A powerful new investigative podcast is shining a light on a crisis that often goes unseen—the growing number of aging and dying individuals behind bars. In Dying on the Inside: Women Lifers at Muncy Prison, host WHYY’S Cherri Gregg explores the human, moral, and financial realities facing women serving life and long-term sentences in Pennsylvania. The five-part series launches April 22, 2026, and is produced by Temple University Logan Center for Urban Investigative Reporting in partnership with Create Genius Media and presented by WHYY. The podcast is written and co-executive produced by Yvonne Latty. We’re joined by Cherri Gregg and Yvonne Latty Director of the Logan Center for Urban Investigative to discuss the series and the urgent conversations it brings to the forefront. To mark the launch, a special public event will take place:
📅 Podcast Launch Discussion
• Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2026
• Time: 6:00 PM – 8:00 PM
• Location: WHYY
• Details: A panel conversation featuring advocates, policymakers, journalists, and justice-impacted individuals focused on solutions and raising awareness about aging in prison
• Registration: Available through the podcast website
🌐 Website & Socials
• Podcast: dyingontheinsidepodcast.com
• Presenter: whyy.org
• Host platform: WHYY Studio 2
Plus, as Philadelphia continues to uplift its vibrant LGBTQ+ community, a new initiative is taking shape to make the city even more welcoming for visitors from around the world. We’re joined by Tami Sortman, President of the Washington Square Civic Association and a leader with the Philadelphia Gay Tourism Caucus, to talk about the vision for the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center—an exciting new project in partnership with Visit Philadelphia that will celebrate LGBTQ+ history, culture, and community. Learn more about the Pride Visitors Center here:
🔗 https://www.phlvisitorcenter.com/things-to-do/philly-pride-visitor-center
📅 Podcast Launch Discussion
• Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2026
• Time: 6:00 PM – 8:00 PM
• Location: WHYY
• Details: A panel conversation featuring advocates, policymakers, journalists, and justice-impacted individuals focused on solutions and raising awareness about aging in prison
• Registration: Available through the podcast website
🌐 Website & Socials
• Podcast: dyingontheinsidepodcast.com
• Presenter: whyy.org
• Host platform: WHYY Studio 2
Plus, as Philadelphia continues to uplift its vibrant LGBTQ+ community, a new initiative is taking shape to make the city even more welcoming for visitors from around the world. We’re joined by Tami Sortman, President of the Washington Square Civic Association and a leader with the Philadelphia Gay Tourism Caucus, to talk about the vision for the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center—an exciting new project in partnership with Visit Philadelphia that will celebrate LGBTQ+ history, culture, and community. Learn more about the Pride Visitors Center here:
🔗 https://www.phlvisitorcenter.com/things-to-do/philly-pride-visitor-center
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning, and welcome to What's going on? A show
about making a difference in our lives and our communities.
I'm Lorraine Balladmorrow. Did you know that women behind prison
walls often face harsher sentencing than their male counterparts and
even accelerated agent These are just some of the issues
explored in a new podcast series. Today, we'll speak with
the women who produced it. Then we'll talk with Tammy
(00:20):
Sortman about the new Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center in partnership
with Visit Philadelphia that will celebrate and support the city's
LGBTQ plus community. Stay with us. A powerful new investigative
podcast is shining a light on a crisis that often
goes unseen, the growing number of aging and dying individuals
behind bars. Who are women dying on the inside? Women
(00:42):
Lifers at Muncy Prison hosted by Cherry Greg co host
of Studio two at WHYY and the host of this podcast,
explores the human, moral, and financial realities facing women serving
life and long term sentences in Pennsylvania. The series launches
April twenty second and is produce us by the Temple
University Logan Center for Urban Investigative Reporting in partnership with
(01:05):
Create Genius Media and presented by w Hyy. The podcast
is written and co executive produced by Vonn Lattie, director
of Temple's Logan Center. Joining us is Jerry greg and
Ivon Letty. Thank you both for joining us. I'm so
excited to speak to you about it. Cherry. What inspired
you to create Dying on the Inside and why focus
(01:25):
specifically on women at SEI Muncie.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Well, I'll tell you this story sort of has been
with me for several years. You know, I covered prisons
and formally incarcerated people for many years, and several years
ago some folks came to me and they said that
women inside of Munsey were getting thick and they were dying,
and I interviewed some women.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
It was very shocking to me. But then the pandemic hit.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I left my job, my whole life changed, but that
story continued to stick with me. Yvonne Laddie and I
both work at Temple. She's full time there. I teach
a class and she was doing some work on some
great podcasts here at WHYY, and in my mind I thought, I.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Hope I get to work with her.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
When I linked back up with some of the women
and just really realized that this story was continuing. Yvonne
was the first person I thought of, and so I
called her up and we met for coffee. And it's
been a two year process of work, just investigating some
of the stories that we had heard about what was
happening in monthsy and just verifying that work.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
And now we're at full production.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Evonne, you spent, as Terry mentioned, two years working on
this project. What stood out to you most during the
reporting and writing process.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
It's really difficult to report on what's going on in prisons.
It was so hard for us to get access to
the women to visit Monthsye. It feels like Cherry and
I have just been linking on and climbing hill and
mountain after hill and mountain and glacier. I mean, it's
(03:08):
been a really, really difficult and very emotional reporting process.
