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We'd love to hear from you.Tonight. We'll seek the professor Robert
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(01:33):
Hitler's Jewish Baby. That's right,a Jewish baby became the abbey and prototype
in one of the German magazines.How it all came about and what it
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premier Jewish broadcast on the year sincenineteen eighty one. Now, m Zeph
(07:09):
Brenner. It's been many years sincewe last had our guest. Professor Robert
Rockaway. He's a professor emeritus atTelevision University. He's the author of a
few books, including a bestseller whichwe spoke to him a while back.
Hold but he was good to hismother. The Lies and Crimes of Jewish
Gangsters, he wrote Leaving the AuldOrthodox Fold. He co authored that book.
He's written with the publications. Buthe's back because he's uncovered an amazing
(07:32):
story of Hitler's Jewish baby. Professor, how are you? That's what you're
okay? Yeah, I'm walking intomy salon or living room to you,
and you see article I wrote Hitleris Jewish Baby. So Hitler, you
(07:53):
know, they want to show theworld, but an Arian baby was like,
let's go back to nineteen thirty fiveand what happened with magazine called the
Son of the House. In thewinter of nineteen thirty five, few months
after the German government passed the Nuremberglass, the Nazi family magazine zona Inhaus sponsored
(08:13):
a photographic competition to find quote,the perfect Aryan child. On January twenty
four, nineteen thirty five, publisheda front page photograph of the winter a
beautiful six month old baby girl namedHessie. Levinson's Nazi propaganda showcased the baby
as quote the perfect Aryan baby unbnouncedto the judges, Hessie was Jewish.
(08:39):
Okay, so that's hers. Shewas born into Jewish famil boy, She's
a beautiful baby, by the way, I mean really a beautiful girl six
months old, She lovely, lovelyface. You wouldn't tell it was Jewish
or not. I mean, howdo you tell from a baby six months
old? Her nose was tiny thatthat's not what they call the Jewish or
ata in those and the father andmother were employee. The father was an
(09:03):
opera singer, and he was Hetook them a non Jewish name, Yasha
Lenson, to hide his Jewish identitybecause of the anti Semitism. You have
to remember when it was in Germany. I mean the Nazis were in power,
the Germans. You know, Inever say not to say Germans.
They were all Germans, and youhad this rising anti Semitism in Berlin.
(09:28):
And when they found out that directorsfound out that his family was really was
eleven sons, they canceled the contractand so the family was stuck living in
a one room apartment and they hadthis portrait. They took their baby to
a photographer they had nothing else todo, and it was one of the
(09:48):
best photographers in Berlin, and hemade a beautiful picture. And the picture
was so beautiful. They had ittrained and they put it on the piano,
and then people were visiting them andthey said, can we use the
picture? Yeah, and they tookthe picture and they put it in the
Nazi magazine Son and the Son inthe house, and nobody knew that it
(10:09):
was a Jewish baby. This thingwent all over Germany, all over those
areas occupied by the Germans, andyou had this picture of the perfect Arian
baby. The parents were traumatized,and the parents professor. The parents didn't
put the picture into the publication.They didn't even know about it. Somebody
else but they didn't know, that'sright. The parents were traumatized because they
(10:31):
were afraid if they found out thatthis baby, who nobody knew as Jewish,
was Jewish. If they found out, they would be killed immediately.
You know, the Nazis didn't forthe German When people say Nazis, I
mean all the Nazis were Germans.Not all Germans were Nazis, but all
the Nazis were Germans, So whatdo I use the word German. That's
who they were. And if theywould have found out about this, they
(10:54):
would have killed the whole family andcovered it all up. And so the
photograph was arranged by the Nazi propagandadepartment in Joseph Giggles to showcase the ideal
beautiful Arian baby. And this thingwent all over the country, all over
the areas occupied by the Germans,and you know, and most people did
(11:18):
know, but some people did.But the family was terrified. They wanted
to get the heck out of Germanyand go somewhere, but you couldn't get
out that easily. So they wereafraid that the family was Jewish. And
the photographer said to the no,I knew that you're Jewish, he said,
but I just wanted to give itto the Germans. He wouldn't pay
the price for it. They wouldhave paid. He wants to give it
(11:39):
to them. But the baby thatthey picked is a Jewish, perfect Arian
baby. So what happened was thepaper. The paper was edited by a
friend of Hermann Gerings and the wholebusiness and were terrified. The family was.
I mean, the photo went everywhere. It was on birthday cards every
place, and they didn't know whatthe heck to do, Okay, that
(12:01):
they really they were. The familywas traumatized and they tried to hide it.
They tried to cover it up,and they did eventually they did.
But many years later, Hessie thegirl was asked what she would say today
to the photographer who entered her picturein the contest, and she said that
(12:22):
I would tell him, good foryou for having the courage. Right,
he had the courage, but youknow, she would have paid the talked
about she said. I can laughabout it now, she says, but
if the Nazis had known who Iwas, I wouldn't be alive today to
tell you about it. And sothat's that's that's what happened. But Professor
(12:43):
took my hands balance and he submittedabout ten photographs, and there were hunters
of photographs that were submitted to exactlyjust this photographed one. She was a
beautiful child. I have it onmy computer and was published Tablet Magazine,
and I wrote the article for TabooMagazine as well, and they came,
they came and published the photograph.She was an adorable, beautiful baby.
(13:07):
There was nothing about her that youcould identify as Jewish. Luckily, by
nineteen forty two the family was desperateto get out because the picture was in
France and the Germans occupied France.You know, the French army, which
was bigger than the German army,fell in a month. The country was
occupied within a month. And innineteen forty two, finally the family gets
(13:30):
a visa for Cuba, and theyget they go, they go to Cuba.
They go there, okay, andthey made it. They make it
to Cuba and they lived there untilthey were able a number of years later
to go to the United States.And her story hessey, It goes on.
You know. The father said,look, he said, she says.
(13:52):
The father said, I survived Hitler, I survived Castro, and he
did so. She in Cuba,they went to the States. They made
it back, they made it intothe United States, and she ended up
going to high school in New York, New York City, Julia Richmond High
School, and she studied chemistry atBarnard College. She graduated in nineteen fifty
(14:16):
five. She worked at Bemia fora while and then worked in the educational
testing service for thirty years, andthen she ended up as a professor chemistry
professor at Saint John's University. Andthat was it and her family, immediate
family, survived the Holocaust. Everyoneelse in the family aside from her immediate
(14:37):
family, mother, father, brothersand sisters, if she had any all
all the rest of them were murderedby the Nazis. They were the only
ones that survived. And you knowit's tragic. I mean, if you
read about the Holocaust, you wantto drop a bomb on Berlin, you
know really. And by the way, the people who have created the atomic
(14:58):
bomb, most of them were Jewish. They were physicists from Hungary and other
places. They created the bomb tobe dropped on Berlin. But then the
war was over, so the Americansdropped it on Japan, the atomic bomb,
but they wanted it dropped on Berlin. They wanted to get back at
Germany for what they did. Now, I didn't know about you, but
(15:18):
to this day, and I didn'tgo through it. I was born in
nineteen thirty nine. I mean,okay, so I went through the war,
but I went through the war withmy family in the United States.
But to this until today, Ican't forgive Germany for what they did to
us. No memoralizing and there wasa war against the jew But let me
ask you this question. Though theywanted this was a Gerbels production of this
(15:41):
magazine, was a Nazi magazine,but they wanted to highlight and portray the
typical Arian baby. But the typicalArian baby was supposed to have blond hair
and blue eyes. And this younglady, I believe I had brown hair
and brown eyes, right, Ihad, right, you know, the
(16:03):
image of the typical or the areaand Nazi with blue eyes, blonde hair,
you know, small nose or astraight nose or whatever. This kid,
she was beautiful, but you hadbrown hair and brown eyes. But
beautiful baby. She woke a beautifulbaby. And uh, people just ignored
that and saw the face and didn'tsay Jewish, not Jewish, And they
(16:27):
went all across Germany, was onpostcards and on wedding invitations, and it
was on greeting cards. It wasall over and everywhere the Germans occupied.
