April 11, 2026 • 29 mins
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Michael Berry Show. I was offered the opportunity to
interview a gentleman by the name of GiB Kerr, and
he's written a book called Uncanceled Robert E.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
You have my attention, GiB Kerr. Welcome to the program, gibb.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good boy, Michael. Yes, sir, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yes, sir. First of all, tell me why write this book?
What is your interest in this movement?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I wrote this book after Robert E. Lee was unfairly
canceled by the Woe Mom in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one.
You remember the statues coming down in Charlottesville and Richmond,
and you know, I don't think that it was this
was in response to cancel like we're talking about there,
(00:51):
trying to erase history, to kind of take what I
call the serve pro approach to history, like nothing ever
happened before.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Seeing that with.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
The radicals throughout history, the French Revolution, they they did
away with the calendar and started with year zero, is
that nothing had ever happened before. We saw it with
the Chinese Cultural Revolution, and it really started here in America.
I trace it back really to Obama when he said
he wanted to fundamentally transform America. We found out what
(01:22):
that meant, you know, meant teaching our kids to to
to be ashamed of their past and to be ashamed
of the founding fathers and everything that made America great.
And we've been through turmoil, I mean, to the We've
went two years where people were kneeling for the national anthem,
and on and on and on and but you know,
(01:42):
like every radical movement before it, the American Cultural Revolution,
I think finally went too far, and now it's flaming
out and we're in the middle of, thankfully, I think
a great restoration of American values and restoring Robert E. Lee,
I think is poort a component of that.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Roberty Lee's contributions, service, sacrifice have not been forgotten to
history by neglect. They've been intentionally obscured and erased. Why
do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
You know, Lee was widely held as a hero North
and South up until you know, recently as twenty or
thirty years ago. But I think it really I think
he traced it back to modern academia. You know, higher
education has been completely taken over by leftists and historians
like Howard Zen. You've probably heard of Howard Zen, the
(02:42):
Marxist historian who wrote the book People's History of the
United States. And Howard Zen said that history is a
weapon as a direct quote from him, and that he
saw history as a quiet revolution to take over the
institutions from within. And so now you have historians that
dominate universities. Almost every PhD in America in history is
(03:07):
a radical leftist these days, and so that doesn't leave
very many people to preserve the past and to tell
the stories. So some of the greatest uh history books
right now are being written from outside of academia. Unfortunately,
that's where.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
We are.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
By by necessity, as it turns out. But you don't
have to tell you. I'm a Shelby Foot fan. I
love you know, that style of these people that just
pour themselves into studying history and bringing history back to life,
and not just telling the history, but giving you almost
(03:48):
an experience as if as if you were in it.
And as a child, my oldest son's name is Crockett,
and I knew by third grade I wanted to have
a son one day whose name will be Crockett. I
was so enamored of the heroes of the Alamo being
a lifelong textan in and that has affected, you know,
many aspects of my life and who I want to
be and what values I consider to hold and the
(04:11):
idea of sacrifice because that was the ultimate. I think
it's interesting you you make the point that so much
of the best history is being written outside the university today.
I think that is a reflection both of the changing
of the guard, changing of the mindset of faculty and
and their their political views, their their biases. But I
(04:34):
also think that is a reflection of outsiders recognizing that
this history has to be kept alive. It is us
like the protect Philip folks say, you know, you don't
own a protect Filip. You just you just hold on
to it and preserve it for the next generation. I
think there's probably that recognition, and I get the sense
(04:56):
that that is the reason for you to do this,
because we can't lose our history to history.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You know.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I always say truth is a stubborn.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Thing and it cannot be erased. Uh, they've tried, But
now history is being written by attorneys, commercial real estate
guys like me, you know, uh, people from outside of academia, and.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Uh give hold on hold with me for just a moment.
The book is Uncanceled Robert E. Lee, an open letter
to the Trustees of Washington and Lee University. I guess
it's not technically a book. I guess it's it's a
movement that has a manifesto as.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Part of it. Let me ask you. GiB Kerr is
our guest. He's he's written this. Have you had any
you know, official uh communication with Washington and Lee? What
has been there?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Their reactions?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
So far? We've had communication kind of through back channels,
I would say, to various members of the board of trustees,
but the president essentially won't.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Talk to us.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
It's kind of hard to make any progress when the
other sideling engage with you.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So the man who was once the president of the university,
his successor won't speak to you about uncanceling. This great man.
And that's interesting, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Lee's the one who saved the school after the Civil War.
He spent the last five years of his life there.
He's buried there on campus in the chapel that he built,
and the university renamed the chapel. It's no longer Lee Chapel.
It's called University chapel, and they took his portrait down,
along with the portrait of George Washington, and they built
a wall in front of the statue to block the
(06:53):
view of Roberty Lee from the chapel, So they essentially
whitewashed it. And they act as if they're ashamed of
Lee or embarrassed by any affiliation with him. And you know,
my take is that I've never felt the need to apologize, really,
but I do understand that the way that particularly younger
(07:16):
generation has been indoctrinated to demonize Confederates, and to not
just Confederates, but to really hate a lot of American heroes,
I understand that there's a real need to tell Lee's story,
and that's why I wrote this book. To tell the
truth about Lee.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And what is that truth? What is important for people
to understand.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Most people don't realize that the truth is that Lee
was opposed to slavery.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Before the war, he.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Called it a moral and political evil, and after the
war he said that he was rejoiced that slavery had
been abolished. The truth is that he was opposed to secession.
