April 2, 2021 • 41 mins
Sports consumption is always evolving and that means there's crazy cash being thrown around. Michael McCarthy of Front Office Sports grabs the golden mic to speak with Ben and David about the transitions, rumors, and moves being made in the sports broadcasting landscape.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller
Show weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific. Be
sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show
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(00:21):
think again. He's the last remnants of the old Republic,
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something special. The Fifth Hour with Ben Maller starts right
now in the ale everywhere, back at it again. Another
(00:46):
weekend is upon us. This a spinoff of The Ben
Maller Show heard overnights as you know on Fox Sports Radio,
and we do this every Friday, Saturday and Sunday. This
is the Friday Podcast And doesn't matter whether you're in
the country club or the trailer park, we are here
for you. On the fifth Hour, David Gascon is with us.
(01:09):
Yes for the four O five ras shown that a
cool up I got some raving news. A couple of
days ago before Opening Day in Major League Baseball, that
we have eclipsed the highest downloaded numbers ever in the
history of The Fifth Hour with Ben Maller. And also
(01:31):
the last two or three episodes were higher than any
show you have broadcasted on live radio over the last
year and a half. How about that? How about them apples?
We actually have a live audience. Yeah, but they're not
really alive. They're live, but they're not alive attack. I
mean when they have syringes in their arms or when
they're intoxicated from alcohol. It doesn't really count that we're here. Again,
(01:56):
you're not proving you and I are an elitist loo user.
This could be like this is like Gretzky Curry Magic,
Kareem hers Scheizer's sosha, like this is a good combination.
No it's not, but I listen, I I I'm willing
to hang out with the Hillbillies and the Hoi POLLOI
and all that. And you can hang out and have
(02:16):
cocktails at the at the bar with all the elites. Uh,
that's fine. I am a proud Neanderthal. Anyway, Well, this
is not about us. We will delve into the tremendously
exciting news about the downloads, which we're probably jinks will
go back to zero now, but we we we will
(02:39):
welcome in right now. Guy who I've been an admirer.
I've read his his work for many many years. He's
bounced all over the place. His name is Michael McCarthy.
He's a sports business guy. He's a senior writer at
Front Office Sports dot com. You should check it out.
It's not one of the big corporate run websites. It's
a start up Front Office sports dot com. If you're
(03:00):
into the business of sports. Uh. They do a lot
of good stuff at that website. But Michael McCarthy has
been around. He's worked at the The New York Times,
He's had by lines at the New York Times, Sports
Illustrated us A Today. He's done work for CNBC, The
Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated. He has been all over
the map. He's even done some teaching. Uh. And I'm
(03:23):
sure that will be brought up here at some point.
But let's get into the business of sport. An interesting
conversation on tap here. As sports and television and media
are embedded together, we've certainly learned that more and more
over the last year with it not mattering that fans
(03:44):
are actually at the games are not and the television
money continue to come in. But welcome in, Michael, thank
you for spending some time with us. So the NFL
is the king. It keeps the lights on in these parts,
we like to say. So let's start with the n
f L. And you wrote that. Roger wrote recently, Roger
Udell wants the NFL to generate twenty seven billion dollars
(04:06):
in annual revenue. By It's an amazing number, twenty seven
billion dollars. Obviously, so Michael explained to me how that's
actually gonna work. Okay, yeah, Well, I mean the big
uh money maker for the NFL is obviously TV rights.
(04:28):
I mean, if you look at their recent TV deals,
they're getting something like, you know, four hundred and fifteen billion, uh,
you know, just right off the bat. And they have
the ability to pull out of the deal after seven
years of gambling takes off and go back to the
table too. I think his international expansion. I fully believe
there will be a team in London, in Mexico City, uh,
(04:52):
in an international market for the next five years. You
better believe the NFL looks obviously at how well the
NBA and will BE have done overseas, and they want
some of that for themselves. So do you think they'll
be expansion teams, They're gonna go to thirty four teams,
or they're just going to relocate a couple of teams
that are currently in American cities. It's a great question.
(05:15):
It's tb D. I think it's fifty fifty. I mean,
you know, I could see a team like Jacksonville, which
already has a huge fan base in London. Uh, and
I think that was on purpose, uh, you know, being
transferred over there. I could also see them expanding. What
do I think about the NFL that I've always liked
is they do not sit on their laurels. I mean
(05:36):
like going to seventeen games. I mean, can you imagine
that in baseball below? Oh my god, what will the
throw of the record books? Doesn't care like seventeen games? Yeah, sure,
but just you know, throughout the old record book, I
thought of no One. Yeah, and Michael I. I am
casual friends with Fred Dryer and he told me when
(05:56):
he played in the NFL back in the seventies and
the ease that the owners then wanted an eighteen game schedule.
They they were very passionate about that. And that's over
forty years ago when that was going on. So isn't
this just a temporary stop to eighteen games? Like that,
we're at seventeen for X number of years, But the
(06:19):
goal is to get to eighteen, correct. I think I
totally agree with you. I think the goal is to
get to eighteen. And I think you know, who knows
what the goal will be ten years from now. I mean,
there was one famous NFL g M who said, you know,
where the ranchers, you're the cattle. Uh. And you know
they may say whatever they want publicly, but you know,
two billionaires, they're still the ranchers and the players are
(06:41):
still the cattle. Yeah and yeah, I mean, I'll go
back to what you said. With the possible expansion to
the NFL. It's it's an odd deal because we've established
like there's a certain number, there's this Goldilocks zone of
teams that you can only have a finite amount of
teams in any of these sports leagues. The NFL's got
thirty two, Baseball has got thirty. Uh, it's like right
(07:04):
around that number. But if we were to come back,
you know, two hundred years from now and say sports
is still around in society, is the same relatively, how
many teams do you think there would be? I mean
they've been in that area between twenty thirty two, right
around there for a while. Would we see forty five
(07:24):
fifty teams? I mean, how high giving him go before
it becomes problematic? I think I think you could easily go, uh,
you know, forty teams. Uh. You know, we're talking about
a country that's now over three million people, you know,
a country which is you know, changing demographically, changing racially.
You know, millions upon millions of American citizens are on
(07:48):
the move, creating new suburbs of new mega lot polus
is all over the place. Uh So I mean you
fold the population. Uh. You know, remember about end of
fifteen years ago doing a story for the USA Today,
they sent me out to Las Vegas to do a
what if story? Like what if sports ever gave up
(08:11):
their opposition into gambling? Could sports ever come to Las Vegas?
And it's like that, I think about it, and that
story is a joke, of course, it has you know
what I mean? And you know, you go to the
NFL team the NFL stay to you with the NHL
and everything else. So yeah, I mean I think the
sky the women. Yeah, and uh, I didn't want to
(08:31):
talk to you. I know you've written some about Al
Michaels and the NBC and just the Drew Brees move
and how that all relates. But you know everything that
I've been hearing and reading from guys like yourself there,
it certainly sounds like NBC is planning to, shall I say,
force Al Michaels out after the upcoming season. And if
(08:53):
that is accurate, let's start with that. Is that, if
that's accurate, is this Al's decision or is he gonna
go work somewhere else? Wison called NFL games. Uh hey,
I don't think that's accurate. Al's contract goes through the
two thousand and twenty two Super Bowl in Los Angeles. Um,
and it could uh all be very amicable. You know,
(09:15):
Al is seventy six, seventy seventies old. You might just
decide like Dick Stockin did this week, to say, Okay,
I'm gonna hang up my cleats and hang up my microphone. However,
I think the idea of them forcing Al Michael's out
is a bit overblown. I think, you know, it would
have to be a decision that Al goes along with,
(09:36):
or Al could just pick up his chips and move
to another network. I mean, you've got ESPN and ABC
sitting there in the Super Bowl rotation. Al would look
pretty good in one of those yellow canary yellow ABC
blazers when they do the Super Bowl. NBC would have
to make that decision to be a throwback, absolutely, But
they have brought in Drew Breese and the You don't
(09:59):
bring in a guy like that unless you think that
he's going to be with Obviously he's the analyst. So
does that mean Chris Collinsworth is got one foot out
the door? Yeah? Yeah, Really, we're talking about two different things.
I mean, Mike Tariko is obviously the heir apparent to
Al Michaels, just like he was the heir apparent to
Bob Costas. You know, whether that happens after the next
(10:21):
Super Bowl or not, But Mike Tarrico will eventually call
UH Sunday Night Football. The Drew Brees question, I think
it's more immediate about Chris Collinsworth because you know Drew
Brees is going to come in, as you know, play
by a game analyst on Notre Dame and a studio analyst,
and he could replace Chris Collinsworth. So what we could
(10:44):
be looking at within a couple of years is an
al Michael's Chris Collinsworth booth go into a Mike Tarriko. Uh. Yeah.
