Barry Greenfield, Singer-Songwriter-Episode #374

Barry Greenfield began his musical ride in 1965 when he was just 15 years old. Over the subsequent decades, Barry has become a greatly appreciated, old-school, singer songwriter, with three number one records, twenty-five plus covers, and life as a touring musician and storyteller. 

He actually walked away from the music business in the mid-70s saying, “it’s not for me,” and yet he remained a dedicated songwriter and performer, releasing twelve LP’s while sharing his music with audiences everywhere.   

Barry’s autobiography, My Journey to Blue Sky, was recently published by New Haven Publishing. It covers the intimate details of his professional years, including, standing on the shoulders of various giants that he has known or worked with, like Cher, John Lennon, Larry Carlton, Supertramp, Kenny Rogers, Harry Nilsson, 10cc, and more. 

Barry’s classic album, Blue Sky, released by RCA, has reached its 50th anniversary. And now with his book, Barry reveals the life changing experiences he received while attending the ‘music school’ of the real world in those halcyon days of 1963 to 1975. Barry learned everything by listening, watching, and questioning. 

Please be sure to stick around at the end of the show for a very special treat.  Barry has graciously lent us his powerful hit song, “New York is Closed Tonight.,” which we’ll play for everyone to enjoy.  After 9/11, CNN played “New York is Closed Tonight,” juxtaposed to what was happening to the twin towers. 

Episode Transcript

Steve Cu (00:00):
On today's Story Beat.
To be successful in anything, whether it's beinglore or architecture or driving a bus, have
courage to stick to your guns. And if you knowit's right, follow that route. And if you know
it's wrong, turn around and walk backwards.
This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden A podcast forthe creative mind, StoryBeat explores how masters

(00:26):
of creativity develop and produce brilliant worksthat people everywhere love and admire. So join us
as we discover how. Talented creators find successin the worlds of imagination and entertainment.
Here now is your host, Steve Cuden

(00:48):
Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We're comingto you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania. My guest today, Barry Greenfield,began his musical ride in 1965 when he was just 15
years old. Over the subsequent decades, Barry hasbecome a greatly appreciated old school singer
songwriter. With three number one records, 25 pluscovers, and life as a touring musician and

(01:13):
storyteller. He actually walked away from themusic business in the mid-70s saying, it's not for
me. And yet he remained a dedicated songwriter andperformer, releasing 12 LPs while sharing his
music with audiences everywhere. Barry'sautobiography, My Journey to Blue sky was recently
published by New Haven Publishing. It covers theintimate details of his professional years,

(01:35):
including standing on the shoulders of variousgiants that he has known or worked with, like
Cher, John Lennon, Larry Carlton, Supertramp,Kenny Rogers, Harry Nilsson, 10cc and more.
Barry's classic album Blue sky, released by RCA,has reached its 50th anniversary. And now with his

(01:56):
book, Barry reveals the life changing experienceshe received while attending the music school of
the real world. In those halcyon days of 1963 to1975, Barry learned everything by listening,
watching and questioning. Please be sure to stickaround at the end of the show for a very special
treat. Barry has graciously lent us his powerfulhit song, New York is Closed Tonight, which we'll

(02:22):
play for everyone to enjoy. So for all thosereasons and many more, I'm truly honored to
welcome to Story Beat the deeply talented singer,songwriter, and now author, Barry Greenfield.
Barry, thanks so much for joining me.
It's an honor and a pleasure to be here, Steve.
I'm really looking forward to this talk.
Well, you and me both. so let's go back in timejust a little bit. You've been writing and

(02:45):
performing since you were very young. How did allthis musical magic begin? What brought you to
music in the first place?
I was born in, very late 1950 in Manchester. Andthe first musical stuff that I recall was being 3,
4, and 5, and listening to people like PetulaClark, a very well known English, popster called

(03:08):
Frankie Vaughan, sort of an Elvis type M, thenCliff Richards. And I just really connected with
music. But it really all began, like so many ofus, with Please, please me in 1963. And that's
when everything became possible for me because Isaw that songwriting was a way to talk from the

(03:30):
heart to the world, in four minute segments. Andit suits my, my ability. And I just began walking
down that path. And just to add a bit more clarityto it, the reason I've become a songwriter and
remain a songwriter is because I'm extremelyunmusical. So when I heard a song like, love me

(03:51):
do, or you can't do that or bus Stop, I couldnever work out how to play it. Just couldn't find
it or get close to it. So I started writing my ownsongs based on famous titles. And that led me to
writing original music with my own titles.
So I think you're the most musical, unmusicalperson ever.

(04:13):
No, I am, know my strengths. I'm a, lyricist and Ispeak from the heart. I think if you try to write
for the radio or you try to write for dollars,you're not going to write purity. But if you
write, I think that's right, like John Lennonwrites. If you write like George Harrison writes,

(04:36):
if you write like, John Denver wrote, you've got85% of it there.
So what first inspired you? Was it please pleaseme? That's what first got you to think about
writing music?
Yeah, I was living in Africa in those days and Igot the newspaper and they made a big deal that

(04:59):
there's, a transition going on in this world withthe Beatles. From there were singers at one area
like, Frankie Avalon and then songwriters likeCarole King and people like that. And then now
they were homogenized and now their songs arewritten by the people singing them, in this case
the Beatles, which of course led to everybodythinking they could write songs, which is

(05:21):
definitely not true. It's very.
Well, it's definitely very hard to write a song.
Very hard to write a song indeed.

Barry Greenfield (05:28):
Yes.
All right. So for many, music is a calling. Is it?
So for you, do you think it was a calling to you?
Well, yes, of course, but I consider myself a TuneSmith, a songwriter, a Cole porter, Paul
McCartney. I consider musicians like Larry Carltonand people that I work with that are way, way, way

(05:52):
stronger on their instrument than me, but can'twrite a Song. So I see it as like, if you're
looking at a British, ah, football game, this iscenter forward and they're a goalie. And they're
both really important, but they do differentthings. So what I do is I write songs and then I
struggle to sing them. And because I've done somuch of it, I've developed timbre and a sound that

(06:15):
is unique and works really well. But that was justfrom trial and error.
Well, there's no question your sound is unique.
You sound like no one else. And so, that's both inthe way that you write songs and the way you sing
them. You have a very unique sounding voice. Howlong was it before, as you were writing, how long
was it before you thought to yourself, you knowwhat? I am pretty good at doing this. Did it take

(06:38):
a while?
I was two years in, I was 17. And the only peopleI played my song was for were my sister and my
mother and my father. And of course they'rebiased, but they love them. So I was 17 years old
and I walked to the freeway and I hitchhiked forthree days and three nights to Los Angeles. And I

(07:01):
checked into a hotel, which I think was called theCome On In. And I, got the Yellow Pages. And I
walked around Los Angeles and Hollywood and SunsetStrip. You probably went to visit maybe. memory
serves me right, between 10 and 15 publishers, andnone of them signed me up or offered me anything,

(07:23):
but they all said, you've got something, kid, andwe really respect the fact that you hitchhiked
here. So I then got the Greyhound bus back, got,better. And then that's when I flew to England. I
went to Apple in 1968. I was 17.
We're gonna get to Apple in a bit, but I just wantto cover some of the earlier stuff still, you

(07:45):
have, over time, been inspired by one thing oranother to get you to write a song. What were the
first things early on in your life that wereinspiring you to write?
Political things always inspired me. Vietnamplayed a big part in my early songs. True love,
love of, between family, love between romance. thesame things that I enjoyed reading about, like