He did not want Virginia to secede, but he felt
like when Virginia did seceed that he owed this primary
allegiance to his state, not to the United States. That's
(08:08):
that people viewed things back then. And so he was
motivated to fight to defend Virginia from the invasion of
the Union Army, which he did magnificently, by the way.
And you know, the truth is that after the war,
he was a leading voice for reconciliation. He did everything
he could to bring the country back together after the war,
(08:29):
and he bore all his suffering nobly, never complained. He
wasn't a whiner, and he was a noble character. And
you know you referenced George Orwell earlier. Orwell said that
who controls the past controls the future. And America's past
is incomplete without Roberty Lee. Because he's the greatest example
(08:50):
of courage and virtue in American history. That's why we
need him.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That's why I wrote this book.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
What was your connection to this what interested you in
this subject in this moment?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well, I first got introduced to Lee in fourth grade
when I wrote a paper on him. I still have that,
by the way. And then I went to school at
Washington and Lee and Robertie Lee was everywhere and you know,
in the nineteen eighties and his portrait was up in
every fraternity house. Even the grocery store had a portrait
of Lee and Stonewall Jackson, and people still admired him
(09:25):
in those days. And so and I was in a
fraternity to Cap Alpha order. Robertie Lee is considered the
spiritual founder of Kappa Alpha. We were taught to emulate
General Lee's character as pledges. We didn't always live up
to that standard, but we tried. And you know, I
was fascinated that Robertie Lee was everywhere, and I thought,
(09:48):
could anybody really be that great? He was treated like
a saint in the South, and being from Missouri, you know,
I had that show me factor. I thought, I got
to find out more about this. So the more I read,
the more fascinated I became. That Lee really is I
think the most remarkable example of character in virtue, maybe
(10:10):
next to George Washington in our country's history. And so
that is I think a large reason why cancel culture
is targeting him to get rid of them, because when
they eliminate heroes, they're really eliminating the values, the belief
systems that those heroes stood for and that's Christianity, that's
the love of liberty, and you know that's what the
(10:31):
Ftanic fathers thought for.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You know, give you you made a point that got
my mind despiraling. So I think about historical events that occurred,
in this case one hundred and sixty years ago, but
in some cases even more two hundred years ago, and
(10:58):
I think about a relative consistency in the way in
which those events and moments and people and personalities were
perceived all the way for say one hundred twenty thirty
years after, and all of that then changes after the
(11:20):
events and the personalities are long gone. They changed dramatically
beginning I think probably sometime in the nineties and then
at the turn of the century, and within one generation
heroes or villains, and villains are heroes and good is bad.
And it's an amazing thing. We're not talking about how
Lee was perceived shortly after the Civil War, because he
(11:43):
was revered. You know, it's interesting there's a connection with
Robert E. Lee in the state of Texas. The song
and the Eyes of Texas are upon You, which every
University of Texas Longhorn knows, actually comes from the then
leader of the University of Texas who had been at
Washington Lee under Robert E.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
And Robert E. Lee would famously say, as you know,
you know, conduct yourself with with chivalry and decency, because
the eyes of the South are upon you, and he
considered that a great admonition. Hold on just a moment.
GiB Kerr is our guest. The book is uncancelled, ROBERTI.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Lee. They're all Duncans. And do you know duncan means your.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yo give Kerr is our guest. You pronounce it curror
carrkerr okay kat e r R. He is the author
of Uncanceled, Robert E.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Gibb. I think it's interesting that there are a number
of folks with whom I am in communication who are
interested in preserving American history, even American history that that
the Obama crowd has managed to extinguish and and to
(13:02):
paint with a really, really bad brush. And a number
of other people who were not raised with this as
their perspective are afraid to say anything, so they just
back away and say, well, we'll just we won't think
about it, we won't talk about it because we don't
want the we don't want the hive to be buzzing
(13:25):
around us. It's just easier that way. There's a lack
of courage, But you don't have a lack of courage,
And yet you're not an individual who is retired, which
is usually the situation. I find you have a professional
career to consider as well, and you believe in this,
and so you're doing it. I respect that.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Tell me about that, well, I appreciate that. Yeah, I
did write this book at some considerable risk, knowing that
not everyone is going to agree with my point of view.
I've worked for a large, publicly traded commercial real estate firm,
and you know, I could have been fired, and I
might still be fired. I don't know, But that's a
(14:06):
risk that I'm willing to take because I feel strongly
enough about preserving the legacy of Robert E. Lee that
I think people need to stand up and tell the
truth about him, and you know, I'll deal with the consequences.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
What has been the reaction that has emboldened you, that
has delighted you people you've heard from students, teachers, whatever
that may be.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, you know, I've been very pleasantly surprised. I expected
the worst, and you know, there've been some haters on
social media. They're always out there people that leave nasty
Amazon reviews.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
But for the most part, the response has been overwhelmingly positive.
