Joe Wos, Cartoonist-Illustrator-TV Host-Episode #380

Joe Wos is the 6-time Emmy Award-winning creator and host of “Cartoon Academy” as seen on PBS affiliates nationwide.

Joe’s been a professional cartoonist since the age of 14. Over the past 35 years, as he’s sought new and innovative ways to pursue his passion for the cartoon arts, his career path has taken as many twists and turns as one of his wonderful mazes. For example, he spent 30 years touring the U.S. as a performer, illustrating stories live as he told them. He founded and ran a cartoon art museum here in Pittsburgh called the Toonseum. He illustrated symphony performances live with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. And he’s exhibited his art in museums worldwide. Beyond all that, Joe’s been the visiting resident cartoonist of the Charles M. Schulz Museum for over 23 years.

With MazeToons — his unique hybrid illustration that is part cartoon and part puzzle — Joe has fulfilled a lifelong dream to appear in the funny pages.

He’s the author and illustrator of a dozen books, including “A-Maze-Ing Peanuts”, “Mega Maze Challenge,” “Our A-Maze-Ing National Parks,” “A-Maze-Ing America,” “A-Maze-Ing Animals,” “The Exploding Kittens Activity Book,” and many more.  Joe’s also the Brand Character Integrity Consultant and artist for Charlie the Tuna of StarKist fame.

Joe won the 2020 Divisional Reuben Award for the Variety Category as presented by the National Cartoonists Society.

For the record, Joe and I have known one another for more than a decade, from his days running the Toonseum here in Pittsburgh. 

 

Episode Transcript

Steve Cu (00:00):
On today's Story Beat.
And Fred Rogers took one look at me, knew nothingabout me, and said, you're an artist, aren't you?
And I said, yes, I'm a cartoonist. He said, well,please keep drawing. I think it's wonderful that
you're an artist. Fifteen years later, Fred camedown to watch my show, so I brought him back. And
Fred came to me and said, you know, I loved yourwork. Your storytelling was very beautiful and the

(00:21):
way you interact with the children is so nice. AndI said, you know, this isn't the first time we
met. And I met you and you looked at me and said,you. You're an artist, aren't you? And Fred Rogers
looked at me and said, well, I was right, wasn'tI?
This is Story Beat with Steve Kewton, a podcastfor the creative mind. Story Beat explores how

(00:43):
masters of creativity. Develop and producebrilliant works that people everywhere love and
admire. So join us as we discover how talentedcreators find success in the in. The worlds of
imagination and entertainment. Here now is yourhost, Steve Cuden.

(01:07):
Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We're comingto you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania. My guest today, Joe Wos is the sixtime Emmy award winning creator and host of
Cartoon Academy as seen on PBS affiliatesnationwide. Joe's been a professional cartoonist
since the age of 14. Over the past 35 years, ashe's sought new and innovative ways to pursue his

(01:31):
passion for the cartoon arts, his career path hastaken as many twists and turns as one of his
wonderful mazes. For example, he spent 30 yearstouring the US as a performer, illustrating
stories live as he told them. He founded and rana, cartoon art museum here in Pittsburgh called
the Toonseum He illustrated symphony performanceslive with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, and

(01:54):
he's exhibited his art in museums worldwide.
Beyond all that, Joe's been the visiting residentcartoonist of the Charles M. Schultz museum for
over 23 years. With Mazetoons his unique hybridillustration that is part cartoon and part puzzle,
Joe has fulfilled a lifelong dream to appear inthe funny pages. He's the author and illustrator

(02:16):
of a dozen books, including Amazing Peanuts MegaMaze Challenge, Our Amazing National Parks,
Amazing America, Amazing Animals, the ExplodingKittens Activity Book, and many more. Joe's also
the brand, character, integrity, consultant andartist for Charlie the Tuna of Starkist fame. Joe

(02:39):
won the 2020 Divisional Rubin Award for thevariety category as presented by the National
Cartoonist Society. For the record, Joe and I haveknown one another for more than a decade. From his
days running the Toonceum here in Pittsburgh. Sofor all those reasons and many more, I'm truly
delighted to have the prolific cartoonist Joe Wosjoin me on Story Beat today. Joe, welcome to the

(03:02):
show.
Thanks so much for having me. What a delight to behere.
Well, it's a great pleasure and privilege to haveyou here. So let's go back in time a little bit.
How old were you when you first noticed drawingsand cartoons?
I was four years old. my parents got me drawing onthe walls with a crayon. And, they didn't yell,
they didn't scream, they taped paper up on thewalls and said, go ahead. And I have been drawing

(03:24):
ever since.
Wow. So they gave you the means to do it and theylet you go.
Yeah. And it's an important thing because I saythere's only a couple things you need to be a
really successful cartoonist, when you're startingout young. the first is something to draw on. It
can be paper, cardboard, a computer, whatever,something to draw with, again, markers, crayons, a

(03:45):
stylus, an imagination that inspires you tocreate. But one of the most important things is
encouragement. Friends, fans, parents, teachers,someone who says, hey, you're pretty good at this.
Keep it up. I think that's so important and it'sprobably one of the most overlooked, things that
we need.
I certainly think that's important for all artistsof all kinds that, that they have some

(04:10):
encouragement. And I think it's very damagingsometimes when they receive little or none as a
young person, they have to be very selfdisciplined to get to that next step.
Yeah. Although, I will say that sometimes I'venoticed that I've succeeded not in spite of
people, but to spite people. all those teacherswho said, you know, what are you thinking? I do

(04:30):
make a living drawing your little doodles, stufflike that. So there is something to be said for, a
little bit of pushback now and then to really justlight that fire.
Well, of interest, I mean, you probably rememberthat I have written 90 cartoons for, you know,
animation. But it's your art, your form of art.
Cartooning and what I wrote. Many people thinkit's silly or not adult or why are you bothering

(04:57):
with that? Why aren't you doing something serious?
But it is, isn't it?
It is a silly business that we're in. But at thesame time, you know, cartoons, almost across the
board were created for an adult audience.

Steve Cuden (05:09):
Yes, that's true.
The comic strips were created so that, peoplewould read the back pages where the advertisements
were Exactly. Kids reading those were the grownups animation. You look at the early Betty Boop
cartoons and Popeye cartoons, it is clear theywere made for adults. The only reason they became
for kids is because, you know, in the 1950s, allthose cartoons were just sitting in a warehouse

(05:30):
somewhere. Saturday mornings were just a deadzone. There was nothing on television. And they
realized they could buy up these cartoons realcheap, hire a literal clown to come out and say,
hey, hey, kids, here's another Popeye cartoon. AndSaturday mornings were born. And that's where you
get that even stronger association with kids.
Walt definitely made cartoons for kids. Animationfor kids.

(05:52):
He did, but he didn't consider that. He viewed itas he was making cartoons for everybody.
An art form. It was his art form.
Yeah, he was making an art form that was foradults and kids and it was just for everybody. So
a lot of times they don't go into it saying, okay,I'm creating something for kids. They say, I'm
going to create something for everybody. And whenyou do that, it gets that dreaded letter G in the

(06:15):
rating, which is so strongly associated withchildren that we forget that that G means general.
It's for everybody.
Exactly. And it is. It becomes associated one wayor another psychologically for an audience to
overcome whether they want to go see something ornot. Most adults think to themselves, I don't want
to see something that's a cartoon. I want to seesomething that's live action and full of violence.

(06:39):
Which, by the way, can very much be part ofcartooning.
Absolutely. Cartoons have a rich tradition ofviolence.
Indeed they do. So who were your influences wayback when? Who did you, as a kid, as you were
drawing and drawing, who did you look at and thinkto yourself, wow, that's really great. I want to
be like them?
It was Charles M. Schultz. Charles M. Schultz,creator of Peanuts. Snoopy. That was my hero.