(08:10):
home. Just truthful things and honesty. And NewYorker's Close Knight was about pollution. And
that's the kind of thing that I wrote about. Iwrote about things that other people didn't really
visit. I was never interested in writing Save theLast Dance for Me or, Silhouettes on the Shade. I

(08:32):
never wanted to write those kind of songs. Iwanted to Write songs that made people think, and
that's never changed. To this very day. I've beenwriting a song the last two days called I'm Going
to Nashville. And it's about my 2008, 2009 trip toNashville. So it deals with seeing lots of
American flags, and it deals with the plantationthat I visited. So I try to talk about things that

(08:55):
nobody else talks about in songs.
Well, one of the things that I note in yoursongwriting, as well as your, singing and playing,
is that it's full of passion. Your own personalpassion, Hope. So how important is passion in
songwriting and playing? How important is it toyou?
100%. It's important in life. It's important. I'm74 years old. I've been passionate about

(09:21):
everything since the day I was born. I'm just. I.
I just think about things. And to me, songwritingis like expression of inner thoughts. I don't
really want to entertain. I want to make peoplethink. So, subject matter such as, walls and

(09:42):
restrictions and things that people don't visit insongs like I don't want to do dance tracks or
anything that isn't meat, ah, and potato.
You're more of a songwriter in the tradition oftroubadours and minstrels that, ah, went around
the countryside and told stories.
Of the day and, like, you know, what were theycalled? Not the jokers, the guys back in the 15,

(10:08):
1600s, the jesters. They were not funny people.
They were satirists.

S (10:14):
And truth. And truth tellers.
And truth. Yeah. And when Bob Dylan wrote songslike Masses of War and Gates, of Eden, I mean, I
don't compare myself to Dylan. Let's get that onthe table here. But I do want to walk on the same
road. You know, like, I watched the Charlemagnefilm, if that's the guy's name, Tim, whatever his

(10:37):
name is. And I didn't like it. I thought it wasn'tpassionate enough. I thought it was sort of
fluffy.

Stev (10:43):
You mean Timothy Chalamet?
Thank you so much. The one about Like a RollingStone, it just wasn't deep enough. And, yeah, I'm
not interested in shallow. I'm not interested inpuddles. I'm interested in oceans.
So I think, and you will agree or disagree withme, that I think a lot of today's audience is not

(11:04):
into deep. And so they made a movie for thataudience, not for the deeper thinker. and I think
that. That it's more fluffy in terms of. It'sabout his life, not so much about the Depth of his
songwriting. And that's what I think what you'retalking about.
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's been films madethat I can't give you the titles of, but that more
into this, the thinking of Dylan. But you'reright, it doesn't fill the seats.

(11:31):
That's the problem is it doesn't fill the seats.
And they're expensive propositions to make a movieof any kind, even a documentary, which that is
not. But, they're expensive. And so people want totry and figure out how to make their money back.
So that means appealing to the widest audiencethat they think they can. Let's talk about your
book, My Journey to Blue Sky. I think, the book isoutstanding and very interesting and compelling

(11:53):
all the way through. Tell the listeners a littlebit more about why you wrote My Journey to Blue
sky and what it's all about.
Well, we needed the introduction to me ten minutesago.
You said, RCA released Blue Sky. RCA did notrelease Blue Sky. They never released Blue Sky. I

(12:14):
had the number one record in Canada. New York isclosed tonight. It was the top song in Canada in
1972. The most played song in Canada in 1972, andthe longest song at number one in Canada. And that
was due to. I had a very heavy manager and hisname was Fred Allet Jr. A h l e r t Jr. And Fred

(12:38):
Allet Jr. Was living in New York and his mainsongwriters were Bacharach and David. Okay, Bo
Diddley, Trust me on this. Bo Diddley heard NewYork's Clothes Tonight. My bass player played it
for him. Bo Diddley took the song, the cassettetook Fred. And for six months, Fred phoned me

(12:59):
every six weeks or so from New York and said, thisis number one record. you're gifted. Ah, you're
the best lyricist I've come across since HalDavid. And I want you to work with me. And I said,
well, I don't want to go in the music business.
I'm not interested. And he said, da da da da da.
And then one day he phoned me up and he said, willyou meet me in San Francisco tomorrow? And I was a

(13:22):
student and I said, I don't have any money. And hesaid, well, just go to the airport. In those days
you could leave a ticket at the Air Canticle. So Igo to Los Angeles and I sign, a contract with Fred
Allet and us close. Knight comes out in Canada,does extremely well because it did so well. He
went to RCA and RCA Flew me down. And I wasinterviewed. I interviewed three producers and the

(13:50):
guy that I picked was the least famous of the lot,David Kirschenbaum. And Kirschman went on to
produce to win 73 major awards, Grammys, Oscars.
But his first record was Blue Sky. So Blue sky wasfinished. We had, what was called double scale. So
we had Larry Carlton, Jim Gordon, Joe Osborne, thebest players in the world. And boy, is that record

(14:14):
ever good.

Steve Cuden (14:15):
It is. It's great.
It's just never lost a step. So they released thefirst single, Sweet America. Sweet America, Ah.
Entered the billboard charts at 54 with a bullet.
And I'm flown down to RCA and they have a map upin a map on the wall that the staff had drawn of

(14:36):
America with pins in it. And the pins are wherethe song has been added. Chicago, Detroit,
probably Pittsburgh. I don't know if that's true,but certainly 30, 40 major markets. The second
week, the song is zooming up the charts. JohnMcCain and 132, I believe the number is from the

(14:57):
Hanoi Hilton. Come back to America. America pulledthe plug on Sweet America because it was anti
Vietnam. So RCA flew me down to Los Angelesovernight, put me on the phone, and for two days
I, was speaking to program directors. 30 a day. Iremember as clear as I'm talking to you, Steve.

(15:19):
And they said, barry, it's a fantastic song. It'sprobably a top 10 record. But we're not playing
it. We're not playing anything of that ilk. JohnMcCain's just come back. This is a great time.
We're not playing your song, which is critical ofthe Vietnam War. And, Fred Allot, who, if I said
what I really thought, my G's died 15 years ago.
But if I say what I really thought, he went to RCAand demanded more from them. And Kirschenbaum

(15:45):
phoned me up at home and said, we're not workingwith Fred Allard. We want you to separate from
Fred Adler. Ah. And we'll do Blue sky and we'll doanother album. And we believe in you, Barry. And,
I didn't want to be a rock star. Never wanted tobe, but I wanted to be a songwriter. And Fred
Ellet was Burt Bacharach and Hal David. And thatreally talked to me in spades. So I said no to

(16:10):
Kirschenbaum. Roll the clock ahead 50 years,turning 24. And it's now the 20th, 50th
anniversary of Blue Sky. And record collector do athree page spread saying it's a Barry Greenfield's
the best unknown, best songwriter you've neverheard of in the planet. the Canadian hall of Fame
inducts the record into the Canadian hall of Fameand says, one of the most outstanding Canadian

(16:34):
records ever produced. And I get phone calls andinterviews and stuff, and I'm thinking, well, this
is weird. After 50 years, I've got no hair. And, Iplay to crowds of 120, 80. You know, I don't play
to 5,000, 50,000. And there's something specialabout this record. And the reason there's

(16:54):
something special about this record for you andyour listeners, Steve, is the players are
phenomenal. They're in their peak. They're theguys from Steely Dan, they're the guys from Simon
and Garfunkel. They're the guys from FrankSinatra, they're the guys from Bread. And they
loved me and they loved these 12 songs. And so Iwent in the studio and I spent a lot of money and
I remastered the record and put it out, and it'sselling steadily, you know, And I just, you know,

(17:22):
thought, well, I'll tell all these stories in abook. And I had four people I've never met, and I
kept sending them these chapters, and they think,oh, this is really different. You're a really good
writer, and this is really positive and pleasant.
And a friend of mine gave me the title, a guy I'venever met, one of my readers. I had four readers,
as I said. And I just started writing it. Andbecause I'm a songwriter, it's kind of easy to

(17:46):
write a chapter. A chapter is like a song. Youhave the beginning and middle and end, and then
you edit it. So that's what the book is. The bookis the story of, 1963 to 1975, the blue sky years.
That includes working with 10cc in England andworking with John Lennon in Apple.
So one of the things that, makes a great writergreat is that they are able to use their voice to.

