Pia Mailhot-Leichter, Creative Partner-Author-Coach-Entrepreneur, #375

Pia Mailhot-Leichter is a creative partner, published author, certified coach, and entrepreneur. Her path has been anything but ordinary: a recovering nomad, she’s reported as a journalist in Sri Lanka, graduated summa cum laude from NYU, and worked as an award-winning creative director for some of the biggest brands in the world. Now, as the founder of Kollektiv Studio, through creative partnership, from storytelling to coaching, Pia is uniquely positioned to co-create wild visions and ventures.

Kollektiv Studio works with founders, leaders, and creatives with a rebellious spirit and visionary tendencies. As Pia puts it, "The outcome isn't just what you create—it's who you become in the process."

She recently published Welcome to the Creative Club, a book that challenges everything people thought they knew about creativity. Praised by Google's Global Head of Creative & Innovation as "life-changing," and by iconic fashion designer Betsey Johnson as "a wild ride," this part-memoir, part-guide invites readers to make life their biggest art project and reclaim their creative power.

I’ve read Welcome to the Creative Club and as a lifelong creator myself, I found it to be eye-opening in how Pia cuts straight to the heart of overcoming the stumbling blocks that most creatives encounter. If you’re looking to supercharge your creativity, I highly recommend Welcome to the Creative Club to you.

Episode Transcript

Steve Cu (00:00):
On today's Story Beat,
What stops most of us from being creative is thebelief that, oh, I'm not creative. I don't even
know how to draw a stick figure. If I told you howmany times I've heard that, it's like, you know,
artistic expression is one form of creativity, butit's not the only one. Creativity lives in

(00:21):
virtually every single domain. If you're a human,you're a natural born creative.
This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden A podcast forthe creative mind. Story Beat explores how masters
of creativity develop and produce brilliant worksthat people everywhere love and admire. So join us

(00:44):
as we discover how talented creators find successin the worlds of imagination and entertainment.
Here now is your host, Steve Cuden
Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We're comingto you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania. My guest today, Pia Mailhot-Leichteris a creative partner, published author, certified

(01:10):
coach and entrepreneur. Her path has been anythingbut ordinary. A recovering nomad, she's reported
as a journalist in Sri Lanka and graduated summacum laude from NYU and worked as an award winning
creative director for some of the biggest brandsin the world. Now as the founder of Kollektiv
Studio. Through creative partnership fromstorytelling to coaching, Pia is uniquely

(01:35):
positioned to co create wild visions and ventures.
Kollektiv studio works with founders, leaders andcreatives with a rebellious spirit and visionary
tendencies. As Pia puts it, the outcome isn't justwhat you create, it's who you become in the
process. She recently published welcome to theCreative Club, a book that challenges everything

(01:57):
people thought they knew about creativity. Praisedby Google's global head of creative and innovation
as life changing and by iconic fashion designerBetsey Johnson as a wild ride, this part memoir,
part guide invites readers to make life theirbiggest art project and reclaim their creative
power. I've read welcome to the Creative Club andas a lifelong creator myself, I found it to be eye

(02:22):
opening and how Pia cuts straight to the heart ofovercoming the stumbling blocks that most
creatives encounter. If you're looking tosupercharge your creativity, I highly recommend
welcome to the Creative Club to you. So for allthose reasons and many more, I'm deeply honored
and to have the creative force better known as PiaLeichter join me today. Pia, welcome to Storybeat.

(02:46):
Thank you so much, Steve. What a warm and lovelywelcome. It's a pleasure to be here.
It's a great pleasure to have you here. So let'sgo back in time a little bit. When, at what point
in your life did you know you were a creativeperson?
You know, it's really interesting because as weare all creative people, but as kids, it's. We're

(03:09):
just. It's naturally creative. Like, we don't. Idon't even think of myself. We don't think of
ourselves as creative as kids. Right. We're justmaking stuff. Right. We're just playing. We're
just imagining. We're just doing things. So, froma really young age, I remember playing and
creating. You know, I would write stories about aprincess who didn't need a kiss to wake up and,

(03:30):
you know, inspired by Shel Silverstein's poems andwriting my own poems and, you know, doing a lot of
different things. And I was fortunate to grow upin, a household where my dad's an abstract
painter. So creativity and art were just a part oflife. Like, you know, weekends would come, he'd
put on classical music or Stevie Wonder on theradio, and he would start painting in front of a

(03:53):
canvas with his paint splattered jeans and a cupof coffee nearby. And I'd be on the floor, you
know, drawing or writing, I'd usually write. Thatwas my medium.
So you were surrounded by art even as a child?
Yes, and it was always something that was justwhat we did do, you know, it didn't really feel
special because it's what was around me. Even hisfriends, my dad had a loft on the Lower east side

(04:17):
on the Bowery in New York City for 25 years. So alot of artist friends.
I think that makes you, as a creative person.
That's your natural being. That's the state thatyou grew up in. It isn't something that you had to
force or go find. It was just always there.
Exactly. Ah. I mean, then the question is, am Icreative enough? Right. There's always that

(04:40):
enoughness as you get older, but not as a child.
And how do you apply it? How do you apply what youhave into whatever it is you're doing? And like
you say, as kids, we're all very creative. We playand we have all that fun. But sometimes as adults,
we lose some of that. And I think that's what'shelpful about your book, is that it brings us to
the how can we do this as a, as an adult? Not onlyjust in life, but in work and all the rest of it?

(05:05):
Were you a competitive kid? Was that somethingthat you like to do to compete?
No, no, I don't think so. I think as an, as anadult. Well, you know, listen, I remember I had
this question asked so many times as A kid, it'slike, oh, so, you know, do you draw and paint like
your father? Like, it's like. And I would almostwant to rebel against that because it was his, it

(05:28):
wasn't mine. So I think. Not that there was anycompetition, but it, you know, there was a
comparison from the outside about, like, oh, ofcourse I would do what my father does. And I
always felt like I wanted to claim my own way ofcreating so that it was mine in a way.
Well, that's. I think all kids want to sort ofdistance themselves at some point from what their

(05:50):
parents do. Even if they do what their parents do,they want to distance themselves. You say, which I
found fascinating, that you're a recovering nomad.
What does that mean?
That means that I spent my whole life moving andtraveling. My mom a, proud hippie and independent,

(06:10):
independent spirit. Just, you know, she loved doovers. She liked a good move. She liked change.
And so we would pack up every year, two years, andmove to different places. So my dad was like. He
was always on the Lower east side, so that feltmost like home. When I've lived Manhattan and
Brooklyn and Puerto Rico and Montreal and Ottawaand Vermont and just moving, moving a lot.