(07:02):
Probably among the very first things I ever drewwere Snoopy and the Gang. that was number one. he
was first and foremost in my heart, in my mind andin my work, my biggest influence. But then as I
got a little older, I discovered Sergio Aragonesfrom MAD magazine, another big influence.
Goodness. Just so many. Chuck Jones. Ah, workingLooney Tunes. And then as I got even older, I was

(07:29):
still learning and discovered, Walt Kelly, andPogo and Crockett, Johnson and Barnaby. And, you
know what happens with style is you end up with somany different influences that at some point you
reach a point where all those little pieces becomeyou and become your style. And you could look at
my work, and you stare at it, and stare at. Yougo, I don't see anything that looks remotely like

(07:55):
any of the people he's mentioned. Like, that'swhat happens. Your style evolves because you're
taking a piece here, piece there, and it becomessomething new.
Well, and you come through. Your voice, your arm,your brain, you're creating something, and
suddenly it's yours, not someone else's. How longdo you think it took in your life before you had
that style that was uniquely you?
You know, I probably, by the time I was about 11,I had a style that was developing that was

(08:22):
uniquely me. Now it changes. I have a style that'sevolved over the past couple years that is a
direct result of when I taught my kids to draw.
And I was very hands off because I wanted them tohave their own style. I didn't want them to be
under Dad's shadow. But what I would do is I wouldtry and learn to draw in their style. So that if

(08:45):
they said to me, you know, hey, dad, how do Idraw, hippopotamus? I would draw it in their
style, not my own. That influenced me. And now Ihave a style that I'll use that is, strongly
influenced by my, daughter Lyda's work. You neverstop developing and growing and changing. But you
can look at my stuff and you'll know that's JoeWoes.

(09:07):
You're absolutely right. I know when I seesomething and I know it's yours, it's not someone
else's, it's yours. you can tell it has a verydistinct look to it. Plus, you're a very colorful
cartoonist. It has a certain brand of color to it.
Yes, I definitely am sort of that vibrant schoolthat I. That I like.
No question.
I like bold colors. I like, I like the light ofcartooning. Nothing wrong with the stuff that's

(09:31):
darker. You know, the Batmans and, you know, someof the darker comic book stuff that's out there. I
enjoy that stuff. But, you know, I want to putsomething out in the world that makes people
smile. They look at the drawing, it makes themfeel like, oh, that's cute. I like that.
There's no question your work is not pastels. It'snot cleverly shaded. It's bright, bold, very

(09:55):
cartoony. But it's very much you, for sure. Sowhy. Obviously, as a kid, it was something that
brought you to it. But why cartooning? Why didn'tyou eventually turn into a fine artist or A
sculptor or something else like that. Whycartoons?
I easily could have. I mean, I did, you know, do alot of sketching and stuff, and it bored me out of

(10:19):
my mind. I find, you know, love the work thatpeople produce in fine art. for me to look at a
tree, draw the tree, exactly what I see, captureon paper is beautiful to look at. To me, the
process of that is just boring. for me, again, Iwant to be very clear. This is just my opinion.

(10:47):
Cartooning, does two very contrary things. Itsimplifies and it exaggerates. So it simplifies
all that line and shadow and texture into justvery simple line work and shapes. And yet it
exaggerates the features and the concepts and thepersonalities and makes it much bigger. So the

(11:10):
very opposite things, very polar opposites. butcartooning, to me, the appeal was that ability to
create again. I can look at a tree, I can see atree. I draw the tree. Great. Done. cartooning,
I'm creating something that doesn't exist. I'mbringing something into this world, and I think I
got a real thrill out of that.
And I'll take it a step further for you. It's fun.

(11:33):
It is. It is just fun to see lines fall a certainway. And you go, ah. Ah. There. That. I captured
it. It's right. I'll give you an example. I'mdoing these very simple, drawings that are. You
know, the term would be caricature, but in.

(11:55):
Honestly, my style is more cartoony thancaricature style.
Sure. Absolutely.
So they're cartoon. My style. And I did this oneof Larry David, curb your enthusiasm and is simple
lines. So simple. And it's one, eyebrow raised,the other one just cocked slightly, and then the

(12:15):
turn of the mouth downward. It is a simple line.
And I probably did it four or five times before Iwent. That's the expression. That's the perfect
expression. That line, the way it fell just right.
Sometimes it's an accident. But that's what I loveabout cartooning. When you look at something go,
ah. yes. That line right there is the finishingtouch. That completes the character. That's what

(12:39):
was missing. That is what brings it to life.
What do you think? Is it in your mind, in yourbrain, that enables you to look at a person or a
landscape or whatever and see it in simple lines?
What do you think that translation is?
You know, I actually think, for me, you know, Igrew up, dyslexic. The concept of, like, the

(13:00):
letters on a page backwards you know, they'd fliparound. And the breakthrough was a teacher who
said, hey, you love to draw. Draw your words. Soif I learned a word like cat, I would take those
letters and turn them into a drawing.
So you could see the shape of the letters in whatyou were looking at?

(13:21):
Yes. So I see. So I stopped seeing letters asletters and started seeing them as shapes and
images.
Interesting.
And it was sort of this breakthrough for me oflike, oh, just forget that it's a shape. It's just
a line. And drawing is a lot like writing. Okay.
You have a line, and then you put this next line,and then the next line, and then you put it all

(13:43):
together. You get a word. Okay, so cat is a word.
Well, for me, it's for drawing a cat. It's aletter A. It's, an O for the I's another O. An
upside down letter T for the mouth. And you putthat all together and there's a draw.
That's great.
So my teaching method, when I teach you to draw,is always to learn how that learning how to draw

(14:03):
isn't actually learning how to draw. It's learninghow to see. It's learning how to see the world
around you by seeing the shapes, by converting theshadows into line. So I think that's one of the
big things for me is that. That I see those shapeseverywhere. And then sometimes, you know, a lot of

(14:24):
times, too, it's also trying. It's being able tointerpret your own imagination of saying, okay,
what shape would work for this and work for thatand then, just building it. But it's all very
automatic.
But you've explained for me why, when I've watcheda few of your Cartoon Academy shows, your episodes
that you explain in the drawing of things. This islike A. You say, this is like a B. This is like a

(14:46):
C. This is like an A. You actually say it thatway. And I thought. I thought that was something
that you created just for the show. But in fact,it's what you've done your whole life.
It's. It's. It's my internal process. And Irealize it. It works so well because it makes
drawing less intimidating. You know, there arelots of terms and drawings for all these specific
shapes. Everything else, it's like, that lookslike a letter C. well, let's just call it that.

(15:09):
You know, that looks like that's a circle. That'seasy. But rather than, say, an oval, it's a letter
O shape. And what it does is it really, you know,Kids and adults, because I get a lot of adult
audience too. They, generally speaking, can learnor have already learned to read and write and have
forgotten how difficult it was then. Now it's aseasy as abc. And so you can tap into that idea of

(15:30):
as easy as ABC and say, okay, it's the sameconcept. We're just going to position these
letters a little bit differently. We're going tostretch them and flatten them and twist them and
turn them until we get the shape we're lookingfor. It's much more accessible when you break it
down that way.
Well, yeah, obviously it's really accessible whenyou break it down that way. Because the other part
of that, that's comparable to writing in a sense.

