March 31, 2026 • 50 mins
Thomas Cullen is a federal trial judge and former U.S. attorney in Virginia. He was recently honored as the 2024 Carter O. Lowance Fellow from the William & Mary Law School, which is his alma mater.
A native of Richmond, Virginia, Thomas studied history and ran track at Furman University in Greenville, South Carolina, from which he was recently awarded an honorary doctorate.
Thomas is also an accomplished writer. For more than ten years, he regularly published op-eds and essays in national and regional media outlets until his appointment to the bench made publishing further such articles prohibitive.
However, he didn’t stop writing. In 2025, he published his first novel, Charlie-Man, which I’ve read and can tell you is a beautifully written, fictional coming-of-age story that reads like a powerful, heartfelt memoir. Charlie-Man is for readers of all ages, from teens on up. It will have a strong resonance for anyone who has ever struggled with love and loss throughout their teenage years.
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Steve Cud (00:00):
On today's Story Beat
(00:02):
To the aspiring writer who has always wanted togive it a try. I would just strongly encourage you
to try it. Right. It's going to be difficultwriting that first chapter. That first paragraph
is incredibly difficult. But I think you will findthat if you accomplish that and take it a step at
a time, it comes together.
This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden. A podcast forthe creative mind. Storybeat explores how masters
(00:28):
of creativity develop and produce brilliant worksthat people everywhere love and admire. So join us
as we discover how talented creators find successin the worlds of imagination and entertainment.
Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.
(00:51):
Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We're comingto you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania. My guest today, Thomas Cullen, is afederal trial judge and former U.S. attorney in
Virginia. He was recently honored as the 2024Carter O. Lowens Fellow from the William and Mary
Law School, which is his alma mater. A native ofRichmond, Virginia, Thomas studied history and ran
(01:14):
track at Furman University in Greenville, SouthCarolina, from which he was recently awarded an
honorary doctorate. Thomas is also an accomplishedwriter. For more than 10 years, he regularly
published op eds and essays in national andregional media outlets until his appointment to
the bench made publishing further such articlesprohibitive. However, he didn't stop writing. In
(01:36):
2025, he published his first novel, Charlie Mann,which I've read and can tell you is a beautifully
written, fictional coming of age story that readslike a powerful, heartfelt memoir. Charlie Mann is
for readers of all ages, from teens on up. It willhave strong resonance for anyone who's ever
struggled with love and loss throughout theirteenage years. So for all those reasons and many
(02:00):
more, I'm truly privileged to welcome therespected jurist and brilliant writer Thomas
Cullen to Story Beat today. Thomas, welcome to theshow.
Thanks for having me, Steve. It's a pleasure to behere.
Well, it's my great privilege. Um, so let's goback in time just a little bit. At what point in
your life, how young were you when, when you firstbecame interested in books and storytelling?
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So, um, I was privileged to have a mom who read tome as a child, uh, and I remember vividly being
age 4, 5, 6, 7, sitting with, um, my two sisters.
Also have a little brother who wasn't born yet. Wewould sit in her bedroom every night and, uh, she
would read to us. I was never, uh, a great studentuntil later in life, but I always was an avid
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reader. I love books and I think because I was anavid reader, I became an inable writer. And
fortunately I was able to use those skills in thepractice of law and in my professional career.
And how did you use those skills in the practiceof law?
A lot of folks don't know that most lawyers andlawyers generally do a lot of writing. A lot of it
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is not very good writing and not something thatanyone wants to read. But effective lawyers are
skilled writers. A big part of being, uh, anadvocate is written, uh, advocacy. I felt like by
the time I became a practicing lawyer, I was adecent writer. Through the practice of law over
the last 20 plus years, uh, I've honed thoseskills and, uh, improved those skills. We always
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improve, uh, as writers. And that's something thathas been important, uh, in my career from start to
the current day.
So I've had the, I don't know, you'd say goodfortune or poor fortune to have dealt with a lot
of lawyers in my life, including members of myfamily. But also in my own personal life, I've
dealt with lots of lawyers. And one of the thingsI've noticed about lawyers is they're very good at
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telling stories. Not necessarily fictionalstories, but they're storytellers. Is that
something that you find to be true with most good,especially trial lawyers?
No, absolutely. Particularly for trial lawyers.
Right.
You have to establish a narrative. What is thiscase about? Um, to interest, uh, a jury, uh, to
interest a judge, to put things in layman's termsand uh, capture and hold, uh, an audience's
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attention. So whether you're doing that standingin the well of a courtroom or, um, through a
brief, that's always the goal. And it should be inthe back of your mind, uh, when you're kind of
marshaling the facts and coming up with anarrative and making an argument
and coming from the beginning of a story to themiddle of a story to the end of a story in a trial
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sense is very important, just like it is in anovel.
Absolutely. It's critical. You have to, uh, staywith the script. Right. And try, um, not to
deviate and um, make the points that you need tomake and make them effectively.
So you've also always then been a reader offiction?
Yes, yes. Um, fiction and nonfiction. Uh, I'llread anything you put in front of of me. I think
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my worst nightmare would be to be stuck in a roomwithout something to read.
Well, that's that old cliche. If you were going tobe stuck on a deserted island, what book would you
like to have with you?
You know, Absolutely.
What writers did you admire as a kid and who doyou admire now?
Sure. Um, so as a kid, um, coming up, in terms offiction, I loved Ernest Hemingway. Uh, read almost
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everything, uh, he wrote. Robert Penn Warren's allthe King's Men is probably my favorite novel. Um,
I loved Catcher in the Rye. Um, in terms offiction, um, those are probably my favorites. But
I'm an avid reader of nonfiction and biography.
Uh, I'm a big Winston Churchill fan. I've probablyread every biography, uh, including William
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Manchester trilogy, on Winston Churchill. WinstonChurchill was himself a great writer, and that's
something I've always admired about.
Winston Churchill is one of the most brilliantwriters who's ever lived, no question. Um, and you
mentioned Catcher in the Rye. It's interesting.
Just this afternoon, as I was reviewing my notesfor tonight, uh, I thought to myself, your book is
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somewhat reminiscent of Catcher in the Rye. It hasthat quality to it.
Well, I appreciate that. That's a compliment. J.D.
salinger. I mean, that was a watershed work in theearly 1950s, and it has lasting resonance and
importance today. But most folks don't know thisabout me. Before I was a, uh, practicing lawyer,
before I went to law school, I taught 10th gradeEng.
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Oh, really?
At an all boys, ah, prep school in Virginia. AndCatcher and Her Eye was part of the syllabus that
year. And I had four different sections and got toread it four or five times and teach the novel.
And it was, it was great fun.
Well, that's. I think it shows in your work.
That's what I really noticed. It has that tone andtenor. And we'll talk more about that in a few
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minutes. Um, when did you start to write? How oldwere you? When you begin to seriously think about
writing.
So I had, um, great teachers along the way. Uh, Iwas privileged to attend a school that emphasized
writing and good writing and teaching the basicsin terms of grammar and style and usage, from
diagramming sentences to constructing, um, essays,uh, and the like. So I had an interest in writing
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early on, carried through college, where I workedfor the college newspaper, um, wrote, uh, op EDS
and essays. And then even as a practicing lawyer,in addition to writing briefs and the like, I
would regularly write op EDS for various newsoutlets on legal topics, political topics, and the
like. And then when I became a judge, I could nolonger opine on current events and politics and
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those sorts of things. So I had to find a newoutlet.
So, so were. Did you take writing classes inschool before you ever thought about the law?
I never took. I mean, I took. I went to a liberalarts college, so I took, ah, English and
communications and history. Did a lot of writingin my spare time, but, you know, didn't specialize
in creative writing or anything like that.
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So your training is just by having written a lot?
Correct, Just writing a lot, um, as a student,writing a lot as a lawyer, and writing every day
as a judge.
Well, I bet you do write every day a lot as ajudge. And you, you probably read a whole lot too.
I do. Uh, and not all of it's good.
Well, I do know for fact certain that as ascreenwriter, I've taught screenwriting for almost
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15 years. And one of the things that I teach in myclasses is if you ever, as a student, if you ever
want to see how not to write dialogue, just read adeposition.
I think that's probably very true.
Well, because, uh, the stenographer is capturingall the ums and ers and stops and starts and it
makes no sense half the time. I mean, you read it,it doesn't have any dramatic drive at all.
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Right. Now as a lawyer, you think you were soeloquent until you read the transcript.
I'm sure that's exactly right. So for you, whatmakes a good story good?
So, you know, it's in the eye of the beholder. Um,but I think, and I teach law students this when I
speak to them, you have to establish, uh, anarrative and grab the reader right from the
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outset. And in legal writing, right, so we'retalking about mundane business disputes and
accidents and medical malpractice cases. You haveto find the story within the dense and dull
subject matter. And, uh, I think good writers, uh,who are lawyers can do that effectively. It takes
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patience, it takes ingenuity, it takes creativity,and it takes a lot of time and work. But there's
always a story in something and you have to findthe story, establish the story and carry it
through.
Absolutely. I also imagine that in your time asboth a lawyer and a judge, you've met and dealt
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with lots of, I'm putting air quotes upcharacters, uh, in your life.
No question.
Are you able to use those observations in yourwriting?
Um, I probably do. In terms of the novel Charlieman that I wrote, certainly folks that I
encountered along the way as a young man during myformative years played a significant role in the
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characters, uh, in the particular, particularnovel. I've yet to write a book about being a
lawyer and some of the folks I've encounteredalong the way as a prosecutor and a defense
attorney, I may very well do that at some point.
And certainly if I Did I would likely draw on someof the characters that I've had the good fortune
to be around.
(10:53):
I have no doubt you've seen many. Um, Are you afan of John Grisham and uh, Tarot?
No, absolutely. I was a fan of John Grisham. Uh,the Firm, I think was the blockbuster that came
out, uh, even before For Time to Kill. Time toKill, I think was his first novel, wasn't a
commercial success. The Firm put him on the map. Iread them all early and probably read every,
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everything he's written. He is a Virginian, youknow, he's Mississippian native. But he, uh, makes
his home outside of Charlottesville, Virginia, sowe claim him as our own.
You may as well. Uh, so I think that you probablywould write some really excellent legal thrillers.
I think that's what you should think about.
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Well, I'll have to give it some thought. If I havesome time, maybe we can, we can make that happen.
Well, there you go. Let's talk about Charlie Mannfor a bit. Tell the listeners, uh, more about what
Charlie Mann is about.
Sure. So Charlie Mann is a, uh, coming of agenovel. Uh, it's set, ah, in a unique place.
