July 27, 2026 • 14 mins
You may have heard of him - At the age of 18, Paul was sent to one of New Zealand's toughest prisons after murdering his drug dealer who had assaulted him.
In 2006, after serving 11 years later, he walked out a free man - studying to get his PHD in psychology.
He’s got a new book out today called “Better Never Stops”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Daily bespoke content that you won't find on the radio
show The hurdar Key Breakfast podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Doctor Paul, what joins us?
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Now?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Get a Paul, how are you amazing? You know, I'm
trying not to fan boy out on you too much acually.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Oh it's fine.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
A lot of people no, no, no, no, you're you're all
good too.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
But sometimes, Paul, I struggled not to fanboy on myself,
such as such as my level of fame, Such as
my level of fame, Paul, your story you'll be getting
this own, Paul, is one of the craziest, most interesting
stories I've ever heard about. In prison at the age
(00:40):
of eighteen killing a drug dealer, your drug dealer, in
prison for eleven years. You during that time you educated
yourself intensely and then and then you came out a
completely reformed different person. Is that a fear in our Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Look at us. I think every day that we wake up,
we have the capacity to start moving in different directions
in terms of who we could be. There's so many
potential versions of ourselves. There are some things which consistent,
right Like if I look back to you know, when
I was a criminal, when I was a drug addict
when I was a kid to who I am now,
(01:21):
there are some consistent elements in respect of my personality
and respect to the type of person I am. However,
you know, the pastures I've found myself and are so
radically different that those things come out in really different ways.
You know what had me as a teenager making a
real effort to be respected by people who were anti
(01:42):
social and who also into crime, and had me just
down this path of drug addiction, those same underlying tendencies
now have me really excelling to be as good as
I possibly can in my career and to add as
much value as I can to other people through my experiences.
So I think we do have these underlying consistencies, but
(02:03):
also we can be radically different in terms of what
our lives look like depended upon you know, the company
we keep. You know, I love that quote, show me
your friends, and I'll show you your future. I really
do believe there's so much in that. But also as well,
just in terms of again the ideas we have of
what's possible for us our lives. Yeah, so very different
person than I was than who I am now. For sure,
(02:25):
who I was when I was released.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
How did that change?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Was there a lightning bulb moment? Was it gradual?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Nah? And look, I think we love to have this
idea of the Damaskian experience. So you're like, oh, I
saw the light and then that was it from that
point forward. But I think most real change for people
is just a collection of small steps that are slowly
moving you in a different direction. And it was certainly
that for me. There were things that were signed posts
along the way, Like I mean, I remember one of
(02:51):
them actually, which I was thinking about earlier, was when
I was in the yard and I was doing these
like word fines or some other kind of puzzles, and
this senior moungel mob guy came up to me. The
skuy Yogi. That's a great name for a month mold memory,
a yogi full facial tattoo's serving nineteen years for armed
robberies and escapes and more armed robberies than that. And
(03:12):
he came up to me, and I remember saying to me, Hey,
stop doing stuff like that. It's a waste of time.
You've got to start, you know, focusing on things that
will make you stronger and more powerful, things that will
make it so that the guards can't take advantage of
you in here, and so that you can have a
better time. And so he was the first person who
I really listened to who was actually encouraging me to
(03:33):
spend my time getting an education. He was the first
sort of like what you call bush lawyer that i'd
came across, you know, someone who knows all the prison
rules and regulations and so can use that as a
way of having a sense of control and empowerment in
a very disempowered environment. And so there are bits like that.
There are other bits with other people who encouraged me
when I was in our toughest maximum security block, and Perimeremu,
(03:56):
one of the Hole in the Wall gang members organized
crime was also you know, shifted me on this path further.
So there are all these moments, but the reality is
is it's just this collection of small steps that leads
you a long way over time, and it's often nonlinear, right,
Like you go in this direction, you slip back like
the stuff I do now. I never knew it was
a possibility when I was in prison, so I wasn't
(04:18):
aiming for it.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, prison at eighteen, Yeah, how was the first How
was the first man night? Do you remember the first
night I lie the movies.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah, it is a lot.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
The first night of an eleven years. We were talking
eleven year sentence here.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, well I was given it was even worse than that,
in the respect that I was given a ten year
minimum non parole period, which meant that I wasn't even
going to go to parole until I'd served ten years.
