):
it's culture and it's attitudes and it's
behavior. And foresight really gives you a
tool to look at all of these arenas across, across the
board to show that how you can best leverage what you
know now and what scenarios you can put
together for a future to understand that for your business or for
(28:54):
your brand. I love that. And I know, Sheryl, you all just had
your roundtable in January. Before we
go into the last few questions, I would love to, for you to share any
top insights that came out of that, especially for
manufacturers and designers. So we did our— this
is our industry roundtable and we have been doing this for almost
(29:17):
30 years. It is an evergreen IIDA signature
program that we do at headquarters. And the whole premise is we put
manufacturers and designers in a room together in a very kind of
intimate think tank format. And it's to hold forth
on issues that are germane to both designers
and to manufacturers. And so that's really the premise of
(29:38):
IIDA is really this better connection between designers and product
manufacturers, right? Because we are invested in the same industry.
And so this year our topic was demographics and
identity. And so we talked a lot about, again,
this was a lot about attitudes and behaviors, but we had a woman from
Miami of Ohio and she is, she
(30:00):
specializes in demographics and age and
she's written a book called Gentelligence, but it's
leveraging, leveraging a diversity of
ages and how we are best performing with a
multiplicity of Millennials and Gen Xs and
Boomers, right? Because we know the workplace is now filled with
(30:21):
5, almost 6 generations in the workplace.
And as opposed to giving attributes to a
generation like an astrological sign, right? Yeah, I'm a Sagittarius and
a Boomer, right? Uncoupling that. What is it that
each generation brings to work that we can leverage
the value, but also just understanding, again, it's back to attitudes and
(30:43):
behavior. Your understanding what the motivations are,
what inspires certain generations, right? Because we are all different.
We certainly have, based on when we were born and where we
were born and how we grew up, we've been shaped by
so many. And that obviously implies to the
interior environment as well. And so it was a very
(31:04):
lively conversation. And we also had the people
in the room that we were talking about. And I've always been a firm believer,
it's— we're going to sit there and talk about Gen X, then let's have Gen
X in Absolutely. To share that insight as well,
understanding that we are, we are all on the receiving end, but we
also have Gen X and Gen Y designers who are creating
(31:25):
as well. They think about product differently. They think about interiors
differently. They think about the client relationship differently. And
so we had that conversation from the inside out and thinking about all the
ways that generations impact us. And when Dr. Megan Gerhardt
was our specialist and we also had Upali Nanda, who's the head of
research for HKS. But one of the things Dr. Gerhardt Earhart said
(31:48):
that was really impactful for a lot of people, I think, is take a look
around you and look at how many generations you
surround yourselves by. And so she talked about if you're
over 40, chances are, with the exception of your family,
everybody that you hang around with is about the same age.
And so one of the things she talked about is we need to break out
(32:09):
of our age cohorts and making sure that we have a
multi-generational life. Yeah, that's important.
It's important. And I came out of college in 2012 and I
feel like at that point there were so many articles in the
media talking badly about millennials. Everything was
just like stigmas about millennials are this and millennials are that.
(32:32):
And I'm sure Gen Z feels the same right now. So it's really
wonderful when I see topics that are like, okay, let's talk about
multi-generational experiences. Is having each
generation in the room and actually learning from one another.
I'm a person who is mid-30s, a
millennial, but like I have friends that are almost 60. I have friends
(32:55):
that are just straight out of college because I want to learn from the
wiser and also share what I have with younger,
but also people who are 20-something will probably teach me something that
I don't know. Well, it's— I love that you said that. And
it's also that myth-busting because we talked a bit about mentoring
and Everybody thinks that mentors have gray hair,
(33:18):
but mentoring can happen in so many— across.
And that's what we have to remember. And it's that cross-generational, multi-generational
aspect. And so many of us don't live in multi-generational households
anymore. That ability to talk to people in
any age cohort, it just makes you a
(33:38):
broader-minded person. And so living
intergenerationally is— and multi-generational—
is becoming very much a mantra for me. Yeah, absolutely. I love
that. And I look forward to hearing all the insights that continue
to come out of that roundtable and the roundtables to come.
Yep. I'll be excited. We have 28 insights from Industry Roundtable
(34:01):
28 that I'll be able to share with you soon. Okay. I can't
wait. And so, Cheryl, we've talked a lot today
about lots of different topics from the future of design
to the language and shared language. But one of the things
that I don't want miss talking about, especially
as far as the future of the design, is Black and brown
(34:24):
students that are coming up in this industry. I am one of
very few women of color that came out of my interior design
program at Syracuse, but you all are doing some
great work with your Design Your World program at
IIDA. And this is a very critical moment because you're reaching back
to high school students before they even get into design school.