Richmond, Virginia, where I was born and raised,um, at that time a sleepier southern city. It's
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now a major metropolitan area in a progressivesouthern city. It was less so in the, uh, early to
mid-1990s when, when I was in high school. Butit's set in a unique time. So it's uh, circa 1994,
1995. And this is the pre Internet, pre socialmedia, pre cell phone age. But that said, it deals
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with a teenage protagonist who was dealing with,uh, things that are timeless in terms of
challenges, um, things that, uh, young folks havefaced as long as humans have walked the face of
the earth in terms of loss of a parent, anxiety,fraught friendships, uh, first loves and the like.
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So it deals with all of those timeless challengesand themes, but in a unique place at a unique
time. Uh, before kids were wedded to their phonesand actually talked face to face and had, uh,
lengthy conversations.
Well, the old, uh, writing cliche is write whatyou know, which I always say is not necessarily
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from your life, it's just what you know in yourheart to be true or from your research. Um, in
this case, you are. You wrote a story that takesplace among teenagers from a, from a period of
time when you were a teenager. So how did you goback and relate to all that? Did you take notes
back in the day? Did you keep journals?
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I Didn't, uh, I was going all vivid memory, uh,for the most part, for a long time. Thought one,
one day I would. I would take a stab at writing anovel. And I knew how the first chapter would go,
but I didn't know much beyond that. Um, and the,the project kind of came about, um, after several
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conversations with my wife. I had written an essayon fly fishing in the winter with my golden
retriever. And I had such a ball doing that. Andshe just said, you know, you ought to try to
write, write a novel. And, uh, I kind of laughedit off and thought about it for a week. And then
one evening I said, you know what? I'm going totry to start that first chapter. I've thought long
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and hard about. I did. And, uh, it just started toflow.
So why do that now? Why did you decide to. Whathappened in your life that's now as opposed to
five years ago or five years from now?
So, uh, you know, that's a great question, and I'mnot sure what the answer is. I guess at some point
you, you come to the realization you're notgetting any younger. Right? That's for sure. You
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know, memories fade and, um, as you get older, youhave less energy in industry that may have when
you're a little bit younger. And I just felt likethis was a good time. And I was in, uh, a station
in life where I was able to spend time early inthe morning before court and on the weekends to
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devote to the project. And I just decided to makea go of it.
Is that when you write early in the morning?
Yeah, I do my best work probably first thing inthe morning. Um, I'm an early riser. And, uh,
after having coffee and, uh, getting ready for theday, um, I have. I think probably I'm a little
more focused than I am later in the day and in theevening. And, uh, I've found over the course of my
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career as a student and as a lawyer that I do mybest work early rather than later.
And how much time could you typically devote towriting in the morning?
So it just, it depended on the day. Um, usually Iwould have an hour and a half to two hours before
I had to turn to other things. You know, sometimesif, uh, cases settled or, uh, trials went away, I
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would have an hour during the day to turn back toit, and then would spend a lot of time on
Saturdays and over the weekend, um, working on it.
You know, going into it, I had no idea, uh, howlong it would take. But I found once I Started. I
uh, enjoyed it so much that things just kind offlowed and I was able to put together the
manuscript in about three months now. That said, Ispent you know, a year editing, rewriting with the
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help of really talented publisher. At least thefirst draft just kind of came out.
Well, the, the, I've always said to people thatthe craft of writing is that first draft and then
the art of writing and storytelling is therevisions.
No question. Uh, I learned early on in my careeras a lawyer that, that the editing is uh,
oftentimes more important than the writing.
Oh. Inevitably, because that first draft isusually not very good. Uh, I don't know if you
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ever read um, now uh, I'm forgetting her name.
It's Annie. Um, well anyway, the book is calledBird by Bird. Have you ever read. No, I'm m trying
to remember Annie's last name and I'll think of itin a second. But uh, she has a. It's all about
being a writer and writing and she has an entirechapter called Shitty first draft.
It's true, it's true.
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It really is. Uh, and Annie Lamott is her name. Iknew I'd think of it in a second. I highly
recommend it. It's an outstanding book aboutwriting and being a writer. Um, so where did you
begin in this process? Did it begin withcharacters or with plot?
So I think it began with characters. I knew, um,who the protagonist was, I knew who his best
friend was. I knew he would have a girlfriend. Uh,I knew that there were uh, important influences on
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his life in terms of teachers, coaches, uh, astrong personality, mother. Um, so it was
character driven. And then the plot kind of tookshape from there. Um, it's interesting you're a
screenwriter. The most daunting part for me, andthe thing I was most worried about was dialogue.
As a lawyer you don't write dialogue. And uh, thatwas the one aspect I wasn't sure I could pull that
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off. And as I got into it I just found myself inthe shoes of these characters as an 18 year old
boy. Just imagine how would you uh, have ah, putthat. What would you have said? What's the wise
ass comeback, right, that you would have used inthat particular situation? And I just had a ball
doing that. So it ended up, you know, the dialoguewasn't nearly. I mean it was still challenging
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but, but I thought I was able to pull it off inthe end.
It was freeing for you because it wasn't your dayjob and it wasn't what you normally write.
Right? That's exactly right. So. So that. So thatwas an important piece. And then, you know, I'm
sometimes asked, are you, uh, know regimen by anoutline or suit of your pants type writer? And I'm
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probably a little bit of a hybrid. So I didn'thave a clear sense of how the plot would develop,
um, when I started. But as the book progressed, Istarted to anticipate and think about twists and
turns and as ideas would come to me. A lot oftimes when I try to run every day on the trails,
uh, in the mountains here outside of my home, Iwould get back from a run and take out a piece of
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scratch paper and kind of map out the next coupleof chapters.
You were thinking steps ahead. You weren'tconfronting each chapter fresh like you had no
idea you were actually thinking ahead.
I was, yes.
I talked to plenty of writers on this show that doeither or both. Um, most writers are outliners,
but there are quite a few who just go at it. Idon't know how you do it. I'm an outliner, so I
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need to know where I'm going before I sit down towrite. It's just the way it works for me. What do
you think it is about Charlie that hooks you rightin?
So I, you know, I think, um, Charlie as acharacter, hopefully folks can relate to someone,
uh, in terms of being a mediocre student, but. Butsomeone who's, uh, I think wise and maybe wise
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beyond his years. He's, he's empathetic, he's gota wry sense of humor. Um, he. He takes setbacks in
stride. Uh, he deals with a lot of crap, but. Butat the end of the day, I think he shows a certain
res and uh, the ability to persevere. So hopefullythe reader can identify with having these
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challenges, but facing challenges with aplomb andkeeping your head up and continuing to move
forward.
So you have some terrific themes throughout thisbook. Uh, and they really do relate to teenagers
in particular, though I think to everyone ingeneral. You have competition and bullying and
abuse and, um, ambition to forge ahead in yourlife. Certainly love lost and heartache and
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brotherliness. That gets all messy, especiallybetween your two protagonists, more or less, um,
and betrayals and growing up. Was this somethingthat you've thought about for a long time or did
it just flow out of you as you were working?
So I think it flowed out as I was working. And Ithink subconsciously, um, you know, you're aware
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of what are you trying to accomplish here? Right?
What, what is the implicit message right what doyou want the reader to take away from, you know,
this particular situation and how he handleshimself? Um, so I think that's an important
aspect.
Are you able to say what that is without givinganything away?
So I think I'd be lying if I said it was overlyintentional, uh, on my part. But at the same time,
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I mean, it's false, right? Going to a prep schooland all the baggage that comes through that
experience, and every experience is different, andthey have their positives and their negatives, and
there's certainly a lot of negatives. With growingup and kind of a privileged environment and going
to a school like that, it does teach you certainthings. Right? And I was fortunate to have
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teachers, uh, and coaches and friends who, um,through struggles and challenges, really, really
taught me to, you know, you've got to moveforward. You got to keep your head up. Life is.
Life is tough, you know, suck it up and, uh, uh,make the best of it.
Well, I'm one of those people that found being ateenager very difficult. It was not fun for me. I
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didn't. I couldn't wait to be an adult. And, uh,as I look back, I think, how did I get through
that? But you do. You kind of like you're livingone step every day, and you. You learn from it.
And I think that that is how we mature and becomepeople.
And. No question. And, um, you know, the currentgeneration and I have two teenage children, right.
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Uh, it's different. And one of the things I worryabout, Steve, is is this generation, are these
kids, uh, equipped to deal with life. Right. Arethey as resilient, uh, as prior generations?
Well, I think the thing that, uh, has altered itinextricably with all the challenges is the cell
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phone and computers and all these screens. I thinkthis has changed our humanity in a huge way. Don't
you agree?
And, uh, there's no question in terms of shortenedattention spans and how people socialize with each
other. One could argue it's just not a normal wayto go through life.
Well, Charlie Mann is a good example of how itwas. I'm not sure you'd write a novel the same way
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today. About today.
Uh, there's no question. And I couldn't do itbecause I don't, um, fully understand.
Well, I think that's part of the problem is Ithink very few people understand it. I think even
the people that are young and in it don'tunderstand it.
I think that's very true.
And it'll probably be a generation or two whenpeople look back and finally break it down and
figure it out. And so that's what's almostrelieving about reading Charlie Mann is that it
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takes you back to a, uh, for lack of a bettercliche, a, uh, gentler, kinder time. Even though
the characters in this book are. Go through hell.
Yes. No question. Right. It's got its positivesand its negatives. I think one of the positives is
that we related to each other a little bitdifferently.
So you wrote this. As I said in the intro, itfeels like memoir, even though it isn't. I assume
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that there's a degree of autobiographical stuff inhere, but it's not. Not an autobiography. Correct.
It's not an autobiography. Right. I mean, I grewup in that. In that city at that time. Um, I think
several of the characters are familiar to theauthor. Um, there are no dead ringers. There are
composites of people that I knew. Uh, I have a lotof friends in Richmond, Virginia, who I grew up
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with, and folks who were teachers of mine and knewme back then, and they love to try to guess who
some of these characters are. And, you know, and Iwon't admit to anything because I don't want to be
sued, uh, in the novel. And, uh, there are no deadringers.
Well, okay, so I don't want. Not going to try topry legal advice out of you, but could you be sued
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as a novelist for writing characters that arebased on people you know?
No, I don't think so. Fiction is fiction. Insofaras you're holding the book out as a work of art or
work of fiction, by and large, I think you'reprotected in terms of. Hopefully that's the case.