(06:35):
And how do you think that impacted you, not onlyas a child, but ultimately as a creative person?
Whew. That's a great question. As a child, itshaped me. It shaped who I am. It taught me so
much. It taught me how to adapt, and how to, in away, shapeshift to be in many different cultures.
Well, you have that in the book that you're ashapeshifter. So as long as you've brought it up,

(06:58):
what does that mean, that you're a shapeshifter?
That means I'm able to read the energy in a room,you know, the culture in a particular place, sort
of, you know, how do I. What do I need to wear?
How do I need to be in order to not only survive,but to thrive? M. To, like, fit in, to be a part
of this. Even though I might not be here for verylong, I want the time that I am here to be good,

(07:22):
to be meaningful.
The word shapeshifter is used quite liberally as acharacter trait in storytelling, and shape
shifters are in lots and lots and lots of stories.
and you've noted for yourself that you're ashapeshifter, and that means that you're able to
sort of meld yourself into whatever circumstanceyou're in.

(07:43):
Yeah. And that can be a gift and a curse.

Steve Cuden (07:46):
How so?
Well, because I start to ask myself the question.
It's like when you keep changing shapes over andover again, you know, do you forget the original
form or shape of you?
And do you. And what do you do if you do?
Well, I think. I think I do. I did at some point,you know, and then it's a homecoming age. Look,
they're not tons of benefits about getting older.

(08:08):
Older, but one of them is, like, feeling more athome in the skin you're in.
Mm.
You know, and being able to sort of stay grounded.
Like, yes, I could shift to make other peoplecomfortable or to make this smoother, but you know
what? I'm not going to, because I don't have to. Idon't have to worry about making other people okay

(08:30):
for me to be okay. It's a very, you know, as ayoung, child, like, as a young person, that was
often sort of what was guiding me to, like, how doI make everything okay so that I could also be
okay?
Well, you also had that issue where you werealways moving, so you were in new environments all
the time, and you were trying to fit in, I assume.
Yeah. I mean, and I usually did. I did a prettygood job. And so it was just. And I think at some

(08:54):
point as I got older, it's like, okay, wait aminute. I realized and became aware I don't have
to fit into any shape or into any room. I don'thave to, you know, make myself smaller or just
change how I'm feeling or who I am in any givensituation. I can, but I don't have to.
You don't need Alice's magic pill to get larger orsmaller?

(09:18):
No, I don't. But actually, the practice is stayingmy size.
how. That's interesting. What does that mean?
Well, that means that, you know, being able. Istay me being able to be compassionate and
empathetic and understand people and see peopleand feel their energy and. And not take the pill
that I think is needed to make, other people okayor the surroundings better. But just to know that

(09:43):
I can be who I am and as I am and hold space forpeople being who they are and as they are without
needing to change.
Do you think that makes you a little bit of anempath?
Oh, definitely. I think. To a certain. Definitely.
I mean, I also grew up in a lot of chaos. Bless myparents. I grew up with a lot of love, but, you
know, my mom loved to party, and there was a lotof chaos in my home, apart from moving and stuff.

(10:08):
And there's a lot of life and color and sound andalso changing shapes. People change shapes when
they drink.
For sure.
You have to learn how to, like, oh, this isunpredictable. So you become more highly sensitive
to the environment.
And that, I assume, has helped you greatly overthe years as a creative director, because you're

(10:32):
able to, work your way around whatever that wasthose circumstances are that you're being thrown
into.
Definitely. And it also made me a greatstoryteller because sometimes when life, as it
was, felt scary or difficult, I was able to escapeinto the world of my own making. I had an
imagination that would take me places, and I couldgo there, and I would travel there often when I

(10:57):
needed to, within myself, within the stories Iwould write or create, within, and also within
other people's stories. I mean, I remember sittingon the floor in Barnes and Noble. I could just. In
Manhattan, I could just. 6th Avenue. I could justsit there for hours, just reading stories as a kid
and then also creating them myself. And so I thinkin many ways, you know, the shit in our lives that

(11:17):
we might go through, become. There are gifts init, there's gold in it. We just need to be able to
see it.
If you can back up enough to take perspective andsee it.
Absolutely. And when we learn to appreciateeverything, who we are, and everything it took to
bring us to this place. And I do think there'salways a flip side, you know, to every gift,

(11:41):
there's a flip side. To every curse, there's alsoa flip side.
Well, that's the infamous, silver lining in thegray cloud. It's always there.
It's always there. So I'm grateful for everythingI went through because it made me who I am and it
gave me superpowers. I also have Kryptonitethrough it, too. But, you know, it gave me
superpowers.

(12:02):
I think that kind of just makes you human.

Pia Mailhot-L (12:04):
Yeah, definitely.
Everybody has whatever their Kryptonite is, andsometimes it really knocks you for a loop, and
sometimes you overcome it relatively easily. Itjust depends upon the circumstance. So you
eventually become a longtime creative director forlots of different products. did you go to school
to learn to be a creative director?

Pia Mailhot-Le (12:26):
No, I never did.

Steve Cu (12:27):
How did you get there?
So I went to Hunter College in New York City, andI studied English language arts, so language,
literature, arts and writing. And I always. I waswriting a lot then, and I wanted to make a career
in writing or creativity. But I think. And I'mstill. This is a story. I'm still rewriting, and

(12:49):
I'M very conscious of it. I grew up witnessing myfather in New York City as an abstract painter. Go
through the highs and lows of being an artist.
Also financially, it's a tough life. At leastthat's what I saw. You know, and I, and I saw ah,
financial strife and difficulties and him workingas a blackjack dealer for the Mafia and him, you

(13:09):
know, working at the Metropolitan Museum of Art asa security guard, working as a merchant marine for
six months in Borneo just to be able to make hisart. Like that's. It was all just to fuel and fund
his art. He, I remember he used to tell me, youknow, I didn't choose art, art chose me.
that's a very compelling way to look at it.

(13:31):
Yeah, he said I had to do it, this is what I wasmeant to do. And so he did everything he could to
do it. But it meant, and sometimes also, you know,a lot of women don't want to be number two to his
art. It had a lot of consequences. Like from mysmall, like little person's eyes, there are a lot
of consequences to choosing to follow the artpath. You had to pay a hefty rebell insecure.

(13:58):
It's not something you can rely on if you're goingto be a true artist. you might get to a point
where you can rely on it, but not at first. It'susually almost impossible.
Well, yeah, definitely. And so I think what Ididn't see and that I realized as I reflected on
it and I got older was that my dad is a gifted,talented artist, but not a stellar businessman.