And at that time, at eighteen, like, I hadn't had
enough life experience to be able to conceptualize ten years,
ten years forever at that age. You know, I'm nearly fifty.
Now I can look at ten years and go, I
(04:56):
understand what that is. At that age, I was like, Okay,
this is my new night, this is it. But actually
I was going through drug withdrawal in those early days,
so my only focus was on, oh my gosh, let
this be a nightmare. Let me wake up from this,
Let this not be the case. Yeah, it was just
it was just too intense. I mean again, I was
in there because I had killed someone. That had been
(05:17):
an insanely intense experience. You know, I had, I had
been attacked, but I'd gone way beyond what was required
of me in terms of self defense and I certainly
earned me in my place in the New Zealand prison system.
Didn't see it that way at the time, right, but
that's what happened. But the intensity of that, the intensity
of everything that was going on in my life at
that time, meant that I really wasn't in a good
(05:39):
position to be able to do anything other than just
try to close my eyes and hope that I could
wake up and this and be over. And then you know,
once I got into it a little bit more, that's
when I was like, Okay, well, this is my new life.
I just got to focus on this. And then you know,
a few years into it, when I had that opportunity
and I had encouragement like people from Yogi, Like I said,
(06:00):
his was more so that I could be more empowered
within the prison. It wasn't like a pro social thing, right,
but getting by. Yeah. But the thing is is you
don't wait for a motivation. Motivation often actually comes after
you've started taking the steps. And so for me, I'm
just really glad that I started down that road and
then my motivation shifted and changed as part of that.
(06:22):
You just got to start taking action.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Eh, you reformed?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Do you think some people do you think everybody has
the potential to reform or do you think some people
don't know?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
But I think they're unusual. I think there are some
people who have such deep neurological damage and differences that
they're comparable. For me, like if you imagine, you know,
you know, you've got animal control, right, You've got heaps
of stray dogs who just need an owner who loves
them and who cares them and looks after them. That's
comparable with the vast majority of people in prison. But
(06:55):
you also have the occasional rabbit dog that's just had
such a life and such an experience that it's just
going to be an ongoing danger. There are people like that.
I look at the prison evolutionist movement and I understand it,
and I think it's really well intended, But I also
think they don't know people who I know, and there
are some people who I've come across in prison, and
again I just want to emphasize this, they're the exception
(07:16):
in the prison environments. Those hardcore psychopaths stand out. Even
within prison. You can see them. Wow, the vast majority
of people there because they've made bad choices, often related
to drug use. If you haven't been around drug addiction,
it's really hard to understand how much it robs you
of your humanity. And so many people you can come
(07:37):
back from that. There are so many people who do
manage to get past that live better lives. But then
you'll just get these hardcore people who it's much harder
to bring them back. And one of the things that
I despair about is like the young people who end
up in maximum security prison. The higher your security level,
the more distorted the world is that you live in,
and the less it prepares you to actually be a
(07:58):
functional member of society upon release.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Jerry and Manaia showing the conflate the Hodaki Breakfast discussion
group on Facebook. For more Jeremy Wells and Manaia Stuart
find them on Instagram at Hodarki Breakfast.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
That's something I thought about because they often talk about,
you know, some people you like yourself, you put them
into that environment that young they are now being taught
by you know, the best and brightest in the criminal underworld.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, one hundred percent, and that's what often happens. One
of the things we know from the longitudinal research around
it is that one of the worst things you can
do to help young people. Most young people late teens,
early twenties stop criminal offending is by putting them in prison,
exposing them to gangs, those sorts of things. I mean,
it's so distressing that environment. Like if I look back
(08:46):
on it, if you've got a young person who goes in,
if you're in the North Island, if you're a Maordy
or Pacific Islander, you going particularly Maldi rape, but Pacific Islanders.
Where you go in, you know, the predominant gang's going
to come up to you, which will either be Uncle
Morb with the black Pow, maybe the Nomad's depending on
where you are, maybe it's the killer bees, you know whatever.
And my experience of it will be they go up
(09:08):
to these young people and they're very much like, hey,
you're with us or you're going to have a very
hard time in here. And what you're with us often
means is we're going to brand you with a gang
tetor on your face. You tell me what your chances are.
I'm a parent myself, right, I think of my kids.
They are not being raised to end up in that environment.
