Billy J. Kramer, Rock and Roll Legend-Episode #378

The rock and roll legend, Billy J. Kramer, grew up in Bootle, a Liverpool suburb.  Upon leaving school, he became a trainee engineer by day and aspiring singer by night, performing under the stage name Billy Kramer. Billy’s performances at local rock clubs around Liverpool soon brought him to the attention of the one and only John Lennon.  John urged Brian Epstein to sign Billy to an exclusive management contract.  Billy jumped at the opportunity to become a full-time entertainer.  

Soon after, Billy was summoned to Brian’s office to find John there waiting for him with the suggestion that he add the “J” to his name to give it a “rock and roll edge”.  From that day forward, Billy has been known as Billy J. Kramer.

In March of 1963, Billy was the first person to have a hit record with a Lennon-McCartney song, “Do You Want To Know A Secret,” which was written specially for him by John and Paul and produced by George Martin at Abbey Road Studios even before The Beatles recorded it.

Billy toured extensively throughout the UK as the opening act for The Beatles both before and during Beatlemania.  Billy also headlined tours with such greats as Del Shannon, Gene Pitney, and The Everly Brothers.

Billy’s recordings of the Lennon-McCartney compositions, “Bad To Me” along with “I’ll Keep You Satisfied”, “From A Window”, and “I Call Your Name” all became international million sellers.  He also had a smash hit with the Mort Shuman/John Leslie McFarland song, Little Children.  

Released as a double sided single, Bad To Me and Little Children have the unique distinction of being the highest entry into the Billboard charts at #8.  That accomplishment has never been equalled.

Billy’s appearances on the Ed Sullivan show, Shindig, and Hullaballoo secured his place in rock ‘n roll history.  In 1964, Billy performed as part of the legendary T.A.M.I. show along with such artists as James Brown, Chuck Berry, The Beach Boys, Marvin Gaye, The Supremes , Smokey Robinson, The Rolling Stones and many others.

To commemorate his 50th anniversary in the music business, Billy recorded and released new material entitled “I Won The Fight”.  

Billy recently released his autobiography, “Do You Want To Know A Secret.”

Billy continues to record, perform and promote his Storytellers show to international audiences.

Please stick around at the end of the show for a really fantastic treat.  Billy has lent us his brand new Christmas song, “Christmas Kinda Feeling…”

Episode Transcript

Steve Cu (00:00):
On today's Story Beat.
I think you've always got to be prepared to give100% or more. You've got to be prepared that
there's going to be good times and bad times.
You've got to learn to deal with a lot ofrejection. The only other advice I can give is
enjoy it. Have fun with it.
This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden. A podcast forthe creative mind. Storybeat explores how masters

(00:28):
of creativity develop. And produce brilliant worksthat people everywhere love and admire. So join us
as we discover how talented creators find successin the worlds of imagination and entertainment.
Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.

(00:50):
Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We're comingto you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania. My guest today, the rock and rolllegend Billy J. Kramer grew up in Bootle, a
Liverpool suburb. Upon leaving school, he became atrain engineer by day and an aspiring singer by
night, performing under the stage name BillyKramer. Billy's performances at local rock clubs

(01:13):
around Liverpool soon brought him to the attentionof the one and only John Lennon. John urged Brian
Epstein to sign Billy to an exclusive managementcontract. Billy jumped at the opportunity to
become a full time entertainer. Soon after, Billywas summoned to Brian's office to find John there
waiting for him with the suggestion that he addthe J to his name to give it a rock and roll edge.

(01:38):
From that day forward, Billy has been known asBilly J. Kramer. In March of 1963, Billy was the
first person to have a hit record with a LennonMcCartney song, Do youo Want to Know A Secret?
Which was written specially for him by John andPaul and produced by George Martin at Abbey Road
Studios. Even before the Beatles recorded it,Billy toured extensively throughout the UK as the

(02:02):
opening act for the Beatles. Both before andduring Beatlemania. Billy also headlined tours
with such greats as Del Shannon, Gene Pitney andthe Everly Brothers. Billy's recordings of the
Lennon McCartney compositions Bad to Me, alongwith I'll Keep youp Satisfied From A Window and I
Call youl Name all became international millionsellers. He also had a smash hit with the Mort

(02:27):
schumann John Leslie McFarlane song LittleChildren. Released as a double sided single, Bad
to Me and Little Children have the uniquedistinction of being the highest entry into the
Billboard charts at number eight. Thataccomplishment has never been equaled. Billy's
appearances on the Ed Sullivan Show, Shindig andHullabaloo secured his place in rock and roll

(02:50):
history. In 1964, Billy performed as part of thelegendary Tammy show along with such artists as
James Brown, Chuck Berry, the Beach Boys, MarvinGaye, the Supremes, Smokey Robinson, the Rolling
Stones, and many others. To commemorate his 50thanniversary in the music business, Billy recorded

(03:12):
and released new material entitled I Won theFight. Billy recently released his autobiography,
do youo Want to Know a Secret? Billy continues torecord, perform and promote his Storytellers show
to international audiences. Won't you please stickaround at the end of the show for a really
fantastic treat? Billy has lent us his brand newChristmas song, Christmas Kind of Feeling. So for

(03:38):
all those reasons and many more, I'm beyondhonored and thrilled to welcome the great Billy J.
Kramer to Story Beat today. Billy, thanks so verymuch for joining me.
My pleasure. Steve, good to see you. Good to hearyou.
Well, thank you very much. So let's go back toyour very earliest roots. We mentioned it a little
bit in your bio, but you've been singing andperforming for quite a long time. At this point.

(04:01):
How old were you? At what point did you notice youhad singing ability?
I was in the school choir. I wasn't expecting tohear that. What happened was the music teacher
started playing a song and got us all singing andthen he ran around the classroom going, you're in
your. And you're. And, and you know, that was it.
I, I was in the choir and I never wanted to singsolo. I was a shy kid. But I joined the choir and

(04:30):
we, started doing festivals like in Farming,Outside of Liverpool, South Fork, Blackpool and
things like that.
And and so from that you had a, I guess a, aninkling that you had some talent and ability. And
so how long was it before you tried to then takethat to the, to the, the clubs and so on where
people could hear you perform?