(15:53):
When you think of I want to write an entire bookor a feature length screenplay, if you think
you've got to write the whole thing as one, it'sdaunting. But if you can think about breaking it
up into little scenes or little bits, then it's alot easier to conceive. What you're talking about
is instead of looking at an image and thinking, Ihave to draw that whole thing. No, you've broken

(16:15):
it into little component parts that are very easyto understand.
Yeah, I mean, every drawing tells a story. There'sa beginning, a middle and an end. And it's at the
end, where the full character is revealed in allits emotion, its personality, its characteristics
and as well as its physical appearance. Butthere's a process to it, step by step.

(16:36):
Do you think of yourself as a storyteller?
Oh, yes, I actually, you know, I probably firstand foremost a storyteller. I'm a visual
storyteller. All cartoonists are. But I'm also aliteral storyteller. I do on stage draw stories as
I tell them. and I do write stories as well. But,but yeah, I think cartooning is in fact visual
storytelling.

(16:56):
How do you bring emotion into a cartoon drawing?
How does that work?
I've really simplified it. It's this wonderfulsecret power that everybody has, but the
cartoonists are really adept at tapping into it iscalled empathy. and empathy is really the ability
to read someone else's emotions. And our empathyoften relies on visual, cues, primarily in the

(17:26):
face, the eyebrows, the eyes and the mouth. Now,there are other things that can be involved in
emotions. You know, your nostrils can flare, butif you think about it, those eyebrows, when they
pull in tightly and close, you know, you get ananger, but you can change that up. It's really,
you know, if you have the eyebrows raised, thatappears. Surprise. But the mouth has to be open,

(17:49):
too. Okay? So each of them, they work together toconvey a certain emotion, convey how a person
feels. The eyes, eyebrows, and mouth are the mainways, but it's also, you know, physical
mannerisms. The way a character is standing, theway their hands. It's just like how we observe

(18:09):
people. but we're doing it through, you know, theline work on the page.
But you've got to, as you say, you've got to havesome empathy. I think not everyone that I've met
in my life I would call an empathetic person. andthere are people that don't have that empathy. And
I think that they would probably have a hard timedoing what you're talking about.

(18:30):
They would have a hard time doing it. but theyactually don't have as hard a time reading it as
one might think. Because I'm simplifying it.
There's no. There's not a lot of nuance. you know,the expressions are bold. But sometimes, you know,
I mentioned that drawing of Larry David, you know,that is a bit nuanced, but it relies on the viewer

(18:57):
knowing who this character is and picking up on avery specific attitude or emotion. And when they
see that eyebrow raised and the corner of themouth curled, they go, oh. Oh. That's a very
distinct. Eh. That's the. That if there was asound that went with it, the sound would be, eh.
You're able to imitate Larry David on top ofdrawing him.

(19:19):
You know, it's funny. I think a lot of cartoonistsalso do impressions as well.
Probably. right.
We're trying to convey so much, in these drawings,and so we come up with ways to do it just, you
know, through those.
Do you find yourself physically doing things sothat you can get a feeling of what it should look
like on the page?

(19:39):
I don't as much. I used to use a lot of referencematerial. I would look up a photo of someone
playing tennis, and I still have to sometimes dothat kind of stuff. What I do find myself doing a
lot, though, my emotion will take on whateveremotion I'm drawing. So, my kids would come in the
room and go, what are you mad about? I'm like,what? I'm not mad. And then I'd look at the

(20:02):
character like, oh, okay, I'm drawing a dragon. Sothe dragon's mad, but I'm not. But, you take on
the emotion of your characters and your characterstake on Your personal emotion as well.
So you're feeling what you're drawing and drawingwhat you're feeling.
Yes, yeah, yeah, you definitely are. And it'swonderfully beneficial. You know, I will tell
people, you know, if you're feeling sad, there aretwo things you can do. One, you can draw that out

(20:29):
so that you can sort of, why am I feeling sad? Andyou draw it out and you sort of think about that.
You begin to think about the emotion a bit more.
But you can also go, I'm feeling sad. I'm going todraw a character who's happy. And you cannot help
but smile. If you draw a smile, it'll lift yourmood. and if you look at a drawing of a smile,

(20:53):
it'll lift your mood. And it's really simplebecause, you know, that magical sort of Morris
code is the same thing, only it's a drawing. Ifyou do two dots, dot, dot, and underneath it a
dash, and then above those dots, two dashesseparated, that's a face. And however you
manipulate those lines and dots, you change theemotion drastically. But it's really that simple.

(21:17):
Dots and dashes is all it is. And, and you canstill read that emotion.
That's quite brilliant that you've, brought it allthe way down to the essence of what it is.
Yeah, it's, you know, that's what cartoons, youknow, we're distilling things down and down and
down. And it can get, you know, there's a broad.
Cartoonist styles are just so broad. Of course,you know, you have someone like Frank Frazetta who

(21:39):
did beautiful, you know, renderings that are justso detailed, or Thomas Nast with all the cross
hatching. But then you have Charles Schulz on theother side. Very, very simplistic line art. But
the emotion he can convey with just a couple dotsand lines. It's unbelievable.
It is unbelievable. And you're correct. I mean,the variation on the abilities of various cartoons

(22:05):
and cartoonists is as infinite as there are starsin the heaven. and yet every one of them is able,
if they're any good, to convey something to us.
Yeah, it's something within us all that we want tosee faces everywhere. When we look at an

(22:27):
electrical outlet, we see the two eyes and thenose. When they designed the car, they gave it two
headlights and a bumper for a reason so it couldsmile at you. New technology. We try and think,
well, how can we give it a face? How can wehumanize it? It's a very comforting experience for
us. It tells us you know, even when we are alonein this world, we're really not alone. There's

(22:49):
someone behind all these creations. And in eachcreation, each thing, there's an element of
humanity. You know, even, you know, you look at atree, you'll still try and look for. Are those
arms? Are those, you know, where are the eyes? Isthat. Are the leaves? It's hair. We want to
humanize everything, and I think that's a verycomforting thing for us.

(23:11):
Well, if you look at most, if not all, animationthat's been successful in some way, way, no matter
what's in that animation, everything has beenanthropomorphized in some way to make it human.
Like.
Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's. That's one of the bigkeys in cartooning is that we do anthropomorphized
things. That's. That's, you know, our role is tobring things to life.

(23:32):
So I think the hardest form of storytelling of allis the short story. And the shorter, the harder.
And what you're doing with a single panel or asingle drawing or a single maze, and we're going
to talk about mazes here in a moment. just onesingle panel, I think that's the most difficult to
master. Why is that? What is so hard about that?

(23:54):
Why is it difficult to do?
Well, one of the reasons it's difficult to do wellis you're drawing, you know, this single panel,
and you have to at least be thinking of youraudience that is going to read this six months
from now or whatever, or if it's a book, a year,two years from now. And how are you leading their

(24:16):
eye to tell the narrative? Because you only haveone panel to do it.
Right?
So the, example, I give of I do a drawing where Idraw a porcupine and then I have a cactus. That's
it. Okay. But that tells an entire story becausethe porcupine, we know he has quills, so we know

(24:38):
he doesn't have a lot of friends, so we know he'sa lonely porcupine. Okay, we know this. All right.
All right. He's standing on what looks like sand.
So he's left his home in the woods and he's wentwandering out somewhere. Where has he wandered?
Well, there's a prop. There's a cactus there. Sowe know he's wandered out into the desert. Well,
when does this take place? Well, the sun is in thesky, so we know it's daytime, so we know when it

(25:02):
is, we know where it is. But what's he lookingfor? Well, he's looking for a friend, obviously.
How are we going to give him a friend? Do we addanother character? No, all we need to add is a
symbol. If I had a heart between the cactus andthe porcupine, then the porcupine and the cactus
have found a common bond. They're both prickly,they fall in love and they live happily ever after

(25:22):
in a cartoon. That's one drawing. Now, I told allthat and it took a little bit of time for me to
tell it all and lay out each of the things. But inthe second that someone views that drawing, they
look at the porcupine drawn on the left hand side,especially Western, art. So drawn to that left
hand side, then they see the heart, then they seethe cactus and all those connections. That entire

(25:47):
story, they came up with it. Now, I led them alittle bit, but it's really a shared experience.
They relate to the idea of, oh, a lonelycharacter, another lonely character. They find
love. It's something we all can identify with,understand? And I use symbolism and I use these
visual cues to inform the audience and then letthem. Really, they're the ones telling the story,

(26:09):
not me.
Me being the cynical, writer that I am, I wouldsee that drawing and my brain would then go to,
oh, that poor porcupine who's fallen in love witha pineapple in the middle of some desert. That
love's not going to last very long.