You know, I've been doing jonesm for a long time
in Philly, and I covered a lot of cases in
the nineties of murders where people got death penalty that
was then reduced to life or life without parole. I
(03:28):
remember Roger King and then Abraham and the whole Nine Yards.
So it's been really emotional to see the aftermenath of that.
But I would say, you know, my biggest takeaway from
this project has been this image of Cherry and I
just pushing forward through storms and all kinds of stuff,
(03:50):
really always centering the women and their stories and the
truth by trying to get to the truth.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Cherry. We had a chance to talk about this podcast
series a couple of days ago, and I learned so
much just from that conversation. And among the things that
I learned is that aging is for women in prison
is very different from aging for women not in prison.
Women are dying and they're aging in prison. Talk to
us about what that looks like and how widespread is
(04:21):
this issue nationally.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, and I want to piggyback on what Yvonne just said,
because in my mind, this is the third rail of
criminal justice reform. You know, we've talked about juveniles, we've
talked about people who are non violent offenders, but what
we haven't talked about is the people, like Yvonne said,
who were locked up in the eighties and nineties during
(04:43):
this tough on crime era and are now aging and
they're now old, they're now in wheelchairs, they're now have walkers,
they're now dealing with cancer at a higher rate than
people on the outside. The thing that we learned about
being in cars is that there is a phenomenon called
(05:03):
accelerated aging, where you age at a faster rate than
you would if you lived on the outside. And many
of the women that you meet, they're in their sixties,
but they if they make it to sixties, some of
them are in their forties when they're sick, fifties when
they're sick, early sixties, and they have ailments that on
(05:25):
the outside are you know, associated with women who are
decades older than they would be. And there's a lot
of reasons for that, including nutrition and just including the
stressful nature of being incarcerated, but also access to ongoing healthcare.
It's very very difficult to access healthcare.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
And Yvon can attest to this.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
We were very shocked that, you know, if you have
cancer on the outside, it is hard.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
You got to go to chemo, it's all the things
you have to do.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Imagine it being ten times harder if you are incarcerated
and there are so many barriers. Just you can't even
call you doctor, you can't even get access to test results,
and so it's just a really the likelihood that you're
from the heel and have access to all the holistic things,
the change of diet, all the things that you need,
(06:19):
you don't have access to because you are incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
If I let's talk about the criminal justice system and
how it swings for women. We often see that women
are given harsher sentences than maybe their male counterparts. I
actually have a great example of someone in my larger
family who was convicted of drug trafficking. Her partner, who
(06:43):
was really the mastermind, was sentenced, but he was released
before she. She did her full ten years, but he
got released and deported. And so we see that inequity
in sentencing for women in the criminal justice system. So
let's talk about that for a minute, Yvonne.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
It's been one of the saddest things I think that
I witnessed in doing this project, or the amount of
women who were with a boyfriend, the boyfriend did the
killing or another man did the murder, and they were
just in the room. They got life without parole and
the person who actually did the murder was out in
(07:22):
five to ten years, or were able to take advantage
of the juvenile law changes because they were seventeen when it happened,
but the woman was eighteen. And the amount of women
that commit crimes because they alleged that they've been manipulated
by men. There always seems to be a man somewhere
in the middle of all of this. And in one case,
(07:44):
we interviewed a woman who was a victim of domestic
violence and killed her partner and then turned herself in,
you know, and you know, forty years later, she's still
in prison and sick, very sick, with no literally forgotten.
That was some of the toughest stuff, was the stuff
(08:06):
with them having children, and the one when we went
to month see the way empty waiting rooms and knowing
that when you visit a male prison, the waiting rooms
are filled with the women and the children and the mothers,
but their waiting rooms are empty. There's a lot of loneliness.
There's a lot of sexual violence, which was also hard
(08:27):
to process. You don't just wind up in these situations.
A lot has happened to these women that led them
to these situations, and so it's very complicated, but you
do see, definitely see a lot of inequity and a
lot of a different type of pain and struggle among
the women than when you deal with male prisoners. I mean,
(08:48):
I know it's hard for everyone, but so often these
women are there for second degree, you know, being in
the room, driving the getaway car, being addicted to drugs
and being manipulated by their drug dealer boyfriend to do
things that they normally wouldn't have done and did while
they were high. And to see the compassion that's afforded
(09:09):
to people now who are suffering from addiction to what
was happening in the eighties with crack, it's very, very sobering.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Let's put it in that way, Terry.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Many of the women featured have complex personal histories. Why
is it important for listeners to hear their voices directly?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Part of what we really tried to do? And I
think yvon mentioned this is center the women. You very
rarely hear from incarcerated women, and one of the reasons
is because when a woman commits a crime, the stigma
is far worse than when a man commits a crime.
You know, women are supposed to be mothers, and many
(09:46):
of them are, as Yvonne mentioned, their daughters. They're not
supposed to be involved in the things that many of
these women were involved in, and so the stigma about them.
They even hide many times and don't speak up for themselves,
and so this is a rare opportunity, I think, for
us to give them voice. These women who have many
(10:08):
of them, I think most of them that we've interviewed,
spent at least three decades behind bars, if not more
the minimum of three decades. And so these are women
that largely forgotten their mothers, their grandmothers, A lot of
them are rocks within their family and even from prison,
their mother ing and grandmothering and supporting people on the outside.
(10:31):
And so we just want people to remember who they are,
to empathize with their situations, to know that if many
of these women were arrested today and incarcerated today, they
would not have gotten the sentences that they're now serving.
