Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer, those
are the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the
station it's staff, management or ownership.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Good morning, you'll find me out with Pete and the
Poet Gold. I'm Peter Lemer and I'm the Poet Gold,
and we're on the air this morning with Harvey Flight,
author of a book all about Poughkeepsie called a Main
Streets Main Frame. But before we get to Horvey in
whose book the second edition, which is coming out just now,
we're going to go right to the Poke Goal for
her weekly poem prayer incantation goal. Please let it roll.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Thank you, Peter. Well, since this morning we're speaking about Poughkeepsie,
I'm just going to use a small excerpt one of
the verses from my poem my Kipsie Pokeepsie. You know,
I miss just totally mistitled my poem here Pokepsie, Mykepsie
just turned it all around. Anyway, here we goes. My
experience in Poughkeepsie is part of a new history, not
one which is antiquated or relegated, but one which is
(00:55):
newly created and celebrated by the merchants and the vendors,
the painters and the sculptors, the singers and the dancers,
and by the poets and the people, the people, the
people here you puckoo ip e sing the read covert
Lodge by the little water place.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, I always liked that poem. But Harvey, when I
saw you head nodding and approval as Gold started the poem,
I was just wondering what you were thinking when at
that moment when Gold was reading the poem.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
I love that poem. I love it so much that
I added it to the second edition. Oh, the whole
poem is available with the grace of Powet Gold to
allow me to this an the appendix to the book.
But it also introduces the last chapter. The last chapter
(01:50):
is brings up the first edition, which the information was
to two thousand and five and to twenty and twenty five.
And so that poem to me, brought up the energy
that has happened to the city of Pickkeepsie.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Wow, between the poem and your feelings about it, that's
a fantastic commercial. If we were more entrepreneurial people, we
were people to buy the book just on the on
the spaces of that. But we're also so interested in
a deeper dive. We're in the book itself, and you
(02:34):
already mentioned it was first published in two thousand and nine.
You said that us correct, and then you updated it
and have it coming out now twenty twenty six. Yes,
you might want to. You have a worried about the
co writer on the original edition, Clyde Griffin, whose both
(02:55):
of you were colleagues and advansa college right.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
We were both. He is a social historian and primarily
eighteenth and nineteenth century, myself as a geographer primarily nineteenth
and twentieth century. So when we both retired, Clyde said
(03:21):
to me, said, Harvey, he said, why don't we put
all that information that we put together for the urban
Studies program, in which we would take students down to
the city of Poughkeepsie and walk on the streets and
take a look at what's happening on the streets, Because
we felt that theory is one thing, but actually getting
(03:44):
your feet on the ground is the way you understand
people and the social geography social history of a place.
And so he would look at a neighborhood and tell
the students all where the butchers were and the other stores,
(04:06):
and the immigrant folks who were there, and now I
would say to the students, so what do you see now?
And what you would see is parking lots, because so
much of Poughkeepsie on the lower Slope area was destroyed
by urban renewal and other things. So that got us
into trying to figure out what was this history of
(04:28):
the city of Poughkeepsie, And so we put it together
in that first edition and my task over the last
year or two has been to bring that up to date.
Why because and I have to mention that Clyde passed
on about five years ago, so it was left up
(04:50):
to me to put this back together and it's really
dedicated to his work as well.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
How did you come up as an author myself? How
did you come up with the title main street to Mainframes?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Well, we thought what are the primary ways of understanding
the city as an urban system for urban historians and
urban sociologists and so forth, and realized that the core
of a city is its main street. It's the gathering
(05:26):
place of people and as it comes and goes, of course,
but certainly in the thirties, forties, fifties and sixties, there
was the central place where people would gather shop. The
economy was all about that. But then comes IBM and
(05:48):
changes the city into a one company town where everything
was really related to IBM. The problem, however, was that
IBM was all outside the city boundaries, and so all
of that work and the those who came to work
(06:12):
for IBM began to create the suburbs, and that began became.
