Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer, those
are the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the station.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's staff, management or ownership.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
On good Morning, you'll find me out with Pete and the
Poelic Gold.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Peter Leon and I'm the poet Gold.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
On the ed with Horvey Fla, the author of From
Main Streets to Main Frames, a book about Poughkeepsie. And
before we get to Horvey, we're going to go right
to the poet Gold for a weekly poem prayer incantation.
Gol please let it roll.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
I'm going to read another excerpt from Poekeepsie, My Kipsie,
You puckuo Ippy sing the read Covert Lodge by the
Little Water Place, Native American poe Keepsie, My Kipsie. Not
quite the urban jungle I grew up in. But you
have sidewalks and I like that. I was not born
bred here, did not go to your schools here, rip
(00:49):
roar through your streets here, or play in your yards here.
My experience in Pockkeepsie may be different from yours here.
It's having a perfectly scrambled egg at Alex's Dina that's
important to me. I enjoy my food here. It's like
being a caterpillar morphing into a butterfly and realizing you
have wings to fly. Fly fly here.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
And Gold is reading from her poem which is actually
included in Harvey's book, From Main Street to Mainframes, and
I just want to give people the genesis of this show.
We finished taping a show on this book, but we
couldn't stop talking about it after we got off the air.
(01:31):
Uncle Mike was giving such passionate intensity that we decided
that four of us were joining to a show. So
Uncle Michae will be on the show today with us too.
But this is because we can't shut up.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
First of all, I am so happy you wrote both
of these books, because as we were talking, I think
we lost a couple generations through the school system, and
whatever you want to blame it on, I don't really
care what we did. COVID didn't help, And this book.
If Poughkeepsie is going to come back, it's going to
be the young people today that are going to have
to bring it back. And if they don't understand the history,
(02:06):
they're going to make the same mistakes. And you're pretty
clear at what how it evolved and why it evolved,
and I think it's just fantastic. I'm curious to read
the book and understand more because a lot of us
have hopes to do business here and Poughkeepsie. At some point.
You can't do it right now, but it's moving in
that direction, and I think this book is going to
help it move even further along in that direction.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
And you know the people who might not have heard
the first show. Professor Flier was very unclear about the
influence of the arts and the recovery of Poughkeepsie, focusing
on the walkway over the Hudson. He also spoke about
a lot at the geography, the physical and social geography
of Poughkeepsie, and what we wanted to do is go
(02:53):
further into it because of Uncle Mike's pointed about Poughkeepsie
the result being having adverse effects from federal policy, whether
it was in the thirties with urban renewal or the
fifties with the cereals being built. But one of the
things Harvey is I'd be surprised if I'm wrong on this,
(03:14):
but I need confirmation. Pickkeepsie is, besides being an interesting
book about Poughkeepsie. This is an interesting American book because
Pickkeepsie is not alone in having federal policy adversely effects cities.
Am I right on that that is absolutely correct? And
as a matter of fact, when Clyde Griffin, my co author,
(03:35):
and myself thought about doing this book, one of the
first things that came to our mind was the fact
that the books and research that have been written about
those problems urban renewal, for example, are all about big
cities Boston, Baltimore, New York, and so forth. But all
(03:58):
of the problems that they saw in terms of housing
and so forth, are available to understand to look at
research right here in the city of Poughkeepsie, a small city.
So it's a book for about small urban systems that
reflect also what's going on nationwide in much larger systems.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
What is the population of Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
It's thirty five thousand.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Thirty five thousand, forty thousand.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
You will see in the appendix we have the demographics
from nineteen hundred all the way, and you will see
that when when Poughkeepsie reached its height was during the
IBM period in nineteen fifties, and so with forty thousand
(04:52):
at that point. We went down from that and between
nineteen and then the twenty twenty Senses shows that we
are creeping back up, not only creeping.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Only creeping, oh and believing we're not creeps, we are
merely creeping. But one of the things that we thought
after the show, we will have such strong feelings about
Poughkeepsie that to have a sense of getting a personal
perspective on how we wound up in Poughkeepsie and what
(05:30):
I would commitments have been would be sort of another
view besides the book. It would take a more personal perspective.
So Harby, what we selt with you, what brought you
to Poughkeepsie, what kept you in Poughkeepsie, and what made
you interested in it?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
What brought my wife and myself and our growing family
to Poughkeepsie was in nineteen seventy two when I uh
was hired at Vassar College to teach geography and uh
so we began to live in in a Vassar apartment
(06:13):
for the first seven years or so, and then we
were looking for a house UH and UH what we
were able to find in the city of Poughkeepsie, something
that we could afford, you know, you've heard the term
white elephant. Well we got one of those and spent
the next couple of years kind of patching it back together.
(06:37):
But it was a wonderful, beautiful house on Academy Street,
one of the big old Victorians in the historic district. That,
of course, was part of what also established roots for
us in the city of Poughkeepsie was the historic nature
(06:59):
the and getting into the history of the city of Poughkeepsie.
The other was a social very definitely a social reason
because our kids were growing up initially, as I say,
in the town of Poughkeepsie a passor college and we
have a interracial family, and so our children found it
(07:22):
very difficult to be in the Arlington school district at
that time, and we wanted to go into a school
district that was multi ethnic, and that's what we found.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
So when you started talking about your kids found it's
difficulty in all and your voice lowered and it seems
to still have an echo of pain to your voice.
And moving to a more multi racial place like Pikeepsie
was a benefit for you, Is that right?