(14:20):
So I think that's true for a lot of artists. Artschools don't teach you how to be in business as
an artist.
No, my dad didn't like selling his art to peoplehe didn't like.
So that might have eliminated a few dollars inyour pocket.
Right. I mean, which I get. You know, you wouldspend months on a piece, you know, and if he, for

(14:41):
him, it, there's so much meaning in it and I guessit got, it's very personal. Right. And business is
not personal. So there are challenges. But I thinkI carried a sort of a fear within that if I chose
just to focus on writing that I would have thisvery insecure, financially difficult, up and down
experience.
And then you go into a business of creativedirector, where you are actually working for

(15:06):
others. So therefore you have to have a little bitof a mercenary's attitude where I'm going to do
this great job whether I like them or the Productor not?
Oh, definitely. Well, I mean, you, you, you haveto like it to a certain degree, like the product.
You have to believe in what you're to, to. To makegreat work, you have to also believe in what

(15:27):
you're.
You're creating or it comes off as false.
Exactly. So there, there was that. But what. Thereason I went down the commercial creativity route
was because I was like, hm, how can I keepcreating but have like some. What might that look
like? Oh, advertising, you know, and slashmarketing. Let's. Let's do that. But I didn't go

(15:50):
there, right out of Hunter College. Cause I wasalso thinking, like, I love traveling. I wasn't a
recovering. We'll come back to the recoveringpart. We never got there. I wasn't recovering yet.
So still very nomadic, right? I was like, I wantto travel, I want to make, create. What might it
be? You know? And so I was searching. I did amaster's in, like, I didn't finish. I did a

(16:10):
master's class in cultural anthropology and then Iended up doing, Wanting to explore international
relations. Like, I don't know. So I didn't know.
but I decided if I'm gonna do something in thosefields, I better be able to survive in a very
different place. So that brought me to, Actuallyit was an internship working for a local Sunday

(16:31):
English publication in Sri Lanka, in Colombo,right. So right after Hunter, I decided to go do
that work as a journalist in Sri Lanka. And Iended up publishing seven pieces, op ed pieces on.
It was 2002, so it was the US incursion into Iraqwithout the UN's, you know, without going through

(16:53):
the UN and everything that that meant forinternational law and who we were as a country.
And I remember thinking, oh man, they might notlet me back in. They would have let me back in
then, but not now. That's probably true withoutgetting into politics. But, And so I did that and
I was like, oh, this is interesting. And I alsoworked for an ngo, as in marketing and
Communication at the time. There are differentopportunities that popped up for me while I was in

(17:16):
Sri Lanka. And I also worked for the undp,rewriting their website copy so that it wouldn't
sound so. So many acronyms. So people actuallyunderstood what they did in the country. And, out
here, this is the thing. It's like quasi advice.
What I did was after I had published like, I thinkthere were seven to nine articles in the Sunday

(17:37):
paper. It's called the Sunday Leader. I was like,I want to do something more. I don't know what it
is. Journalism is good. I created my own littleportfolio and I went knocking on doors, you know,
and that's how I got these different roles. Iwould. I pick up the phone and say, hey, this is
who I am. This is what I can do. I have, I have, Ihave nine articles here that was in Sri Lanka or

(17:58):
Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka, you know. And so that got methis part time road that an ngo, a Big Plan
international, worked, writing articles for theCanadian International Development Agency on their
projects in the country and then doing the UNDPwebsite copywriting. So that was just me saying,
what do I have to lose? Let me take a chance. Ihave a little something in my pocket now because I

(18:22):
had, you know, let's take that and show them like,this is evidence. Like, hey, I can do this for you
too. And that opened up a lot of doors.
And how does that then turn into being a, creativedirector? And by the way, what does a creative
director do for those that don't know?
So I came back home and I thought, you know what,what if I use creativity to do good in the world?

(18:45):
I would like to do that. Because that's what itfelt like I was doing in Sri Lanka. I was doing
that. And I thought, well, maybe I'll get mymaster's in global affairs. This will be. So I
went to NYU and I got my master's in internationalrelations, which was eye opening and fantastic. I
wrote my thesis on the role of transitionaljustice and post conflict peace building. Never
really used it, but here we are. And then, I hadthe chance to work at the UNDP in marketing and

(19:11):
communications on a contract role for not enoughmoney based on the loan that I had on my back from
NYU or produce an economic documentary in Bahrain.
So I decided to do the economic documentary inBahrain, which ended up being ad sales. I didn't
know that producing it, I thought it was gonna belike, you know, writing the script and, you know,

(19:32):
all the creative stuff. But it was. No. We alsohad to produce it, so we had to sell ad space to
get it off the ground.

Steve Cuden (19:37):
Wow, okay.
And I was like, I just wrote on transitionaljustice and now I'm selling ad space in the Middle
East. What is going on as.
As one does, right?
It's just, what am I doing here? Ah, but it taughtme a lot. It taught me a lot about sales and
communication and how important communication is,how important pitching your ideas are.

(20:00):
Well, pitching is a form of sales and you're thenselling. To be able to sell.
Absolutely. But it's also a way of being able tosuccinctly tell a compelling story.
Well, absolutely. And you are working in a, fieldin which you're doing the most difficult sales
jobs ever. Storytelling jobs ever. Which is short.

(20:20):
And short is hard.

Pia Mailhot-Leichte (20:22):
Absolutely.
Getting your message across and making it clean,that's hard to do.
It was. And so actually I really did have momentswhere I wondered, what the heck am I doing here?
Like really those crisis moments of really, howdid I get here? but looking back once again, the
gift of hindsight, it did give me a lot. It taughtme a lot. It taught a lot of tools. I ended up

(20:43):
using much. So then I ended up going, to France. Ileft and I was wondering, what am I going to do? I
met my, actually my ex husband and he lived inFrance. So we went to France and I started to
apply for a lot of different jobs in France and inLondon, in Paris and London. And I ended up
getting interviewed by a, brand agency in Londonwho appreciated this, geopolitical background I

(21:10):
had because they were working with Shell at thetime and who wanted really to engage with the
citizens of 2050 who would be living with theconsequences of the energy choices we make today.
And this is a long time ago. And they thought, oh,you're profile, this is okay. You might not have
agency, background, but you have an eclecticbackground that I think could really suit this

(21:34):
global campaign and a strategic background thatwe're interested in. So I got the job. My first
agency role, and I remember it was in London. Iremember being in my first brainstorm. It was not
for Shell, it was for someone else. It's anagency, so you work with a lot of different
clients and coming up with ideas with mycolleagues and thinking, oh my God, I get paid to

(21:58):
do this. This is so much fun.

Steve Cuden (22:00):
Oh, that's nice.
It was an absolute blast. It's like, how can we dothis? I don't know. Let's think about it. What
might it look like? How might we solve thisproblem? And oh, how might we communicate that
what would get people's attention? And it was justreally, it was really fun. And I think fun and
enjoyment, are really good sign that you're in theright place.
Yeah. Because it means that you really want to dothat.