But that was the urban system, so we called it
main Street to main Frames and then the subtitle Landscape
and Social Change in Posie UH shows that the city
(06:33):
of cities, all cities, certainly Poepsie are organic uh. And
you know they are. They are organic. Let's put it
that way, in that they constantly change and grow and
decline and then they.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Hopefully reknew right and renew themselves. And just not not
to beat up on IBM at all, you know, but
IBM also was integral in separating the school system, you know,
removing those tax dollars out of the city of Poughkeepsie
by creating I forgot which school they created, the school sacking.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
We cover that certainly in the first edition, and it
is indeed correct. When the spack and schools system was
created by the Ibmers who were living in the Spack
and Kill area in the town of Boughkeepsie. And so
(07:32):
the students who are coming in these were young families
of IBM engineers and so forth and so forth. And
for reasons that we can certainly imagine, those families decided
(07:54):
to make their own school district. It was a battle
but the border but in the Department of Education in
New York in Albany finally caved in. They initially understood why,
but then they with other pressure, they finally caved in.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Harvey, with your vast knowledge, you also have manners that
have perhaps uh, disguised things we say for reasons we
can all imagine. I think what you might have been
referring to is the Poughkeepsie school district was predominantly black
and the IBM district or the Spacking district was white.
(08:38):
So it was a very traditional American issue of racism
that was going on. Is that what you were referring to,
because that's what I imagined.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
That is absolutely correct, and we I pick it up
in book very clearly, uh, and that it was not
the only racist issues in the city of Poughkeepsie either
in terms of internally, but but that particular one is
predominant in that it really showed a boundary between the
(09:16):
town of Poughkeepsie and the City of Poughkeepsie, which still
to this day has been a gulf that hasn't been
completely uh jumped over. You know, there are bridges now,
and I'm very happy about to see that, but for
(09:38):
all those many many years, for half century really and
the the problem so that continue. The other as I mentioned,
is also internal in terms of the way in which
(10:00):
urban renewal was carried out with the uh uh the
arterials splitting the country the community, and that can be also.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Seen right through the north side and the south side
and the economic differences. Once again, if you're if you're
tuning in now, you're tuning into finding out with Pete
and the poet Gold and I'm the poet Gold and
we're here having a discussion about uh main Street, the
main frames Harvey Flad the author's new book, co author
with Clyde Griffin as well. And so when we're talking
(10:38):
about you know, the north side and and and the
south side, that internal of separation that has taken place
as well in the city. The city is impacted by
that that division. Even though there are artistic ventures that
take place in the city to to bring unite the
(10:58):
residents of both sides to the city, such as a
porch Fest that takes place usually in August, bringing a
lot of the community members out.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
That is absolutely correct, and I cover that in this
second edition in which I suggest that really the the
creative community and the arts are is becoming or has become,
one way of mending those many breaches as well. It's
(11:31):
as you said, the porch fest is one example. There
are many other aspects the in terms of what's happening
in forty Cannon Art Gallery and other art galleries on
Main Street as well as around and so those kinds
(11:51):
of things are very much a part of it. The
the and I would say, however, you know, we're still
living with the problems that were created by the arterials,
the three arterials, the North South and the both East West,
(12:14):
as well as the nineteen thirties during the depression and
so forth, where redlining was a federal policy in which
therefore the mortgages and other things for families homes in
(12:38):
the North Side in particular were unavailable because they were
red lined out. And that you know so well, not
that one he knows the word rede hobby. Can you
explain that? Yes, redlining is when they there was say,
the federal government put together this is UH the how
(13:03):
h l o C the a department of for creating
UH which was created to UH assist in some ways
the ability of of of families during this depression period
(13:25):
to to get mortgages UH in for the home. But
in order to do that, what they did is they
sent uh UH they sent folks out around the country
to map to map UH cities with different colors for
(13:45):
different neighborhoods. And the red UH what color was used
for the least possible, the worst neighborhoods, as it were,
and how they find that was not only just the
look of the buildings themselves if they were not well
(14:09):
taken care of or something, but primarily but also by race.
So you actually have if this is a black neighborhood,
you don't want to offer mortgage good mortgages for.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
UH right right right to to to to non black
people and vice versa. If you wouldn't, you wouldn't offer
a mortgage to a person of color who might want
to move into a black neighborhood. And that and this
red lining is across the country, and it's still was
very very relevant even in the nineties, close to the
(14:49):
two thousands. I remember when we were uh purchasing, getting
getting our home, and trying to buy property to outside
of the state of New York. I won't say we're
but in any event, it took a lot for us
to push and get our home built where I wanted
to be built. Finally, I said, you know not, I
(15:10):
don't want to be crude to our listeners. But finally
I had to put it very bluntly. I said, if
I want to come out on my port nude, I
don't want to see someone next door to me. And
that's how I said it to the to the builders,
and so because they kept putting us in these communities,
and I said, I could stay New York and live
in Queens. I'm coming out here to the country because
I want to be in the country. But what I
(15:32):
found out later on in the suit that we that
I brought forth was was we were, in essence red lining.