The question about Breezes. Everybody assumes he's gonna be great, right,
Tony Romo was great? Great? Now it doesn't work that way.
There's tons of ex athletes and ex coaches who flopped
(11:07):
on TV. I give you Emmett Smith, and you know,
Joe Montana and a bunch of others. So there's no
guarantee that Drew Brees is gonna be great. And if
he isn't great, don't just keep Collinsworth. Yeah, And I
always bring this up on my My Overnight show, Michael,
the quote from Howard Cosell about the jock ocracy of
(11:28):
sports television, And if Howard was still around today, oh
my god, his head would explode from all that. It's
only gotten more pronounced over the years with guys walking
off the field into TV jypt. But Breeze already had
this lined up a couple of years ago with the
Saints he seems. Now, if you were betting man, Michael,
you cover this stuff and you've done this for a
long time to do a great job. But if you
(11:49):
were a betting man, would you bet that Breeze is
good or bad? I think he's gonna be kind of
mediocre because he comes across to me is just too polite.
I think you've got to have a little edge to
you to be good at that. Yeah, I mean just
an interviews and being on the press court with him,
he seems kind of earnest and hard working, you know,
kind of like a you know, a boy scout. He's
(12:10):
gonna go in there and give it are But a
lot of times that doesn't work on TV. Jason Witten
tried that on Moday Night Football. You know, he worked
as hard as anybody, but he was terrible, and you
know he ran back to the NFL. Uh tell you
the truth. I mean, you want to pick a wild
card who could be great on TV? I'm here and
it's Philip Rivers. Uh. You know, if he wants to
(12:31):
do TV, people think he could be the next Dandy
Don He's got that kind of southern charm and he
loves to talk and he loves the bullshit and he
loves to, you know, talk smack, so he could really
do it. But I mean, if I was a betting man,
and I'm not, I you know, would put Breathe down
as being average with potential for good. Michael, speaking of BS,
(12:55):
who I mean outside the National Football who do you
think made out the best with this new your rights
deal with the National Football League? Is it ABC? ESPN?
Is it Amazon? Like? Where do you feel? Because for
as much as we have gone towards the digital realm,
there's still a lot of people that don't access the
Internet in terms of watching content on there, and I
(13:17):
think the Thursday Night package it's been challenging at least
for a lot of people to find the game itself
and then to obviously enjoy it from either an iPad
or a Mac or even a PC. Like, well, who
do you feel made out the best in terms of
network coverage? And then the world is the company? The
world is the company? ABC and ESPN got a Super Bowl,
(13:39):
two Super Bowls ESPN since its founding in nineteen seventy nine,
and a little trailer in uh, you know, an empty
field somewhere in Bristol, Connecticut has dreamed of getting a
Super Bowl. This legitimizes in a way that they've never
been legitimized before. Number two, Monday and Night Football gets
flexible scheduling. How llelujah, we don't have to sit through
(14:02):
these dog games in December with two losing teams. And
I mean that will do huge boos for ESPN's ratings
because right up until now, the only network that has
had flexible scheduling is is NBC for Something and football.
So I think, hands down the winner of this deal
was the Walt Disney Company. And the bigger story here
(14:24):
is the growing alliance between the NFL and Disney. I mean,
these two corporations are becoming joined at the hip. You know,
they're playing at each other like two teenagers in heat.
So you know, right now, Disney, you know what I mean,
is the golden child for the NFL and by stories
and vice versa. Yeah, we haven't seen since the glory
(14:44):
days of Gary Thorne back then with the National Hockey League.
But what gives you the sense that this will work
the second time around with the NHL and ESPN. I
think ESPN, for one thing, really wants it. You know,
these networks have all come around to a signal idea,
which is live game rights are everything. You know, we
(15:07):
in the media are certainly guilty of this, and I'm
certainly guilty of They're talking so much about studio program
first take and you know, skip ballas and all this,
but the network suits, the people who run this business
have come to conclusion that it's all about live game rights.
And you have a sport that with which is one
of the biggest sports in the world. You have a young,
(15:30):
tech savvy UHAD base, and you have a fan base
in the NHL that is rabbit. Yeah, they feel with
justification that they don't get as much attention as the
other sports. And when somebody like ESPN we'll start to
broadcast their games again and talk about it, it will
be a huge boost for the sport. Having said that,
I think we should pour one out for NBC. I
(15:52):
think NBC did a fantastic job of the last ten years.
Innovations like the Winter Classic outdoor Hockey game will go
down in history. They did a wonderful job. Yeah, the
scene in late Todd who was fantastic on that note too,
with live programming, Because Ben and I talked about this
at good length do you think in a way this
also saves the networks because of the program the in
(16:15):
studio programs. You know, they've they've at times gone a
little too controversial or gone political, and that disenfranchises people
from watching their shows. So do you think in a
way that actually saves the networks from having to worry
about any of that other junk that doesn't have to
do with sports specific related material. I believe it too,
(16:36):
And I believe that's a that's a really interesting and
in smart insight. I think, you know, the NFL giving
eleven year deals to traditional linear legacy networks will keep
them in business for the next twenty years where they
might have gone out of business. I mean, somebody used
this comparison. I wish I could remember who, but it
(16:56):
was a great one, which is, uh, sports has become
of a jinga game for TV networks. If you remove
that block, they would crumble into dust. And you know,
through this deal with the NFL, these networks will be
in business, you know, at least for the next eleven years.
And I think that's great. With with the way that
(17:17):
salaries have been thrown out there. I saw this on
on Thursday. You know, George Kittle. His his deal for
this season is guaranteed. He's making a salary just a
hair over eleven million dollars. But it's hard for me
to imagine or to fathom the fact that he's making
eleven million dollars a year. That's a little bit more
than Jim Nats and seven million dollars less or eight
(17:38):
million dollars less than than Tony Romo. Will there ever
be a curve to what these broadcasters are making at
the bigger stages. I don't think so, uh, you know,
And it's a it's a great question because there was
a time when John Madden made more than any player
in the NFL. Think about that. John Madden was so
big as a broadcasters he made more money any single
(18:01):
NFL player, Joe Montana or whatever. But as far as
the Tony Romo thing, I'm already seen a big backlash
against that, uh, you know, naturally after Tony Romo got
that contract, and congratulations Tony Romo because it's great, but
you know, everybody who's an A list talent said I
want Tony ronoand money. Uh. And you know, I mean
networks are already fighting back hard. They're saying, you know, Look,
(18:24):
this guy's a unicorn. You know, he had the right timing.
All this happened before the pandemic. He had the Super
Bowl coming up. So I don't think we'll ever see that.
I mean, the way these revenues keep exploding for the
NBA and the NFL, and the players make anywhere between
forty that I don't think you'll ever see announcers equaling
(18:44):
the pay of broadcasts, I mean equaling the pay of players. Well, Michael,
as far as it's just a general censor of these
networks and you're talking about keeping them in business. I
had a buddy that worked at ABC back when they
had money Night Football originally back and near the end
of the run, and they were losing money. It was
a loss leader. I can't imagine they're making money now
(19:06):
with the money that's being paid for these rights. Is
that still the case? And how much do you think
they're actually losing on these TV deals. I don't think
it's the case that they're all losing money like the
way that you SA Remember I covered that era too,
and that's a great point. You know, one of the
reasons why CBS, you know, got out of the NFL business.
They were losing money. You remember, I think the networks
(19:29):
have come to this conclusion they're gonna lose a hell
of a lot more without the NFL than they would
with the NFL. And if you've got the playoffs, and
you've got the conference championships, and you've got the Super Bowl,
which prints money, you could even make money. Uh. But
it's still a dynamic that's at work. I mean, one
(19:50):
of the reasons why the Linear Network shunned Thurst Football
it was it was just hard to make money on it.
You to share it with NFL network, you gotta share
it with the local broadcasters, you've got share it with Amazon.
And you know, they just said we're out. But I
think you know what I mean that there still is
a huge opportunity to make money with the NFL. If
(20:11):
there wasn't, they wouldn't be in business with them. Be
sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show
weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific. Be sure
to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show weekdays
at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports
Radio and the I Heart Radio app. How concerning is
it though, with people moving to streaming now getting ray
(20:32):
away from the satellite cable, more and more people cutting
the cord and you can watch everything online and streaming
and everyone, Michael, as you know, should pay the rights
fees for the packages. But a lot of people are
on the pirate ship, and there are ways you can
watch many of these games without actually having to pay
for them. So how much danger do you think that
(20:54):
is to the business model of the NFL and just
sports in general, which is so depending on people paying
extra to watch the games. I think it's a huge threat.
