October 6, 2025 • 16 mins
POISONING THE WELL: How Forever Chemicals Contaminated America takes a look at the toxic chemicals PFAS, and how they’ve become permanently embedded in our soil, our water, and our bodies. Authors Sharon Udasin and Rachel Frazin discuss the controversy and consequences. Sharon Udasin is a staff reporter for The Hill, covering Western climate and policy. She was the recipient of a 2022 SEAL Environmental Journalism Award, and spent nearly a decade in Israel, reporting on environment, energy, and agriculture for The Jerusalem Post. Rachel Frazin covers energy and environment policy for The Hill. Her work has also appeared in the Chicago Sun-Times, The Daily Beast, the Tampa Bay Times, and elsewhere.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Get connected with Nina del Rio, a weekly
conversation about fitness, health and happenings in our community on
one oh six point seven light FM.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to get connected. Maybe you've heard about forever chemicals
in the soil, in the water. Were you aware they're
also in you? Pollutants embedded into our everyday sources, from
frying pans to mascara, Deeply embedded in our systems and
our lives permanently. But what are forever chemicals and what
are their consequences? Our guests are Sharon Judison and Rachel Frasen,
(00:33):
authors of Poisoning the Well. How forever chemicals Contaminated America.
Sharon Judison and Rachel Frasen, thank you for being on
the show. Thanks for having Sharon Judison is a staff
reporter for The Hill covering Western climate and policy. She
was the recipient of a twenty twenty two Seal Environmental
Journalism Award. She spent nearly a decade in Israel reporting
on environment, energy, and agriculture for The Jerusalem Post and
(00:57):
Rachel Frasen covers energy and environment policy for The Hill.
Her work has also appeared in The Chicago Sun Times,
The Daily Beast, the Tampa Bay Times and elsewhere. So
to the book, most of us have pfas coursing through
our veins. That's the premise. What are these things and
what are they most likely to be in that we're
using every day.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
So that acronym PFAS or p FOS is for per
and polychloro alkyl substances, and those are about fifteen thousand
synthetic organo fluorine compounds, synthetic meaning man made compounds, and
they're in many household items such as waterproof fabrics, nonstick pans, cosmetics,
(01:40):
certain types of firefighting foams. And they've also been incredibly
convenient because of their water and stained resistant properties, and
that has made them useful in critical things like medical devices,
first responder gear, and semiconductors.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
One of the points you make in the book, they
were also in a lot of the COVID masks. Everybody
bought the three M COVID masks, so we were breathing
those in and we're getting them in many different ways.
Can you talk about, yeah, a little bit more about
that miracle quality that has made them so ubiquitous. Sense
I guess the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Nonstick things are really useful. They've got military applications. I
think one of the first applications was in the atom
bomb to sort of prevent corrosion because it's a very
stable chemical. But like Sharon said, they're used in heart valves,
They're used in dental floss, they're used in you know,
paper products, anything that doesn't crumble in water when maybe
you normally think that it would. This is really useful,
you know, both in consumer products that we use, you know,
(02:32):
as well as waterproof makeup.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
It's nice when your makeup blasts all day. But you know,
at the.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Same time, there are consequences to all of this because unfortunately,
these chemicals persist forever. They last for hundreds or even
thousands of years in the environment. But they also have
been linked to a wide range of illnesses. Cancers, kidney problems,
diroid issues, fertility issues, immune system problems, the list goes on.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
It's very interesting. So this is not news. This information
that they have been causing health problems. It's known back
as far as the nineteen fifties. Researchers started seeing issues
with people in like Decatur, Alabama, for instance, which is
where the stories began. Can you talk a little bit
about what people were seeing even back then.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
So in the fifties and sixties, studies were beginning to emerge,
you know, for one thing, linking it to sort of
a polymer fume fever or teflon flu where people, you know,
in the fifties there were documented cases or people who
were sort of exposed to heated teflon developed flu like symptoms.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
You know.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
In the sixties, studies began to emerge, you know, linking
it in animals to health impacts, you know, problems with rats,
livers and other body parts, problems with dog livers, you know,
and this was in studies conducted by the chemical companies,
you know, DuPont was finding it, you know, causing problems
in dog livers. By the nineteen seventies, we had evidence
(03:50):
that it was building up. Independent scientists were finding that
evidence that fluorine, which isn't possible indicator of prefas, was
building up in the general population, just in workers at
these factories, but also in regular people.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Throughout the book, you have these repeated stories of these
localities where people are working with these chemicals, they become sick,
the area becomes contaminated, and yet the companies tend to
sort of respond in the same way. Let's maybe just
use Decatur, Alabama as an example. How did they respond
over time to all these issues.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
One of the industries there, THREEM, opened the site on
Tennessee River, as you said, near Decatur in nineteen sixty one,
and this, as we showed, it was upstream from Brenda Hampton,
one of our protagonists town. And by nineteen seventy six
THREEM had found a type of pipas in a Decatur
workers blood and then again in several employees in nineteen
(04:47):
seventy nine, and by the nineteen nineties, THREEM scientists their
cited interests and possible health risks to workers. And there's
been like a kind of an on and off flage
back and forth with Alabama's Environmental Department, which has very
loose restrictions and an interesting relationship with industry in the region.