Well, even. I mean, authors write Romana clefs,which are very much closely related to real
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characters. And I guess as long as they're in thepublic domain, the characters in the public
domain, then you're okay. But I think you'reextraordinarily good at setting tone. I mentioned
that earlier on. I'm just curious, is thereanything that you did intentionally to set the
tone of the book?
I don't know that it was intentional. I was tryingto, um, be authentic. Right. In terms of my voice
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and, um, the characters is, you know, I recalledthem. So to say that, you know, I set out to do
that. I think I'd be lying to claim it.
Where did the emotions in the book come from? Imean, are you an emotional person, or is this.
My wife would say I am not an emotional person.
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You know, I can Be emotional. You know, in termswhen you have children, it's hard not to be, uh,
emotional. I think you get more sentimental as youget older. Um, but given the nature of my job and
most of the work I've done over the course of mycareer, you can't be overly emotional. So I think
this was cathartic.
Right.
In some respects, this was. You can get out ofthat world and recollect and reminisce, you know,
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be a little more unguarded.
Uh, again, it's a freeing thing for you becauseof, of the type of job you do.
No question. And, and I was heavily invested init. I mean, I found Steve when I finished the
first draft, for several days. I was sad. I missedthose characters and kind of being part, uh, of
their life. I mean, I was reliving to a certainextent, being that age and, uh, having those
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experiences. And that was a cool thing for me.
Well, have you thought about writing a sequel toit? Where, where would Charlie Mann be today?
Yeah, that, that's a great question. I, I, I don'tknow. There's a possibility maybe there's a
sequel, uh, at some point, or, uh, maybe somethingentirely different. Charlie, you know, I think we
leave him, and he's in a pretty good spot. He'sbeen through a lot, but he's got a, a long life to
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live. So who knows?
Well, because he, we won't give anything away, buthe faces both life and death in the show. It's in
the show, in the book. And, uh, for sure he has tocontend with a lot of things. I found some of the
scenes, um, uh, difficult to read, especially thestable scenes. Those were challenging. Um, did you
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experience anything like that as a kid, where youhad people and violence and that kind of thing?
I think the way I answer that, that particularscene is probably more familiar to the author, um,
than perhaps some of the others. Um, and Iprobably should leave it at that.
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Well, that's good. Yeah, you should leave it atthat.
That was probably a little more, um, memoir thansome of the other parts of the book.
Well, I think that's, um, powerful stuff is whatit is. And I think that that bleeds through in
there, that it's that powerful to you, the author.
So where did Charlie come from? Um, he was afootball and track star. You were a runner?
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I was a runner. Um, I played football through jv,but I was a terrible football player. I weighed
about 140 pounds. Used to get the crap kicked outof me.
What position?
So I, uh, JV I played tight end and uh, defensiveback. I was a pretty good blocker as a tight end.
Just a gangly, you know, I was probablyfive'11,140 pounds. I could hold the line, but I
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was a pretty, pretty poor tackler.
Well, at 140 pounds, what kind of a defensive packare you going to be?
Not much of one. Not much of one. To the extent Ihave any athletic ability, it was as a runner.
And you have this marvelous, um, three partrelationship in the story between Charlie and Beau
and Katie. And that's, I think that's. I neverwent through anything like that in my life. So I
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found it interesting to read. I think that peoplewho have been through that, and I won't give that
away either, um, that people have been throughwhere there are three people involved that it can
be very, very challenging.
No question. Particularly if you're 18 years old.
Right.
Particularly if you're 18 years old. I think,listen, I don't think it's easy when you're 50
(29:23):
either, but at 18, yeah, that's really tricky. Didyou use any particular techniques from any kind
of, um, books or advice from anyone regarding howto create the characters, how to put them together
and make them three dimensional?
I didn't, um, and maybe I should have, but thiswas, you know, I just kind of started and the
(29:46):
characters developed organically, um, certainlythrough the uh, editing process with input from my
publisher and copy editor. They helped me refineand build and challenge certain aspects and
improved uh, the characters probablysignificantly. But in terms of kind of formulaic,
(30:09):
this is how you do it. No, I didn't do that.
You got notes from people on this?
Yes.
Um, and did you have a specific editor that youworked with?
I did.
So.
Um, my publisher, Brandy Lane. I was fortunategoing into this project. I mean I had no idea how
this worked. Right. And how unique this industryis and just how difficult it is. Right. To get a
(30:31):
book published. I was very naive. I mean I feellike as a judge and established lawyer, I know a
lot about a lot of things. I didn't know anythingabout this, but I was fortunate early on in the
process to find a publisher that was based inVirginia. I think part of the reason they were
interested in the book to begin with is becausethis is a judge writing, uh, a young adult novel
(30:56):
and that's worse worth, you know, our time to atleast give it a read. So they agreed to, to read
it and we were able to, to figure out, you know,arrangement to, to publish it. They were just
fantastic. I was really, really impressed from asmall indie publisher, um, the amount of support
in terms of getting the manuscript polished andready to go and then through the publication
(31:20):
process and everything that follows.
Well, you, you know, as I say, I've been doingthis show for a long time and I've had a number of
lawyers on the show, uh, but I've never had ajudge on the show. So that says something about
the fact that you are unusual in that you wrote anovel while on the bench.
Yes.
(31:40):
What did you do, do you think, to avoid thecharacters feeling stereotyped? Because they do
not. They feel very rich.
That's a great question, and I'm not sure what theanswer is. Um, you know, I was just trying to
create authenticity. Characters that were, youknow, close in terms of disposition, uh, and the
(32:02):
way they go about life, uh, to the folks that,that I encountered along the way. You know, you
can stereotype anything, and I'm sure you canstereotype some of these characters. But to the
extent you think that I did a decent job trying toavoid major stereotypes, I will take that as a
compliment.
Well, it's very easy for people to think, I love Xbook. I like Catcher in the Rye. I'll just write a
(32:25):
book that's like Catcher in the Rye. And thatimitation always comes off to me as three, as two
dimensional or cardboard. It doesn't feel real.
And so what you did, I think, felt very authentic.
In fact, part of the authenticism of it, orauthenticity, I think is the right word. It would
be that you have this story that takes place inyour hometown, where you grew up. Up and at an age
(32:48):
that you experience certain things. And so that'spart of the authenticity of it. Did you need to do
any further research? Did you have to go back intothe archives or library or anything to research
things?
I really didn't. Um, and I've been asked that. Didyou go back to the dam and the river and where you
used to hang out? And, uh, I didn't, because youcan't. They've now built houses and it's changed
(33:12):
so much. M. Naturally, in 30, 35 years. So I getarrested for trespassing if I attempted that
today.
Even the neighborhood, which is very vividly drawnin the book, that's gone too.
You know, the neighborhood is there. This is in,um. So the novel is essentially set in what's
called the near West End, Richmond, which is kindof the old established part of Richmond
(33:34):
neighborhoods. The big elm trees and oak trees andpoplar trees, uh, the colonial Type houses, uh,
the serpentine walls and the like. So a lot ofthat is still there. Where part of the book is set
on the river, this old house and a bluff,undeveloped land, a lot around that has now been
(33:56):
developed.
And that's sort of old Richmond, isn't it?
That's old Richmond.
It doesn't go back to the Civil War, does it? Ordoes it go back that far?
The city itself?
No, this neighborhood, the houses?
Uh, no, the neighborhood would be post Civil War,uh, turn of the 20th century.
Got it, got it. And where does St. Mark'sEpiscopal School come from? Is that based on a
(34:17):
real school?
Yes, so it's loosely based on a real school. Iactually attended a co Ed School. St. Mark's in
the book is an all boys school. And um, I thinkreaders who are familiar with Richmond would uh,
quickly identify which particular all boys schoolthat was a rival of my school that it's loosely
based on.
All right, so what do you think, uh, the biggestchallenges you faced in writing the book was? Was
(34:41):
it time? Was it development? What do you think thebiggest challenge was for you?
So I think going in, as I said, dialogue was asignificant challenge. Carving out time was always
a challenge. And then until I was able to get apublisher, just figuring out how I was going to
get this project completed and out into the world,uh, which I think is a great challenge for most
(35:02):
writers who want to, to accomplish something likethat.
So you clearly secured a book deal. I think wealluded to the fact that you are a judge and that
was probably intriguing in part to the publishers.
But what do you think writers, uh, should do inorder to get a publisher or attract a publisher?
(35:23):
What do you, from your experience here, what doyou think is important?
Being willing to kind of think outside the box.
Right. There are scores of reputable indiepublishers, small publishers that are all over the
United States and all over the world. Um, youknow, it's very difficult, number one to find an
(35:44):
agent, number two, to get one of the big fourpublishers to pick up your novel. One of the
things I learned through this process is, youknow, the whole market for fiction is just changed
and the days of advances and royalties and all ofthose things. Things, or unless you're John
Grisham and you know, One of the 20 bestsellingauthors, uh, regularly, you're not going to be
(36:08):
able to go that route. Particularly as aunpublished, uh, first time novelist. It's almost
impossible. You have to have a track record, youhave to have a social media platform. They got to
be Able to market you.
And you can't have a social media platform. Right.
And I can't. Right. Given, given what I do. And,and that was one of the challenges in marketing
this. I mean, I can't put out content and, uh,plug things and plug myself. Uh, I just can't
(36:35):
ethically as a judge. So that was a challenge. SoI think, um, authors, uh, aspiring authors need to
be willing to think outside the box and try anindie publisher. Think about, I don't know, self
publishing works for everyone. But, but, um,insofar as that is a viable, uh, option for folks,
(36:56):
they ought to consider it. At the end of the day,if you have a good book and you want to share it,
um, you got to be willing to do what it takes toget it out there.
That's correct. And the market is saturated withbooks at this point. And there are, I can't
remember what the number is. It's 70, 80, 90,000books a year are published. And it's very
difficult to break through and get people to payattention to. Just like the podcast. Podcasting is
(37:20):
the same thing. There are 5 million podcasts,literally 5 million and everybody. And so you have
to figure out how to break through that too. Um,I'm curious. In both your professional life and
your writing life, you have had to deal with somekind of pressures. I assume that the pressures as
a trial lawyer and then a judge, there aredifferent kinds of pressures. Is there anything
(37:43):
you do creatively to tamp down pressure in yourlife or to deal with pressure?
Look to my creative juices to, uh, tamp downpressure necessarily. It's interesting. I spoke to
some law students earlier this week and I had asimilar point. How do you deal with the pressure
of high profile cases? And my answer to them inthat context, I think it's true. Um, for writing
(38:07):
or really anything else, is that hard, uh, workand preparation go a long way. Um, and I, you
know, I don't claim to be brilliant, I'm not. Um,but I've always, in terms of the work that I
enjoy, uh, I put in the time and the effort and Idon't take things for granted. And, uh, I think
there's a lot to be said for that.