I teach it Rutgers and sports sports journalism there for
five years, and when I talked to these eighteen ninety one,
(21:14):
the woral of students they just don't watch TV anymore.
They watch everything on demand, when and how they wanted.
So it's a huge threat of a piracy. These new
consumers who were tech savvy getting getting the product without
paying for it, or two just dropping out of the
habit of live sports. Um, you know, they didn't grow
(21:37):
up like we grew up, where it's like, oh, the
Yankee game is on at seven and I'm gonna spend
three hours watching this. They don't think like that. They
think I'll watch it on my phone, or I'll just
watch the highlights, or I'll just go to house the
highlights and I'll see the clips and the in That
is a huge problem, and I think that's why you're
seeing the network and the NFL working so hard to
(21:58):
try to attract young reviewers with everything from that, you know, uh,
that crazy Nickelodeon game with the slime to Mega cast
everything else. Michael, Back in the nineties, I used to
love the NFL and NBC and the NBA on NBC.
I don't know if it was because of the broadcasters,
because the music, because t is all of it right, Um, Like,
(22:22):
what would you put up there as pound for pound
the best product right now on television? And I mean
everything Like the UFC two sixty last week was was great.
Obviously they had Fight Island. Uh, the Olympic coverage with NBC, NFL, NBA.
Like where do you fit in all of this? Like
who do you think has the best product pound for
pound for a particular sport? Oh? And that's a great question,
(22:46):
because yeah, I mean like you, I mean, I love
Round Bull Rock and NBC and that those great NBA games.
I mean, if I had to pick a league that
you know, it has the best product, best television product.
It's handed down the NFL. Um you know, the Fox
and CBS games on Sunday afternoon are the single most
(23:08):
watched games of the week and every single week. And
NBC Saturday Night Football is the single most watched program
in prime time for ten years in a row. I
mean the old Rectord was five years and that was
a gun, smoke and all in the family. Just ten
years in a row. It bores away everything Drava scripted comedies,
(23:31):
reality football football number one. I mean, the football product
is so so good that it's going to be a
challenge for them to get viewers back in the stadium
when you've got such a great television product, I say,
you know, the NBA Olympic NBC's Olympic coverage is just
outstanding and beautiful and it moves you, uh in such
(23:55):
a way that's you know, it's incredible. And then you
have the ESPN which does just, you know, just to
such a great job on college sports, and the NFL
and the NBA and MLB. I mean, I can go
on and on, but you know they're the king of
luck coverage. Yeah, Michael you know, during the pandemic when
there were no sports for a hundred and thirty four days.
(24:16):
Last year, I fell into the rabbit hole on YouTube
of watching random old games. So I realized that this
is merely for me nostalgia. But there are so many
channels hidden on YouTube that just broadcast random Monday night
baseball games with Keith Jackson and Cosell back in that
(24:36):
year and whatnot. It is, it is, it is wild.
It's a it's a gold mine. You see how sports
television has changed. Uh? And are those allowed though? I
mean it seems like those are still. How long does
the trademark last? How long does the copyright last? It's
I love it. I hope it doesn't go away. But
I I'm fascinated that they can put a three hour
(24:57):
random you know, Yankee Tiger game from on YouTube and
not get in trouble. For I know, it's like bringing
back ESPN Classic, remember that network. Yes, yes, go back
and watching teams and the announcers. Uh, you grow up,
you grow up with I mean with you. I love
you know, going back into the time capsule and you
(25:18):
know feeling you know, twelve beforeteen again, you know, watching
the Yankees in the World Series or whatever it was.
But I think there's those games also have a shelf life.
I mean I remember doing this story exactly. I don't
know it was a year ago, but just about a
year ago, you know, during the pandemic. It every single
network I talked to, from ESPN to the regionals were
(25:41):
bringing out classic programming. Right, So if you were in Detroit,
you saw the bird Federich, if you were in New
York you saw or you know, Reggie Jackson, you know,
or if you were in l A, you know, you'd
see Fernando and what they found that after about a
week of that, people stopped watching. I think got a
little dose like this is great, and then they stopped.
(26:04):
And the reason they stopped because it just doesn't have
the power in the attraction of a live game. A
live game where you don't know who's gonna win, where
you don't know what's gonna happen when you're anticipating next
grade game is the single greatest reality at the tavement
in the world. And you can't replace that. No, I
agree with you and I but I usually when I'm watching,
I'll be like doing so I'll be on the treadmill
(26:25):
and I'll stumble into a like a game, and they
don't usually put the score up, but I would agree
if you know the outcome of the game, like big
playoff games, and you know what's gonna happen. But some
of these, like I would watch him when I was
a kid, these Monday night baseball games, and I don't remember,
you know, a random Brewers game against whoever. So it's
a it is unique that way. Now I wanted to
(26:45):
move on. How about this Jim Nance story. I know
you've covered this here. Jim Nancy was supposedly a free agent,
was appending free agent. He was still with CBS. Obviously
he resigned. Uh And I had heard whispers and can
you confirm it tonight that Jim Nay was so he's
so in with the Masters people that if he had
actually left CBS, they would have taken the Masters TV
(27:08):
deal with him. Is that? Does that have any kernel
of truth to it? You know I had heard the
same rumor. I was never able to pin it down.
I mean, he is synonymous with the Masters, his voice,
his face, and the Masters does whatever they want. I mean,
what's amazing is you know these people who run out
(27:30):
got the national they don't follow the rules like everybody else.
I mean, they've had CBS on a one year deal
for fifty years. Can you imagine you Maaster been a
network was on a one year contract for fifty plus years.
So I mean, is that possible. I wasn't able to
pin it down enough to you know, to report that,
(27:50):
but yeah, I think it's possible. They love dance, and
Nance loves the Masters, and nances on record saying he
wants to call the Masters to least seventy five years old,
which is another fourteen years or so. So you know,
Nan to me is you know what I mean, one
of the you know, the four or five top talents
in the whole industry. And he means a lot to
(28:12):
the players, I mean to the members who run that club,
and you know what I mean, And they do have options.
I mean you're telling me, wouldn't NBC wouldn't love to
get their hands on the Masters. ESPN's got the early rounds,
Now what would they give for all four rounds for
the Masters? So yeah, I mean the Nance negotiation was fascinating. Um,
you know, he was, you know, this guy who everybody
(28:34):
sees as a lifer, But look this is business. I mean,
remember we grew up with John Madden, Madden word for
all four networks, right, yeah, yeah, just this is business.
You know. So if if Jim Nance had the opportunity
to move to a bunch better job where he would
be happier and more respected, I think he could have
(28:58):
been would have the fact that CBS recognized that recognized
how valuable he is, and he recognized how happy he is.
It is CBS worked out to a good conclusion. Michael,
speaking of golf um coverage over the last week, maybe
week and a half, about what's going on in in
Georgia with Major League Baseball and Dave Roberts had made
(29:20):
some comments out here in Los Angeles. What are you
hearing about Major League Baseball their stance on the All
Star Game in Atlanta? And do you think that we'll
see more of this? And if so, which what do
you think the wind blows? Do you think this would
be a huge lift or do you think this would
be a huge blowback if major League clubs or leagues
(29:43):
themselves take a stance against certain states legislators, governors and
how they operate their states respectively. Yeah, I think you
know the first question I think absolutely, we're gonna see
sports and politics in twined. Even more, you're gonna have
you know, groups and political parties across the aisle, you know,
(30:05):
weighing in. You know what I mean, for sports to
do this, to do that because of political reasons. I mean,
Joe Biden was on ESPN the other night, you know,
speaking out about it. So I think that you know,
horses out of the barn. You know, the idea that
you know who sports and politics shouldn't forget it, that
you know that that auguments over However, you know what
I mean, And one of the few people in the
(30:25):
media who is willing to say this, I do think
there's blown back from it. I do think when you
mingle sports and politics, anytime you delve into politics as
corporation or corporate entity, you risk alienating half the audience.
You get the people who who agree with you to
support you, and the people who don't agree with you,
we're not going to support you. And I think there
(30:46):
was a recent surveying, and like the last week or
two ago that said, you know, viewers have stopped watching
certain sports or stopped participating as much being a sports
fan because they were sick of the creeping uh intrusion
of Paul Fix into sports. So I expected to continue,
and I expect it to be blowback. If there's one
league out there that you think won't actually go down
(31:08):
or even rise up to the third rail into any
of this, what lead do you think that is NFL?