(05:11):
It's honestly been relatively lax. The EPA eventually came in
and started doing tests of the region, but it's just
so contaminated there, like the discharges were going directly into
the water supply from the river of these small communities,
and what I find to be really really striking is
(05:34):
that a lot of the people in Brenda's community work
for the industries, so it's like this just this cycle
going around. It was really really kind of heartbreaking to
see the amount of devastation that has happened in the
small towns.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Our guests are Sharon Udison and Rachel Frasen. They are
authors of Poisoning the Well, How Forever chemicals Contaminated America.
You're listening to get connected on one O six point
seven light FM. Amina del Rio. As I was reading,
especially the first part of this book, when you're talking
about all the issues Indicator, there's that old saying. You know,
you can't fight city hall, and you wonder why the
(06:13):
local governments or the Alabama Department of Environmental Management or
the EPA allow these things to continue. Can you talk
a little bit about, even beyond Decatur, about how these
governments seem to work in tandem with the companies at
some level, it just seems like it's the path of
least resistance.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
At the federal level, you know a lot of it
is politics and political will. And you know, when the
EPA first became aware of this problem in like the
late nineties or at least became aware of how widespread
the problem was. Their sort of strategy was to work
with the chemical manufacturers. I mean, they did sue DuPont
(06:51):
and three M and collect settlements, and the settlement that
they collected against DuPont was the biggest administrative penalty.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
The EPA had ever issued at that time.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
But at the same time, you know, these companies have
been making billions of dollars off these products for decades, so.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
You know, maybe a drop in the bucket compared to
all that.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
But they also one of the things that they did
was they worked with the manufacturers to say, hey, let's
phase out the use of one of these chemicals, PFOA
by twenty fifteen. And it was effective, but it took
a long time because you know, they came up with
this deal in the mid two thousands. It took you know,
maybe ten years or so to go from striking a
(07:31):
deal to getting these out of commerce. Meanwhile, you and
I have continued to use the products that we already
have and some of the new products they were still
making for all of that time. But you know, it
can be a challenge politically, it can be a challenge,
you know, in terms of inflation. People don't like inflation,
and regulations ultimately do cause inflation. So it's complicated in
(07:54):
some of these more local areas. You know, a lot
of the local economies are based on some of these factories.
You know, same thing with the military, a lot of
you know, in a lot of the places too, there's
military contamination. It's a lot of areas where people work
in the military, and so it's sort of a complicated
connected nexus of all of this.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I'd like to talk about one other example, the farmlands
with the sludge. Heard a little bit about it the news,
But how did it end up in farms? Why was
it being used by farmers and for what?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
So we use mean as an example in a book,
but it could apply to various other regions, as you said,
throughout the country, particularly places that have large scale agriculture.