(26:29):
Yes, well, that's the thing is, when you thinkabout comic strips, in particular, you have four
panels. That is not a lot of room to tell a story.
The real story takes place in the white space inbetween. It's called the gutter. That's where the
story pauses and the audience's imagination fillsin everything else. So when I'm performing on

(26:50):
stage, at a school, if you ask the kidsafterwards, you know, a single story might be
seven minutes, it might only be six drawings.
Okay, maybe, maybe, maybe a little more, maybe alittle less. But if you ask the kids, how many
drawings did he draw in that story? You have kids,say, 25, 30. Because their brains are filling in
all the, all those other drawings and the actionthat's happening, how interesting.

Stev (27:13):
They're filling it all in.
You have to trust your audience. You know, thetoughest decision an artist makes is not what to
draw. That's easy. I can, you know, if I want todraw a scene, I can draw the whole thing. I could
draw the cactus and the porcupine falling in loveand what happens Afterwards. And that all that I
could draw that. But the real magic to it, thereal power to it is deciding what not to draw.

(27:39):
What do you leave for the audience to imagine? Andthat's the toughest decision an artist makes,
because every artist has had the point wherethey've gone. That is one line too many.
Charles Schulz was really good at the four panelcartoon, obviously.

Joe Wos (27:53):
Yes.
But he also did single panel cartoons sometimes.
Yeah, he could do single panel and he could do theSundays, which could be, you know, 12 panels.
Yeah, he was just, he was a masterful storyteller.
So I've also had on this podcast, Jeff Keane,who's Bill Keene signed Jeff has taken over the
Family Circus. And that's all. That's years andyears and years of single panels. And so that's

(28:16):
got to be something difficult to master. Thatsingle panel. Constant, constant, constant churn.
So when I first decided that I was going to reallypursue syndication, to appear in the funny pages,
I thought about, okay, a comic strip, a singlepanel, and I want to do something different. I

(28:37):
thought, boy, you know what? I don't know if I canhandle that pressure of having to be funny every
day for the rest of my life. I don't know if I canhandle the rejection. I don't know that I can
handle the pressure. It seemed so daunting. So Idecided I would do cartoon illustrated mazes
because it was unique, it was something I was goodat and that no one else did. But I don't have a

(29:02):
cast of characters I can fall back on.
No, no, that's right. Correct.
Every day something different, and it's over 10years now. So that's 3,650 different mazes.
Okay, so let's talk about mazes then, which it'sfascinating to me for the three people on the
earth that don't know what a maze is, tell us whata maze is.

(29:25):
So, a maze. A maze is a puzzle which has a startand a finish and then multiple paths leading as
the solution. And there are twists and turns anddead ends and, sometimes optical illusions and
just convolutions, I call them things that justmake it convoluted and misdirect you to try and

(29:47):
make it more challenging. Mine have illustrationsthat you actually go through. And what makes them
so difficult is the human eye, especially foradults. If I draw a circle, but there's a tiny gap
in that circle, you'll still say it's a circle.
You won't say it's A circle with a gap.
But a kid. A kid will see the gap.

(30:08):
A kid will see the gap. As we get older, we havethis habit of wanting to see things as completed.
So a lot of times people are going through andthere'll be a very obvious gap in a, a squirrel's
tail that you have to go through. And they'll sitthere and they'll pass it. Like, how do you go
through this? How do you go through this?
Especially if it's in color? Because we'll seecolor. Adjacent colors we'll see as a line. So

(30:30):
even if it's not a black line, if we see a yellowright up against a light blue, we'll perceive that
as a line.

Steve Cuden (30:40):
Hm.
And so it makes it even more challenging to go,oh, no, wait a minute, I can go right through
that. So. So you have to be able to see in acertain way.
All right, so what are the major principles thatyou've Learned toward creating 3,000 plus mazes?
How do you begin and how do you proceed?
It sounds so obvious. You start at the start andyou finish at the end. That's too easy. I do not

(31:03):
have any plotted path. I do not do a rough sketch.
I just sit down and I draw it.
But you don't know where you're going to start?
I don't. I mean, I will put on the page like alittle circle with a letter S in it. And that's
going to be. My sort is. But I might decide, youknow, no way I want it over here. I don't know

(31:23):
what decides that. I, Usually I think one of thefactors is I'm very careful not to repeat myself,
because once you get locked into patterns and themazes become very easy. So I try and make sure I
mix things up, or where I'm placing the start, thefinish, and so forth. But I start drawing the
start, and then I'll start with a little bit ofthe path, usually breaking that off into another

(31:46):
path. And then what I have is called my. My truepath, which is the path that I keep breaking off
more paths as I'm going, right? And then thosepaths split off and, you know, it's this constant
tree branching out. But then I have anillustration integrated, and, you know, you might
be going through. I'll use the squirrel againthrough its tail and then up through its arm and

(32:07):
then out. But then you're going through more path.
Then you come back and you go through its ear andthen out the other ear and working your way to the
Finish. But that's really it. It is. It's. It'sstart to finish. And as I'm thinking, I'm like,
okay, how difficult do I want this maze to be? Youknow, how complicated? What do I want the line
patterns to look like? What do I want the linetexture to look like? So there's a lot of just

(32:30):
automatic thought process that is happening,internally, but I really just sit down and start
drawing.
So how much of it is actual architecture and howmuch of it is pure whimsy?
There have been. I've had people who aremathematicians and scientists and so forth have
said, oh, my God, you must have such amathematical mind. And I go, no, absolutely not. I

(32:56):
am the exact opposite. I have no aptitude for mathor engineering or anything else. It just happens.
It's the, You know, there's a reason they callthem magic markers, because there's just a magic
in them. I mean, there. And I. And I try not tooveranalyze it too m much. I just let that process

(33:22):
happen.
Do you feel like the ideas then? I'm going to becareful how I say this come through you. You're
not actually creating them. It's being fed throughyou from somewhere else.
You know, I've struggled with that question. Itthen brings an even bigger question, which you
allude to, in a sense, I think that if it's comingfrom somewhere, where's it coming from?

(33:46):
Well, I've spoken to hundreds of creative peopleon this show, and I've also done a lot of studying
of creativity and the creative process. And I'malso a creative person myself. And a huge number
of very famous, successful creative people willnot take credit for what they're doing. They will
say, no, I'm just a conduit. It's coming throughme.

