June 25, 2026 • 27 mins
Are men being pushed to the margins of modern society? Why are fewer men getting married, starting families, or feeling a sense of purpose? Buck sits down with psychologist and author Helen Smith to discuss her new book, His Side. Together they explore the growing divide between men and women, the challenges of modern dating, fatherlessness, masculinity, marriage, and why so many young men feel disconnected from the institutions around them.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Are men being marginalized? Is masculinity being suppressed? What the
heck is going on with family formation? And what do
guys think about all this? You don't often hear that
stuff addressed out there, Well now you will. Helen Smith
is a forensic psychologist and her book His Side, Men
(00:22):
speak Out on dating, marriage and life in America. It's
published earlier this year, and I'm excited to dive into
it myself. Helen, just first tell us the core premise.
Tell us about what you're tackling in this book, because
I love the overview when I checked it out.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yeah, well, it's actually a follow up to my first book,
which I wrote thirteen years ago, called Men on Strike.
So Men on Strike was about why men don't want
to get married, why they're boycotting fatherhood marriage in the
American dream, and I talked to men and it was
basically a political book, right. It looked at this social
and psychological reasons that men don't want to get married,
and the legal ones too. But this book is sort
of like I had so many men talking to me
(01:00):
over time and saying, you know, things have just gotten
so much worse for us, Like masculinity is really under attack.
There are so many things politically, socially, and even with culturally,
particularly with dating women in today's times.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
And so I went out a year.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Before the election, before Trump got elected, and I interviewed
men for about a year. I divided it up into
three categories, young men, middle aged men, and older men,
and I talked to each group about what their concerns were.
In the United States of America right now?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Now, was there one thread that kind of ran through
all those different groups in common? I mean, that was
the I'm sure there were distinctions and variations, of course,
that's why you separated them up into different cohorts, if
you will.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
But what's there?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Is it just that society is becoming too female centered.
I'm sure a bunch of stone faced feminists would be
very upset at the mention of that.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Well, you know, maybe so.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
But yes, I think that Helen Andrews had talked about
that and others expert who sort of looks at these issues,
and she talks a lot about how things have become
very female centered.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And I've noticed this.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I started a men's rights blog in the early two thousands,
and men were telling me about it even back then.
But over time the country has become much more feminized,
and I think it's because it's political and it's much
easier to get women to go along with a program
of collectivism. And so the thread was there was a
female center society that I don't fit into, and the
(02:28):
men felt that there were so many hardships and difficulties.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
That nobody wanted to hear about.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And the big thing was the themes were a lot
of guys don't have dads anymore, so they don't really
have anywhere to turn.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So there was no men out in.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Society teaching guys how to be a man, whether that
be the institutions, the schools work and it covers every
aspect of guy's lives. So there was the theme of
fotherlessness and then there was a theme of feeling they
didn't have a purpose in life. And I think those
are some of the that we saw in the election,
especially with Elon Musk and with with even President Trumpet
(03:05):
sort of like these men gave these young guys hope.
And I think you're I guess, uh, mister Travis had
written a book about that.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Yeah, Clay Clay certainly.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
So I'm newly married, so I have some marriage thoughts
that I want to I want to hear what you've
come up with in the book and the research. But
first though on on dating, I will tell you one
of that. I have so many thoughts on the dating thing.
I wish you had kind of interviewed me for the book,
hele and maybe next time maybe probably now. Yeah, So
(03:35):
so you got to you got to get me to
sit down there because I was a guy who was
on and off single dating in New York for call
it almost twenty years. Uh so, I I'd seen a
lot in my time. One of the things that I
feel like this is an observation. You can tell me
if this isn't the data. Somehow we have a society
(03:56):
now where women are supposed to be in the work
I want to say supposed to be. I mean, this
is what's being pushed by the you know, the culture
and everything else in the workplace as much as men
earning as much as men. But all of the data
that I've seen on dating, and I experienced this myself,
is women want a man to out earn them, and
(04:17):
if that doesn't happen, we have this whole dating mismatch
where you know, the men are supposed to sort of
pay and provide. But women are supposed to be in
the workplace and making as much, if not more.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
How is that supposed to add up?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
It doesn't add up.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And what you're saying is true, and the data does
support that. So the data the Pew Research Center looked
at how people feel about finances and they felt that
men were still supposed to provide. The majority of people
in this country, men and women both feel that men
are supposed to provide, particularly in the marriage. I forget
what the exact number is, something like it's something like
seventy one percent of all people feel that way, right,
(04:52):
So you've got the old ways. It's an old contract.
So the old contract says men provide. But what's happened
is women have this new contract and the new contract
for women. And this is kind of Myron Gains where
Myron Gains wrote a book called Women Deserve Less, And
so the basic gist of that is that women don't
women say they feel entitled. They feel like, Okay, I
(05:14):
am supposed to find a man who's a higher level
than me, has a better education, makes more money than me,
and the guy and she wants all of that. But
at the same time, she also wants to sort of
hold it over any man that she doesn't have more than.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
And you're right, and so what's happening. There's this mismatch.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
So there's all these guys who aren't just college educated,
who don't make as much money, and then there's all
these women who have more education and more money. So
they're having a hard time finding a man because they
will only take somebody on a higher level, and no
matter where they are. I've talked to so many women,
there'll be a high power lawyer and you're sort of
like you're making a fortune, and they still want a
man that makes more than them because that's the only
(05:54):
way that.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
They feel okay about themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
It's also you got to realize this is really about
showing to their female friends how popular they are and
how much you know, I can get this alpha male
who has all of this.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
So they feel like they have to have all.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Of these things in order to sort of fit in,
and women who have less see themselves as not as popular,
not as successful.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
How does it factor into your research here and in
the book.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
That so, I mean one thing that I know to
be true, and also I believe the data that I
have seen on this to a degree, you can gather
it supports this.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
That men.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Men have first and that they desire beauty in a female,
whatever they view that as, but in a female they
don't really care very much about professional accomplishment in a
possible mate. But what I see and what I hear
from a lot of the guys I know even to
this day, who are, say in South Florida, trying to
(06:59):
find their their wife, speaking from the male perspective, is
that you have women who have standards that they apply
professionally and standards that they apply physically. Specifically, height is
something that I am shocked how superficial women are and
people are saying you must be short.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I'm six feet tall.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
This was not a problem for me, but I am
shocked at how much and by the way some women
that's like the the the that's.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
That's the cutoff point.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
That's a cutoff point, and that is from the app
So what we're seeing is all the guys I talked to,
and you can read about this in the book, but
the bit I talk to, particularly the younger ones, said
that there is a high situation, and there is when
you look at the data something like fifty two percent
of women don't want a data man shorter than them, right,
So that exits out half the men in the country, right,
So they wanted a data man six feet or higher,
and some women even have a thing six y three.