They were taking all of the people from Philadelphia and
working class, and that included construction workers, you know, people
that they didn't feel deemed, you know, worthy of owning
property in these certain areas. They were putting them in
(15:52):
these mass communities together the blue collar worker, you know,
the blacks, the browns, the you know, you aim it,
this is where you want to go, and really had
to really had to push to say, no, I don't
want to live there. I can stay in New York City.
If that's the case, this is what I want, you know.
And so it's something that takes place, you know, all over.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So it's federal policy, of federal policy from the thirties,
you know, and then the arterial is being built in
the fifties. So federal policies have had results that in
twenty twenty six were still living with some of the
issues that they created.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
That is correct. That is correct.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And on the upside, you were saying, the arts community
has been very violent Poughkeepsie, and I think one of
the examples of that is right here in poet Gold
moved to Poughkeepsie about twenty years ago. But one of
the things that was determinus of of that was she's
an artist looking for place to live. Nessa Madelinguaitias artwork
(17:00):
on main streets and murals was something she saw as
that I want to be around this, Frank, I'm sorry,
that's right, Frank, so many bears out what you're saying.
Then you were also speaking to Uncle Mike before we
started taping about the Walkway over the Hudson.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yes, I mean the Walkway over the Hudson, which opened
in two thousand and nine, just after the first edition
was published, so it's not in the first edition. So
I make that a very important part from the very
beginning of the second edition and into the conclusion. Because
(17:42):
it now is as a state park. It brings hundreds
of thousands of visitors to the city of Poughkeepsie, and
it is a it is well known, nationally, well known.
It's listed on many of the stories about urban renewal
(18:10):
and development around the country. So people come here definitely
from all over the country and indeed internationally to walk
on the longest structure across the river whatever. I can't
remember the exact title what they always use, but it
(18:32):
is wonderful and so how do you look at it?
I look at it both economically and as well as
socially and economically, as I just mentioned that it's a
major focus for tourism, and as if as part of
the creative and cultural growth of the city, but also
(18:58):
as a social phenomenon because it brings people all together,
and so we have the history of that and just
it's it's a wonderful you know, addition to and a
major part of what the city is all about.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And I think that the challenge with the walkway and
the river is getting folks from the walkway to main
Street that is correct, you know, to Main Street.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
That's right. And we've had that problem ever since the
beginning of the trails, I mean the trails through Dutchess
County and including the walkway trail that are so important.
How do you get someone off of that to main Street?
(19:51):
And part of the problem is is that they have
to cross one of the arterials, and that's one of
the problems. It's a major problem, actually, And to create
the kind of passage way that you want to encourage
(20:11):
folks to come to the restaurants which exist right right
right already.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Because you get the impression that you know, when you
get there, that the city stops at that place and
you're sort of looking at the top of the hills,
sort of looking over going is there anything over there?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You know?
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Once I cross this sort of highway kind of thing.
If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Finding Out
with Pete and the poet Gold. I'm Peter Leonard and
I'm the poet Gold, and we're here having a wonderful
conversation with author Harvey k Flad. The new book out,
second edition of the book, Main Street to Mainframes, And you.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Know, Harvey, we want to encourage people to buy and
read this book, but we also want to have people
get a perspective on you. You've mentioned that you're a geographer,
and most people are, certainly people my age have a
notion of geography is about the mountains and the rivers,
(21:02):
and it's actually much wider discipline than that. Can you
talk about your your life as a geographer and how
that plays a part in the book.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
That's good. You're right about the general opinion about what
geography geography is, and indeed I do a fair amount
of environmental preservation and conservation issues as well in my work,
but it's I'm also I'm primarily a social and cultural geographer.
That is to say, I'm interested in how landscape itself
(21:37):
is a function of of of the social environment, and
one of those aspects, which is is the use of
parks for example, and I mentioned this a fair amount,
(21:58):
especially in the current addition, and because after COVID or
during COVID, I should say, and since the parks are
very important in Pickepsie for bringing people out and also
recognizing that this is a community as well, So that
(22:20):
kind of thing. My own particular efforts have been with
respect to Springside, which is the Matthew Vassar's former estate
and is a National Historic Landmark. Springside landscape is very
important for landscape architecture, So.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I do a lot of That's Academy Street, yes, by
the nine right, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
And that's I like to see people using that as well,
and learning about Andrew Jackson Downing and his role as well.