(22:23):
Yeah, it's enjoyable. It's like this M feels good.
And so I kind of stumbled into it, I guess. Well,not really stumbled because I was applying for
more creative roles across the Board. But I couldhave landed at arguably many different places. And
that was where my agency career started. And Ididn't start as a creative director. You never
start as a creative director. I started off as itwas a brand agency, so it was interesting. It was

(22:46):
kind of sitting on creative strategy and also,concepting and copywriting.
And were you being taught things by these folks orwere you just absorbing it yourself, or how did
you learn?
Well, I was being taught a lot by the people I waswith, but I also had my own. Like, I had been
writing for a really long time. But of course,writing for NGOs is very different than writing

(23:12):
for corporate. So I think you learn.
Well, being a writer does not necessarily make youa strategist, and you're talking about strategy.

Pia M (23:19):
That's true. That's true.
So how did you learn to be strategic?
I think that's a good question. I don't know ifyou. I think it was just experience. And I've
always been quite strategic in my thinking, eventhough I'm. I mean, you know, it's an interesting
thing. People, especially in the old advertisingworld, you would have planning departments which

(23:40):
are strategy, and you would have creative as veryseparate.

Steve Cuden (23:44):
Right.
Two separate departments, which never really madesense to me because the best creative work comes
from really understanding what the problem is thatwe're trying to solve and getting really, really
clear on that and from that place. And, like,what's the insight? What's the core human insight
for our audience? What is the real problem we'retrying to solve here? And really getting under the

(24:09):
skin of that. And then the creative ideas are,meaty and juicy and relevant and finger on the
pulse kind of thing.
When you figure out why corporations insulate oneparticular department from another, you let me
know. Because for whatever reason, there's a lotof that that goes on in corporate entities, in
organizations, because there are little fiefdomsthat build up and people protect their fiefdoms

(24:35):
and then they don't interact, and that becomes aproblem.
Yeah, and in agencies, I mean, luckily I was.
There was the CEO of the first agency that Istarted at in London. It was very progressive. And
so she hired people with a lot of different skillsets. So when clients came to us, it wasn't just,
oh, your problem is X. the answer is an ad. Right.

(24:56):
So she had change management consultants and PRpeople and designers and, you know, a host of
people with different skills. That's. That couldreally answer, understand what the problem was and
then figure out what tool was needed rather thanjust one particular thing.
All right, so for those who don't know, which willbe many who are listening to this show, what does

(25:21):
a creative director do? What's the purpose of thatposition?
A, creative director, usually you come from eithera copywriting background or sort of an art
director, slash design background. I'm on the copyside of life. So it's a blend, which is what I
love about it, of creative strategy isunderstanding what is it we're really trying to

(25:42):
solve. Creative client facilitation andpartnership. So being able to work really closely
with clients and facilitate workshops and thinkingand ideas and sparring to really also challenge to
be like, okay, is this really the problem we'retrying to solve? I mean, like, what's, what's
really going on here? Let's look at this. Becausethe best work I've ever done in my entire career

(26:03):
has always been in close partnership with myclients.
Nice.
Always like looking back, award winning work.
That's because I had a great partnership. Closepartnership because the client will know more
about their brand than I can ever venture to knowabout. But I know that makes sense what I know
about. And so together we're unstoppable.
Right.
anywho, so creative strategy, copywriting andideas concepting. So being able to come up with,

(26:31):
with ideas, whether it's for campaigns or it's forproducts or whatever it might be for, but being
able to ideate. But as a creative director, it'snot about you in the sense that it's really about
creatively directing not only clients but alsoteams. So being able to serve as a soundboard and
inspiration to be able to activate, curiosity andpassion and ideas and the best from the creatives

(27:00):
that are working within different teams.
And so you are the leader of the creativeenterprise, is that right?
Or different creative teams, depending on whoyou're, how you're set up as an agency. So you
might be the head of a creative department, but inlike in the US for example, you have huge, like

(27:21):
you could have huge. A lot of people working forone particular client. So you might even have
several creative directors for that particularclient with different teams. So it depends on how
big. In Europe it's a little bit we have. Thebudgets are not as big, so we have smaller teams
and more clients.
Correct me if I'm wrong. The creative director cangenerate the ideas that work, but may not

(27:43):
necessarily generate those ideas, but oversee theproduction and the creation of those ideas into
what ultimately is advertising of some Kind ormarketing of some kind.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter (27:54):
True.
That's. So I got it right. Yay. it's alwaysfascinating to me that I think most consumers
don't realize that this product that they'relooking at on TV or listening on the radio or
seeing on a billboard or wherever, that they don'trealize that there was a whole big machine that
happened to make that appear.

Pia Mailhot-Leichte (28:17):
Absolutely.
And that machine is a very creative machine. Eventhough sometimes it looks like that doesn't look
good creative at all. But it is, in fact, a highlycreative thing. So let's talk about your book.
Let's talk about. Welcome to the creative club.
it's clear why you wrote it, but why did you writeit now?
I wrote it now because I'm not sure I wasconscious of this at the time, but definitely

(28:41):
reflecting back on it, I think we're at a periodin time where many of us feel disempowered, also
creatively like that things are coming at us.
Things are. Life is happening to us. And in manyways, we can feel disconnected from our
creativity. And for me, creativity is a lot morethan creative direction or, you know, just. It's

(29:06):
not only what we do. It's a way of being in theworld. It's how we creatively respond to life.
It's how we creatively direct ourselves in so manyways. So it feels like it's an important time to
reclaim that, to reclaim what's always been ours,which is our creative power and capacity.

(29:29):
You make it abundantly clear in the book that it'snot just about creative works, but it's in fact,
creating a life that's creative.
Definitely. I mean, it's also reframing, framing,or redefining what creativity is. Because what
stops most of us from being creative is the beliefthat, oh, I'm not creative. I don't even know how

(29:52):
to draw a stick figure. If I told you how manytimes I've heard that, it's like, you know,
artistic expression is one form of creativity, butit's not the only one. Creativity lives in
virtually every single domain. Creativity is howwe survived as a species. Creativity is how our

(30:12):
brains are wired. You know, from how our brainsfunction and interact from the default mode
network to the control mode network. We are. Ifyou're a, human, you're a natural born creative.
It's also problem solving. And when we saystrategy, that's just a big word for problem
solving. And we're all problem solvers. We solveproblems every day in our life, all day long, all

(30:35):
Day long, we might not just realize it. That'salso a huge. That's what creativity is. It's like,
oh, you're presented with a challenge and youcreatively respond.
I think a lot of people think that when you saythe word be creative or creativity, that it means
art and it doesn't. It means what it is you'redoing and how you go about making things happen. I

(30:58):
mean, the auto mechanic can be an incrediblycreative person.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter (31:02):
Totally.
It's everywhere. All kinds of people are creative,but they probably don't think of themselves as
being creative. That's what you're pointing out inyour book, is that we're all that way.
Yeah. And I'm also pointing out that when we don'tthink of ourselves as creative as like, oh, I'm
just doing my job, or, oh, this is how it is. Inmany ways. We disconnect from our ability to

(31:24):
create without belief.
Sometimes school kicks that out of us.
That's true. And life does too. You know,sometimes we get, over awe. Ah. And wonder, get
overshadowed by duty and responsibility.
And that's what you mean by saying that the bookchallenges everything people thought they knew
about creativity, right?