Um You know, when you look at the NFL there
their seasonal audience has dropped eight percent this year. Now
that's not as bad as you know, ten percent dropped
a couple of years ago, but I mean you compare
it to you know, some of the forty drops to
(31:29):
the NBA finals in Kentucky, Derby and Danley had finals
and in baseball and you know what I mean. So
if there's one uh sports league that's still bulletproof against that, uh,
it's the NFL. And you know, and to the point
about blowback also, I think the league's recognize this. I mean,
you know, Adam Silver has come out and said they're
(31:51):
going to tone down the politics. You know this season.
You know, we're gonna remove you know, all the banners
and the signs from player jerseys and courtside that you
know that the league is you know, very you know,
confident that they made their point, you know, during a
very important part of American history, and and now they
want to just go on and play. But you know,
like you say, sports can't hide anymore. You know, when
(32:14):
when Joe Biden has been in office for a month,
you know, gets up and start saying, you know, sports
should do this or that, or Trump is from the
bully pulpit on Twitter, you know, criticizing ESPN. There's no
escaping anymore. Yeah. I just have a hard time listening
to either coaches or managers or even players to that matter,
that don't read everything that has to go on, like
(32:37):
with a bill or with any kind of legislation that's
being presented. I have a hard time listening and and
respecting that when they're dedicated their life to their profession.
So how can you be so invested in your craft
and what you're doing and plus your celebrity status, they
all of a sudden you you venture into what's happening
on the opposite side of the country. Uh, in a city,
(33:00):
you're in a state or something like that. It just
doesn't add up for me. Well, what what it adds
up as to an insufferability factor? You know, a TV
viewers and Americans are you know, tired of rich, insufferable
Hollywood celebrities lecturing them how to live their lives. And
we're getting dangerously close to that with sports to you
(33:21):
have athletes who are making you know, heads of billions
of dollars, you know, lecturing you know, people who are
trying to you know, make ends meet week to week,
month to month, and it's kind of like, hey, you know,
the high ground gets kind of you know, the moral
high ground gets kind of slippery, particularly when you're not
saying the same thing about China in other countries. You're
just criticizing our own country. So they really got to
(33:44):
watch that where you know what I mean, they don't
have make create a basic disconnect between them and the
fans that supports them. Yeah, and I think it cuts
both ways. Michael, mean, it seems like this, you know,
politics and sports is really a democratic issue. There's no
to my knowledge, there's no sports leagues that are of
a republican based dogma. Uh And can you imagine if
(34:07):
one of the sports leagues took a position on the
other side, people's heads would explode there also, But I
think it's just the case and we as you said,
you referenced that study, and that's a great study that
just came out within the last like ten days or so,
and it was across the board, Michael. It wasn't just Republicans,
it was Democrats and independence were watching less sports because
(34:28):
of this nuts And how much coverage did you see that?
Very little? And I'll tell you why, because most of
the sports media is in favor of athletes being activists.
They're in favor of sports leagues being activists. They're in
favor of sports playing a role, uh in the political debate.
So I mean, I think there's some some narrative building
(34:49):
at work too, where you know what I mean, the
sports media is going to cover something if it fits
with their narrative, but they're not going to cover it
if it doesn't. And certainly that study did not go
with their narrative. So are you still you You mentioned
you you were at Rutgers. Are you still doing some
stuff at Rutgers now? Or is that in the past.
I'm not teaching uh this semester, but I've been an
(35:10):
adjunct professor there for five years. Loved it, great school.
I taught Multibedia Sports Reporting UM, which is basically I
think the only sports reporting anymore. You know, the idea
of you know, people being segmented by media, you know,
it doesn't exist anymore where you're just printed through, you're
just radio, you're just you know, everybody does everything now. Yeah,
(35:34):
absolutely absolutely, Yuh. I also what we have you I
wanted to bring up the story and you you had
some stuff I saw about this. Uh, the Athletic, which
has been around for a few years now, has some
big time players in sports, you know, sports writing. Got
some legendary figures there that right at the Athletic behind
the paywall, and there was there's been some talk that
(35:55):
they're gonna merge with Axios, the which I think of
as a political operation. There is this bad news for
the athletic or is this good news for the athletic
if they end up merging. I actually think it's it's
good news for the athletic because you know, the Athletic, uh,
you know went from being the place where everybody want
(36:15):
to work, you know, two or three years ago to
kind of you know struggling for the subscribers and you
know they don't accept the add so you know, that's
a whole huge stigin of money that's just turned off
U and newsletters right now with the hot thing. We're
a newsletter company, you know, Front Office Sports has five newsletters,
was born the way, and we are growing like a weed.
(36:38):
So I mean, for them to link up with a
company like that that is heading north, I think it's
great for the athletic and it's great for journalism because
I want to see journalists employed. It breaks my heart
when I see folks losing their jobs, you know, because
the corporate entities that manage them don't know what the
hell they're doing. So I mean, you know, to me,
whatever is good for the athletic is good for the industry.
(37:00):
But Michael, on that note, with what you have experienced,
what you have done, and now what you see in
today's world, do you think there are more or less
qualified journalists in the sports market, Because it feels like
to me, especially when it comes to a local level,
that they're not necessarily journalists. They are just an extension
(37:20):
of the pr machine of that team or that league. Yeah,
I think it's clearly less. Uh, you know, you can't
lay off you know, thousands upon thousands of train qualified
sports journalists over the last ten years and not having
the impact on your business. I mean even just watching
TV or going on websites. I'm saying basic mistakes that
(37:42):
you never used to see. You know why is that? Well,
who were the first people that got rid of a right?
You know, if you worked in a newspaper or magazine
like I did, you know you knew the copy editors.
They were usually you know, kind of weird, you know,
kind of indio synchrome, you know, neurotic, introversial. You know,
(38:04):
they studied you know, English folklore or something. But they
would save your butt come crunch time, you know what
I mean. They would find the mistakes, or they would
ask the questions, or they would ride your ass, you know,
to make sure you got it right. And when they
took kind of you know, the first thing they wiped
out is that kind of safety layer. So I mean,
I think that as much as anything else has hurt,
you know, the quality of the product. Well that not
(38:26):
only that, but also the influence from teams or from
from professional leagues, because god forbid, you criticize a team
a player, and they'll light you up, or they'll just
want to allow you inside the locker room anymore, grant
you interview requests. I mean new York can get away
with it because you got eighteen twenty people on a
New York Yankees beat, you know, the Jets, the Giants,
(38:47):
things of that nature. But there's not a lot of
hard hitting markets out there anymore that allow their journalists
to attack and to criticize and to critique the talent
or the management. It's a great point. I mean, as
the saw is of newspapers and their influence wings, you know,
the power of the league's and particularly teams increases. I
(39:08):
see it really at the college level. Uh, you know,
these college programs could free you out if coach doesn't
like what you wrote. You know, and you know, and
there's no respect anymore for that kind of line between
what journalists have to do and what uh colleges and
sports leagues have to do. So yeah, that that's a
real problem. What you need is people who are going
(39:31):
to support you when that phone call comes from you know,
the GM or the coach or the president of the school.
You need somebody who's going to have your back, not
somebody's gonna throw you under the bus, you know, Michael,
just we gotta wrap this up. But I just following
up that train of thought here, I know, I've done
sports radio a long time, and I have noticed over
(39:52):
the years when you're critical that there were people that
love that. Now, I feel like over the last like
five ten years, I'm not sure when exactly it started.
It's like many people can't handle They want you to
only say nice things about the athletes they like and
the players they like. It's a very odd change that
has taken place. I don't know if you've noticed that,
(40:12):
but I have. My theory is it's because of like
MLB dot com NFL dot com. They get the watered
down story. But it seems like many many younger fans
do not want negativity with their sports coverage. It's very
odd to me. Have you noticed that at all? It
(40:32):
is very odd. It's like, you know, you're supposed to
be a cheerleader, which is the exact opposite of what
being the journalist is. You know what I mean. You
know you're supposed to be yeah, and you know, if
somebody does something great, you know, do it. I mean,
that's one of the things I've always respected about the
NFL is the big boys and girls. When it comes
to this, you know you're gonna rip them. You're gonna
criticize them, you know what I mean, they'll they'll take
(40:53):
it and move on. But you're right, some of the
smaller outfits are so uh, you know, sensitive to critics, schism,
and you know they have these you know, fanboy basis
on Twitter. You know what I mean? Would you move
into action? You know what I mean before you know,
be ratio. So yeah, I think I think it is
(41:17):
a problem, but I think it's about the growing polarization
of the country. If you look at politics, we used
to be able to talk as the country. We used
to be able to come together. Now it's like you've
got to pick a side and the other side of evil. Yeah,
I completely agree, Michael Tremaneus. We could do like another
hour and a half, but we'll let you go. And
I appreciate that. And again, if you want to read
(41:38):
more of Michael, it's Front Office Sports dot com and
how can people find you on Twitter? There, Michael, my
handle is m McCarthy rent at Twitter, And uh, I
appreciate the invite. I really enjoyed the conversation.
Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller
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for you. On the fifth Hour, David Gascon is with us.
(01:09):
Yes for the four O five ras shown that a
cool up I got some raving news. A couple of
days ago before Opening Day in Major League Baseball, that
we have eclipsed the highest downloaded numbers ever in the
history of The Fifth Hour with Ben Maller. And also
(01:31):
the last two or three episodes were higher than any
show you have broadcasted on live radio over the last
year and a half. How about that? How about them apples?
We actually have a live audience. Yeah, but they're not
really alive. They're live, but they're not alive attack. I
mean when they have syringes in their arms or when
they're intoxicated from alcohol. It doesn't really count that we're here. Again,
(01:56):
you're not proving you and I are an elitist loo user.
This could be like this is like Gretzky Curry Magic,
Kareem hers Scheizer's sosha, like this is a good combination.
No it's not, but I listen, I I I'm willing
to hang out with the Hillbillies and the Hoi POLLOI
and all that. And you can hang out and have
(02:16):
cocktails at the at the bar with all the elites. Uh,
that's fine. I am a proud Neanderthal. Anyway, Well, this
is not about us. We will delve into the tremendously
exciting news about the downloads, which we're probably jinks will
go back to zero now, but we we we will
(02:39):
welcome in right now. Guy who I've been an admirer.
I've read his his work for many many years. He's
bounced all over the place. His name is Michael McCarthy.
He's a sports business guy. He's a senior writer at
Front Office Sports dot com. You should check it out.
It's not one of the big corporate run websites. It's
a start up Front Office sports dot com. If you're
(03:00):
into the business of sports. Uh. They do a lot
of good stuff at that website. But Michael McCarthy has
been around. He's worked at the The New York Times,
He's had by lines at the New York Times, Sports
Illustrated us A Today. He's done work for CNBC, The
Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated. He has been all over
the map. He's even done some teaching. Uh. And I'm
(03:23):
sure that will be brought up here at some point.
But let's get into the business of sport. An interesting
conversation on tap here. As sports and television and media
are embedded together, we've certainly learned that more and more
over the last year with it not mattering that fans
(03:44):
are actually at the games are not and the television
money continue to come in. But welcome in, Michael, thank
you for spending some time with us. So the NFL
is the king. It keeps the lights on in these parts,
we like to say. So let's start with the n
f L. And you wrote that. Roger wrote recently, Roger
Udell wants the NFL to generate twenty seven billion dollars
(04:06):
in annual revenue. By It's an amazing number, twenty seven
billion dollars. Obviously, so Michael explained to me how that's
actually gonna work. Okay, yeah, Well, I mean the big
uh money maker for the NFL is obviously TV rights.
(04:28):
I mean, if you look at their recent TV deals,
they're getting something like, you know, four hundred and fifteen billion, uh,
you know, just right off the bat. And they have
the ability to pull out of the deal after seven
years of gambling takes off and go back to the
table too. I think his international expansion. I fully believe
there will be a team in London, in Mexico City, uh,
(04:52):
in an international market for the next five years. You
better believe the NFL looks obviously at how well the
NBA and will BE have done overseas, and they want
some of that for themselves. So do you think they'll
be expansion teams, They're gonna go to thirty four teams,
or they're just going to relocate a couple of teams
that are currently in American cities. It's a great question.
(05:15):
It's tb D. I think it's fifty fifty. I mean,
you know, I could see a team like Jacksonville, which
already has a huge fan base in London. Uh, and
I think that was on purpose, uh, you know, being
transferred over there. I could also see them expanding. What
do I think about the NFL that I've always liked
is they do not sit on their laurels. I mean
(05:36):
like going to seventeen games. I mean, can you imagine
that in baseball below? Oh my god, what will the
throw of the record books? Doesn't care like seventeen games? Yeah, sure,
but just you know, throughout the old record book, I
thought of no One. Yeah, and Michael I. I am
casual friends with Fred Dryer and he told me when
(05:56):
he played in the NFL back in the seventies and
the ease that the owners then wanted an eighteen game schedule.
They they were very passionate about that. And that's over
forty years ago when that was going on. So isn't
this just a temporary stop to eighteen games? Like that,
we're at seventeen for X number of years, But the
(06:19):
goal is to get to eighteen, correct. I think I
totally agree with you. I think the goal is to
get to eighteen. And I think you know, who knows
what the goal will be ten years from now. I mean,
there was one famous NFL g M who said, you know,
where the ranchers, you're the cattle. Uh. And you know
they may say whatever they want publicly, but you know,
two billionaires, they're still the ranchers and the players are
(06:41):
still the cattle. Yeah and yeah, I mean, I'll go
back to what you said. With the possible expansion to
the NFL. It's it's an odd deal because we've established
like there's a certain number, there's this Goldilocks zone of
teams that you can only have a finite amount of
teams in any of these sports leagues. The NFL's got
thirty two, Baseball has got thirty. Uh, it's like right
(07:04):
around that number. But if we were to come back,
you know, two hundred years from now and say sports
is still around in society, is the same relatively, how
many teams do you think there would be? I mean
they've been in that area between twenty thirty two, right
around there for a while. Would we see forty five
(07:24):
fifty teams? I mean, how high giving him go before
it becomes problematic? I think I think you could easily go, uh,
you know, forty teams. Uh. You know, we're talking about
a country that's now over three million people, you know,
a country which is you know, changing demographically, changing racially.
You know, millions upon millions of American citizens are on
(07:48):
the move, creating new suburbs of new mega lot polus
is all over the place. Uh So I mean you
fold the population. Uh. You know, remember about end of
fifteen years ago doing a story for the USA Today,
they sent me out to Las Vegas to do a
what if story? Like what if sports ever gave up
(08:11):
their opposition into gambling? Could sports ever come to Las Vegas?
And it's like that, I think about it, and that
story is a joke, of course, it has you know
what I mean? And you know, you go to the
NFL team the NFL stay to you with the NHL
and everything else. So yeah, I mean I think the
sky the women. Yeah, and uh, I didn't want to
(08:31):
talk to you. I know you've written some about Al
Michaels and the NBC and just the Drew Brees move
and how that all relates. But you know everything that
I've been hearing and reading from guys like yourself there,
it certainly sounds like NBC is planning to, shall I say,
force Al Michaels out after the upcoming season. And if
(08:53):
that is accurate, let's start with that. Is that, if
that's accurate, is this Al's decision or is he gonna
go work somewhere else? Wison called NFL games. Uh hey,
I don't think that's accurate. Al's contract goes through the
two thousand and twenty two Super Bowl in Los Angeles. Um,
and it could uh all be very amicable. You know,
(09:15):
Al is seventy six, seventy seventies old. You might just
decide like Dick Stockin did this week, to say, Okay,
I'm gonna hang up my cleats and hang up my microphone. However,
I think the idea of them forcing Al Michael's out
is a bit overblown. I think, you know, it would
have to be a decision that Al goes along with,
(09:36):
or Al could just pick up his chips and move
to another network. I mean, you've got ESPN and ABC
sitting there in the Super Bowl rotation. Al would look
pretty good in one of those yellow canary yellow ABC
blazers when they do the Super Bowl. NBC would have
to make that decision to be a throwback, absolutely, But
they have brought in Drew Breese and the You don't
(09:59):
bring in a guy like that unless you think that
he's going to be with Obviously he's the analyst. So
does that mean Chris Collinsworth is got one foot out
the door? Yeah? Yeah, Really, we're talking about two different things.
I mean, Mike Tariko is obviously the heir apparent to
Al Michaels, just like he was the heir apparent to
Bob Costas. You know, whether that happens after the next
(10:21):
Super Bowl or not, But Mike Tarrico will eventually call
UH Sunday Night Football. The Drew Brees question, I think
it's more immediate about Chris Collinsworth because you know Drew
Brees is going to come in, as you know, play
by a game analyst on Notre Dame and a studio analyst,
and he could replace Chris Collinsworth. So what we could
(10:44):
be looking at within a couple of years is an
al Michael's Chris Collinsworth booth go into a Mike Tarriko. Uh. Yeah.
The question about Breezes. Everybody assumes he's gonna be great, right,
Tony Romo was great? Great? Now it doesn't work that way.