(07:50):
But that is purely because of the apps. Now that
we can go online dehumanize people and go flipping through
an app looking at, oh, you know, ordering somebody like
a puppy. Now a man is like a and I'll
just go out there and just swipe around. I think
you're right about men, But here's the thing. A man
is just kind of looking for someone who looks pretty good.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Is kind of nice.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, you know, they want somebody who's friendly and might
like like them.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Can I just backtrack into a SegReg or if you
go back, because really, it's they want a woman that
they're attracted to, is really it's not you know, obviously
not everyone thinks that, and not everyone wants, you know,
a bikini model or something. They want someone they're attracted to,
but they don't care if she's the CEO or a
preschool teacher or you know whatever. They just want a
woman that they like, Whereas I feel like women have
these you said the apps, And by the way, I
(08:35):
totally agree with Again you have done the research and
all this. I have just lived this where women have
this very they think they're ordering extras on a car
and then the other part of this they don't want
to hear at all.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
By the way, is what.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Are the extras on your car? You know, like, what
are you bringing to the equation? I think there's a
mismatch there too. Women only. I think what's the guy's name?
Scott Galloway says women all think they should only dated
ways and up with whatever status is that they want.
Guys are much more open to, like I just want,
to your point, someone that's you know, kind of pretty,
kind of nice that goes a long way.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, women are, and they want so much and women
more and more are. It's like their expectations are so very,
very high and they all think they're entitled. And part
of this is from feminism and all the things on
the internet were people. It doesn't matter what a woman
says on the internet. All she gets is you go girl.
That woman will say the stupidest stuff, sorry, stuff I've
ever seen, and it doesn't matter. All her friends will
(09:32):
be on there. Oh you go girl. If a woman acts,
you know, un professionally rude. Have you ever seen these apps?
These are we dating the same guys on Facebook?
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Oh yeah, a dating shame guys?
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, yeah, shaming guys. And it's almost to me it
should almost.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Be illegal because they're literally will follow guys around. Women
will take pictures and put these guys up and say
this was a bad day. So women will literally pull
apart a man. They will put his picture up, he
didn't pull the chair out for me, and she'll tell
another guy. I had a friend once that was telling
me how these things are. These Facebook pages are fine,
and I said.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Pull it up. She goes, well, I'm in Europe. It's
not that bad. I said, pull it up. I looked
at it.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
On There was every guy on there, there were pictures
of him, there were things about Every woman was on
there talking about, you know, going through step by step
what he did or didn't do on a day. And
I asked, you know, I'll ask women, how would you
feel if someone did that to you? Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Man, I wouldn't like it, but.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
They think it's okay. So there's almost reverse there's a
reverse empathy gap. Women talk about how empathetic and wonderful
they are. They don't care about men, and that's really
what men in my book are learning. One of the
things they say is they totally understand, even the younger
men that women they don't care as much. I think
men are much more open and empathetic in a lot
(10:45):
of ways. They really care about women. And that's really
the thread through the book was men love women. They
just do. All of them told me that, even the
disappointed ones, even the sad ones, even the angry ones,
they all said, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
We really love women.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Hurt by them, I disappointed by them. And that was
the thing that I really found because I think these
stories people think that men don't really care or they
don't talk. Every single man I talked to talk to
me for at least an hour and a half, if
not four hours, and could go on for days.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
You break this up and the book is called and
I really am by the way, I'm buying a copy
of your book.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I am going to read. I find all this stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Well, I see, I like to buy because I'm an
author too, and I like to You can send me
as signed one, but I'm going on Amazon. I'm going
on Amazon to help out the numbers here, but men
speak out on dating, marriage, and life in America. I
don't know if you know this. I had an experience
on the Bill Mahers show, so it's very public where
the subject set by the host Bill of course, Bill
(11:43):
Marshow was do Democrats have a problem with masculinity and
with sort of masculine essentially masculinity in the electorate going
into the election? This is in September of twenty eighty four.
And I started to say, you know, we asked this
is a problem because masculinity can only be toxic masculinity.
(12:05):
And on que a black female panelist was you know,
I said, you know, things like courage or you know,
these are all devalued and you can't She starts saying,
what about women and what about minorities?
Speaker 4 (12:16):
This is what you can't even have a conversation.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I'm not even allowed to talk about what could be
good about masculinity without people wanting to talk about either
not men or talk about other things, or talk about
toxic masculinity.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
How do we break away from this?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
It almost feels like there's a there's a madness here
and it's a problem. It's a Democrat party problem. It's
a real one, it.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Is, and it's a kind of a problem on both sides.
Republicans tend to do what I call white nighting. They
will be shivelerous towards women or think that women have
to win custody of their children, or we have to
play kay put women on a pedestal.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
So there's that opposite problem, right.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Well, the biggest problem is coming, i believe, from the
Democrats in the sense that they view they really don't
view men's abilities as anything. They want to look down
on it and just say it's part of the patriarchy,
not looking at all the wonderful things that men do,
men keep the society going.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Nobody sees it. It's all behind the lines.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
People are out there doing work every day on our
roads everywhere, and people don't want to see it.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
But I agree with what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And one reason I write the books that I do
is people say, well, why is a woman writing a book?