So sludge are the semi solids that are left over
after sewage treatment. In mein that comes from paper mills,
but it can come from other places as well. And
what happens is in the water treatment, the process removes solids,
(08:44):
but it doesn't remove environmental contaminants necessarily, like PIFAs. And
what happened was utilities water utilities who were left behind
with the sludge basically pedaled it for free to farmers
as a win wind. The utilities didn't have to pay
land filling costs and farmers got fertilizer for free. And
(09:05):
in the case of Maine, it was it occurred with
the huge support of the state itself because Maine was
struggling with a shortage in dump space due to a
ban on new private dumping sites in nineteen eighty nine,
so that there it was just occurring in such high
levels because it had the support of local utilities and
the state, and farmers said, oh great, so we're getting
(09:28):
a free nutritious fertilizer. They had no idea, and then
it slathered all over the farmlands and it has now
gotten into dairy cows, into crops, you know, even like
running off into rivers and getting into fish. So the
problems have been so pervasive with lunch.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So what do we know about It's one thing to
think about somebody who works at a plant indicator and
ends up with bladder issues or kidney disease or something,
because you're in touch with these things all the time.
When something goes from the sledge to the field, to
the cou to us, what is the.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Impact really, Scientists are really studying a lot of these
emerging details and the exposure roots. But that said, there
are do not fish advisories in a lot of places,
like in main There's also do not hunt deer advisories
in certain places because the deer are considered contaminated. And
(10:23):
I think that scientists don't yet exactly know what the
how toxic it is when it's at that third level
and you're consuming it. But I think we're at the
point where people, at least the scientists want to would
rather be safe than sorry. I say, at least the scientists,
because people are free to make their own choices. For example,
(10:46):
in Alabama, like near the Wheeler Dam on the Tennessee River,
there are some signs, like you know nearby saying hey,
don't fish, but there are a lot of people ignoring
those signs and choosing to fish anyway.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
There's also so much, so many products, so many things
we use that have these chemicals in them, whether you're
talking about receipts, you're talking about the masks. How do
you know when something that you would use on an
everyday basis has the chemicals in them.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Well, part of the problem is that you don't if
you have never heard of this and you don't do
the research. But I think for me as a consumer,
some of the buzzwords that I really make sure I'm
paying attention to are things that are nonstick, waterproof, sweatproof,
grease resistant, stain resistant, basically anything.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
That's meant to repel water or liquids. I know, for me, if.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
I'm looking at some of these products that that's a
red flag that I know, okay, I have to look
and see and try to figure out, you know, does
this have p fass in it? And you know, I
think that the companies who work in these industries that
make these products, if they are using p fast free products,
they'll want to advertise that.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Right.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
So if you make a nonstick pan that is free
of all p fasts, you know that's going to make
a lot of money.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
So you know, you'll want to tell people about that.
And if a.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Company is not transparent, you can give them a call
and say, hey, is there PFASs in this? But it's
in so many things and it can be so hard
to keep track of, you know. I think another thing
for me is a consumer, are things that I try
to avoid are things that where I can ingest it
or inhale it, or it's going to sort of touch
my blood. I think an example of that that I
like to give is dental floss. You know, I think
(12:21):
sometimes when people floss, you know, touches their gums and
it can bleed, especially if you haven't flossed.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
In a while.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
And so I know that I look for p fast
free floss because that's something that it can get into
my bloodstream if it you know, if I bleed and
I touch the p fass to my blood, it can
sort of then get into my body. So I think that,
you know, obviously there's sort of the ethical question of
you know, if you buy these products, are you hurting
people like the people indicator who are in that area,
(12:48):
who live downstream. But then there's sort of also the
personal question and if you're going to prioritize, you know,
maybe do well and who could by making sure that
you are, you know, avoiding things that can really get
into your body. I've swapped out my non stick pants
personally for stainless steel. Cast iron is also good.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
We're kind of at this moment too, where regulation is
being pulled back. That has to do a bit with
the federal government who's overseeing things at this moment. Is
there anyone outside the federal government who's really sort of
following us, who's holding companies and governments to account that
we can kind of look to for some guidance as well.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Well, I'd say certain states are I mentioned Maine before,
which is one of the most polluted pipas states, but
they also are among the most advanced in terms of legislation,
and New York has.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Gotten better too.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
In New York became, you know, the first state to
regulate pifoa as a hazardous substance in twenty sixteen. So
my point is is, I think, regardless of what happens
with the federal administrations, we're going to have to look
to states in the coming years. But again, that also
presents a little bit of an environmental justice issue because
(13:59):
if you're in Alabama versus if you're in New York,
you're going to have different regulations.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You do to make the points, the pollution is not
distributed equally. Certain communities have much more it than others.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
You know, information is also not distributed equitably, Like when
the pollution problems came to light. In North Carolina for example,
which we talk about in the book. We think that
you know, the people who were on the city water
were sort of first made aware that okay, the city
water is contaminated and that they work to find a solution.