(38:28):
Well, I think it has to show because you're fulltime on a difficult job and you then publish a
novel, you must be a very hard worker. You aren'tsitting around twiddling your thumbs, that's for
sure.
I like to stay busy.
Well, that's a good thing. I want to talk for amoment about writing articles, which you did for a
long time. So you've published op EDS and essays.
(38:50):
How do you think that doing that impacted thediscipline required to write the novel?
So, um, it's a different genre, right? Differentstyle, a, ah, different purpose. But it requires
the same type of discipline. And ultimately, youknow, one of the things I, to the extent I pride
myself on anything, is that I try to be consistentin my writing. Whether I'm writing an opinion or
(39:17):
writing an op ed or writing, um, this particularnovel, uh, I want the writing to be accessible,
right? So when I'm writing opinions, the lastthing I want is it to be larded up with legalese
and, you know, just to be boring and dull anduninteresting. It's really important for me to try
(39:39):
to craft prose in a way that um, is just clear andsimple and concise and really grabs the reader.
Well, if you write legal opinions the way that youwrote this book, then it's absolutely plain and
clear. Uh, but I've never read any of youropinions, so I don't know whether that's true or
not. I imagine that you probably, um, struggle.
(40:02):
Not. Struggle is not the right word. But don'tcare for writer. Or uh, lawyers that come in and
do gussy it all up with legalese. Probably makesyou a little crazy, I bet.
No, it does. Fortunately, most of the lawyers thatpractice for me on a regular basis are pretty
decent writers and their work product is fine. Uh,but that's not always the case. And um, I'll tell
(40:27):
you this, as a judge, when you have someone whoputs together a really polished brief and it comes
in under 15 pages, the opposition is 45 or 50,you've gone a long way to, uh, bring the judge
around to your side.
Oh, all you lawyers out there, pay attention.
(40:48):
Brevity is the soul of wit, as they say.
Absolutely, absolutely. And, and it's harder,right? As a judge, it's harder to write the 10
page opinion than it is to go on through 35 orpages.
What's the famous Lincoln quote about? Uh, I'msorry, this letter is so long I didn't have time
or I would have made it shorter.
Absolutely. It's so true.
I mean that really is a great way to think aboutit. Um, do you prefer writing now that you've been
(41:15):
through it? Do you have a preference whether youwould rather write short stories or articles as
opposed to the long form?
I really enjoyed the long form. You know, it's,it's all consuming.
Right.
So it's not something I can do all the time anddevote my, my energy to, but I enjoy the, the kind
of. The essay format I, I always have. Uh, I thinkif I wasn't a, a lawyer and a judge, I would, you
(41:39):
know, just hold forth and, and write op eds, 900words on whatever the heck I want and, uh, make my
point and make people laugh. I think that would bea fun way to make a living.
So how do you stay disciplined when perhaps youdon't feel like it?
Gosh, that's a good question. I'm, um, human likeeveryone else. I just think, you know, you just
(42:02):
have a conscience and guilt. You know, you justgot to get to work. Right? You got to get
something accomplished. I've always been kind of alist person.
Right.
You go in, uh, start of the day, I've got a.
Accomplish four things today. And you startworking and you're able to check things off the
list and you feel better about yourself havingdone that.
(42:23):
Oh, there's no question. You know, one of thethings that we teach, and I know that it's
difficult because as a human, you don't alwayswant to work. There are distractions in your life
and other things. But one of the things that weteach is that a professional, and it would be a
professional at anything, let alone writing, but aprofessional at does the work even when they don't
(42:44):
feel like doing it.
No, no question. You know, And Steve, here'swhat's interesting. Ah. Uh, I've heard several
people say this, and it's so true with respect towriting. Good writers hate, you know, hate to
write. Right. They, they dread the prospect ofhaving to sit down and write because they know it
is so difficult and they have such high standards,um, for, you know, what needs to be to, um, come
(43:11):
out when they're at their computer. So I fall inthat category m myself sometimes when I have a big
writing project ahead of me, uh, I have troublesleeping the night before because I know what it
takes to, um, turn that around.
So, to me, there's always been two kinds ofwriters. Those that love to write and those that
love to have written. I'm in the latter category.
(43:33):
I love to have written. The writing part of it isalways challenging.
It is always challenging. If it's not challenging,it's probably not very good.
That's true, I think. Although you can point outcertain writers of just prolific natures, like
Stephen King, um, where, you know that he loves itso much he just bangs away.
(43:57):
Yes. He would probably be the exception.
One of the exceptions. Exceptions? Well, NeilSimon would have been an exception to churn out
massive amounts of material. Um, how do yourefresh your creative?
Well, what do you do? So, um, you know, I do lotsof different things. I love the outdoors, and I
have a cabin high up in the mountains in Virginia.
I take my golden retriever go fly fishing with himas often as I can. I'm out every day, exercising,
(44:22):
running on the trails, just spending timeoutdoors, spending time with my family. I've
always been a big believer, uh, in leaving yourwork at work and, uh, stepping away from that and,
uh, just enjoying, um, downtime. And I think thatthat's really important, just having that balance
(44:43):
in other outlets. Uh, so that's a big part of itfor me.
You obviously are very good at compartmentalizingthings. You must be. But I'm curious. As you're
writing your novel, you're also in your headthinking about what's happening at work and the
various, uh, trials that are coming up and thatyou're writing opinions on and so on. Is there
(45:04):
something that you are able to do where you canmake that switch and not have them bleed into each
other?
Yeah, so they're that different. And I had to becognizant of. Okay, I've got this coming up, so I
probably need to set Charlie Mann aside for acouple of days and really be all in on, uh, um,
what's coming down the pike.
And are you able. Is it easy for you to do thatwhere you can just shut it off?
(45:27):
It was. Although, as you know, I got more, uh,involved and invested in the novel, I kept having
to tell, uh, myself, you can't go back to that.
Right now. You've got a day job, and you need toget these other things done first.
You know, when you're in the entertainmentindustry, um, and sometimes, I'm sure for other
novelists that are constantly writing novels, uh,you're handling multiple assignments at one time,
(45:51):
just like you're handling multiple trials at onetime, I assume. Uh, and so you're. So that ability
to compartmentalize becomes super important, or Ithink it would make you crazy.
No, you have to be able to compartmentalize andkeep things in silos and go from one to the other.
And when you're focused on the one to be. Becompletely focused on that.
(46:11):
And, And I'm based on this conversation, myassumption is, is that when you got to the novel
part of the. The day, that was like, joy. And someof the trial stuff is just hard.
It's Just work for the most part. I think thatthat was true. Um, although some of the trials and
the cases are. Are fun and interesting, not all ofthem are. It's a job like anything else.
(46:33):
I'm sure that you do some really fascinatingstuff, and it must be very interesting.
Interesting, uh, especially as a federal trialjudge. That's other stuff than we're used to
hearing about most days on the news, which is alot of local stuff. So I, uh, think that's really
cool. I have been having just the most fascinatingconversation. I'm wondering if you can share with
(46:54):
us a story from your experiences, whether as anovelist or as a judge. Doesn't matter. Um, uh,
that's either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, orjust plain funny.
Um, you know, I feel like I'm a decent writer.
I've done a lot of it over the course of mycareer, but I have to confess, I'm an average
speller. But I'm m not a very good speller ofnames. And when I was in college writing for the
(47:19):
school newspaper writing op Eds, uh, I cranked outan op Ed. And this is, you know, in the days where
before I became pretty proficient at editing myown work.
You know, I.
You feel like once you put the last period inplace, you were done and get the thing in to the
publisher and you could go on the next thing. AndI had, uh, referenced Oprah Winfrey in, uh, one of
(47:43):
my op eds and spelled, uh, her name Opera.
Fortunately, I turned it on a Tuesday, and I thinkit went to the publisher on Thursday. And I
remember vividly, uh, on Wednesday I saw it. Wasit a billboard or something? Advertising and
opera? And I just looked at that. I thought, gosh,that that's interesting. And it just dawned on me,
(48:06):
you know, you better go back. I think you spelled,uh, Oprah Opera. Uh, turns out I had. But I was
able to, to get to it before, uh, it was put inink and, uh, saved myself a lot of embarrassment.
So the lesson there is, um, know your weaknessesand double, triple check the spelling of names.
(48:29):
You do realize that Oprah is Harpo backwards?
Yes, I do. Yeah, I do.
Now, in fact, that's the name of her company ontop of everything else is Harpo. All right, so
last question for you today, Thomas. Um, you've,uh, given us a huge amount of just outstanding
advice throughout the whole show. But I'mwondering if you can share with someone who's
(48:49):
starting out as a writer or maybe they're in alittle bit trying to figure it out. A good piece
of advice or a tip?
So I would say two things. One is to the aspiringwriter who has always wanted to give it a try, I
would just strongly encourage you to try it. It'sgoing to be difficult writing that first chapter.
That first paragraph is incredibly difficult. ButI think you will find that if you accomplish that
(49:13):
and take it a, uh, step at a time, it comestogether and you just have to stick with it. It
set reasonable goals in terms of output andproduction, whether it's 250 words a day, 500
words a day, or a thousand words a day. Just tryto move the story along a little bit at a time and
you will find that you will be able to accomplishwhat you're set your mind to. The second piece of
(49:35):
advice I would have is don't quit your day job.
Odds are you're not going to make a lot of moneydoing this. Do it because you love it, because you
have a story to tell and, uh, because you're proudof your work. Don't do it because you think you're
gonna make a fortune because you're not. But thatdoesn't mean you don't have a good book and a good
story to tell.
Two outstanding pieces of advice. Thomas Cullen.
(49:58):
This has been a fantastic episode of Story Beat.
And those of you that are interested, uh, checkout Charlie Mann. I'm sure you can find it, uh,
not only at Amazon, but at other fine booksellersand give it a thank you so much, Thomas, for being
on the show.
Thank you, Steve. It's been great.
And so we've come to the end of today's StoryBeat. If you like this episode, won't you please
(50:19):
take a moment to give us a comment, rating orreview on whatever app or platform you're
listening to? Your support helps us bring moregreat Story Beat episodes to you. Story Beat is
available on all major podcast apps and platforms,including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify,
iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until nexttime, I'm Steve Cuden and may all your stories be
(50:45):
unforgettable.