It's because people sometimes, especially when I wrote my last
book over thirteen years ago, people will sort of listen
because they don't quite know what to do. If a
woman is talking men's rights, right, what do you do?
Like somebody might yell at a guy, or he might
It's very difficult. If a man says anything, he might
be tagged as a misogynist. He could lose his job,
(13:44):
he could have a problem, he could not get his degree.
And that's what I talk to the men about, all
the things that happen to them. When they do speak up.
You ask how we get past this problem? But I
think the problem is I think the issue is what
we're doing right now. You have to speak up, and
I don't care. I mean, there have been lots of
times where I've boken up and I know, you know what,
I'm never gonna work for this person again, or you
know what, might get kicked out of here.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
If that's okay, I've accepted that's part of the deal. Unfortunately,
it shouldn't be that way to do.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Do women can I can? I ask you? Sorry? So
do women? Do you feel like there's a reflexive when
I say women?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Obviously it's half the you know, there's like seven billion
people in the world, and about half of them are women.
So I mean we're generalizing, but I'm asking for your
in your experience here in America, I think I detect
a southern accent. I'm guessing you live in like Tennessee
or a similar locale Tennessee.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
There we go. Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So, so when women come up to you, do you
find that overall or in the majority do they you know,
is there like a reflexive attack of the message you
have or do you think that there's actually more of
a split of women who say what you're saying here?
Because I know men are going to love this book.
This is this is I mean, I'm sitting here saying
(14:57):
men are going to say. Finally someone's saying that. What
do women say about your message?
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Though?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I think women's stop and listen because I didn't used
to think that they did, and sometimes they would try
to talk back, but I think that they really want
to understand. I think at this point in our society,
there's so many women out there who are just they
don't understand what's happening. And I have to say that
a lot of times it's really good women who they
can't get a man. They literally can't find a guy
for themselves, and they're kind of wondering what's happening.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
The other thing I get is.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
A lot of moms who are have sons and they
are very, very interested in the topic, and so they
do understand. And I think the old older women do
understand who have sons. I do think the younger women
are starting to understand because they do have sons and
they do have some empathy and understanding. I used to
get a lot more at texts in the early days.
I don't much anymore. I don't really listen, so I
(15:46):
don't know. I do know that once, for example, there's
a rapper TI.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I don't know if you know who he is.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Oh, sure, sure, I've found with some of his work.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I didn't know who he was.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
But apparently he saw my first book and he put
up a you know, a tweet about it was Twitter
back then. He put up a tweet about it, and
I literally got all kinds of messages from his from
his wife, time, from the wife's I think they were
friends or fans.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
I don't know what they were.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Wait, did he hate the book or did he like
the book?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Oh? He loved my book?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
I figured, okay, I thought he'd probably yeah, he loved
the book.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I can find the tweet for you.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
But it was something like it was just something from
the book talking about how not all men should be married,
and then the incentives for marriage were very difficult, and
sometimes things don't work out, you know, and all the
women got really angry, and they did write me and
tell me off.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I suppose I don't really care, But so yes, are
there people like that? Yes? But are there are there
also on the other side women who do care.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
And one thing I want to say is with this book,
I've been surprised more women.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Nobody.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Women didn't really read Men on Strike my first book,
But this book, I've noticed it's more women writing me.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I noticed a couple, like some of.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
The reviews on Amazon were more from women saying, you know,
I'm a millennial wife and I read your book.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
It really helped me understand my husband.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Or there was one person who said, I have a son,
I'm trying to go through a court case with him,
and I didn't know that men were so discriminated against.
So I think women are starting to really see it's
affecting them. It's affecting people. But one thing I want
to say, unlike some of the other you know, experts
in this area, they're always talking there and trying to say like, oh,
I'm just looking out for women, it's really I really
(17:18):
in my ability, I mean just as a person, as
a psychologist, and I care about men like I honestly
had always, I guess because going back to my dad,
I just really had.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
A great dad.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And I just I fund men and what they do
fascinating and so important to our society, to the civilization
of the United States of America. And I don't understand
how other people don't feel this way, but they don't
understand the implications of alienating this many men from the society.
I just want to say one more thing is that
(17:51):
many men are not becoming fathers anymore. And of those men,
there are one out of four men who they say
will never be a dad. And those guys who were
twenty five to forty five, there's something like now more
than a fourth aren't fathers, and that didn't used to
be the case. And a lot of men are having
to miss out on this, and a lot of women
are missing out too, And I think that's such an
(18:11):
unfortunate thing. And we'll see how it all plays out,
but I'm hoping that things will turn around.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Can I tell you something from from my own from
my own experience, and this is, you know, you know,
It's funny because Carol Markowitz, who's a great friend of
mine and also right, yeah, she does a great show,
and and you know her and I we it's funny
because I think she knew that I would enjoy talking
about this, because I love talking to her about this
stuff because you know, we're both now past forty, have families,
have kids, yeah, and and so we can kind of
(18:39):
reflect on all of this. And one thing that I
that I really was very aware of, at least in
New York City, was that there was like I was,
even though I was somebody who was clearly ambitious and
working hard, for a lot of women in my what
I would consider peer group that I came across in
New York because I was originally working for the government,
(19:01):
so I had a job and a night you know,
an income and health benefits, whatever. But I wasn't I
wasn't economically viable as a partner for a lot of
women who wanted the money, they wanted the security. Now,
and I mean at twenty eight or you know, twenty
six or third, you know, at a young age, there
(19:23):
was a sense that a lot of women just sort
of were immediately drawn to and now maybe this is
more of a New York thing.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
But I don't.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Understand how people if everyone wants a guy or only
will marry a guy who is well off whatever that
means to an individual, but you know, usually in America
it means like two fifty three hundred ka. It depends
where you are, city and everything else. But you know,
making like a top five percent kind of income with
(19:52):
a top five percent height with it.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I've told women who have told me what their parameters are.
I'm like, you're looking for a one in ten thousand,
you know that.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Right, It's not one in ten thousand.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
They literally have statistics if you look on TikTok or anything.