Speaker 1 (07:56):
That is absolutely correct. It was a benefit to our
children run as well as I mean they could they
were not under any feelings of exclusion. They were included
in Pickkeepsie.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
So it's fascinating. In the first episode of the interview,
you talked about IBM creating this back and Kill school
district for that very reason because they wanted their own
inclusive community. And it's fascinating to me when you look
at Poughkeepsie today that still exists today, even though when
you go through Poughkeepsie there's some beautiful sections of Poughkeepsie
(08:37):
with some beautiful homes that have been restored and seem
like it would be an absolute delight to live in.
And then you drive a couple of blocks and I
hate to say, but you're in the middle of hell
and that still exists here. Maybe not intentional, like you know,
you said IBM did that intentionally, and I believe they did.
It's not intentional, but it's it's it's lasted all these years.
You're talking fifty years later, that divide in the city
(09:00):
and the town still exist here, and it's kind of
it's interesting. I'd like to know your perspective why it
still exists. How is that never overcome?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Well, some of it is just structural in American life.
Racism continues to exist, but that's very subtle and it's
probably mostly economic. And it was certainly part of that
(09:29):
back then because when IBM was I came to Poughkeepsie,
there was and they came who they were hiring were
very important engineers coming and they were getting good salaries
and so forth, and they were young families too, But
there was no housing in the city of City of Pickipsie,
(09:52):
old housing, and so in that way, it was not
just the social issue, was very definitely an economic issue
is to find a decent, decent housing and so what
they so spacking Kill was built by Tom Watson Senior
(10:14):
to look for good, good new new housing for his
his emerging growing business.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
Yeah, well I became in this from what you're saying.
It became a necessity to attract these top engineers. You
had to give them a reason to come here, not
for just to work for you know, they don't work
twenty four hours a day. They have to have a
you know, private life, and they wanted to have great
homes and great schools for the children. Yes, because there
was other parts of the country that were probably competing
(10:47):
with them. And see your point, But I'm just fascinated today,
when you ride around Poughkeepsie, you can still go through
communities where you're like this, and it's an awful thing
to say, but you almost say, this can't be Poughkeepsie.
These houses are beautiful, look at these canmmunities. But then
you get a dose reality really quickly when you go
down the street a little ways and you're back in
the area that hasn't been upgraded. Although I have to
(11:09):
tell you there's a lot of building going on in Poughkeepsie.
Even in the areas that weren't great. People are taking
advantage economically, buying them at a low price and fixing
them up. And it's it's a fascinating to me. On
these blocks, once one house goes through that each house
next to it, it seems to spread. It seems, you know,
you see one house on the block all of a
sudden get fixed up, and then you go back six
(11:31):
or eight months later and there's three or four houses
on that block and it seems to be And that's
a good sign that it's working that way. But it's
just fascinating to me how it just it still has
that same divide. And if we we're gonna turn this
into the Poughkeepsie that I think all of us want.
We've got to get rid of that divide.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Right, And I'm going to come back to that. Uncle
Mike has some thoughts on that. Once again, if you're
just tuning in, you're listening to Finding Out with Pete
and the poet Gold and I'm the poet Gold and
we're having a wonderful conversation with Arthur Harvey Flatt on
this new book, second edition. I should say main Street
to Mainframes here with Uncle Mike and Peter and Harvey.
So to your point of how does the divide still
(12:11):
exist today? You know, it's never been dismantled. You know
there were things that were done, I believe intentionally, whether
they were for economic growth or whatever. Exclusivity, racial exclusivity, Uh,
it was a huge historically a part of it. You know,
didn't want necessarily the mingling of a multicultural environment. So
(12:34):
so you build a spack and Hill school district and
you pull out, pull out the white children, and you
put them in a certain environment and you leave all
the black and brown kids in another in another space.
It's sometimes difficult to recover from that if if you're
not conscious that you're part of the issue, you know,
out of out of a necessity, out of wanting food
(12:54):
on your plate, out of I want a good home,
you know, and so but you you can tribut to
that just in that cycle. And it's jarring to become
aware of it because now you're part of the construct.
You know, You're part of the system, and you just
can't wake up in the morning and go, I'm going
to give up my house and I'm going.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
To give up this good job, and I'm going to
because this is all wrong, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
But but I think that there, once you become aware
of it, then I think we have a responsibility to
then begin to dismantle it in a way so that
that divide there's an equal sort of playing field for everyone.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
You know, I completely agree with you one, and I'm
going to be the eight hundred pound gerilla in the room.
The government we have today needs to be dismantled because
they are the ones that are keeping these rules and
enforcing the economic it's that's what's happening. We've gotten away
from having representative from the community in the state capitol
(13:56):
and in Washington. They're not representing the people anymore. And
it's a broad statement but there's a lot of them
that aren't representing people. And to your point, that's why
this continues to exist, because they're holding those rules and
those policies in place and we can't seem to replace
them in the seats and all been here down in Washington,
(14:17):
and you know, I mean, and.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
They're putting things in place to you know, sometimes I
used to say, well, we won't have a vote, And
what I mean by that is not literally that we
won't have a vote. That if there are certain things
put in place, like jerrymandering and things of that nature, redistricting,
if there's certain things that are put in place to
prevent representation, it's it's like not having a vote.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
It's all about control, right and they've got control right
now and they don't want to give it up and
we're the ones being hurt. And it always fascinates me
when you come to voting. We have an opportunity to
vote these people out. Election after election after election, twenty
five percent of the voter show up to vote, and
then the seventy five percent plain about what's going on.