(34:46):
School. So tell me a little bit more about that program and the work that
you all are doing to shape the future of design, especially when it
comes to Black and brown students in our industry. Yep.
Design Your World for us started in 2020. And
so it was a dream of a program that I had for many
years. It came to fruition, unfortunately, at the same time as the
(35:08):
pandemic. So our very first cohort, which we were in
Chicago where IIDA is headquartered, We did it virtually.
And but the objective of the program is to
introduce interior design as a viable career
for folks who are under-championed, under-resourced,
whatever the word is. But and that
(35:31):
doesn't necessarily mean that all of our students are Black and brown,
or it doesn't necessarily mean that this is pointed at Black and brown students.
However, we are well aware of just the
disparity around Black and brown professionals
in our industry. And so it was our goal
to create this program to introduce interior design
(35:53):
as, as a career. It's— it is a viable career
pursuit where you can make a living, you can be happy and healthy.
And we very deliberately called it Design Your World because we
wanted our students to look around at their world to
see how design could make an impact on their world. And so we are
in Chicago, St. Louis, Miami,
(36:15):
and Dallas. And so program is alive and well
and it's been going on now. We're moving into our 6th year.
We now have over a dozen of our
alumni who are in undergraduate programs in
design and architecture. We're playing the long game with
this. And so slowly but surely, we are seeing our
(36:37):
students come through school and then enter into
careers in design. We have support from a phenomenal number
of partners like OFA, West in Mannington
on the manufacturing side, and then firms like Jacobs and
Gensler and Perkins and Will are supporting us. And it's,
it, it's incredible to see students
(37:00):
have this access to interior design
as a career. And it is important for us to give these students
tools because even if they never decide to major in interior design and
architecture, they— or architecture, they still have had this
introduction to this profession. But
learning about how to assess and
(37:21):
think and critically think like a designer is
important to this program. And keeping these students connected
to one another so that they see one another and so that they see
Black and brown professionals thriving and
succeeding. And then also giving them the tools to talk about design. The
very first people that many of— we're learning from many of these students
(37:44):
is when they tell a parent or a guardian, I am interested in
design as a career, they're told, nope,
that's not what, that's not what we do. Yeah, absolutely. And then if
anybody's listening and they're like, I love the mission, I want to support,
I want to help the students, how can they be involved?
Go to iida.org, to our website, or Google
(38:07):
Design Your World. We are always looking for support. We're
looking for volunteers to help us. We've got a really great
curriculum. We always want more manufacturers to help sponsor.
And the way that we can move this program to additional cities
aside from the 4 that we are in is through sponsor and manufacturer
support. Awesome. Sheryl, it has been a pleasure
(38:30):
having you on the show and sharing a little bit about your personal journey
and aha moments, um, like memories from your childhood,
memories from being a teacher and how that really impacted how
you saw the world of design all the way till now and
how you are shaping different areas of the design industry,
from the design futurism to the program for
(38:53):
the students. I'm just here for all of it. And I can't wait
to continue connecting and also be a supporter. Oh,
Cheryl, if anyone wants to connect with IIDA, be a member, or
even connect with you, where can they find you all online?
www.iida.org. You can reach
out to me personally via LinkedIn or Instagram. Instagram. All
(39:15):
right, Cheryl, thank you so much for being a part of the show. It's been
a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much, Nicole. This
was great. It went by too quickly. If today's episode
sparked ideas, the next step is giving those ideas
structure. Spec Ready is Thriving Design's strategic
framework designed to help interior product brands show up
(39:37):
clearly, align marketing and sales, and become easy
easier to specify without adding more noise or
complexity. You can learn more at specready.co.
And if you'd like to continue the conversation, be sure to follow the
podcast and check out the show notes for links, resources, and
ways to get in touch with our team. Thanks for listening to the Thriving Design
(39:58):
Podcast. I'll see you next time.
It is not passive. It is a driver for your business goals. It is a
driver for success. It is a driver for equity and
belonging. It is a driver for revenue. Human beings need to stand
for something, and design is something
that, although we are often passionate about the
practice of design, articulating the meaning of design
(00:22):
has always been something that has been critical to me and to my
career. Welcome to the Thrive
and Design Podcast, the show for interior product brands
ready to turn insight into action. I'm your host,
Nicole Lashae Hall, founder of Thrive and Design. Each
week we explore how manufacturers, marketers, and
(00:44):
sales leaders can align strategy, storytelling, and systems
to drive real specification growth. This podcast is about
moving beyond scattered marketing, outdated sales tactics,
and visibility for visibility's sake, and into clarity
alignment, and momentum. Whether you're navigating change,
scaling thoughtfully, or rethinking how your brand shows up in the
(01:06):
design industry, you're in the right place.