Pia Mailhot-Leichte (31:46):
Absolutely.
And it says of your book, or said of your bookthat it is life challenging. In what way is it
life challenging, life changing? Life changing. Ibeg your pardon? You're correct.
No, that's okay. well, I think that's for everyoneto determine on their own. Like, I really. That

(32:06):
that was, Susanna's feeling after she read thebook. So I can't really answer that question for
anyone because that's a very personal. Like, it'slife changing. It was life changing to me.
Rediscovering what creativity means to me. I canonly share my personal experience was life
changing. So after a really gnarly divorce andbeing afraid to sit with my feelings and

(32:31):
everything that was going on after that, jumpinginto a healthy rebound relationship. Getting fired
from my job, which forced me to look at everythingclose up and stop. Just stop. Stop moving, stop
avoiding, stop trying. Just look. And, I took along, hard look. And it was, It was like life

(32:51):
played 52 pickup with me. You know, everything wason the floor and I decided my gut. It was a felt
sense, said, you need to do something different.
And so I went on the Trans Siberian instead of.
For four weeks alone. Instead of looking foranother job or getting caught in a fear loop or
doing a host of different things that I might havedone in the past, but it really felt strongly

(33:14):
like, no no, no, you got to do somethingdifferent. So I did. I went on the Trans Siberian,
and it gave me two really powerful reminders. One,that of course I was going to be okay on my own.
I've been on my own for years. And I grew up inNew York city in the 80s and 90s. I mean, of
course I'm gonna be all right. Two, that the worldis full of adventure and wonder. If we can just

(33:37):
open to it and allow ourselves to receive it andexperience it and take. Take some risks and get
out there. I mean, from the Gobi Desert to Moscowand Lenin's tomb, like, it was just. And all the
people I met in between, it was a reminder of howbig and wondrous life is. And the epiphany, or the

(33:57):
life changing moment was when I was sitting backin the train, the landscape of Siberia hurtling
outside the window, looking in front of me at aRussian man cradling a bottle of vodka, punching
the steel wall, smelling sauerkraut and body odor,and just, like, taking in the scene and thinking,
oh, my God, wait a minute. I creatively directedthis. Like, I made this happen. I brought myself

(34:24):
here. I created this moment. Scene, set design,main character energy, the cast of characters, I
mean, you name it, costume design, I created that.
Nobody forced you to do it. You did it right.
And it was that realization that I'm not only acreative director at work, I'm creatively

(34:47):
directing my life. And you don't any. For anyonewho's listening, you don't need to be a creative
director to do that, to creatively direct yourlife, to become aware that you are also happening
to life. Life is not just happening to you. Andyou get to choose that. You get to create the
scene.
That certainly got to be a part of why BetseyJohnson called it a wild ride. And then beyond it,

(35:12):
obviously. but life does not have to be a wildride in order to be a creative life. It just is.
In your case, no, it doesn't have to be a wildride. That's my scene. That's my choice. That's my
creative direction. So everyone.
I think most life is wild, but it doesn't have tobe.
No, I think it could be whatever you want it tobe. And that's really the key to all of this, is

(35:37):
getting closer to who you are and what moves you,what triggers you, what motivates you, what lights
you up. And, creating from that place, which isbound to be original because there's no other
Steve Kudin like you in the world.

Steve Cuden (35:53):
Are you sure?

Pia Mailhot-Leich (35:55):
I'm positive.
I think that's prove me wrong. In some ways. Ithink that's a good thing. So what would you say
are some of the bigger challenges that you had toovercome while conceiving and writing the entirety
of the book?
Whew. Well, the first challenge I had to overcomewas I needed to smash the myth that, I needed to

(36:19):
write the book alone in a cabin in the woods withmy typewriter and a pipe.

Steve Cuden (36:24):
And a pipe.
I don't know, I just said like a Hemingway thing.
I just like, I don't know. I just, I just havethis in a bottle of whiskey. I just, you know, had
this idea that I needed to be prolific and it wasjust all going to flow through me and I was going
to write it all by myself. And this myth, which isa cultural myth, was getting in my way of
creating. And, that myth got smashed when Istarted working with a hybrid publisher. Because

(36:48):
of course I'm not doing this on my own.
Creativity, not a lone task. You know, we'reconstantly co creating and so I worked with an,
with editors. And that was extremely helpful as Ito know that like, I have a team, I have people
that can help make me even a better writer, thatcan work with me, that I can spar with. And then

(37:10):
I'm also accountable to. I have deadlines.
You just said something that you write about inthe book about that creativity is not a lone act.
I think it can be in parts lone or lonely oralone. but it doesn't have to be. And ultimately
it isn't. Ultimately, if you're going to be anartist, you're going to share your work with

(37:33):
others, the public or whoever else. And that isdefinitely not a lone act because your art then
becomes what they perceive of it.
Absolutely. And also I believe that creativity,you know, the ideas that we get are coming through
us in a variety of different ways. So I believewe're not creating alone. We're also co creating

(37:59):
with the universe, if you ask me.
So as you were writing the book, did you have asense that what you were writing would be
effective and applicable to many people?
I wrote the book when I started writing the book,and we're gonna answer that, but I'm gonna go
backwards. Another thing that got in my way forthe process of writing was, holding on too tight

(38:22):
to what the book needed to do and the outcome,what it needed to be for me and for other people.
So it blocked me. So I needed to let it go, Ineeded to let it go and just say, you know what?
My intention writing this book is to hopefullymake an impact in one person's life. And I'm gonna
let go, and whatever needs to emerge from me isgoing to emerge from me, and I'm gonna trust it.

(38:45):
And then the word started to flow. The more that Itried to choke it and think, who's gonna get value
and what is this gonna be? The more it wasblocking me. I had to trust that, it would. If I
wrote from a place that was true, that was veryimportant for me. Does this feel true? Not is this
good, not is this bad? But does this feel true?
So you had to learn to trust yourself in doingthis.

Pia Mailhot-Leichte (39:07):
Absolutely.
And even though you'd been a creative person andhave been a creative person your entire life, you
weren't sure of yourself at that moment, and youneeded to learn to be sure of yourself.
Sure. I think we could be creative, and we'realways still human, and insecurity is a part of
that. Right. And whenever we're about to embark onany new creative venture, which is going to be

(39:30):
new, if it's creative, if we've done it before,it's not very creative. Right. So there's going to
be an element of what I call the wobbles. It'sgoing to be like, oh, can I do this? Like, what is
this? Oof.
That's where things really start to happen, isn'tit?
Yeah. And I think we all counter that. And ifwe're lucky, because it's a sign that we're
growing, we're going to encounter it again andagain. Right. The point is not to not encounter

(39:54):
it.
It's fearful in some ways to some people. And whenyou get those wobbles or you become insecure or
unsure or whatever those words might be, thatsometimes you have to work to overcome it in order
to move forward. And that's part of the process,and it actually stops some people from moving
forward, and that's what they have to overcome.