(34:09):
I absolutely take credit for every last bit of it.
Good for you.
50 years of doing this. I'm taking credit now. Andthat's important to me, though, because I
actually, when you watch the show, I end everydrawing by saying the same thing. Sign your name.
Take pride in your work. I get so frustrated byteachers who make kids sign the back of their

(34:34):
drawing so that it's hidden, you know, when itgoes up on a wall or refrigerator. That's
ridiculous. This kid poured a lot of effort intothis. They should be proud of this. Sign your
name. So I'm not inclined to say that I'm aconduit necessary. I will say that I am trying to
tap into a sort of universal consciousness that weall have the shared experiences. because the fact

(34:59):
of a cartoon is a cartoon cat does not look like areal cat. And yet it universally is recognizable
as a cat. Snoopy is probably one of the mostrecognized works of art in the world. It's more
recognized in more parts of the world than theMona Lisa and is universally recognized as a dog.

(35:22):
Snoopy is not a dog. He is a cartoon of a dog.
Bugs Bunny looks nothing, like a rat. Mickey Mouselooks very little like a mouse, but is universally
a mouse because there are certain aspects of theidea, mouse, or the idea rabbit or the idea cat,
this philosophical idea of what is the embodimentof the idea version of that entity, that a rabbit

(35:51):
has long ears. Are there short eared rabbits? Ofcourse there are. Sure there are. But a rabbit has
long ears, a rabbit has whiskers, a rabbit hasbuck teeth. Now what happens if I draw a, a,
rabbit with short ears and whiskers? Well, it'snot a rabbit, it's a cat. It's the same base, it's

(36:12):
the same head shape, it's the same eyes or soforth. But by, you know, stretching out the ears,
it then becomes a rabbit. You know, if I round offthe ears and change the body and bring those buck
teeth bath, that, that cat now becomes, you know,a squirrel or a chipmunk.
And your squirrel that has a bushy tail is reallya rodent of some kind with a bushy tail.

(36:33):
Yeah. But what you're trying to do is tap intothat. What are the universal things we accept as
the perfect embodiment of that being or object?
You know, what makes a teapot a teapot? It is notsimply a receptacle that holds tea, because, then
a jar would be a teapot. no, there are elements toa teapot that make it a teapot. There's the

(36:59):
handle, there's the spout, there's the lid. Allthose things I need for it to look like and be
accepted as a teapot. So there's a visualshorthand we use as cartoonists. We use a lot of
symbolism and stuff, but I have to make sure it'suniversally accepted. And what's interesting about
that to me is cartoons have kept alive ideas thathave long since passed. If you watch a cartoon

(37:29):
doctor, one of the symbols we'll use to show it'sa doctor is a little silver plate on top of their
head. Now, if you ask somebody under the age ofprobably 40, why do they wear that? They will say,
because they're a Doctor, I said, well, doctorsdon't wear those anymore, do they? No. Why not? It

(37:51):
was to reflect light. Well, they don't need thatanymore. They have flashlights and all these other
lights, and so I don't need that. A telephone. Youhave an image of a telephone that probably matches
my image of a.

S (38:01):
Telephone with a rotary dial.
It does not match a five year old's image of atelephone.

Steve Cuden (38:05):
Of course not.
but that is more universal that because of thecartoons. We, we're still using that telephone in
our cartoons. And I think part of it is the fearis that little rectangle that people are holding
up their ears, up to their ears. 10 years fromnow, 20 years from now, who knows? That may not be
readable as a telephone at all. What is that goingto be 20 years from now?

(38:27):
A telephone may just be something that sits inyour ear or it may be implanted into your head. It
could be, totally different. Exactly.
But we need those universal images to communicate.
It's. You know, the wonderful thing about art isdrawing in particular, is that it's probably. No,
I'll actually say it is. It is the most lastingand universal form of communication. I can look at

(38:50):
a cave painting of a horse from 20,000 years ago,and I know that is a horse.
Sure.
And then I see behind it people with spears. I go,this is a story that they're telling me about a
hunting trip they went on. 20,000 years havepassed. There's no words, there's no video,
there's nothing else. But I know that story.

(39:12):
And then you as a cartoonist, you in particular,Joe Woese, you then take that image, that symbol,
and exaggerate it in some way that gives it awhimsical life.
Yeah, I exaggerate. Like all cartoons, Iexaggerate the key elements first and make it what
it is. But then I'll exaggerate other elements, tofit my particular style.

(39:37):
What do you draw with? With a pencil, a pen. Doyou work on a computer? What's your medium?
Primarily now, I work on a Wacom Cintiq tablet. itis this massive, beautiful machine from Wacom who
makes the finest digital drawing tablets in theworld. And I absolutely love it. I use that
primarily for most of my work that's going to befor productions. So if it's for syndication or

(40:00):
for, you know, books, or whatever. For my show, Idraw on paper and I use a permanent marker,
because it shows up nice and bold and it's anaccessible tool kids have and adults have access
to paper. They don't have access to a, you know,$5,000 digital tablet or whatever. So keeping

(40:21):
accessible, if I'm at a convention and I'mdrawing, I'll draw on paper and pen. I still draw
on paper and pen. I very rarely use pencil.
So you don't sketch it in pencil and then overdoit with ink, of some kind?
No. And that happened because I'm left handed.
when I was a kid, I would draw on pencil and Iwould smudge so bad that I very early on switched

(40:44):
to permanent ink. And as a result, I don't make alot of mistakes. And when I do, I can set them
aside and I can see where I made the mistake andstart over. Now, if I'm working digitally, I'll
sometimes do an underlying drawing, that's alittle more loose and rough and then go over that.
The problem is I always like that drawing more andI can never recapture it if I'm going over it. So

(41:09):
a lot of times I'll just go back to that originaldrawing.
So we've talked about color. I assume you alsocolor your own work.
I do. And I hated coloring. Hated coloring myentire life.
Why?
I'm not entirely sure. I think there's a couplereasons. One, I'm not very good at coloring in
traditional tools. I'm not very good at painting.

(41:31):
I'm not very good at just coloring in the lines,and I'm just not very good at it using traditional
tools. That's the first reason. Second reason is Ireally did like, for a lot of years, just the way
my work looked in black and white. And I think thethird reason is although I'm prolific, I'm
intrinsically lazy. And I've done the drawingalready. Maybe I had to do it twice because I had

(41:59):
to, do a rough. Now I get to sit there and stareat it for another 40 minutes while I color it. I
can draw something in 30 seconds and be done. Andit's great. When I gotta color it, that's another
15 to 20 minutes of just time with that drawing.
You're forever gonna be known to me now as theprolific lazy artist.

(42:21):
I am a very prolific lazy artist. I do a lot ofwork. I work very, very fast. But, you know, I
enjoy drawing. I enjoy looking at, I enjoy the waymy work looks in color a lot. And there have been
various breakthroughs that I've had in thatprocess over the past couple decades that have

(42:42):
made it better for me. But I don't enjoy theprocess as much as I do the process of drawing.
But in the computer, it's a lot easier.
Yes, in a computer, it's a lot easier because I'llwork in layers, so I have a separate layer for my
shadows. And that has made my work. My work isvery flat, intentionally so. But when I add those

(43:05):
shadows, it just adds just a little bit ofinteresting depth to it. Even though it's a very
flat work and the characters are drawn, it's thisway. They're flat. It adds some interesting depth
to it, and I really like the way that looks. Coloris probably the one thing I struggle with the most
because especially if I'm drawing a person, I wantto get a skin tone just right. And it's just so

(43:27):
delicate and hard to do. And getting the color inthe cheeks just right and it's. I've gotten better
at it. I just don't enjoy it as much as I probablym as much as I'm sure a lot of people do.
Well, I have many friends in the comic booksworld, and traditionally, there have been various
disciplines within that form. And so you'd havesomeone who would be the quote, unquote anchor.