(09:28):
But if you're the parent of a kid who ends
up in that environment, and then you come to visit
them and they've got a gang teto on their face,
and all this was It's just so bad. That's why
I'm such a believer in making sure that we do
everything we can to keep at risk young people out
of that environment in the first place. By the time
then in president, you know you've missed the best opportunities
for good early intervention. You know, one of the things
(09:51):
I'm trying to do with this book is help parents
and help young people more quickly and more effectively figure out, Hey,
what's the path forward for me? And be less caught
up in that you have been raised by the streets,
been raised by the Internet, looking to all the wrong
sources for who it is you need to be, to
be respected, to be accepted and valued, all of those things.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, Paul, in your opinion, you know you were talking
before about because I think for some people they don't
know whether prisons are about rehabilitating prisoners to make sure
they don't commit any more crimes, or punishing crimes and
making sure that the victims feel vindicated of the crime.
(10:36):
Do you know what I mean? Of course, I think
that's the thing that's going on. And so in society,
have we sussed out what prisons are actually for yet
or are they because they don't seem to do either
particularly well.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
No, And I think that's such a good point, Jeremy.
I really don't think that as a society we've had
a really clear, honest conversation around what are the outcomes
we expect from people going to prison. And by the way,
you know, like if you've been a victim of crime
at all, it's completely understandable that you'd want people to
be punished. The idea, the legislative idea, is that the
removal from society is the punishment. But the actual tensions
(11:11):
that you've got to manage for the Department of Corrections
are to rehabilitate, to prepare you so that you can
be released and be a functioning member of society. But
the other one is security, and so it's not actually
about punishment per se. It's about making sure that you
cannot commit further crimes while you're in prison, that you're
not a risk to the community. And the problem is,
(11:33):
how do you achieve rehabilitation You give people the skills
and opportunities to practice making better choices. How do you
achieve security? You remove all the choices from people. And
so there's this big tension, right, And the reality is is,
unfortunately corrections is going to get in a lot more trouble.
They're going to get called into the minister's office if
they end up in the front page of the paper
(11:55):
because someone took advantage of some opportunity they had and
you know, escaped or did whatever they did. Whereas you know,
no one's getting called in the minister's office because okay,
there were no escapes today or anything like that. And
so I think security tends to be the priority, understandably
but unfortunately really counterproductively.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, Paul, we could. I could talk to you for hours, yes,
but we don't. Don't have to do Jerry, you can
read the book. So your book is your third book.
Is that it never stops. And I guess that's about
self improvement, yeah, and about recognizing the self improvement that
(12:38):
you can have in every situation.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
And every year of your life, right, I mean professionally
and personally. And a big part of it is too
is you know, as a species, we're driven to strive. Okay,
we want to get better stuff. That's why we have technology.
We can't help ourselves as a species. We're wired for it.
But one of the things, unfortunately that we often do
in modern life is we strive for the wrong things.
We place value on the wrong things. We assume that
(13:03):
this will give us satisfaction or what have you, or
when we get to this point, will be satisfied, whereas
actually you can learn a lot about how to have
a far better time on the journey in a way
that doesn't deprive you of your ambition and wanting to
get tangible external reward and outcomes in advancement, but just
makes you more satisfied and a better person and happier
(13:25):
with yourself along the way. That's sort of really what
the book's about. And part of that is the social investment. Hey,
having a better idea about how to invest in our
relationships as we pursue our potential professionally and otherwise.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Doctor Paul, would I've got a question for you, and
you might not be able to answer this, but knowing
where you are now today and I'm looking at a
man who seems like a very enlightened man, an intelligent man,
would you make exactly those same choices that lead you
to get to that point? Knowing what you know now
(13:58):
or would you not make those same choices.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I would have to not make those same choices, not
for myself and my own benefit, but to reduce the
harm I caused to other people along the way. That's
what I would say, because I don't regret anything I've experienced,
because it's made me who I am, and I believe
it's increased my capacity to positively impact other people through
my own experience. Today, However, there were multiple people who
(14:27):
were unnecessarily and unfairly hurt as part of my learning journey,
and it would be on the basis of that that
I would er towards that I would make different choices
and I would find a different path for being of
service to the community.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It's a fascinating story. It's been a great pleasure to
chat to you, doctor Paul. Thank you so much for
your time.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Such a pleasure. Thanks guys, SII
Speaker 1 (14:49):
And Maniah match the radio show from six till ten weekdays,
The Hidarchy Breakfast
Daily bespoke content that you won't find on the radio
show The hurdar Key Breakfast podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Doctor Paul, what joins us?