There's tons of ex athletes and ex coaches who flopped
(11:07):
on TV. I give you Emmett Smith, and you know,
Joe Montana and a bunch of others. So there's no
guarantee that Drew Brees is gonna be great. And if
he isn't great, don't just keep Collinsworth. Yeah, And I
always bring this up on my My Overnight show, Michael,
the quote from Howard Cosell about the jock ocracy of
(11:28):
sports television, And if Howard was still around today, oh
my god, his head would explode from all that. It's
only gotten more pronounced over the years with guys walking
off the field into TV jypt. But Breeze already had
this lined up a couple of years ago with the
Saints he seems. Now, if you were betting man, Michael,
you cover this stuff and you've done this for a
long time to do a great job. But if you
(11:49):
were a betting man, would you bet that Breeze is
good or bad? I think he's gonna be kind of
mediocre because he comes across to me is just too polite.
I think you've got to have a little edge to
you to be good at that. Yeah, I mean just
an interviews and being on the press court with him,
he seems kind of earnest and hard working, you know,
kind of like a you know, a boy scout. He's
(12:10):
gonna go in there and give it are But a
lot of times that doesn't work on TV. Jason Witten
tried that on Moday Night Football. You know, he worked
as hard as anybody, but he was terrible, and you
know he ran back to the NFL. Uh tell you
the truth. I mean, you want to pick a wild
card who could be great on TV? I'm here and
it's Philip Rivers. Uh. You know, if he wants to
(12:31):
do TV, people think he could be the next Dandy
Don He's got that kind of southern charm and he
loves to talk and he loves the bullshit and he
loves to, you know, talk smack, so he could really
do it. But I mean, if I was a betting man,
and I'm not, I you know, would put Breathe down
as being average with potential for good. Michael, speaking of BS,
(12:55):
who I mean outside the National Football who do you
think made out the best with this new your rights
deal with the National Football League? Is it ABC? ESPN?
Is it Amazon? Like? Where do you feel? Because for
as much as we have gone towards the digital realm,
there's still a lot of people that don't access the
Internet in terms of watching content on there, and I
(13:17):
think the Thursday Night package it's been challenging at least
for a lot of people to find the game itself
and then to obviously enjoy it from either an iPad
or a Mac or even a PC. Like, well, who
do you feel made out the best in terms of
network coverage? And then the world is the company? The
world is the company? ABC and ESPN got a Super Bowl,
(13:39):
two Super Bowls ESPN since its founding in nineteen seventy nine,
and a little trailer in uh, you know, an empty
field somewhere in Bristol, Connecticut has dreamed of getting a
Super Bowl. This legitimizes in a way that they've never
been legitimized before. Number two, Monday and Night Football gets
flexible scheduling. How llelujah, we don't have to sit through
(14:02):
these dog games in December with two losing teams. And
I mean that will do huge boos for ESPN's ratings
because right up until now, the only network that has
had flexible scheduling is is NBC for Something and football.
So I think, hands down the winner of this deal
was the Walt Disney Company. And the bigger story here
(14:24):
is the growing alliance between the NFL and Disney. I mean,
these two corporations are becoming joined at the hip. You know,
they're playing at each other like two teenagers in heat.
So you know, right now, Disney, you know what I mean,
is the golden child for the NFL and by stories
and vice versa. Yeah, we haven't seen since the glory
(14:44):
days of Gary Thorne back then with the National Hockey League.
But what gives you the sense that this will work
the second time around with the NHL and ESPN. I
think ESPN, for one thing, really wants it. You know,
these networks have all come around to a signal idea,
which is live game rights are everything. You know, we
(15:07):
in the media are certainly guilty of this, and I'm
certainly guilty of They're talking so much about studio program
first take and you know, skip ballas and all this,
but the network suits, the people who run this business
have come to conclusion that it's all about live game rights.
And you have a sport that with which is one
of the biggest sports in the world. You have a young,
(15:30):
tech savvy UHAD base, and you have a fan base
in the NHL that is rabbit. Yeah, they feel with
justification that they don't get as much attention as the
other sports. And when somebody like ESPN we'll start to
broadcast their games again and talk about it, it will
be a huge boost for the sport. Having said that,
I think we should pour one out for NBC. I
(15:52):
think NBC did a fantastic job of the last ten years.
Innovations like the Winter Classic outdoor Hockey game will go
down in history. They did a wonderful job. Yeah, the
scene in late Todd who was fantastic on that note too,
with live programming, Because Ben and I talked about this
at good length do you think in a way this
also saves the networks because of the program the in
(16:15):
studio programs. You know, they've they've at times gone a
little too controversial or gone political, and that disenfranchises people
from watching their shows. So do you think in a
way that actually saves the networks from having to worry
about any of that other junk that doesn't have to
do with sports specific related material. I believe it too,
(16:36):
And I believe that's a that's a really interesting and
in smart insight. I think, you know, the NFL giving
eleven year deals to traditional linear legacy networks will keep
them in business for the next twenty years where they
might have gone out of business. I mean, somebody used
this comparison. I wish I could remember who, but it
(16:56):
was a great one, which is, uh, sports has become
of a jinga game for TV networks. If you remove
that block, they would crumble into dust. And you know,
through this deal with the NFL, these networks will be
in business, you know, at least for the next eleven years.
And I think that's great. With with the way that
(17:17):
salaries have been thrown out there. I saw this on
on Thursday. You know, George Kittle. His his deal for
this season is guaranteed. He's making a salary just a
hair over eleven million dollars. But it's hard for me
to imagine or to fathom the fact that he's making
eleven million dollars a year. That's a little bit more
than Jim Nats and seven million dollars less or eight
(17:38):
million dollars less than than Tony Romo. Will there ever
be a curve to what these broadcasters are making at
the bigger stages. I don't think so, uh, you know,
And it's a it's a great question because there was
a time when John Madden made more than any player
in the NFL. Think about that. John Madden was so
big as a broadcasters he made more money any single
(18:01):
NFL player, Joe Montana or whatever. But as far as
the Tony Romo thing, I'm already seen a big backlash
against that, uh, you know, naturally after Tony Romo got
that contract, and congratulations Tony Romo because it's great, but
you know, everybody who's an A list talent said I
want Tony ronoand money. Uh. And you know, I mean
networks are already fighting back hard. They're saying, you know, Look,
(18:24):
this guy's a unicorn. You know, he had the right timing.
All this happened before the pandemic. He had the Super
Bowl coming up. So I don't think we'll ever see that.
I mean, the way these revenues keep exploding for the
NBA and the NFL, and the players make anywhere between
forty that I don't think you'll ever see announcers equaling
(18:44):
the pay of broadcasts, I mean equaling the pay of players. Well, Michael,
as far as it's just a general censor of these
networks and you're talking about keeping them in business. I
had a buddy that worked at ABC back when they
had money Night Football originally back and near the end
of the run, and they were losing money. It was
a loss leader. I can't imagine they're making money now
(19:06):
with the money that's being paid for these rights. Is
that still the case? And how much do you think
they're actually losing on these TV deals. I don't think
it's the case that they're all losing money like the
way that you SA Remember I covered that era too,
and that's a great point. You know, one of the
reasons why CBS, you know, got out of the NFL business.
They were losing money. You remember, I think the networks
(19:29):
have come to this conclusion they're gonna lose a hell
of a lot more without the NFL than they would
with the NFL. And if you've got the playoffs, and
you've got the conference championships, and you've got the Super Bowl,
which prints money, you could even make money. Uh. But
it's still a dynamic that's at work. I mean, one
(19:50):
of the reasons why the Linear Network shunned Thurst Football
it was it was just hard to make money on it.
You to share it with NFL network, you gotta share
it with the local broadcasters, you've got share it with Amazon.
And you know, they just said we're out. But I
think you know what I mean that there still is
a huge opportunity to make money with the NFL. If
(20:11):
there wasn't, they wouldn't be in business with them. Be
sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show
weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific. Be sure
to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show weekdays
at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports
Radio and the I Heart Radio app. How concerning is
it though, with people moving to streaming now getting ray
(20:32):
away from the satellite cable, more and more people cutting
the cord and you can watch everything online and streaming
and everyone, Michael, as you know, should pay the rights
fees for the packages. But a lot of people are
on the pirate ship, and there are ways you can
watch many of these games without actually having to pay
for them. So how much danger do you think that
(20:54):
is to the business model of the NFL and just
sports in general, which is so depending on people paying
extra to watch the games. I think it's a huge threat.
I teach it Rutgers and sports sports journalism there for
five years, and when I talked to these eighteen ninety one,
(21:14):
the woral of students they just don't watch TV anymore.
They watch everything on demand, when and how they wanted.