But people who are on private wells, who often are
(14:29):
more rural people, but who also are you know, maybe
less resourced. You know, we're not made aware that, hey,
this is also just sort of in the groundwater, and
you know, the problem is coming to light for them
a little bit later. So it's you know, in terms
of equity, there's you know, sort of the I guess
environmental justice or you know, racial and economic inequities.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
You know, in terms of across the board, you.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Know, access to medical care, access to information, access to
you know, being on the public water system versus the
private water system. But also going back to your question
of politics, if you'll humor me, I think that we
are in an interesting moment, and you know, I want
to note that we're not necessarily powerless, and that in
the federal government, even you know, among the Republican Party
(15:14):
there's sort of two I guess how I see it,
as you know, differing factions. You have the industry people,
and Republicans typically have aligned with big business and big industry,
and at the EPA they have put a lot of
former chemistry chemical industry people into key positions. But there
is also sort of this make America Healthy Again movement,
(15:36):
and you know, that movement might not necessarily follow mainstream
science as far as vaccines, but they are also very
wary and cautious of the chemicals that they are ingesting.
And so I think as far as pfast goes, you know,
that is one that RFK Junior has been outspoken about.
And so I think it's sort of too soon to
say whether or not the Trump administration is going to
(15:56):
roll back or the extent to which they're going to
roll back some of the biden Our regulations on this.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
There is much more in the book Poisoning the Well,
How Forever Chemicals Contaminated America. Our guests are Sharon Udison
and Rachel Frasen. Thank you for being on the show,
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
This has been get connected with Nina del Rio on
one oh six point seven Light FM. The views and
opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views
of the station. If you missed any part of our
show or want to share it, Visit our website for
downloads and podcasts at one O six to seven lightfm
dot com. Thanks for listening.
Welcome to Get connected with Nina del Rio, a weekly
conversation about fitness, health and happenings in our community on
one oh six point seven light FM.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to get connected. Maybe you've heard about forever chemicals
in the soil, in the water. Were you aware they're
also in you? Pollutants embedded into our everyday sources, from
frying pans to mascara, Deeply embedded in our systems and
our lives permanently. But what are forever chemicals and what
are their consequences? Our guests are Sharon Judison and Rachel Frasen,
(00:33):
authors of Poisoning the Well. How forever chemicals Contaminated America.
Sharon Judison and Rachel Frasen, thank you for being on
the show. Thanks for having Sharon Judison is a staff
reporter for The Hill covering Western climate and policy. She
was the recipient of a twenty twenty two Seal Environmental
Journalism Award. She spent nearly a decade in Israel reporting
on environment, energy, and agriculture for The Jerusalem Post and
(00:57):
Rachel Frasen covers energy and environment policy for The Hill.
Her work has also appeared in The Chicago Sun Times,
The Daily Beast, the Tampa Bay Times and elsewhere. So
to the book, most of us have pfas coursing through
our veins. That's the premise. What are these things and
what are they most likely to be in that we're
using every day.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
So that acronym PFAS or p FOS is for per
and polychloro alkyl substances, and those are about fifteen thousand
synthetic organo fluorine compounds, synthetic meaning man made compounds, and
they're in many household items such as waterproof fabrics, nonstick pans, cosmetics,
(01:40):
certain types of firefighting foams. And they've also been incredibly
convenient because of their water and stained resistant properties, and
that has made them useful in critical things like medical devices,
first responder gear, and semiconductors.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
One of the points you make in the book, they
were also in a lot of the COVID masks. Everybody
bought the three M COVID masks, so we were breathing
those in and we're getting them in many different ways.