Welcome back to another episode of the Thriving Design
Podcast. I'm your host, Nicole Lashae Hall, CEO and founder of Thriving
Design, where we help interior product companies expand their influence and
revenue through human-centered design, strategy, and leadership. I'm
(01:29):
honored to welcome an extraordinary leader, Cheryl Durst,
Executive Vice President and CEO of the International
Interior Design Association, also known as
IIDA. A visionary strategist, an exceptional
communicator, Cheryl has spent her career expanding the
role of interior design, advocating for its value not just
(01:50):
as an aesthetic discipline, but as a critical driver
of business equity and societal impact. Under
Cheryl's leadership, IIDA supports more than 15,000
members across 58 countries, advancing
global conversations around design excellence,
advocacy, education, and community. Widely
(02:12):
recognized as an ambassador for innovation and expansion, Cheryl
made history as the first African American woman inducted into the
Interior Design Hall of Fame, receiving its inaugural
leadership award Award in 2016. She
also serves as the International Well Building Institute
Governance Council and as a trustee for
(02:33):
Chicago's Museum of Contemporary Art and the New
York School of Interior Design. In today's episode, we move
beyond buzzwords to explore what it truly means to
expand the role of design from leadership and advocacy
to measurable business impact. We'll dive into Cheryl's
perspective on the future of the industry, the intangible skills
(02:55):
designers need to thrive, and how thoughtful design can shape
healthier, more equitable environments. This is a conversation
every design leader should hear. So let's dive in. Welcome to the show,
Sheryl. It's a pleasure to have you here. Hi, Nicole. That was,
that's always interesting hearing about yourself before you're, before you're
jumping into a conversation. So thank you for that. Yes, absolutely.
(03:18):
So Cheryl, let's frame this conversation and share a little
bit about you, a little bit more about you. I know we just
read your introduction, but you spent decades
advocating for the value of design.
Tell me a little bit more about your journey and why do you think design
is still often reduced to the aesthetics instead of
(03:40):
recognized as a strategic business and human-centered
discipline? Let me hit this from a couple of touchpoints. I,
I came to my role as the CEO of
IADA. I've worked in this industry for over 30
years, started my career in design in Washington,
D.C. I worked for the Washington Design Center, which was a
(04:01):
component of the Merchandise Mart, but in Washington, D.C., I
headed up education and programming for designers there.
Prior to that, I was a high school teacher. I am not a designer. My
background is in journalism and economics. I'm a I'm a writer at heart,
but I've always been a believer in education
and optimism and advocacy. Human beings need to
(04:25):
stand for something, and design is something
that, although we are often passionate about the
practice of design, articulating the meaning of design
has always been something that, that has been critical to me and
to my career. How do we talk about design and what does it mean?
Most people who aren't designers kind of default to
(04:47):
aesthetics And there's absolutely nothing wrong with aesthetics and beauty, but
design is so much more than that. And so
helping, helping human beings understand, and then ultimately
from a business standpoint, the C-suite, people who are
consuming design services, helping them understand that
design is a driver, right? It is not a path. It is not passive.
(05:09):
It is a driver for your business goals. It is a driver for success.
It is a driver for equity and belonging. It is
a driver for revenue. And so having those conversations
around the impact of design and not just on the bottom
line, but its impact on humanity has always been intrinsic
to my career. And so obviously it ultimately, ultimately led me
(05:31):
to— I started with IIDA as the director of education, became
CEO after about 3 years at the association. And so those
pillars of optimism and advocacy
and just the narrative around design have always been central to
the work that I've done. I love that. And I'm wondering if— did you ever
have this aha moment about design
(05:53):
and I guess its impact on the world, especially coming from
education, right? You were a high school teacher and you
transitioned into this industry. So what was your aha moment of,
oh, like, this is the impact that design is
having on the world? You cannot
separate the impact that place
(06:16):
has on people, right? I remember as a child
hearing my mom, who was a scientist, a microbiologist,
would talk— geography is destiny. And she was talking about that from
a health context. She specialized in infectious diseases,
and she was talking about it from a health context. I always thought about
it as we are informed by the places that we
(06:39):
inhabit, and whether that is from an
ancestral context or particularly from a learning standpoint,
—my father was an educator. And so when I taught
in D.C., I had a freshman homeroom, and
I had a class of 40 students, but
I had 32 desks. And so I
(07:01):
remember a group of students walking into that classroom, and
immediately, what does that tell you? What did that tell them when
there wasn't a place for them to sit? What does that immediately
make you feel like? And so that was a grounding moment for me. But
even as a child growing up, I spent a lot of time a lot of
time with my grandparents, and I remember what it felt like to be in their
(07:22):
home. I remember the first time my grandmother took me to a library
and what that space felt like. I took art classes as a
child and that sense of awe and wonder and curiosity that
I had walking into a museum. And so this really
soul-deep connection between people and place has always
been something that has interested me, intrigued me, and
(07:44):
also inspired me. Yeah. And I love the memories tied to, to
place too. When I was in design school, we had to do this project, like
what was our third place, right? Outside of home,
outside of school. What was that third place that we have so many memories
tied to and designing based on that inspiration? So
that's what your story reminds me of. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah,
(08:07):
place storytelling is fascinating. And I think everybody
has a story about that first place. You talked about third places, but
what's that first place that we remember as a child
or that first place that had impact on us. And it's
anywhere from familial to, to cultural, but nostalgia,
super powerful. And the power of memories to impact us
(08:30):
is incredible. And it's often tied to place. Yeah, I love that.