And so the laws have changed. But what we haven't
dealt with are the people, like I said, who were
(10:54):
sentenced thirty years ago, forty years ago. And I just
want to also mention that it is very expensive to
keep these women incarcerated. Most of them are not any
type of threat to public safety, and yet they have
zero opportunity to even get a chance at parole, and
(11:15):
what mandatory life without parole is essentially is death by incarceration.
We've heard experts describe it as that, and I say
that because under the legal code, if you are sentenced
to death, you have access to all sorts of appeals
and other processes. But you don't get that if you
are any of these women. And you know, there's a
(11:37):
recent law change thanks to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court that
opens the door for some of the women who were
convicted of second degree murder. They have an opportunity now,
hopefully to get their cases looked at, possibly get resentenced,
and maybe at some point in the near future, have
an opportunity to get parole. But in the meantime, we're
(11:57):
hoping that Yvonne and I and our entire team and
the women themselves want to share their voices and share
their stories so that people really understand that this is
a national crisis.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yvonne and Jerry, there is going to be a podcast
launch that's happening on Wednesday, April twenty second. Give us
the details.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
It's at WHYY from six to eight pm. It is free.
You can go to whyy dot org slash events. We're
going to have a reception.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yvonne, we will have a listening experience with Yvonne and
then we will have a panel discussion where we're here
from our former lifer. We'll also hear from some policymakers
and leaders in the justice impacted community where we look
forward to what is going to happen with regard to
those who were convicted of second degree murder and our
(12:50):
serving these mandatory life with our parole sentences, what does
a second chance look like for them?
Speaker 1 (12:56):
And a final word, what do you hope policymakers, advocates
and the public take away from the series?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Wow?
Speaker 4 (13:04):
What I hope they take away from the series is
really I guess probably what I've taken away from the
from this series as a person who wouldn't I mean,
I covered a lot of crime, but I wouldn't say
that I thought a lot about the people that were convicted.
I probably was a little bit more heartfelt for the
(13:24):
victims' families is how very human they are and that
is it's fair? What is redemption really? What does redemption
look like? And what do you have to do? How
many years do you have to serve to have a
second chance? You know? Yeah, there really is something about
(13:46):
being in jail for over thirty years where you really
have to look at yourself and what you did, and
every single one of those women are so sorry. They
are so so sorry for what they did, so so
so sorry, and they have spent decades now supporting each other,
helping each other, participating in church support groups, being active
(14:12):
members of their community, going to college. We have a
woman going for a PhD, write bookwright, authors, magazine publishers
in prison. What do you have to do to show
that you've changed and that you can come out here
in Philly especially and maybe help some of these young
people that are struggling with what they struggled with. Who
(14:34):
better a role model than someone like these women who
are literally in their fifties and sixties and are not
are not going to do anything. I mean, they're not
on drugs anymore, they're not hanging out with the wrong boys.
These are women that they might be fifty six, but
they're really more like seventy six. I hope that people
listen to our podcast and care and care enough to
(14:57):
see them and to imagine and who these women are
and what they went through, and maybe see a little
bit of themselves in them, because I know that I
do mistakes, I've made things I wish I didn't do,
you know, battling my own issues, the creaky back and
stuff as you get older. Like to see them as
as human beings who are very very sorry. And no
(15:20):
one's saying that they didn't deserve to ever be incarcerated.
But for how many years? And what does redemption look like?
When should you have a second chance? And I hope
that these policymakers who are you know, Oh, there's so
many bills that sit in committee and they don't go
anywhere because there's no political will to really advocate for,
(15:43):
you know, the bad guys. But I guess I would
say these are not the bad guys. These are people
that need a second chance.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Jerry.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
If people want to listen to the podcast after the
kickoff on the twenty second, where do they go?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
They can go to whatever podcast platform that they use
and search Dying on the Inside. You should be able
to see Dying on the Inside podcast and women Lifers
of Months. You should come right up. Please listen to
the trailer. It's out now. You can subscribe to the
podcast and you can also go to Dying on the
Inside podcast dot com and join our list serve and
(16:19):
we'll invite you personally to the event. You can also
register there at whyy dot org slasher dots Well.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Thank you both for the amazing work that you've done
to elevate the voices of women whose voices have not
been heard, women who are incarcerated and are dying on
the inside. Women Lifers at Muncie Prison At podcast series
hosted by Cherry greg co host of Studio two at WHYY,
(16:46):
which explores the human, moral, and financial realities facing women
serving life and long term sentences in Pennsylvania. Also, we
were joined by von Laddie, director of Temple's Logan Center.
She is the the writer and the co executive producer
of this series. Thank you both so very much for
bringing the light on this very important issue.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
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Speaker 5 (17:45):
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Speaker 3 (18:00):
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Speaker 1 (18:02):
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Speaker 1 (18:19):
I'm delighted to welcome Tammy Sortman, president of the Washington
Square Civic Association. She's on the committee was on the
committee to create the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center in partnership
with Visit Philly. She's president of the Philadelphia Gay Tourism Caucus.
We are here to talk about the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center.
I'm so happy to have you for listeners who may
not be aware and have not visited yet. What is
(18:42):
the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center and what inspired its creation
right here in the city of brotherly and sisterly love.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
Well, thank you for having me. First of all, Lorraine,
it's exciting to be here with you. I've sat on
boards with you and have enjoyed working side by side
with you. So it's always great to come and partner
with somebody that works so hard for the city of
Philadelphia and all the different communities that are out there.