(04:50):
It was quite a while, you know, I mean, m. I was akid then and I, I started rehearsing in a club in
Bootle called the Oliver Club and hooked up with aneighborhood friend. he was learning the guitar, I
was learning the guitar. And from each of his lastside, we'd pass it on to each other. And we

(05:10):
started, playing in his parlor. at the timeskiffle was very popular.

Steve Cuden (05:16):
Skiffle, big stuff.
We started off playing the skiffle one. Lonnie,ah, Donnican was very popular.
Well, the Beatles, Lennon and McCartney wereskiffle musicians as well.
Yes, I think everybody was, you know, because itwas not long after World War II. It was a cheap
way of kids putting a band together. You know, allyou needed was like a teacher, broom handle and

(05:39):
cord, a washboard, cymbals that kind of stuff. Sothat's how it really started. And then it went on
to rock and roll, you know, I mean, and that cameabout because most kids were listening to Radio
Luxembourg on a Sunday night.
you started out also playing the guitar, is thatright?
I started off playing the guitar and I formed aband with my friends, school friends and

(06:06):
neighborhood friends. And we started to rehearsein a legion hall close by called the Odva Club.
And the secretary of the club came up to me oneday and says, you know, you're using all this
electricity and everything, so you got to pay usback some way. And you have to do a, a show on a
Saturday night really. So it was, there was neveranybody in the club, but we started playing on

(06:31):
Saturday nights. We had different singers. Iwasn't interested if we had a singer. I wanted to
play guitar and that was the end of it. And but westarted to get popular locally and there was
always a line on the Saturday night and the placewas packed out.
And you had, you had no formal training as asinger?
I had no training. I, I wasn't, I was a bit selfconscious, to tell you the truth.

(06:54):
Why?
Well, because I always thought that I wasoverweight and I didn't think I was, that I didn't
think I was good. Look how I didn't think I was,the right kind of.
Well, eventually you had, you had women screamingat you later.
Yeah, I mean, that surprised me, you know, but,that's how that started.
So you were fortunate in that you were in. Andcorrect me if I have the geography wrong, but

(07:19):
Liverpool and Bootle were in Merseyside. Is thatcorrect?

Billy J. K (07:23):
That's correct, yes.
Okay, so. And at that time, correct me again ifI'm wrong, there were a whole, not just the
Beatles, but a whole lot of musicians and rock androll players.
Oh yeah, there was a lot of bands. It was like theSearchers, King Size Tale, the Dominoes, France,
Flamingos, the Foremost. There was hundreds ofgroups.

(07:44):
Were they. Were you pushing one another to, to getbetter and improve? Was it a kind of like a.
Competitive thing in the beginning? It's strangebecause everybody, you know, was doing the old
thing. There were some people were doing coversand getting tunes that were not familiar, but
changing the arrangement, turning songs into rockand roll, if there was any trying to compete, I

(08:08):
think it was in a, in a nice way. It wasn't. Therewas no nastiness about it, but there was the.
I guess it was in the air that People werestarting to play rock and roll music and rhythm
and blues was an influence. But the Merseysidemusicians were influencing one another, don't you
think?
Oh, I think so, definitely. I always thought thegreat thing about the Beatles was the selection of

(08:33):
cover songs was very unique. There were songs thatweren't, you know, played by every. Anybody else.
Right. Well, but they also were very great, agreat band in the sense that they could play
almost anything. And they did play many differentthings.

Billy (08:48):
The covers were amazing.

Steve Cuden (08:50):
Oh, truly amazing.
They're truly amazing. And there were songs we'dnever heard before.
Do you have other musical interests beside rockand roll and which you came from? Do you also
listen or want, to play other kinds of music?
At that time I was mostly focused on the peoplewho were popular, you know, like Fats Domino,

(09:11):
Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Gene Vincent, allthem kind of people.
Right.
I used to cover their songs in my set, you know,plus things that were in the charts I'd cover. I
do Dale Shannon songs, do a Royal Orbison song, alot of different things. And you know, I'd rock up

(09:32):
like that song Tennessee Walsh. I'd do that.
Well, at the risk of dating myself and I don'tmind doing so. You know, you're part of my youth.
I absolutely listened to your work when I was akid. I'm that old where you're part of my youth
and so I, I'm wondering who was influencing youfrom before. Was it the, the great R and B artist,

(09:54):
is that who influenced you?
Absolutely. I didn't try to take anything fromthem. You know, I, I liked it, but I didn't think
it was the right material for me.
But the influence was somehow there as part ofthat whole movement toward rock and roll, I think.

Billy J. Kramer (10:08):
Oh absolutely.
So I, I'm going to ask you a question I ask lotsof guests and I'm always fascinated by the answer
and I'll really be interested in your answer foryou. When you listen to songs from a criterion
perspective, what makes a good song good for you?
Why is a song good?
The lyrics for one. The M melody. And you know,it's like, I'll be honest with you, it's like what

(10:34):
can I do? If it's a cover, what can I do to makeit mine? I think that's, you know, you got to find
a way of doing yourself.
Well, Billy, there's no one that sings quite likeyou. I mean, you're a unique singer and so you
thinking, how do you make it yours makes it eventhat much more special. I assume it's unusual for
an act to be just like everybody else and succeedand you weren't like everybody else.

(10:59):
Well, you know, I'm flattered you say that, youknow.
Well, I think, I think it shows in all of yourhits. That's where I think it really shows.
You know, a lot of people tell there's a lot ofother stuff out there apart from the hits.
Well, there, in fact, there's a ton of greatstuff, including your very newest album, which is
called are you with me? I think the beats that youhave in that record are fantastic. That you're

(11:24):
still playing that kind of music and singing itand creating it, I think is a real testament to
your, dedication to that whole, oeuvre.
I'm always, you know, I try to write things. Idon't write a lot of things, but I try. And I'm
always looking for new material.
So do you think about that material with youraudience in mind, or are you only thinking about

(11:47):
the material that appeals to you and then you hopethe audience will come along with you?
I hope that theirs will come along. That'll be,something that I really, really like to do, you
know.
So when I listen to you sing all the way, goingall the way back to the beginning and even to the
new stuff, what you impress me most about is how Ihope this sounds right. You sing in a laid back

(12:09):
and cool manner. It's not frenetic, it's notscreamy. It's very, very beautiful sounding. How
much does passion for the music play into the wayyou're singing?
you've got. You've got to be passionate about it.
And, you know, I always find. Try to find songsthat I, I really like that, that get to me, you

(12:31):
know what I mean?
You have to feel it in your heart, don't you?
I have to feel it. And, you know, you can get. Imean, sometimes I get. I have a song sent to me,
you know, and it's just occasionally that onewill, you know, come out, hit me. You know, it's
like when I did, are you with me? Prior to it, Ipulled up like 10 songs that I. That I wanted to

(12:52):
do, and I was all set. You know, we were demoingthem and stuff like that. And then Mark Hudson
sent me this song. You know, I couldn't have doneit without you. And I was like, it knocked me out.
So I thought, I've got to get rid of one of theothers, this is better. I got it.
The great producer, Mark Hudson.
Yes.
Did he write that song or did he just send it toyou?