On today's Story Beat
(00:02):
To the aspiring writer who has always wanted togive it a try. I would just strongly encourage you
to try it. Right. It's going to be difficultwriting that first chapter. That first paragraph
is incredibly difficult. But I think you will findthat if you accomplish that and take it a step at
a time, it comes together.
This is Story Beat with Steve Cuden. A podcast forthe creative mind. Storybeat explores how masters
(00:28):
of creativity develop and produce brilliant worksthat people everywhere love and admire. So join us
as we discover how talented creators find successin the worlds of imagination and entertainment.
Here now is your host, Steve Cuden.
(00:51):
Thanks for joining us on Story Beat. We're comingto you from the Steel City, Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania. My guest today, Thomas Cullen, is afederal trial judge and former U.S. attorney in
Virginia. He was recently honored as the 2024Carter O. Lowens Fellow from the William and Mary
Law School, which is his alma mater. A native ofRichmond, Virginia, Thomas studied history and ran
(01:14):
track at Furman University in Greenville, SouthCarolina, from which he was recently awarded an
honorary doctorate. Thomas is also an accomplishedwriter. For more than 10 years, he regularly
published op eds and essays in national andregional media outlets until his appointment to
the bench made publishing further such articlesprohibitive. However, he didn't stop writing. In
(01:36):
2025, he published his first novel, Charlie Mann,which I've read and can tell you is a beautifully
written, fictional coming of age story that readslike a powerful, heartfelt memoir. Charlie Mann is
for readers of all ages, from teens on up. It willhave strong resonance for anyone who's ever
struggled with love and loss throughout theirteenage years. So for all those reasons and many
(02:00):
more, I'm truly privileged to welcome therespected jurist and brilliant writer Thomas
Cullen to Story Beat today. Thomas, welcome to theshow.
Thanks for having me, Steve. It's a pleasure to behere.
Well, it's my great privilege. Um, so let's goback in time just a little bit. At what point in
your life, how young were you when, when you firstbecame interested in books and storytelling?
(02:22):
So, um, I was privileged to have a mom who read tome as a child, uh, and I remember vividly being
age 4, 5, 6, 7, sitting with, um, my two sisters.
Also have a little brother who wasn't born yet. Wewould sit in her bedroom every night and, uh, she
would read to us. I was never, uh, a great studentuntil later in life, but I always was an avid
(02:49):
reader. I love books and I think because I was anavid reader, I became an inable writer. And
fortunately I was able to use those skills in thepractice of law and in my professional career.
And how did you use those skills in the practiceof law?
A lot of folks don't know that most lawyers andlawyers generally do a lot of writing. A lot of it
(03:11):
is not very good writing and not something thatanyone wants to read. But effective lawyers are
skilled writers. A big part of being, uh, anadvocate is written, uh, advocacy. I felt like by
the time I became a practicing lawyer, I was adecent writer. Through the practice of law over
the last 20 plus years, uh, I've honed thoseskills and, uh, improved those skills. We always
(03:36):
improve, uh, as writers. And that's something thathas been important, uh, in my career from start to
the current day.
So I've had the, I don't know, you'd say goodfortune or poor fortune to have dealt with a lot
of lawyers in my life, including members of myfamily. But also in my own personal life, I've
dealt with lots of lawyers. And one of the thingsI've noticed about lawyers is they're very good at
(04:00):
telling stories. Not necessarily fictionalstories, but they're storytellers. Is that
something that you find to be true with most good,especially trial lawyers?
No, absolutely. Particularly for trial lawyers.
Right.
You have to establish a narrative. What is thiscase about? Um, to interest, uh, a jury, uh, to
interest a judge, to put things in layman's termsand uh, capture and hold, uh, an audience's
(04:26):
attention. So whether you're doing that standingin the well of a courtroom or, um, through a
brief, that's always the goal. And it should be inthe back of your mind, uh, when you're kind of
marshaling the facts and coming up with anarrative and making an argument
and coming from the beginning of a story to themiddle of a story to the end of a story in a trial
(04:48):
sense is very important, just like it is in anovel.
Absolutely. It's critical. You have to, uh, staywith the script. Right. And try, um, not to
deviate and um, make the points that you need tomake and make them effectively.
So you've also always then been a reader offiction?
Yes, yes. Um, fiction and nonfiction. Uh, I'llread anything you put in front of of me. I think
(05:11):
my worst nightmare would be to be stuck in a roomwithout something to read.
Well, that's that old cliche. If you were going tobe stuck on a deserted island, what book would you
like to have with you?
You know, Absolutely.
What writers did you admire as a kid and who doyou admire now?
Sure. Um, so as a kid, um, coming up, in terms offiction, I loved Ernest Hemingway. Uh, read almost
(05:34):
everything, uh, he wrote. Robert Penn Warren's allthe King's Men is probably my favorite novel. Um,
I loved Catcher in the Rye. Um, in terms offiction, um, those are probably my favorites. But
I'm an avid reader of nonfiction and biography.
Uh, I'm a big Winston Churchill fan. I've probablyread every biography, uh, including William
(05:57):
Manchester trilogy, on Winston Churchill. WinstonChurchill was himself a great writer, and that's
something I've always admired about.
Winston Churchill is one of the most brilliantwriters who's ever lived, no question. Um, and you
mentioned Catcher in the Rye. It's interesting.
Just this afternoon, as I was reviewing my notesfor tonight, uh, I thought to myself, your book is
(06:19):
somewhat reminiscent of Catcher in the Rye. It hasthat quality to it.
Well, I appreciate that. That's a compliment. J.D.
salinger. I mean, that was a watershed work in theearly 1950s, and it has lasting resonance and
importance today. But most folks don't know thisabout me. Before I was a, uh, practicing lawyer,
before I went to law school, I taught 10th gradeEng.
(06:41):
Oh, really?
At an all boys, ah, prep school in Virginia. AndCatcher and Her Eye was part of the syllabus that
year. And I had four different sections and got toread it four or five times and teach the novel.
And it was, it was great fun.
Well, that's. I think it shows in your work.
That's what I really noticed. It has that tone andtenor. And we'll talk more about that in a few
(07:01):
minutes. Um, when did you start to write? How oldwere you? When you begin to seriously think about
writing.
So I had, um, great teachers along the way. Uh, Iwas privileged to attend a school that emphasized
writing and good writing and teaching the basicsin terms of grammar and style and usage, from
diagramming sentences to constructing, um, essays,uh, and the like. So I had an interest in writing
(07:28):
early on, carried through college, where I workedfor the college newspaper, um, wrote, uh, op EDS
and essays. And then even as a practicing lawyer,in addition to writing briefs and the like, I
would regularly write op EDS for various newsoutlets on legal topics, political topics, and the
like. And then when I became a judge, I could nolonger opine on current events and politics and
(07:54):
those sorts of things. So I had to find a newoutlet.
So, so were. Did you take writing classes inschool before you ever thought about the law?
I never took. I mean, I took. I went to a liberalarts college, so I took, ah, English and
communications and history. Did a lot of writingin my spare time, but, you know, didn't specialize
in creative writing or anything like that.
(08:16):
So your training is just by having written a lot?
Correct, Just writing a lot, um, as a student,writing a lot as a lawyer, and writing every day
as a judge.
Well, I bet you do write every day a lot as ajudge. And you, you probably read a whole lot too.
I do. Uh, and not all of it's good.
Well, I do know for fact certain that as ascreenwriter, I've taught screenwriting for almost
(08:40):
15 years. And one of the things that I teach in myclasses is if you ever, as a student, if you ever
want to see how not to write dialogue, just read adeposition.
I think that's probably very true.
Well, because, uh, the stenographer is capturingall the ums and ers and stops and starts and it
makes no sense half the time. I mean, you read it,it doesn't have any dramatic drive at all.
(09:04):
Right. Now as a lawyer, you think you were soeloquent until you read the transcript.
I'm sure that's exactly right. So for you, whatmakes a good story good?
So, you know, it's in the eye of the beholder. Um,but I think, and I teach law students this when I
speak to them, you have to establish, uh, anarrative and grab the reader right from the
(09:30):
outset. And in legal writing, right, so we'retalking about mundane business disputes and
accidents and medical malpractice cases. You haveto find the story within the dense and dull
subject matter. And, uh, I think good writers, uh,who are lawyers can do that effectively. It takes
(09:51):
patience, it takes ingenuity, it takes creativity,and it takes a lot of time and work. But there's
always a story in something and you have to findthe story, establish the story and carry it
through.
Absolutely. I also imagine that in your time asboth a lawyer and a judge, you've met and dealt
(10:11):
with lots of, I'm putting air quotes upcharacters, uh, in your life.
No question.
Are you able to use those observations in yourwriting?
Um, I probably do. In terms of the novel Charlieman that I wrote, certainly folks that I
encountered along the way as a young man during myformative years played a significant role in the
(10:32):
characters, uh, in the particular, particularnovel. I've yet to write a book about being a
lawyer and some of the folks I've encounteredalong the way as a prosecutor and a defense
attorney, I may very well do that at some point.
And certainly if I Did I would likely draw on someof the characters that I've had the good fortune
to be around.
(10:53):
I have no doubt you've seen many. Um, Are you afan of John Grisham and uh, Tarot?
No, absolutely. I was a fan of John Grisham. Uh,the Firm, I think was the blockbuster that came
out, uh, even before For Time to Kill. Time toKill, I think was his first novel, wasn't a
commercial success. The Firm put him on the map. Iread them all early and probably read every,
(11:15):
everything he's written. He is a Virginian, youknow, he's Mississippian native. But he, uh, makes
his home outside of Charlottesville, Virginia, sowe claim him as our own.
You may as well. Uh, so I think that you probablywould write some really excellent legal thrillers.
I think that's what you should think about.
(11:35):
Well, I'll have to give it some thought. If I havesome time, maybe we can, we can make that happen.
Well, there you go. Let's talk about Charlie Mannfor a bit. Tell the listeners, uh, more about what
Charlie Mann is about.
Sure. So Charlie Mann is a, uh, coming of agenovel. Uh, it's set, ah, in a unique place.
Richmond, Virginia, where I was born and raised,um, at that time a sleepier southern city. It's
(12:00):
now a major metropolitan area in a progressivesouthern city. It was less so in the, uh, early to
mid-1990s when, when I was in high school. Butit's set in a unique time. So it's uh, circa 1994,
1995. And this is the pre Internet, pre socialmedia, pre cell phone age. But that said, it deals
(12:24):
with a teenage protagonist who was dealing with,uh, things that are timeless in terms of
challenges, um, things that, uh, young folks havefaced as long as humans have walked the face of
the earth in terms of loss of a parent, anxiety,fraught friendships, uh, first loves and the like.