Can you talk about, yeah, a little bit more about
that miracle quality that has made them so ubiquitous. Sense
I guess the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
Nonstick things are really useful. They've got military applications. I
think one of the first applications was in the atom
bomb to sort of prevent corrosion because it's a very
stable chemical. But like Sharon said, they're used in heart valves,
They're used in dental floss, they're used in you know,
paper products, anything that doesn't crumble in water when maybe
you normally think that it would. This is really useful,
you know, both in consumer products that we use, you know,
(02:32):
as well as waterproof makeup.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
It's nice when your makeup blasts all day. But you know,
at the.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Same time, there are consequences to all of this because unfortunately,
these chemicals persist forever. They last for hundreds or even
thousands of years in the environment. But they also have
been linked to a wide range of illnesses. Cancers, kidney problems,
diroid issues, fertility issues, immune system problems, the list goes on.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
It's very interesting. So this is not news. This information
that they have been causing health problems. It's known back
as far as the nineteen fifties. Researchers started seeing issues
with people in like Decatur, Alabama, for instance, which is
where the stories began. Can you talk a little bit
about what people were seeing even back then.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
So in the fifties and sixties, studies were beginning to emerge,
you know, for one thing, linking it to sort of
a polymer fume fever or teflon flu where people, you know,
in the fifties there were documented cases or people who
were sort of exposed to heated teflon developed flu like symptoms.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
You know.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
In the sixties, studies began to emerge, you know, linking
it in animals to health impacts, you know, problems with rats,
livers and other body parts, problems with dog livers, you know,
and this was in studies conducted by the chemical companies,
you know, DuPont was finding it, you know, causing problems
in dog livers. By the nineteen seventies, we had evidence
(03:50):
that it was building up. Independent scientists were finding that
evidence that fluorine, which isn't possible indicator of prefas, was
building up in the general population, just in workers at
these factories, but also in regular people.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Throughout the book, you have these repeated stories of these
localities where people are working with these chemicals, they become sick,
the area becomes contaminated, and yet the companies tend to
sort of respond in the same way. Let's maybe just
use Decatur, Alabama as an example. How did they respond
over time to all these issues.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
One of the industries there, THREEM, opened the site on
Tennessee River, as you said, near Decatur in nineteen sixty one,
and this, as we showed, it was upstream from Brenda Hampton,
one of our protagonists town. And by nineteen seventy six
THREEM had found a type of pipas in a Decatur
workers blood and then again in several employees in nineteen
(04:47):
seventy nine, and by the nineteen nineties, THREEM scientists their
cited interests and possible health risks to workers. And there's
been like a kind of an on and off flage
back and forth with Alabama's Environmental Department, which has very
loose restrictions and an interesting relationship with industry in the region.
(05:11):
It's honestly been relatively lax. The EPA eventually came in
and started doing tests of the region, but it's just
so contaminated there, like the discharges were going directly into
the water supply from the river of these small communities,
and what I find to be really really striking is
(05:34):
that a lot of the people in Brenda's community work
for the industries, so it's like this just this cycle
going around. It was really really kind of heartbreaking to
see the amount of devastation that has happened in the
small towns.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Our guests are Sharon Udison and Rachel Frasen. They are
authors of Poisoning the Well, How Forever chemicals Contaminated America.