(18:11):
To express what's going on in their thinking. Andthat's who you are. So taking it from a song into
prose is a, natural for you.
It's like breakfast and dinner. They're the samething.
It is the same thing at a different time of theday. and that's what it is. And so your ability to

(18:32):
write is your ability to write. And the differenceis you just didn't set the book to music.
yeah, but I. I have been doing concerts since thelate 90s for a year. I don't do anymore. And, I
started early on telling the stories of Blue skybeing kissed by Cher on the cheek, working with

(18:55):
Supertramp. I mean, these are really, if youbelieve the stories, because obviously, when
someone writes a memoir, they can make up stufffrom anywhere. So if you trust Barry Greenfield,
and I swear on my daughter's health that everyword in this book is real, that my daughter is
pretty important to me, they're kind of, like,unbelievable that I go to Mike Nesmith's house for

(19:17):
dinner and I remember it all, and I remember thestory, and I wrote it in the chapter. And they're
all talking to John Lennon on the phone when he'sin the Montreal, bed in with Yoko, and he gives me
a little lecture about, what I can do to changethe world. I mean, these are like, you know, my
wife is very spiritual and very gifted and verytalented, and she's taught me a lot in the last

(19:41):
10, 12 years about believing in angels andbelieving things happen for a reason. And I
believe this book is helpful to people in, intheir journey. Because whenever you watch a really
good, speech at the Grammys or the Oscars, andit's a good one because not very many of them,
they always say the same thing. I didn't think I'dever be here. I didn't think this was going to

(20:02):
happen. But I stood, I worked hard, and I arrivedon time, and I wasn't drunk, and I showed up, and
I learned my lines, and I. And I didn't yell, atpeople. I was kind to the person that was bringing
me my coffee. And that's all that it's about. It'sabout, in the end, the love you take is equal to
the love you make.

(20:23):
So we've heard that, haven't we?
Yeah, that's my mantra. And I think it's true.
Well, I think that it is true. I think that, JohnLennon hit that nail on the head when he wrote
that. I'm just curious. The Beatles, obviously,were your principal and first inspiration. You saw
them. You write in the book that you saw them onthe Tonight Show. Was it the Tonight show where

(20:45):
you saw them, or was it the Ed Sullivan Show?
I didn't see that Sullivan show because I wasn'tliving in North America then. I was living in
Africa. But I heard about it. That was 1964,February 9th. I saw them in 1968. May 14th. Could
be wrong. It was a Friday night. And they flew.
John and Paul flew to New York to do this tonight.
Show to pitch apple. So I knew about it all day.

(21:09):
There's a whole chapter in the book about it,watching that show. And, they walked out through
the curtain and it wasn't Johnny Carson, it wasJoe Garrigiola of Old People Baseball Catcher. And
the interview is really, really poorly done. Johnsaid it was one of the worst experiences of his
career being interviewed. And it was really bad.
But they said, hey man, we're opening up, ah, arecord label for people who want to bring their

(21:33):
music and not meet people, in suits and not have aproblem and come to London. Bring your songs,
bring your poems, bring your screenplays, Come toLondon and, you know, if we feel it's a fit, we'll
help you. So I had $800 in the bank and it was formy first year tuition at university. And I was 17

(21:55):
years old and I got on a plane and I flew toLondon and went to Apple. And I walked up the
stairs and I walked in and the Magritte picture ofthe Apple cut in half was still on the floor. And
I walked to the desk, which is all told in thebook. And I said, john Lennon and Paul McCartney
invited us to come from all over the world to,bring our music while I'm here. And she had no

(22:18):
idea what I was talking about, the receptionist.
And you said, how old were you again?

Barry Greenfield (22:21):
17.
17. And you were 17. At 17. I would have never ina million years thought of getting on a plane and
going to England to go find the Beatles. When whatpossessed you to do that? Were you just absolutely
that focused?
You know what he said? And it was John that didmost of the talking that night. It was 22 minutes

(22:43):
long, two 11 minute segments. And I taped on acassette. So I played it over and over again for
days, like 10 times a day. Crazy as it sounds. AndI'm really not a crazy person. I'm about as normal
and as ordinary as they come. I'm not special oranything. I just thought it made perfect sense.
You know, I had the experience with Fred Allitt.

(23:05):
actually I hadn't had the experience of Fred outyet, but I had experience with local and he's the
top of the pile. And I always believe that if youwork with the best, the Larry Carlton's, the Creme
de la Creme, you will rise or you will make it.
And I don't know, Steve, granted. M. My secondbook is called all youl Need Is Courage. And

(23:27):
really, courage is all you need. I mean, if yousee a person, you Want to date, you have to have
the courage to ask them out. This was nodifferent.
Well, so we know that today was different backthen, obviously. But today, someone doing
something like that might be thought of as alittle too much or a stalker or whatever they
might think of you because you've approached themin such. Well, you were able to walk in the door

(23:51):
at Apple at that point. Right. It wasn't a lot ofsecurity. It was a simpler time for many reasons.
and. But today, if somebody were to just try toget in to see Paul McCartney at his home or his
business, wherever it would be, they would be,escorted back off the property without any
question.

Barry Gree (24:10):
And for good reason.
No matter how talented they were. And for goodreason, of course. so what was it like when you
met John Lennon? How you met him? Didn't you?
Yeah, of course. I am, I guess I should. I mean,I'll tell. I got. Everybody should just tell the
story for it to make sense. So the woman behindthe desk, who I named Jillian in my second book, I
tell this story in the second book as well, said,do you have an appointment? And I said, no. I

(24:35):
said, he was on TV a few days ago, and he said tocome. And she didn't know what to do, so she said,
well, have a seat. So there was two church pews inthe lobby. There was no chairs, church pews that
the Apple people had gotten from a church. So I'msitting there, and I've got my plastic bag and my
guitar next to me, and lo and behold, who comes upthe stairs? John Lennon and Yoko Ono. So I turn to

(24:58):
John and I say, good morning, Mr. Lennon, which iswhat that horrible Mark David Chapman said to him.
And John said, hello, and then smiled at Yoko,said, hello. She didn't respond to me. And they
went into a room with the guy who was smoking apipe and. Which I, later worked out probably out
of client. After about 10 minutes, 15 minutes, aguy comes out. And this guy's name was Derek

(25:20):
Taylor, and Derek Taylor was the Beatlespublicist. And he worked with them in 1963 until
he was fired by Epstein. And he came back in 68when Epstein died, to help run Apple. So he comes
out, this guy with a mustache, 27 years old, goesdown on his knees, to get to my eye level, bends
over, and he says, so, you've flown from Canada tomeet John? Yeah. Well, why? And I said, because