It's been people saying thank you for standing up for
Robert E. Lee and for what he stood for. And
you know, it's kind of taught me a lesson, which
is that the the woke mobsters there are a bunch
of cowards. They don't like it when you when you
(15:10):
stand up to them. They're like bullies, and you probably
remember when you're a kid, the best thing you can
ever do to a bully is punch them in the nose.
Most of the time they back down. So this book
is kind of a uh, you know, in a way,
sort of a proverbial punch of the nose to the left.
And I hope more books like it follow.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I'm I'm amazed by the moment. I'm not sure how
well it's known that Robert E. Lee is summoned to
the White House to consider uh leading the Union forces.
And I think it was Winfield Scott was involved.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
And Lee's.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Leadership and he was just revered. His leadership was legendary.
And he has this tough decision and he comes home
and he chooses his state, which of course would bring
ruin upon his reputation, his family, his wealth. And yet
I never got the sense that he regretted that decision.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Pit he No, he did not.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
He said, I think after the war that he would
have done everything the same way. Yes, he was offered
command of the army that Abraham Lincoln announced he was
going to raise in April eighteen sixty one, seventy five
thousand troops would have been the largest army ever assembled
on North America and the North American continent. And Lee,
you know, he had toiled away in obscurity for about
(16:47):
thirty years in the US Army, never surpassed the rank
of colonel, and he was given this opportunity to be
in charge of the biggest army ever and to be
the commanding general and his chance for glory in same
and he turned it down because he could not take
part in an invasion of his home state. Those were
his principles, and so he chose to suffer the consequences.
(17:11):
They lost their home at Arlington, which is now Arlington
National Cemetery, lost everything. And you know, it's interesting that
Lee never owned his own house and his whole life.
He lived in his wife's house at Arlington, and then
after the war he lived in the president's house at
Washington College. But no, he said that he would not
(17:31):
have done anything differently.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Talk about his move to what became Washington and Lee
his move to be the university president, how that came about,
how it went.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
You know, the school had been raided by the Union Army.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
It's right next to the Virginia Military Institute, which the
Union Army had essentially destroyed. And so after the war
they were down to only about forty students, and they
were really teetering on the on the verge of insolvency.
And as a hail Mary, they wrote a letter to
Robert Eli said, well, you come be president of the school,
(18:10):
And to their shock and surprise, he said yes, and
he wrote into town on his famous horse Traveler and
assumed the presidency, and they went from forty students to
over four hundred.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Money came flowing in to.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Support to rebuild the school from both the north and
the south. By the way, and he really he not
only saved the school, but he he shaped the character
of the school by emphasizing the honor code and by
his one rule. The students asked them, what are the
rules here in general, and he said, we have one rule,
(18:43):
and that is that every student must conduct himself as
a gentleman. And so that was the tradition at Washington
and LA that he established.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
It's amazing to me that after the war he should
seemingly be broken, and yet everything I've ever read was
not that. It was that he was very measured and
very thoughtful. But as I said at the beginning, which
(19:15):
has always struck me about him, that there was not
a sense of regret. He was a proud Virginian. He
loved Virginia. He did his duty, and I think he
left it on the field, and he felt that he
had done what he believed to be the right thing.
And that says a lot about the man. You have
not spoken about his deep faith, but that was the man.
(19:35):
It was family and faith and his state, which at
the time was like his nation.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
That's right, and his faith was very important to him.
I mentioned he built the chapel where he's buried, and
he worshiped there every morning. I encouraged the students to
join him there, read the Bible every night with his family.
Very deeply religious man, and he also studied the Stoics,
did most Americans at that time study the ancient Greeks
(20:04):
and the Romans. And he was particularly fond of quoting
the Roman emperor, the Stoic Marcus Aurelius, and his meditation
misfortune nobly born is good fortune. And I quote that
in my book because I think those words sum up
Roberty Lee perfectly. Misfortune, nobly born is good fortune. And
(20:25):
so he turned his misfortune into our fortune today, which
is his legacy. That we still remember him today.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And that you proudly carry the torch to remember as
we all should. The book is uncanceled. Roberty Lee. GiB
curries our guest one more thing with him committed.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Nothing going on down there, probably, GiB I was.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I was reading through some of the materials I had
on this, and there was a timeline Will Dudley being
appointed president of Washington and Lee in twenty seventeen, and
then in twenty twenty begins this effort to just scrub
(21:11):
from the university its namesake and his influence on this school, which,
as you noted, the school was almost abandoned. When he
comes in and makes this a very prestigious university with
now a great legacy of character and the sort of
thing and values that we would want kids to have.
(21:34):
But I was reading about, let me see if I
can find it here a group called the General's Redoubt.
Tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah, that's as an alumni organization that I'm a member of,
I'm on the board of. And the General's re Doubt
kind of popped up organically among a bunch of the
alums who were upset about what was going on at
the university. So the General's for Doubt has been, you know,
spreading the word, raising awareness among alumni. We send out
(22:06):
a weekly email to about twelve thousand alumni and keep
them informed about what's going on on campus. We've raised
a considerable amount of money. We purchased a property outside
of town by the university where we have a national
headquarters now, so we've planted our flag. We're not going away,
(22:26):
and we're there to preserve the traditions, the values, the
history of the university. And we're engaging with students and
you know, it's funny, the students love us. The students
wear our hats and T shirts and whatnot. The faculty
in the administration that don't really care for us too much.
(22:48):
The faculty, by the way, voted over is it seventy
or eighty percent in favor of removing Roberty Lee's name
from the university, which is unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, I'm seeing seventy eight percent after the president appointed
a commission to determine such things. You know, it's a
very I have a friend named Davin James, and he
has a song called a Bucco and Spreeway, and it's
about the music in Texas and how Nashville has changed.
(23:19):
And there's a line he has in there. I bet
they wouldn't let Waylan on the Rhyman stage today. And
the idea that you know, the grand old Lobry wouldn't
allow this great country music singer because it is so
changed to skinny jeans and pop music with a tway.
But good on you, good on you, GiB for doing this.
(23:41):
I think I have my own personal respect and lifelong
study of Robert E. Lee, which made this quite interesting
to me. But on a bigger scale than even that
is the idea that ideas matter, and that courage and
can viction should be our driving force, and that cancelation's
(24:04):
greatest power is the fear of it, because then no
one stands up for anything. And so I admire you
for that, especially because you are in the middle of
your career rather than being someone who has nothing professional
per se to lose. And I think that's fantastic. I
think that means you believe in what you're doing because
(24:26):
you can talk about it during the daylight hours to
people who wear suits and our potential clients and of
course colleagues. I think that's incredible. That is incredibly commendable,
I must say, and I hope that serves to inspire
other people as it should. At the end of all
(24:47):
of this, what have you come to learn? Are you
more hopeful than you were in the people of this
country and their courage or have you been disappointed at
how many people said, yeah, Roberty leave, it's a very
important figure, but let's not fight this. What you know,
what do we gain from it?
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Well, well, first of all, thank you for those nice words,
and yes, I am optimistic, and like I said earlier,
truth is a stubborn thing and truth always wins out
in the end. And we see we see the small
signs of progress. Roberty Lee's actually making a comeback. You
probably saw recently they restored the twenty foot portrait of
(25:30):
Roberty Lee in the library at West Point last month.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And I know on your show you've you've talked in the.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Past about the Midland Lee High School. There's a high
school in Shenandoah County, Virginia, at the Stonewall Jackson High School.
They restored their name, and I'm actually involved in a
as an expert witness in a suit where they're being
sued by the NAACP to remove the Stonewall Jackson name.
But that's taught me that we need to stand up
(25:57):
to these bullies, because that's that's what these okeme mobsters are.
They're trying to intimidate us in the silence, and we've
got truth on our side. We just need to stand
up for the truth and have the courage of our convictions.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I think the great scourge of this nation is an
inability to confront difficult aspects of history, and racism being
one of those. But it's important to remember that this
does not happen in a vacuum. There are people who
stand to gain from it personally, professionally, financially by stoking
things and encouraging things and stretching things into untruths. And
(26:35):
it's very hard to have the slings and arrows of ridiculous, absurd,
hurtful things said about you and what you stand for,
and yet you have to do it right. That there
is nobility in that, to go back to your Marcus
Aurelius quote, there is nobility in that. There's a strength
(26:56):
in that, and it sustains itself.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I think this is fantastic, GiB. I wish we had
more time, but keep up the good work. You are
truly an inspiration. The book is called Uncanceled. Robert E. Lee,
thank you for taking time to speak to us today, Concern.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Thank you so much. Michael really appreciate being on a show.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Don't give up, folks. Don't give up on our people,
don't give up on our land, don't give up on
our system. There are good people out there, and they're brave,
and they're courageous and their self less, and they stand
up and do what they believe to be the right thing,
(27:40):
knowing good and well that they will be called the
worst of names for it, and yet they persist. Wow,
that is just amazing to me, It really is. It's
I used the word when our guest was on, but
it's it's an inspiration. Let that be an inspiration to
(28:00):
you and be an inspiration for the next person behind you.
If you like the Michael Berry Show and Podcast, please
tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write a
nice review of our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and interest
in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be communicated
(28:22):
directly to the show at our email address, Michael at
Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on our website,
Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show and Podcast
is produced by Ramon Roeblis, the King of Ding. Executive
producer is Chad Knakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director.
(28:51):
Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery, and Shenanigans are provided by Chance McLain.
Director of Research is Sandy Pare. Emily Bull is our
assistant listener and superfan. Contributions are appreciated and often incorporated
into our production. Where possible, we give credit. Where not,
(29:13):
we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the
memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be a simple
man like Leonard Skinnard told you and God bless America. Finally,
if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD, call Camp
Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and
(29:39):
a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide free
counseling
The Michael Berry Show. I was offered the opportunity to
interview a gentleman by the name of GiB Kerr, and
he's written a book called Uncanceled Robert E.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
You have my attention, GiB Kerr. Welcome to the program, gibb.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good boy, Michael. Yes, sir, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Yes, sir. First of all, tell me why write this book?