Thank you. But yeah, the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center has
(19:12):
been a long awaited destination for the LGBTQ plus travelers
as well as any travelers that are coming into the
city of Philadelphia. Philadelphia has a long history of the
LGBTQ plus travelers and promoting that they should come and
(19:33):
visit Philadelphia for its history and its nightlife. I mean,
the original campaign that Visit Philadelphia did back in two
thousand and three was Philadelphia get your History Straight in
your night Life, Gay.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Love It.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
That went gangbusters for not just Philadelphia but the country
in general because no one else was really talking to
this niche market. It was a fifty two billion dollar
market at the time. It was not discovered until I'm
just gonna do a shout out right now to Florida
(20:10):
and the Florida Keys actually were the very very first
that talked to that audience a little bit and they've
been the best destination as well for LGBTQ plus travelers.
But here in Philadelphia, as everyone knows or maybe don't know,
you know, we're the first for everything, right, we have
the history. We're here, it's our two hundred and fiftieth
(20:32):
anniversary of our country. We're the birthplace of America. So
why wouldn't we have something like this to offer all
of these travelers who will be coming in in July,
June and July, you know, for all the events that
are coming up from FIFA to the baseball, you name it,
(20:53):
it's here. And then our big celebration July fourth that
we're going to be hosting the world with. So this
Visitor Center is partnerships with everybody from visit Philadelphia to
the Visitors Center. It is a satellite location that offers
everything that the main location down in Old City in
(21:14):
the Historic Mile has to offer. So if you need
tickets to see the Liberty Bell, if you want to
go to the Betsy Ross House. Anything and everything you could
think of is in that visitor center as well. But
it also shows and gives you the history of our
city when it comes to LGBTQ plus. It is in
(21:37):
the heart of our neighborhood, right on Locust Street, almost
at the corner of Twelfth and Locust. It is so welcoming.
It's actually attached to one of our major restaurant and
bar locations, which is called Knock. Knock has been around
for a very very long time time, and you can
(21:59):
basically go in to Knock and enter into the visitor
center if you'd like, because they're attached but separated. At
the same time, they have a full staff in there
Thursdays through Monday from noon until six. You can go
in there at any time during those days and times
and ask any kind of question about the LGBTQ plus
(22:22):
community and the history that has gone on here in Philadelphia.
They've been educated by a lot of the archivists here
in the city that deal with the LGBTQ plus. That
would also mean William Way Community Center has been involved.
So it's really really a monument and an excitement that
(22:45):
the city hasn't seen in a while and it's really
uplifted us as.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
We talk about history of this city, of this state,
of this country. So often contributors to that history are ignored, erased,
or overlooked. And in this community in Philadelphia, LGBTQ plus
history is fundamental. There are a lot of first that
(23:13):
happened here.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
Right, Yeah, absolutely absolutely. I mean, you know, everyone talks
about Stonewall, Yeah, but Stonewall was really second. Yeah, it
was nineteen sixty nine. It's more about that nineteen. In
nineteen sixty five here in Philadelphia, down in front of
Independence Hall was really held the first protest for the
LGBTQ plus community. Barber Gettings and everybody who marched dressed
(23:40):
up right because they wanted people to see that they're
just like everyone else, right to talk about the rights
that we should have as individuals and as community people,
community leaders. So nineteen sixty five is such an important
time for Philadelphia, and there's a blue historic marker down
(24:02):
there that commemorates it and talks all about it. I
mean the same thing for the first gay bookstore that
has been in existence the longest in the country. So
as Giovanni's Room, YEP at the corner of Pine and
Twelfth right, it's still there. It still exists today, and
there is a blue historic marker there as well that
(24:24):
commemorates that location. The amount of firsts that have happened
here in Philadelphia is unbelievable that people still don't understand
or know all of the history that comes along with it.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah, And I think that's the value of this visitor
center is that not only does it cater to the
LGBTQI plus visitor who's coming in from out of town
or out of the county coming to Philadelphia, but for
those not in the community to come in and see
(24:59):
what's there and what's available and to become educated because
we all need to become educated about everyone's contribution because
as we do that, we get to see each other
more fully.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
Right, absolutely, absolutely, And I mean parents can bring their
kids because there's a lot of kids out there. They
want to feel belonging, right, They want to feel like
there are other people out there like them, and this
is an opportunity for parents to bring their kids down
to learn more about the community and what the community
(25:32):
has to offer. It's not just the history, it's what's
happening right now. Different groups that you can get involved
with or talk with, different events that will be going
on throughout the year that always happen here in Philadelphia
for our community. So it's a meeting place now for people.
It's a starting point for people and everyone and anyone
(25:55):
is welcome. And that's what makes it so great is
that everyone has that opportunity to come and have a conversation,
to come and see what has happened, to come and
experience things that they didn't know existed before, and to
come and connect.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, and as you mentioned earlier, the LGBTQI plus visitors
potentially can be of great benefit to the city of Philadelphia.
There's an enormous amount of buying power in that community,
and let's bring it to Philadelphia. Spend your money. Spend
it on you know, LGBTQI owned businesses, but spend it
(26:37):
on all businesses, because that is what the nature of
visitors coming to Philadelphia. They infuse us with their cash,
their interest in who we are as a city. And
this gives us yet another opportunity to really delve into
the history of Philadelphia because the history encompasses so many
(26:59):
individual rules and groups, and it's important for us to
really understand the variety and the diversity of our country
and of our city. So, Tammy, if people want to
know more information about the Philadelphia Pride Visitor Center, how
do they find out more?