(43:52):
You'd have someone who was the colorist, and theywould. They would be specialists in that. But
you're doing the whole thing yourself.
Yeah, I'm doing the whole thing, yeah. Because Iletter to stuff, I ink it, I pencil it, you know
pencil it, I do a sketch and then, you know, andthen I do the color. So I am doing the whole
process. And people have said to me, like, whydon't you get someone, to color? Well, one, I

(44:14):
don't make enough in syndication to. To hire acolorist. And two, especially with the mazes, that
color, again, is so important that if you misaligntwo colors, it's going to register as a line and
it's going to throw the whole maze off. So I havethe eye for it, so I kind of have to do it.

(44:35):
So you never blend, two colors together to make ablend, it's got to have a definition to it.
It's got to have a definition to it. I do not dogradients. I don't do gradients. you know, again,
although that's very easy in Photoshop, I justdon't do them because I don't like the way my work
looks like that. I like just sort of flat colorswith a layer of some highlights and shadows, and

(45:01):
that's really it.
All right, so you've already said that you sitdown, you draw a circle with an S in it, and you
start to figure things out. So you don't, goaround in life and say, oh, there's an idea for a
maze. And, like that. It's just happening for youevery day as you're making new ones.
The drawing part is just sort of just happens.
So where do you get your ideas? From everywhere.

(45:22):
I learned very quickly because, again, coming backto the fact that I didn't have a cast of
characters and I was at the draw somethingdifferent every day that I was gonna need to find
constant inspiration. Now, there are a coupleplaces. One, I will do mazes based on the National
Day. So if it's National Dance Like a Chicken Day,I can draw a dancing chicken in that maze. Again,

(45:42):
I gotta be careful not to repeat. So that'sfinite, but I'll use that a lot. If it's, the
hundredth anniversary of the sinking of theLusitania, maybe I'll work that into a maze. there
are things like that. I'll look around the room,and I'll go, oh, especially my apartment, because
my apartment is just covered floor to ceiling. Andjust interesting, bizarre artifacts like, you

(46:07):
know, African mask and a, stuffed bobcat and toys.
And it's just hundreds of things on the wall. SoI'll find inspiration there. I may just be walking
through here in Oakland, just outside ofPittsburgh, and I'll wander over to the museum. I
might find some ideas. There might be something Ifind along the sidewalk. I also see images

(46:29):
everywhere. So if I look at a grain of wood, I seethe images sort of popping out of that wood. If I
look at the walls and paint, patterns, I'll pickup stuff out of the pattern. So the inspiration is
all around me. The music I listen to, the things Isee, smells, taste. All of our senses serve to
inspire us. and so that's. I just let it happen.

(46:52):
And how do you keep track? If you're out in theworld and you're walking around Oakland and you
see something, do you have a notepad with you? Doyou talk into your phone? Is it just your memory,
or how do you remember things?
It used to be just my memory. But the problem withthat is, when I get an idea, if I can't sit down
and draw that idea right now, I'm going to get sofrustrated. So I now have a pattern where I go,

(47:19):
okay, I will give myself a voice memo on my phone.
And then when I'm at the desk, I'LL just play allthose memos and go. Okay, yeah, that's a good
idea. No, what was I thinking?
So you're recording your ideas vocally, audiowise, into a phone.

Joe Wos (47:35):
Yes.
And that preserves it for you. You're not walkingaround with a notepad and drawing?
No. Because of that frustration, if I startdrawing it, I want to get to the finished product.
I want to sit down and draw it. I don't want tohave, like a rough sketch that I'm going to come
back to later. I want to do it.
I mean, that's, very interesting. I think that'ssomething that the listeners should pay attention

(47:58):
to. There are multiple ways to record your.
Thoughts that may just be a result of bipolardisorder or something, or ADHD or who knows? But
it is definitely, that need to create. Once I'vesat down to create and not pull myself away from
it. I, I am a, very gentile. Jovial, or excuse me,gentile. I am that too, although you wouldn't

(48:23):
necessarily know, but a very gentle and jovial,kind and generous person. If you interrupt me when
I'm drawing, I'm just gonna be. It's like thosepeople who don't have their morning coffee. I'm
just gonna be a little bit more on edge.
You're gonna chew their arm off. Yeah.
My drawing time is as sacred to me as Saturdaymornings were when I was a kid.

(48:44):
Is there a typical length of time it takes youonce you start?
I draw very, very. I'm very fast as a result of myonly drawing and marker my whole life and, and
learning how to cope with mistakes and learningwhat goes on a page, stays on a page. That's it,
I'm done. I don't do a lot of racing stuff. I canwork very fast. So I can draw a daily maze

(49:05):
anywhere from five to 15 minutes.

Steve Cuden (49:09):
Wow.

Joe Wos (49:09):
Start to finish.

Steve Cuden (49:10):
Wow, that's fast.
Sunday start to finish takes me about an hour,sometimes as much as two hours. I'm hoping right
now my syndicate is not listening to this becausethey're going to go then. Why do you turn in
everything so late, Joe? because the reason I doturn everything is late is while I love the draw,

(49:33):
I do have to sort of create an environment and astate of mind and a mood to sit down and go, this
is my drawing day. I can crank out a whole month'sworth of work in about a week. so long as I've
carved out that time to draw. I have entire booksI've done, you know, 50 page books that were done

(49:53):
in under a month. You know, my first book, I thinkI did the whole book from start to finish in one
week.
But it's not the drawing part of it. It's thegathering of what you're doing part of it.
It's getting in the mindset, it's blocking out theworld, getting rid of all the distractions. It's
turning off the darn email, shutting down Facebookand saying, no, this is your time to draw. This is

(50:19):
it. This is. When you do this, this is, animportant and as I said, sacred time. This is your
time to draw. You're creating and you know, youneed to be in a certain state of mind, I think, to
create. Now, you know this, I know this. You stillgot deadlines. Sometimes you have to find ways to

(50:41):
jumpstart that creativity too.
Well, there's nothing, there's nothing like thathard, fast deadline to really trigger moving
forward. But it's not. I don't want to use theword. You're not procrastinating so much as I
think you're gathering the energy to do it.
Drawing is probably. I mean, I can make. I'll makeup a statistic, 90% mental. A, lot of it is the

(51:05):
thought process that's happening in the backgroundthe whole time. Same with storytelling. There's a
seed of a story, and the entire story is there inyour head. But it doesn't all come out on a paper
right away. You might come to it a year later andgo, okay, oh, wait, I'm ready to write this story
now. I'm ready to tell this tale. All the pieceshave fallen in place. Drawing is the same way.

(51:26):
It's, it's. There's little observations I'm makingall day long. there's. And then, and then there is
really just. I set up my room a certain way whenI'm drawing.
You have a routine that you must go through.
I have a routine. This is the first time I'm sortof realizing the routine, but I do. There's very
much a routine of, of specific kinds of music Ilike to play in the background of having my water

(51:52):
nearby. knowing if I start now, I won't want tobreak for lunch. So I have to eat breakfast first.
Or if I start at this time, I know that I'm goingto have to break for dinner, and I don't want to
do that. So I better. It really involves a lot ofplanning of just to find the time to sit down and
draw the actual work time.
I would be remiss if we don't spend a couple ofminutes talking about your six time Emmy winning

(52:16):
show, Cartoon Academy. Tell those who've maybenever seen it or don't know what it is, what
Cartoon Academy is and where they can see it.
Obviously on pbs, but is it everywhere and how didit start and what do you do?
So Cartoon Academy is a show that teaches peoplehow to draw cartoons, using very simple, very

(52:36):
accessible methods and tools. You know, we draw ondifferent themes. We might be doing one episode
might be just how to draw dogs. Another episodemight be under the sea or outer space. and it
really is, you know, while it's framed loosely aswhat I guess many would consider a children's
show, it is really for all ages. It's meant to beaccessible to all. I have senior citizens who have

(52:59):
written to me and said, you know, oh, I hurt myfoot for a whole week and I couldn't walk around.
And I tuned into your show and now I'm acartoonist, and I love stories like that. It's
really meant to be for everybody. So it's a showthat teaches how to draw. My favorite description
of it and, I would never claim to be anywhere nearthe level of either of these two people, but I

(53:24):
like the concept of it's Bob Ross meets Mr.
Rogers.
Oh, that's lovely.
It is a very gentle pacing. It allows for us tojust take some time together and go, let's do
this. Okay, now the next step is we add this. Oh,that looks good. And I throw in a lot of dad jokes
and silliness.