(40:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes justallowing it, like, ooh, I feel wobbly. And then
reminding yourself of, why are you writing thisbook? Why are you creating this? What's the
intention behind it? And does this feel true tome? And, let that guide you. Don't worry about the

(40:37):
rest. The rest is the rest. People will interpretthe book or get value from it or not. That's not
up to you.
So ultimately, you had to satisfy yourself first.
Yeah. Or I don't know if the Word is satisfied.
But I felt compelled to write the things I waswriting about because it wasn't always very
satisfying to write about. you know, stories ofwhere I lost my creative power. That was

(40:59):
difficult. They were vulnerable stories. I wasn'tanticipating. I didn't expect to write those
stories. It wasn't part of my plan, but it's whatemerged.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, once you didwrite it, once you did get to it, then you went,
okay, this is the right path. I am going to writeabout this. It is going into the book. I'm not
going to cut it out. And that then became thesatisfying part, is, okay, this is now. Right?

(41:24):
That's what I'm trying to get to.
Yeah. I think the word I would use is fulfilling.
Great. it fulfilled you once you got there. But ittook you a little while to get there.
Oh, it did. And luckily, again, I had a greateditor who was super. She was fantastic. And we
would always ask the question, is this in serviceof the story and the reader? There's a really good

(41:46):
filter always. So that was always the filter. Isthis in service of. So we're not just going to
share things that were difficult. Just for me.
That's not. Because it's in service of the readerand the story.
So what did you get to along the way thatsurprised you? Were there epiphany moments where
it was like, wow, I'd never thought of thatbefore. And what surprised you?

(42:07):
having to write, there's only one pure memoirchapter in the book where I write about my
marriage and divorce. and I remember I handed therough draft in to my editor, and she said, this
doesn't sound like the PIA I know today wrotethis. This sounds like the perspective of an older

(42:28):
version of you. It's not very compassionate. And Ithink your readers deserve the version of Pia
that's here right now. It's important. And thatsurprised the heck out of me. And it made me aware
that I was still looking at myself and that partof my life through the eyes of an older version of
me that was less forgiving and less kind and lesswise.

(42:51):
And that helped. I assume that those.
Oh, hell, yeah. That was extremely transformative.
I rewrote the chapter, and I got a chance to. Torewrite my story from the perspective of the woman
I am today. And that was incredibly healing.
Again, that wasn't the intention, but it wasincredibly healing. It was very transformative,
and anyone can do that, by the way. You don't haveto publish it. It's, a very powerful act to write

(43:15):
and reclaim your story from the eyes of the personand perspective of the person you are today.
Because we could forget that we might be stuck inan old past. An old prescription you write in the.
Book, and I'm quoting you. Creativity is the actof transformation. Taking no thing, the word
nothing, no thing, an abstract idea, and turningit into something, whether a product, poem, book

(43:41):
or business plan. So that's partly what you'retalking about, is you're taking this other life
that you had, which was something else or itwasn't nothing, obviously, but turning it into
something different or other.

Pia Ma (43:56):
Yeah. And a reclamation.
And a reclamation. And that was then an epiphanyfor you in going through that, I assume.
Definitely it was an epiphany that I was stuck. I,was stuck looking at this in an antiquated way,
that it needed an update. But I didn't realize Iwas stuck till I wrote about it.

(44:17):
Well, you, write all kinds of wonderful things inthe book. That creativity is not just something
you do, it's a way of being. And so that life thenis a creative act. From the moment you wake up, or
I guess even in your sleep, it's a creative act.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter (44:30):
Totally.
Ah, the dreaming is a part of that. and that youtalk about believing in what you're doing. This is
partly what you're alluding to, I think. Howimportant is it for artists to believe what
they're doing now, as a creative director, wetalked about that already, that you needed to get
past it being false or fake, or you have tobelieve in it. But as a human, as an artist, how

(44:54):
important does that then become?
Is believing in what you're making? Is that whatyou mean?
Yes. Or. And yourself, I guess, too, the word.
That comes up for me most is trust first more thanthe. Because maybe belief follows. Do you know,
like trusting in yourself and trusting in life andtrusting in your work. So let's say you have an

(45:15):
idea to do, to create something, whatever thatmight be, allowing it, like following it, trusting
it, not needing to know exactly what it will be.
Because you can't. Because that's part of thecreative process, is not knowing and allowing
yourself just to trust yourself. That no matterwhat it becomes, it's. It's coming from you and

(45:37):
it's meant to be there in some way. And thatbuilds belief. I think we. That feels like a
prerequisite for me, is just to trust, Trustyourself. And maybe this is cliche, but it's so
damn true. Trust the process. Allow yourself to bein it.
Our artists sometimes have to take a leap of faithinto the void. And, that can be really scary

(45:59):
sometimes.
Oh, yes, we definitely. I mean, I think every timeyou. You're about to create, you take a leap into
the void. Because in the void is uncertainty. Andit's a liminal space. It's when you're between
what was and what, what could be, you know, andit's unknown. So it can feel like a, hallway of

(46:19):
doors. It can feel like so many different things.
But that's the creative juice. That's where, youknow, you're in. You're in the thick of it and
just becoming aware of like, oh, it feels like thevoid. Oh, this is wildly uncomfortable. Oh, yeah,
good. You're in the creative juice, man. You're inthe sauce. Stay in it. You know, it's that.
It's that discomfort that actually is where itstarts.

(46:39):
Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. And if you start tofeel that discomfort, just becoming aware, like,
oh, man, I'm hitting that creative nerve. This isgood stuff. Even if it's uncomfortable, that will
help you be in it.
Well, you also discuss that artists sometimes havea touch of madness. You talk about madness in the

(47:00):
book. And, my question is, does it help to have atouch of madness to be a creative person?
Oh, what is that quote? Like, if the world is mad,they'll think a, ah, sane man crazy or something
like that. Do you ever hear that?
I've never heard that. That's a good one, though.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, anyway, in the book, Ikind of smash. Because I do smash some myths in

(47:25):
the book that I feel are really important for usto embrace our creativity. And one of them is that
we don't have to be reliant on alcohol or drugs ormadness in order to create.

Steve Cuden (47:35):
That's.