(12:47):
So it deals with all of those timeless challengesand themes, but in a unique place at a unique
time. Uh, before kids were wedded to their phonesand actually talked face to face and had, uh,
lengthy conversations.
Well, the old, uh, writing cliche is write whatyou know, which I always say is not necessarily
(13:08):
from your life, it's just what you know in yourheart to be true or from your research. Um, in
this case, you are. You wrote a story that takesplace among teenagers from a, from a period of
time when you were a teenager. So how did you goback and relate to all that? Did you take notes
back in the day? Did you keep journals?
(13:30):
I Didn't, uh, I was going all vivid memory, uh,for the most part, for a long time. Thought one,
one day I would. I would take a stab at writing anovel. And I knew how the first chapter would go,
but I didn't know much beyond that. Um, and the,the project kind of came about, um, after several
(13:51):
conversations with my wife. I had written an essayon fly fishing in the winter with my golden
retriever. And I had such a ball doing that. Andshe just said, you know, you ought to try to
write, write a novel. And, uh, I kind of laughedit off and thought about it for a week. And then
one evening I said, you know what? I'm going totry to start that first chapter. I've thought long
(14:13):
and hard about. I did. And, uh, it just started toflow.
So why do that now? Why did you decide to. Whathappened in your life that's now as opposed to
five years ago or five years from now?
So, uh, you know, that's a great question, and I'mnot sure what the answer is. I guess at some point
you, you come to the realization you're notgetting any younger. Right? That's for sure. You
(14:36):
know, memories fade and, um, as you get older, youhave less energy in industry that may have when
you're a little bit younger. And I just felt likethis was a good time. And I was in, uh, a station
in life where I was able to spend time early inthe morning before court and on the weekends to
(14:58):
devote to the project. And I just decided to makea go of it.
Is that when you write early in the morning?
Yeah, I do my best work probably first thing inthe morning. Um, I'm an early riser. And, uh,
after having coffee and, uh, getting ready for theday, um, I have. I think probably I'm a little
more focused than I am later in the day and in theevening. And, uh, I've found over the course of my
(15:23):
career as a student and as a lawyer that I do mybest work early rather than later.
And how much time could you typically devote towriting in the morning?
So it just, it depended on the day. Um, usually Iwould have an hour and a half to two hours before
I had to turn to other things. You know, sometimesif, uh, cases settled or, uh, trials went away, I
(15:45):
would have an hour during the day to turn back toit, and then would spend a lot of time on
Saturdays and over the weekend, um, working on it.
You know, going into it, I had no idea, uh, howlong it would take. But I found once I Started. I
uh, enjoyed it so much that things just kind offlowed and I was able to put together the
manuscript in about three months now. That said, Ispent you know, a year editing, rewriting with the
(16:11):
help of really talented publisher. At least thefirst draft just kind of came out.
Well, the, the, I've always said to people thatthe craft of writing is that first draft and then
the art of writing and storytelling is therevisions.
No question. Uh, I learned early on in my careeras a lawyer that, that the editing is uh,
oftentimes more important than the writing.
Oh. Inevitably, because that first draft isusually not very good. Uh, I don't know if you
(16:37):
ever read um, now uh, I'm forgetting her name.
It's Annie. Um, well anyway, the book is calledBird by Bird. Have you ever read. No, I'm m trying
to remember Annie's last name and I'll think of itin a second. But uh, she has a. It's all about
being a writer and writing and she has an entirechapter called Shitty first draft.
It's true, it's true.
(16:59):
It really is. Uh, and Annie Lamott is her name. Iknew I'd think of it in a second. I highly
recommend it. It's an outstanding book aboutwriting and being a writer. Um, so where did you
begin in this process? Did it begin withcharacters or with plot?
So I think it began with characters. I knew, um,who the protagonist was, I knew who his best
friend was. I knew he would have a girlfriend. Uh,I knew that there were uh, important influences on
(17:25):
his life in terms of teachers, coaches, uh, astrong personality, mother. Um, so it was
character driven. And then the plot kind of tookshape from there. Um, it's interesting you're a
screenwriter. The most daunting part for me, andthe thing I was most worried about was dialogue.
As a lawyer you don't write dialogue. And uh, thatwas the one aspect I wasn't sure I could pull that
(17:49):
off. And as I got into it I just found myself inthe shoes of these characters as an 18 year old
boy. Just imagine how would you uh, have ah, putthat. What would you have said? What's the wise
ass comeback, right, that you would have used inthat particular situation? And I just had a ball
doing that. So it ended up, you know, the dialoguewasn't nearly. I mean it was still challenging
(18:14):
but, but I thought I was able to pull it off inthe end.
It was freeing for you because it wasn't your dayjob and it wasn't what you normally write.
Right? That's exactly right. So. So that. So thatwas an important piece. And then, you know, I'm
sometimes asked, are you, uh, know regimen by anoutline or suit of your pants type writer? And I'm
(18:36):
probably a little bit of a hybrid. So I didn'thave a clear sense of how the plot would develop,
um, when I started. But as the book progressed, Istarted to anticipate and think about twists and
turns and as ideas would come to me. A lot oftimes when I try to run every day on the trails,
uh, in the mountains here outside of my home, Iwould get back from a run and take out a piece of
(19:00):
scratch paper and kind of map out the next coupleof chapters.
You were thinking steps ahead. You weren'tconfronting each chapter fresh like you had no
idea you were actually thinking ahead.
I was, yes.
I talked to plenty of writers on this show that doeither or both. Um, most writers are outliners,
but there are quite a few who just go at it. Idon't know how you do it. I'm an outliner, so I
(19:23):
need to know where I'm going before I sit down towrite. It's just the way it works for me. What do
you think it is about Charlie that hooks you rightin?
So I, you know, I think, um, Charlie as acharacter, hopefully folks can relate to someone,
uh, in terms of being a mediocre student, but. Butsomeone who's, uh, I think wise and maybe wise
(19:45):
beyond his years. He's, he's empathetic, he's gota wry sense of humor. Um, he. He takes setbacks in
stride. Uh, he deals with a lot of crap, but. Butat the end of the day, I think he shows a certain
res and uh, the ability to persevere. So hopefullythe reader can identify with having these
(20:08):
challenges, but facing challenges with aplomb andkeeping your head up and continuing to move
forward.
So you have some terrific themes throughout thisbook. Uh, and they really do relate to teenagers
in particular, though I think to everyone ingeneral. You have competition and bullying and
abuse and, um, ambition to forge ahead in yourlife. Certainly love lost and heartache and
(20:32):
brotherliness. That gets all messy, especiallybetween your two protagonists, more or less, um,
and betrayals and growing up. Was this somethingthat you've thought about for a long time or did
it just flow out of you as you were working?
So I think it flowed out as I was working. And Ithink subconsciously, um, you know, you're aware
(20:55):
of what are you trying to accomplish here? Right?
What, what is the implicit message right what doyou want the reader to take away from, you know,
this particular situation and how he handleshimself? Um, so I think that's an important
aspect.
Are you able to say what that is without givinganything away?
So I think I'd be lying if I said it was overlyintentional, uh, on my part. But at the same time,
(21:20):
I mean, it's false, right? Going to a prep schooland all the baggage that comes through that
experience, and every experience is different, andthey have their positives and their negatives, and
there's certainly a lot of negatives. With growingup and kind of a privileged environment and going
to a school like that, it does teach you certainthings. Right? And I was fortunate to have
(21:44):
teachers, uh, and coaches and friends who, um,through struggles and challenges, really, really
taught me to, you know, you've got to moveforward. You got to keep your head up. Life is.
Life is tough, you know, suck it up and, uh, uh,make the best of it.
Well, I'm one of those people that found being ateenager very difficult. It was not fun for me. I
(22:06):
didn't. I couldn't wait to be an adult. And, uh,as I look back, I think, how did I get through
that? But you do. You kind of like you're livingone step every day, and you. You learn from it.
And I think that that is how we mature and becomepeople.
And. No question. And, um, you know, the currentgeneration and I have two teenage children, right.
(22:28):
Uh, it's different. And one of the things I worryabout, Steve, is is this generation, are these
kids, uh, equipped to deal with life. Right. Arethey as resilient, uh, as prior generations?
Well, I think the thing that, uh, has altered itinextricably with all the challenges is the cell
(22:48):
phone and computers and all these screens. I thinkthis has changed our humanity in a huge way. Don't
you agree?
And, uh, there's no question in terms of shortenedattention spans and how people socialize with each
other. One could argue it's just not a normal wayto go through life.
Well, Charlie Mann is a good example of how itwas. I'm not sure you'd write a novel the same way
(23:14):
today. About today.
Uh, there's no question. And I couldn't do itbecause I don't, um, fully understand.
Well, I think that's part of the problem is Ithink very few people understand it. I think even
the people that are young and in it don'tunderstand it.
I think that's very true.
And it'll probably be a generation or two whenpeople look back and finally break it down and
figure it out. And so that's what's almostrelieving about reading Charlie Mann is that it
(23:37):
takes you back to a, uh, for lack of a bettercliche, a, uh, gentler, kinder time. Even though
the characters in this book are. Go through hell.
Yes. No question. Right. It's got its positivesand its negatives. I think one of the positives is
that we related to each other a little bitdifferently.
So you wrote this. As I said in the intro, itfeels like memoir, even though it isn't. I assume
(24:02):
that there's a degree of autobiographical stuff inhere, but it's not. Not an autobiography. Correct.
It's not an autobiography. Right. I mean, I grewup in that. In that city at that time. Um, I think
several of the characters are familiar to theauthor. Um, there are no dead ringers. There are
composites of people that I knew. Uh, I have a lotof friends in Richmond, Virginia, who I grew up
(24:26):
with, and folks who were teachers of mine and knewme back then, and they love to try to guess who
some of these characters are. And, you know, and Iwon't admit to anything because I don't want to be
sued, uh, in the novel. And, uh, there are no deadringers.
Well, okay, so I don't want. Not going to try topry legal advice out of you, but could you be sued
(24:47):
as a novelist for writing characters that arebased on people you know?
No, I don't think so. Fiction is fiction. Insofaras you're holding the book out as a work of art or
work of fiction, by and large, I think you'reprotected in terms of. Hopefully that's the case.
Well, even. I mean, authors write Romana clefs,which are very much closely related to real
(25:11):
characters. And I guess as long as they're in thepublic domain, the characters in the public
domain, then you're okay. But I think you'reextraordinarily good at setting tone. I mentioned
that earlier on. I'm just curious, is thereanything that you did intentionally to set the
tone of the book?