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Now?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Get a Paul, how are you amazing? You know, I'm
trying not to fan boy out on you too much acually.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Oh it's fine.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
A lot of people no, no, no, no, you're you're all
good too.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
But sometimes, Paul, I struggled not to fanboy on myself,
such as such as my level of fame, Such as
my level of fame, Paul, your story you'll be getting
this own, Paul, is one of the craziest, most interesting
stories I've ever heard about. In prison at the age
(00:40):
of eighteen killing a drug dealer, your drug dealer, in
prison for eleven years. You during that time you educated
yourself intensely and then and then you came out a
completely reformed different person. Is that a fear in our Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Look at us. I think every day that we wake up,
we have the capacity to start moving in different directions
in terms of who we could be. There's so many
potential versions of ourselves. There are some things which consistent,
right Like if I look back to you know, when
I was a criminal, when I was a drug addict
when I was a kid to who I am now,
(01:21):
there are some consistent elements in respect of my personality
and respect to the type of person I am. However,
you know, the pastures I've found myself and are so
radically different that those things come out in really different ways.
You know what had me as a teenager making a
real effort to be respected by people who were anti
(01:42):
social and who also into crime, and had me just
down this path of drug addiction, those same underlying tendencies
now have me really excelling to be as good as
I possibly can in my career and to add as
much value as I can to other people through my experiences.
So I think we do have these underlying consistencies, but
(02:03):
also we can be radically different in terms of what
our lives look like depended upon you know, the company
we keep. You know, I love that quote, show me
your friends, and I'll show you your future. I really
do believe there's so much in that. But also as well,
just in terms of again the ideas we have of
what's possible for us our lives. Yeah, so very different
person than I was than who I am now. For sure,
(02:25):
who I was when I was released.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
How did that change?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Was there a lightning bulb moment? Was it gradual?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Nah? And look, I think we love to have this
idea of the Damaskian experience. So you're like, oh, I
saw the light and then that was it from that
point forward. But I think most real change for people
is just a collection of small steps that are slowly
moving you in a different direction. And it was certainly
that for me. There were things that were signed posts
along the way, Like I mean, I remember one of
(02:51):
them actually, which I was thinking about earlier, was when
I was in the yard and I was doing these
like word fines or some other kind of puzzles, and
this senior moungel mob guy came up to me. The
skuy Yogi. That's a great name for a month mold memory,
a yogi full facial tattoo's serving nineteen years for armed
robberies and escapes and more armed robberies than that. And
(03:12):
he came up to me, and I remember saying to me, Hey,
stop doing stuff like that. It's a waste of time.
You've got to start, you know, focusing on things that
will make you stronger and more powerful, things that will
make it so that the guards can't take advantage of
you in here, and so that you can have a
better time. And so he was the first person who
I really listened to who was actually encouraging me to
(03:33):
spend my time getting an education. He was the first
sort of like what you call bush lawyer that i'd
came across, you know, someone who knows all the prison
rules and regulations and so can use that as a
way of having a sense of control and empowerment in
a very disempowered environment. And so there are bits like that.
There are other bits with other people who encouraged me
when I was in our toughest maximum security block, and Perimeremu,
(03:56):
one of the Hole in the Wall gang members organized
crime was also you know, shifted me on this path further.
So there are all these moments, but the reality is
is it's just this collection of small steps that leads
you a long way over time, and it's often nonlinear, right,
Like you go in this direction, you slip back like
the stuff I do now. I never knew it was
a possibility when I was in prison, so I wasn't
(04:18):
aiming for it.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, prison at eighteen, Yeah, how was the first How
was the first man night? Do you remember the first
night I lie the movies.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah, it is a lot.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
The first night of an eleven years. We were talking
eleven year sentence here.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, well I was given it was even worse than that,
in the respect that I was given a ten year
minimum non parole period, which meant that I wasn't even
going to go to parole until I'd served ten years.
And at that time, at eighteen, like, I hadn't had
enough life experience to be able to conceptualize ten years,
ten years forever at that age. You know, I'm nearly fifty.