Speaker 6 (27:17):
Sure, they can just go to phl visitor Center dot
com and under that search Pride and it'll pop right up.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yes, and I'll have lots of great resources and information
for you. Tammy Sortman, who is on the committee to
create the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center and partnership with Visit
Philly and many other organizations. He's also president of the
Washington Square Civic Association and the president of the Philadelphia
Gay Tourism Caucus. Thank you so much for joining us
here today and appreciate you enlightening us about this great
(27:50):
resource for Philadelphia, the Philadelphia Pride Visitor Center.
Speaker 6 (27:53):
Thank you, Dammi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
You can listen to all of today's interviews on the
iHeartRadio app and podcast platforms by typing in keywords Philadelphia
Community Podcast. Follow me on Instagram and threads at Lorraine
Ballard and Lorraine Moral on TikTok and that's Lorraine with
one R. I'm Lorraine Ballad tomorrow and I stand for
service to our community and media that empowers. What will
you stand for? You've been listening to what's going on,
(28:17):
and thank you
Good morning, and welcome to What's going on? A show
about making a difference in our lives and our communities.
I'm Lorraine Balladmorrow. Did you know that women behind prison
walls often face harsher sentencing than their male counterparts and
even accelerated agent These are just some of the issues
explored in a new podcast series. Today, we'll speak with
the women who produced it. Then we'll talk with Tammy
(00:20):
Sortman about the new Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center in partnership
with Visit Philadelphia that will celebrate and support the city's
LGBTQ plus community. Stay with us. A powerful new investigative
podcast is shining a light on a crisis that often
goes unseen, the growing number of aging and dying individuals
behind bars. Who are women dying on the inside? Women
(00:42):
Lifers at Muncy Prison hosted by Cherry Greg co host
of Studio two at WHYY and the host of this podcast,
explores the human, moral, and financial realities facing women serving
life and long term sentences in Pennsylvania. The series launches
April twenty second and is produce us by the Temple
University Logan Center for Urban Investigative Reporting in partnership with
(01:05):
Create Genius Media and presented by w Hyy. The podcast
is written and co executive produced by Vonn Lattie, director
of Temple's Logan Center. Joining us is Jerry greg and
Ivon Letty. Thank you both for joining us. I'm so
excited to speak to you about it. Cherry. What inspired
you to create Dying on the Inside and why focus
(01:25):
specifically on women at SEI Muncie.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Well, I'll tell you this story sort of has been
with me for several years. You know, I covered prisons
and formally incarcerated people for many years, and several years
ago some folks came to me and they said that
women inside of Munsey were getting thick and they were dying,
and I interviewed some women.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
It was very shocking to me. But then the pandemic hit.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I left my job, my whole life changed, but that
story continued to stick with me. Yvonne Laddie and I
both work at Temple. She's full time there. I teach
a class and she was doing some work on some
great podcasts here at WHYY, and in my mind I thought, I.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Hope I get to work with her.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
When I linked back up with some of the women
and just really realized that this story was continuing. Yvonne
was the first person I thought of, and so I
called her up and we met for coffee. And it's
been a two year process of work, just investigating some
of the stories that we had heard about what was
happening in monthsy and just verifying that work.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
And now we're at full production.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Evonne, you spent, as Terry mentioned, two years working on
this project. What stood out to you most during the
reporting and writing process.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
It's really difficult to report on what's going on in prisons.
It was so hard for us to get access to
the women to visit Monthsye. It feels like Cherry and
I have just been linking on and climbing hill and
mountain after hill and mountain and glacier. I mean, it's
(03:08):
been a really, really difficult and very emotional reporting process.
You know, I've been doing jonesm for a long time
in Philly, and I covered a lot of cases in
the nineties of murders where people got death penalty that
was then reduced to life or life without parole. I
(03:28):
remember Roger King and then Abraham and the whole Nine Yards.
So it's been really emotional to see the aftermenath of that.
But I would say, you know, my biggest takeaway from
this project has been this image of Cherry and I
just pushing forward through storms and all kinds of stuff,
(03:50):
really always centering the women and their stories and the
truth by trying to get to the truth.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Cherry. We had a chance to talk about this podcast
series a couple of days ago, and I learned so
much just from that conversation. And among the things that
I learned is that aging is for women in prison
is very different from aging for women not in prison.
Women are dying and they're aging in prison. Talk to
us about what that looks like and how widespread is
(04:21):
this issue nationally.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, and I want to piggyback on what Yvonne just said,
because in my mind, this is the third rail of
criminal justice reform. You know, we've talked about juveniles, we've
talked about people who are non violent offenders, but what
we haven't talked about is the people, like Yvonne said,
who were locked up in the eighties and nineties during
(04:43):
this tough on crime era and are now aging and
they're now old, they're now in wheelchairs, they're now have walkers,
they're now dealing with cancer at a higher rate than
people on the outside. The thing that we learned about
being in cars is that there is a phenomenon called
(05:03):
accelerated aging, where you age at a faster rate than
you would if you lived on the outside. And many
of the women that you meet, they're in their sixties,
but they if they make it to sixties, some of
them are in their forties when they're sick, fifties when
they're sick, early sixties, and they have ailments that on
(05:25):
the outside are you know, associated with women who are
decades older than they would be. And there's a lot
of reasons for that, including nutrition and just including the
stressful nature of being incarcerated, but also access to ongoing healthcare.