Even some of the guys when I would meet with them,
they'd hand me the statistics and it's something like one
point two guys out of one hundred thousand had these things.
There's even that many men over six feet tall. Well,
you know, And I think a lot of it is
the media because people are going on TikTok and I'll
see interviews with women and somebody, a woman or man.
An interviewer will ask the woman, well, what do you
(20:23):
think the average man in the US makes? Your age
twenty eight oh, you know, one hundred and fifty thousand.
Well the average man makes like fifty thousand dollars or less. Okay,
that would be a great salary. So they're asking for
things that aren't available.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
And all these.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Women are told And the other thing is women if
there are six, they all think they're tens.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I don't know when it comes.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Up with it, but now the culture has told them this.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Well, you know, even the like the embrace of which
now with GLPS, isn't it funny that there is a
real like medical help to get not fat. The whole
embrace of fat embracing wasn't for men. That was purely
that was just a woman driven phenomenon, like love me
at two hundred and fifty pounds and five foot three,
Like that's what we were being.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Told, right, But to be told that because people they're
always told that the patriarch it's bad. Men are bad,
and men are supposed to do anything that women tell
them to do. And it's driven by the fact that
women vote, women have Carrie, they spend most of the money.
And I got to tell you it's a lot easier
to hustle and make money off women than it is
off men. Men are more, you know, and the way
(21:25):
that people perceive the government, women perceive the government in
a different way. That was one of the interesting things
in my book. The younger men particularly understood that women
use the government to pay for themselves. Men want the
government to sort of stay out of their way and
let them be an entrepreneur, let them go and do
the things they.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Want to do.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
And I could go into so many other issues about it,
but I mean, that would be an all day out there.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I don't know if you know, I don't know if
you know Anne Culter are familiar with their work, but
I know Anne pretty well, and she of Court well.
She always she says that that for liberal women, the
government is their boyfriend. That's always there. The boyfriend pay.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
For things daddy that they always hated. But they just
get the government to pay for themselves. And that's exactly
what That's exactly true. I remember having this conversation over
thirteen years ago with Tucker Carlson on Fox and we
were talking about the same thing, and they were He
was totally disgusted at the time.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I remember him being like, oh my gosh, But I
was like, women.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Use the government to pay for themselves, and they want
a guy who can pay for her too, And somehow
it's kind of like what you were saying, what do
you bring into the table, And women don't think they
have to bring anything to the table anymore. They want
the guy to work, they want him to take care
of the kids, they want him to have the job
making the money, and the man is kind of like
men at this point are sort of like, oh my god,
like what's in it for me?
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Or it's so expensive to be this they just give up.
So it's a difficult situation.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I have never seen I see the mismatch that I observed,
and again not just in my own experience, but I
have a lot of friends from my generation in New
York who are still unmarried. I mean, I'm forty four,
so you know, your marriage rates go down. I'm married,
I've got a wife and a kid, but a lot
of my friends are unmarried. A lot of the women
I know are unmarried. And marriage rate for women after
(23:02):
forty and certainly family formation goes way way, way, way,
way way down for biological reasons.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And do you know that the Institute for Families just
found out that I think it's something like forty percent
of women in their twenties expect to never have children.
And they's estimating that about the case and I'm like,
that have forty percent. I don't know how that will
play out, but that's a lot. Yes, women themselves don't
feel like they're going to have kids.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It's an astonishingly high number. And I've heard similar things,
by the way, But the biggest thing that I see,
I honestly I think, Okay, so see we're supposed to
go like, by the way, I'm already we've.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Gone way over here, Helen.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
So I really enjoyed talking about this, but I was
going to say, I think the biggest uh, the the
neutron bomb that has gone off among you know, women
in their lives in the twenty first century. The instagramification
of everything, both the immediate gratification that young women get from,
you know, at the peak of their beauty and their desirability,
(24:02):
you know, constantly having strangers, Oh you're amazing. Oh I'd
fly you to you know, I'd fly you to Saint
Bart's and we'd be on my yacht. And you know,
professional basketball players sliding into their dms or football or
you know, you name the sport. Oh you know, when
I'm in town, all these all this distraction and all
of this, honestly, this digital narcissism, and it's just really hard.
(24:23):
I think a lot of people, a lot of young women,
become kind of addicted to this. I know people don't
want to hear this, but this is what I observe.
And then they turn around at thirty seven ish.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
And go, I want to I want to go. I
want now. I want the guy.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You know, I could have had the guy before, but
now I want the guy who's you know, stable, great job.
You know, he's a surgeon, he's a nice guy that
man wants.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
To twenty five year old who's not going to bother
him and is just happy to have him around.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
What you just said is what women will not be told.
Millions of women will not be told by society.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
But and it is real.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Can listen to the show as a guy, can they
can walk away? And I would leave that with and
you know, if people want to change to have a
happy life, the worst thing you can do is get
on the internet and listen to your girlfriends or whatever
telling you you go girl, because you know what what
sounds good when you're twenty something isn't going to sound
good when you're thirty something and can't have any kids
(25:16):
and are sad, and I just you know, it's it's for.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
The men too. The men.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I mean, I mean so many fabulous, average what people
would call average guys that are not average. I mean,
the people I talked to in the book were working
in medical fields, they were working in all kinds of fields,
and they're good guys. And those good guys and good
women are left with nobody, and that's what's happening. And
then the people who are narcissistic, like you said, are
just aging out and it's just a it's a mismatch.
(25:44):
And I think if people don't, all you can do
is in your individual life is is try like rethink
what you're doing, and you know you'll have a happier
life if you are willing to humanize people. I think
we've dehumanized men and women and it's really a hard situation.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
His side, men speak out on dating, marriage, and life
in America. I am buying it right as we are
closing out here. I'm gonna go on Amazon. I get
a copy Helen Smith, Helen great book. Thank you for
being here. I've actually got to say a word here
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(26:24):
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(27:08):
Smith the Great book His Side. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it
Are men being marginalized? Is masculinity being suppressed? What the
heck is going on with family formation? And what do
guys think about all this? You don't often hear that
stuff addressed out there, Well now you will. Helen Smith
is a forensic psychologist and her book His Side, Men
(00:22):
speak Out on dating, marriage and life in America. It's
published earlier this year, and I'm excited to dive into
it myself. Helen, just first tell us the core premise.