(25:47):
the Tonight show. He says, well, okay. Well,John's really busy. He's got Appointments all day.
Do you have a cassette you could leave for him?
And I said, no, I never made a cassette. Well, howare you going to show John your songs? And I said,
oh, well, I bought my guitar. So I had like a $25guitar in a plastic case. And he said, well, can

(26:08):
you play them for me now? So happens one of myfriends from writing this book, you might know. Do
you know Tim Quinn?
I know Tim Quinn. He's been on this show twice.
Tim Quinn was Derek Taylor's very, very bestfriend back in the day. So me and him have talked
about Derek and he says, you're quite right. Hewas the kindest man on the planet. Died some years
ago. So Derek said, will you play them for me? AndI said, yeah. I didn't have any lyric sheets at

(26:34):
all from memory. So we walk through Apple and it'sa big building and every single office is empty.
There is nothing. There's no tables, there's nochairs, there's just empty rooms. And you go right
to the back and we sit in this empty room on thisabsolutely filthy, dirty shag carpet. The only
part of the story I can't remember is what colorit was, but I know it was shag. And I play him 10

(26:56):
songs. That's what, 40 minutes? And he said, theseare phenomenal. You're so different. These are
really great. Let me talk to John and come backtomorrow at 10 o'. Clock. So I go downstairs and I
remember sending you a picture yesterday of mepointing to my Union Jack badge. Well, I went

(27:17):
outside, took my picture and I phoned my mom,because you could phone, collect my payphone back
in those days. And I said, I'm meeting John Lennontomorrow. I went back tomorrow at 10 o'. Clock.
And John said, derek really loves your songs. he'spicked two. Love is for the Young and Old and with
this new girl. And we're going to put demos ofthem and if we like them, you're going to be on

(27:37):
Apple Records. And if the single does well, you'regoing to do an album. And I said, oh. And I said,
I just sort of wanted someone else to sing thesongs. He said, well, Derek thinks you've got a
great voice. And so it's kind of hard to arguewith John Lennon. I mean, he was so nice and it
lasted a long time. It wasn't like it was 30seconds. And he went on, how the hell I had the

(28:00):
ability and the foresight and the gumption tocome. Nobody else came, apparently, like, they
signed James Taylor and they signed Bad Thing, ifnot through someone coming in the door from that
Tonight show. No one came. So he was really.
John's always been impressed with Courage. It's a,we go to the top of most, the popper, most boys,
you know. He wasn't frightened of no one. When heheard the demos, which were very much like the

(28:25):
record, he just loved them. And I said no, I, Idon't want to do this. I just want to write songs,
I don't want to sing. I'm too scared. I, I'venever, I can't even chew my guitar yet. John, I'm
not ready. I'm 17. And they were gobsmacked and Icame home, went to university and then us closed

(28:45):
night happened and then 10cc and then Fred Allenbackpack. No one's ever said no except for that
first adjourn to la.
Well, you turned down Apple Records, you know,which is most people would think is not
foresightful. But you didn't feel like you wereready.
No, not only didn't feel like I was, I wasn'tready. It's a very, very big yoke to put on your

(29:12):
shoulders to sing in front of people. I've neversung in front of anyone but my sister and my
mother and my father and my father. Hardly ever.
Do you think that young people who might have yoursituation today where they don't feel ready but
somebody thinks that they have talent and wants tohelp them, would you advise them to do the same or

(29:32):
would you advise them to maybe let somebody elseguide you along the way? How would you advise
them?
Two steps back, one step left, one step right.
Wait. Because the music business will eat you up.

Steve Cuden (29:46):
Oh definitely.
It's full of people that are there for money andnot art. And unfortunately there's a lot of people
in this world that don't really like to work. Theyjust want to be ah, slave owners. And I think it
was a very, very wise move. 17 year old kid. Imean there's some that can handle it. I mean did
Michael Jackson handle it? Well, I don't think so.

(30:08):
Did Miley Cyrus handle it? Well, I don't think so.
It's very, very hard, you know, but someone thatdoes it gradually, like you too, you know. The
first album wasn't really that big and then thesecond album was a bit bigger. They had time to
live supposedly when they wrote Follow, me Followyou, whatever that first single was, they only
knew two chords, G and F Edge, only new twochords. So it's better when you get in the car and

(30:34):
you drive in 30k until you get to a bigger road,then you go 50k. Then you can go on the freeway.
But don't take your driving lessons on thefreeway. Take your driving lessons in a parking
lot. I wish I could give you an example of someonethat I think it worked out for.
But, you know, I'll give you. I'll give you oneoff the top of my head. Taylor Swift.

(30:55):
That the name was in my mouth. But I went toNashville to sell my songs in 2008, 2007, and one
of the names in everybody's tongues in music rowwas Taylor Swift. How mature she was. She was 12
or 13. I met Taylor Swift, and Taylor Swift'smother was never more than a yard and a half from
her. Taylor Smith's mother never said a word. Butshe never ever left Taylor's side. Maybe there is

(31:23):
the secret. I have no idea.
She was being guided by, her parents.

Barry Greenfield (31:28):
With love.
With love. You write in the book, and I'm quotingquote, my life is marked by noticing an
opportunity and acting upon it. Close quote. Thatseems to me to be one of the best rules for
success ever. That's a great rule, to notice anopportunity and act on it. How did you figure that
out at that age?

(31:49):
Well, if I asked my wife Laurie, she would say,well, Barry's an old soul. Barry's been around
this place a long time, a lot more than 74 years.
And I don't know how to answer that except for,like, I really believe that humbleness is far more
attractive than arrogance. So I just understood itfrom the word go. And like, when I met Lennon and

(32:14):
when I met Carlton and when I met, others. And thelist is a long list. Share, and even today, Randy
Batman. I've written with Graham Gudens, very goodfriend of mine. they don't want, or they want you
to be okay and normal and, you know, would youlike some milk in your coffee? Not. Oh, I really,

(32:35):
really like your. This or. You know, I never didany of that with John. I never ever told John
that, please please me story. Never.
Well, because you treat them like they're.
Just people because they are just like you.
Right, Exactly. But that's hard for a lot ofpeople to, get. When I was a kid, just as an
example, the other way. When I was a kid, I was aboob tube kid. All I did was watch tv, watch tv,

(32:59):
go to movies, watch tv. That was my thing. Andwhen I finally moved to Hollywood. As a young
person in my early 20s, I was so starstruck, Ididn't know what to say to people because I only
knew them from being on a screen. And I think thathappens to many, many people. They get starstruck
and it's very difficult to overcome that unlessyou're around celebrities, famous people,

(33:21):
successful people for a long time. For mostpeople, I think, as you.
Read in Blue sky, the book Journey to Blue Sky, Iwould visit people. So for instance, I spent four
hours with Kenny Rogers.
Tell that story. That's a great story.
I am, was a busboy at a supper club called theCave in Vancouver, which was kind of like a Las
Vegas room, right? Maybe 300 seats, maybe less.

(33:45):
And they had really good acts, the Supremes, KennyRogers, Mitzi Gaynor, lots of acts of high end
acts, I don't know why, but on the circuit, Iguess. And I used to go to work at 7 at night and
finish at 3 in the morning. And there was some ofthe acts that didn't appeal to me at all, but some
of them did. Like, I met the fifth and fifthdimension through that place. I met Kenny Rogers.