It's very very difficult to access healthcare.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
And Yvon can attest to this.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
We were very shocked that, you know, if you have
cancer on the outside, it is hard.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
You got to go to chemo, it's all the things
you have to do.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Imagine it being ten times harder if you are incarcerated
and there are so many barriers. Just you can't even
call you doctor, you can't even get access to test results,
and so it's just a really the likelihood that you're
from the heel and have access to all the holistic things,
the change of diet, all the things that you need,
(06:19):
you don't have access to because you are incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
If I let's talk about the criminal justice system and
how it swings for women. We often see that women
are given harsher sentences than maybe their male counterparts. I
actually have a great example of someone in my larger
family who was convicted of drug trafficking. Her partner, who
(06:43):
was really the mastermind, was sentenced, but he was released
before she. She did her full ten years, but he
got released and deported. And so we see that inequity
in sentencing for women in the criminal justice system. So
let's talk about that for a minute, Yvonne.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
It's been one of the saddest things I think that
I witnessed in doing this project, or the amount of
women who were with a boyfriend, the boyfriend did the
killing or another man did the murder, and they were
just in the room. They got life without parole and
the person who actually did the murder was out in
(07:22):
five to ten years, or were able to take advantage
of the juvenile law changes because they were seventeen when it happened,
but the woman was eighteen. And the amount of women
that commit crimes because they alleged that they've been manipulated
by men. There always seems to be a man somewhere
in the middle of all of this. And in one case,
(07:44):
we interviewed a woman who was a victim of domestic
violence and killed her partner and then turned herself in,
you know, and you know, forty years later, she's still
in prison and sick, very sick, with no literally forgotten.
That was some of the toughest stuff, was the stuff
(08:06):
with them having children, and the one when we went
to month see the way empty waiting rooms and knowing
that when you visit a male prison, the waiting rooms
are filled with the women and the children and the mothers,
but their waiting rooms are empty. There's a lot of loneliness.
There's a lot of sexual violence, which was also hard
(08:27):
to process. You don't just wind up in these situations.
A lot has happened to these women that led them
to these situations, and so it's very complicated, but you
do see, definitely see a lot of inequity and a
lot of a different type of pain and struggle among
the women than when you deal with male prisoners. I mean,
(08:48):
I know it's hard for everyone, but so often these
women are there for second degree, you know, being in
the room, driving the getaway car, being addicted to drugs
and being manipulated by their drug dealer boyfriend to do
things that they normally wouldn't have done and did while
they were high. And to see the compassion that's afforded
(09:09):
to people now who are suffering from addiction to what
was happening in the eighties with crack, it's very, very sobering.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Let's put it in that way, Terry.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Many of the women featured have complex personal histories. Why
is it important for listeners to hear their voices directly?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Part of what we really tried to do? And I
think yvon mentioned this is center the women. You very
rarely hear from incarcerated women, and one of the reasons
is because when a woman commits a crime, the stigma
is far worse than when a man commits a crime.
You know, women are supposed to be mothers, and many
(09:46):
of them are, as Yvonne mentioned, their daughters. They're not
supposed to be involved in the things that many of
these women were involved in, and so the stigma about them.
They even hide many times and don't speak up for themselves,
and so this is a rare opportunity, I think, for
us to give them voice. These women who have many
(10:08):
of them, I think most of them that we've interviewed,
spent at least three decades behind bars, if not more
the minimum of three decades. And so these are women
that largely forgotten their mothers, their grandmothers, A lot of
them are rocks within their family and even from prison,
their mother ing and grandmothering and supporting people on the outside.
(10:31):
And so we just want people to remember who they are,
to empathize with their situations, to know that if many
of these women were arrested today and incarcerated today, they
would not have gotten the sentences that they're now serving.
And so the laws have changed. But what we haven't
dealt with are the people, like I said, who were
(10:54):
sentenced thirty years ago, forty years ago. And I just
want to also mention that it is very expensive to
keep these women incarcerated. Most of them are not any
type of threat to public safety, and yet they have
zero opportunity to even get a chance at parole, and
(11:15):
what mandatory life without parole is essentially is death by incarceration.
We've heard experts describe it as that, and I say
that because under the legal code, if you are sentenced
to death, you have access to all sorts of appeals
and other processes. But you don't get that if you
are any of these women. And you know, there's a
(11:37):
recent law change thanks to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court that
opens the door for some of the women who were
convicted of second degree murder. They have an opportunity now,
hopefully to get their cases looked at, possibly get resentenced,
and maybe at some point in the near future, have
an opportunity to get parole. But in the meantime, we're
(11:57):
hoping that Yvonne and I and our entire team and
the women themselves want to share their voices and share
their stories so that people really understand that this is
a national crisis.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yvonne and Jerry, there is going to be a podcast
launch that's happening on Wednesday, April twenty second. Give us
the details.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
It's at WHYY from six to eight pm. It is free.
You can go to whyy dot org slash events. We're
going to have a reception.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yvonne, we will have a listening experience with Yvonne and
then we will have a panel discussion where we're here
from our former lifer. We'll also hear from some policymakers
and leaders in the justice impacted community where we look
forward to what is going to happen with regard to
those who were convicted of second degree murder and our
(12:50):
serving these mandatory life with our parole sentences, what does
a second chance look like for them?