And so with design and in your role at IIDA
now, like you're touching a lot of the world
really. Yeah. In so many places, so many types
of design. Types of design, so many
stakeholders in the design process, right? Yeah.
(08:52):
Yeah. So with design serving so many different
stakeholders, far too many to list and name in the time
that we have, right? From end users to business leaders to
manufacturers, where do you see the biggest disconnect in how we talk about
design's value across that ecosystem?
Oh, I love this question. It's a complex one
(09:14):
because I was educated as
journalist. Words matter. And I often think
that the lexicon and vocabulary that we often
have in design further
allows design to be mystified. And
thinking about what people respond to, but thinking about how
(09:36):
often designers need to translate
language for clients or customers. And I think about
the connection between, particularly in commercial design,
between designers and the C-suite. And very often
you are communicating with someone who has business
objectives in mind and they haven't considered design
(09:58):
as a business objective. And so using our words in
our vocabulary to make sure that C-suite or
business owners are understanding the
outcomes of design, right? Because people have to get beyond
kind of that immediate surface level. And so again, that's often
the conversation stops at beauty, stops at aesthetics.
(10:20):
There's often been the belief that design is a luxury as
opposed to necessity. And so when we start using words
like impact and bottom line and return on investment,
I'm not talking about diminishing the
power of beauty. We don't ever want to do that. So I think
that designers need to be part-time linguists as well
(10:43):
as we are talking about the deep impact of design,
but also realizing design needs to be paid for. It needs to be
championed and it needs to be paid for. And some those best champions
around design and change, right? Because that's
another powerful word that we can use when you're talking to a business
owner about change and the built environment. And so thinking
(11:05):
about those very simple words that all point to the
impact that design has, not necessarily the
cost of design, right? Because the minute people start thinking about beauty and
aesthetics, that takes you to luxury and that takes you to expensive.
Yeah. And we need to think about the impact to support
human beings and and also to support change in an
(11:27):
organization and change within people. Yeah. And it's really interesting that
you break it down like that, especially for me as someone who went to
interior design school, you actually don't learn the ling— the
linguistics behind what you just said. Out of design school
is okay, you are in foundations and you're learning the foundation of
fine art. And then you start your design core
(11:49):
curriculum and you're learning, I guess, like programming and problem
solving, depending on what vertical you're focusing on for that class.
And ultimately creating the designs. But a lot of what you just said is
not taught in design school in terms of understanding the ROI,
understanding the impact of your design and how you are
articulating that to different stakeholders in the
(12:12):
design process, especially the ones that are paying the money,
right? Yeah. Yeah. How, how have you seen
that important language learned or
adopted in our industry? So I think about healthcare
design in particular. And when you hear
healthcare designers talking about evidence-based design,
(12:34):
that immediately speaks to hospital
administrators, that immediately speaks to folks who are
dealing with risk and liability and risk management or reducing
liability as well as patient care. So I think
that terminology— and I'm not talking about sugarcoating and making up
words, but design is research-based. It
(12:55):
is rigorous, right? There is order and
rigor and import to the work that design
does on behalf of humanity. And so
it's aggregating those words and that terminology
to better build a case for design because unfortunately
we continually need to build a case for our
(13:19):
profession and build a case for the work that we do as
designers. And it doesn't mean being on necessarily
being offensive, but it is— we are as viable
as any other profession. I think sometimes though,
it— what makes it difficult for people to 100%
wrap their heads around design is it is not only are
(13:41):
we touching the physical human being, there's a part of it that's
the soul. It's really hard to qualify and
quantify the impact that we have on the soul of human
beings to create change. And so I keep coming back. I probably, if
you could turn this into a drinking game, how many times I use the word
impact, but thinking about how we articulate impact.