(34:07):
I met Sonny and Cher and others. But Kenny Rogersis the most of everything that's ever happened in
my book or in my life. Kenny Rogers is at thevery, very top for the way he treated me and the
gifts he gave me and how he shared with me. So Igo there at one in the afternoon, because I can
get in, because I work there. And I walk up thespiral staircase to the dressing room, which is

(34:29):
just a small, little dumpy dressing room. And Iknock on the door and this Texas guy says, come
in. And this is 19. It was Kenny Rogers in thefirst edition, 1968, 1967. And he says, who are
you? And I said, my name is. I forgot, she's thesame. My name is Barry Greenfield and I'm a

(34:51):
songwriter and I'd like to discuss songwritingwith you. And he said, okay, what do you got? So
of course they listen to a song and I imagineafter 30 seconds or 50 seconds or a minute and a
half, if they're normal, they'll say, you know,sorry, I'm busy today. Good luck with your career.

(35:11):
You're nice. hair, good luck. Four hours, man. Hetaught me about, told me how much he loved
producing. He produced Don Henley's early demosfor Shiloh, before the Eagles. He told me about
working with, the guys. I can't remember thenames, but the early country guys. I remember back
in the day they're in the book. And he told meabout being truthful. And if you think about the

(35:34):
songs that Kenny Rogers recorded, like lady andthe gambler and, I believe in you and she believes
in me, I guess it was. They're all sort of likefrom his heart. And that's what he told me in four
hours. Don't, don't record covers. Keep to whatyou know and be honest. And I thought he was
absolutely, really helpful. And Sonny Buono toldme the same things. And people, there is only sort

(35:59):
of a common truth, which is be yourself, don't bearrogant. And if someone says no, accept it. Don't
irritate them. And, the people you meet on the wayup, the people you meet on the way down.
Well, you also write in the book, which isrelevant to what you're talking about. And I'm
quoting again, quote, whenever I am direct, use acalm voice, express myself clearly, I seem to

(36:21):
arrive at affirmative. So that's what happened foryou. You were direct with Kenny Rogers. You've
been direct with people. That's how you approachpeople. And you're not all full of fluff. You're
actually just going straight to the heart of thematter and they respond to it. Am I, am I reading
that correctly?
1,000% correct. And the other thing that'simportant in the story is that when you walk into

(36:43):
Kenny Rogers dressing room, you're meeting KennyRogers. Not the guy from the television series and
not the guy that's going to sing with DollyParton, because he hadn't yet. Right. So Kenny
Rogers and I told about this in the book, too, hasa great history of collaborating. He's had a lot
of hits with, Dottie west and with Lionel Richieand with Dolly Parton. I think Islands in the

(37:07):
Stream is one of the best duets ever. And he wasnot the world's greatest singer, really. He just
had a distinctive voice and was honest and. Andsmiled and arrived on time. I'm so sure. So, yeah,
be honest. I think the word courage has to be inthat thing as well. You have to have the courage
to knock on the door, and if he says, I'm busy,you don't open the door anyway and say, well, I

(37:29):
just need a minute, Mr. Rogers. You just go away.
How did you learn that? Where did that come from?
I think I had the worst year of my life. When Iwas 12, I was living in Rhodesia and I was beaten
by, teachers and I was beaten by students. And afew days after I turned 13, I went by myself and.

(37:52):
And I flew to England and lived with my aunt fortwo and a half years. That was 1963. I was just
turned 13 by a week. And I went to grammar schoolin England, which again, I talked myself into
getting accepted. It was supposedly impossible toget into grammar school without your A levels,
which I didn't even write. But I tore myself in bytalking to the headmaster. And I spent two and a

(38:13):
half years. And I think English grammar schooltaught me manners and told me decorum. And if you
watch a movie like, Marigold Hotel or DowntonAbbey Versus a Tom Cruise movie, there's a certain
way of the English actors are. That I think I amwhen I'm going, to Kenny Roger. I think Kenny

(38:37):
Roger has been approached by thousands. Maybe notat that point in his life, maybe it was hundreds
at that point. But they, they know, they can seeit so easily. If you're not really sincere, they
can tell just like you can. You've done so manyshows.
Ah, they can smell it in a second. it's pervasivearound someone that's not ready. Not sincere. They

(39:01):
can smell it. They can smell a snake oil salesmancoming down the road.
That's quite right. And music business is full ofsnake oil salesmen. Almost all snake oil salesmen.
Well, indeed. Talk to us for a moment, from thebook about you mentioned already in the show,
Graham Goldman, who I don't know that much about.
Tell us about him and how he impacted your lifeand career more than.

(39:25):
Anybody else, except for Kenny Rogers. GrahamGoldman, I met when I was 19. I came back from
Apple and I, went to university to become alawyer. And after a year and a half, I wanted to
know whether the Apple offer was real or just afluke. So I decided I wasn't going to go to

(39:49):
London. I was going to go to Manchester, where Iwas from, because Manchester had the Hollies,
eventually the Stone Roses. They've always had anoasis. They've always had a music scene. So I go
to Manchester and I stay at my aunt's, house, theone I lived with when I was 13. I'm now 18. And I
get in a bus and I'm sitting upstairs in the buswith my guitar. And there's only one other person

(40:12):
on the bus, a young girl my age. Her name isBernice Seeger. We're in communication now 60
years later through Facebook.

Steve Cuden (40:20):
Nice.
I go to this girl on the bus and I say, I'm fromCanada and I'm Here to sell my songs. Do you know
anybody that does music in this town? She says,oh, yeah. Well, my boyfriend is Lal Cream, and
he's in a band called Hot Legs. Now, Hot Legs hada song called Neanderthal Man. I don't know if you
know that or not. With the number two in theStates. Great, great song. And Neanderthal Man.

(40:42):
Hot Legs morphed into a band called 10cc. Now,10cc were like, so big in Europe and in England,
like, phenomenally big. But they never broke inthe States, apart from I'm Not In Love and
Dreadlock Holiday. And Graham was the bassist inthat band. And Graham wrote a lot of songs in the
1960s. He wrote bus Stop for the Hollies, no MillToday for Herman's Hermits, Foia Love for the

(41:06):
Yardbirds, Evil Hearted Soul for the Yardbirds. Hewas my icon. I learned all of his songs when I was
a kid. Graham Googleman. So I phoned Lal Cream,and Lal Cream was very bright, not nice to me at
all. He said, I don't do this. Phone my m.
Manager. Phone his manager. Go see his manager.
Walk over there 25 minutes. Magic does whateverybody else does. Oh, these songs are so
different. Phones. Graham Grooman, one of hisartists, Graham comes over, listen to songs. We're

(41:32):
gonna make a single. And that's when I wrote SweetAmerica. And the first time it was released before
America was in England. And it was the BBC Recordof the Week, my single. And the week before it was
Another day by Paul McCartney. The week after itwas the Carpenter's Close to you. So it was in
good company. And once again, they wanted me to goon and make an album and stuff. I said, no, no, I

(41:54):
just want to see if it worked. Not interested inbeing a rock star. Not interested in singing. Just
wanted to see if it worked and came home. Now,Graham and I have maintained a friendship for 60
years now. And, we've written songs together overthe years. We've had songs covered together. He is
the best songwriter I've ever worked with. I'mtalking about three figures, you know, 100 people

(42:15):
plus. And the guy that wrote Bus Stop, wrote agreat song. And I'm Not In Love. That's a very
special song.