I don't know that it was intentional. I was tryingto, um, be authentic. Right. In terms of my voice
(25:35):
and, um, the characters is, you know, I recalledthem. So to say that, you know, I set out to do
that. I think I'd be lying to claim it.
Where did the emotions in the book come from? Imean, are you an emotional person, or is this.
My wife would say I am not an emotional person.
(25:55):
You know, I can Be emotional. You know, in termswhen you have children, it's hard not to be, uh,
emotional. I think you get more sentimental as youget older. Um, but given the nature of my job and
most of the work I've done over the course of mycareer, you can't be overly emotional. So I think
this was cathartic.
Right.
In some respects, this was. You can get out ofthat world and recollect and reminisce, you know,
(26:21):
be a little more unguarded.
Uh, again, it's a freeing thing for you becauseof, of the type of job you do.
No question. And, and I was heavily invested init. I mean, I found Steve when I finished the
first draft, for several days. I was sad. I missedthose characters and kind of being part, uh, of
their life. I mean, I was reliving to a certainextent, being that age and, uh, having those
(26:46):
experiences. And that was a cool thing for me.
Well, have you thought about writing a sequel toit? Where, where would Charlie Mann be today?
Yeah, that, that's a great question. I, I, I don'tknow. There's a possibility maybe there's a
sequel, uh, at some point, or, uh, maybe somethingentirely different. Charlie, you know, I think we
leave him, and he's in a pretty good spot. He'sbeen through a lot, but he's got a, a long life to
(27:10):
live. So who knows?
Well, because he, we won't give anything away, buthe faces both life and death in the show. It's in
the show, in the book. And, uh, for sure he has tocontend with a lot of things. I found some of the
scenes, um, uh, difficult to read, especially thestable scenes. Those were challenging. Um, did you
(27:31):
experience anything like that as a kid, where youhad people and violence and that kind of thing?
I think the way I answer that, that particularscene is probably more familiar to the author, um,
than perhaps some of the others. Um, and Iprobably should leave it at that.
(27:51):
Well, that's good. Yeah, you should leave it atthat.
That was probably a little more, um, memoir thansome of the other parts of the book.
Well, I think that's, um, powerful stuff is whatit is. And I think that that bleeds through in
there, that it's that powerful to you, the author.
So where did Charlie come from? Um, he was afootball and track star. You were a runner?
(28:13):
I was a runner. Um, I played football through jv,but I was a terrible football player. I weighed
about 140 pounds. Used to get the crap kicked outof me.
What position?
So I, uh, JV I played tight end and uh, defensiveback. I was a pretty good blocker as a tight end.
Just a gangly, you know, I was probablyfive'11,140 pounds. I could hold the line, but I
(28:36):
was a pretty, pretty poor tackler.
Well, at 140 pounds, what kind of a defensive packare you going to be?
Not much of one. Not much of one. To the extent Ihave any athletic ability, it was as a runner.
And you have this marvelous, um, three partrelationship in the story between Charlie and Beau
and Katie. And that's, I think that's. I neverwent through anything like that in my life. So I
(29:01):
found it interesting to read. I think that peoplewho have been through that, and I won't give that
away either, um, that people have been throughwhere there are three people involved that it can
be very, very challenging.
No question. Particularly if you're 18 years old.
Right.
Particularly if you're 18 years old. I think,listen, I don't think it's easy when you're 50
(29:23):
either, but at 18, yeah, that's really tricky. Didyou use any particular techniques from any kind
of, um, books or advice from anyone regarding howto create the characters, how to put them together
and make them three dimensional?
I didn't, um, and maybe I should have, but thiswas, you know, I just kind of started and the
(29:46):
characters developed organically, um, certainlythrough the uh, editing process with input from my
publisher and copy editor. They helped me refineand build and challenge certain aspects and
improved uh, the characters probablysignificantly. But in terms of kind of formulaic,
(30:09):
this is how you do it. No, I didn't do that.
You got notes from people on this?
Yes.
Um, and did you have a specific editor that youworked with?
I did.
So.
Um, my publisher, Brandy Lane. I was fortunategoing into this project. I mean I had no idea how
this worked. Right. And how unique this industryis and just how difficult it is. Right. To get a
(30:31):
book published. I was very naive. I mean I feellike as a judge and established lawyer, I know a
lot about a lot of things. I didn't know anythingabout this, but I was fortunate early on in the
process to find a publisher that was based inVirginia. I think part of the reason they were
interested in the book to begin with is becausethis is a judge writing, uh, a young adult novel
(30:56):
and that's worse worth, you know, our time to atleast give it a read. So they agreed to, to read
it and we were able to, to figure out, you know,arrangement to, to publish it. They were just
fantastic. I was really, really impressed from asmall indie publisher, um, the amount of support
in terms of getting the manuscript polished andready to go and then through the publication
(31:20):
process and everything that follows.
Well, you, you know, as I say, I've been doingthis show for a long time and I've had a number of
lawyers on the show, uh, but I've never had ajudge on the show. So that says something about
the fact that you are unusual in that you wrote anovel while on the bench.
Yes.
(31:40):
What did you do, do you think, to avoid thecharacters feeling stereotyped? Because they do
not. They feel very rich.
That's a great question, and I'm not sure what theanswer is. Um, you know, I was just trying to
create authenticity. Characters that were, youknow, close in terms of disposition, uh, and the
(32:02):
way they go about life, uh, to the folks that,that I encountered along the way. You know, you
can stereotype anything, and I'm sure you canstereotype some of these characters. But to the
extent you think that I did a decent job trying toavoid major stereotypes, I will take that as a
compliment.
Well, it's very easy for people to think, I love Xbook. I like Catcher in the Rye. I'll just write a
(32:25):
book that's like Catcher in the Rye. And thatimitation always comes off to me as three, as two
dimensional or cardboard. It doesn't feel real.
And so what you did, I think, felt very authentic.
In fact, part of the authenticism of it, orauthenticity, I think is the right word. It would
be that you have this story that takes place inyour hometown, where you grew up. Up and at an age
(32:48):
that you experience certain things. And so that'spart of the authenticity of it. Did you need to do
any further research? Did you have to go back intothe archives or library or anything to research
things?
I really didn't. Um, and I've been asked that. Didyou go back to the dam and the river and where you
used to hang out? And, uh, I didn't, because youcan't. They've now built houses and it's changed
(33:12):
so much. M. Naturally, in 30, 35 years. So I getarrested for trespassing if I attempted that
today.
Even the neighborhood, which is very vividly drawnin the book, that's gone too.
You know, the neighborhood is there. This is in,um. So the novel is essentially set in what's
called the near West End, Richmond, which is kindof the old established part of Richmond
(33:34):
neighborhoods. The big elm trees and oak trees andpoplar trees, uh, the colonial Type houses, uh,
the serpentine walls and the like. So a lot ofthat is still there. Where part of the book is set
on the river, this old house and a bluff,undeveloped land, a lot around that has now been
(33:56):
developed.
And that's sort of old Richmond, isn't it?
That's old Richmond.
It doesn't go back to the Civil War, does it? Ordoes it go back that far?
The city itself?
No, this neighborhood, the houses?
Uh, no, the neighborhood would be post Civil War,uh, turn of the 20th century.
Got it, got it. And where does St. Mark'sEpiscopal School come from? Is that based on a
(34:17):
real school?
Yes, so it's loosely based on a real school. Iactually attended a co Ed School. St. Mark's in
the book is an all boys school. And um, I thinkreaders who are familiar with Richmond would uh,
quickly identify which particular all boys schoolthat was a rival of my school that it's loosely
based on.
All right, so what do you think, uh, the biggestchallenges you faced in writing the book was? Was
(34:41):
it time? Was it development? What do you think thebiggest challenge was for you?
So I think going in, as I said, dialogue was asignificant challenge. Carving out time was always
a challenge. And then until I was able to get apublisher, just figuring out how I was going to
get this project completed and out into the world,uh, which I think is a great challenge for most
(35:02):
writers who want to, to accomplish something likethat.
So you clearly secured a book deal. I think wealluded to the fact that you are a judge and that
was probably intriguing in part to the publishers.
But what do you think writers, uh, should do inorder to get a publisher or attract a publisher?
(35:23):
What do you, from your experience here, what doyou think is important?
Being willing to kind of think outside the box.
Right. There are scores of reputable indiepublishers, small publishers that are all over the
United States and all over the world. Um, youknow, it's very difficult, number one to find an
(35:44):
agent, number two, to get one of the big fourpublishers to pick up your novel. One of the
things I learned through this process is, youknow, the whole market for fiction is just changed
and the days of advances and royalties and all ofthose things. Things, or unless you're John
Grisham and you know, One of the 20 bestsellingauthors, uh, regularly, you're not going to be
(36:08):
able to go that route. Particularly as aunpublished, uh, first time novelist. It's almost
impossible. You have to have a track record, youhave to have a social media platform. They got to
be Able to market you.
And you can't have a social media platform. Right.
And I can't. Right. Given, given what I do. And,and that was one of the challenges in marketing
this. I mean, I can't put out content and, uh,plug things and plug myself. Uh, I just can't
(36:35):
ethically as a judge. So that was a challenge. SoI think, um, authors, uh, aspiring authors need to
be willing to think outside the box and try anindie publisher. Think about, I don't know, self
publishing works for everyone. But, but, um,insofar as that is a viable, uh, option for folks,
(36:56):
they ought to consider it. At the end of the day,if you have a good book and you want to share it,
um, you got to be willing to do what it takes toget it out there.
That's correct. And the market is saturated withbooks at this point. And there are, I can't
remember what the number is. It's 70, 80, 90,000books a year are published. And it's very
difficult to break through and get people to payattention to. Just like the podcast. Podcasting is
(37:20):
the same thing. There are 5 million podcasts,literally 5 million and everybody. And so you have
to figure out how to break through that too. Um,I'm curious. In both your professional life and
your writing life, you have had to deal with somekind of pressures. I assume that the pressures as
a trial lawyer and then a judge, there aredifferent kinds of pressures. Is there anything
(37:43):
you do creatively to tamp down pressure in yourlife or to deal with pressure?
Look to my creative juices to, uh, tamp downpressure necessarily. It's interesting. I spoke to
some law students earlier this week and I had asimilar point. How do you deal with the pressure
of high profile cases? And my answer to them inthat context, I think it's true. Um, for writing
(38:07):
or really anything else, is that hard, uh, workand preparation go a long way. Um, and I, you
know, I don't claim to be brilliant, I'm not. Um,but I've always, in terms of the work that I
enjoy, uh, I put in the time and the effort and Idon't take things for granted. And, uh, I think
there's a lot to be said for that.