It's not a hard it's not a not a real
(15:03):
difficult equation. You have the ability and the people if
they got honest, you know, there should be term limits,
there should be a lot of things in place. And
the people that need to vote that in are never
going to vote it in because that's their that's their
security right, and that's their way of maintaining control.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Absolutely absolutely, And you can see how Main.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Streets and main frames of book by Harvey Flatt has
the national implications just on how effortlessly Mike was able
to go from the very local to the national and
and before we finish up on the top, well not
finish up leave the topical race. Can you give a
couple of words about UH, the Mexican immigration to Poughkeepsie
(15:46):
people from Wahawka, Mexico, how that has influenced UH Poughkeepsie.
And I would say in a very positive way.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Very definitely in a positive way. And as a matter
of fact, I may make that very clear that the
Latin ex community is UH. One of the areas, particularly
on Main upper Main Street, is where you have all
the bodegas and so forth, and there is an economic
as well as a social coherence there and so it's
(16:14):
a neighborhood UH. And that has been very important to
understanding what's going on in the in the city of Poughkeepsie,
the wahawkan story. I follow that in here in the
first edition as well and mostly and that's where Peter
Leonard comes in on his uh which and what I
(16:39):
say in that first edition about Peter Leonard you can
probably tell your story. Yeah, you can probably tell your story, uh,
Peter better than I. But when uh, the the death of.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Ladin scenario a Mexican worker on Poughkeepsie, which we can
just brush by, but when uh, we don't have to
tell the story I'm familiar with. But the story in
general of as you say, if you go down Main Street,
there are so many Latin businesses that have opened, you know. Uh,
it used to be if you get all the parking
(17:23):
spots you wanted on Main Street. That's no longer true.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
And so when you have energy coming like that, right,
that's a very positive thing. Right. And there still is
necessity obviously for integrating both the various ethnic and cultural
(17:47):
group like Ali gets for example, which is on Warriors Park.
The annual celebration brings people from all over the Hudson Valley,
but it brings everybody from the today Bakeepsie whether you're
Latino or not, through a marvelous, wonderful day and where
(18:11):
you can really see the sense of who we are
as a community.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
So in last year they brought back the Caribbean Festival
which had stopped for some time, which is which is
also Jazz in the Park, right, Jazz in the Valley
in the valley.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
So this is why I say that the arts and
culture is very important in pulling the whole community.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And going back to federal policy, federal policy around immigrants
from Latin America is affecting Poughkeepsie. In other words, you
can't be a person from Latin America and Poughkeepsie without
being nervous about yourself or one of your relatives. So
you have a scared group of people from Latin America.
(19:00):
Primarily we'll hawk on Mexico and Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
And that's a bid and it affects a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I you know, have regular drivers who are will hawking,
and one of them asked me one day ago, what
do you think is going to happen on the vote?
And I said, well, are you going to come out
and vote? And he said, normally I do vote, but
I don't think that we're going to because they anticipate
ICE being present, you know, just showing up. Let's say
(19:29):
ICE doesn't do anything, but just the presence of it
is going to prohibit people who normally engage in the process,
who are perfectly legal, who have all the necessary papers,
who are citizens of the United States. But but you know,
and and from the top down, they understand that.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
You're listening to Pete and the poet Gold.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I'm uncle Mike, thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
And Poe Gold is falling down her announcing.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yes, Poet Gold. And we're here with Harvey flad Arthur
of Main Street. Thank you a goodmyke to the main
frames the second edition.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
And I think it's really important. We alluded earlier about
this book, and I'm glowing that you wrote this book.
I can't wait to read it myself. But it's across
the country. I mean, you're focused very very well here
on Poughkeepsie, and you tell the story eloquently and precise.
But when you talk about Latinos, I'm pretty sure. One
(20:22):
of the last census, the Latino population is the largest
population in this country now as a group, there are
sixty some odd percent and it's the first time in
the years that white race, white angle, Saxson, whatever you
want to call us, or not the majority anymore. And
that's happening across the country. And the thing I don't
(20:44):
understand you're talking about ice and immigration and all the
craziness that's going on. This country was built on immigration.
We would not be the country we are without the
multi ethnic, religious, racial you know, and we're fighting it,
we're making it like it's bad, almost right, And I understand,
you know, Okay, you want to follow the laws of
(21:05):
the country, and I feel all that. I get all that,
but still don't condemn immigration because without it, we wouldn't
be the greatest country on the planet.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
It just wouldn't be.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
And the other thing I always laugh about is we're
the only country that worries about protecting our borders. The
other countries they're trying to get out of those countries,
they don't have a worry. They don't have any trouble
with people coming in. Nobody wants to go there. They
want to come here. And the reason they want to
come here is because the way this country was built
an opportunity here.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
And and to your point, uncle Mike, you know, early
on you you had, you know, the Italians that were
considered ethnic, you had the Irish that were considered ethnic.
So you had these you and then and then you
had your white Anglo Saxon Protestants, and so you had
these groups of immigrants who then transitioned into being white.
(21:52):
They were they were ethnic white by they were white
by skin color, but they were in ethnic groups and
they and they train transitioned into wasp.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
And the frightening thing to me is when you talk
about this, when you hear a large part of the
white Anglo Saxon race, they are the original citizens here.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Nobody is.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
Everybody is an immigrant here other than the Native American Indians.
The only ones that we're here indigenous people, the indigenous people.
And yet we now the white it was like we were, well,
you know, we're the biggest race because we were here.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
No, we came across the ocean.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
We weren't here, and we stole the company, the country
from the Native Americans. And they're still here fighting. I
give them credit, they're still trying to hold on, but
they're slowly but surely shrinking. And now when you hear
a lot of the history and the history, it's like
we were always here. It was our country and what
do you mean? You know that kind of thing and
it just wasn't that way. But it really bothers me
(22:50):
with immigration because I know and we all in this room, no,
without immigration, this country would never be where it is,
and we're condemning it now at this point, and.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I'm not thank you, Mike, and Mike has proven the
points about this book every time you opens every in
the six minutes we have left, and I go around
just to have everyone original notion of h what brought
you to Pocupsia, What do you like about Poughkeepsie? And
(23:21):
what do you hope for the future? If you do
that in ninety seconds.