(13:13):
He wrote that song with some other people.
Interesting. How wonderful. And you also have onthat album Jealous Guy, one of John, Lennon's
songs. Yes. And what was it about that song thatbrought you in? I know it's Lennon, but why that
song?
I think it's a great song. it's a song that Istarted to do on his birthday as a tribute and
people liked it. So I, I thought it was a, a goodchoice.

(13:37):
I, I think it's a really excellent choice. It'sone of his better solo songs, I should say. among
your songs, do you have one that you never tire ofthat you can always sing?
Jealous Guy. From time to time you come across asong and you might like it for a while, but you
can fill up with it and you can't inject thepassion into it. So I always try and find

(14:01):
something else.
So I would be remiss if I didn't spend a littlebit of time talking about your influences from the
Beatles, because obviously they helped start youin the business, or at least John Lennon did for
sure. Did you know when you were first dealingwith them back in the day that the Beatles would
become as huge and be around as long as they havebeen? Did you know it then?

(14:26):
Yes, I did.
You did? What was it about them?
I knew from the first time I saw them.
Did you see them at the Cavern Club?
I saw them at the Cavern, but I also first sawthem at little in Town Hall.
And you knew from the first time you saw themthere was something about them?
Yes, they were very unique. they just hadsomething that was, ah, charismatic.
All right, so you not only received songs fromthem to sing, but you also then toured with them

(14:49):
and you spent, I assume, quite a bit of timehanging around with them as you toured.
You know, I hung out with them in Liverpool beforethey made records. You know, sometimes we used to
go to a bowling alley in Tubro, play ten pinbowling really late at night after the gigs,
really, you know, those things like that. And wewere friends, you know, I mean, I think one year

(15:11):
they gave me like an Elvis album for my birthday.
Wow, that's. Yeah, that's you. I assume youunderstand how truly special that is.
Yes, absolutely special. You know, I mean, I thinkit's seemed at the time everything was going so
fast. I don't think I appreciated it as much as Ido now.

(15:33):
I think that. That's true for a lot of artists,and we've talked about this on the show with other
guests, that the artists themselves frequentlydon't appreciate what it is that they're doing. It
takes the audience to tell them how good theirwork is. Usually artists don't know. They know
where all the mistakes are.
I'm always terrible. I mean, I'll come off stageand say to Rose, what was it like? Do you think it

(15:56):
was any good?
Because you're too. It's the old cliche of you'retoo close to the forest for the trees. You can't
see it.
You know, putting songs together, I always startby. If I get a demo, I will try it in every
possible key. I'll, lock it around until I findwhat really suits me. It's like an instinct, you

(16:17):
know, like. But when I did Bad To Me, GeorgeMartin wanted me to do, do it like key of E. I
chose to do it in D because I thought I could putmore emphasis on different words and different
lines than what I could sing E in E because E wasmore pushing.
So when you work with an, I mean, you wererecorded by one of the greatest producers of all

(16:40):
time, George Martin. When you're working withsomeone like that, how easy is it for you to then
put your stamp on things? Or are they trying to.
Or is he trying to put his stamp on it?
Not at all. I mean, it would usually start off,you know, like, when I did Bad To Me, John Lennon
just played it on piano. And then he got to thecoast and he sat at the piano and he embellished

(17:03):
the song, you know, found nicer chords anddifferent chords, and they would knock it about
and come up with an arrangement, and then theywould. They would do the track, and then I come in
and do the singing. He never, you know, neverreally coached me. He let me do what I wanted. And
if there was something he didn't like, obviouslyhe will put it out, point it out. And he would

(17:28):
say, I think if you did this, it would be better.
You know, and that. That was the feedback. You'dgo back and forth that way, I assume.
Yes.
I think one of his great advantages, which hassort of been lost, was that he came from a
classical background. Is that correct?
Oh, yes. And that's why they always found niceCourts, you know, Because I'll be honest with you,

(17:49):
that to me, was very basic, and he reallyembellished it.
You know, he takes it and makes it unique orbrings it to a different level. Entirely.
That's right.
At that time, were you cognizant enough of musicin general to be able to make that kind of
influence, or did you need someone like him in theearly days?

(18:10):
I don't think so. I mean, the. The only thing thatI really needed was the. The song played in the
right key. The key. And, he. He more or less. Letme get on with you. Ah.
Know. How much did you rehearse songs before youwent in the studio?
I didn't. Well, I, Mean, do you want to knowsecrets? Sure. I mean, do. I did it on stage
before for a long time. I also did it in Hamburgat the Star Club. We recorded it as. We did it

(18:36):
live.
You. You actually recorded the recording that wasreleased. You did that live on stage the.
Way we did it live. We did it in the recording.
I see, I see. You took the live performance andbrought it into the studio.

Bil (18:48):
We did it exactly the same.
That's very interesting. what would you say arelessons that you learned from John Lennon, from
George Martin? Are there lessons that you learnedearly on that have carried you through to this
day?
Most of the songs I got on the day, I'd neverheard them before, really, and I had to learn them

(19:09):
and think, of how to sing them on the spot.
Can you read music as well, or do you do it all byear?
No, I can't. I just have a good ear.
That's amazing. And you were learning them in thestudio as you were getting ready to record?

Billy J. Kramer (19:21):
Yes.
That's incredible. I mean, that's. You have aphenomenal ear then. That's what you have. And
obviously you have super pitch.
It was. I'll be honest with you, it was a bitstressful and, texting.