Tell us about what you're tackling in this book, because
I love the overview when I checked it out.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yeah, well, it's actually a follow up to my first book,
which I wrote thirteen years ago, called Men on Strike.
So Men on Strike was about why men don't want
to get married, why they're boycotting fatherhood marriage in the
American dream, and I talked to men and it was
basically a political book, right. It looked at this social
and psychological reasons that men don't want to get married,
and the legal ones too. But this book is sort
of like I had so many men talking to me
(01:00):
over time and saying, you know, things have just gotten
so much worse for us, Like masculinity is really under attack.
There are so many things politically, socially, and even with culturally,
particularly with dating women in today's times.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
And so I went out a year.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Before the election, before Trump got elected, and I interviewed
men for about a year. I divided it up into
three categories, young men, middle aged men, and older men,
and I talked to each group about what their concerns were.
In the United States of America right now?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Now, was there one thread that kind of ran through
all those different groups in common? I mean, that was
the I'm sure there were distinctions and variations, of course,
that's why you separated them up into different cohorts, if
you will.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
But what's there?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Is it just that society is becoming too female centered.
I'm sure a bunch of stone faced feminists would be
very upset at the mention of that.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Well, you know, maybe so.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
But yes, I think that Helen Andrews had talked about
that and others expert who sort of looks at these issues,
and she talks a lot about how things have become
very female centered.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
And I've noticed this.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I started a men's rights blog in the early two thousands,
and men were telling me about it even back then.
But over time the country has become much more feminized,
and I think it's because it's political and it's much
easier to get women to go along with a program
of collectivism. And so the thread was there was a
female center society that I don't fit into, and the
(02:28):
men felt that there were so many hardships and difficulties.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
That nobody wanted to hear about.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
And the big thing was the themes were a lot
of guys don't have dads anymore, so they don't really
have anywhere to turn.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So there was no men out in.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Society teaching guys how to be a man, whether that
be the institutions, the schools work and it covers every
aspect of guy's lives. So there was the theme of
fotherlessness and then there was a theme of feeling they
didn't have a purpose in life. And I think those
are some of the that we saw in the election,
especially with Elon Musk and with with even President Trumpet
(03:05):
sort of like these men gave these young guys hope.
And I think you're I guess, uh, mister Travis had
written a book about that.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Yeah, Clay Clay certainly.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
So I'm newly married, so I have some marriage thoughts
that I want to I want to hear what you've
come up with in the book and the research. But
first though on on dating, I will tell you one
of that. I have so many thoughts on the dating thing.
I wish you had kind of interviewed me for the book,
hele and maybe next time maybe probably now. Yeah, So
(03:35):
so you got to you got to get me to
sit down there because I was a guy who was
on and off single dating in New York for call
it almost twenty years. Uh so, I I'd seen a
lot in my time. One of the things that I
feel like this is an observation. You can tell me
if this isn't the data. Somehow we have a society
(03:56):
now where women are supposed to be in the work
I want to say supposed to be. I mean, this
is what's being pushed by the you know, the culture
and everything else in the workplace as much as men
earning as much as men. But all of the data
that I've seen on dating, and I experienced this myself,
is women want a man to out earn them, and
(04:17):
if that doesn't happen, we have this whole dating mismatch
where you know, the men are supposed to sort of
pay and provide. But women are supposed to be in
the workplace and making as much, if not more.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
How is that supposed to add up?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
It doesn't add up.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And what you're saying is true, and the data does
support that. So the data the Pew Research Center looked
at how people feel about finances and they felt that
men were still supposed to provide. The majority of people
in this country, men and women both feel that men
are supposed to provide, particularly in the marriage. I forget
what the exact number is, something like it's something like
seventy one percent of all people feel that way, right,
(04:52):
So you've got the old ways. It's an old contract.
So the old contract says men provide. But what's happened
is women have this new contract and the new contract
for women. And this is kind of Myron Gains where
Myron Gains wrote a book called Women Deserve Less, And
so the basic gist of that is that women don't
women say they feel entitled. They feel like, Okay, I
(05:14):
am supposed to find a man who's a higher level
than me, has a better education, makes more money than me,
and the guy and she wants all of that. But
at the same time, she also wants to sort of
hold it over any man that she doesn't have more than.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
And you're right, and so what's happening. There's this mismatch.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
So there's all these guys who aren't just college educated,
who don't make as much money, and then there's all
these women who have more education and more money. So
they're having a hard time finding a man because they
will only take somebody on a higher level, and no
matter where they are. I've talked to so many women,
there'll be a high power lawyer and you're sort of
like you're making a fortune, and they still want a
man that makes more than them because that's the only
(05:54):
way that.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
They feel okay about themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
It's also you got to realize this is really about
showing to their female friends how popular they are and
how much you know, I can get this alpha male
who has all of this.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
So they feel like they have to have all.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Of these things in order to sort of fit in,
and women who have less see themselves as not as popular,
not as successful.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
How does it factor into your research here and in
the book.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
That so, I mean one thing that I know to
be true, and also I believe the data that I
have seen on this to a degree, you can gather
it supports this.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
That men.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Men have first and that they desire beauty in a female,
whatever they view that as, but in a female they
don't really care very much about professional accomplishment in a
possible mate. But what I see and what I hear
from a lot of the guys I know even to
this day, who are, say in South Florida, trying to
(06:59):
find their their wife, speaking from the male perspective, is
that you have women who have standards that they apply
professionally and standards that they apply physically. Specifically, height is
something that I am shocked how superficial women are and
people are saying you must be short.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I'm six feet tall.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
This was not a problem for me, but I am
shocked at how much and by the way some women
that's like the the the that's.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
That's the cutoff point.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
That's a cutoff point, and that is from the app
So what we're seeing is all the guys I talked to,
and you can read about this in the book, but
the bit I talk to, particularly the younger ones, said
that there is a high situation, and there is when
you look at the data something like fifty two percent
of women don't want a data man shorter than them, right,
So that exits out half the men in the country, right,
So they wanted a data man six feet or higher,
and some women even have a thing six y three.