So history, I'm a historical geographer obviously because of the
book you can see. And so landscapes, urban landscapes, rural landscapes,
(23:11):
suburban whatever, I'm interested in how they all work along
with the environment. And so you mentioned Hudson River. Of
course that's a key to understanding the city of Poughkeepsie
as well, and both in terms of its social effects,
for example, the regatta and rowing and so I use
(23:34):
that along with the along with the walkway over the Hudson,
to make it clear that here in the twenty first century,
the Hudson River is as much a part and of
the city of Poughkeepsie as it was back in the
(23:55):
eighteenth century.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Now. Also, you know, probably twenty five years ago, being
in you we had a group of students and I
was taking along on one of your tours at Poughkeepsie
and being in College Hill, Paul, and you're referring to
the drum Ones and the first time I ever heard
that word. And obviously drum ones the hills, you know,
(24:19):
it's like bouncy there, But I remember I would never
describe it that way, you know. But that's where these geography,
yeah comes in absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And you know the Drumlins that you can see from
College Hill and include a Dutchess Community College is on
top of one, and that's why we have one of
its buildings called Drummlin Hall.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the term Drumlin.
So can you explain to me what our listeners what
a Drummlin is.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It's a it's a a typography topographic figure.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Not everyone goes for topography, don't make it, okay, it's
a hill, all right.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
It's a hill that is created by a retreating glacier.
And as the glacier which had come down a thousand
years ago, is that the glaciers then retreated and as
they they left, if there was a little a rock
outcrop or something that was there, they would come back
(25:32):
over that and leave dirt and soil and gravel and
so forth on on that.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
And and it looks very They looked like a a
a teaspoon, like a teaspoon.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
So you've got it comes up and over and then
and then the glacier can continue continue left behind. And
so we are in what's called a field.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Of the field of drumlins and also hobby. It sounds
like a way to recast your book from from drum
ones to main frames. Drumbe's a thousand year history of Poughkeepsie.
And I'm sure Clyde Griffeth will go for that. Just
(26:29):
give us a word how you and Clyde got along,
because you know, I actually did team teaching with you
and Clyde separately over Atvasa, and so I don't know
you both very well, but you have different personalities and
different styles. Maybe you could just give us a personal
insight into how working with him was.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
That's a very nice and interesting question because Clyde Knie, Yes,
you're right, we have different styles, and some of it
you can see in the book. But as a matter
of fact, how we worked on the book was we
really integrated our our research together. In each chapter one
(27:11):
might do be a little more formal, the other a
little less formal. And but we were trying to make
it a as if we were uh talking together and
we had uh you know, we each in our own studio,
(27:31):
you know, with our own computers. But we would go
back and forth, back and forth on this and uh,
you know, uh we are we were are were certainly
different personalities as well. You know, uh Clyde and his
wife Sally and their kids, they were longtime members of
(27:55):
Vassar College. They lived in a uh at college ground
right there house whereas Mary, myself and our kids moved
to the city of Poughkeepsie. We brought up our kids
and they went Topsie High School. So we are different personalities.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
And Harvey was a big was a master for booming
hello and of creating crowd Where's you socially quieter than
than Clyde was right. I'm telling you I'm the authority
on that one. But to have both styles instegrated in
the book is good. And both you were naturally intellectually
(28:35):
both naturally intodisciplinary. In other words, you were comfortable going
outside of your own fields.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
We were definitely that, in fact, as co founders not
only of the Urban Studies Program but also the American
Studies Program, which was at the beginning of multi disciplinary
teaching at Vasser College.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
And a place was Vaster College really excelled and nationally
was known as a place where instant disciplinary work was
really being pioneered. And you wouldn't call you behind that,
so we could call We could even save retitle your
book from drum Ones, the main Friends and the disciplinary
(29:16):
History of the Gipsy. We want to sell.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Those books absolutely so you So you have the book book,
the book event and signing on Thursday, June eleventh at
Gallery forty forty Canistry but keeps in New York and
it starts to seven pm, right, And where else can
people get the book?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
I can get it at three Arts, which is the
local indie bookstore on College Avenue. And Raymond, and also
Barnes and Noble will have copies, and.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I see they can go to Harvey Fladd dot WordPress