Speaker 5 (23:25):
Before you do that, Gold, how do you get this book?
I think it's very important people understand how to get
this book.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yes, yes, definitely.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Well, first of all, Harvey is having a book signing
event on what's the date, June June eleventh at seven
pm at Gallery forty which is located in forty Canis Street, Pokeeps,
New York.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
But you can also.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Visit Harvey Flad dot WordPress dot com.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
That's right? And also Soony Press itself.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And Sunny Press and Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And then Barnes and Noble and the local Indie best
local shop. Book Killer is free.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Arts free, I free arts here, Okay, gold you want
to give us a ninety second version of your life
in Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Ninety second version of my life in Poughkeepsie. I think
I said it best.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
In the poem. You know, it's a place that gave
me wings to fly.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
You know, I can fly, fly, fly here and throughout
Dutchess County and even beyond, you know. But but but
for me, I was at a transition in my life
very shortly.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I was a transition in my life.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
And I was looking for new roots to plant someplace
and someplace to serve, you know as well.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
And it had all the elements.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It had the art, It had Japanese food, you know,
it had the things that that allow me to thrive
and grow. And so and I had my family here also.
I had family, you know, in the Hudson Valley, and
you know, they said, they said come here. And it
had a bridge very similar to where I grew up
in Washington Heights, you know, we had it had the
Hudson River here. So I stayed. You know I stayed,
(25:02):
and I'm glad I stayed and.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
With l you say, to meeting everybody else in Pi Gipsie, Oh,
do you want to give us a perspective on your
family to about how christ Church played a part? I
know you've been a prominent member of Christ Church for
a long time. How that functioned for you indeed? And
one of them is that we were living on an
(25:27):
academy street only two houses away from christ Church, so
that's what we could jump out of bed and go
to church.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
But also you know, with my wife and myself come
from different both of us are very different in our background,
but we were very close in terms of our histories
as we came together as Peace Corps volunteers and so forth,
(25:58):
and so on and so forth. But in terms of religion,
so we uh, when we came to pick Epsy, I mean,
that's the question you want, really want me to answer,
is that we were at that time, Uh, I was
(26:18):
finishing my doctorate at Syracuse University and coming to Vassar
to teach, and we were Catholic at that time, and
we came to what we were underground Catholics, you know,
we were there's a lot of our you know anyway,
(26:42):
and we came to pick Epsy and found that the
we did not find a comfortable place in And then
we did find out, uh because of a couple who
lived nearby who also was interracial coupled. I said, why
(27:06):
you try out christ Church and so we How long
have you been in it with christ Church? Probably I
would say forty years? And uncle Mike, how about you?
I know you've been in for.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Mike, so all about the future. I came to Poughkeepsie
as my wife was working in Vasa College. I was
working on Wall Street at the time, and we started
having kids. I quit my job on Wall Street and
I stayed home, as you know, the person take share
of the kids in the house. And then I got
(27:43):
involved in the Potepsie community in a very strong way.
When I started, one of my sons had autism and
developmental disabilities, so I became a disability advocate through New
Horizons resources. And then that eventually led me to you
getting a job as faster as a person who as
(28:05):
a community outreach or a community stuff. And I love
I loved Petipsia. I've had all that, but and I'm
really interested giving Mike ads ninety seconds.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Yeah, well, it's pretty simple. I mean, I grew up
over in Orange County of Monroe, New York. But I
was a track and trailer driver all my life. I've
been all around the country and it's fascinating to me
how many communities that you visit and you're only there
for a real short time, but you see such a
vast difference in places people should go across this country
because there's a lot of countries within this country.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
The way some of the states are in.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Some states are you know, Texas has run completely different
than the rest of the country. So it was California,
so it was New York, so it was Boston. They
all have their own known But to me.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
A geographer, I understand exactly we're talking.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
I mean, I was in country music all my life,
and I ended up here because of a relationship I
have but a very famous personality. I did a lot
of work in the in the clubs and things production
wise with him all the years when I was here
not on the road, and he needed me in this
so I came to the studio here. This broadcast originates
from the iHeart Studios on Tucker Drive in Poughkeepsie, New York.
So for the last fourteen years, I've spent a lot
(29:12):
of my time here in Poughkeepsie because I work here
and a lot I do a lot with the community,
mainly with the military and the first responders. But it's
in Poughkeepsie, so I'm in the community all the time here,
and I see such potential here and this book is
alluding to that. The potential is here. And once again,
tell them one more time, Gold. I really want people
to get this book because it's very well.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
You got it, You got it Main Street to Main Frames.
Author Harvey Flad will be at Gallery forty forty Canis Street, Poughkeepsie,
New York, June eleventh and seven pm. Also you can
get it at Barnes and Noble. What was the local
place that you said? Also the three Arts?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
The three arts and if you want more.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Of them also soon he pressed itself on their website and.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Also Harveyfladd dot WordPress dot.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Amen to Poughkeepsie and Harvey, thanks for writing the book
and coming in and doing two shows silly with us. Absolutely, Mike,
we certainly appreciate it. Are you making it high tide
on Tucker Drive this morning?