Steve Cude (42:22):
That's a great song.
Absolutely. So that's how he came about. And he'shelped me and guided me and, you know, he's been
there for me. Not all the time, but most of thetime. Yeah.
So you're saying something. I think that's veryValuable for the listeners to pay attention to.
Sometimes in life, if you're lucky and there's alittle bit of luck involved, you meet someone or

(42:43):
someones who have a long term impact on your life.
Not just from the initial meeting, but all the waythrough your life. Here's a good example of it
with Graham Goldman and you, and that's somethingto pay attention to and to hang on to. I'm sure
you agree.
I do. And as there's only two types of things thatyou build walls or bridges. So if you build a

(43:07):
wall, the person can't get to you and you can'tget to them. you know, I don't need you anymore.
I'm on to better, better things now, you know,please use my phone number or I'll change it, you
know, or you build a bridge and you send thembirthday cards and you don't be phony. You, if
their mother dies, you pay attention to that. Youdo nice things.

(43:29):
You have built many bridges, that's the thing, butnothing but bridges. So I have to have you tell us
the story, which I found fascinating of what youlearned from John Lee Hooker, the great John Lee
Hooker.
A lot about playing live. Mostly, John was.
How long did you play with him? It's just, just alittle bit, right?

(43:51):
I played with him 13, dates. 18 days. I was withhim probably 14 hours a day for 18 days. I was his
sort of like guide, to the world. He didn'tfunction well. He had trouble with waitresses. He
had, he was.

(44:12):
What do you mean he had trouble? What does thatmean?
He just didn't like dealing with people. He foundearly on in the tour that I really wanted to be
with him because I thought he was fascinating. AndI helped him get through airports. I helped him
get. I helped, him. The best story, I think thebest story is he, he, like so many black artists

(44:32):
I've worked with, want to get paid in cash. Theydon't. They've been, especially that generation.
The point is, this is another example I workedwith. They don't take a check. They've been had
too many checks go boing, boing, boing. So Johnlee got paid $1,000 a night from the gate. So he
got paid mostly in dollar bills. So me and Johnwould go to John's room and we both sit in the

(44:53):
same bed and it's true story, which is I guess,and he'd take out the money that was given. And I
guess he. I've never known whether he could reador write, I don't know. But I don't think he could
count. So I'd go, 1, 2, 3, 4, 10. 1, 2, 3, 20.
Then I'd get to 100 and I put it on the side. Andhe never got stiff. There was always a thousand
dollars every time. But I had to count it. Andthat sums our relationship up. He was so

(45:21):
charismatic when he walked out on that stage. Hehad this very average band that would play 20
minutes off, 12 Bar Blues led by his son. And thenhe'd walk out and do maybe 20, 25 minutes of one
chord and growl in the microphone. It was just sopowerfully great. Never missed a second of it. And
then he'd have to wait till the next night. And hehad trouble maneuvering, finding the car or

(45:48):
finding it had to be. I ordered for him. Hewouldn't eat anything but, like, hamburgers. He
wouldn't, like, go to Japanese restaurant,Chinese. That's not possible. He was a very. I
liked him a lot.

St (46:01):
He was a singular character.

Barry G (46:03):
He was John Lee Hooker.

Steve C (46:04):
He was John Lee Hooker.
Yeah. And we're sitting on a plane, me and him, ona Cessna. We're flying from Saskatoon to Thunder
Bay. And the guy in the Cessna, there's only threeof us, is smoking potential. And I'm shitting
myself because I'm thinking, this guy's stoneflying assessment. And, you know, I've only been
in a Cessna a couple times. And they do bounce.
They're not like a 747. They actually go with thewind, especially when you land it. And John says

(46:29):
to me, I hope I'm doing this right, you know,Barry. What's that, John? I invented the word
boogie. You invented the word boogie? Yeah, yeah.
9, 49, 48. My first single was Boogie. Chilling. Iinvented the word boogie. And it's true. And he
told me that.

(46:50):
That's amaz. That's amazing. That's truly amazing.
And what. What did he teach you about if youmessed up a song?

Barry Greenfield (46:56):
No one knows.
No one knows. Just keep going.
Just, no, do it all the time. No one knows. Butthey do know if you're out of tune. But they don't
know that you're out of tune. They just know thatit don't feel right. So you've got to be in tune.

(47:17):
And m. You got to sing in tune. Unless you're asinger like me or Leonard Cohen or Neil Young. And
then it's sort of fashionable to be, okay, alittle bit over and above. But kids today, I mean,
they're so actually auto tuned to death that it'sscary. I mean, everything is pitch perfect. And
that's not how the human voice works.

(47:37):
He also. I'm going from your book, of course, buthe taught you to smile and not rush.
Yeah, Two very important things. I do that a lot.
I sit down and I smile. And before I play a song,I always talk, sometimes five minutes, sometimes
one minute, but I always talk. And a lot of myattendees are, the same people, so it doesn't

(48:02):
surprise them. But when people come to a show,normally, you know, the band, they clap and they
walk out and then they sit down and they ding,ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Chin up a bit. And
then they go on for 15 minutes. Then they say,thanks for coming and look at the hand and they
read the name of the town. We love you, Buffalo,but I don't do that. I never know what I'm gonna

(48:22):
say. And I. It's like one on one. It's liketelling the truth to a person on the plane. You
know, we talked about earlier about be honest anddon't rush.
We're, heading toward the end of the show, but Ihave to ask you to tell the story about the Mike
Nesmith Thanksgiving dinner. That's just a greatstory.

(48:43):
Okay. I don't know if I can do the long, shortversion, but I'll do my best. I'm in the studio at
RCA recording the Blue sky album with all theseheavyweights, and I get a phone call from a friend
of mine. He says, ah, I've been invited to MikeNesmith's house for dinner.
So. So, by the way, stop for a moment and tell theaudience who doesn't know who Mike Nesmith is, who
Mike Nesmith was.

(49:03):
Mike Nesmith was the interesting guy in theMonkeys. He was the tallest monkey and had the
green, toucan. And he went on to make a hugeamount of money because his mother invented
whiteout. But he was the interesting one in theMonkeys. He was the one that believed that they

(49:24):
should make music. And he's knocking his headagainst the wall for decades and, I think a pretty
unhappy guy because of the Monkees. But he was inthe Monkees who auditioned for the show. And he
was a comedian, but he was also a songwriter and aguitar player and a very good one, a, poet. So the
phone rings and would you like to go? My nextannouncement. Dinner. and it's Thanksgiving, and I
had to. That meant leaving the studio at 4 o'clock to be. No leaving the studio at 3 o' clock

(49:47):
to be there at 4 o'. Clock. And so I went toKirschenbaum and I said, listen, I've been offered
a chance to go to a monkey's house for dinner.
Would that, be okay if I leave at 3? And maybe youcan do some overdubs or, you know, do stuff that
doesn't. Oh, absolutely, Barry. We went earlyanyway, because Thanksgiving, these guys want to
go home for their families. So we're probablygoing to end then anyway, so let's just call it a

(50:09):
day. At three. So we drive over the Beverly Hillsand we get into this gate that's like 12ft high,
20ft wide, and there's a buzzer, and it says, pushthe buzzer. Do not leave car unattended. So push.
My. My driver Peter pushes the buzzer. We drivethis long, unwinding road to the top of the house,
and there's a big four car garage. There's a bigsign just at the one at the front. Do not leave

(50:33):
car unattended. And the reason the sign is thereis because there's this German shepherd the size
of a house running around the car, like, literallyrunning around the car, barking. And he didn't
need a sign to know not to get out of the car. Soout from the house down by the garage comes