(14:03):
And so metrics would be one way. Absolutely. Metrics and
analytics would be another. I think case studies are
so valuable for designers to show that evidence
of what we do and how that can change an organization or
change what an organization is doing. And then
belonging is another part of that conversation. I think what has helped
(14:26):
us, at least in the last certainly since the pandemic,
is the emphasis on well-being, physical well-being,
emotional well-being, spaces that are safe
for human beings to thrive in, not just live in, but thrive
in. I think the conversation around emotional well-being
has tremendously helped the profession of interior design, supported
(14:48):
the profession of interior design. Yeah. And with all of those different
topics and words One of the things that we talked about in our
initial conversation was a common language or a
shared language for the— shared language. Yeah. Yeah. Whether that's
wellness, inclusion, belonging, strategy,
ROI, or impact even. I guess, how
(15:10):
would you like to see all of our stakeholders sharing
a common language when it comes to creating an understanding about the
design process? So I think it's also this, this
idea, design is a multiplicity of things, right? And specifically
we are of talking about interior design. It's an art, it's a
science, and it's a business. And I think there is
(15:33):
already a pretty clear understanding around
the artfulness of interiors. I think
there is less understanding around the science
of interior design. And so that was talking about data,
talking about metrics, but making that data human, letting that data
tell a story. And then I think where we sometimes
(15:55):
lose people or people who aren't quite closing that gap is around
interior design as a business. And so that means
interior designers need to be really proficient in
this talking of this three-legged stool and talking about
interiors design specifically, and interior specifically as
an art, a science, and a business. Yeah. And helping,
(16:17):
helping their clients understand that. For me,
design is about what happens on the receiving end. And so
how do we start talking about the language of
outcomes? How are we using the language of outcomes
to explain what we do and the value of what we do. Yeah,
I want to see like more business classes and interior design programs
(16:39):
to get that language. Definitely starting to see this
trend in more designers from a
postgraduate standpoint pursuing master's. So an MBA,
starting to see more designers go down that path. It
is fairly difficult to double major in interior design and
business from an undergraduate standpoint because the undergraduate graduate
(17:01):
curriculum for designers, there's so much depth and breadth, there often isn't
room for undergraduate interior designer to even breathe, let alone thinking
about double majoring. But definitely seeing more
interior design students minoring in business, but also
minoring in psychology, sociology. And
so those, what once upon a time I think people called those softer sciences,
(17:23):
but those sciences arrayed around human behavior, because that's
the other piece of this, right? Design isn't about things.
Design is about people. Interior design is about people and how they
are interacting and behaving and living and thriving in an
interior environment. And so having that understanding of human
behavior is just so intrinsic. I— my
(17:46):
gut tells me, and this is starting to happen, I know this conversation is
happening from a curriculum standpoint, that interior design
really does merit a 5-year program. It does.
It does for all of those topics that you just mentioned.
And so with the industry evolving, we see a lot of different like
factors impacting the industry. We've gone through a
(18:09):
pandemic, right? And people are looking towards the future
as well. So not only thinking about this like shared language that
we're talking about, but what does the future look like? With
IIDA, you all have a Certified Design
Futurist program that I stumbled across a few times
and I'm like, good. I'm like, what is this all about?
(18:30):
Yeah. Yeah. It signals a shift towards foresight as a design
capability. If you've seen cycles come and go, you know what
matters isn't trends, it's what lasts. SpecReady is
a readiness framework that helps interior product brands create
clarity, alignment, and systems that don't rely on constant
pushing or reinvention. It gives teams a shared language and
(18:53):
structure structure so the brand continues to show up clearly and
competitively, even as leadership evolves. And
for perspective on how AI fits into the industry's future
without the noise, the AI in Design Summit offers
thoughtful, practical insight grounded in real business
realities. Learn more at specready.co and
(19:14):
tidsummit.com.
So how do you define foresight in practice and what
changes when firms begin offering it as a service?
We really are looking at our certified design futurist
curriculum about expanding a
(19:36):
competency for interior designers. And you and I have heard these
conversations about other professions picking
away at design. We certainly see design
thinking as a term that is used, bandied about,
people will say, hire me, I'm a design thinker, whatever that might
mean. But we certainly know that there are consultants out
(19:58):
there who are using design or leveraging design
strategy, maybe without having a professional background in design. And
then we see— we are seeing end users and clients hiring
design strategists as opposed to professional interior designers.
And thinking about this in terms of a professional interior design organization,
it was all about what can we do to expand the current
(20:20):
competencies of interior designers and looking the future. And
foresight is something that designers use all the time, whether
they realize it or not. When you are creating the built
environment, when you're creating an interior environment, you're not just doing it for
the now of that client, you're doing it for their next. And so there's
always been this rigorous thought about what's
(20:42):
next for your clients, even though the client may not be deeply invested in it.
And so strategic foresight is a very
structured, systematic discipline that
is used to explore and anticipate
for multiple futures for a brand or for an
organization. And so it's not about foretelling, it's
(21:04):
not about, it's not a crystal ball, it's not about being
predictive, but you're analyzing a disparate
set of signals and possible disruptions
to your future that allows you to be proactive in decision-making.