You're listening to get connected on one O six point
seven light FM. Amina del Rio. As I was reading,
especially the first part of this book, when you're talking
about all the issues Indicator, there's that old saying. You know,
you can't fight city hall, and you wonder why the
(06:13):
local governments or the Alabama Department of Environmental Management or
the EPA allow these things to continue. Can you talk
a little bit about, even beyond Decatur, about how these
governments seem to work in tandem with the companies at
some level, it just seems like it's the path of
least resistance.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
At the federal level, you know a lot of it
is politics and political will. And you know, when the
EPA first became aware of this problem in like the
late nineties or at least became aware of how widespread
the problem was. Their sort of strategy was to work
with the chemical manufacturers. I mean, they did sue DuPont
(06:51):
and three M and collect settlements, and the settlement that
they collected against DuPont was the biggest administrative penalty.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
The EPA had ever issued at that time.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
But at the same time, you know, these companies have
been making billions of dollars off these products for decades, so.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
You know, maybe a drop in the bucket compared to
all that.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
But they also one of the things that they did
was they worked with the manufacturers to say, hey, let's
phase out the use of one of these chemicals, PFOA
by twenty fifteen. And it was effective, but it took
a long time because you know, they came up with
this deal in the mid two thousands. It took you know,
maybe ten years or so to go from striking a
(07:31):
deal to getting these out of commerce. Meanwhile, you and
I have continued to use the products that we already
have and some of the new products they were still
making for all of that time. But you know, it
can be a challenge politically, it can be a challenge,
you know, in terms of inflation. People don't like inflation,
and regulations ultimately do cause inflation. So it's complicated in
(07:54):
some of these more local areas. You know, a lot
of the local economies are based on some of these factories.
You know, same thing with the military, a lot of
you know, in a lot of the places too, there's
military contamination. It's a lot of areas where people work
in the military, and so it's sort of a complicated
connected nexus of all of this.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I'd like to talk about one other example, the farmlands
with the sludge. Heard a little bit about it the news,
But how did it end up in farms? Why was
it being used by farmers and for what?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
So we use mean as an example in a book,
but it could apply to various other regions, as you said,
throughout the country, particularly places that have large scale agriculture.
So sludge are the semi solids that are left over
after sewage treatment. In mein that comes from paper mills,
but it can come from other places as well. And
what happens is in the water treatment, the process removes solids,
(08:44):
but it doesn't remove environmental contaminants necessarily, like PIFAs. And
what happened was utilities water utilities who were left behind
with the sludge basically pedaled it for free to farmers
as a win wind. The utilities didn't have to pay
land filling costs and farmers got fertilizer for free. And
(09:05):
in the case of Maine, it was it occurred with
the huge support of the state itself because Maine was
struggling with a shortage in dump space due to a
ban on new private dumping sites in nineteen eighty nine,
so that there it was just occurring in such high
levels because it had the support of local utilities and
the state, and farmers said, oh great, so we're getting
(09:28):
a free nutritious fertilizer. They had no idea, and then
it slathered all over the farmlands and it has now
gotten into dairy cows, into crops, you know, even like
running off into rivers and getting into fish. So the
problems have been so pervasive with lunch.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So what do we know about It's one thing to
think about somebody who works at a plant indicator and
ends up with bladder issues or kidney disease or something,
because you're in touch with these things all the time.
When something goes from the sledge to the field, to
the cou to us, what is the.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Impact really, Scientists are really studying a lot of these
emerging details and the exposure roots. But that said, there
are do not fish advisories in a lot of places,
like in main There's also do not hunt deer advisories
in certain places because the deer are considered contaminated. And
(10:23):
I think that scientists don't yet exactly know what the
how toxic it is when it's at that third level
and you're consuming it. But I think we're at the
point where people, at least the scientists want to would
rather be safe than sorry. I say, at least the scientists,
because people are free to make their own choices. For example,
(10:46):
in Alabama, like near the Wheeler Dam on the Tennessee River,
there are some signs, like you know nearby saying hey,
don't fish, but there are a lot of people ignoring
those signs and choosing to fish anyway.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
There's also so much, so many products, so many things
we use that have these chemicals in them, whether you're
talking about receipts, you're talking about the masks. How do
you know when something that you would use on an
everyday basis has the chemicals in them.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Well, part of the problem is that you don't if
you have never heard of this and you don't do
the research. But I think for me as a consumer,
some of the buzzwords that I really make sure I'm
paying attention to are things that are nonstick, waterproof, sweatproof,
grease resistant, stain resistant, basically anything.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
That's meant to repel water or liquids. I know, for me, if.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
I'm looking at some of these products that that's a
red flag that I know, okay, I have to look
and see and try to figure out, you know, does
this have p fass in it? And you know, I
think that the companies who work in these industries that
make these products, if they are using p fast free products,
they'll want to advertise that.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
Right.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
So if you make a nonstick pan that is free
of all p fasts, you know that's going to make
a lot of money.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
So you know, you'll want to tell people about that.