Now I can look at ten years and go, I
(04:56):
understand what that is. At that age, I was like, Okay,
this is my new night, this is it. But actually
I was going through drug withdrawal in those early days,
so my only focus was on, oh my gosh, let
this be a nightmare. Let me wake up from this,
Let this not be the case. Yeah, it was just
it was just too intense. I mean again, I was
in there because I had killed someone. That had been
(05:17):
an insanely intense experience. You know, I had, I had
been attacked, but I'd gone way beyond what was required
of me in terms of self defense and I certainly
earned me in my place in the New Zealand prison system.
Didn't see it that way at the time, right, but
that's what happened. But the intensity of that, the intensity
of everything that was going on in my life at
that time, meant that I really wasn't in a good
(05:39):
position to be able to do anything other than just
try to close my eyes and hope that I could
wake up and this and be over. And then you know,
once I got into it a little bit more, that's
when I was like, Okay, well, this is my new life.
I just got to focus on this. And then you know,
a few years into it, when I had that opportunity
and I had encouragement like people from Yogi, Like I said,
(06:00):
his was more so that I could be more empowered
within the prison. It wasn't like a pro social thing, right,
but getting by. Yeah. But the thing is is you
don't wait for a motivation. Motivation often actually comes after
you've started taking the steps. And so for me, I'm
just really glad that I started down that road and
then my motivation shifted and changed as part of that.
(06:22):
You just got to start taking action.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Eh, you reformed?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Do you think some people do you think everybody has
the potential to reform or do you think some people
don't know?
Speaker 3 (06:33):
But I think they're unusual. I think there are some
people who have such deep neurological damage and differences that
they're comparable. For me, like if you imagine, you know,
you know, you've got animal control, right, You've got heaps
of stray dogs who just need an owner who loves
them and who cares them and looks after them. That's
comparable with the vast majority of people in prison. But
(06:55):
you also have the occasional rabbit dog that's just had
such a life and such an experience that it's just
going to be an ongoing danger. There are people like that.
I look at the prison evolutionist movement and I understand it,
and I think it's really well intended, But I also
think they don't know people who I know, and there
are some people who I've come across in prison, and
again I just want to emphasize this, they're the exception
(07:16):
in the prison environments. Those hardcore psychopaths stand out. Even
within prison. You can see them. Wow, the vast majority
of people there because they've made bad choices, often related
to drug use. If you haven't been around drug addiction,
it's really hard to understand how much it robs you
of your humanity. And so many people you can come
(07:37):
back from that. There are so many people who do
manage to get past that live better lives. But then
you'll just get these hardcore people who it's much harder
to bring them back. And one of the things that
I despair about is like the young people who end
up in maximum security prison. The higher your security level,
the more distorted the world is that you live in,
and the less it prepares you to actually be a
(07:58):
functional member of society upon release.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Jerry and Manaia showing the conflate the Hodaki Breakfast discussion
group on Facebook. For more Jeremy Wells and Manaia Stuart
find them on Instagram at Hodarki Breakfast.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
That's something I thought about because they often talk about,
you know, some people you like yourself, you put them
into that environment that young they are now being taught
by you know, the best and brightest in the criminal underworld.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, one hundred percent, and that's what often happens. One
of the things we know from the longitudinal research around
it is that one of the worst things you can
do to help young people. Most young people late teens,
early twenties stop criminal offending is by putting them in prison,
exposing them to gangs, those sorts of things. I mean,
it's so distressing that environment. Like if I look back
(08:46):
on it, if you've got a young person who goes in,
if you're in the North Island, if you're a Maordy
or Pacific Islander, you going particularly Maldi rape, but Pacific Islanders.
Where you go in, you know, the predominant gang's going
to come up to you, which will either be Uncle
Morb with the black Pow, maybe the Nomad's depending on
where you are, maybe it's the killer bees, you know whatever.
And my experience of it will be they go up
(09:08):
to these young people and they're very much like, hey,
you're with us or you're going to have a very
hard time in here. And what you're with us often
means is we're going to brand you with a gang
tetor on your face. You tell me what your chances are.
I'm a parent myself, right, I think of my kids.
They are not being raised to end up in that environment.