Pia Ma (47:35):
That's just. It's not a.
Well, you can look at the truly famous madartists. I mean, probably the most famous is Van
Gogh, who was probably pretty crazy to deal within the real world. but yet he turned out this
extraordinary work and he worked through it,whatever it was that he was going through, whether

(47:56):
he had been poisoned or whether he had somethingwrong with him, whatever it was, and that he was a
starving, suffering artist. And it's not necessaryto be a suffering or starving artist, is it?
No, absolutely. And I think there was a piece ofresearch that really resonated and kind of shifted
something within me. When I read it, by apsychologist. It was an academic paper that was

(48:21):
exploring and again, breaking, you know, breakingthe myth or the idea that alcohol and drugs fuels
creativity. And he said, actually the pattern thatwe're seeing, the relationship between drugs and
alcohol and creativity is a sign of a lot ofartistic people being more emotionally sensitive.

(48:44):
So there's a higher sensitivity. So emotions aredeeply felt. And when we feel all emotions deeply,
that can be quite challenging, especially withoutkind of support. So people might then turn to
alcohol in order to numb or drugs to numb thesensitivity. But it's not about fueling the

(49:05):
creativity, it's about numbing the sensitivity.
That's the pattern. And that was fascinating tome.
I think that that's correct. I don't think thatalcohol or drugs actually makes you creative at
all.
No, it doesn't. Research has shown that itdoesn't. It does the opposite.
Right? Well, because it takes you out of who youare sometimes.

Pia Mailhot-Leichter (49:27):
Yes.
And that's not what you want to do if you're goingto be a creator.
no. You want to go deeper into who you are.
Yes. Which is sometimes really painful. And sothat's, People want to avoid it. So what do they
do? They self medicate.
But the beauty is that that pain can also serve asbeautiful creative inspiration. It's something we

(49:51):
can take and transform and turn into something. Wecan use it. We can use it in our work. That's
another perspective we can hold about it.
In light of this, you also talk about the innerjudge. How can we overcome our inner judge?
The beautiful and perhaps simple way of overcomingthe inner judge is inviting in curiosity.

(50:15):
Curiosity and the judge are like oil and water.
They can't coexist in the same room. The minutejudgment starts to appear, activate your
curiosity. So if you go, oh, this is really shit,you know, oh, it's the judges around instead of
that. Activate your curiosity and go, oh, I wonderwhat gold there is in this shit. I wonder how

(50:39):
might I turn that into something else? Oh, maybe Itake that. You know what I mean? We start to get
curious. Curiosity is asking questions. It'sobservation. it's really asking powerful questions
and getting. And getting very curious about whatyou're. You're looking at or what you're making.
And the minute you do that, the judge will startto moonwalk out of the room.

(51:01):
Do we still need our judge in a sense to decide,hey, this work is working, it's done, it's good,
it's worthy of putting out into the world. We needthat judge too, though, don't we?
It's about knowing when to activate what,depending where you are in the process. So I'll
give you a very practical example. When I'msitting down and I'm first starting to write

(51:25):
something, my inner perfectionist or judge willwaltz into this space and go, oh, no, that
sentence, though, really? Is that how you'restarting off? And it will make me freeze. And I'll
say to the judge, hey, thanks for coming over andtrying to make this good so I'm safe, but you're
not needed for this part of the creative process.

(51:48):
I'm going to come back and ask you to come backlater. So thank you, but, no, not now. Out you go.
And then I go back to it. And however many times Ineed to do that, I go back to it. Because that's
the precious kind of ideation, creating time,where it gets to be whatever it needs to be. It
gets to be shit, gets to be gold, gets to be good.
It doesn't matter. The fact is that you're showingup for the work and you're just doing it and just

(52:11):
allowing it to come through, no matter what it is.
Then after it's come through, hey, judge. Hey,evaluator, come back in. How might we make this
stronger? What are the parts that you see thatcould be improved? Let's like, let's get sharp,
right? And then you might invite that inner judgeback in, or inner evaluator at a different point

(52:32):
in your creative process, Then that's helpful. Atthe very beginning, it's not helpful.
But you do need to have, as an artist and as aperson, some form of judgmental ability to say
that this is good, that this does work. It's inthe beginning where it's really difficult to
overcome. If the judge is sitting there saying,no, no, no, this doesn't work.

(52:56):
And I'm just going to challenge that because I'vebeen thinking about this a lot myself. Good.
Another perspective to hold is, well, who are weto judge if it's good or, bad?

Steve Cuden (53:06):
True.
Who am I to judge if it's good or bad? What if Idon't share a piece of work because I think it's
bad? And what if that piece of work would reallypositively impact someone? What if they think it's
good? Who am I to say it's good or bad? My fatherwould definitely disagree with me on this, but
sometimes I just like, you know, to challengethings. I mean, of course we can. I don't even.

(53:26):
The word judge doesn't sit well with me. I canbring in my evaluator and I can bring in my
intuition.
So I've mentioned on this show many times, theauthor Anne Lamott and her book Bird by Bird. Are
you familiar with that book?

Pia Mailhot- (53:40):
Yeah, I'm totally.
And she talks, ah, she's a writer and she'stalking about writing in that book. And she, has
that wonderful chapter in there. And the title ofit is Shitty First Draft. And that you have to be
willing to put the initial stuff out to take alook at it and then craft it further. So I've
always thought of writing that as a writer, yourfirst draft is you, the artist making the clay

(54:05):
that you then shape in your subsequent drafts. Sothat's how I think of it. And that's what you're
talking about? Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I edited. You cankeep editing. Editing. Gosh, you could almost
never finish editing a book or of course, piece ofwork if you wanted to. But at some point you got
to call it. And I do think intuition plays a role.

(54:27):
So I worked. He's no longer with us, but I workedfor, I was friends with and worked with for a long
time, a man named Ron Sargent, who invented theporta Potty and he invented the cruise control. He
was an inventor and he was an engineer. And heused to have a saying. He'd say, there comes a
time in the course of every product when you haveto shoot the engineer because the engineer will

(54:50):
keep tugging and playing and pulling forever ifyou don't shoot the engineer and stop them. So
that's sort of what we're talking about right now.
Totally what we're talking about. There's at somepoint you need to go, okay, that's it, good
enough, go. It's done. But you'll feel it again.
Your gut will play it, your instinct will play arole in it. You'll know.
You write in the book, and I'm quoting, fuck fear,do it anyway.

Pia Mailhot-Leichte (55:14):
Absolutely.

Stev (55:15):
Is fear useful in any way?
Definitely. Fear tells us when we're on theprecipice of something big, or, when we're on the
precipice or edge of something that's verymeaningful and requires risk. And if we can see
fear like that, if we can discern it, becausethere's different types of fear, but if we can

(55:36):
discern like, oh, this fear is data. And it'stelling me I'm about to take a risk in the
direction of something that's really meaningful tome and I don't know how it's going to turn out or
what it's going to be m. And I'm scared shitless.
Right. Okay, good, good. Sit with that. It's allright. You know what I mean? Like, we can be. You

(55:57):
can be with that. You're strong. We're strongenough. We can be with the fear, and we can do it
anyway. Okay. All right. That's all right. I'm notgonna. I don't like the word fearless because it
feels like, hey, sometimes I'm fearful. Like, I'mfearful. And, But, that's not gonna stop me. I
don't have to be fearless. I can do it anyway withfear. That's courage.
I think fear sometimes actually spurs you to becreative to solve. Overcoming the fear.