It's very processed and organized. There's a process, there's a
methodology. Which design in and of itself has a process and a
(21:26):
methodology. But it was something for IIDA that it just made sense
that it was a skill set that we could further enhance and develop
for designers. And we have this 10-week course that is an
introduction to strategic foresight. Yeah, there are firms
out there because an engagement with a
designer or a design firm may not necessarily end
(21:48):
in a built environment. It may end up in a new way of
thinking for an organization or a new set of tools
tools or resources to do something different to drive your future.
And so looking at the consulting side of design or a
consultancy, it could evolve into a change in the built environment.
But firms who are using this with their clients are finding
(22:10):
that they are keeping those clients longer. They're involved in
deeper, more strategic organizations from the top of the organization.
And so it's helping firms build longer-term
relationships with their clients and then opening doors to new
sets of clients and new industries. Industries as well. Yeah. So as a follow-up
of that, because I've had a few other guests that have talked about a
(22:33):
similar word of like forecasting, right?
So in terms of like trend forecasting and understanding that,
but what you all are doing in terms of like foresight
and for design futurists is completely different. So can
you break down what's the difference between design— a
design futurist and a design forecaster? So
(22:55):
forecasting— and both are valuable, right? Forecasting is valuable
forecasts are valuable and foresight is valuable. Forecasting tends to be a bit
more specific, right? So it's often short-term. And so
like you mentioned, right, a color forecast, right? They're
really based on current data and trends.
Foresight is more long-term. You're looking at
(23:18):
a diverse set of uncertainties and you're looking at
scenarios that might be unpredictable. And so
instead of being a very specific silo, foresight
takes you down a longer path to look at a series of
scenarios. And again, I said earlier, disparate set of
conditions that you're putting together. I'll use a really
(23:40):
super colloquial term, but you're looking, you're connecting dots
to come out with a series of scenarios that can help
drive a future or drive your actions. And it just allows
the person on the receiving end to be a bit more
proactive. You can't just let the future happen to you.
Foresight gives you more control over a preferred
(24:03):
preferred future for yourself or your organization. Yeah. And then how
does that apply to, say, a manufacturer, right? We talked
about what that looks like for maybe a designer or a design firm.
A lot of my listeners are product manufacturers, so if they're listening,
they're like, okay, how does this apply to us as an organization?
Tell us more about that. So what a manufacturer could do
(24:26):
is look at a set of conditions, right? Look at a set—
you can look at the birth rates are currently going down.
So if I am a manufacturer of anything that's education-based
or K-12-based, and we're seeing trends in—
trends in education are moving in a different direction, and birth rates are going
down, and we're not looking at a massive baby boom headed our
(24:49):
way, I am going to think differently about what classroom needs
might be in the next 5 to 10 years. I will
think differently about product based on what
classroom needs might be. There's going to be an educator
shortage in the next 5 years, you start combining, you start
declining, combining declining birth rates with an
(25:11):
educator shortage. What's that mean for the classroom of
the future? Will classrooms look different? Will they be housed
differently? Will the curriculum look differently? And
so taking a look at different aspects within a cohort
is what strategic foresight would do. So you're combining
demographics, you're combining changes in a
(25:33):
profession, you're combining human attitudes around
around education. We're seeing some of, we're seeing some of that aspect now
where higher ed, for a number of reasons, isn't in the same
favor that it may have been 10 or 20 years ago. But also
we're seeing a boom in junior colleges where people over the age
of 50 are going back to school, back to 2-year programs
(25:56):
for upskilling or reskilling. And so I might, as a
manufacturer, start looking differently, maybe at a cohort I had
never paid attention to with junior colleges or how training is happening in
different aspects, as opposed to the verticals that I might be
embedded in deeply now. I think that
strategic foresight can be particularly helpful for
(26:17):
manufacturers in looking at directions that
we're seeing culturally and socially. I'll use
education as an example, looking at trends
that may seem very disparate, something along the
lines of birth rates. If we know that birth rates are going
down, that's going to affect what enrollment
(26:40):
in school is going to look like in the next 12 to 18 to
26 years. But we also look at this trend that more
of us are returning to 2-year programs, for instance, in junior
colleges, and to be retrained and reskilled, right? We
all need to be upskilled in some way, shape, or form. And there has been
a tremendous explosion in junior colleges. Also, just this
(27:01):
whole idea around what a 4-year degree
is worth, that's also contributing, right, to this explosion in junior
colleges. And so So what forecasting allows, or strategic
foresight allows us to do is look at
a series of what may seem like disparate dots. We're looking at
birth rates, we're looking at education rates, we're looking at
(27:23):
maybe downturns in people even becoming teachers.