(50:53):
Nesmith. It looks like Mike Nas even had his greenton, which is unbelievable. And he speaks to the
dog, and the dog only speaks German because thedog is raised and trained in German, he says, and
the dog stops barking. But I was there from, 4 in

the afte (51:10):
32 in the morning. And the dog was in the room the whole time. Never
bothered me. But I used to own a German ship, butthey work. He was working. If I would have lunged
at Mike, he would have tore me up. So we go, wehave dinner with him and Joanne. He wrote a great
song called Joanne, about his girlfriend. Her namewas Joanne. And we have this dinner, turkey, and

(51:31):
it's all American, and they've got flags for saltand pepper shakers and talking about 1960s music,
because that's all we know. And he loves that. Heloves the Beatles and he loves the Foremost, and
he loves the Kinks, and I know a lot about thatstuff. So he really likes talking to me about it.
And then we finish our meal and we go and sit downin the living room, and Joanne leaves. And Joanne

(51:52):
comes back in with an English tea tray. But on theEnglish tea tray, there was no cups, no sources,
no teapot. It was just like six or eight rows ofpills. And on, the end of the tea tray was a hash
pipe and a huge pile of hash. And he said, jeremy,are you ready for dessert? And so I don't really

(52:17):
drink alcohol. I said, I'll have another cup ofcoffee, please. And Joanne, kindly enough, got me
a cup of coffee. And him and Joanne. Because Petedidn't do any either, him and Joanne started
mixing pills. And the funny part of the story isthey knew a lot. So they would say they were like
chefs. And he did most of the talking. He wouldsay, well, if we do some finagogo with some,

(52:41):
Mountain dew, then wait 10 minutes and have a blueguy, it'll be really great. So they both take a
finagogo spin. And I'm watching this. I'm in thisbin around a pill, and they take a second one and
then switch. So this goes on for, like, two,three, or four hours. And they don't even really
go nuts. They just. I guess that's normal. Theywere, like, high, and I. And they smoked a ton of

(53:06):
hash. And I didn't know that then, but I know itnow is as a contact high. So I'm really high,
probably without really. And I'm having atremendous time. I'm just loving every second of
it. And their highest kites. And then shedisappears, goes off, and Pete passes out on the
couch, drinking too much alcohol. And Mike says,you want to play some music? And he hands me a

(53:29):
guitar, and he has a guitar. And for the next hourand a half, we go one song each, One song each.
And the first song I played was New York's CloseTonight. And the first song he played was
Different Drum because I requested it because hewrote Different Drum, Linda Ronstadt and the Stone
Ponies. And it was the most delightful night. Andafter that, after he played me some monkey songs,

(53:50):
he played me Daydream Believer. I taught him howto play Play With Fire from the Rolling Stones
catalog. It was just the two normal guys. And onceagain, normal. I never asked him any monkey
stories. I never said, how is Davey? Is he reallythat short? Nothing like that. Just two guys. I
guess he was older than me. And then he said,let's go sit by the pool. So we go outside, and he

(54:13):
has these pool chairs that are exactly the same,if I'm correct, as the ones they used in Love and
in Las Vegas for the Beatles Love Show. And thechair is like, a roundish chair with a left
speaker and a right speaker. He says, sittingthere. And for the next I know, 45 minutes, hour,
he plays Paperback Writer over and over and overagain. And he's raving about how great the Beatles

(54:35):
is. And he's telling me how much he hates theMonkeys and how it's, complete crap and how, he's
contractually, you know, has to do this. He'sgoing to San Francisco tomorrow to do a concert
and he gets paid ten grand for just doing nothing.
And he says it's so hard, because there's just nogrowth and it's so restrictive. And I felt kind of

(54:56):
sad because here was a guy living in GlenCampbell's house. He bought the house from Glen
Campbell. There was a beautiful grand piano in thefoyer. When you walked in, I thought, I wonder if
Jimmy Webb ever played Wichita Lyman on thatpiano. And he is taking maybe 12, 15 pills,
smoking ton of hash, drinking a lot of wine,raving about a, bass part Paul McCartney is

(55:17):
playing. And he did go on to make lots of albumsthat he was proud of. But it was once again like
Kenny Rogers and John Lennon. So nice, Steve. Sokind, so un. Arrogant. So he was, as you know, I
say he's about equal to me as a songwriter. Hewasn't like. Like, if you're working with Jimmy

(55:39):
Webb, how can you even compare the two? Or someonelike, John Denver. I mean, he's. John Denver wrote
Leaving on a Jet Plane. It's a masterpiece. Youknow, Mike was just a regular guy who wrote really
good songs and he had a beautiful voice and heplayed his guitar really well. And I was pretty
adequate by that point in my career. And I knewhow to play my songs especially. And, it was
another lesson learned. Because the lesson learnedwas, he really wasn't happy with the dishonesty of

(56:05):
the monkeys. And I, was really sad to hear that,Steve, because he was so happy until then.
It's very interesting because when you're. Well,you probably know this as well as anyone, that
when you're the artist, you know where all theproblems are in the work that you've worked on.

(56:25):
You know, when something didn't work, take it outand rearrange it and try it differently. Or you
scrap the whole thing because you just can't getit. Whatever it is, you know where the problems
are. But the public, what they hear at the end ofthe day is something that they fall in love with.
But the artist is always. Not always, but most ofthe time the artist is hard on him or herself
because they. They see where all the seams are,they know it can fall apart at any point. And he

(56:51):
just sounds like he was so dissatisfied with hissuccess that he was trying to almost maybe try to
destroy it in some way.
Well, the Monkeys have a storied history. I mean,where they'd go and tour, the three of them. He
wouldn't be there, and then I guess he neededmoney or something that the Monkeys gave him. the
Monkeys are a really weird thing because theMonkeys are really plastic. I mean, they had great

(57:15):
songs written by other people.

Steve Cuden (57:18):
Well, that's it.

Barry Greenf (57:19):
By Boys and Heart.
They're an absolutely spectacular act. But it wascanned. It was made for them.

Barry Greenfield (57:27):
Yeah.
They didn't create it themselves.
I saw Boys to Men a few years ago, maybe six oreight years ago, and they weren't at the peak
anymore. So they were doing their beautifulharmonies and their beautiful dance moves and
sings. Only three of them left up in the four, butthey were doing it to tape of, background music.
And I think you should quit before you go to thatlevel. You shouldn't drop your standards. You

(57:51):
should quit. You should walk. I have a deal withmy daughter, and my deal is, sweetheart, when my
voice is not, I even do say, getting better,because I am getting better. I'm a better singer
now than I was three years ago. tell me and I'llstop, because I don't think it's fair. I have. You
know. Again, you don't want to compare anybody toPaul McCartney. But there is a question. When you

(58:14):
watch the who, Roger Daltrey and Pete Townsend ontour this year, it's pathetic, them playing
Substitute In My Generation at half tempo withoutKeith Moon or John Anwassel. It's not the who.
It's Pete Townsend and John and Roger Daltrey.
It's not the who.
They. They're. They're looking for money most ofthe time.