They publicized it in magazines and everythingelse, and the picture was it was
she was Jewish. And many yearslater they asked her she said, it
(16:48):
was my revenge against the Chans forwhat they did, you know, having
her picture everywhere and speaking with ProfessorRobert Ronkaway, he's in Israel. He's
written the fascinating arm called Hitler's JewishBaby, about a Jewish baby named Hesse
Levinson that was portrayed as an Arianbaby and a Nazi magazine. And nineteen
(17:10):
thirty five, this is Idanie Rodriguez, Commissioner of the New York City Departments
or Transportation Mayor Eric Adams, andI want to Immanu that things happened fast
on the street. When you're driving, you're speaking, feel slow, but
if you hit someone easterly Finally,fast drivers watch out for petitions and cyclists
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are at risk again. Israelis areliving with constant danger, and many of
us are at a loss as tohow to help. But you can make
a real difference by making a giftto support Mgenda Vita Dome, Israel's ambulance
and Blood service. Your gift willprovide urgently needed medical supplies, help Israel's
Blood Services Center, and provide equipmentto MDA's twenty five thousand volunteer EMTs.
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And when you support Mcgenda Vita Dome, you're supporting one of the world's leading
mass casualty i'm a response organizations,so you know your gift will have an
impact. Make a gift today andhelp save lives in Israel. Call eight
six six sixty three two two sevensixty three. That's eight six six six
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Dome at Red Star for Israel dotorg Save a Life in Israel Today.
Welcome back to the program. I'mZev Brenner. We're speaking with Professor Robert
Rockaway, professor emeritus at Televid University, and he's written a book that we
had on previously called He Was Goodto His Mother The Lies and Crimes of
Jewish Gangsters. But his newest articleis called Hitler's Jewish Baby. A Nazi
(20:40):
magazine held a photo contest for theperfect Aryan baby that made one mistaken.
Who did they pick? Hessie Levinson, a six month old Jewish baby who
they portrayed as being the perfect Aryanchild. Lawson a Jewish name, professor.
Yeah, so when they printed thebaby's name, when they put Hessy
(21:03):
that they use the word Levinson.They'll use a different name when they printed
the picture. No, no,no, Levinson. They used the name
Levinson. Yeah, which you couldsay, it's a German name too.
It doesn't have to be a Jewishname. I mean, you know,
Rosenberg is also a German name,you know, I mean Rosenberg was the
Nazi government and the last name ofhis name was Rosenberg. And now so
(21:23):
Jews have Rosenberg, but there's theRosenberg, so you have you know,
there's a mixture there. Jewish namesand German names are very very similar,
okay. And they people saw thepicture and told her about They visited her
and they said, you know,we saw Hessy's picture. I'm such and
such a magazine. The family wasterrified. Their family was terrified, and
(21:48):
uh, I mean they were worried. They were desperate to get the heck
out of the country. And sothey went to a doctor and they said,
look, can you do something.He says no, he said nothing
I can do. He's but youdon't have to be afraid. When they
went to France, and they wereterrified, and they bade it to France,
and they went to a doctor thereand he says, listen, you
don't have to worry about it.The Germans aren't here. A month later,
(22:11):
Germans occupied France Paris in nineteen forty, and they smuggled the family got
smuggled. They paid off some peopleand her and the family were smuggled into
the Free Zone in Southern France.Remember it was vs. France to Southern
France. And then in nineteen fortyone the family managed to get a visa
(22:33):
to the United States, but luckilyit expired, but luckily they got a
visit to Cuba. They entered Cubaand they went to Cuba, and from
there they moved them. Eventually theygot they were able to go to Cuba
to the United States and that's wherethey lived. That's where she went to
school and where she went to university, and she got married there as she
(22:57):
got older and her name Hessie Levinson, he got married and became Hessy Levinson
tact her last name Tasked. Herfather stayed behind in Havana, Cuba,
because he had a business there,and stayed there until Saidel Castro came to
power. The business went bankrupt andthe father left. But her father said
(23:18):
to her, he said, look, I survived Hitler. I also survived
Castro. And she was She wasthere in New York. She studied chemistry
at high school in New York City, and then she went to Barnard College
and studied chemistry, graduated fifty five. She helped run the chemistry exam the
(23:38):
educational Chemistry exam, and then intwo thousand she went back to New York
and became a professor at Saint John'sUniversity and stayed there until she retired on
two thousand and sixteen. And herresearch project there was the how do how
do you pronoun it? Water sustainability? Whatever that is? So what's never?
(24:03):
Professor Robert Rockaway is our guests.He's uh, he's written a couple
of interests. He survived the wholepost. They were the only one just
letting people know who were there listeningto Professor Robert Rockaway is our guests.
He's in Israel. Uh, he'swritten a fascinating book that we had him
on a long time ago. Itwas good to his mother about Jewish gaxes.
But his recent article, which wasin Tablet magazine, is called Hitler's
(24:27):
Jewish Baby. A Nazi magazine helda photo contest for the perfect Arian baby.
Made one mistake when he picked thewinner because the winner was a Jewish
baby. How'd you find out aboutit? Because you just wrote about it?
Now it happens in the nineteen thirtyfive. How did you discover it?
You know, it's interesting how thingshappened, you know, I never
know if things happened just by chance, or we all have in our lives
(24:49):
a hand that guides us. It'scalled it's called the hand that's called the
hand to God, to God.And you know, I mean need I
believe that there is a hand guidingus. Robert Rockaway, who knows what
I mean. I mean, Icame across it. I was reading a
magazine and going through some other stuff. I was doing the search on something,
(25:10):
and I came across this artitude.You know, I was looking at
old magazines and things, and Icame across this magazine, which was a
German magazine, a Nazi magazine.I was that st I was going to
write about the Nazis and things,and I came across it, and I
came across this picture of this quoteperfect arian baby, and I looked at
(25:32):
the name, and I started doingsome research on the name, and it
came up as it was, shewas of Jewish descent, and so it
was. The family was fortified bythe way when this happened, when the
picture was published, because it wastheir daughter, the parents, and her
face was plastered all over the streetsand storefronts, you know, and covered
(25:56):
in magazine, you know, onthe front of the store and in windows
and newspapers and in magazines, andit was distributed on postcards throughout Germany,
The perfect aryan child. And thenI mean, it's crazy when you look
at history, it's like it's blackhumor in a way, it's you know,
(26:17):
And and the family was so terrified. They didn't let her play in
the park, they didn't let hergo outside anymore. And she said herself,
I couldn't play in the park,I couldn't go to the zoo,
which was my favorite place. Shewas literally confined to her house and stayed
there until the war was over,and then she was able to go out.
(26:37):
Because it tells me what happened whentell us what happened when a friend
of the family was visiting a Germanwoman's apartment and spotted Hesse's photo framed on
the wall, and the Jewish womanshouted, at it's Hessie Levinson. And
what happened there? Yeah, Well, she saw the picture and she said,
look, oh, this is theHessey Levinson. That's not it's just
(27:00):
a picture that I have. Andthe woman you looked at it said no,
it's got to be her. Andthen forgot about it and that was
it. She just you know,ignored it, didn't report it to anybody,
didn't report it to the government.Now you gotta think nineteen thirty five.
I mean it was for if therewere Jews left Germany, and there
were, you know, it wasit was terrified. They were looking for
(27:21):
them all the time. And whenit into the Nazis or the Germans,
I mean they were all the Naziswere all Germans. The Germans, you
know that they would have killed youimmediately. They wouldn't avoided they would have
just said, they would have shothim right away. And then uh,
the doctor. They went to adoctor in France who had visited parish and
he said, you don't have toworry there. A month later they occupied
(27:45):
the Germans practice. Let me askProfessor Rock, we have all the a
few moments left. Let me askyou this. And you know I worked
people to read this article when Ilast had you on about twenty some years
ago about he was good to hismother about Jewish gangsters. You went about
that. I know that's one ofthe especially he's writing about the Jewish gangsters
or finding people are unusual. Youfound the gangster that didn't kill on Shoppist.
(28:06):
That was orthodox. Oh yeah,Samuel red Lusine why Reddy had was
a redhead. He didn't kill onShavists. He wore a key park a
spell cap under his regular hat,and he stopped killing Friday, from Friday
afternoon to Saturday night. Muld sayShabbat. He didn't. He didn't take
any contract to kill. But ifhe had to, and this is true,
(28:29):
if he had to kill some ofthe there was nobody of avoiding it.