What is your interest in this movement?
Speaker 3 (00:30):
I wrote this book after Robert E. Lee was unfairly
canceled by the Woe Mom in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one.
You remember the statues coming down in Charlottesville and Richmond,
and you know, I don't think that it was this
was in response to cancel like we're talking about there,
(00:51):
trying to erase history, to kind of take what I
call the serve pro approach to history, like nothing ever
happened before.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Seeing that with.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
The radicals throughout history, the French Revolution, they they did
away with the calendar and started with year zero, is
that nothing had ever happened before. We saw it with
the Chinese Cultural Revolution, and it really started here in America.
I trace it back really to Obama when he said
he wanted to fundamentally transform America. We found out what
(01:22):
that meant, you know, meant teaching our kids to to
to be ashamed of their past and to be ashamed
of the founding fathers and everything that made America great.
And we've been through turmoil, I mean, to the We've
went two years where people were kneeling for the national anthem,
and on and on and on and but you know,
(01:42):
like every radical movement before it, the American Cultural Revolution,
I think finally went too far, and now it's flaming
out and we're in the middle of, thankfully, I think
a great restoration of American values and restoring Robert E. Lee,
I think is poort a component of that.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Roberty Lee's contributions, service, sacrifice have not been forgotten to
history by neglect. They've been intentionally obscured and erased. Why
do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
You know, Lee was widely held as a hero North
and South up until you know, recently as twenty or
thirty years ago. But I think it really I think
he traced it back to modern academia. You know, higher
education has been completely taken over by leftists and historians
like Howard Zen. You've probably heard of Howard Zen, the
(02:42):
Marxist historian who wrote the book People's History of the
United States. And Howard Zen said that history is a
weapon as a direct quote from him, and that he
saw history as a quiet revolution to take over the
institutions from within. And so now you have historians that
dominate universities. Almost every PhD in America in history is
(03:07):
a radical leftist these days, and so that doesn't leave
very many people to preserve the past and to tell
the stories. So some of the greatest uh history books
right now are being written from outside of academia. Unfortunately,
that's where.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
We are.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
By by necessity, as it turns out. But you don't
have to tell you. I'm a Shelby Foot fan. I
love you know, that style of these people that just
pour themselves into studying history and bringing history back to life,
and not just telling the history, but giving you almost
(03:48):
an experience as if as if you were in it.
And as a child, my oldest son's name is Crockett,
and I knew by third grade I wanted to have
a son one day whose name will be Crockett. I
was so enamored of the heroes of the Alamo being
a lifelong textan in and that has affected, you know,
many aspects of my life and who I want to
be and what values I consider to hold and the
(04:11):
idea of sacrifice because that was the ultimate. I think
it's interesting you you make the point that so much
of the best history is being written outside the university today.
I think that is a reflection both of the changing
of the guard, changing of the mindset of faculty and
and their their political views, their their biases. But I
(04:34):
also think that is a reflection of outsiders recognizing that
this history has to be kept alive. It is us
like the protect Philip folks say, you know, you don't
own a protect Filip. You just you just hold on
to it and preserve it for the next generation. I
think there's probably that recognition, and I get the sense
(04:56):
that that is the reason for you to do this,
because we can't lose our history to history.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
You know.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I always say truth is a stubborn.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Thing and it cannot be erased. Uh, they've tried, But
now history is being written by attorneys, commercial real estate
guys like me, you know, uh, people from outside of academia, and.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Uh give hold on hold with me for just a moment.
The book is Uncanceled Robert E. Lee, an open letter
to the Trustees of Washington and Lee University. I guess
it's not technically a book. I guess it's it's a
movement that has a manifesto as.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Part of it. Let me ask you. GiB Kerr is
our guest. He's he's written this. Have you had any
you know, official uh communication with Washington and Lee? What
has been there?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Their reactions?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
So far? We've had communication kind of through back channels,
I would say, to various members of the board of trustees,
but the president essentially won't.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Talk to us.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
It's kind of hard to make any progress when the
other sideling engage with you.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So the man who was once the president of the university,
his successor won't speak to you about uncanceling. This great man.
And that's interesting, that's right.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Lee's the one who saved the school after the Civil War.
He spent the last five years of his life there.
He's buried there on campus in the chapel that he built,
and the university renamed the chapel. It's no longer Lee Chapel.
It's called University chapel, and they took his portrait down,
along with the portrait of George Washington, and they built
a wall in front of the statue to block the
(06:53):
view of Roberty Lee from the chapel, So they essentially
whitewashed it. And they act as if they're ashamed of
Lee or embarrassed by any affiliation with him. And you know,
my take is that I've never felt the need to apologize, really,
but I do understand that the way that particularly younger
(07:16):
generation has been indoctrinated to demonize Confederates, and to not
just Confederates, but to really hate a lot of American heroes,
I understand that there's a real need to tell Lee's story,
and that's why I wrote this book. To tell the
truth about Lee.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And what is that truth? What is important for people
to understand.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Most people don't realize that the truth is that Lee
was opposed to slavery.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Before the war, he.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Called it a moral and political evil, and after the
war he said that he was rejoiced that slavery had
been abolished. The truth is that he was opposed to secession.