And if a.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Company is not transparent, you can give them a call
and say, hey, is there PFASs in this? But it's
in so many things and it can be so hard
to keep track of, you know. I think another thing
for me is a consumer, are things that I try
to avoid are things that where I can ingest it
or inhale it, or it's going to sort of touch
my blood. I think an example of that that I
like to give is dental floss. You know, I think
(12:21):
sometimes when people floss, you know, touches their gums and
it can bleed, especially if you haven't flossed.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
In a while.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
And so I know that I look for p fast
free floss because that's something that it can get into
my bloodstream if it you know, if I bleed and
I touch the p fass to my blood, it can
sort of then get into my body. So I think that,
you know, obviously there's sort of the ethical question of
you know, if you buy these products, are you hurting
people like the people indicator who are in that area,
(12:48):
who live downstream. But then there's sort of also the
personal question and if you're going to prioritize, you know,
maybe do well and who could by making sure that
you are, you know, avoiding things that can really get
into your body. I've swapped out my non stick pants
personally for stainless steel. Cast iron is also good.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
We're kind of at this moment too, where regulation is
being pulled back. That has to do a bit with
the federal government who's overseeing things at this moment. Is
there anyone outside the federal government who's really sort of
following us, who's holding companies and governments to account that
we can kind of look to for some guidance as well.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Well, I'd say certain states are I mentioned Maine before,
which is one of the most polluted pipas states, but
they also are among the most advanced in terms of legislation,
and New York has.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Gotten better too.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
In New York became, you know, the first state to
regulate pifoa as a hazardous substance in twenty sixteen. So
my point is is, I think, regardless of what happens
with the federal administrations, we're going to have to look
to states in the coming years. But again, that also
presents a little bit of an environmental justice issue because
(13:59):
if you're in Alabama versus if you're in New York,
you're going to have different regulations.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You do to make the points, the pollution is not
distributed equally. Certain communities have much more it than others.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
You know, information is also not distributed equitably, Like when
the pollution problems came to light. In North Carolina for example,
which we talk about in the book. We think that
you know, the people who were on the city water
were sort of first made aware that okay, the city
water is contaminated and that they work to find a solution.
But people who are on private wells, who often are
(14:29):
more rural people, but who also are you know, maybe
less resourced. You know, we're not made aware that, hey,
this is also just sort of in the groundwater, and
you know, the problem is coming to light for them
a little bit later. So it's you know, in terms
of equity, there's you know, sort of the I guess
environmental justice or you know, racial and economic inequities.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
You know, in terms of across the board, you.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Know, access to medical care, access to information, access to
you know, being on the public water system versus the
private water system. But also going back to your question
of politics, if you'll humor me, I think that we
are in an interesting moment, and you know, I want
to note that we're not necessarily powerless, and that in
the federal government, even you know, among the Republican Party
(15:14):
there's sort of two I guess how I see it,
as you know, differing factions. You have the industry people,
and Republicans typically have aligned with big business and big industry,
and at the EPA they have put a lot of
former chemistry chemical industry people into key positions. But there
is also sort of this make America Healthy Again movement,
(15:36):
and you know, that movement might not necessarily follow mainstream
science as far as vaccines, but they are also very
wary and cautious of the chemicals that they are ingesting.
And so I think as far as pfast goes, you know,
that is one that RFK Junior has been outspoken about.
And so I think it's sort of too soon to
say whether or not the Trump administration is going to
(15:56):
roll back or the extent to which they're going to
roll back some of the biden Our regulations on this.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
There is much more in the book Poisoning the Well,
How Forever Chemicals Contaminated America. Our guests are Sharon Udison
and Rachel Frasen. Thank you for being on the show,
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
This has been get connected with Nina del Rio on
one oh six point seven Light FM. The views and
opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views
of the station. If you missed any part of our
show or want to share it, Visit our website for
downloads and podcasts at one O six to seven lightfm
dot com. Thanks for listening.
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