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Main Street to mainframe. Thank you to those listening today,
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer, those
are the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the station.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's staff, management or ownership.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
On good Morning, you'll find me out with Pete and the
Poelic Gold.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Peter Leon and I'm the poet Gold.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
On the ed with Horvey Fla, the author of From
Main Streets to Main Frames, a book about Poughkeepsie. And
before we get to Horvey, we're going to go right
to the poet Gold for a weekly poem prayer incantation.
Gol please let it roll.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
I'm going to read another excerpt from Poekeepsie, My Kipsie,
You puckuo Ippy sing the read Covert Lodge by the
Little Water Place, Native American poe Keepsie, My Kipsie. Not
quite the urban jungle I grew up in. But you
have sidewalks and I like that. I was not born
bred here, did not go to your schools here, rip
(00:49):
roar through your streets here, or play in your yards here.
My experience in Pockkeepsie may be different from yours here.
It's having a perfectly scrambled egg at Alex's Dina that's
important to me. I enjoy my food here. It's like
being a caterpillar morphing into a butterfly and realizing you
have wings to fly. Fly fly here.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
And Gold is reading from her poem which is actually
included in Harvey's book, From Main Street to Mainframes, and
I just want to give people the genesis of this show.
We finished taping a show on this book, but we
couldn't stop talking about it after we got off the air.
(01:31):
Uncle Mike was giving such passionate intensity that we decided
that four of us were joining to a show. So
Uncle Michae will be on the show today with us too.
But this is because we can't shut up.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
First of all, I am so happy you wrote both
of these books, because as we were talking, I think
we lost a couple generations through the school system, and
whatever you want to blame it on, I don't really
care what we did. COVID didn't help, And this book.
If Poughkeepsie is going to come back, it's going to
be the young people today that are going to have
to bring it back. And if they don't understand the history,
(02:06):
they're going to make the same mistakes. And you're pretty
clear at what how it evolved and why it evolved,
and I think it's just fantastic. I'm curious to read
the book and understand more because a lot of us
have hopes to do business here and Poughkeepsie. At some point.
You can't do it right now, but it's moving in
that direction, and I think this book is going to
help it move even further along in that direction.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
And you know the people who might not have heard
the first show. Professor Flier was very unclear about the
influence of the arts and the recovery of Poughkeepsie, focusing
on the walkway over the Hudson. He also spoke about
a lot at the geography, the physical and social geography
of Poughkeepsie, and what we wanted to do is go
(02:53):
further into it because of Uncle Mike's pointed about Poughkeepsie
the result being having adverse effects from federal policy, whether
it was in the thirties with urban renewal or the
fifties with the cereals being built. But one of the
things Harvey is I'd be surprised if I'm wrong on this,
(03:14):
but I need confirmation. Pickkeepsie is, besides being an interesting
book about Poughkeepsie. This is an interesting American book because
Pickkeepsie is not alone in having federal policy adversely effects cities.
Am I right on that that is absolutely correct? And
as a matter of fact, when Clyde Griffin, my co author,
(03:35):
and myself thought about doing this book, one of the
first things that came to our mind was the fact
that the books and research that have been written about
those problems urban renewal, for example, are all about big
cities Boston, Baltimore, New York, and so forth. But all
(03:58):
of the problems that they saw in terms of housing
and so forth, are available to understand to look at
research right here in the city of Poughkeepsie, a small city.
So it's a book for about small urban systems that
reflect also what's going on nationwide in much larger systems.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
What is the population of Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
It's thirty five thousand.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Thirty five thousand, forty thousand.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
You will see in the appendix we have the demographics
from nineteen hundred all the way, and you will see
that when when Poughkeepsie reached its height was during the
IBM period in nineteen fifties, and so with forty thousand
(04:52):
at that point. We went down from that and between
nineteen and then the twenty twenty Senses shows that we
are creeping back up, not only creeping.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Only creeping, oh and believing we're not creeps, we are
merely creeping. But one of the things that we thought
after the show, we will have such strong feelings about
Poughkeepsie that to have a sense of getting a personal
perspective on how we wound up in Poughkeepsie and what
(05:30):
I would commitments have been would be sort of another
view besides the book. It would take a more personal perspective.
So Harby, what we selt with you, what brought you
to Poughkeepsie, what kept you in Poughkeepsie, and what made
you interested in it?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
What brought my wife and myself and our growing family
to Poughkeepsie was in nineteen seventy two when I uh
was hired at Vassar College to teach geography and uh
so we began to live in in a Vassar apartment
(06:13):
for the first seven years or so, and then we
were looking for a house UH and UH what we
were able to find in the city of Poughkeepsie, something
that we could afford, you know, you've heard the term
white elephant. Well we got one of those and spent
the next couple of years kind of patching it back together.
(06:37):
But it was a wonderful, beautiful house on Academy Street,
one of the big old Victorians in the historic district. That,
of course, was part of what also established roots for
us in the city of Poughkeepsie was the historic nature
(06:59):
the and getting into the history of the city of Poughkeepsie.
The other was a social very definitely a social reason
because our kids were growing up initially, as I say,
in the town of Poughkeepsie a passor college and we
have a interracial family, and so our children found it
(07:22):
very difficult to be in the Arlington school district at
that time, and we wanted to go into a school
district that was multi ethnic, and that's what we found.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
So when you started talking about your kids found it's
difficulty in all and your voice lowered and it seems
to still have an echo of pain to your voice.
And moving to a more multi racial place like Pikeepsie
was a benefit for you, Is that right?