Steve Cuden (19:33):
I bet it was.
And you look back and think, I could have donethis better. I, could have done that better.
all right, so then you eventually meet BrianEpstein and this is, this is a turning point for
you?
Yeah, I mean, the turning point because I'dreached the stage where I was gigging every night
of the week. I was also working British Rail and Iknew, you know, I was late nights and going to

(20:00):
work. I knew I had to make a decision. And I wasabout to depart from Liverpool to go to crew for a
year when Brian came along and said he'd like tomanage me.
Wow, that was fortuitous, huh?
You know, I was very flattered. quite honestly,there were other people around, but I don't think
I would have turned, made a career without beingApproached by Brian.

(20:24):
So I must so stop for just a moment and say thatfor those who don't know who Brian Epstein was, he
was the manager of the Beatles who took them totheir great stardom. And he found you as well.
He found me? He found Jerry and the pacemakersseller, Black, you know, he managed to bank all

(20:46):
the big three. He managed the foremost.
What, what did he do? How did he make thingshappen for you?
It was always a, an advisory, you know, he wouldcome to shows, he'd look at the set list and tell
me what he thought of it, what songs you'll keepin, what I should keep out, how I announce them.

(21:08):
It gives me better ideas of what to say to theaudience, stuff like.
That, you know, how important is the programmingof your evening songs? That is the order of the
songs. How important is that to making the showreally work?
Well, it's very important and it's something that,you know, you just have to work on, you know, the

(21:29):
right song to open with, the next song to followit, bringing audience up to bring them down.
They're always, you know, what, what I think aboutwhen I write as a sentence and sometimes I'll do
it for weeks.
So. So you've operated for most of your careerthen? You've now mentioned it a couple of times.

(21:49):
Off of your gut, off of your feeling, rather thansome great, intellectual exercise.

Billy J. Kramer (21:58):
Yes.
And that's important that an artist. I think it'simportant that artists feel things, but at the
same time you have to be practical, correct?
Absolutely. You know, I mean, I've, been verylucky, you know, I had great songs. Ah. I had a
great producer and a great manager and it was atthe right time.
Well, you're also lucky. You have a remarkablevoice. You look pretty doggone good on stage and

(22:22):
on camera. So all those things are, you know, youcan't control all of that. So, you know, there's a
degree of luck to it. But you worked at it too.
How long did you work as a singer before thingsreally started to happen for you?
Well, I mean, I played around the clubs inLiverpool for a number of years, you know, I did a
lot of shows at the Cavern, the Iron Door, AtriaInstitute, Blair Hall, Tower Ballroom, Congest

(22:48):
loads of places and it was good practice.
Did I read about you? That you started off, youwere kind of a shy person and, and that you.
Absolutely.
And so what did you do to come into yourself? Wasit just a lot of, a lot of performance or anything
else?
Well, you know, it what exactly happened was, wewould. The men were always searching for searches

(23:11):
for singers because I wouldn't take it up. Andthen they, they sort of gave me an ultimatum and
said, you're either going to give singing a shotor, know, get out of the band.
So at some point, you get, put together with aband called the Dakotas and eventually become

(23:31):
known as Billy Cr. Billy J. Kramer with theDakotas.
Not.
And the Dakotas. Why with and not.
And because they wanted their own identity. Youknow, it was a strange relationship, to be honest
with you. You know, I was from Liverpool, theywere from Manchester, and there's a difference.

(23:52):
And you know, I wasn't bothered. I just thought,you know, they were a good band. They were very
good in the studio. They could turn things aroundon a dime if they were asked. So I wasn't bothered
about names and stuff like that.
Right. Did you get along with them off stage aswell as on.
At times, not all the time, but I mean, I thinkthat happens with everybody.

(24:17):
Well, that's true. Well, that's true.
You know, you're on top of each other 24 hours aday, nearly every day of the week. And you know,
it was a, a very fast time. So you're bound to geton each other's nerves, I would think.
So you're on top of each other all the time. Soyeah, you're going to get on each other's nerves.
I mean, ultimately, look at what happened to theBeatles. That was a, They were as good a band as

(24:40):
they come, but they got on each other's nerveseventually too. What was it about that band that
made, at least at that time, your work elevate toa point where you had big hits. What was it about
that band?
They were at the time very accomplished musicians.
It's known now that a lot of bands in the 60s usesession plays. The Dakota's played on all my

(25:03):
records. You know, if I was in the studio and wewanted to change the key, they would do it
instantly. They were like session men actually.
But they were a band, you know, and in that waythey were very, easy to work with. Other ways it
was difficult because we always had a differenceopinion on what songs to record. We always had a

(25:28):
different opinion about the set list. I wasn't,quite frankly, I wasn't the star of the show. It
was all of us.

Steve Cuden (25:35):
It was the group.

Billy J. Kramer (25:38):
Yes.
That's why, you know, when you're saying mostpeople would not understand the difference between
Billy J. Kramer with the Dakotas vs Billy J.
Kramer and the Dakotas. But it makes a distinctionin terms of how you fit in the world, how people
think of you as. At that time, you were a unit. Atleast I think, to the public.

(26:00):
To the public, yes. I mean, they would do theculture thing. I, I never really.

Steve Cuden (26:06):
It did.
Didn't bother me. You know, it was like Brian saidat first it was going to be Villier, Kramer and
the Dakotas, and then they. I don't know why, forsome weird reason, they wanted it with the
Dakotas. Sure.
Well. And you've said why? Because they wanted tohave that distinction. which I find fascinating. I

(26:27):
mean, that's an artistic ego thing, is what'sgoing on at that point. You've spent virtually the
rest of your career, which is a healthy, longtime, as a solo act, right?

Billy J. Kramer (26:39):
Yes.
And what are the difference for you as a solo act,if any, between being a solo act and having a band
supporting you?
Well, there's a lot more responsibility. You know,you, you hire, you fire, you have to find the
right agents and stuff like that, you know. Andalso, you know, in my case, you've got to make

(27:01):
sure that the musicians are treated well and dothe right thing.
Have you been your own producer all these years,too?
I produced my singles, you know, I mean, I wascounting out last week. I think I made about 16 or
18 other singles that had never charted, really.
They may have gotten 100, but they never, theyweren't top 10m. And I, had a lot of saying then.

(27:27):
The only time that I really went out, was when Idid the album, I won the fight. And I did that
with a guy from Long island called Don Salenza.
And the two of us work solidly on that together.
Did you feel any difference in the way that thingswere controlled when you weren't in control?
Totally.