(53:44):
Yes, you do.

Joe Wos (53:46):
It's meant to be fun.
It's very easy to watch, it's very enjoyable andyou learn. And, that's a very rare thing to have
all that combination.
It's letting people know you can do this. Youreally can draw. Drawing is a skill. Skills can be

(54:08):
learned. Any skill can be learned. Whether it's,you know, how to use a tool or playing the piano.
Right. That's a skill you can learn that I can'tteach how to create. That is where talent comes
in. But I can give you the tools and the exercisesthat you can use to create. You'll, your own style

(54:33):
needs to develop and your own imagination needs tosort of factor into that. So I can give you those
skills to build upon that. And the idea is, youknow, you watch all these episodes, by the time
you've watched a full season, you're creating yourown characters.
Absolutely. Because again, going back to what weTalked about in the beginning of the show. You're

(54:53):
making it so easy to understand how to make thosedrawings that people can figure it out after a
little while.
Yes. Yeah. I'm a magician. Giving away all thesecrets is what I'm doing.
Yeah, but you're not giving away all the secrets.
Some of the secrets are what am I gonna draw? Youknow?
Yeah, some of those. But I try and, you know, giveaway the process of, you know, here's, and I

(55:14):
emphasize, here's a way to draw. This is not theway to draw.
Of course, of course. There's a million ways todraw. There's a million ways to do any kind of
art. But yes, you're showing people your way,which is very valuable because you're not only
successful at it, but you're fast at it and youknow what you're doing. So I think that that's
very useful. How long does it take to prep anepisode? How long does it take to produce one?

(55:34):
So, we're actually, we're going through our newseason right now. we just moved. So, our first
couple seasons, we would go in and film over aweek. That would give us, 12, five to eight minute
mini episodes, 28 minutes for public television.

Steve (55:50):
Are they scripted first?
No, there is no script. There is absolutely noscript. You can't script it. You know, Bob Ross
would do, three paintings. He would do one to sortof just figure out what he was going to teach.
They would film one that would be, that's going tobe the episode. And then maybe they'd film one

(56:11):
more as backup. But there's so many variations in.
Even if you're drawing the same thing over andover, slight variations, it's going to change. So
you can't just cut to, you know, a differentpainting or a different drawing, you know, because
people will pick up on it. So the continuitybecomes an issue. I don't bother with a script
work on it in my head of, you know, having a roughidea of what I'm going to say or if there's an

(56:32):
important term that I want to make to. Sure I'mgetting across. Like, if we're talking about
symmetry, I'll think about what I'm going to sayfor that. But I don't write anything down on
paper. I've never done that. Even in mystorytelling, I don't. None, of my stories have
been written down. They're all up here in my headand just been telling them for so long that I know
them. So I Know how to draw. I know how to teachpeople to draw. So I don't really need a script.

(56:55):
and then we, we gather in the studio now. It'sjust me and my daughter is now my director. she
just, she just got back from film school. Andwe'll film a full segment and then we'll, we'll
say, you know, do we think it needs anything? Youknow, and we'll maybe record like jokes and we'll
open up to the room like, who's got a good dogjoke? And someone will say it. Or I'll send out an

(57:18):
email to friends like, hey, who's got, who's got agood chicken joke? You know, we come up with the
full season worth of what we're going to draw andput that on a big board, and then break that down
into shoot day. So we're really filming. We tryand film four, six to eight minute episodes in a
day. two additional things. Additional thingsmight be what we call either a quick draw, which

(57:42):
is just going over a tool or a term or a littletrick to drawing, or we might be filming a
promotional thing or it might be doing a bookreview or something like that. so we usually film
like a total of five segments in a day.
That's really amazing actually, if you think aboutit. And how long does it take to put them together
so they're ready to go out?

(58:03):
That's, that's the long process is, you know,we're, we're getting better at that or getting
faster. Not necessarily better, but definitelyfaster at it. My daughter, like I said, has taken
on a lot of those duties now. So we work closelytogether. She just sent me, the rough cut of a new
episode that I looked at. It usually takes abouttwo to three days to edit together an episode. you

(58:26):
know, that's seven minute episode usually takesabout seven hours.
So once you have it, then you're done for theseason. You do that in a relatively quick order
because it's all, sort of.
All so the way we were doing it. But the problemwith that was so much a problem. It would take us
two years to have three years to have enough for afull television season. Because while the seven

(58:53):
minute episodes are great to post online and onPBS streaming and the PBS app and PBS website and
all things, those are great for that televisionshows. You got to have a 28 minute episode. So we
have to cut together then three of the seven orthree or four of the seven episodes to make one 28
minute episode.
So you actually have some. It takes a while toassemble an entire season.

(59:16):
It takes a while to season. So but now what we'redoing is we're now in studio at least once a month
instead of once a year. So now we'll have, by theend of a year we have a full 13 episode season.
Cool.

Steve Cude (59:32):
That's really great.
and that 13 episode season is actually 52 smallerepisodes.

Steve Cuden (59:40):
Sure.
That go to streaming and YouTube and so forth. Sothat every weekend, every Saturday, we're gonna
post a new episode and that'll be starting nextmonth.
And each one of those little segments isstandalone. They don't. One doesn't lead to the
other.
They'll be edited together in such a way that theywill. So for example, the episodes we're shooting
right now, we're drawing a chihuahua and thenwe're drawing a bulldog, and then, a little

(01:00:05):
Scottie Dog and Wiener Dog. And those are eachstandalone episodes, but it's all dogs. They'll be
all packaged together as one 28 minute episode aswell, for airing on PBS.
Ah, that's a very clever way to do it. Well,that's. I love hearing how production works.
Especially you have a number of people. It's notjust you. It's different than when you're doing

(01:00:26):
your mazes. There are other people involved.
And it's interesting because, you know, as I'msure you know, there's been a lot of cuts to pbs.
but it's been at a time, you know, that thestations need content that is not expensive. our
show is free to any PBS affiliate, you know, thestation. You know, two things happened. One, there

(01:00:49):
was space freed up that I could actually have afull time studio here now, and my office is here.
But we lost a lot of good people who were oureditors and filming. And so it really has become a
project that is a, know, father and daughterproject, which is perfect because that's how the
show came about. My daughter, when she was, Ithink 14 years old, came to me, said, I want to

(01:01:14):
become a filmmaker, I want to become a director.
And I said, that's great, you should do that. Shegoes, well, I want to get an internship, but
nobody's going to hire a 14 year old with noexperience to work on a TV set. And I said, we'll
just get a TV show. And she said, that's not howit works. I go, I know that's not how it works,
but Pittsburgh's different.