(07:50):
But that is purely because of the apps. Now that
we can go online dehumanize people and go flipping through
an app looking at, oh, you know, ordering somebody like
a puppy. Now a man is like a and I'll
just go out there and just swipe around. I think
you're right about men, But here's the thing. A man
is just kind of looking for someone who looks pretty good.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Is kind of nice.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, you know, they want somebody who's friendly and might
like like them.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Can I just backtrack into a SegReg or if you
go back, because really, it's they want a woman that
they're attracted to, is really it's not you know, obviously
not everyone thinks that, and not everyone wants, you know,
a bikini model or something. They want someone they're attracted to,
but they don't care if she's the CEO or a
preschool teacher or you know whatever. They just want a
woman that they like, Whereas I feel like women have
these you said the apps, And by the way, I
(08:35):
totally agree with Again you have done the research and
all this. I have just lived this where women have
this very they think they're ordering extras on a car
and then the other part of this they don't want
to hear at all.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
By the way, is what.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Are the extras on your car? You know, like, what
are you bringing to the equation? I think there's a
mismatch there too. Women only. I think what's the guy's name?
Scott Galloway says women all think they should only dated
ways and up with whatever status is that they want.
Guys are much more open to, like I just want,
to your point, someone that's you know, kind of pretty,
kind of nice that goes a long way.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, women are, and they want so much and women
more and more are. It's like their expectations are so very,
very high and they all think they're entitled. And part
of this is from feminism and all the things on
the internet were people. It doesn't matter what a woman
says on the internet. All she gets is you go girl.
That woman will say the stupidest stuff, sorry, stuff I've
ever seen, and it doesn't matter. All her friends will
(09:32):
be on there. Oh you go girl. If a woman acts,
you know, un professionally rude. Have you ever seen these apps?
These are we dating the same guys on Facebook?
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Oh yeah, a dating shame guys?
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, yeah, shaming guys. And it's almost to me it
should almost.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Be illegal because they're literally will follow guys around. Women
will take pictures and put these guys up and say
this was a bad day. So women will literally pull
apart a man. They will put his picture up, he
didn't pull the chair out for me, and she'll tell
another guy. I had a friend once that was telling
me how these things are. These Facebook pages are fine,
and I said.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Pull it up. She goes, well, I'm in Europe. It's
not that bad. I said, pull it up. I looked
at it.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
On There was every guy on there, there were pictures
of him, there were things about Every woman was on
there talking about, you know, going through step by step
what he did or didn't do on a day. And
I asked, you know, I'll ask women, how would you
feel if someone did that to you? Oh?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Man, I wouldn't like it, but.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
They think it's okay. So there's almost reverse there's a
reverse empathy gap. Women talk about how empathetic and wonderful
they are. They don't care about men, and that's really
what men in my book are learning. One of the
things they say is they totally understand, even the younger
men that women they don't care as much. I think
men are much more open and empathetic in a lot
(10:45):
of ways. They really care about women. And that's really
the thread through the book was men love women. They
just do. All of them told me that, even the
disappointed ones, even the sad ones, even the angry ones,
they all said, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
We really love women.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Hurt by them, I disappointed by them. And that was
the thing that I really found because I think these
stories people think that men don't really care or they
don't talk. Every single man I talked to talk to
me for at least an hour and a half, if
not four hours, and could go on for days.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
You break this up and the book is called and
I really am by the way, I'm buying a copy
of your book.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I am going to read. I find all this stuff.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Well, I see, I like to buy because I'm an
author too, and I like to You can send me
as signed one, but I'm going on Amazon. I'm going
on Amazon to help out the numbers here, but men
speak out on dating, marriage, and life in America. I
don't know if you know this. I had an experience
on the Bill Mahers show, so it's very public where
the subject set by the host Bill of course, Bill
(11:43):
Marshow was do Democrats have a problem with masculinity and
with sort of masculine essentially masculinity in the electorate going
into the election? This is in September of twenty eighty four.
And I started to say, you know, we asked this
is a problem because masculinity can only be toxic masculinity.
(12:05):
And on que a black female panelist was you know,
I said, you know, things like courage or you know,
these are all devalued and you can't She starts saying,
what about women and what about minorities?
Speaker 4 (12:16):
This is what you can't even have a conversation.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I'm not even allowed to talk about what could be
good about masculinity without people wanting to talk about either
not men or talk about other things, or talk about
toxic masculinity.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
How do we break away from this?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
It almost feels like there's a there's a madness here
and it's a problem. It's a Democrat party problem. It's
a real one, it.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Is, and it's a kind of a problem on both sides.
Republicans tend to do what I call white nighting. They
will be shivelerous towards women or think that women have
to win custody of their children, or we have to
play kay put women on a pedestal.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
So there's that opposite problem, right.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Well, the biggest problem is coming, i believe, from the
Democrats in the sense that they view they really don't
view men's abilities as anything. They want to look down
on it and just say it's part of the patriarchy,
not looking at all the wonderful things that men do,
men keep the society going.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Nobody sees it. It's all behind the lines.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
People are out there doing work every day on our
roads everywhere, and people don't want to see it.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
But I agree with what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And one reason I write the books that I do
is people say, well, why is a woman writing a book?
It's because people sometimes, especially when I wrote my last
book over thirteen years ago, people will sort of listen
because they don't quite know what to do. If a
woman is talking men's rights, right, what do you do?
Like somebody might yell at a guy, or he might
It's very difficult. If a man says anything, he might
be tagged as a misogynist. He could lose his job,
(13:44):
he could have a problem, he could not get his degree.