dot com. Harvey Fladd dot WordPress dot com.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Get that book in your house and read it, and
you can read it in the sections. You can read
it entirely what you want with it, but get Harvey
flies his new book Main Street to Mainframes and Harvey
thanks a million for being with us.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Thank you, Harvey, and thank you to our listeners for
listening to Finding Out with Pete the Poe of Gold
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer, those
are the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the
station it's staff, management or ownership.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Good morning, you'll find me out with Pete and the
Poet Gold. I'm Peter Lemer and I'm the Poet Gold,
and we're on the air this morning with Harvey Flight,
author of a book all about Poughkeepsie called a Main
Streets Main Frame. But before we get to Horvey in
whose book the second edition, which is coming out just now,
we're going to go right to the Poke Goal for
her weekly poem prayer incantation goal. Please let it roll.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Thank you, Peter. Well, since this morning we're speaking about Poughkeepsie,
I'm just going to use a small excerpt one of
the verses from my poem my Kipsie Pokeepsie. You know,
I miss just totally mistitled my poem here Pokepsie, Mykepsie
just turned it all around. Anyway, here we goes. My
experience in Poughkeepsie is part of a new history, not
one which is antiquated or relegated, but one which is
(00:55):
newly created and celebrated by the merchants and the vendors,
the painters and the sculptors, the singers and the dancers,
and by the poets and the people, the people, the
people here you puckoo ip e sing the read covert
Lodge by the little water place.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, I always liked that poem. But Harvey, when I
saw you head nodding and approval as Gold started the poem,
I was just wondering what you were thinking when at
that moment when Gold was reading the poem.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
I love that poem. I love it so much that
I added it to the second edition. Oh, the whole
poem is available with the grace of Powet Gold to
allow me to this an the appendix to the book.
But it also introduces the last chapter. The last chapter
(01:50):
is brings up the first edition, which the information was
to two thousand and five and to twenty and twenty five.
And so that poem to me, brought up the energy
that has happened to the city of Pickkeepsie.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Wow, between the poem and your feelings about it, that's
a fantastic commercial. If we were more entrepreneurial people, we
were people to buy the book just on the on
the spaces of that. But we're also so interested in
a deeper dive. We're in the book itself, and you
(02:34):
already mentioned it was first published in two thousand and nine.
You said that us correct, and then you updated it
and have it coming out now twenty twenty six. Yes,
you might want to. You have a worried about the
co writer on the original edition, Clyde Griffin, whose both
(02:55):
of you were colleagues and advansa college right.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
We were both. He is a social historian and primarily
eighteenth and nineteenth century, myself as a geographer primarily nineteenth
and twentieth century. So when we both retired, Clyde said
(03:21):
to me, said, Harvey, he said, why don't we put
all that information that we put together for the urban
Studies program, in which we would take students down to
the city of Poughkeepsie and walk on the streets and
take a look at what's happening on the streets, Because
we felt that theory is one thing, but actually getting
(03:44):
your feet on the ground is the way you understand
people and the social geography social history of a place.
And so he would look at a neighborhood and tell
the students all where the butchers were and the other stores,
(04:06):
and the immigrant folks who were there, and now I
would say to the students, so what do you see now?
And what you would see is parking lots, because so
much of Poughkeepsie on the lower Slope area was destroyed
by urban renewal and other things. So that got us
into trying to figure out what was this history of
(04:28):
the city of Poughkeepsie, And so we put it together
in that first edition and my task over the last
year or two has been to bring that up to date.
Why because and I have to mention that Clyde passed
on about five years ago, so it was left up
(04:50):
to me to put this back together and it's really
dedicated to his work as well.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
How did you come up as an author myself? How
did you come up with the title main street to Mainframes?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Well, we thought what are the primary ways of understanding
the city as an urban system for urban historians and
urban sociologists and so forth, and realized that the core
of a city is its main street. It's the gathering
(05:26):
place of people and as it comes and goes, of course,
but certainly in the thirties, forties, fifties and sixties, there
was the central place where people would gather shop. The
economy was all about that. But then comes IBM and
(05:48):
changes the city into a one company town where everything
was really related to IBM. The problem, however, was that
IBM was all outside the city boundaries, and so all
of that work and the those who came to work
(06:12):
for IBM began to create the suburbs, and that began became.