First he would put on his palague, he would say his prayers,
you know, schmist Rail or whateverhe prayers for Sabbat. Then he'd go
out and do the job. Buthe did the job. He did the
job after shops, not on Shabbists, right right, Never on Shavist.
But he was a contract killer.But if he couldn't no way of avoiding
it, he would purst pray andthen he would go out and do the
(28:51):
job on Schovists itself. He didn'tcraziness Old professor I thought that that he
observed Shaba didn't kill on show.You're saying that he actually did killings on
shop is too if you put onkill if he had no choice, Yeah,
But first he went and prayed.He said it frisis. Well,
I don't know if he said amoment that's way or anything else, elane
or whatever. Actually, the onlyprayer that counts is really amis you have
(29:12):
the shama. So he said that, and when he went out and did
the job. And you know,if you would have asked him, if
he was alive and sitting in frontof him, how could you do that?
They said, Look, I hadno choice. You know, it
was my business killer. You know, I have to do what they pay
me to do. And he said, but I did pray before I did
it on shop. I'll figure itout. You figure it out. Figure
(29:36):
it out, Professor Roach, Iinterviewed some of these guys, so you
know, I mean whatever they tellme, I say, okay, fine,
yeah, great, okay, wow, Wow. What's your next article?
A book going to be about theGangster book? Or what? What's
you You have another book in theoffering or another article and you're writing what?
No? I mean. I havea book on the Jews of Detroit,
(29:56):
I have a book on Jewish immigrants, I have the Angster Book.
But I have no haystick, likethey say, at this point in my
life, to do any more books. I write lots of articles because an
article I can knock off in acouple of weeks or whatever, a week,
even a few days, and Isend it out to magazines and they
publish it usually because it's an interestingtopics a book. You know, when
(30:18):
I write a book, kept todo research, it's more extensive, it's
more time, and I don't hitthe patients to do that anymore. Once
I did, but not anymore.No, I want to thank you,
Professor, Professor Robert Rockaway, Professoremeritus at Televid University. And as you
mentioned, he's the author, buthe was good to his mother The Lives
(30:40):
and Crimes of Jewish Gangsters. Buthe's here about the fascinating article about Hitler's
Arion actually Jewish baby Hitler's Jewish Babyphoto Contest nineteen thirty five. They wanted
to show the most beautiful Arian baby. Who do they portray a Jewish baby?
And we just are talking about thatcrazy or crazy crazy. He came
(31:00):
back to the Jewish baby, themost perfect arean baby in Germany. Unbelievable.
Professor Robert Brockway, thank you forsharing with us my pleasure, my
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(31:23):
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down. You're listening to Talk Linewith zeb Brenner, America's premier Jewish broadcast
on the year since nineteen eighty one. And now here's your hosting Welcome back
to the program, Mom zeb Brenner. There's much sensation about this. As
soon Codex can going on seal aSotobies this week. It could get maybe
(36:24):
between thirty and forty million dollars.That's right, that's a certain lot of
money with us right now is ShaulSeilo, Fellow Graduate University. He is
also today consulting with Sotobies New York. So, Charlotte heard you speak of
the Jewish Center today. He dida wonderful job. So thank you for
joining us. Thank you so muchfor having men My pleasure tell us what
(36:46):
exactly is the Codex as Soon.Also, let me just begin by saying
that I've been privileged to work onthis codex together with my calling Sharonments.
But for purposes of this program,I guess I'm speaking as shuttle Sideler failure
Um not necessarily in the south oftheas capacity. But but x is to
(37:07):
take a step back, is athousand year old plus um codex, that
is to say, a book forma copy of ten Tenaugh written out in
a stroll, but rather in whatyou and I recognize as a book.
It was written probably in Artistral orin Syria, in the greater region that
(37:29):
we refer to that in the regionthat we referred to as Greater Syria about
the year nine hundred and nine fifties, somewhere in the early tenth century.
The reason that Codex Issuon is soimportant for members of the interested interested Jewish
population is that Um Codex as Soonrepresents what we refer to as the masoretic
(37:52):
text of the Tana, that isto say, the Tenough together with the
vowel points that he could as wellas the tamme trp or cancellation marks,
and also very importantly the text ofthe Massora. The Massora being the tradition
of how the text of Tanah issupposed to be written and preserved as it's
(38:12):
copied by one's private after the otherover centuries and centuries until the present day.
So we refer to it as themasoretic text. And this Tanah,
as I say, is one ofthe oldest and apparently the most complete among
the old tanaim that we have fromthis very early stage of the masoretic So
(38:34):
it's a thousand over a thousand yearsold, which means that if you're not
sure about a word, how it'sspelled, or or or maybe even the
word itself. Could I know youpointed out there's something words that we have
it one way, but it wasreally maybe in a different word completely.
So this is the authentic way ofchecking it out. So is this is
not the only one. There's alsodo you have the Aleppo? You have
(38:57):
I think the Lenargrad one to what? So first of all, let's look
at all three of them. Whatmakes them unique? How are they're very
similar? What are the difference betweenall the other codex as well? An
excellent question, thank you for asking. So the Aleppo Codex is probably the
best known among the three. It'sknown as the Aleppo Quodex because it had
been capped most recently before its currentplace of rest in the Great Synagogue of
(39:22):
Aleppo, and it was there forhundreds of years. But we know according
to the Rambam and also from otherscholarship that's been done, the Aleppo Quodex
was probably created around the year ninethirty. We don't have an exact date,
but we think that that's the approximatedate because of another dated book from
(39:42):
nine twenty nine written by the samesofa at the same describe. So the
Aleppo Quodex is from about the yearnine thirty from the region of Tiberia's Tavaria,
the Kenera at the sea of GalleryGalilee, excuse me. And it
has the distinction of being what's consideredby most scholars and also by Jewish tradition
(40:04):
to be the most accurate version ofwhat I referred to the before the master
retic text of the Bible. Itwas edited by a masteri the Masran known
as a Haroun benmosche Vasher. Hewas one of the ballet maasa from the
sort of the end of the tufaof the ballet Masra, and he went
(40:25):
through, according to the Ramam,for years and years and years he owned
this book, and he edited itto make sure that it was as correct
as as possible as humanly possible,and the Rama rites, and that when
he came to write his own copyof the Torah and in scroll format,
in order to fulfill the mitzvah thatevery Jew has to write a safer Tora,
(40:47):
he relied on the what would becomethe elepo Quotas, what would become
known as the lepo Quodex. Forthat purpose. He says that it was
the safer Yadua that was in Jerusalemfor many years us down in Egypt,
and most scholars believe that he's referringto the Aleppo Codex. So it has
that great has coma, if youwill, from the Rambam, great approbation
(41:10):
of authority, and it is consideredto be the most accurate copy of the
Revival. However, it should benoted that the Aleppo Codex is currently missing
about thirty five percent of its contents. Under what are probably wasn't the whole
intrigue they say was stolen. Therewas a supposedly a fire. But even
though there was a far some ofthe documents ended up floating around Brooklyn elsewhere.
(41:35):
Yes, you're exactly right, Bennett, so um so there is some
intrigue surrounding this, including people showingup or I guess turning up dead in
hotel rooms, and all sorts offunny business happening, including as you mentioned,
the fact that a couple of pagesfrom the codex have turned up in
(41:59):
private hands in Brooklyn over the courseof the decades. But but yes,
it about thirty five percent, asthey say, of the text is missing
currently, including importantly most of thehomage, most of the pentitude, which
means that if we are interested intrying to reproduce the most accurate version of
(42:22):
Tanach possible, we have to relyon other manuscripts in order to do so.
In other testimony about the Alepo Codex, so that's with respect to the
level Bodos you also ask about thelening Grad Quodex. I'll just say very
briefly, lenning Grad Codex has thedistinction of being the earliest enough that is
complete from beginning to meaning from graciousall the way to the end of the
(42:45):
Cuban hagiographer. We have everything inone book by one scribe. It is
slightly later than the Lebo Codex andalso then Quodex assumed. And it's not
one hundred percent accurate. It doesn'thoax. I can't answer that question.