And that's what I talk to the men about, all
the things that happen to them. When they do speak up.
You ask how we get past this problem? But I
think the problem is I think the issue is what
we're doing right now. You have to speak up, and
I don't care. I mean, there have been lots of
times where I've boken up and I know, you know what,
I'm never gonna work for this person again, or you
know what, might get kicked out of here.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
If that's okay, I've accepted that's part of the deal. Unfortunately,
it shouldn't be that way to do.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Do women can I can? I ask you? Sorry? So
do women? Do you feel like there's a reflexive when
I say women?
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Obviously it's half the you know, there's like seven billion
people in the world, and about half of them are women.
So I mean we're generalizing, but I'm asking for your
in your experience here in America, I think I detect
a southern accent. I'm guessing you live in like Tennessee
or a similar locale Tennessee.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
There we go. Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
So, so when women come up to you, do you
find that overall or in the majority do they you know,
is there like a reflexive attack of the message you
have or do you think that there's actually more of
a split of women who say what you're saying here?
Because I know men are going to love this book.
This is this is I mean, I'm sitting here saying
(14:57):
men are going to say. Finally someone's saying that. What
do women say about your message?
Speaker 4 (15:03):
Though?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I think women's stop and listen because I didn't used
to think that they did, and sometimes they would try
to talk back, but I think that they really want
to understand. I think at this point in our society,
there's so many women out there who are just they
don't understand what's happening. And I have to say that
a lot of times it's really good women who they
can't get a man. They literally can't find a guy
for themselves, and they're kind of wondering what's happening.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
The other thing I get is.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
A lot of moms who are have sons and they
are very, very interested in the topic, and so they
do understand. And I think the old older women do
understand who have sons. I do think the younger women
are starting to understand because they do have sons and
they do have some empathy and understanding. I used to
get a lot more at texts in the early days.
I don't much anymore. I don't really listen, so I
(15:46):
don't know. I do know that once, for example, there's
a rapper TI.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
I don't know if you know who he is.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Oh, sure, sure, I've found with some of his work.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I didn't know who he was.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
But apparently he saw my first book and he put
up a you know, a tweet about it was Twitter
back then. He put up a tweet about it, and
I literally got all kinds of messages from his from
his wife, time, from the wife's I think they were
friends or fans.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
I don't know what they were.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Wait, did he hate the book or did he like
the book?
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Oh? He loved my book?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
I figured, okay, I thought he'd probably yeah, he loved
the book.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I can find the tweet for you.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
But it was something like it was just something from
the book talking about how not all men should be married,
and then the incentives for marriage were very difficult, and
sometimes things don't work out, you know, and all the
women got really angry, and they did write me and
tell me off.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I suppose I don't really care, But so yes, are
there people like that? Yes? But are there are there
also on the other side women who do care.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
And one thing I want to say is with this book,
I've been surprised more women.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Nobody.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Women didn't really read Men on Strike my first book,
But this book, I've noticed it's more women writing me.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I noticed a couple, like some of.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
The reviews on Amazon were more from women saying, you know,
I'm a millennial wife and I read your book.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
It really helped me understand my husband.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Or there was one person who said, I have a son,
I'm trying to go through a court case with him,
and I didn't know that men were so discriminated against.
So I think women are starting to really see it's
affecting them. It's affecting people. But one thing I want
to say, unlike some of the other you know, experts
in this area, they're always talking there and trying to say like, oh,
I'm just looking out for women, it's really I really
(17:18):
in my ability, I mean just as a person, as
a psychologist, and I care about men like I honestly
had always, I guess because going back to my dad,
I just really had.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
A great dad.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And I just I fund men and what they do
fascinating and so important to our society, to the civilization
of the United States of America. And I don't understand
how other people don't feel this way, but they don't
understand the implications of alienating this many men from the society.
I just want to say one more thing is that
(17:51):
many men are not becoming fathers anymore. And of those men,
there are one out of four men who they say
will never be a dad. And those guys who were
twenty five to forty five, there's something like now more
than a fourth aren't fathers, and that didn't used to
be the case. And a lot of men are having
to miss out on this, and a lot of women
are missing out too, And I think that's such an
(18:11):
unfortunate thing. And we'll see how it all plays out,
but I'm hoping that things will turn around.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Can I tell you something from from my own from
my own experience, and this is, you know, you know,
It's funny because Carol Markowitz, who's a great friend of
mine and also right, yeah, she does a great show,
and and you know her and I we it's funny
because I think she knew that I would enjoy talking
about this, because I love talking to her about this
stuff because you know, we're both now past forty, have families,
have kids, yeah, and and so we can kind of
(18:39):
reflect on all of this. And one thing that I
that I really was very aware of, at least in
New York City, was that there was like I was,
even though I was somebody who was clearly ambitious and
working hard, for a lot of women in my what
I would consider peer group that I came across in
New York because I was originally working for the government,
(19:01):
so I had a job and a night you know,
an income and health benefits, whatever. But I wasn't I
wasn't economically viable as a partner for a lot of
women who wanted the money, they wanted the security. Now,
and I mean at twenty eight or you know, twenty
six or third, you know, at a young age, there
(19:23):
was a sense that a lot of women just sort
of were immediately drawn to and now maybe this is
more of a New York thing.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
But I don't.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Understand how people if everyone wants a guy or only
will marry a guy who is well off whatever that
means to an individual, but you know, usually in America
it means like two fifty three hundred ka. It depends
where you are, city and everything else. But you know,
making like a top five percent kind of income with
(19:52):
a top five percent height with it.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I've told women who have told me what their parameters are.
I'm like, you're looking for a one in ten thousand,
you know that.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Right, It's not one in ten thousand.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
They literally have statistics if you look on TikTok or anything.
Even some of the guys when I would meet with them,
they'd hand me the statistics and it's something like one
point two guys out of one hundred thousand had these things.
There's even that many men over six feet tall. Well,
you know, And I think a lot of it is
the media because people are going on TikTok and I'll
see interviews with women and somebody, a woman or man.