You're combining all of these, again, what feels
unrelated facts to look at one solid
picture of what a future might look like. And that's just one scenario.
Yeah. But it's this ability to look at a multiplicity of scenarios,
to look at what a future could be. Yeah, I love that you
(27:46):
broke it down like that, especially on the manufacturer side. I
know as I've worked in sales on the manufacturer side, and a lot of
times I'm always thinking about, okay, what does this design need today? Or— and
that today could look like the next 12 months, but thinking about it
in the future in the way that you just broke it down of, okay, how
is this shifting in so many different points?
(28:08):
How can you design not only for today, but think about the evolution of this,
of the people in that space and how they're going to be interacting or,
or coming to the school or not coming to the school, etc., impacts
the design of the future. So I love that. I need to sign up for
this course. My brain is already going in so many different ways.
And it's not just one thing, right? It's not just data,
(28:32):
it's culture and it's attitudes and it's
behavior. And foresight really gives you a
tool to look at all of these arenas across, across the
board to show that how you can best leverage what you
know now and what scenarios you can put
together for a future to understand that for your business or for
(28:54):
your brand. I love that. And I know, Sheryl, you all just had
your roundtable in January. Before we
go into the last few questions, I would love to, for you to share any
top insights that came out of that, especially for
manufacturers and designers. So we did our— this
is our industry roundtable and we have been doing this for almost
(29:17):
30 years. It is an evergreen IIDA signature
program that we do at headquarters. And the whole premise is we put
manufacturers and designers in a room together in a very kind of
intimate think tank format. And it's to hold forth
on issues that are germane to both designers
and to manufacturers. And so that's really the premise of
(29:38):
IIDA is really this better connection between designers and product
manufacturers, right? Because we are invested in the same industry.
And so this year our topic was demographics and
identity. And so we talked a lot about, again,
this was a lot about attitudes and behaviors, but we had a woman from
Miami of Ohio and she is, she
(30:00):
specializes in demographics and age and
she's written a book called Gentelligence, but it's
leveraging, leveraging a diversity of
ages and how we are best performing with a
multiplicity of Millennials and Gen Xs and
Boomers, right? Because we know the workplace is now filled with
(30:21):
5, almost 6 generations in the workplace.
And as opposed to giving attributes to a
generation like an astrological sign, right? Yeah, I'm a Sagittarius and
a Boomer, right? Uncoupling that. What is it that
each generation brings to work that we can leverage
the value, but also just understanding, again, it's back to attitudes and
(30:43):
behavior. Your understanding what the motivations are,
what inspires certain generations, right? Because we are all different.
We certainly have, based on when we were born and where we
were born and how we grew up, we've been shaped by
so many. And that obviously implies to the
interior environment as well. And so it was a very
(31:04):
lively conversation. And we also had the people
in the room that we were talking about. And I've always been a firm believer,
it's— we're going to sit there and talk about Gen X, then let's have Gen
X in Absolutely. To share that insight as well,
understanding that we are, we are all on the receiving end, but we
also have Gen X and Gen Y designers who are creating
(31:25):
as well. They think about product differently. They think about interiors
differently. They think about the client relationship differently. And
so we had that conversation from the inside out and thinking about all the
ways that generations impact us. And when Dr. Megan Gerhardt
was our specialist and we also had Upali Nanda, who's the head of
research for HKS. But one of the things Dr. Gerhardt Earhart said
(31:48):
that was really impactful for a lot of people, I think, is take a look
around you and look at how many generations you
surround yourselves by. And so she talked about if you're
over 40, chances are, with the exception of your family,
everybody that you hang around with is about the same age.
And so one of the things she talked about is we need to break out
(32:09):
of our age cohorts and making sure that we have a
multi-generational life. Yeah, that's important.
It's important. And I came out of college in 2012 and I
feel like at that point there were so many articles in the
media talking badly about millennials. Everything was
just like stigmas about millennials are this and millennials are that.
(32:32):
And I'm sure Gen Z feels the same right now. So it's really
wonderful when I see topics that are like, okay, let's talk about
multi-generational experiences. Is having each
generation in the room and actually learning from one another.
I'm a person who is mid-30s, a
millennial, but like I have friends that are almost 60. I have friends
(32:55):
that are just straight out of college because I want to learn from the
wiser and also share what I have with younger,
but also people who are 20-something will probably teach me something that
I don't know. Well, it's— I love that you said that. And
it's also that myth-busting because we talked a bit about mentoring
and Everybody thinks that mentors have gray hair,
(33:18):
but mentoring can happen in so many— across.