(56:23):
Oh, definitely. There's. I mean, fear and risk areclosely interrelated. Right. And I think with
creative work, there's an element of risk that'sinvolved. You take a risk, and with risk comes a
certain amount, comes fear. Right. and that'ssomething that if we can identify as like, oh,
this means I'm onto something big. I'm m about todo something big, then I think it becomes easier

(56:47):
to work with.
Well, you write also in the book, whatever you do,don't die with your magic inside you. You want to
expand on that a little bit.
Well, what a shame it would be to have this big,beautiful life and all the gifts that we've been
given and not share them with anyone because we'reafraid of how it's going to be received or how

(57:10):
we're going to be perceived or failing or whateverthe fears might be. What a shame that would be.
And everyone, I believe, has magic and medicine toshare with the world that we need badly as.
Especially right now in a time of destruction. Weneed everyone to activate their creative capacity
and their creative power. You know? and so itwould just be a shame not to share that with the

(57:37):
world while you can. And I think death is a. Is areally good reminder or a really good creative
instigator.

Steve Cuden (57:48):
It's a motivator.
It's such a motivator. It's like, hey, you'regonna. We're gonna die. We're all gonna die. And
we all have a hidden expiration date. Ha ha. Noone knows when our numbers are gonna be called. It
could. Anything could happen. So why don't we letthat move us, to make. Create shape, go after the
things that we're burning to do inside? I mean,what do we got to lose when we're gonna lose it

(58:13):
all anyway. Nothing.
It's a little bit like Nike says, just do it.

Pia Mailhot-Leich (58:18):
That's right.
And get at it. Well, I've been having just afantastic, fun, very fascinating conversation for
just shy of an hour now with Pia MayoMailhot-Leichter And we're going to wind the show
down a little bit right now. And I'm wondering,you've worked with lots of people in your career,
you've been to a lot of places, and you've alreadytold us some really great stories from your life,

(58:39):
but I'm wondering if you can share with us astory. Story that's either weird, quirky, offbeat,
strange, or just plain funny.
this is in relationships, too. When I worked atthat agency in London, and it was the financial
crisis, and we were, you know, pitching a lot of.
A lot of clients for business. And there was acompany called, I think it was called Blue Whale

(59:00):
Mail. And they had like, another mail, likeanother Gmail, another mail provider. And we were
pitching for their business and their mascot ortheir, like, brand. Character. Character was a
whale. Obviously, that was their name. And so wehad, one of the creatives, we bought a custom
made, like, we had a whale suit made that he worelike a human, like size whales.

Steve Cuden (59:21):
Yes.
For the pitch meeting. And then we even had like,the sound of like, whales. Whale sounds, you know,
like that we had, like, under the desk when Ipress play, you know, as we shared all the work.
And then I just remember my colleague coming in inthat whale costume. It was really. We won,

(59:46):
actually. We won the. The pitch. But it was, ah,it was, it was pretty far out. It was, it was. It
was funny. It was definitely a moment.

Steve (59:53):
Did he look like a whale?
Yeah, he had like, the full costume. Do you knowwhat I mean? Like the whole. He had like, you
know, those Tyrannosaurus rex, you know, like thewhole suit. He had like a whole whale suit.

Steve Cuden (01:00:05):
And.
And his name was Ed. And Ed was quite tall. So hewas a tall guy. So it's just like this big whale
and whale sounds and a pitch deck. And it was justlike, what we won't do to try to win this client.
and you did?
We did, we did. So that was. That was quite funny.
That's a beautiful thing. All right, so lastquestion for you today, Pia. you've clearly shared

(01:00:29):
with us a really massive amount of advicethroughout this entire show, but I'm wondering, do
you have a single solid piece of advice or a tipthat you like to give to Those who are maybe
starting out in the business or maybe they're in alittle bit trying to get to the next level.
Well, first, I don't know if it's advice. I'mgoing to activate curiosity. I would ask, what is
it that you really want to create and make real inthe world? Like, taking a step back, what about

(01:00:56):
that is important to you? To get really clear onwhat it is and why it has meaning for you and
seeing what you might discover from there. BecauseI think a lot of times, without realizing it at
least myself, can be on past that have kind ofbeen laid out for us or ideas that things we think

(01:01:17):
we should do or things that we think we should dothat will help us become successful or safe. And
it might not always be the thing that we mightreally be called to do. So I guess more than
advice, it would be I would get really curiousabout them or ask them to get curious about
themselves.
I think that that's really very powerful andpositive because, the first step to creating

(01:01:41):
anything is to ask what am I doing and why? And ifyou don't know that, then you're just sort of
fumfering around, not really doing anything. Andthat can be valuable, by the way, that fumpering
around process can lead to things. But until youknow what it is that your goal is, your purpose,
it's storytelling. There has to be a goal atwhatever it is you're doing. And that's what

(01:02:06):
you're talking about, is to determine what thatis. Am I correct?
Yeah, absolutely. What is the adventure thatyou're really after? And is it yours? Is it
something someone told you is a good idea to do?
Or something that you think is what you should do,that we should ourselves to death? Right. or is it
really what you want? And then if it's what youwant, let's say it's storytelling. Oh, get

(01:02:28):
creative. Start getting creative. What are like 20different ways that you could use storytelling in
your life and career?
Yeah, I think that that's very valuable advice. Ithink that is the first step in the whole process
is stepping back and saying, what is it I'm tryingto do? without that, you're not going very far,
very fast, I think.

(01:02:49):
Yeah, I agree. And then when you discover whatthat territory is, there are all these different
ways it can unfold. And that's exciting becauseoftentimes we can get wedded to. It has to look
like what in what has to look like something veryparticular. You know, it's either black or it's
white. When it's all the colors of the rainbow,it's all the shades. It can be so many different

(01:03:10):
things. Once we're clear on what it. What it. Whatit is, I. I think that.
That'S very valuable advice. Pia Mailhot-Leichterthis has just been a fantastic hour on Story Beat,
and I cannot thank you enough for your time, yourenergy, and particularly for all of your wishes. I
thank you for spending some time with us today.
Thank you so much for having me on, Steve. It'sbeen wonderful.

(01:03:31):
And so we've come to the end of today's StoryBeat. If you like this episode, won't you please
take a moment to give us a comment, rating, orreview on whatever app or platform you're
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(01:03:54):
iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until nexttime, I'm Steve Cuden and may all your stories be
unforgettable.