(09:28):
But if you're the parent of a kid who ends
up in that environment, and then you come to visit
them and they've got a gang teto on their face,
and all this was It's just so bad. That's why
I'm such a believer in making sure that we do
everything we can to keep at risk young people out
of that environment in the first place. By the time
then in president, you know you've missed the best opportunities
for good early intervention. You know, one of the things
(09:51):
I'm trying to do with this book is help parents
and help young people more quickly and more effectively figure out, Hey,
what's the path forward for me? And be less caught
up in that you have been raised by the streets,
been raised by the Internet, looking to all the wrong
sources for who it is you need to be, to
be respected, to be accepted and valued, all of those things.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, Paul, in your opinion, you know you were talking
before about because I think for some people they don't
know whether prisons are about rehabilitating prisoners to make sure
they don't commit any more crimes, or punishing crimes and
making sure that the victims feel vindicated of the crime.
(10:36):
Do you know what I mean? Of course, I think
that's the thing that's going on. And so in society,
have we sussed out what prisons are actually for yet
or are they because they don't seem to do either
particularly well.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
No, And I think that's such a good point, Jeremy.
I really don't think that as a society we've had
a really clear, honest conversation around what are the outcomes
we expect from people going to prison. And by the way,
you know, like if you've been a victim of crime
at all, it's completely understandable that you'd want people to
be punished. The idea, the legislative idea, is that the
removal from society is the punishment. But the actual tensions
(11:11):
that you've got to manage for the Department of Corrections
are to rehabilitate, to prepare you so that you can
be released and be a functioning member of society. But
the other one is security, and so it's not actually
about punishment per se. It's about making sure that you
cannot commit further crimes while you're in prison, that you're
not a risk to the community. And the problem is,
(11:33):
how do you achieve rehabilitation You give people the skills
and opportunities to practice making better choices. How do you
achieve security? You remove all the choices from people. And
so there's this big tension, right, And the reality is is,
unfortunately corrections is going to get in a lot more trouble.
They're going to get called into the minister's office if
they end up in the front page of the paper
(11:55):
because someone took advantage of some opportunity they had and
you know, escaped or did whatever they did. Whereas you know,
no one's getting called in the minister's office because okay,
there were no escapes today or anything like that. And
so I think security tends to be the priority, understandably
but unfortunately really counterproductively.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, Paul, we could. I could talk to you for hours, yes,
but we don't. Don't have to do Jerry, you can
read the book. So your book is your third book.
Is that it never stops. And I guess that's about
self improvement, yeah, and about recognizing the self improvement that
(12:38):
you can have in every situation.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
And every year of your life, right, I mean professionally
and personally. And a big part of it is too
is you know, as a species, we're driven to strive. Okay,
we want to get better stuff. That's why we have technology.
We can't help ourselves as a species. We're wired for it.
But one of the things, unfortunately that we often do
in modern life is we strive for the wrong things.
We place value on the wrong things. We assume that
(13:03):
this will give us satisfaction or what have you, or
when we get to this point, will be satisfied, whereas
actually you can learn a lot about how to have
a far better time on the journey in a way
that doesn't deprive you of your ambition and wanting to
get tangible external reward and outcomes in advancement, but just
makes you more satisfied and a better person and happier
(13:25):
with yourself along the way. That's sort of really what
the book's about. And part of that is the social investment. Hey,
having a better idea about how to invest in our
relationships as we pursue our potential professionally and otherwise.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Doctor Paul, would I've got a question for you, and
you might not be able to answer this, but knowing
where you are now today and I'm looking at a
man who seems like a very enlightened man, an intelligent man,
would you make exactly those same choices that lead you
to get to that point? Knowing what you know now
(13:58):
or would you not make those same choices.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I would have to not make those same choices, not
for myself and my own benefit, but to reduce the
harm I caused to other people along the way. That's
what I would say, because I don't regret anything I've experienced,
because it's made me who I am, and I believe
it's increased my capacity to positively impact other people through
my own experience. Today, However, there were multiple people who
(14:27):
were unnecessarily and unfairly hurt as part of my learning journey,
and it would be on the basis of that that
I would er towards that I would make different choices
and I would find a different path for being of
service to the community.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It's a fascinating story. It's been a great pleasure to
chat to you, doctor Paul. Thank you so much for
your time.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Such a pleasure. Thanks guys, SII
Speaker 1 (14:49):
And Maniah match the radio show from six till ten weekdays,
The Hidarchy Breakfast
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