(58:34):
Well, yeah, because Roger didn't write any of thesongs. And Pete's got more money than brains, but
he does it to help Roger out. And it's just notfair to pretend it's the who. And, you know, when
John died in 1980, it put the end to all Beatlereunions. You know, some people suggested Sean
Lennon or something. What a silly idea that was,you know, And I love Jimmy, Robert Plant, when he

(58:55):
said, when John Barnum died, you can't do LedZeppelin. And there's, you know, you can't do the
Monkeys with three of them. You can't do SimonGarfunkel without Garfunkel. No matter how much
you pretend I wrote the song, you know.
Well, but the beauty part about Simon andGarfunkel is all the songs were written by Simon,

(59:15):
so he can go off and sing them, and he does.
And I've seen them, and they're great. But SimonGarfunkel are the real deal. When Garfunkel sings
bridge over 12 waters, and Garfunkel sings theharmony on, Emily, or, Rosemary, Parsley and
Thyme, whatever the song is called, like, he's.
It's this, it is that, it's that, it's thatperfect. he's a big part of Simon Garfunkel. He's

(59:38):
half of it. And, you can't. When the Jenga thingfalls down, it falls down. You take the piece out.
The Jenga thing falls down.
That is absolutely true. Well, I've been havingjust the most fun conversation for a little more
than an hour now with the great Barry Greenfield,and we're going to wind the show down just a
little bit. Now, you've just told us someincredible stories. Do you have one that's funny,

(01:00:01):
weird, quirky, offbeat, or strange that can topwhat you've just given us?
Well, the day I spent on Mars was veryinteresting. so I go to see Sonny and Cher, and
I'm in their hotel room, and Sonny says to me,well, no one has ever done this before. Like, in
those days, you could phone the hotel and say,sonny Bono. And they put you through the room. It

(01:00:21):
was room 809, the Georgia Hotel, which my wife andI go to. So I'm in Sonny and Share's room, and I
play them some songs, and he has a cassette, andhe tapes one of the songs. And then Cher, he
didn't say much during all the business part,which, like, 45 minutes, said, hey, Barry, why
don't you, show us your beautiful city? So we godownstairs, and for, the next maybe hour, hour and

(01:00:42):
a half, you know, hour and a half, we walk maybe30 minutes down Georgia street, walk into an art
gallery window shop, looking at shoes and stuff.
And the whole time in this hour and a half,there's me and Cher, and there's sunny, 10 steps
back. And Sunny is sort of like her dad. She's 23,22, something like that. He's probably in his

(01:01:04):
mid-30s, and I don't think they're getting along.
So I have this chair thing. And some people arejust much more beautiful in person than any
picture. And maybe Cher isn't that photogenic likesome people Are like, like maybe, The girl from
Notting Hill is Julia Roberts.

Steve Cuden (01:01:25):
Oh, yes, she is.
Okay, well, there you go. Never met her, but Cheris like, whoa, there's something. I mean, that's
what Sunny saw, I guess. So they can make moneywith this person. And so we have the most
wonderful time. And she, she asked me about myfamily and she told me about her sister and she
tells me about her mom and dad. She tells me abouthow she's not really sure about the business and
her singing is getting better, but she's still notterribly confident but, you know, it's getting

(01:01:48):
easier and stuff. This is before they hit thestrategy of what she is now, which is, ah, an
icon. And we get back to the hotel after an hourand a half and it's got a door you pull open. So I
go to the door and then, as I say, raised theEnglish grammar school. And I do, to this day,
open the car door for my wife. I open the door andshe kisses me on the cheek. And this chapter is

(01:02:13):
called the Day Cher Kiss Me on the Cheek and saysto Sonny, why can't you be more of a gentleman
like Barry? And I smiled. I had a huge crush and,didn't learn much about music, but I learned about
marriage, that it didn't feel right. And I thoughtit was weird that he, ah, was really good when he

(01:02:41):
came talking about business. Told me all about howhe met Phil Spector and how he worked with Phil
Spector and how he brought Sharon sing backgroundvocals on River Deep, Mountain High and stuff like
that, which I thought was super interesting. Butonce we stopped talking about music, he was sort
of at a loss and she was much more interested. Sothe way that this story ends in the book and the
way I'll end it with you is I didn't meet Cherthat day. I met Cherylin, Sarkassian, the real

(01:03:06):
person. And I know that if you had Cher on yourshow and you said you remember 1968 when you
walked in Vancouver with Barry Greenfield and youkissed on the cheek, she said no. And yet when she
has 3 million stories like that, and I have one,to me, it's a big moment and I'm proud to share
it. And, that's one of my favorite chaptersbecause she's still around. And her. Her memoir

(01:03:33):
came out November and February, two parts. I'm notgoing to read it, but it's. It was, it was. She
was just so like Kenny Rogers. The same thing.
Bobby Gentry, there's many of them.
Leaves a Big impression on you. But it's probablyone of many stories for her in which she had
encounters with people that was brief and awaythey went. And so that's why, for you, that stood

(01:03:57):
out. I can understand that. Definitely. Right. So,last question for you today, Barry. you've shared
with us a gigantic amount of wonderful advicethroughout the whole show, but do you have a
single piece of advice or tip that you like togive to those who are just starting out and they
say, well, what do I do? Or maybe they're in alittle bit trying to get to that next level.
Level? Well, a few things that come to mindwithout prepping. One is find people that you

(01:04:23):
think will tell you the truth, like your friends,your mother, your uncle, your partner. and then if
you find they're not telling the truth, they justtell you what you want to hear. Don't ask them
anymore because it's worthless. Secondly, arriveon time. Don't arrive five minutes early. And then

(01:04:43):
sit outside the door until the clock hits 8 o'clock, and then knock on the door at 8 o'. Clock.
Precise. Don't make promises you can't deliver.
And don't exaggerate. Don't say Cher kissed you onthe mouth and put her tongue down your throat when
she kissed you on the cheek, because the truthrings true and exaggeration rings false. And the

(01:05:05):
last thing I'll get to is the novel that I'mworking on is called all youl Need Is Courage,
based on all youl need is, love. And I think thatto be successful in anything, whether it's being
lore or architecture or driving a bus, havecourage to stick to your guns. And if you know
it's right, follow that route. And if you knowit's wrong, turn around and walk backwards.

(01:05:27):
Well, I think that that's just truly four greatpieces of advice. And I think that you've shared
so much wonderful your, Your thoughts, youradvice, and lots of great stories tonight. And I
can't thank you enough for your. Your time, yourenergy, and for your wisdom throughout this whole
show.
Well, well, well, I don't want to say except for Ireally always knew I was going to enjoy talking to

(01:05:49):
you. We planned this for many months, and as Isaid, I didn't really research who you were until
a few weeks ago. But every email that we shared,which I think is important, you've always been
kind, responsive and loving and real andrespectful and all that shit. And it's been a
true. Best podcast I've ever been on.
Oh, well, now I'm blushing. Thank you so much forthose kind words, Barry. Now, as promised, we have

(01:06:16):
a gift for all of you listeners. For yourlistening pleasure, Barry has generously lent us
his powerful hit song, New York is closed tonight.
So sit back and enjoy.
My eyes are hurting badly? I'm breathing throughmy nose? My white shirt is turning gray? I should

(01:06:46):
wear plastic clothes? It's getting dark so earlyLong before it's night and the neon freeway sign
said New York's closed? New York's closed tonight?

(01:07:16):
Reading's getting harder as I walk through thepark? The trees are brown and dingy and no one
walks the dog My dog died Thursday I couldn'tsleep all night? And the man on the radio said New

(01:07:43):
York's closed? New York's closed tonight? Callback your armies? The demonstration's true

(01:08:23):
Everything is lost? There's nothing we can do? Wetold you long ago your solution wasn't right.
Right. And today. The Pittsburgh Herald Red NewYork's closed? New York's closed tonight? Closed,

(01:08:50):
closed New York. Sam M.

(01:09:35):
And so we've come to the end of today's StoryBeat. If you like this episode, won't you please
take a moment to give us a comment, rating orreview on whatever app or platform you're
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(01:09:58):
Spotify, iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others.
Until next time, I'm Steve Cuden and may all yourstories be unforgettable.