He did not want Virginia to secede, but he felt
like when Virginia did seceed that he owed this primary
allegiance to his state, not to the United States. That's
(08:08):
that people viewed things back then. And so he was
motivated to fight to defend Virginia from the invasion of
the Union Army, which he did magnificently, by the way.
And you know, the truth is that after the war,
he was a leading voice for reconciliation. He did everything
he could to bring the country back together after the war,
(08:29):
and he bore all his suffering nobly, never complained. He
wasn't a whiner, and he was a noble character. And
you know you referenced George Orwell earlier. Orwell said that
who controls the past controls the future. And America's past
is incomplete without Roberty Lee. Because he's the greatest example
(08:50):
of courage and virtue in American history. That's why we
need him.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
That's why I wrote this book.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
What was your connection to this what interested you in
this subject in this moment?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Well, I first got introduced to Lee in fourth grade
when I wrote a paper on him. I still have that,
by the way. And then I went to school at
Washington and Lee and Robertie Lee was everywhere and you know,
in the nineteen eighties and his portrait was up in
every fraternity house. Even the grocery store had a portrait
of Lee and Stonewall Jackson, and people still admired him
(09:25):
in those days. And so and I was in a
fraternity to Cap Alpha order. Robertie Lee is considered the
spiritual founder of Kappa Alpha. We were taught to emulate
General Lee's character as pledges. We didn't always live up
to that standard, but we tried. And you know, I
was fascinated that Robertie Lee was everywhere, and I thought,
(09:48):
could anybody really be that great? He was treated like
a saint in the South, and being from Missouri, you know,
I had that show me factor. I thought, I got
to find out more about this. So the more I read,
the more fascinated I became. That Lee really is I
think the most remarkable example of character in virtue, maybe
(10:10):
next to George Washington in our country's history. And so
that is I think a large reason why cancel culture
is targeting him to get rid of them, because when
they eliminate heroes, they're really eliminating the values, the belief
systems that those heroes stood for and that's Christianity, that's
the love of liberty, and you know that's what the
(10:31):
Ftanic fathers thought for.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You know, give you you made a point that got
my mind despiraling. So I think about historical events that occurred,
in this case one hundred and sixty years ago, but
in some cases even more two hundred years ago, and
(10:58):
I think about a relative consistency in the way in
which those events and moments and people and personalities were
perceived all the way for say one hundred twenty thirty
years after, and all of that then changes after the
(11:20):
events and the personalities are long gone. They changed dramatically
beginning I think probably sometime in the nineties and then
at the turn of the century, and within one generation
heroes or villains, and villains are heroes and good is bad.
And it's an amazing thing. We're not talking about how
Lee was perceived shortly after the Civil War, because he
(11:43):
was revered. You know, it's interesting there's a connection with
Robert E. Lee in the state of Texas. The song
and the Eyes of Texas are upon You, which every
University of Texas Longhorn knows, actually comes from the then
leader of the University of Texas who had been at
Washington Lee under Robert E.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
And Robert E. Lee would famously say, as you know,
you know, conduct yourself with with chivalry and decency, because
the eyes of the South are upon you, and he
considered that a great admonition. Hold on just a moment.
GiB Kerr is our guest. The book is uncancelled, ROBERTI.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Lee. They're all Duncans. And do you know duncan means your.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yo give Kerr is our guest. You pronounce it curror
carrkerr okay kat e r R. He is the author
of Uncanceled, Robert E.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Lee.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Gibb. I think it's interesting that there are a number
of folks with whom I am in communication who are
interested in preserving American history, even American history that that
the Obama crowd has managed to extinguish and and to
(13:02):
paint with a really, really bad brush. And a number
of other people who were not raised with this as
their perspective are afraid to say anything, so they just
back away and say, well, we'll just we won't think
about it, we won't talk about it because we don't
want the we don't want the hive to be buzzing
(13:25):
around us. It's just easier that way. There's a lack
of courage, But you don't have a lack of courage,
And yet you're not an individual who is retired, which
is usually the situation. I find you have a professional
career to consider as well, and you believe in this,
and so you're doing it. I respect that.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Tell me about that, well, I appreciate that. Yeah, I
did write this book at some considerable risk, knowing that
not everyone is going to agree with my point of view.
I've worked for a large, publicly traded commercial real estate firm,
and you know, I could have been fired, and I
might still be fired. I don't know, But that's a
(14:06):
risk that I'm willing to take because I feel strongly
enough about preserving the legacy of Robert E. Lee that
I think people need to stand up and tell the
truth about him, and you know, I'll deal with the consequences.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
What has been the reaction that has emboldened you, that
has delighted you people you've heard from students, teachers, whatever
that may be.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, you know, I've been very pleasantly surprised. I expected
the worst, and you know, there've been some haters on
social media. They're always out there people that leave nasty
Amazon reviews.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
And that sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
But for the most part, the response has been overwhelmingly positive.