(01:01:36):
She was right though. Joe, it's not. That's nothow it works.
But. So what happened was. This is over, Covid. Iemailed WQED in Pittsburgh and said, hey, I've
been doing these live streams online teachinglessons, and I got an idea for a TV show. Would
you guys be interested? I heard back immediately.

(01:01:57):
Same day. We were just about to email you.
Wow.
We got a grant called a learn at home grant,because the kids are home from school, and there's
no art classes, and we want to produce an artclass, and your name was the first one that came
up. And so it was just all timing and coincidence.

St (01:02:17):
That's called synchronicity.
I'll give you, my big piece of advice to people.
Practice being lucky. Now, that sounds like I'mjust dismissive. I'm not. I'm very sincere.
Practice being lucky, because you need to be readywhen that lucky moment happens. You need to be

(01:02:38):
ready to answer that door when the knock comes. Ifyou're not prepared for when luck happens, you're
going to miss your opportunities.
Well, famously, and it's always attributed toeither Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin, and
I never know which, but the famous quote is, theharder I work, the luckier I get. And that luck
favors the prepared mind. And there are variousluck quotes. that's what you're talking about. You

(01:03:02):
need to be prepared for it when the luck shows up,and you need to recognize it. Well, I've been
having just the most fun conversation for a,little more than an hour at this point with Joe
Woese, the cartoonist of the Cartoon Academy, andlots of great books and maze tunes. and we're
going to wind the show down at this point, and I'mjust wondering. Joe, you've told us a huge number

(01:03:25):
of really wonderful stories, but do you have a,story you can share with us throughout your
experiences that are either weird, quirky, offbeatstrange, or something else that's just plain
funny?
You know, we're both here in Pittsburgh,Pennsylvania, and we both have a wonderful
neighbor who was named Fred Rogers. If you're fromPittsburgh, you know, he's the whole country's

(01:03:48):
neighbor, but he's really our neighbor. so I haveactually a story about me meeting Fred Rogers when
I was 14 years old. My best friend's dad, ArtVogel, was the lead cameraman on Mr. Rogers
neighborhood. And when I was 14, I was a punk rockkid. I had spiked orange hair, piercings in the
ear, jean, jacket covered in safety pins, combatboots, like the whole punk rock dead milkman kid.

(01:04:15):
My friend Rob said, hey, we're having a familypicnic for, WQED and Family Communications at
Idlewild Park. Do you want to go to that? I said,oh, yeah, I'd love to. I love roller coasters. I
love theme parks. So we went and, Fred was there,and Rob said, do you want to meet Mr. Rogers? I
go, you kidding? Who wouldn't want to meet Mr.
Rogers? So I went up to them. Rob introduced me,said, this is my friend Joe. And Fred Rogers took

(01:04:38):
one look at me, knew nothing about me, and said,you're an artist, aren't you? And I said, yes, I'm
a cartoonist. Well, what do you like to draw? AndI said, well, I draw. Blah, blah, blah. And I went
on and on. He said, well, please keep drawing. Ithink it's wonderful that you're an artist. And
then maybe 15 years later, when I was probablyabout 29, maybe. Probably 29 or so, I was

(01:05:02):
performing at the Children's Museum of Pittsburgh.
They were honoring Eric Carle, and Fred was thereto give him an award. And I was performing in the
theater. Fred came down to watch my show. Hewatched it very respectfully from the back. You
know, he knew that he would distract if he came ina certain way. So he did. He sat there and he
watched the whole thing. And I was friends withDavid Newell, Mr. McFeely. And so David came back

(01:05:24):
afterward and said, Fred really loved your show.
He wanted to meet you. Can I bring him back? Isaid, yeah, please, of course. So I brought him
back, and Fred came to me and said, you know, Iloved your work. Your storytelling was very
beautiful, and the way you interact with thechildren is so nice and, wonderful. Just praise
just meant so much to me. And I said, you know,this isn't the first time we met. When I was 14, I

(01:05:49):
had spiked orange hair and an earring and jacketcovered safe pins and combat vest, punk rock kid.
And I met you, and you looked at me and said,you're an artist, aren't you? And Fred Rogers
looked at me and said, well, I was right, wasn'tI?

Steve Cuden (01:06:03):
That's wonderful.
And then, a week later, I got a lovely letter thatwas sent to the Children's Museum, from Fred
Rogers, saying how nice it was to meet me and howimportant my work is with kids.
Isn't that wonderful? He certainly had giganticimpact on a very large number of people.

Joe (01:06:18):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And by the way, David Newell's been on this show,too.

Joe Wos (01:06:22):
Oh, I love David.

Steve Cuden (01:06:23):
David is fantastic.
We used to go to lunch, at least once a month. I,haven't said. You seen him while? I need to get
back, actually, no. I saw him at a festival wewere at. We keep saying we need to get back to get
together for lunch sometime. Wonderful guy, greatstories, and just, an underappreciated legend and.
But as you say, a truly wonderful man. He. I don'tthink he could have worked all those years with

(01:06:44):
Fred Rogers if he weren't a wonderful man.
No, absolutely. Just. Just a good, good person.
So, last question for you today, Joe. you alreadytold us that great piece of advice about luck, but
I'm wondering if you have a, a single piece ofadvice that you do give to people who are starting
out in the business or maybe they're in a littlebit, trying to get to another level.
Yeah, absolutely. Again, I find that the bestadvice is often the simplest. When someone says to

(01:07:09):
me, I want to be a cartoonist, I want to be anartist, I want to do a comic strip, I want to do
compliments, whatever it is, they say, just draw.
Get yourself a stack of the cheapest copy paperyou can and just draw and draw and draw. If you're
a kid or an artist just starting out, do not buy a$35 sketchbook because you're only going to want

(01:07:34):
to put your best work in there. And none of yourwork is ever going to be your best work because
you're always going to get better, you're alwaysgoing to improve, and it becomes too intimidated.
And what people do is they just don't put anythingin that sketchbook. But if you know that paper is
cheap and accessible and, easy, and it's justthere, you'll draw to your heart's content. If you

(01:07:56):
make a mistake, set it aside so you can see whereyou made a mistake and start over. But, but really
the core of the advice is if you want to be anartist, just draw. And if you're just drawing,
you're an artist. As long as you're creating,you're an artist.
I think that's absolutely, spot on and wonderfuladvice because it's like every.

Joe Wos (01:08:15):
Other form of art.
The only way to get good at it is to just do itand do it and do it. And what you're talking about
is absolutely true. If you can find. There'sreally not much in the art world that's less
expensive to get into than ordinary paper,printing paper or whatever, and a, pen or a pencil
that's as cheap as it gets if.
Internet goes down so long AI electricity goesout. Oh, well, but I've got that. I can get paper

(01:08:43):
and pen and I can create to my heart's content foras much as I want. And I can entertain people with
it too. You know, it's a wonderful gift to have.
Absolutely. And, and I think that that's fabulousadvice. Joe Oes this has been an absolutely
wonderful episode of Story, Beat today. And forthose of you that are interested in Joe's work,

(01:09:05):
you can check out May's tunes, you can check out,any of his many books that are available on Amazon
and elsewhere, and also Cartoon Academy on pbs.
Joe, I can't thank you enough for your time, yourenergy, and your wisdom that you've shared shared
with us today.
Thank you so much. Always a pleasure seeing you.
And so we've come to the end of today's StoryBeat. If you like this episode, won't you please

(01:09:26):
take a moment to give us a comment, rating orreview on whatever app or platform you're
listening to? Your support helps us bring moregreat Story Beat episodes to you. Story Beat is
available on all major podcast apps and platforms,including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify,
iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until nexttime, I'm Steve Cuden, and may all your stories,

(01:09:52):
be unforgettable.