(27:48):
I really, I enjoyed it, you know, getting thingsfrom the start and taking them from maybe just an
acoustic guitar to a full production, you know, Imean, that was very rewarding. I wasn't self
indulgence, you know, I. I had to believe thatwhat I was doing was good, to things I could have

(28:09):
done better, but it was my first shot at doing awhole album.
Were you still going into the studio not knowingthe songs?
It's sometimes, you know, like the title track ofI Won the Fight was I Won the Fight. And what
happened was we had like 10 or 12 songs, and Isaid to Dom one day, we need something to tie

(28:29):
everything together and between us, we came upwith I won the fight there and then on the spot.
It's the only time it's happened.
So I know that lots of bands, bands in particularand some single writer singers, will go into the
studio with nothing and they will work their songsout in the studio. They'll write them, they'll

(28:51):
create the lyrics. I know that the Bee Gees didthat quite a bit and so on. Has that been a lot of
your experience where you go in with nothing andyou create it in the studio?
When I was, you know, I, I was still, I was withother record labels and by then, you know, I was
starting to do things with orchestras and singersand different things and they had to be, you know,

(29:15):
studios were very expensive then, you know, and itwas hard to get studio time. So you had to go, go
in there and because of the financial side of it,you had to be prepared to get it together by then.
I was always well rehearsed and knew what I wasgoing to do. There were things that, I'll be
honest with you, there were things that startedoff as just a group thing and ended up

(29:38):
orchestrated later.
Well, that's a, that becomes a monetaryconsideration then.
unfortunately, you know, I mean, when I did therecord Trains, Boats and Planes, all I did was put
a rhythm track together with the Dakotas and ah,George Martin overdubbed the strings really.
So, so that was put together a little bitdifferent than your very, very first stuff then.

(30:02):
Absolutely.
And so you've also written songs too over time.
When you sit down to write, do you write on aguitar or a piano or how do you write on the
guitar? What do you typically write? Lyrics ormusic?
First think of the melody first and then I thinkof an idea for the lyric.
I've written songs in my life and it's always beenmusic first. So I write to the music. That's what

(30:26):
you're saying. Do you not have a hook in mind oryou look for a hook.
After you have the melody sometimes, you know, Imean, I wrote the song Liu Bavu. I'd love to get
Brian Epstein and the hall of Fame. It juststarted off I wanted to write a song because we
were going through a period where people weren'twriting songs with three chords, they were writing

(30:48):
them with five or six. And I just thought, I wantto go back and I want to do something the old way,
like three chords. And all I had was the hookhome, to Liverpool with love. That was all I Had.
But that's what you need sometimes, is just thathook that gets you in. And then, Do you also then
play on the records, too?

(31:10):
No.
No, you're just writing on the records.
I don't think I'm good enough.
But you're good enough to create a song but notgood enough to play technically on an album.
I will come up with it roughly. And then I'll sitwith someone like Don Salenza, who will put it
together for me.
Well, certainly every video I've seen of you, andI've seen quite a few, you're never playing
anything. You're always out front singing.

(31:32):
So, sometimes I play on stage on the old song.
What. What do you think for you is the mostchallenging part of writing a song?

Billy J. Kr (31:41):
I think the lyrics.
Is it, as Billy Joel says, the tyranny of therhyme? Is that the problem?
Yeah, it's. It's, you know, it's. It's very hard.
Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's like. Yeah,it can take weeks. The Beatles must have had that
unique thing where they could just bag them off,but I don't think many people can.

(32:03):
They. They wrote it. They wrote many songs sittingin the studio on company time.
That's why they're still there after 60 years, Ithink. You know. Right. I think most people. You
can get an idea. It's like the song I did at MarkHudson's was something that I talked to him about,
the idea a year before.

Steve Cuden (32:25):
Oh, really?
And then he called me up off the blue and he said,do you know what we were trying to do something? I
said, yeah. He said, well, I've done it and put ittogether.
So that's a case of the material of some kind gotinput into his computer, into his brain, and it
took a while for the computer to figure it out,and then out it came. Yeah, that's sometimes just

(32:48):
how it works for art.
As I say, you can have an idea and it might be youjust can't get to it. And then a year later,
sometimes more, it'll come back.
Some Kind of Inspiration hits. Once you have asong that you've chosen, you've decided you're
going to choose this song or instead of that song,what is your first thing that you do? Is it you

(33:12):
learn the songs backwards and forwards, or is ityou go in and try and work it out in the studio
from a vocalist perspective?
I write the lyrics out on a piece of paper byhand, and then I sing it and then I play the demo.
If It's a demo. If I don't get it right, I rip thepaper up and start again. And I do that. Like, got

(33:34):
it off path.
Do you have a studio in your home?
No, I used to, but I don't know.
So therefore you're doing a recording, a demo andthen you're listening and then you're starting
over again. So that's time. There's a lot of timeinvolved.

Billy (33:48):
And I drive myself crazy.

Steve (33:51):
Are you a perfectionist?

Billy J. Kramer (33:52):
Absolutely.
You're a perfectionist. So that's. Those kinds ofthings that don't seem perfect to you, they make
you a little crazy.
You know, sometimes it might be just one thing.
It's like when I did Liverpool with Love. There'sa line in it where it was like. It says football
noise, which is a soccer Teddy Boys. No wonder ourparents cried, you know, because the Teddy Boys

(34:16):
were the bad boys. Yes. You know, but that line,it was like weeks, maybe a month before I, came up
with it. It drove me crazy.
This is a great question for me to understand howyou do things, me as an artist, which is when you
are being driven crazy like that. What do you do?
Do you take walks? Do you exercise? Do you listento other music? How do you deal with it?

(34:43):
I do it like I drive myself crazy. Can't do. Ijust reach a point where I go, I'll come back to
it.

Steve Cuden (34:50):
You let it go?
I let it go and then I go back to it.
You still enjoy performing live?
yes, I do. It's challenging. I still got nervous,but I don't know what. While I get that feeling
about it, I'll do it, you know.
I think the listeners should pay attention to whatBilly just said. He has been performing now for,
I'm, not going to say how many decades, but.

(35:11):
Decades. Decades. And you still get nervous?