But that was the urban system, so we called it
main Street to main Frames and then the subtitle Landscape
and Social Change in Posie UH shows that the city
(06:33):
of cities, all cities, certainly Poepsie are organic uh. And
you know they are. They are organic. Let's put it
that way, in that they constantly change and grow and
decline and then they.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Hopefully reknew right and renew themselves. And just not not
to beat up on IBM at all, you know, but
IBM also was integral in separating the school system, you know,
removing those tax dollars out of the city of Poughkeepsie
by creating I forgot which school they created, the school sacking.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
We cover that certainly in the first edition, and it
is indeed correct. When the spack and schools system was
created by the Ibmers who were living in the Spack
and Kill area in the town of Boughkeepsie. And so
(07:32):
the students who are coming in these were young families
of IBM engineers and so forth and so forth. And
for reasons that we can certainly imagine, those families decided
(07:54):
to make their own school district. It was a battle
but the border but in the Department of Education in
New York in Albany finally caved in. They initially understood why,
but then they with other pressure, they finally caved in.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Harvey, with your vast knowledge, you also have manners that
have perhaps uh, disguised things we say for reasons we
can all imagine. I think what you might have been
referring to is the Poughkeepsie school district was predominantly black
and the IBM district or the Spacking district was white.
(08:38):
So it was a very traditional American issue of racism
that was going on. Is that what you were referring to,
because that's what I imagined.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
That is absolutely correct, and we I pick it up
in book very clearly, uh, and that it was not
the only racist issues in the city of Poughkeepsie either
in terms of internally, but but that particular one is
predominant in that it really showed a boundary between the
(09:16):
town of Poughkeepsie and the City of Poughkeepsie, which still
to this day has been a gulf that hasn't been
completely uh jumped over. You know, there are bridges now,
and I'm very happy about to see that, but for
(09:38):
all those many many years, for half century really and
the the problem so that continue. The other as I mentioned,
is also internal in terms of the way in which
(10:00):
urban renewal was carried out with the uh uh the
arterials splitting the country the community, and that can be also.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Seen right through the north side and the south side
and the economic differences. Once again, if you're if you're
tuning in now, you're tuning into finding out with Pete
and the poet Gold and I'm the poet Gold and
we're here having a discussion about uh main Street, the
main frames Harvey Flad the author's new book, co author
with Clyde Griffin as well. And so when we're talking
(10:38):
about you know, the north side and and and the
south side, that internal of separation that has taken place
as well in the city. The city is impacted by
that that division. Even though there are artistic ventures that
take place in the city to to bring unite the
(10:58):
residents of both sides to the city, such as a
porch Fest that takes place usually in August, bringing a
lot of the community members out.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
That is absolutely correct, and I cover that in this
second edition in which I suggest that really the the
creative community and the arts are is becoming or has become,
one way of mending those many breaches as well. It's
(11:31):
as you said, the porch fest is one example. There
are many other aspects the in terms of what's happening
in forty Cannon Art Gallery and other art galleries on
Main Street as well as around and so those kinds
(11:51):
of things are very much a part of it. The
the and I would say, however, you know, we're still
living with the problems that were created by the arterials,
the three arterials, the North South and the both East West,
(12:14):
as well as the nineteen thirties during the depression and
so forth, where redlining was a federal policy in which
therefore the mortgages and other things for families homes in
(12:38):
the North Side in particular were unavailable because they were
red lined out. And that you know so well, not
that one he knows the word rede hobby. Can you
explain that? Yes, redlining is when they there was say,
the federal government put together this is UH the how
(13:03):
h l o C the a department of for creating
UH which was created to UH assist in some ways
the ability of of of families during this depression period
(13:25):
to to get mortgages UH in for the home. But
in order to do that, what they did is they
sent uh UH they sent folks out around the country
to map to map UH cities with different colors for
(13:45):
different neighborhoods. And the red UH what color was used
for the least possible, the worst neighborhoods, as it were,
and how they find that was not only just the
look of the buildings themselves if they were not well
(14:09):
taken care of or something, but primarily but also by race.
So you actually have if this is a black neighborhood,
you don't want to offer mortgage good mortgages for.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
UH right right right to to to to non black
people and vice versa. If you wouldn't, you wouldn't offer
a mortgage to a person of color who might want
to move into a black neighborhood. And that and this
red lining is across the country, and it's still was
very very relevant even in the nineties, close to the
(14:49):
two thousands. I remember when we were uh purchasing, getting
getting our home, and trying to buy property to outside
of the state of New York. I won't say we're
but in any event, it took a lot for us
to push and get our home built where I wanted
to be built. Finally, I said, you know not, I
(15:10):
don't want to be crude to our listeners. But finally
I had to put it very bluntly. I said, if
I want to come out on my port nude, I
don't want to see someone next door to me. And
that's how I said it to the to the builders,
and so because they kept putting us in these communities,
and I said, I could stay New York and live
in Queens. I'm coming out here to the country because
I want to be in the country. But what I
(15:32):
found out later on in the suit that we that
I brought forth was was we were, in essence red lining.