Speaker 1 (07:56):
That is absolutely correct. It was a benefit to our
children run as well as I mean they could they
were not under any feelings of exclusion. They were included
in Pickkeepsie.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
So it's fascinating. In the first episode of the interview,
you talked about IBM creating this back and Kill school
district for that very reason because they wanted their own
inclusive community. And it's fascinating to me when you look
at Poughkeepsie today that still exists today, even though when
you go through Poughkeepsie there's some beautiful sections of Poughkeepsie
(08:37):
with some beautiful homes that have been restored and seem
like it would be an absolute delight to live in.
And then you drive a couple of blocks and I
hate to say, but you're in the middle of hell
and that still exists here. Maybe not intentional, like you know,
you said IBM did that intentionally, and I believe they did.
It's not intentional, but it's it's it's lasted all these years.
You're talking fifty years later, that divide in the city
(09:00):
and the town still exist here, and it's kind of
it's interesting. I'd like to know your perspective why it
still exists. How is that never overcome?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Well, some of it is just structural in American life.
Racism continues to exist, but that's very subtle and it's
probably mostly economic. And it was certainly part of that
(09:29):
back then because when IBM was I came to Poughkeepsie,
there was and they came who they were hiring were
very important engineers coming and they were getting good salaries
and so forth, and they were young families too, But
there was no housing in the city of City of Pickipsie,
(09:52):
old housing, and so in that way, it was not
just the social issue, was very definitely an economic issue
is to find a decent, decent housing and so what
they so spacking Kill was built by Tom Watson Senior
(10:14):
to look for good, good new new housing for his
his emerging growing business.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
Yeah, well I became in this from what you're saying.
It became a necessity to attract these top engineers. You
had to give them a reason to come here, not
for just to work for you know, they don't work
twenty four hours a day. They have to have a
you know, private life, and they wanted to have great
homes and great schools for the children. Yes, because there
was other parts of the country that were probably competing
(10:47):
with them. And see your point, But I'm just fascinated today,
when you ride around Poughkeepsie, you can still go through
communities where you're like this, and it's an awful thing
to say, but you almost say, this can't be Poughkeepsie.
These houses are beautiful, look at these canmmunities. But then
you get a dose reality really quickly when you go
down the street a little ways and you're back in
the area that hasn't been upgraded. Although I have to
(11:09):
tell you there's a lot of building going on in Poughkeepsie.
Even in the areas that weren't great. People are taking
advantage economically, buying them at a low price and fixing
them up. And it's it's a fascinating to me. On
these blocks, once one house goes through that each house
next to it, it seems to spread. It seems, you know,
you see one house on the block all of a
sudden get fixed up, and then you go back six
(11:31):
or eight months later and there's three or four houses
on that block and it seems to be And that's
a good sign that it's working that way. But it's
just fascinating to me how it just it still has
that same divide. And if we we're gonna turn this
into the Poughkeepsie that I think all of us want.
We've got to get rid of that divide.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Right, And I'm going to come back to that. Uncle
Mike has some thoughts on that. Once again, if you're
just tuning in, you're listening to Finding Out with Pete
and the poet Gold and I'm the poet Gold and
we're having a wonderful conversation with Arthur Harvey Flatt on
this new book, second edition. I should say main Street
to Mainframes here with Uncle Mike and Peter and Harvey.
So to your point of how does the divide still
(12:11):
exist today? You know, it's never been dismantled. You know
there were things that were done, I believe intentionally, whether
they were for economic growth or whatever. Exclusivity, racial exclusivity, Uh,
it was a huge historically a part of it. You know,
didn't want necessarily the mingling of a multicultural environment. So
(12:34):
so you build a spack and Hill school district and
you pull out, pull out the white children, and you
put them in a certain environment and you leave all
the black and brown kids in another in another space.
It's sometimes difficult to recover from that if if you're
not conscious that you're part of the issue, you know,
out of out of a necessity, out of wanting food
(12:54):
on your plate, out of I want a good home,
you know, and so but you you can tribut to
that just in that cycle. And it's jarring to become
aware of it because now you're part of the construct.
You know, You're part of the system, and you just
can't wake up in the morning and go, I'm going
to give up my house and I'm going.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
To give up this good job, and I'm going to
because this is all wrong, you know.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
But but I think that there, once you become aware
of it, then I think we have a responsibility to
then begin to dismantle it in a way so that
that divide there's an equal sort of playing field for everyone.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
You know, I completely agree with you one, and I'm
going to be the eight hundred pound gerilla in the room.
The government we have today needs to be dismantled because
they are the ones that are keeping these rules and
enforcing the economic it's that's what's happening. We've gotten away
from having representative from the community in the state capitol
(13:56):
and in Washington. They're not representing the people anymore. And
it's a broad statement but there's a lot of them
that aren't representing people. And to your point, that's why
this continues to exist, because they're holding those rules and
those policies in place and we can't seem to replace
them in the seats and all been here down in Washington,
(14:17):
and you know, I mean, and.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
They're putting things in place to you know, sometimes I
used to say, well, we won't have a vote, And
what I mean by that is not literally that we
won't have a vote. That if there are certain things
put in place, like jerrymandering and things of that nature, redistricting,
if there's certain things that are put in place to
prevent representation, it's it's like not having a vote.
Speaker 5 (14:41):
It's all about control, right and they've got control right
now and they don't want to give it up and
we're the ones being hurt. And it always fascinates me
when you come to voting. We have an opportunity to
vote these people out. Election after election after election, twenty
five percent of the voter show up to vote, and
then the seventy five percent plain about what's going on.