Billy J. Kramer (35:13):
Absolutely.
I, ah, think that that is a sign, frankly, thatyou care.
Absolutely, I care. It's, it's what I've done mywhole life. And it's, you know, it's, it's I have
a passion for it. You know, sometimes I'll betotally where I'll, you know, I'll go through
periods where, I always say there's nothinghappening, you know, mentally as well as doing it.

(35:38):
And it always comes back, you know, it's. It'slike I went through a stage quite recently where I
thought, you know, I've done a whole albumtogether and I was going to put it out and I was
going, shall I Shantai and then somebody sent me asong and I went, yeah, I got to do it. And it's
always that. That next thing.
It is always that next thing. And there's alwaysthese little triggers in life that keeps pushing

(36:02):
you on, especially if you're an artist, which youclearly are, that you're going to keep doing art.
And it's not a. You don't run out of art. It justkeeps coming.
There's always a song that will come along. Itmight be the fact that it's a song that's a
challenge. You know, it might be a song thatrhythmically it's different than anything you've

(36:22):
ever done before. You know, learning things likethat and different tempos and different styles,
it's. It's challenging to learn it. And when youovercome it and you can do it, it's a great
feeling.
Do you feel like inspiration? Many creative peoplefeel like inspiration comes through them from
somewhere else, whether they call it God or theuniverse or whatever it is. Do you feel like your

(36:46):
inspirations come through you or you generatethem?
It's a bit of both. You know, I mean, I've. I, Youknow, I've been, like, stuck on a song, but then
I've got the idea and it might be a week or twolater and I'll be at a meeting or something and
I'll go home and I have the answers.
Once again, your computer in your head was workingon the problem, even in your sleep and even in

(37:10):
your downtime.
And eventually it's something like that, or I justthought, thank you. Another gift from God.
A gift from God. that's what I was curious about.
I. I want to go back a half a step to performance,which I'm fascinated by. You've been on some huge
stages in your career, not only performing, youknow, on tour with the Beatles, but I have to ask

(37:32):
you about the Ed, Sullivan show, because that wasreally for my youth. I watched the Ed Sullivan
show every Sunday night for years and years andyears. How nervous were you to do that show?
Obviously, I was nervous, but, you know, what hadhappened was I experienced doing Sunday Night at
the London Palladium, and I wasn't very good. Itdefinitely affected my record sales. I just

(37:56):
thought, I'm never going to let that happen again.
When I came to do a Sullivan show, we went in theafternoon, rehearsed, and then I just went back to
the hotel and watched TV and had something to eat.
And I came back as closer to the time as I couldand I just went on and did it. You look at the
camera and think there's like 70 odd millionpeople watching you. But I tried to think of it.

(38:21):
Isn't that great?
So the Palladium, that was the big show inEngland, the sort of Sullivan in England, but
Sullivan was even bigger in America. Am I right?
Yes.
If you could hit it on the Sullivan show, you weregoing to get somewhere with that.
I didn't realize that at the time.

Steve Cuden (38:38):
You didn't?
To me it was just a big TV show and I wanted to begood on it. And it came off well and I'm grateful
that it helped me.
Well, I would say so. And m. Am I correct that Iread correctly that you appeared four different
times on that show in a year?

B (38:53):
Yes. They must have liked me.
I would say they did. what did that show then doto your to use the word fame? How did it increase
your fame and did people start chasing you downthe streets at that point? Did it change things
for you?
that had already started in England, you know, Imean I was used to getting my clothes to off and

(39:17):
torn off people. Yeah, you know, I mean I rememberI was in Edinburgh one and I said to the road
manager, can you bring my. I had a black cordshirt and black brow. Can you bring it? And he
says, you look fine in what you're wearing. I waswearing a three piece suit that I had made in
London, Savile Row, very expensive. And this, thisgirl spotted me on the street, attracted a lot of

(39:42):
other people. I ended up getting the suit rippedoff.

Steve Cuden (39:45):
Oh my goodness.
You know, and things like that happened a fewtimes.
So that kind of fame came on fairly quickly foryou, did it not?
It came. You know, it's funny because I, I alwayssay that I got on a train to Manchester, William

Ashton and I mimed to a rec (39:59):
30.
Went home to having 500 kids outside the frontdoor.

Steve Cuden (40:09):
Oh my goodness.
In the same day, you know, so it's the same day.
Famous.
Well you, you brought up the name William Ashton.
That's your, your birth name.

Billy J. Kramer (40:19):
Yes.
And then became Billy J. Kramer. or you were BillyKramer and then Billy J. Kramer.
well, the guys in the band wanted me to have astage name and I said it's got to be Billy
something. And they came up with the Kramer andthen later John Lennon added the J.
Added the J. How do you think that fame thenchanged you? What did it do to you?

(40:42):
It was strange because it was a lot A lot toaccept. You know, I remember, sort of, I was on a
tour in Oxford and Brian Epstein called me andsays, you're going to be number one on the charts
tomorrow. And I'll be honest with you, I lay onthe bed and I said, where do I go from here,
really? What was like 1920? You know, what wasstrange was the Beatles all had each other. Me and

(41:04):
little coaches, we worked together, but we didn'thave each other. You weren't friends, they weren't
supportive. I always felt that the only reasonthat they took on the job of working with m me was
they were guaranteed a record deal on their own.
And so. So you had no support at that time fromthose surrounding you, except perhaps Brian

(41:28):
Epstein?
Yeah, well, I mean, quite honestly, they nevercame up with a song. You know, I came. The songs
were presented to me by John and Paul and theywere very rough. I had to arrange and put them
together. A lot of the ideas were mine. LittleChildren was the song I discovered. It was my
arrangement. You know, originally it was just ademo with Maud Schumer playing piano and singing

(41:54):
it very badly. But I saw the potential of thesong.
What I think is fascinating is you're talkingabout. I say this for the listeners who think that
show business is all peaches and cream. It's not.
You, actually have to struggle through certainthings behind the scenes to get to the success in

(42:15):
front of cameras and on recordings. And clearlyyou struggled with certain aspects of the
business.
It is a struggle and it's. To me, I look at itback now, I think that was very detrimental. Maybe
there was so much going on, I didn't need theaggravation.

Steve (42:31):
You survived it, clearly.
I would take a song to the Dakotas and, play it tothem. And they said, well, we can't see it. We
don't like that. We're not playing it.
And so what would you do with that? How would youdeal with it?
I just move on to something else.