So it's a huge threat of a piracy. These new
consumers who were tech savvy getting getting the product without
paying for it, or two just dropping out of the
habit of live sports. Um, you know, they didn't grow
(21:37):
up like we grew up, where it's like, oh, the
Yankee game is on at seven and I'm gonna spend
three hours watching this. They don't think like that. They
think I'll watch it on my phone, or I'll just
watch the highlights, or I'll just go to house the
highlights and I'll see the clips and the in That
is a huge problem, and I think that's why you're
seeing the network and the NFL working so hard to
(21:58):
try to attract young reviewers with everything from that, you know, uh,
that crazy Nickelodeon game with the slime to Mega cast
everything else. Michael, Back in the nineties, I used to
love the NFL and NBC and the NBA on NBC.
I don't know if it was because of the broadcasters,
because the music, because t is all of it right, Um, Like,
(22:22):
what would you put up there as pound for pound
the best product right now on television? And I mean
everything Like the UFC two sixty last week was was great.
Obviously they had Fight Island. Uh, the Olympic coverage with NBC, NFL, NBA.
Like where do you fit in all of this? Like
who do you think has the best product pound for
pound for a particular sport? Oh? And that's a great question,
(22:46):
because yeah, I mean like you, I mean, I love
Round Bull Rock and NBC and that those great NBA games.
I mean, if I had to pick a league that
you know, it has the best product, best television product.
It's handed down the NFL. Um you know, the Fox
and CBS games on Sunday afternoon are the single most
(23:08):
watched games of the week and every single week. And
NBC Saturday Night Football is the single most watched program
in prime time for ten years in a row. I
mean the old Rectord was five years and that was
a gun, smoke and all in the family. Just ten
years in a row. It bores away everything Drava scripted comedies,
(23:31):
reality football football number one. I mean, the football product
is so so good that it's going to be a
challenge for them to get viewers back in the stadium
when you've got such a great television product, I say,
you know, the NBA Olympic NBC's Olympic coverage is just
outstanding and beautiful and it moves you, uh in such
(23:55):
a way that's you know, it's incredible. And then you
have the ESPN which does just, you know, just to
such a great job on college sports, and the NFL
and the NBA and MLB. I mean, I can go
on and on, but you know they're the king of
luck coverage. Yeah, Michael you know, during the pandemic when
there were no sports for a hundred and thirty four days.
(24:16):
Last year, I fell into the rabbit hole on YouTube
of watching random old games. So I realized that this
is merely for me nostalgia. But there are so many
channels hidden on YouTube that just broadcast random Monday night
baseball games with Keith Jackson and Cosell back in that
(24:36):
year and whatnot. It is, it is, it is wild.
It's a it's a gold mine. You see how sports
television has changed. Uh? And are those allowed though? I
mean it seems like those are still. How long does
the trademark last? How long does the copyright last? It's
I love it. I hope it doesn't go away. But
I I'm fascinated that they can put a three hour
(24:57):
random you know, Yankee Tiger game from on YouTube and
not get in trouble. For I know, it's like bringing
back ESPN Classic, remember that network. Yes, yes, go back
and watching teams and the announcers. Uh, you grow up,
you grow up with I mean with you. I love
you know, going back into the time capsule and you
(25:18):
know feeling you know, twelve beforeteen again, you know, watching
the Yankees in the World Series or whatever it was.
But I think there's those games also have a shelf life.
I mean I remember doing this story exactly. I don't
know it was a year ago, but just about a
year ago, you know, during the pandemic. It every single
network I talked to, from ESPN to the regionals were
(25:41):
bringing out classic programming. Right, So if you were in Detroit,
you saw the bird Federich, if you were in New
York you saw or you know, Reggie Jackson, you know,
or if you were in l A, you know, you'd
see Fernando and what they found that after about a
week of that, people stopped watching. I think got a
little dose like this is great, and then they stopped.
(26:04):
And the reason they stopped because it just doesn't have
the power in the attraction of a live game. A
live game where you don't know who's gonna win, where
you don't know what's gonna happen when you're anticipating next
grade game is the single greatest reality at the tavement
in the world. And you can't replace that. No, I
agree with you and I but I usually when I'm watching,
I'll be like doing so I'll be on the treadmill
(26:25):
and I'll stumble into a like a game, and they
don't usually put the score up, but I would agree
if you know the outcome of the game, like big
playoff games, and you know what's gonna happen. But some
of these, like I would watch him when I was
a kid, these Monday night baseball games, and I don't remember,
you know, a random Brewers game against whoever. So it's
a it is unique that way. Now I wanted to
(26:45):
move on. How about this Jim Nance story. I know
you've covered this here. Jim Nancy was supposedly a free agent,
was appending free agent. He was still with CBS. Obviously
he resigned. Uh And I had heard whispers and can
you confirm it tonight that Jim Nay was so he's
so in with the Masters people that if he had
actually left CBS, they would have taken the Masters TV
(27:08):
deal with him. Is that? Does that have any kernel
of truth to it? You know I had heard the
same rumor. I was never able to pin it down.
I mean, he is synonymous with the Masters, his voice,
his face, and the Masters does whatever they want. I mean,
what's amazing is you know these people who run out
(27:30):
got the national they don't follow the rules like everybody else.
I mean, they've had CBS on a one year deal
for fifty years. Can you imagine you Maaster been a
network was on a one year contract for fifty plus years.
So I mean, is that possible. I wasn't able to
pin it down enough to you know, to report that,
(27:50):
but yeah, I think it's possible. They love dance, and
Nance loves the Masters, and nances on record saying he
wants to call the Masters to least seventy five years old,
which is another fourteen years or so. So you know,
Nan to me is you know what I mean, one
of the you know, the four or five top talents
in the whole industry. And he means a lot to
(28:12):
the players, I mean to the members who run that club,
and you know what I mean, And they do have options.
I mean you're telling me, wouldn't NBC wouldn't love to
get their hands on the Masters. ESPN's got the early rounds,
Now what would they give for all four rounds for
the Masters? So yeah, I mean the Nance negotiation was fascinating. Um,
you know, he was, you know, this guy who everybody
(28:34):
sees as a lifer, But look this is business. I mean,
remember we grew up with John Madden, Madden word for
all four networks, right, yeah, yeah, just this is business.
You know. So if if Jim Nance had the opportunity
to move to a bunch better job where he would
be happier and more respected, I think he could have
(28:58):
been would have the fact that CBS recognized that recognized
how valuable he is, and he recognized how happy he is.
It is CBS worked out to a good conclusion. Michael,
speaking of golf um coverage over the last week, maybe
week and a half, about what's going on in in
Georgia with Major League Baseball and Dave Roberts had made
(29:20):
some comments out here in Los Angeles. What are you
hearing about Major League Baseball their stance on the All
Star Game in Atlanta? And do you think that we'll
see more of this? And if so, which what do
you think the wind blows? Do you think this would
be a huge lift or do you think this would
be a huge blowback if major League clubs or leagues
(29:43):
themselves take a stance against certain states legislators, governors and
how they operate their states respectively. Yeah, I think you
know the first question I think absolutely, we're gonna see
sports and politics in twined. Even more, you're gonna have
you know, groups and political parties across the aisle, you know,
(30:05):
weighing in. You know what I mean, for sports to
do this, to do that because of political reasons. I mean,
Joe Biden was on ESPN the other night, you know,
speaking out about it. So I think that you know,
horses out of the barn. You know, the idea that
you know who sports and politics shouldn't forget it, that
you know that that auguments over However, you know what
I mean, And one of the few people in the
(30:25):
media who is willing to say this, I do think
there's blown back from it. I do think when you
mingle sports and politics, anytime you delve into politics as
corporation or corporate entity, you risk alienating half the audience.
You get the people who who agree with you to
support you, and the people who don't agree with you,
we're not going to support you. And I think there
(30:46):
was a recent surveying, and like the last week or
two ago that said, you know, viewers have stopped watching
certain sports or stopped participating as much being a sports
fan because they were sick of the creeping uh intrusion
of Paul Fix into sports. So I expected to continue,
and I expect it to be blowback. If there's one
league out there that you think won't actually go down
(31:08):
or even rise up to the third rail into any
of this, what lead do you think that is NFL?
Um You know, when you look at the NFL there
their seasonal audience has dropped eight percent this year. Now
that's not as bad as you know, ten percent dropped
a couple of years ago, but I mean you compare
it to you know, some of the forty drops to
(31:29):
the NBA finals in Kentucky, Derby and Danley had finals
and in baseball and you know what I mean. So
if there's one uh sports league that's still bulletproof against that, uh,
it's the NFL. And you know, and to the point
about blowback also, I think the league's recognize this. I mean,
you know, Adam Silver has come out and said they're
(31:51):
going to tone down the politics. You know this season.