And that's what we have to remember. And it's that cross-generational, multi-generational
aspect. And so many of us don't live in multi-generational households
anymore. That ability to talk to people in
any age cohort, it just makes you a
(33:38):
broader-minded person. And so living
intergenerationally is— and multi-generational—
is becoming very much a mantra for me. Yeah, absolutely. I love
that. And I look forward to hearing all the insights that continue
to come out of that roundtable and the roundtables to come.
Yep. I'll be excited. We have 28 insights from Industry Roundtable
(34:01):
28 that I'll be able to share with you soon. Okay. I can't
wait. And so, Cheryl, we've talked a lot today
about lots of different topics from the future of design
to the language and shared language. But one of the things
that I don't want miss talking about, especially
as far as the future of the design, is Black and brown
(34:24):
students that are coming up in this industry. I am one of
very few women of color that came out of my interior design
program at Syracuse, but you all are doing some
great work with your Design Your World program at
IIDA. And this is a very critical moment because you're reaching back
to high school students before they even get into design school.
(34:46):
School. So tell me a little bit more about that program and the work that
you all are doing to shape the future of design, especially when it
comes to Black and brown students in our industry. Yep.
Design Your World for us started in 2020. And
so it was a dream of a program that I had for many
years. It came to fruition, unfortunately, at the same time as the
(35:08):
pandemic. So our very first cohort, which we were in
Chicago where IIDA is headquartered, We did it virtually.
And but the objective of the program is to
introduce interior design as a viable career
for folks who are under-championed, under-resourced,
whatever the word is. But and that
(35:31):
doesn't necessarily mean that all of our students are Black and brown,
or it doesn't necessarily mean that this is pointed at Black and brown students.
However, we are well aware of just the
disparity around Black and brown professionals
in our industry. And so it was our goal
to create this program to introduce interior design
(35:53):
as, as a career. It's— it is a viable career
pursuit where you can make a living, you can be happy and healthy.
And we very deliberately called it Design Your World because we
wanted our students to look around at their world to
see how design could make an impact on their world. And so we are
in Chicago, St. Louis, Miami,
(36:15):
and Dallas. And so program is alive and well
and it's been going on now. We're moving into our 6th year.
We now have over a dozen of our
alumni who are in undergraduate programs in
design and architecture. We're playing the long game with
this. And so slowly but surely, we are seeing our
(36:37):
students come through school and then enter into
careers in design. We have support from a phenomenal number
of partners like OFA, West in Mannington
on the manufacturing side, and then firms like Jacobs and
Gensler and Perkins and Will are supporting us. And it's,
it, it's incredible to see students
(37:00):
have this access to interior design
as a career. And it is important for us to give these students
tools because even if they never decide to major in interior design and
architecture, they— or architecture, they still have had this
introduction to this profession. But
learning about how to assess and
(37:21):
think and critically think like a designer is
important to this program. And keeping these students connected
to one another so that they see one another and so that they see
Black and brown professionals thriving and
succeeding. And then also giving them the tools to talk about design. The
very first people that many of— we're learning from many of these students
(37:44):
is when they tell a parent or a guardian, I am interested in
design as a career, they're told, nope,
that's not what, that's not what we do. Yeah, absolutely. And then if
anybody's listening and they're like, I love the mission, I want to support,
I want to help the students, how can they be involved?
Go to iida.org, to our website, or Google
(38:07):
Design Your World. We are always looking for support. We're
looking for volunteers to help us. We've got a really great
curriculum. We always want more manufacturers to help sponsor.
And the way that we can move this program to additional cities
aside from the 4 that we are in is through sponsor and manufacturer
support. Awesome. Sheryl, it has been a pleasure
(38:30):
having you on the show and sharing a little bit about your personal journey
and aha moments, um, like memories from your childhood,
memories from being a teacher and how that really impacted how
you saw the world of design all the way till now and
how you are shaping different areas of the design industry,
from the design futurism to the program for
(38:53):
the students. I'm just here for all of it. And I can't wait
to continue connecting and also be a supporter. Oh,
Cheryl, if anyone wants to connect with IIDA, be a member, or
even connect with you, where can they find you all online?
www.iida.org. You can reach
out to me personally via LinkedIn or Instagram. Instagram. All
(39:15):
right, Cheryl, thank you so much for being a part of the show. It's been
a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much, Nicole. This
was great. It went by too quickly. If today's episode
sparked ideas, the next step is giving those ideas
structure. Spec Ready is Thriving Design's strategic
framework designed to help interior product brands show up
(39:37):
clearly, align marketing and sales, and become easy
easier to specify without adding more noise or
complexity. You can learn more at specready.co.
And if you'd like to continue the conversation, be sure to follow the
podcast and check out the show notes for links, resources, and
ways to get in touch with our team. Thanks for listening to the Thriving Design
(39:58):
Podcast. I'll see you next time.
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