Steve Cuden (42:45):
Something else.
That's all I did until. Until my contract with,Ami ran out and Brian Epstein was in the stage of
starting his own label. And I went out and for thefirst time I made a record with the Bee Gees. I
did a song called Town of Tuxed Toy Maker. It wasthe first time I'd used a big orchestra in the

(43:07):
studio and they were a bit annoyed with me, theDuchose. And I said, well, I've done something I
wanted to do without having to.
Ask you and do you feel like that impacted how youthen looked at the business. Did it change in any
meaningful way how you then approached findingsongs and then singing then as a solo act?

(43:29):
Yes, I started to, to really do a lot of research,you know, find out all about publishers and what
they had. I would sometimes take days in Londonand go to all the different publishers listening
to songs and I would take them all home and playthem and then occasionally want to jump at me and

(43:49):
not do it.
Did you ever go back and pull the songs that theDakotas rejected and record those?
The only song I did was I was in New York and aguy called Jack Nitze was producing Jackity
Shannon and he gave me needles and pins. And whenyou walk in the room and I asked, ah, the coaches,

(44:10):
they wouldn't play it. And I went on a tour ofAustralia and I did it live. And then when I came
back from Australia, I was on the plane and I readin the paper that the Searchers had done it.
There you go.
Which made me feel a bit sick.
Yeah, I imagine it did because there. Ah, but, butthat was also the day and age when it was fairly

(44:32):
common for covers to happen on a regular basis.
One band would, would. Yeah, different bands.
But I'm saying quite frankly, they, they did agreat version.
What is your storyteller show that I mentioned inthe bio? What is that?
It's more or less what we like we've been doingtoday. I talk about the songs, I talk about how

(44:54):
they were produced, how I got them, differentthings on the day of the sessions and then I play
the songs.

S (45:00):
You play them, not sing them.
Sometimes I use a band, sometimes I just use ah, acouple of guitar players. Sometimes I've done it
with tracks.
And is that all over the world? Is it just the us?
Is it the uk? Where do you do those?
Well, I've done it in the us, I've done it inEngland.
And you still, I assume, have quite a few fansaround the world?

(45:22):
they do, yes. You know, which is very rewarding.
People still listen to what you did and it hasn'tgone away. I mean it may not be on radio play
today, but it's still out there in streaming andeverywhere else. It's on YouTube and all kinds of
things.

B (45:37):
People tell me it's historic.
Well, see, it is historic. it's now classic of itsera. tell us about your book, do youo Want To Know
A Secret? Is it pure autobiography?
It's pure autobiography. I was talking to ah,Frank Stallone, Sylvester Stallone's brother in
California. I was doing a show there, with him,and he just said to me, you ever thought of

(46:02):
writing an autobiography? And I said, I've neverthought about it. I've got a couple of notes at
home to. Main thing is, who do I do it with? Andhe suggested Alan Shipton, who'd done Get
Galloway, all the Jazz People. And he'd just doneHarry Nielsen's book and got a lot of awards
stuff. And he gave me his phone number and emailaddress. And, I got on to him and he, he said, I'd

(46:28):
love to do it, which actually surprised me. Andthen he came to New York and spent some time with
me. You know, I wanted it to be factual. A lot ofsex and drugs and rock and roll. But when he came
on tour with me in England and we put it together,I wouldn't do it again.

(46:49):
I understand. You would not do it again. I get it.
It's a lot of work and it's a hard, hard road tohoe. and, But it must be satisfying to have it out
there.
It is. But, you know, it's like sometimes, youknow, it's like things will jump. Like I forgot
the fact that, like, I was very close to JeanVincent when I was in Hamburg. You know, stories
about that. Then, you know, there's like theFlying Scotsman to train. I worked on the railway.

(47:14):
I worked on the train when I was on the railway.
I'd forgotten all about things like that. I'd belying in bed, somebody could jump back. It was
strange.
Well, but you're not going to do a revised versionof the book with all the added stories?

Billy (47:27):
No, I might just do that.
Well, so you could re release the book. You rerelease it and you refresh and it's the same
thing, only it's, a new day for it.
I think it's a new day and I think I'd be morefocused now.
Well, then have at it, because that just gives youmore opportunities to get your story out there. So

(47:50):
I have been having just the most fun talking toBilly J. Kramer for almost an hour now. And we're
going to wind the show down just a little bit. AndI'm just wondering, Billy, you've told us all
these wonderful stories. Is there a story you canshare with us that's either weird, quirky,
offbeat, strange, or just plain funny from yourillustrious career?

(48:10):
There's a couple. You know, it's like I was onstage outside of London and it was a time when
flower pot was all ago. I was on stage in acaftown. What's that? Beads and all the things.
And there was these girls at the front screamingand all that stuff. And a guy walked on the stage
from the side and poured a pint of beer over myhead.

Steve Cuden (48:32):
Why?
I said, why did you do that? And he said, I didn'twant it. So, you know, to me, I always thought,
like, how would you answer that?
He just didn't want the beer and he dumped it onyour head instead of.
I mean, funny enough, I could see the funny sideof it.

St (48:50):
Did you continue to perform?
Absolutely. Nothing stops the mark.
What did the audience do? Did they cheer or moanor what did they do?
They were aghast. I've had odd things happen. Iwas in, California. I was doing a people festival,

(49:13):
and a girl walk on the stage with a sock framedbehind glass. And she come up with this story
about how, when I was on tour there in the 60s,she crept into my bedroom and stole a pair of my
socks.

Steve Cuden (49:28):
Oh, my goodness.

Billy J. K (49:30):
And had them framed.

Steve Cuden (49:31):
Oh, my goodness.

Billy (49:33):
I thought that was weird.
That's a little weird. Did she ask you to signthem or something?
No, I was like, I'll be honest with you in thatone. I didn't know what to say because I didn't
know what to say. Yeah. I was like, are you jokingor. Ah. What? You know, I didn't know what to say.
Stole your sock. Oh, gosh. That's also a littlecreepy, don't you think, that somebody snuck into

(50:00):
your room?

Billy (50:00):
I thought it was creepy.
so. All right, last question for you today, Billy.
you shared with us massive amount of advicethroughout the whole show. Lots of thoughts for
people who are trying to get into this business ortry to make something of themselves. Do you have a
single solid piece of advice or a tip that youlike to give to those who are starting out or
maybe they're in a little bit trying to get to thenext level?