It's been people saying thank you for standing up for
Robert E. Lee and for what he stood for. And
you know, it's kind of taught me a lesson, which
is that the the woke mobsters there are a bunch
of cowards. They don't like it when you when you
(15:10):
stand up to them. They're like bullies, and you probably
remember when you're a kid, the best thing you can
ever do to a bully is punch them in the nose.
Most of the time they back down. So this book
is kind of a uh, you know, in a way,
sort of a proverbial punch of the nose to the left.
And I hope more books like it follow.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
I'm I'm amazed by the moment. I'm not sure how
well it's known that Robert E. Lee is summoned to
the White House to consider uh leading the Union forces.
And I think it was Winfield Scott was involved.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
And Lee's.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Leadership and he was just revered. His leadership was legendary.
And he has this tough decision and he comes home
and he chooses his state, which of course would bring
ruin upon his reputation, his family, his wealth. And yet
I never got the sense that he regretted that decision.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Pit he No, he did not.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
He said, I think after the war that he would
have done everything the same way. Yes, he was offered
command of the army that Abraham Lincoln announced he was
going to raise in April eighteen sixty one, seventy five
thousand troops would have been the largest army ever assembled
on North America and the North American continent. And Lee,
you know, he had toiled away in obscurity for about
(16:47):
thirty years in the US Army, never surpassed the rank
of colonel, and he was given this opportunity to be
in charge of the biggest army ever and to be
the commanding general and his chance for glory in same
and he turned it down because he could not take
part in an invasion of his home state. Those were
his principles, and so he chose to suffer the consequences.
(17:11):
They lost their home at Arlington, which is now Arlington
National Cemetery, lost everything. And you know, it's interesting that
Lee never owned his own house and his whole life.
He lived in his wife's house at Arlington, and then
after the war he lived in the president's house at
Washington College. But no, he said that he would not
(17:31):
have done anything differently.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Talk about his move to what became Washington and Lee
his move to be the university president, how that came about,
how it went.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
You know, the school had been raided by the Union Army.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
It's right next to the Virginia Military Institute, which the
Union Army had essentially destroyed. And so after the war
they were down to only about forty students, and they
were really teetering on the on the verge of insolvency.
And as a hail Mary, they wrote a letter to
Robert Eli said, well, you come be president of the school,
(18:10):
And to their shock and surprise, he said yes, and
he wrote into town on his famous horse Traveler and
assumed the presidency, and they went from forty students to
over four hundred.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Money came flowing in to.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Support to rebuild the school from both the north and
the south. By the way, and he really he not
only saved the school, but he he shaped the character
of the school by emphasizing the honor code and by
his one rule. The students asked them, what are the
rules here in general, and he said, we have one rule,
(18:43):
and that is that every student must conduct himself as
a gentleman. And so that was the tradition at Washington
and LA that he established.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
It's amazing to me that after the war he should
seemingly be broken, and yet everything I've ever read was
not that. It was that he was very measured and
very thoughtful. But as I said at the beginning, which
(19:15):
has always struck me about him, that there was not
a sense of regret. He was a proud Virginian. He
loved Virginia. He did his duty, and I think he
left it on the field, and he felt that he
had done what he believed to be the right thing.
And that says a lot about the man. You have
not spoken about his deep faith, but that was the man.
(19:35):
It was family and faith and his state, which at
the time was like his nation.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
That's right, and his faith was very important to him.
I mentioned he built the chapel where he's buried, and
he worshiped there every morning. I encouraged the students to
join him there, read the Bible every night with his family.
Very deeply religious man, and he also studied the Stoics,
did most Americans at that time study the ancient Greeks
(20:04):
and the Romans. And he was particularly fond of quoting
the Roman emperor, the Stoic Marcus Aurelius, and his meditation
misfortune nobly born is good fortune. And I quote that
in my book because I think those words sum up
Roberty Lee perfectly. Misfortune, nobly born is good fortune. And
(20:25):
so he turned his misfortune into our fortune today, which
is his legacy. That we still remember him today.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
And that you proudly carry the torch to remember as
we all should. The book is uncanceled. Roberty Lee. GiB
curries our guest one more thing with him committed.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Nothing going on down there, probably, GiB I was.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I was reading through some of the materials I had
on this, and there was a timeline Will Dudley being
appointed president of Washington and Lee in twenty seventeen, and
then in twenty twenty begins this effort to just scrub
(21:11):
from the university its namesake and his influence on this school, which,
as you noted, the school was almost abandoned. When he
comes in and makes this a very prestigious university with
now a great legacy of character and the sort of
thing and values that we would want kids to have.
(21:34):
But I was reading about, let me see if I
can find it here a group called the General's Redoubt.