Speaker 1 (12:56):
And a final word, what do you hope policymakers, advocates
and the public take away from the series?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Wow?
Speaker 4 (13:04):
What I hope they take away from the series is
really I guess probably what I've taken away from the
from this series as a person who wouldn't I mean,
I covered a lot of crime, but I wouldn't say
that I thought a lot about the people that were convicted.
I probably was a little bit more heartfelt for the
(13:24):
victims' families is how very human they are and that
is it's fair? What is redemption really? What does redemption
look like? And what do you have to do? How
many years do you have to serve to have a
second chance? You know? Yeah, there really is something about
(13:46):
being in jail for over thirty years where you really
have to look at yourself and what you did, and
every single one of those women are so sorry. They
are so so sorry for what they did, so so
so sorry, and they have spent decades now supporting each other,
helping each other, participating in church support groups, being active
(14:12):
members of their community, going to college. We have a
woman going for a PhD, write bookwright, authors, magazine publishers
in prison. What do you have to do to show
that you've changed and that you can come out here
in Philly especially and maybe help some of these young
people that are struggling with what they struggled with. Who
(14:34):
better a role model than someone like these women who
are literally in their fifties and sixties and are not
are not going to do anything. I mean, they're not
on drugs anymore, they're not hanging out with the wrong boys.
These are women that they might be fifty six, but
they're really more like seventy six. I hope that people
listen to our podcast and care and care enough to
(14:57):
see them and to imagine and who these women are
and what they went through, and maybe see a little
bit of themselves in them, because I know that I
do mistakes, I've made things I wish I didn't do,
you know, battling my own issues, the creaky back and
stuff as you get older. Like to see them as
as human beings who are very very sorry. And no
(15:20):
one's saying that they didn't deserve to ever be incarcerated.
But for how many years? And what does redemption look like?
When should you have a second chance? And I hope
that these policymakers who are you know, Oh, there's so
many bills that sit in committee and they don't go
anywhere because there's no political will to really advocate for,
(15:43):
you know, the bad guys. But I guess I would
say these are not the bad guys. These are people
that need a second chance.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Jerry.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
If people want to listen to the podcast after the
kickoff on the twenty second, where do they go?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
They can go to whatever podcast platform that they use
and search Dying on the Inside. You should be able
to see Dying on the Inside podcast and women Lifers
of Months. You should come right up. Please listen to
the trailer. It's out now. You can subscribe to the
podcast and you can also go to Dying on the
Inside podcast dot com and join our list serve and
(16:19):
we'll invite you personally to the event. You can also
register there at whyy dot org slasher dots Well.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Thank you both for the amazing work that you've done
to elevate the voices of women whose voices have not
been heard, women who are incarcerated and are dying on
the inside. Women Lifers at Muncie Prison At podcast series
hosted by Cherry greg co host of Studio two at WHYY,
(16:46):
which explores the human, moral, and financial realities facing women
serving life and long term sentences in Pennsylvania. Also, we
were joined by von Laddie, director of Temple's Logan Center.
She is the the writer and the co executive producer
of this series. Thank you both so very much for
bringing the light on this very important issue.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
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Speaker 3 (18:00):
And ally of this community speak out.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
There are more of us together than a.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Part It is the power of love. It's rawest for I'm.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
Joined the fight for LGBTQ acceptance. Learn how at Love
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Speaker 1 (18:19):
I'm delighted to welcome Tammy Sortman, president of the Washington
Square Civic Association. She's on the committee was on the
committee to create the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center in partnership
with Visit Philly. She's president of the Philadelphia Gay Tourism Caucus.
We are here to talk about the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center.
I'm so happy to have you for listeners who may
not be aware and have not visited yet. What is
(18:42):
the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center and what inspired its creation
right here in the city of brotherly and sisterly love.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
Well, thank you for having me. First of all, Lorraine,
it's exciting to be here with you. I've sat on
boards with you and have enjoyed working side by side
with you. So it's always great to come and partner
with somebody that works so hard for the city of
Philadelphia and all the different communities that are out there.
Thank you. But yeah, the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center has
(19:12):
been a long awaited destination for the LGBTQ plus travelers
as well as any travelers that are coming into the
city of Philadelphia. Philadelphia has a long history of the
LGBTQ plus travelers and promoting that they should come and
(19:33):
visit Philadelphia for its history and its nightlife. I mean,
the original campaign that Visit Philadelphia did back in two
thousand and three was Philadelphia get your History Straight in
your night Life, Gay.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Love It.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
That went gangbusters for not just Philadelphia but the country
in general because no one else was really talking to
this niche market. It was a fifty two billion dollar
market at the time. It was not discovered until I'm
just gonna do a shout out right now to Florida
(20:10):
and the Florida Keys actually were the very very first
that talked to that audience a little bit and they've
been the best destination as well for LGBTQ plus travelers.