They were taking all of the people from Philadelphia and
working class, and that included construction workers, you know, people
that they didn't feel deemed, you know, worthy of owning
property in these certain areas. They were putting them in
(15:52):
these mass communities together the blue collar worker, you know,
the blacks, the browns, the you know, you aim it,
this is where you want to go, and really had
to really had to push to say, no, I don't
want to live there. I can stay in New York City.
If that's the case, this is what I want, you know.
And so it's something that takes place, you know, all over.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So it's federal policy, of federal policy from the thirties,
you know, and then the arterial is being built in
the fifties. So federal policies have had results that in
twenty twenty six were still living with some of the
issues that they created.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
That is correct. That is correct.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And on the upside, you were saying, the arts community
has been very violent Poughkeepsie, and I think one of
the examples of that is right here in poet Gold
moved to Poughkeepsie about twenty years ago. But one of
the things that was determinus of of that was she's
an artist looking for place to live. Nessa Madelinguaitias artwork
(17:00):
on main streets and murals was something she saw as
that I want to be around this, Frank, I'm sorry,
that's right, Frank, so many bears out what you're saying.
Then you were also speaking to Uncle Mike before we
started taping about the Walkway over the Hudson.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yes, I mean the Walkway over the Hudson, which opened
in two thousand and nine, just after the first edition
was published, so it's not in the first edition. So
I make that a very important part from the very
beginning of the second edition and into the conclusion. Because
(17:42):
it now is as a state park. It brings hundreds
of thousands of visitors to the city of Poughkeepsie, and
it is a it is well known, nationally, well known.
It's listed on many of the stories about urban renewal
(18:10):
and development around the country. So people come here definitely
from all over the country and indeed internationally to walk
on the longest structure across the river whatever. I can't
remember the exact title what they always use, but it
(18:32):
is wonderful and so how do you look at it?
I look at it both economically and as well as
socially and economically, as I just mentioned that it's a
major focus for tourism, and as if as part of
the creative and cultural growth of the city, but also
(18:58):
as a social phenomenon because it brings people all together,
and so we have the history of that and just
it's it's a wonderful you know, addition to and a
major part of what the city is all about.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And I think that the challenge with the walkway and
the river is getting folks from the walkway to main
Street that is correct, you know, to Main Street.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
That's right. And we've had that problem ever since the
beginning of the trails, I mean the trails through Dutchess
County and including the walkway trail that are so important.
How do you get someone off of that to main Street?
(19:51):
And part of the problem is is that they have
to cross one of the arterials, and that's one of
the problems. It's a major problem, actually, And to create
the kind of passage way that you want to encourage
(20:11):
folks to come to the restaurants which exist right right
right already.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Because you get the impression that you know, when you
get there, that the city stops at that place and
you're sort of looking at the top of the hills,
sort of looking over going is there anything over there?
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You know?
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Once I cross this sort of highway kind of thing.
If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Finding Out
with Pete and the poet Gold. I'm Peter Leonard and
I'm the poet Gold, and we're here having a wonderful
conversation with author Harvey k Flad. The new book out,
second edition of the book, Main Street to Mainframes, And you.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Know, Harvey, we want to encourage people to buy and
read this book, but we also want to have people
get a perspective on you. You've mentioned that you're a geographer,
and most people are, certainly people my age have a
notion of geography is about the mountains and the rivers,
(21:02):
and it's actually much wider discipline than that. Can you
talk about your your life as a geographer and how
that plays a part in the book.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
That's good. You're right about the general opinion about what
geography geography is, and indeed I do a fair amount
of environmental preservation and conservation issues as well in my work,
but it's I'm also I'm primarily a social and cultural geographer.
That is to say, I'm interested in how landscape itself
(21:37):
is a function of of of the social environment, and
one of those aspects, which is is the use of
parks for example, and I mentioned this a fair amount,
(21:58):
especially in the current addition, and because after COVID or
during COVID, I should say, and since the parks are
very important in Pickepsie for bringing people out and also
recognizing that this is a community as well, So that
(22:20):
kind of thing. My own particular efforts have been with
respect to Springside, which is the Matthew Vassar's former estate
and is a National Historic Landmark. Springside landscape is very
important for landscape architecture, So.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I do a lot of That's Academy Street, yes, by
the nine right, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
And that's I like to see people using that as well,
and learning about Andrew Jackson Downing and his role as well.