You know, we're gonna remove you know, all the banners
and the signs from player jerseys and courtside that you
know that the league is you know, very you know,
confident that they made their point, you know, during a
very important part of American history, and and now they
want to just go on and play. But you know,
like you say, sports can't hide anymore. You know, when
(32:14):
when Joe Biden has been in office for a month,
you know, gets up and start saying, you know, sports
should do this or that, or Trump is from the
bully pulpit on Twitter, you know, criticizing ESPN. There's no
escaping anymore. Yeah. I just have a hard time listening
to either coaches or managers or even players to that matter,
that don't read everything that has to go on, like
(32:37):
with a bill or with any kind of legislation that's
being presented. I have a hard time listening and and
respecting that when they're dedicated their life to their profession.
So how can you be so invested in your craft
and what you're doing and plus your celebrity status, they
all of a sudden you you venture into what's happening
on the opposite side of the country. Uh, in a city,
(33:00):
you're in a state or something like that. It just
doesn't add up for me. Well, what what it adds
up as to an insufferability factor? You know, a TV
viewers and Americans are you know, tired of rich, insufferable
Hollywood celebrities lecturing them how to live their lives. And
we're getting dangerously close to that with sports to you
(33:21):
have athletes who are making you know, heads of billions
of dollars, you know, lecturing you know, people who are
trying to you know, make ends meet week to week,
month to month, and it's kind of like, hey, you know,
the high ground gets kind of you know, the moral
high ground gets kind of slippery, particularly when you're not
saying the same thing about China in other countries. You're
just criticizing our own country. So they really got to
(33:44):
watch that where you know what I mean, they don't
have make create a basic disconnect between them and the
fans that supports them. Yeah, and I think it cuts
both ways. Michael, mean, it seems like this, you know,
politics and sports is really a democratic issue. There's no
to my knowledge, there's no sports leagues that are of
a republican based dogma. Uh And can you imagine if
(34:07):
one of the sports leagues took a position on the
other side, people's heads would explode there also, But I
think it's just the case and we as you said,
you referenced that study, and that's a great study that
just came out within the last like ten days or so,
and it was across the board, Michael. It wasn't just Republicans,
it was Democrats and independence were watching less sports because
(34:28):
of this nuts And how much coverage did you see that?
Very little? And I'll tell you why, because most of
the sports media is in favor of athletes being activists.
They're in favor of sports leagues being activists. They're in
favor of sports playing a role, uh in the political debate.
So I mean, I think there's some some narrative building
(34:49):
at work too, where you know what I mean, the
sports media is going to cover something if it fits
with their narrative, but they're not going to cover it
if it doesn't. And certainly that study did not go
with their narrative. So are you still you You mentioned
you you were at Rutgers. Are you still doing some
stuff at Rutgers now? Or is that in the past.
I'm not teaching uh this semester, but I've been an
(35:10):
adjunct professor there for five years. Loved it, great school.
I taught Multibedia Sports Reporting UM, which is basically I
think the only sports reporting anymore. You know, the idea
of you know, people being segmented by media, you know,
it doesn't exist anymore where you're just printed through, you're
just radio, you're just you know, everybody does everything now. Yeah,
(35:34):
absolutely absolutely, Yuh. I also what we have you I
wanted to bring up the story and you you had
some stuff I saw about this. Uh, the Athletic, which
has been around for a few years now, has some
big time players in sports, you know, sports writing. Got
some legendary figures there that right at the Athletic behind
the paywall, and there was there's been some talk that
(35:55):
they're gonna merge with Axios, the which I think of
as a political operation. There is this bad news for
the athletic or is this good news for the athletic
if they end up merging. I actually think it's it's
good news for the athletic because you know, the Athletic, uh,
you know went from being the place where everybody want
(36:15):
to work, you know, two or three years ago to
kind of you know struggling for the subscribers and you
know they don't accept the add so you know, that's
a whole huge stigin of money that's just turned off
U and newsletters right now with the hot thing. We're
a newsletter company, you know, Front Office Sports has five newsletters,
was born the way, and we are growing like a weed.
(36:38):
So I mean, for them to link up with a
company like that that is heading north, I think it's
great for the athletic and it's great for journalism because
I want to see journalists employed. It breaks my heart
when I see folks losing their jobs, you know, because
the corporate entities that manage them don't know what the
hell they're doing. So I mean, you know, to me,
whatever is good for the athletic is good for the industry.
(37:00):
But Michael, on that note, with what you have experienced,
what you have done, and now what you see in
today's world, do you think there are more or less
qualified journalists in the sports market, Because it feels like
to me, especially when it comes to a local level,
that they're not necessarily journalists. They are just an extension
(37:20):
of the pr machine of that team or that league. Yeah,
I think it's clearly less. Uh, you know, you can't
lay off you know, thousands upon thousands of train qualified
sports journalists over the last ten years and not having
the impact on your business. I mean even just watching
TV or going on websites. I'm saying basic mistakes that
(37:42):
you never used to see. You know why is that? Well,
who were the first people that got rid of a right?
You know, if you worked in a newspaper or magazine
like I did, you know you knew the copy editors.
They were usually you know, kind of weird, you know,
kind of indio synchrome, you know, neurotic, introversial. You know,
(38:04):
they studied you know, English folklore or something. But they
would save your butt come crunch time, you know what
I mean. They would find the mistakes, or they would
ask the questions, or they would ride your ass, you know,
to make sure you got it right. And when they
took kind of you know, the first thing they wiped
out is that kind of safety layer. So I mean,
I think that as much as anything else has hurt,
you know, the quality of the product. Well that not
(38:26):
only that, but also the influence from teams or from
from professional leagues, because god forbid, you criticize a team
a player, and they'll light you up, or they'll just
want to allow you inside the locker room anymore, grant
you interview requests. I mean new York can get away
with it because you got eighteen twenty people on a
New York Yankees beat, you know, the Jets, the Giants,
(38:47):
things of that nature. But there's not a lot of
hard hitting markets out there anymore that allow their journalists
to attack and to criticize and to critique the talent
or the management. It's a great point. I mean, as
the saw is of newspapers and their influence wings, you know,
the power of the league's and particularly teams increases. I
(39:08):
see it really at the college level. Uh, you know,
these college programs could free you out if coach doesn't
like what you wrote. You know, and you know, and
there's no respect anymore for that kind of line between
what journalists have to do and what uh colleges and
sports leagues have to do. So yeah, that that's a
real problem. What you need is people who are going
(39:31):
to support you when that phone call comes from you know,
the GM or the coach or the president of the school.
You need somebody who's going to have your back, not
somebody's gonna throw you under the bus, you know, Michael,
just we gotta wrap this up. But I just following
up that train of thought here, I know, I've done
sports radio a long time, and I have noticed over
(39:52):
the years when you're critical that there were people that
love that. Now, I feel like over the last like
five ten years, I'm not sure when exactly it started.
It's like many people can't handle They want you to
only say nice things about the athletes they like and
the players they like. It's a very odd change that
has taken place. I don't know if you've noticed that,
(40:12):
but I have. My theory is it's because of like
MLB dot com NFL dot com. They get the watered
down story. But it seems like many many younger fans
do not want negativity with their sports coverage. It's very
odd to me. Have you noticed that at all? It
(40:32):
is very odd. It's like, you know, you're supposed to
be a cheerleader, which is the exact opposite of what
being the journalist is. You know what I mean. You
know you're supposed to be yeah, and you know, if
somebody does something great, you know, do it. I mean,
that's one of the things I've always respected about the
NFL is the big boys and girls. When it comes
to this, you know you're gonna rip them. You're gonna
criticize them, you know what I mean, they'll they'll take
(40:53):
it and move on. But you're right, some of the
smaller outfits are so uh, you know, sensitive to critics, schism,
and you know they have these you know, fanboy basis
on Twitter. You know what I mean? Would you move
into action? You know what I mean before you know,
be ratio. So yeah, I think I think it is
(41:17):
a problem, but I think it's about the growing polarization
of the country. If you look at politics, we used
to be able to talk as the country. We used
to be able to come together. Now it's like you've
got to pick a side and the other side of evil. Yeah,
I completely agree, Michael Tremaneus. We could do like another
hour and a half, but we'll let you go. And
I appreciate that. And again, if you want to read
(41:38):
more of Michael, it's Front Office Sports dot com and
how can people find you on Twitter? There, Michael, my
handle is m McCarthy rent at Twitter, And uh, I
appreciate the invite. I really enjoyed the conversation.
Host
Ben Maller
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