(50:23):
I think you've always got to be prepared to give100% or more. You've got to be prepared that
there's going to be good times and bad times.
You've got all that to do with a lot of rejection.
The only other advice I can give is enjoy it, havefun with it.
I think that's inspiring. yeah, it's going to behard work all the way through, but you've got to

(50:46):
stay inspired and make things happen. If you'regoing to. If you're really going to be in the
business, that's for sure. And clearly you havedone that. You've. You've stuck with it a long
time. And I give you lots of credit.
There's always bumps in the road.
There are. As my grandmother used to say, there'salways a fly in the ointment. She used to say that
phrase, you know, and so you have to kind of takethe good with the bad, and you work through those

(51:10):
things. And that's what makes life. Life. It'swhat makes the journey interesting.
I realized I'd never done an audition, auditionfor something. And Brian Epstein and other people
have mentioned, like, do the music or something.
And I saw the play Blood Brooks, and I thought tomyself, I can do that. I don't have to learn an

(51:31):
accent because it's a Liverpool play. all I haveto do is learn the songs. And I learned the songs,
I learned the dialogue. I auditioned in a theateron Broadway. It was something I wanted to do. And
they said you'd be great. They never called meback. And what came to me was quite honest. I
thought of, like, actors who go on auditions everyday of the week, every day, look back, and,

(51:58):
that's, you know, you have to learn to, just letit roll off you.
Well, you had a little bit of spoilage in thesense that it was. It happened to you fairly
quickly, early on without you having to go throughall that process. But, yeah, there are actors that
get up every single day and go on auditions anddon't get cast. And don't get cast. And don't get
cast until Sunday. Something catches.

(52:20):
One time you had to have a record deal. You know,most of the record companies at their own studios,
things like that, people are making their ownmusic in their own studios or hiring studios. So
it's a different process.
It's definitely a different process today than itcertainly was back in the day when you started.
Well, you know, let's face it, there's no. There'sno CDs. Vinyl's made a sort of comeback. it's

(52:46):
strange that everything's a download, it'sstreaming. I think it's unfortunate because I
think kids are missing something.
I miss album covers. I miss being able to read thelyrics and look at pictures.
I miss all that and who played on it and all theinformation.

Steve Cuden (53:01):
Exactly.
I think that's a missing thing.
Well, liner notes were an art form at one time,and album covers were an art form.

Billy J. Kramer (53:08):
They were, yes.
They were prized, but not anymore. Now it's allgone.
I think It's. I think it's missing.
Well, I agree with you. I think it's desperatelymissing, and I don't see it coming back anytime
soon. But that's the way it is.
You never know.
You don't know. You're correct. But I don't. Idon't envision it happening tomorrow.

(53:29):
I don't put you. Did you ever think bottle willcome back?
No, I didn't think it would come back. And I. Andit certainly hasn't come back as big as it once
was, but did come back.
Yeah. And I think it could happen with CDs andthings.
well, I agree. CDs, I think, are a fine form. Idon't know about eight tracks or cassettes,

(53:51):
because I think they wear down too easy. But vinylyou can keep, and CDs definitely work. And you're
always going to have, I think, at this point, someform of streaming. And so there you have it. The
question is, can anybody make any money at itanymore? Anymore? That's the problem.
It's too. It's very difficult, you know. And,that's why I think a lot of today's bands, they.

(54:13):
It's the doing shows, festivals, big audiences,that. That's the only way. And I. I think that's
very sad.

Steve Cuden (54:21):
It is.
I also think, like, how. How did new people gettheir stuff out to the public?
They can't.
And the only way is by doing these festivals andthings and touring with.
And touring as an opening band for some bigger actand that kind of thing.
Well, you know, I mean, I think it's, you know,people like Paul McCartney and, Bruce Springsteen
and people like that, I think they're okay withit. But I think there's a lot of smaller. People

(54:46):
are not getting the breaks that I think they'reused to and they're getting now.
I agree. It's. And it's much harder because it'sharder to get what used to be called radio play
that's sort of gone away and now you have to findstreaming.
Let's face it. I mean, these radio shows wherethey'll play one after another, announcements and
new DJs with new ideas to come along.

(55:08):
And it makes it harder for someone new as anartist to become known.

Billy J. (55:13):
It's just really hard.
So, Billy J. Kramer, this has been so much fun forme, and I really can't thank you enough, really,
for your time, your energy, and for your greatwisdom and for all that music from my youth and
which I still treasure, and I thank you so muchfor spending time with me on the show today.
Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

(55:33):
And now, as promised, Billy has been so verygenerous to lend us his wonderful new Christmas
song. So please sit back and enjoy Billy J.
Kramer's Christmas Kind of Feeling.
It's, a Christmas kind of feeling Jolly JimAppealing, cozy and warm Time for getting together

(56:00):
Sharing that Christmas feeling once more look atthe snow on the rooftop and the stars in the
winter sky the Santa will be coming soon with toysfor those who be nice It's a Christmas kind of

(56:27):
feeling Jolly appealing, cozy and warm Time forgetting together Sharing that Christmas feeling
once. More. Father goes out to the front yard toheat up the car outside Mother rounds up all the

(56:54):
kids for the holiday party tonight It's aChristmas kind of feeling Jolly appealing, cozy
and warm Time for getting together Sharing thatChristmas feeling once more. M M Aunties and

(57:35):
uncles, Sisters and brothers Raising the glass oneby one to our gifts the good Lord giveth and
peace, they pray will come It's a Christmas kindof feeling Jolly appealing, cozy and warm Time for

(58:02):
getting together Sharing that Christmas feelingonce more It's a Christmas kind of feeling Jolly
appealing, Cozy and warm Time for getting togetherSharing that Christmas feeling once more It's a

(58:27):
Christmas feeling for sure.
And so we've come to the end of today's StoryBeat. If you like this episode, won't you please
take a moment to give us a comment, rating, orreview on whatever app or platform you're
listening to? Your support helps us bring moregreat Story Beat episodes to you. Story Beat is

(58:50):
available on all major podcast apps and platforms,including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify,
iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until nexttime, I'm Steve Cuden and may all your stories be
unforgettable.