It's not a hard it's not a not a real
(15:03):
difficult equation. You have the ability and the people if
they got honest, you know, there should be term limits,
there should be a lot of things in place. And
the people that need to vote that in are never
going to vote it in because that's their that's their
security right, and that's their way of maintaining control.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Absolutely absolutely, And you can see how Main.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Streets and main frames of book by Harvey Flatt has
the national implications just on how effortlessly Mike was able
to go from the very local to the national and
and before we finish up on the top, well not
finish up leave the topical race. Can you give a
couple of words about UH, the Mexican immigration to Poughkeepsie
(15:46):
people from Wahawka, Mexico, how that has influenced UH Poughkeepsie.
And I would say in a very positive way.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Very definitely in a positive way. And as a matter
of fact, I may make that very clear that the
Latin ex community is UH. One of the areas, particularly
on Main upper Main Street, is where you have all
the bodegas and so forth, and there is an economic
as well as a social coherence there and so it's
(16:14):
a neighborhood UH. And that has been very important to
understanding what's going on in the in the city of Poughkeepsie,
the wahawkan story. I follow that in here in the
first edition as well and mostly and that's where Peter
Leonard comes in on his uh which and what I
(16:39):
say in that first edition about Peter Leonard you can
probably tell your story. Yeah, you can probably tell your story, uh,
Peter better than I. But when uh, the the death of.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Ladin scenario a Mexican worker on Poughkeepsie, which we can
just brush by, but when uh, we don't have to
tell the story I'm familiar with. But the story in
general of as you say, if you go down Main Street,
there are so many Latin businesses that have opened, you know. Uh,
it used to be if you get all the parking
(17:23):
spots you wanted on Main Street. That's no longer true.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
And so when you have energy coming like that, right,
that's a very positive thing. Right. And there still is
necessity obviously for integrating both the various ethnic and cultural
(17:47):
group like Ali gets for example, which is on Warriors Park.
The annual celebration brings people from all over the Hudson Valley,
but it brings everybody from the today Bakeepsie whether you're
Latino or not, through a marvelous, wonderful day and where
(18:11):
you can really see the sense of who we are
as a community.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
So in last year they brought back the Caribbean Festival
which had stopped for some time, which is which is
also Jazz in the Park, right, Jazz in the Valley
in the valley.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
So this is why I say that the arts and
culture is very important in pulling the whole community.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And going back to federal policy, federal policy around immigrants
from Latin America is affecting Poughkeepsie. In other words, you
can't be a person from Latin America and Poughkeepsie without
being nervous about yourself or one of your relatives. So
you have a scared group of people from Latin America.
(19:00):
Primarily we'll hawk on Mexico and Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
And that's a bid and it affects a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I you know, have regular drivers who are will hawking,
and one of them asked me one day ago, what
do you think is going to happen on the vote?
And I said, well, are you going to come out
and vote? And he said, normally I do vote, but
I don't think that we're going to because they anticipate
ICE being present, you know, just showing up. Let's say
(19:29):
ICE doesn't do anything, but just the presence of it
is going to prohibit people who normally engage in the process,
who are perfectly legal, who have all the necessary papers,
who are citizens of the United States. But but you know,
and and from the top down, they understand that.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
You're listening to Pete and the poet Gold.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I'm uncle Mike, thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
And Poe Gold is falling down her announcing.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yes, Poet Gold. And we're here with Harvey flad Arthur
of Main Street. Thank you a goodmyke to the main
frames the second edition.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
And I think it's really important. We alluded earlier about
this book, and I'm glowing that you wrote this book.
I can't wait to read it myself. But it's across
the country. I mean, you're focused very very well here
on Poughkeepsie, and you tell the story eloquently and precise.
But when you talk about Latinos, I'm pretty sure. One
(20:22):
of the last census, the Latino population is the largest
population in this country now as a group, there are
sixty some odd percent and it's the first time in
the years that white race, white angle, Saxson, whatever you
want to call us, or not the majority anymore. And
that's happening across the country. And the thing I don't
(20:44):
understand you're talking about ice and immigration and all the
craziness that's going on. This country was built on immigration.
We would not be the country we are without the
multi ethnic, religious, racial you know, and we're fighting it,
we're making it like it's bad, almost right, And I understand,
you know, Okay, you want to follow the laws of
(21:05):
the country, and I feel all that. I get all that,
but still don't condemn immigration because without it, we wouldn't
be the greatest country on the planet.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
It just wouldn't be.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
And the other thing I always laugh about is we're
the only country that worries about protecting our borders. The
other countries they're trying to get out of those countries,
they don't have a worry. They don't have any trouble
with people coming in. Nobody wants to go there. They
want to come here. And the reason they want to
come here is because the way this country was built
an opportunity here.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
And and to your point, uncle Mike, you know, early
on you you had, you know, the Italians that were
considered ethnic, you had the Irish that were considered ethnic.
So you had these you and then and then you
had your white Anglo Saxon Protestants, and so you had
these groups of immigrants who then transitioned into being white.
(21:52):
They were they were ethnic white by they were white
by skin color, but they were in ethnic groups and
they and they train transitioned into wasp.
Speaker 5 (22:03):
And the frightening thing to me is when you talk
about this, when you hear a large part of the
white Anglo Saxon race, they are the original citizens here.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Nobody is.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
Everybody is an immigrant here other than the Native American Indians.
The only ones that we're here indigenous people, the indigenous people.
And yet we now the white it was like we were, well,
you know, we're the biggest race because we were here.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
No, we came across the ocean.