(38:28):
Well, I think it has to show because you're fulltime on a difficult job and you then publish a
novel, you must be a very hard worker. You aren'tsitting around twiddling your thumbs, that's for
sure.
I like to stay busy.
Well, that's a good thing. I want to talk for amoment about writing articles, which you did for a
long time. So you've published op EDS and essays.
(38:50):
How do you think that doing that impacted thediscipline required to write the novel?
So, um, it's a different genre, right? Differentstyle, a, ah, different purpose. But it requires
the same type of discipline. And ultimately, youknow, one of the things I, to the extent I pride
myself on anything, is that I try to be consistentin my writing. Whether I'm writing an opinion or
(39:17):
writing an op ed or writing, um, this particularnovel, uh, I want the writing to be accessible,
right? So when I'm writing opinions, the lastthing I want is it to be larded up with legalese
and, you know, just to be boring and dull anduninteresting. It's really important for me to try
(39:39):
to craft prose in a way that um, is just clear andsimple and concise and really grabs the reader.
Well, if you write legal opinions the way that youwrote this book, then it's absolutely plain and
clear. Uh, but I've never read any of youropinions, so I don't know whether that's true or
not. I imagine that you probably, um, struggle.
(40:02):
Not. Struggle is not the right word. But don'tcare for writer. Or uh, lawyers that come in and
do gussy it all up with legalese. Probably makesyou a little crazy, I bet.
No, it does. Fortunately, most of the lawyers thatpractice for me on a regular basis are pretty
decent writers and their work product is fine. Uh,but that's not always the case. And um, I'll tell
(40:27):
you this, as a judge, when you have someone whoputs together a really polished brief and it comes
in under 15 pages, the opposition is 45 or 50,you've gone a long way to, uh, bring the judge
around to your side.
Oh, all you lawyers out there, pay attention.
(40:48):
Brevity is the soul of wit, as they say.
Absolutely, absolutely. And, and it's harder,right? As a judge, it's harder to write the 10
page opinion than it is to go on through 35 orpages.
What's the famous Lincoln quote about? Uh, I'msorry, this letter is so long I didn't have time
or I would have made it shorter.
Absolutely. It's so true.
I mean that really is a great way to think aboutit. Um, do you prefer writing now that you've been
(41:15):
through it? Do you have a preference whether youwould rather write short stories or articles as
opposed to the long form?
I really enjoyed the long form. You know, it's,it's all consuming.
Right.
So it's not something I can do all the time anddevote my, my energy to, but I enjoy the, the kind
of. The essay format I, I always have. Uh, I thinkif I wasn't a, a lawyer and a judge, I would, you
(41:39):
know, just hold forth and, and write op eds, 900words on whatever the heck I want and, uh, make my
point and make people laugh. I think that would bea fun way to make a living.
So how do you stay disciplined when perhaps youdon't feel like it?
Gosh, that's a good question. I'm, um, human likeeveryone else. I just think, you know, you just
(42:02):
have a conscience and guilt. You know, you justgot to get to work. Right? You got to get
something accomplished. I've always been kind of alist person.
Right.
You go in, uh, start of the day, I've got a.
Accomplish four things today. And you startworking and you're able to check things off the
list and you feel better about yourself havingdone that.
(42:23):
Oh, there's no question. You know, one of thethings that we teach, and I know that it's
difficult because as a human, you don't alwayswant to work. There are distractions in your life
and other things. But one of the things that weteach is that a professional, and it would be a
professional at anything, let alone writing, but aprofessional at does the work even when they don't
(42:44):
feel like doing it.
No, no question. You know, And Steve, here'swhat's interesting. Ah. Uh, I've heard several
people say this, and it's so true with respect towriting. Good writers hate, you know, hate to
write. Right. They, they dread the prospect ofhaving to sit down and write because they know it
is so difficult and they have such high standards,um, for, you know, what needs to be to, um, come
(43:11):
out when they're at their computer. So I fall inthat category m myself sometimes when I have a big
writing project ahead of me, uh, I have troublesleeping the night before because I know what it
takes to, um, turn that around.
So, to me, there's always been two kinds ofwriters. Those that love to write and those that
love to have written. I'm in the latter category.
(43:33):
I love to have written. The writing part of it isalways challenging.
It is always challenging. If it's not challenging,it's probably not very good.
That's true, I think. Although you can point outcertain writers of just prolific natures, like
Stephen King, um, where, you know that he loves itso much he just bangs away.
(43:57):
Yes. He would probably be the exception.
One of the exceptions. Exceptions? Well, NeilSimon would have been an exception to churn out
massive amounts of material. Um, how do yourefresh your creative?
Well, what do you do? So, um, you know, I do lotsof different things. I love the outdoors, and I
have a cabin high up in the mountains in Virginia.
I take my golden retriever go fly fishing with himas often as I can. I'm out every day, exercising,
(44:22):
running on the trails, just spending timeoutdoors, spending time with my family. I've
always been a big believer, uh, in leaving yourwork at work and, uh, stepping away from that and,
uh, just enjoying, um, downtime. And I think thatthat's really important, just having that balance
(44:43):
in other outlets. Uh, so that's a big part of itfor me.
You obviously are very good at compartmentalizingthings. You must be. But I'm curious. As you're
writing your novel, you're also in your headthinking about what's happening at work and the
various, uh, trials that are coming up and thatyou're writing opinions on and so on. Is there
(45:04):
something that you are able to do where you canmake that switch and not have them bleed into each
other?
Yeah, so they're that different. And I had to becognizant of. Okay, I've got this coming up, so I
probably need to set Charlie Mann aside for acouple of days and really be all in on, uh, um,
what's coming down the pike.
And are you able. Is it easy for you to do thatwhere you can just shut it off?
(45:27):
It was. Although, as you know, I got more, uh,involved and invested in the novel, I kept having
to tell, uh, myself, you can't go back to that.
Right now. You've got a day job, and you need toget these other things done first.
You know, when you're in the entertainmentindustry, um, and sometimes, I'm sure for other
novelists that are constantly writing novels, uh,you're handling multiple assignments at one time,
(45:51):
just like you're handling multiple trials at onetime, I assume. Uh, and so you're. So that ability
to compartmentalize becomes super important, or Ithink it would make you crazy.
No, you have to be able to compartmentalize andkeep things in silos and go from one to the other.
And when you're focused on the one to be. Becompletely focused on that.
(46:11):
And, And I'm based on this conversation, myassumption is, is that when you got to the novel
part of the. The day, that was like, joy. And someof the trial stuff is just hard.
It's Just work for the most part. I think thatthat was true. Um, although some of the trials and
the cases are. Are fun and interesting, not all ofthem are. It's a job like anything else.
(46:33):
I'm sure that you do some really fascinatingstuff, and it must be very interesting.
Interesting, uh, especially as a federal trialjudge. That's other stuff than we're used to
hearing about most days on the news, which is alot of local stuff. So I, uh, think that's really
cool. I have been having just the most fascinatingconversation. I'm wondering if you can share with
(46:54):
us a story from your experiences, whether as anovelist or as a judge. Doesn't matter. Um, uh,
that's either weird, quirky, offbeat, strange, orjust plain funny.
Um, you know, I feel like I'm a decent writer.
I've done a lot of it over the course of mycareer, but I have to confess, I'm an average
speller. But I'm m not a very good speller ofnames. And when I was in college writing for the
(47:19):
school newspaper writing op Eds, uh, I cranked outan op Ed. And this is, you know, in the days where
before I became pretty proficient at editing myown work.
You know, I.
You feel like once you put the last period inplace, you were done and get the thing in to the
publisher and you could go on the next thing. AndI had, uh, referenced Oprah Winfrey in, uh, one of
(47:43):
my op eds and spelled, uh, her name Opera.
Fortunately, I turned it on a Tuesday, and I thinkit went to the publisher on Thursday. And I
remember vividly, uh, on Wednesday I saw it. Wasit a billboard or something? Advertising and
opera? And I just looked at that. I thought, gosh,that that's interesting. And it just dawned on me,
(48:06):
you know, you better go back. I think you spelled,uh, Oprah Opera. Uh, turns out I had. But I was
able to, to get to it before, uh, it was put inink and, uh, saved myself a lot of embarrassment.
So the lesson there is, um, know your weaknessesand double, triple check the spelling of names.
(48:29):
You do realize that Oprah is Harpo backwards?
Yes, I do. Yeah, I do.
Now, in fact, that's the name of her company ontop of everything else is Harpo. All right, so
last question for you today, Thomas. Um, you've,uh, given us a huge amount of just outstanding
advice throughout the whole show. But I'mwondering if you can share with someone who's
(48:49):
starting out as a writer or maybe they're in alittle bit trying to figure it out. A good piece
of advice or a tip?
So I would say two things. One is to the aspiringwriter who has always wanted to give it a try, I
would just strongly encourage you to try it. It'sgoing to be difficult writing that first chapter.
That first paragraph is incredibly difficult. ButI think you will find that if you accomplish that
(49:13):
and take it a, uh, step at a time, it comestogether and you just have to stick with it. It
set reasonable goals in terms of output andproduction, whether it's 250 words a day, 500
words a day, or a thousand words a day. Just tryto move the story along a little bit at a time and
you will find that you will be able to accomplishwhat you're set your mind to. The second piece of
(49:35):
advice I would have is don't quit your day job.
Odds are you're not going to make a lot of moneydoing this. Do it because you love it, because you
have a story to tell and, uh, because you're proudof your work. Don't do it because you think you're
gonna make a fortune because you're not. But thatdoesn't mean you don't have a good book and a good
story to tell.
Two outstanding pieces of advice. Thomas Cullen.
(49:58):
This has been a fantastic episode of Story Beat.
And those of you that are interested, uh, checkout Charlie Mann. I'm sure you can find it, uh,
not only at Amazon, but at other fine booksellersand give it a thank you so much, Thomas, for being
on the show.
Thank you, Steve. It's been great.
And so we've come to the end of today's StoryBeat. If you like this episode, won't you please
(50:19):
take a moment to give us a comment, rating orreview on whatever app or platform you're
listening to? Your support helps us bring moregreat Story Beat episodes to you. Story Beat is
available on all major podcast apps and platforms,including Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify,
iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and many others. Until nexttime, I'm Steve Cuden and may all your stories be
(50:45):
unforgettable.
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