(43:08):
But but it's not one hundred percentaccurate. It doesn't have that level of
accuracy that the Level Codex has.But it is a very important manuscript for
visical studies. And as as youalluded to before, the assumed codex Um
is really the third and this triumvirate, if we can call it that,
(43:30):
in the sense that it's earlier thanthe lenin grad products, but not as
complete as lenin grad products. It'smissing probably between eight and ten percent of
the words of ten Augh, butit's also and on the other hand,
I should say it is more completethan the Aleppo Codex, which as I
mentioned, is missing about thirty fivepercent of the text, but doesn't have
(43:53):
that ethos if you will, thatthe drama attributes to it in terms of
its accuracy and its reliability, althoughit is approximately contemporary with the Alepo Quodex.
How to get the name of SassuKodak, you have the Elepocals based
Elepo of Lenagrad shouldn't have been labeledthe Syrian Kodaks or wherever it was first
(44:15):
written. Very good questions, Soyou're absolutely right, um Sobabies, in
devising a way of talking about thisfor marketing purposes, decided that it was
important to name this book Um thepreviously and if you look into scholarly literature
about um, you know Hebrew importantBible, important Hebrew Bibles. This manuscript
(44:37):
is actually referred to by its shelfmark in library of the great collector David
Salmons as it's referred to as Assumeten fifty three, and that's generally how
you will see it, you know, talked about in the literature. However,
as you can imagine, Sosume tenfifty three does not sell as well
(44:57):
as codecs as Soon. So asa result, there was a discussion in
the marketing department and the Judaica teamand we decided to call it Codex so
Soon. As I mentioned, itwas owned by this great bibliophile and collector
if uber manuscripts, David Soloman soSoon, and we thought that it would
be appropriate to name the book afterhim now because of his relationships. That
(45:20):
makes sense. Now he bought itat a very inexpensive price. Give us
the history, because now we're lookingat maybe thirty to forty million dollars purchase.
Bro who knows how much is goingto go for is going on orction
this week. But if I rememberhearing you correctly, he was originally purpose
for Bubkus for a couple of downs, right, Yes, that's a great
question. So David Toison was anincredible negotiator. When he was first offered
(45:47):
the book in nineteen twenty nine,he got he got a letter from an
associate of his named Aaron Frehman,who is a professor and librarian and book
dealer based in Frankfurt in Germany.And he receives this letter in March of
nineteen twenty nine, in which ournFreeman said that he had a client who
(46:07):
wanted to sell this very old TENA. He calls it probably one of the
oldest bibles that we have, andhe says that the asking price is six
hundred pounds. Now that's also,you know, not the same as the
estimate that we have on it now. But six hundred pounds back in nineteen
twenty nine, was that was moneyyou know that wasn't an insignificant price.
(46:28):
My research when we were looking intoall of this and writing up the catalog,
turned off that in nineteen twenty five, the average wage earner in Britain
would have made about two hundred andsixty pounds a year. So you have
to you have to think to yourself, that's two hundred pounds. It's probably
two and a half years salary foran average individual living in England at the
(46:51):
time, So that was money.But but as I mentioned before, David
Sisson was an excellent negotiator and andhe managed to get the price down to
three hundred and fifty pounds. Inthe course of his correspondence with our on
Freeman, he mentions that he lookedat the book and it's damaged. It
has he asked, he's going tohave to rebind it and restore it and
(47:13):
send it for conservation. So sothose were his note to feel well,
those were his planes that allowed himto make to bring down the price to
three hundred and fifty pounds. Butwith time, more and as more and
more people have looked at this bookand come to realize it's importance, its
(47:35):
value and prestige, has have onlyincreased. So the first time that it
was sold at public auction was nineteenseventy eight. Then it's sold for the
equivalent of about three hundred twenty thousanddollars. Eleven years later, in nineteen
eighty nine, it's sold for theequivalent of about three point one nine million
dollars, and now another thirty threeyears on approximately we're talking about in estment,
(47:57):
as you mentioned, of thirty tofifty million dollars. So let me
ask this this question. I knowwe have inflation today. Inflation is very
big, but it seems to gofrom three point five million dollars to thirty
forty fifty million dollars, which itcould fetch an auctions slightly beyond the inflation.
What makes the Codex at Soon worththirty forty fifty million dollars. Yeah,
(48:22):
so that's an excellent question. Also, I think that the thinking behind
this is that um Soties does abrisk trade in important books and manuscripts,
and they have a history of achievinghigh prices for UM for important historical documents.
One of the biggest prices that theyever get for anything, right,
(48:45):
this could be one of the biggestmoneys they'll get for anything at this so
sobby So's lots of stuff throughout theyear, the biggest, not the biggest.
This could be the highest grossing bookauction. That is true. I
believe there are plenty pieces of artthat's selling this range and even more expensive.
(49:06):
But in terms of books and manuscripts, this is actually the highest estimate
I'm told placed on any book ora manuscript put up for public auction.
But to your question before about wherethe prize comes from, so they try
to do their diligence, their duediligends, and look at similar sales of
(49:28):
important historical documents. So most recentlyin twenty twenty one, there was a
copy of the US Constitution which soldits set apiece for a record forty three
point two million dollars. And it'simportant to note that that was one of
two copies in private hands and oneof fifteen original copies of the Constitution in
(49:49):
existence. So part of the thinkingon the part of the team that came
up with the estimate is that youknow, when you're talking about something like
Codex as Soon, which is reallythe only book like it, certainly the
only book in private hands. Ifyou want to take into consideration the Level
Codex and lend Gund Codex. Thoseare owned by institutions, So the thinking
(50:15):
was that this should this should grossat least as much as the US Constitution,
if not more. And then thereare also some other less expensive books
but still important sales that were relevant, including it was known as Kodex Lyster,
which was a copy of Sorry,an original manuscript by Leonardo da Vinci,
(50:35):
purchased by Bill Gates in the ninetiesfor thirty point one million dollars.
Bill Gates going to be on thecox if he is, he hasn't told
me, but we're certainly willing tohave him register does the work. Sotoby
sells the pace thirty forty fifty milliondollars, Who gets the money? So
(50:59):
that's that's a good question too.Yeah, The way it generally works is
that an item of this importance isput up for auction, and we do
our marketing push and then comes today the auction, and there will be
some people getting in the room,probably some people getting online and on the
phone. I imagine most of theaction will be on the phone, And
(51:21):
when the gabble goes down, that'scalled the hammer price. So that's that's
the money that goes to the ownerof the property. In this case,
the owner of the current owner isa fellow named Jackie Saffra is a very
important collector of Hebrew manuscripts based inGeneva, and he is putting this item
up for auction. So the hammerprice goes to mister Saffra, and Sobebies
(51:45):
makes a commission on the sale.In this case it would be twelve percent
of the hammer price plus an additionalone percent storage fee if I'm not mistaken,
and then you have to tack onNew York sales tax if you want
to pick it up in New York, which I imagine you probably want to
avoid the attack on marketing feast too. Yeah, yeah, really, we're
(52:14):
serving with Schaul Seila Feller. He'sa consultant for Sothbies. We're looking at
the codecs as soon, which couldfetch up to fifty million dollars in auction
this week. We're the people ofthe book, So where's yours? Have
you ever wanted to write and publishyour own book? Are you concerned that
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(52:35):
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(53:21):
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After so many wars and acts ofterrorism, the people of Israel are at
(54:07):
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difference by making a gift to supportmagend Vita Dome, Israel's ambulance and blood
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(54:30):
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a gift today and help save livesin Israel. Call eight six six sixty
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thousand. You can book for summeras well, and don't forget who All
Begins with Chavois eight four or fiveseven nine four, six thousand, Online
Destinations six thirteen dot com. You'relistening to talk Line with Zev Brenner is
premier Jewish broadcast on the year sincenineteen eighty one. Now, m Zeph
(07:09):
Brenner. It's been many years sincewe last had our guest. Professor Robert
Rockaway. He's a professor emeritus atTelevision University. He's the author of a
few books, including a bestseller whichwe spoke to him a while back.
Hold but he was good to hismother. The Lies and Crimes of Jewish
Gangsters, he wrote Leaving the AuldOrthodox Fold. He co authored that book.