Tell me about that.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah, that's as an alumni organization that I'm a member of,
I'm on the board of. And the General's re Doubt
kind of popped up organically among a bunch of the
alums who were upset about what was going on at
the university. So the General's for Doubt has been, you know,
spreading the word, raising awareness among alumni. We send out
(22:06):
a weekly email to about twelve thousand alumni and keep
them informed about what's going on on campus. We've raised
a considerable amount of money. We purchased a property outside
of town by the university where we have a national
headquarters now, so we've planted our flag. We're not going away,
(22:26):
and we're there to preserve the traditions, the values, the
history of the university. And we're engaging with students and
you know, it's funny, the students love us. The students
wear our hats and T shirts and whatnot. The faculty
in the administration that don't really care for us too much.
(22:48):
The faculty, by the way, voted over is it seventy
or eighty percent in favor of removing Roberty Lee's name
from the university, which is unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, I'm seeing seventy eight percent after the president appointed
a commission to determine such things. You know, it's a
very I have a friend named Davin James, and he
has a song called a Bucco and Spreeway, and it's
about the music in Texas and how Nashville has changed.
(23:19):
And there's a line he has in there. I bet
they wouldn't let Waylan on the Rhyman stage today. And
the idea that you know, the grand old Lobry wouldn't
allow this great country music singer because it is so
changed to skinny jeans and pop music with a tway.
But good on you, good on you, GiB for doing this.
(23:41):
I think I have my own personal respect and lifelong
study of Robert E. Lee, which made this quite interesting
to me. But on a bigger scale than even that
is the idea that ideas matter, and that courage and
can viction should be our driving force, and that cancelation's
(24:04):
greatest power is the fear of it, because then no
one stands up for anything. And so I admire you
for that, especially because you are in the middle of
your career rather than being someone who has nothing professional
per se to lose. And I think that's fantastic. I
think that means you believe in what you're doing because
(24:26):
you can talk about it during the daylight hours to
people who wear suits and our potential clients and of
course colleagues. I think that's incredible. That is incredibly commendable,
I must say, and I hope that serves to inspire
other people as it should. At the end of all
(24:47):
of this, what have you come to learn? Are you
more hopeful than you were in the people of this
country and their courage or have you been disappointed at
how many people said, yeah, Roberty leave, it's a very
important figure, but let's not fight this. What you know,
what do we gain from it?
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Well, well, first of all, thank you for those nice words,
and yes, I am optimistic, and like I said earlier,
truth is a stubborn thing and truth always wins out
in the end. And we see we see the small
signs of progress. Roberty Lee's actually making a comeback. You
probably saw recently they restored the twenty foot portrait of
(25:30):
Roberty Lee in the library at West Point last month.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And I know on your show you've you've talked in the.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Past about the Midland Lee High School. There's a high
school in Shenandoah County, Virginia, at the Stonewall Jackson High School.
They restored their name, and I'm actually involved in a
as an expert witness in a suit where they're being
sued by the NAACP to remove the Stonewall Jackson name.
But that's taught me that we need to stand up
(25:57):
to these bullies, because that's that's what these okeme mobsters are.
They're trying to intimidate us in the silence, and we've
got truth on our side. We just need to stand
up for the truth and have the courage of our convictions.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I think the great scourge of this nation is an
inability to confront difficult aspects of history, and racism being
one of those. But it's important to remember that this
does not happen in a vacuum. There are people who
stand to gain from it personally, professionally, financially by stoking
things and encouraging things and stretching things into untruths. And
(26:35):
it's very hard to have the slings and arrows of ridiculous, absurd,
hurtful things said about you and what you stand for,
and yet you have to do it right. That there
is nobility in that, to go back to your Marcus
Aurelius quote, there is nobility in that. There's a strength
(26:56):
in that, and it sustains itself.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I think this is fantastic, GiB. I wish we had
more time, but keep up the good work. You are
truly an inspiration. The book is called Uncanceled. Robert E. Lee,
thank you for taking time to speak to us today, Concern.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Thank you so much. Michael really appreciate being on a show.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Don't give up, folks. Don't give up on our people,
don't give up on our land, don't give up on
our system. There are good people out there, and they're brave,
and they're courageous and their self less, and they stand
up and do what they believe to be the right thing,
(27:40):
knowing good and well that they will be called the
worst of names for it, and yet they persist. Wow,
that is just amazing to me, It really is. It's
I used the word when our guest was on, but
it's it's an inspiration. Let that be an inspiration to
(28:00):
you and be an inspiration for the next person behind you.
If you like the Michael Berry Show and Podcast, please
tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write a
nice review of our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and interest
in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be communicated
(28:22):
directly to the show at our email address, Michael at
Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on our website,
Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show and Podcast
is produced by Ramon Roeblis, the King of Ding. Executive
producer is Chad Knakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director.
(28:51):
Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery, and Shenanigans are provided by Chance McLain.
Director of Research is Sandy Pare. Emily Bull is our
assistant listener and superfan. Contributions are appreciated and often incorporated
into our production. Where possible, we give credit. Where not,
(29:13):
we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the
memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be a simple
man like Leonard Skinnard told you and God bless America. Finally,
if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD, call Camp
Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and
(29:39):
a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide free
counseling
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com