So history, I'm a historical geographer obviously because of the
book you can see. And so landscapes, urban landscapes, rural landscapes,
(23:11):
suburban whatever, I'm interested in how they all work along
with the environment. And so you mentioned Hudson River. Of
course that's a key to understanding the city of Poughkeepsie
as well, and both in terms of its social effects,
for example, the regatta and rowing and so I use
(23:34):
that along with the along with the walkway over the Hudson,
to make it clear that here in the twenty first century,
the Hudson River is as much a part and of
the city of Poughkeepsie as it was back in the
(23:55):
eighteenth century.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Now. Also, you know, probably twenty five years ago, being
in you we had a group of students and I
was taking along on one of your tours at Poughkeepsie
and being in College Hill, Paul, and you're referring to
the drum Ones and the first time I ever heard
that word. And obviously drum ones the hills, you know,
(24:19):
it's like bouncy there, But I remember I would never
describe it that way, you know. But that's where these geography,
yeah comes in absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And you know the Drumlins that you can see from
College Hill and include a Dutchess Community College is on
top of one, and that's why we have one of
its buildings called Drummlin Hall.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the term Drumlin.
So can you explain to me what our listeners what
a Drummlin is.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
It's a it's a a typography topographic figure.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Not everyone goes for topography, don't make it, okay, it's
a hill, all right.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
It's a hill that is created by a retreating glacier.
And as the glacier which had come down a thousand
years ago, is that the glaciers then retreated and as
they they left, if there was a little a rock
outcrop or something that was there, they would come back
(25:32):
over that and leave dirt and soil and gravel and
so forth on on that.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
And and it looks very They looked like a a
a teaspoon, like a teaspoon.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
So you've got it comes up and over and then
and then the glacier can continue continue left behind. And
so we are in what's called a field.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Of the field of drumlins and also hobby. It sounds
like a way to recast your book from from drum
ones to main frames. Drumbe's a thousand year history of Poughkeepsie.
And I'm sure Clyde Griffeth will go for that. Just
(26:29):
give us a word how you and Clyde got along,
because you know, I actually did team teaching with you
and Clyde separately over Atvasa, and so I don't know
you both very well, but you have different personalities and
different styles. Maybe you could just give us a personal
insight into how working with him was.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
That's a very nice and interesting question because Clyde Knie, Yes,
you're right, we have different styles, and some of it
you can see in the book. But as a matter
of fact, how we worked on the book was we
really integrated our our research together. In each chapter one
(27:11):
might do be a little more formal, the other a
little less formal. And but we were trying to make
it a as if we were uh talking together and
we had uh you know, we each in our own studio,
(27:31):
you know, with our own computers. But we would go
back and forth, back and forth on this and uh,
you know, uh we are we were are were certainly
different personalities as well. You know, uh Clyde and his
wife Sally and their kids, they were longtime members of
(27:55):
Vassar College. They lived in a uh at college ground
right there house whereas Mary, myself and our kids moved
to the city of Poughkeepsie. We brought up our kids
and they went Topsie High School. So we are different personalities.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
And Harvey was a big was a master for booming
hello and of creating crowd Where's you socially quieter than
than Clyde was right. I'm telling you I'm the authority
on that one. But to have both styles instegrated in
the book is good. And both you were naturally intellectually
(28:35):
both naturally intodisciplinary. In other words, you were comfortable going
outside of your own fields.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
We were definitely that, in fact, as co founders not
only of the Urban Studies Program but also the American
Studies Program, which was at the beginning of multi disciplinary
teaching at Vasser College.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
And a place was Vaster College really excelled and nationally
was known as a place where instant disciplinary work was
really being pioneered. And you wouldn't call you behind that,
so we could call We could even save retitle your
book from drum Ones, the main Friends and the disciplinary
(29:16):
History of the Gipsy. We want to sell.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Those books absolutely so you So you have the book book,
the book event and signing on Thursday, June eleventh at
Gallery forty forty Canistry but keeps in New York and
it starts to seven pm, right, And where else can
people get the book?
Speaker 1 (29:33):
I can get it at three Arts, which is the
local indie bookstore on College Avenue. And Raymond, and also
Barnes and Noble will have copies, and.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I see they can go to Harvey Fladd dot WordPress
dot com. Harvey Fladd dot WordPress dot com.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Get that book in your house and read it, and
you can read it in the sections. You can read
it entirely what you want with it, but get Harvey
flies his new book Main Street to Mainframes and Harvey
thanks a million for being with us.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Thank you, Harvey, and thank you to our listeners for
listening to Finding Out with Pete the Poe of Gold
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