He's written with the publications. Buthe's back because he's uncovered an amazing
(07:32):
story of Hitler's Jewish baby. Professor, how are you? That's what you're
okay? Yeah, I'm walking intomy salon or living room to you,
and you see article I wrote Hitleris Jewish Baby. So Hitler, you
(07:53):
know, they want to show theworld, but an Arian baby was like,
let's go back to nineteen thirty fiveand what happened with magazine called the
Son of the House. In thewinter of nineteen thirty five, few months
after the German government passed the Nuremberglass, the Nazi family magazine zona Inhaus sponsored
(08:13):
a photographic competition to find quote,the perfect Aryan child. On January twenty
four, nineteen thirty five, publisheda front page photograph of the winter a
beautiful six month old baby girl namedHessie. Levinson's Nazi propaganda showcased the baby
as quote the perfect Aryan baby unbnouncedto the judges, Hessie was Jewish.
(08:39):
Okay, so that's hers. Shewas born into Jewish famil boy, She's
a beautiful baby, by the way, I mean really a beautiful girl six
months old, She lovely, lovelyface. You wouldn't tell it was Jewish
or not. I mean, howdo you tell from a baby six months
old? Her nose was tiny thatthat's not what they call the Jewish or
ata in those and the father andmother were employee. The father was an
(09:03):
opera singer, and he was Hetook them a non Jewish name, Yasha
Lenson, to hide his Jewish identitybecause of the anti Semitism. You have
to remember when it was in Germany. I mean the Nazis were in power,
the Germans. You know, Inever say not to say Germans.
They were all Germans, and youhad this rising anti Semitism in Berlin.
(09:28):
And when they found out that directorsfound out that his family was really was
eleven sons, they canceled the contractand so the family was stuck living in
a one room apartment and they hadthis portrait. They took their baby to
a photographer they had nothing else todo, and it was one of the
(09:48):
best photographers in Berlin, and hemade a beautiful picture. And the picture
was so beautiful. They had ittrained and they put it on the piano,
and then people were visiting them andthey said, can we use the
picture? Yeah, and they tookthe picture and they put it in the
Nazi magazine Son and the Son inthe house, and nobody knew that it
(10:09):
was a Jewish baby. This thingwent all over Germany, all over those
areas occupied by the Germans, andyou had this picture of the perfect Arian
baby. The parents were traumatized,and the parents professor. The parents didn't
put the picture into the publication.They didn't even know about it. Somebody
else but they didn't know, that'sright. The parents were traumatized because they
(10:31):
were afraid if they found out thatthis baby, who nobody knew as Jewish,
was Jewish. If they found out, they would be killed immediately.
You know, the Nazis didn't forthe German When people say Nazis, I
mean all the Nazis were Germans.Not all Germans were Nazis, but all
the Nazis were Germans, So whatdo I use the word German. That's
who they were. And if theywould have found out about this, they
(10:54):
would have killed the whole family andcovered it all up. And so the
photograph was arranged by the Nazi propagandadepartment in Joseph Giggles to showcase the ideal
beautiful Arian baby. And this thingwent all over the country, all over
the areas occupied by the Germans,and you know, and most people did
(11:18):
know, but some people did.But the family was terrified. They wanted
to get the heck out of Germanyand go somewhere, but you couldn't get
out that easily. So they wereafraid that the family was Jewish. And
the photographer said to the no,I knew that you're Jewish, he said,
but I just wanted to give itto the Germans. He wouldn't pay
the price for it. They wouldhave paid. He wants to give it
(11:39):
to them. But the baby thatthey picked is a Jewish, perfect Arian
baby. So what happened was thepaper. The paper was edited by a
friend of Hermann Gerings and the wholebusiness and were terrified. The family was.
I mean, the photo went everywhere. It was on birthday cards every
place, and they didn't know whatthe heck to do, Okay, that
(12:01):
they really they were. The familywas traumatized and they tried to hide it.
They tried to cover it up,and they did eventually they did.
But many years later, Hessie thegirl was asked what she would say today
to the photographer who entered her picturein the contest, and she said that
(12:22):
I would tell him, good foryou for having the courage. Right,
he had the courage, but youknow, she would have paid the talked
about she said. I can laughabout it now, she says, but
if the Nazis had known who Iwas, I wouldn't be alive today to
tell you about it. And sothat's that's that's what happened. But Professor
(12:43):
took my hands balance and he submittedabout ten photographs, and there were hunters
of photographs that were submitted to exactlyjust this photographed one. She was a
beautiful child. I have it onmy computer and was published Tablet Magazine,
and I wrote the article for TabooMagazine as well, and they came,
they came and published the photograph.She was an adorable, beautiful baby.
(13:07):
There was nothing about her that youcould identify as Jewish. Luckily, by
nineteen forty two the family was desperateto get out because the picture was in
France and the Germans occupied France.You know, the French army, which
was bigger than the German army,fell in a month. The country was
occupied within a month. And innineteen forty two, finally the family gets
(13:30):
a visa for Cuba, and theyget they go, they go to Cuba.
They go there, okay, andthey made it. They make it
to Cuba and they lived there untilthey were able a number of years later
to go to the United States.And her story hessey, It goes on.
You know. The father said,look, he said, she says.
(13:52):
The father said, I survived Hitler, I survived Castro, and he
did so. She in Cuba,they went to the States. They made
it back, they made it intothe United States, and she ended up
going to high school in New York, New York City, Julia Richmond High
School, and she studied chemistry atBarnard College. She graduated in nineteen fifty
(14:16):
five. She worked at Bemia fora while and then worked in the educational
testing service for thirty years, andthen she ended up as a professor chemistry
professor at Saint John's University. Andthat was it and her family, immediate
family, survived the Holocaust. Everyoneelse in the family aside from her immediate
(14:37):
family, mother, father, brothersand sisters, if she had any all
all the rest of them were murderedby the Nazis. They were the only
ones that survived. And you knowit's tragic. I mean, if you
read about the Holocaust, you wantto drop a bomb on Berlin, you
know really. And by the way, the people who have created the atomic
(14:58):
bomb, most of them were Jewish. They were physicists from Hungary and other
places. They created the bomb tobe dropped on Berlin. But then the
war was over, so the Americansdropped it on Japan, the atomic bomb,
but they wanted it dropped on Berlin. They wanted to get back at
Germany for what they did. Now, I didn't know about you, but
(15:18):
to this day, and I didn'tgo through it. I was born in
nineteen thirty nine. I mean,okay, so I went through the war,
but I went through the war withmy family in the United States.
But to this until today, Ican't forgive Germany for what they did to
us. No memoralizing and there wasa war against the jew But let me
ask you this question. Though theywanted this was a Gerbels production of this
(15:41):
magazine, was a Nazi magazine,but they wanted to highlight and portray the
typical Arian baby. But the typicalArian baby was supposed to have blond hair
and blue eyes. And this younglady, I believe I had brown hair
and brown eyes, right, Ihad, right, you know, the
(16:03):
image of the typical or the areaand Nazi with blue eyes, blonde hair,
you know, small nose or astraight nose or whatever. This kid,
she was beautiful, but you hadbrown hair and brown eyes. But
beautiful baby. She woke a beautifulbaby. And uh, people just ignored
that and saw the face and didn'tsay Jewish, not Jewish, And they
(16:27):
went all across Germany, was onpostcards and on wedding invitations, and it
was on greeting cards. It wasall over and everywhere the Germans occupied.
They publicized it in magazines and everythingelse, and the picture was it was
she was Jewish. And many yearslater they asked her she said, it
(16:48):
was my revenge against the Chans forwhat they did, you know, having
her picture everywhere and speaking with ProfessorRobert Ronkaway, he's in Israel. He's
written the fascinating arm called Hitler's JewishBaby, about a Jewish baby named Hesse
Levinson that was portrayed as an Arianbaby and a Nazi magazine. And nineteen
(17:10):
thirty five, this is Idanie Rodriguez, Commissioner of the New York City Departments
or Transportation Mayor Eric Adams, andI want to Immanu that things happened fast
on the street. When you're driving, you're speaking, feel slow, but
if you hit someone easterly Finally,fast drivers watch out for petitions and cyclists
(17:33):
and slowly turns to less down fivemiles per hour, remember speeding ruins lives.