Speaker 5 (22:29):
We weren't here, and we stole the company, the country
from the Native Americans. And they're still here fighting. I
give them credit, they're still trying to hold on, but
they're slowly but surely shrinking. And now when you hear
a lot of the history and the history, it's like
we were always here. It was our country and what
do you mean? You know that kind of thing and
it just wasn't that way. But it really bothers me
(22:50):
with immigration because I know and we all in this room, no,
without immigration, this country would never be where it is,
and we're condemning it now at this point, and.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I'm not thank you, Mike, and Mike has proven the
points about this book every time you opens every in
the six minutes we have left, and I go around
just to have everyone original notion of h what brought
you to Pocupsia, What do you like about Poughkeepsie? And
(23:21):
what do you hope for the future? If you do
that in ninety seconds.
Speaker 5 (23:25):
Before you do that, Gold, how do you get this book?
I think it's very important people understand how to get
this book.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yes, yes, definitely.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Well, first of all, Harvey is having a book signing
event on what's the date, June June eleventh at seven
pm at Gallery forty which is located in forty Canis Street, Pokeeps,
New York.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
But you can also.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Visit Harvey Flad dot WordPress dot com.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
That's right? And also Soony Press itself.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And Sunny Press and Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
And then Barnes and Noble and the local Indie best
local shop. Book Killer is free.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Arts free, I free arts here, Okay, gold you want
to give us a ninety second version of your life
in Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Ninety second version of my life in Poughkeepsie. I think
I said it best.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
In the poem. You know, it's a place that gave
me wings to fly.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
You know, I can fly, fly, fly here and throughout
Dutchess County and even beyond, you know. But but but
for me, I was at a transition in my life
very shortly.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
I was a transition in my life.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
And I was looking for new roots to plant someplace
and someplace to serve, you know as well.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
And it had all the elements.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It had the art, It had Japanese food, you know,
it had the things that that allow me to thrive
and grow. And so and I had my family here also.
I had family, you know, in the Hudson Valley, and
you know, they said, they said come here. And it
had a bridge very similar to where I grew up
in Washington Heights, you know, we had it had the
Hudson River here. So I stayed. You know I stayed,
(25:02):
and I'm glad I stayed and.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
With l you say, to meeting everybody else in Pi Gipsie, Oh,
do you want to give us a perspective on your
family to about how christ Church played a part? I
know you've been a prominent member of Christ Church for
a long time. How that functioned for you indeed? And
one of them is that we were living on an
(25:27):
academy street only two houses away from christ Church, so
that's what we could jump out of bed and go
to church.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
But also you know, with my wife and myself come
from different both of us are very different in our background,
but we were very close in terms of our histories
as we came together as Peace Corps volunteers and so forth,
(25:58):
and so on and so forth. But in terms of religion,
so we uh, when we came to pick Epsy, I mean,
that's the question you want, really want me to answer,
is that we were at that time, Uh, I was
(26:18):
finishing my doctorate at Syracuse University and coming to Vassar
to teach, and we were Catholic at that time, and
we came to what we were underground Catholics, you know,
we were there's a lot of our you know anyway,
(26:42):
and we came to pick Epsy and found that the
we did not find a comfortable place in And then
we did find out, uh because of a couple who
lived nearby who also was interracial coupled. I said, why
(27:06):
you try out christ Church and so we How long
have you been in it with christ Church? Probably I
would say forty years? And uncle Mike, how about you?
I know you've been in for.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
Mike, so all about the future. I came to Poughkeepsie
as my wife was working in Vasa College. I was
working on Wall Street at the time, and we started
having kids. I quit my job on Wall Street and
I stayed home, as you know, the person take share
of the kids in the house. And then I got
(27:43):
involved in the Potepsie community in a very strong way.
When I started, one of my sons had autism and
developmental disabilities, so I became a disability advocate through New
Horizons resources. And then that eventually led me to you
getting a job as faster as a person who as
(28:05):
a community outreach or a community stuff. And I love
I loved Petipsia. I've had all that, but and I'm
really interested giving Mike ads ninety seconds.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Yeah, well, it's pretty simple. I mean, I grew up
over in Orange County of Monroe, New York. But I
was a track and trailer driver all my life. I've
been all around the country and it's fascinating to me
how many communities that you visit and you're only there
for a real short time, but you see such a
vast difference in places people should go across this country
because there's a lot of countries within this country.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
The way some of the states are in.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Some states are you know, Texas has run completely different
than the rest of the country. So it was California,
so it was New York, so it was Boston. They
all have their own known But to me.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
A geographer, I understand exactly we're talking.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
I mean, I was in country music all my life,
and I ended up here because of a relationship I
have but a very famous personality. I did a lot
of work in the in the clubs and things production
wise with him all the years when I was here
not on the road, and he needed me in this
so I came to the studio here. This broadcast originates
from the iHeart Studios on Tucker Drive in Poughkeepsie, New York.
So for the last fourteen years, I've spent a lot
(29:12):
of my time here in Poughkeepsie because I work here
and a lot I do a lot with the community,
mainly with the military and the first responders. But it's
in Poughkeepsie, so I'm in the community all the time here,
and I see such potential here and this book is
alluding to that. The potential is here. And once again,
tell them one more time, Gold. I really want people
to get this book because it's very well.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
You got it, You got it Main Street to Main Frames.
Author Harvey Flad will be at Gallery forty forty Canis Street, Poughkeepsie,
New York, June eleventh and seven pm. Also you can
get it at Barnes and Noble. What was the local
place that you said? Also the three Arts?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
The three arts and if you want more.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Of them also soon he pressed itself on their website and.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Also Harveyfladd dot WordPress dot.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Amen to Poughkeepsie and Harvey, thanks for writing the book
and coming in and doing two shows silly with us. Absolutely, Mike,
we certainly appreciate it. Are you making it high tide
on Tucker Drive this morning?
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Main Street to mainframe. Thank you to those listening today,
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