An interviewer will ask the woman, well, what do you
(20:23):
think the average man in the US makes? Your age
twenty eight oh, you know, one hundred and fifty thousand.
Well the average man makes like fifty thousand dollars or less. Okay,
that would be a great salary. So they're asking for
things that aren't available.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
And all these.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Women are told And the other thing is women if
there are six, they all think they're tens.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
I don't know when it comes.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Up with it, but now the culture has told them this.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Well, you know, even the like the embrace of which
now with GLPS, isn't it funny that there is a
real like medical help to get not fat. The whole
embrace of fat embracing wasn't for men. That was purely
that was just a woman driven phenomenon, like love me
at two hundred and fifty pounds and five foot three,
Like that's what we were being.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Told, right, But to be told that because people they're
always told that the patriarch it's bad. Men are bad,
and men are supposed to do anything that women tell
them to do. And it's driven by the fact that
women vote, women have Carrie, they spend most of the money.
And I got to tell you it's a lot easier
to hustle and make money off women than it is
off men. Men are more, you know, and the way
(21:25):
that people perceive the government, women perceive the government in
a different way. That was one of the interesting things
in my book. The younger men particularly understood that women
use the government to pay for themselves. Men want the
government to sort of stay out of their way and
let them be an entrepreneur, let them go and do
the things they.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Want to do.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
And I could go into so many other issues about it,
but I mean, that would be an all day out there.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
I don't know if you know, I don't know if
you know Anne Culter are familiar with their work, but
I know Anne pretty well, and she of Court well.
She always she says that that for liberal women, the
government is their boyfriend. That's always there. The boyfriend pay.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
For things daddy that they always hated. But they just
get the government to pay for themselves. And that's exactly
what That's exactly true. I remember having this conversation over
thirteen years ago with Tucker Carlson on Fox and we
were talking about the same thing, and they were He
was totally disgusted at the time.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
I remember him being like, oh my gosh, But I
was like, women.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Use the government to pay for themselves, and they want
a guy who can pay for her too, And somehow
it's kind of like what you were saying, what do
you bring into the table, And women don't think they
have to bring anything to the table anymore. They want
the guy to work, they want him to take care
of the kids, they want him to have the job
making the money, and the man is kind of like
men at this point are sort of like, oh my god,
like what's in it for me?
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Or it's so expensive to be this they just give up.
So it's a difficult situation.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I have never seen I see the mismatch that I observed,
and again not just in my own experience, but I
have a lot of friends from my generation in New
York who are still unmarried. I mean, I'm forty four,
so you know, your marriage rates go down. I'm married,
I've got a wife and a kid, but a lot
of my friends are unmarried. A lot of the women
I know are unmarried. And marriage rate for women after
(23:02):
forty and certainly family formation goes way way, way, way,
way way down for biological reasons.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And do you know that the Institute for Families just
found out that I think it's something like forty percent
of women in their twenties expect to never have children.
And they's estimating that about the case and I'm like,
that have forty percent. I don't know how that will
play out, but that's a lot. Yes, women themselves don't
feel like they're going to have kids.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It's an astonishingly high number. And I've heard similar things,
by the way, But the biggest thing that I see,
I honestly I think, Okay, so see we're supposed to
go like, by the way, I'm already we've.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Gone way over here, Helen.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
So I really enjoyed talking about this, but I was
going to say, I think the biggest uh, the the
neutron bomb that has gone off among you know, women
in their lives in the twenty first century. The instagramification
of everything, both the immediate gratification that young women get from,
you know, at the peak of their beauty and their desirability,
(24:02):
you know, constantly having strangers, Oh you're amazing. Oh I'd
fly you to you know, I'd fly you to Saint
Bart's and we'd be on my yacht. And you know,
professional basketball players sliding into their dms or football or
you know, you name the sport. Oh you know, when
I'm in town, all these all this distraction and all
of this, honestly, this digital narcissism, and it's just really hard.
(24:23):
I think a lot of people, a lot of young women,
become kind of addicted to this. I know people don't
want to hear this, but this is what I observe.
And then they turn around at thirty seven ish.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
And go, I want to I want to go. I
want now. I want the guy.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You know, I could have had the guy before, but
now I want the guy who's you know, stable, great job.
You know, he's a surgeon, he's a nice guy that
man wants.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
To twenty five year old who's not going to bother
him and is just happy to have him around.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
What you just said is what women will not be told.
Millions of women will not be told by society.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
But and it is real.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Can listen to the show as a guy, can they
can walk away? And I would leave that with and
you know, if people want to change to have a
happy life, the worst thing you can do is get
on the internet and listen to your girlfriends or whatever
telling you you go girl, because you know what what
sounds good when you're twenty something isn't going to sound
good when you're thirty something and can't have any kids
(25:16):
and are sad, and I just you know, it's it's for.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
The men too. The men.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I mean, I mean so many fabulous, average what people
would call average guys that are not average. I mean,
the people I talked to in the book were working
in medical fields, they were working in all kinds of fields,
and they're good guys. And those good guys and good
women are left with nobody, and that's what's happening. And
then the people who are narcissistic, like you said, are
just aging out and it's just a it's a mismatch.
(25:44):
And I think if people don't, all you can do
is in your individual life is is try like rethink
what you're doing, and you know you'll have a happier
life if you are willing to humanize people. I think
we've dehumanized men and women and it's really a hard situation.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
His side, men speak out on dating, marriage, and life
in America. I am buying it right as we are
closing out here. I'm gonna go on Amazon. I get
a copy Helen Smith, Helen great book. Thank you for
being here. I've actually got to say a word here
for our sponsor, Supersure. Most businesses rely on business insurance
when things go wrong, and that's one way to go.
But do you even understand what your business insurance policy
(26:24):
covers and what it doesn't. This is why you need
somebody who's there for you year round, not once a
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(26:45):
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that's supershort dot com slash buck today paid for by
super Short Insurance Agency, LLC, a license insurance agency. Helen
(27:08):
Smith the Great book His Side. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it
Host
Buck Sexton
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