Slow down. Hi, everyone,My name's Cryan lip Tech, a
long time friend and supporter of theAmerican Friends of the Terry Kohanim. You
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The American Friends of the Terry KOHANEYMhas his annual Yom Mushalim celebration, and
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(18:21):
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Dome at Red Star for Israel dotorg Save a Life in Israel Today.
Welcome back to the program. I'mZev Brenner. We're speaking with Professor Robert
Rockaway, professor emeritus at Televid University, and he's written a book that we
had on previously called He Was Goodto His Mother The Lies and Crimes of
Jewish Gangsters. But his newest articleis called Hitler's Jewish Baby. A Nazi
(20:40):
magazine held a photo contest for theperfect Aryan baby that made one mistaken.
Who did they pick? Hessie Levinson, a six month old Jewish baby who
they portrayed as being the perfect Aryanchild. Lawson a Jewish name, professor.
Yeah, so when they printed thebaby's name, when they put Hessy
(21:03):
that they use the word Levinson.They'll use a different name when they printed
the picture. No, no,no, Levinson. They used the name
Levinson. Yeah, which you couldsay, it's a German name too.
It doesn't have to be a Jewishname. I mean, you know,
Rosenberg is also a German name,you know, I mean Rosenberg was the
Nazi government and the last name ofhis name was Rosenberg. And now so
(21:23):
Jews have Rosenberg, but there's theRosenberg, so you have you know,
there's a mixture there. Jewish namesand German names are very very similar,
okay. And they people saw thepicture and told her about They visited her
and they said, you know,we saw Hessy's picture. I'm such and
such a magazine. The family wasterrified. Their family was terrified, and
(21:48):
uh, I mean they were worried. They were desperate to get the heck
out of the country. And sothey went to a doctor and they said,
look, can you do something.He says no, he said nothing
I can do. He's but youdon't have to be afraid. When they
went to France, and they wereterrified, and they bade it to France,
and they went to a doctor thereand he says, listen, you
don't have to worry about it.The Germans aren't here. A month later,
(22:11):
Germans occupied France Paris in nineteen forty, and they smuggled the family got
smuggled. They paid off some peopleand her and the family were smuggled into
the Free Zone in Southern France.Remember it was vs. France to Southern
France. And then in nineteen fortyone the family managed to get a visa
(22:33):
to the United States, but luckilyit expired, but luckily they got a
visit to Cuba. They entered Cubaand they went to Cuba, and from
there they moved them. Eventually theygot they were able to go to Cuba
to the United States and that's wherethey lived. That's where she went to
school and where she went to university, and she got married there as she
(22:57):
got older and her name Hessie Levinson, he got married and became Hessy Levinson
tact her last name Tasked. Herfather stayed behind in Havana, Cuba,
because he had a business there,and stayed there until Saidel Castro came to
power. The business went bankrupt andthe father left. But her father said
(23:18):
to her, he said, look, I survived Hitler. I also survived
Castro. And she was She wasthere in New York. She studied chemistry
at high school in New York City, and then she went to Barnard College
and studied chemistry, graduated fifty five. She helped run the chemistry exam the
(23:38):
educational Chemistry exam, and then intwo thousand she went back to New York
and became a professor at Saint John'sUniversity and stayed there until she retired on
two thousand and sixteen. And herresearch project there was the how do how
do you pronoun it? Water sustainability? Whatever that is? So what's never?
(24:03):
Professor Robert Rockaway is our guests.He's uh, he's written a couple
of interests. He survived the wholepost. They were the only one just
letting people know who were there listeningto Professor Robert Rockaway is our guests.
He's in Israel. Uh, he'swritten a fascinating book that we had him
on a long time ago. Itwas good to his mother about Jewish gaxes.
But his recent article, which wasin Tablet magazine, is called Hitler's
(24:27):
Jewish Baby. A Nazi magazine helda photo contest for the perfect Arian baby.
Made one mistake when he picked thewinner because the winner was a Jewish
baby. How'd you find out aboutit? Because you just wrote about it?
Now it happens in the nineteen thirtyfive. How did you discover it?
You know, it's interesting how thingshappened, you know, I never
know if things happened just by chance, or we all have in our lives
(24:49):
a hand that guides us. It'scalled it's called the hand that's called the
hand to God, to God.And you know, I mean need I
believe that there is a hand guidingus. Robert Rockaway, who knows what
I mean. I mean, Icame across it. I was reading a
magazine and going through some other stuff. I was doing the search on something,
(25:10):
and I came across this artitude.You know, I was looking at
old magazines and things, and Icame across this magazine, which was a
German magazine, a Nazi magazine.I was that st I was going to
write about the Nazis and things,and I came across it, and I
came across this picture of this quoteperfect arian baby, and I looked at
(25:32):
the name, and I started doingsome research on the name, and it
came up as it was, shewas of Jewish descent, and so it
was. The family was fortified bythe way when this happened, when the
picture was published, because it wastheir daughter, the parents, and her
face was plastered all over the streetsand storefronts, you know, and covered
(25:56):
in magazine, you know, onthe front of the store and in windows
and newspapers and in magazines, andit was distributed on postcards throughout Germany,
The perfect aryan child. And thenI mean, it's crazy when you look
at history, it's like it's blackhumor in a way, it's you know,
(26:17):
And and the family was so terrified. They didn't let her play in
the park, they didn't let hergo outside anymore. And she said herself,
I couldn't play in the park,I couldn't go to the zoo,
which was my favorite place. Shewas literally confined to her house and stayed
there until the war was over,and then she was able to go out.
(26:37):
Because it tells me what happened whentell us what happened when a friend
of the family was visiting a Germanwoman's apartment and spotted Hesse's photo framed on
the wall, and the Jewish womanshouted, at it's Hessie Levinson. And
what happened there? Yeah, Well, she saw the picture and she said,
look, oh, this is theHessey Levinson. That's not it's just
(27:00):
a picture that I have. Andthe woman you looked at it said no,
it's got to be her. Andthen forgot about it and that was
it. She just you know,ignored it, didn't report it to anybody,
didn't report it to the government.Now you gotta think nineteen thirty five.
I mean it was for if therewere Jews left Germany, and there
were, you know, it wasit was terrified. They were looking for
(27:21):
them all the time. And whenit into the Nazis or the Germans,
I mean they were all the Naziswere all Germans. The Germans, you
know that they would have killed youimmediately. They wouldn't avoided they would have
just said, they would have shothim right away. And then uh,
the doctor. They went to adoctor in France who had visited parish and
he said, you don't have toworry there. A month later they occupied
(27:45):
the Germans practice. Let me askProfessor Rock, we have all the a
few moments left. Let me askyou this. And you know I worked
people to read this article when Ilast had you on about twenty some years
ago about he was good to hismother about Jewish gangsters. You went about
that. I know that's one ofthe especially he's writing about the Jewish gangsters
or finding people are unusual. Youfound the gangster that didn't kill on Shoppist.
(28:06):
That was orthodox. Oh yeah,Samuel red Lusine why Reddy had was
a redhead. He didn't kill onShavists. He wore a key park a
spell cap under his regular hat,and he stopped killing Friday, from Friday
afternoon to Saturday night. Muld sayShabbat. He didn't. He didn't take
any contract to kill. But ifhe had to, and this is true,
(28:29):
if he had to kill some ofthe there was nobody of avoiding it.
First he would put on his palague, he would say his prayers,
you know, schmist Rail or whateverhe prayers for Sabbat. Then he'd go
out and do the job. Buthe did the job. He did the
job after shops, not on Shabbists, right right, Never on Shavist.
But he was a contract killer.But if he couldn't no way of avoiding
it, he would purst pray andthen he would go out and do the
(28:51):
job on Schovists itself. He didn'tcraziness Old professor I thought that that he
observed Shaba didn't kill on show.You're saying that he actually did killings on
shop is too if you put onkill if he had no choice, Yeah,
But first he went and prayed.He said it frisis. Well,
I don't know if he said amoment that's way or anything else, elane
or whatever. Actually, the onlyprayer that counts is really amis you have
(29:12):
the shama. So he said that, and when he went out and did
the job. And you know,if you would have asked him, if
he was alive and sitting in frontof him, how could you do that?