But here in Philadelphia, as everyone knows or maybe don't know,
you know, we're the first for everything, right, we have
the history. We're here, it's our two hundred and fiftieth
(20:32):
anniversary of our country. We're the birthplace of America. So
why wouldn't we have something like this to offer all
of these travelers who will be coming in in July,
June and July, you know, for all the events that
are coming up from FIFA to the baseball, you name it,
(20:53):
it's here. And then our big celebration July fourth that
we're going to be hosting the world with. So this
Visitor Center is partnerships with everybody from visit Philadelphia to
the Visitors Center. It is a satellite location that offers
everything that the main location down in Old City in
(21:14):
the Historic Mile has to offer. So if you need
tickets to see the Liberty Bell, if you want to
go to the Betsy Ross House. Anything and everything you could
think of is in that visitor center as well. But
it also shows and gives you the history of our
city when it comes to LGBTQ plus. It is in
(21:37):
the heart of our neighborhood, right on Locust Street, almost
at the corner of Twelfth and Locust. It is so welcoming.
It's actually attached to one of our major restaurant and
bar locations, which is called Knock. Knock has been around
for a very very long time time, and you can
(21:59):
basically go in to Knock and enter into the visitor
center if you'd like, because they're attached but separated. At
the same time, they have a full staff in there
Thursdays through Monday from noon until six. You can go
in there at any time during those days and times
and ask any kind of question about the LGBTQ plus
(22:22):
community and the history that has gone on here in Philadelphia.
They've been educated by a lot of the archivists here
in the city that deal with the LGBTQ plus. That
would also mean William Way Community Center has been involved.
So it's really really a monument and an excitement that
(22:45):
the city hasn't seen in a while and it's really
uplifted us as.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
We talk about history of this city, of this state,
of this country. So often contributors to that history are ignored, erased,
or overlooked. And in this community in Philadelphia, LGBTQ plus
history is fundamental. There are a lot of first that
(23:13):
happened here.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
Right, Yeah, absolutely absolutely. I mean, you know, everyone talks
about Stonewall, Yeah, but Stonewall was really second. Yeah, it
was nineteen sixty nine. It's more about that nineteen. In
nineteen sixty five here in Philadelphia, down in front of
Independence Hall was really held the first protest for the
LGBTQ plus community. Barber Gettings and everybody who marched dressed
(23:40):
up right because they wanted people to see that they're
just like everyone else, right to talk about the rights
that we should have as individuals and as community people,
community leaders. So nineteen sixty five is such an important
time for Philadelphia, and there's a blue historic marker down
(24:02):
there that commemorates it and talks all about it. I
mean the same thing for the first gay bookstore that
has been in existence the longest in the country. So
as Giovanni's Room, YEP at the corner of Pine and
Twelfth right, it's still there. It still exists today, and
there is a blue historic marker there as well that
(24:24):
commemorates that location. The amount of firsts that have happened
here in Philadelphia is unbelievable that people still don't understand
or know all of the history that comes along with it.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah, And I think that's the value of this visitor
center is that not only does it cater to the
LGBTQI plus visitor who's coming in from out of town
or out of the county coming to Philadelphia, but for
those not in the community to come in and see
(24:59):
what's there and what's available and to become educated because
we all need to become educated about everyone's contribution because
as we do that, we get to see each other
more fully.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
Right, absolutely, absolutely, And I mean parents can bring their
kids because there's a lot of kids out there. They
want to feel belonging, right, They want to feel like
there are other people out there like them, and this
is an opportunity for parents to bring their kids down
to learn more about the community and what the community
(25:32):
has to offer. It's not just the history, it's what's
happening right now. Different groups that you can get involved
with or talk with, different events that will be going
on throughout the year that always happen here in Philadelphia
for our community. So it's a meeting place now for people.
It's a starting point for people and everyone and anyone
(25:55):
is welcome. And that's what makes it so great is
that everyone has that opportunity to come and have a conversation,
to come and see what has happened, to come and
experience things that they didn't know existed before, and to
come and connect.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, and as you mentioned earlier, the LGBTQI plus visitors
potentially can be of great benefit to the city of Philadelphia.
There's an enormous amount of buying power in that community,
and let's bring it to Philadelphia. Spend your money. Spend
it on you know, LGBTQI owned businesses, but spend it
(26:37):
on all businesses, because that is what the nature of
visitors coming to Philadelphia. They infuse us with their cash,
their interest in who we are as a city. And
this gives us yet another opportunity to really delve into
the history of Philadelphia because the history encompasses so many
(26:59):
individual rules and groups, and it's important for us to
really understand the variety and the diversity of our country
and of our city. So, Tammy, if people want to
know more information about the Philadelphia Pride Visitor Center, how
do they find out more?
Speaker 6 (27:17):
Sure, they can just go to phl visitor Center dot
com and under that search Pride and it'll pop right up.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yes, and I'll have lots of great resources and information
for you. Tammy Sortman, who is on the committee to
create the Philadelphia Pride Visitors Center and partnership with Visit
Philly and many other organizations. He's also president of the
Washington Square Civic Association and the president of the Philadelphia
Gay Tourism Caucus. Thank you so much for joining us
here today and appreciate you enlightening us about this great
(27:50):
resource for Philadelphia, the Philadelphia Pride Visitor Center.
Speaker 6 (27:53):
Thank you, Dammi, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
You can listen to all of today's interviews on the
iHeartRadio app and podcast platforms by typing in keywords Philadelphia
Community Podcast. Follow me on Instagram and threads at Lorraine
Ballard and Lorraine Moral on TikTok and that's Lorraine with
one R. I'm Lorraine Ballad tomorrow and I stand for
service to our community and media that empowers. What will
you stand for? You've been listening to what's going on,
(28:17):
and thank you
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