They said, Look, I hadno choice. You know, it
was my business killer. You know, I have to do what they pay
me to do. And he said, but I did pray before I did
it on shop. I'll figure itout. You figure it out. Figure
(29:36):
it out, Professor Roach, Iinterviewed some of these guys, so you
know, I mean whatever they tellme, I say, okay, fine,
yeah, great, okay, wow, Wow. What's your next article?
A book going to be about theGangster book? Or what? What's
you You have another book in theoffering or another article and you're writing what?
No? I mean. I havea book on the Jews of Detroit,
(29:56):
I have a book on Jewish immigrants, I have the Angster Book.
But I have no haystick, likethey say, at this point in my
life, to do any more books. I write lots of articles because an
article I can knock off in acouple of weeks or whatever, a week,
even a few days, and Isend it out to magazines and they
publish it usually because it's an interestingtopics a book. You know, when
(30:18):
I write a book, kept todo research, it's more extensive, it's
more time, and I don't hitthe patients to do that anymore. Once
I did, but not anymore.No, I want to thank you,
Professor, Professor Robert Rockaway, Professoremeritus at Televid University. And as you
mentioned, he's the author, buthe was good to his mother The Lives
(30:40):
and Crimes of Jewish Gangsters. Buthe's here about the fascinating article about Hitler's
Arion actually Jewish baby Hitler's Jewish Babyphoto Contest nineteen thirty five. They wanted
to show the most beautiful Arian baby. Who do they portray a Jewish baby?
And we just are talking about thatcrazy or crazy crazy. He came
(31:00):
back to the Jewish baby, themost perfect arean baby in Germany. Unbelievable.
Professor Robert Brockway, thank you forsharing with us my pleasure, my
pleasure. Stay well, take careof yourself. All your listeners just do
well. We look on the futurebroadcast. Thank you. You're listening to
talk Line with Zev Brenner, America'spremier Jewish broadcast on the air since nineteen
(31:23):
eighty one. Ladies and gentlemen,to everybody listening to this wonderful broadcast of
talk Line communications, Zev Brenner isgiving you an opportunity to join me and
hundreds of other dedicated Jews who loveyou with Jalium by attending our American friends
about Tarot Coin Yim yo mu JalianCelebration May seventeenth, two weeks from now,
(31:49):
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email zev Renner at gewall dot com. After so many wars and acts of
(33:19):
terrorism, the people of Israel areat risk again. Israelis are living with
constant danger, and many of usare at a loss as to how to
help. But you can make areal difference by making a gift to support
Magen Da Vita Dome, Israel's ambulanceand blood service. Your gift will provide
urgently needed medical supplies, help Israel'sBlood Services Center and provide equipment to MDA's
(33:40):
twenty five thousand volunteer EMTs. Andwhen you support Magenda Vita Dome, you're
supporting one of the world's leading masscasualty trauma response organizations. So you know
your gift will have an impact.Make a gift today and help save lives
in Israel. Call eight six sixsixty three two two seven six three.
That's eight sixty six sixty three twotwo seven sixty three for visit American Friends
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of mcgen de Vita Dome at RedStar for Israel dot org. Save a
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is Idani Rodriguez, Commissioner of theNew York City Department or Transportation, Mayor
Eric Adams, and I one twoemmanu that things have been fast on the
street. When you're driving, you'respeaking, feel slow, but if you
hit someone easterly. Finally, fastdrivers watch out for petitions and cyclists and
slowly turns to less than five milesper hour. Remember speedy ruins lives slow
(36:02):
down. You're listening to Talk Linewith zeb Brenner, America's premier Jewish broadcast
on the year since nineteen eighty one. And now here's your hosting Welcome back
to the program, Mom zeb Brenner. There's much sensation about this. As
soon Codex can going on seal aSotobies this week. It could get maybe
(36:24):
between thirty and forty million dollars.That's right, that's a certain lot of
money with us right now is ShaulSeilo, Fellow Graduate University. He is
also today consulting with Sotobies New York. So, Charlotte heard you speak of
the Jewish Center today. He dida wonderful job. So thank you for
joining us. Thank you so muchfor having men My pleasure tell us what
(36:46):
exactly is the Codex as Soon.Also, let me just begin by saying
that I've been privileged to work onthis codex together with my calling Sharonments.
But for purposes of this program,I guess I'm speaking as shuttle Sideler failure
Um not necessarily in the south oftheas capacity. But but x is to
(37:07):
take a step back, is athousand year old plus um codex, that
is to say, a book forma copy of ten Tenaugh written out in
a stroll, but rather in whatyou and I recognize as a book.
It was written probably in Artistral orin Syria, in the greater region that
(37:29):
we refer to that in the regionthat we referred to as Greater Syria about
the year nine hundred and nine fifties, somewhere in the early tenth century.
The reason that Codex Issuon is soimportant for members of the interested interested Jewish
population is that Um Codex as Soonrepresents what we refer to as the masoretic
(37:52):
text of the Tana, that isto say, the Tenough together with the
vowel points that he could as wellas the tamme trp or cancellation marks,
and also very importantly the text ofthe Massora. The Massora being the tradition
of how the text of Tanah issupposed to be written and preserved as it's
(38:12):
copied by one's private after the otherover centuries and centuries until the present day.
So we refer to it as themasoretic text. And this Tanah,
as I say, is one ofthe oldest and apparently the most complete among
the old tanaim that we have fromthis very early stage of the masoretic So
(38:34):
it's a thousand over a thousand yearsold, which means that if you're not
sure about a word, how it'sspelled, or or or maybe even the
word itself. Could I know youpointed out there's something words that we have
it one way, but it wasreally maybe in a different word completely.
So this is the authentic way ofchecking it out. So is this is
not the only one. There's alsodo you have the Aleppo? You have
(38:57):
I think the Lenargrad one to what? So first of all, let's look
at all three of them. Whatmakes them unique? How are they're very
similar? What are the difference betweenall the other codex as well? An
excellent question, thank you for asking. So the Aleppo Codex is probably the
best known among the three. It'sknown as the Aleppo Quodex because it had
been capped most recently before its currentplace of rest in the Great Synagogue of
(39:22):
Aleppo, and it was there forhundreds of years. But we know according
to the Rambam and also from otherscholarship that's been done, the Aleppo Quodex
was probably created around the year ninethirty. We don't have an exact date,
but we think that that's the approximatedate because of another dated book from
(39:42):
nine twenty nine written by the samesofa at the same describe. So the
Aleppo Quodex is from about the yearnine thirty from the region of Tiberia's Tavaria,
the Kenera at the sea of GalleryGalilee, excuse me. And it
has the distinction of being what's consideredby most scholars and also by Jewish tradition
(40:04):
to be the most accurate version ofwhat I referred to the before the master
retic text of the Bible. Itwas edited by a masteri the Masran known
as a Haroun benmosche Vasher. Hewas one of the ballet maasa from the
sort of the end of the tufaof the ballet Masra, and he went
(40:25):
through, according to the Ramam,for years and years and years he owned
this book, and he edited itto make sure that it was as correct
as as possible as humanly possible,and the Rama rites, and that when
he came to write his own copyof the Torah and in scroll format,
in order to fulfill the mitzvah thatevery Jew has to write a safer Tora,
(40:47):
he relied on the what would becomethe elepo Quotas, what would become
known as the lepo Quodex. Forthat purpose. He says that it was
the safer Yadua that was in Jerusalemfor many years us down in Egypt,
and most scholars believe that he's referringto the Aleppo Codex. So it has
that great has coma, if youwill, from the Rambam, great approbation
(41:10):
of authority, and it is consideredto be the most accurate copy of the
Revival. However, it should benoted that the Aleppo Codex is currently missing
about thirty five percent of its contents. Under what are probably wasn't the whole
intrigue they say was stolen. Therewas a supposedly a fire. But even
though there was a far some ofthe documents ended up floating around Brooklyn elsewhere.
(41:35):
Yes, you're exactly right, Bennett, so um so there is some
intrigue surrounding this, including people showingup or I guess turning up dead in
hotel rooms, and all sorts offunny business happening, including as you mentioned,
the fact that a couple of pagesfrom the codex have turned up in
(41:59):
private hands in Brooklyn over the courseof the decades. But but yes,
it about thirty five percent, asthey say, of the text is missing
currently, including importantly most of thehomage, most of the pentitude, which
means that if we are interested intrying to reproduce the most accurate version of
(42:22):
Tanach possible, we have to relyon other manuscripts in order to do so.
In other testimony about the Alepo Codex, so that's with respect to the
level Bodos you also ask about thelening Grad Quodex. I'll just say very
briefly, lenning Grad Codex has thedistinction of being the earliest enough that is
complete from beginning to meaning from graciousall the way to the end of the
(42:45):
Cuban hagiographer. We have everything inone book by one scribe. It is
slightly later than the Lebo Codex andalso then Quodex assumed. And it's not
one hundred percent accurate. It doesn'thoax. I can't answer that question.
(43:08):
But but it's not one hundred percentaccurate. It doesn't have that level of
accuracy that the Level Codex has.But it is a very important manuscript for
visical studies. And as as youalluded to before, the assumed codex Um
is really the third and this triumvirate, if we can call it that,
(43:30):
in the sense that it's earlier thanthe lenin grad products, but not as
complete as lenin grad products. It'smissing probably between eight and ten percent of
the words of ten Augh, butit's also and on the other hand,
I should say it is more completethan the Aleppo Codex, which as I
mentioned, is missing about thirty fivepercent of the text, but doesn't have
(43:53):
that ethos if you will, thatthe drama attributes to it in terms of
its accuracy and its reliability, althoughit is approximately contemporary with the Alepo Quodex.
How to get the name of SassuKodak, you have the Elepocals based
Elepo of Lenagrad shouldn't have been labeledthe Syrian Kodaks or wherever it was first
(44:15):
written. Very good questions, Soyou're absolutely right, um Sobabies, in
devising a way of talking about thisfor marketing purposes, decided that it was
important to name this book Um thepreviously and if you look into scholarly literature
about um, you know Hebrew importantBible, important Hebrew Bibles. This manuscript
(44:37):
is actually referred to by its shelfmark in library of the great collector David
Salmons as it's referred to as Assumeten fifty three, and that's generally how
you will see it, you know, talked about in the literature. However,
as you can imagine, Sosume tenfifty three does not sell as well
(44:57):
as codecs as Soon. So asa result, there was a discussion in
the marketing department and the Judaica teamand we decided to call it Codex so
Soon. As I mentioned, itwas owned by this great bibliophile and collector
if uber manuscripts, David Soloman soSoon, and we thought that it would
be appropriate to name the book afterhim now because of his relationships. That
(45:20):
makes sense. Now he bought itat a very inexpensive price. Give us
the history, because now we're lookingat maybe thirty to forty million dollars purchase.
Bro who knows how much is goingto go for is going on orction
this week. But if I rememberhearing you correctly, he was originally purpose
for Bubkus for a couple of downs, right, Yes, that's a great
question. So David Toison was anincredible negotiator. When he was first offered
(45:47):
the book in nineteen twenty nine,he got he got a letter from an
associate of his named Aaron Frehman,who is a professor and librarian and book
dealer based in Frankfurt in Germany.And he receives this letter in March of
nineteen twenty nine, in which ournFreeman said that he had a client who
(46:07):
wanted to sell this very old TENA. He calls it probably one of the
oldest bibles that we have, andhe says that the asking price is six
hundred pounds. Now that's also,you know, not the same as the
estimate that we have on it now. But six hundred pounds back in nineteen
twenty nine, was that was moneyyou know that wasn't an insignificant price.
(46:28):
My research when we were looking intoall of this and writing up the catalog,
turned off that in nineteen twenty five, the average wage earner in Britain
would have made about two hundred andsixty pounds a year. So you have
to you have to think to yourself, that's two hundred pounds. It's probably
two and a half years salary foran average individual living in England at the
(46:51):
time, So that was money.But but as I mentioned before, David
Sisson was an excellent negotiator and andhe managed to get the price down to
three hundred and fifty pounds. Inthe course of his correspondence with our on
Freeman, he mentions that he lookedat the book and it's damaged. It
has he asked, he's going tohave to rebind it and restore it and
(47:13):
send it for conservation. So sothose were his note to feel well,
those were his planes that allowed himto make to bring down the price to
three hundred and fifty pounds. Butwith time, more and as more and
more people have looked at this bookand come to realize it's importance, its
(47:35):
value and prestige, has have onlyincreased. So the first time that it
was sold at public auction was nineteenseventy eight. Then it's sold for the
equivalent of about three hundred twenty thousanddollars. Eleven years later, in nineteen
eighty nine, it's sold for theequivalent of about three point one nine million
dollars, and now another thirty threeyears on approximately we're talking about in estment,
(47:57):
as you mentioned, of thirty tofifty million dollars. So let me
ask this this question. I knowwe have inflation today. Inflation is very
big, but it seems to gofrom three point five million dollars to thirty
forty fifty million dollars, which itcould fetch an auctions slightly beyond the inflation.
What makes the Codex at Soon worththirty forty fifty million dollars. Yeah,
(48:22):
so that's an excellent question. Also, I think that the thinking behind
this is that um Soties does abrisk trade in important books and manuscripts,
and they have a history of achievinghigh prices for UM for important historical documents.
One of the biggest prices that theyever get for anything, right,
(48:45):
this could be one of the biggestmoneys they'll get for anything at this so
sobby So's lots of stuff throughout theyear, the biggest, not the biggest.
This could be the highest grossing bookauction. That is true. I
believe there are plenty pieces of artthat's selling this range and even more expensive.
(49:06):
But in terms of books and manuscripts, this is actually the highest estimate
I'm told placed on any book ora manuscript put up for public auction.
But to your question before about wherethe prize comes from, so they try
to do their diligence, their duediligends, and look at similar sales of
(49:28):
important historical documents. So most recentlyin twenty twenty one, there was a
copy of the US Constitution which soldits set apiece for a record forty three
point two million dollars. And it'simportant to note that that was one of
two copies in private hands and oneof fifteen original copies of the Constitution in
(49:49):
existence. So part of the thinkingon the part of the team that came
up with the estimate is that youknow, when you're talking about something like
Codex as Soon, which is reallythe only book like it, certainly the
only book in private hands. Ifyou want to take into consideration the Level
Codex and lend Gund Codex. Thoseare owned by institutions, So the thinking
(50:15):
was that this should this should grossat least as much as the US Constitution,
if not more. And then thereare also some other less expensive books
but still important sales that were relevant, including it was known as Kodex Lyster,
which was a copy of Sorry,an original manuscript by Leonardo da Vinci,
(50:35):
purchased by Bill Gates in the ninetiesfor thirty point one million dollars.
Bill Gates going to be on thecox if he is, he hasn't told
me, but we're certainly willing tohave him register does the work. Sotoby
sells the pace thirty forty fifty milliondollars, Who gets the money? So
(50:59):
that's that's a good question too.Yeah, The way it generally works is
that an item of this importance isput up for auction, and we do
our marketing push and then comes today the auction, and there will be
some people getting in the room,probably some people getting online and on the
phone. I imagine most of theaction will be on the phone, And
(51:21):
when the gabble goes down, that'scalled the hammer price. So that's that's
the money that goes to the ownerof the property. In this case,
the owner of the current owner isa fellow named Jackie Saffra is a very
important collector of Hebrew manuscripts based inGeneva, and he is putting this item
up for auction. So the hammerprice goes to mister Saffra, and Sobebies
(51:45):
makes a commission on the sale.In this case it would be twelve percent
of the hammer price plus an additionalone percent storage fee if I'm not mistaken,
and then you have to tack onNew York sales tax if you want
to pick it up in New York, which I imagine you probably want to
avoid the attack on marketing feast too. Yeah, yeah, really, we're
(52:14):
serving with Schaul Seila Feller. He'sa consultant for Sothbies. We're looking at
the codecs as soon, which couldfetch up to fifty million dollars in auction
this week. We're the people ofthe book, So where's yours? Have
you ever wanted to write and publishyour own book? Are you concerned that
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(52:35):
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