September 1, 2026 • 29 mins
With the Lindsay Clancy jury still unable to reach a unanimous verdict, Sean looks beyond this single case to what its outcome could mean for the criminal justice system. Nancy Grace and Tiffany Smiley debate intent, postpartum psychosis, personal responsibility, failures in mental-health care, and whether the defense strategy could become a model for future murder cases. The discussion centers on the difficult line between recognizing genuine mental illness and preserving accountability when innocent lives are lost.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, News Roundup and Information Overload Hour. Here's our
toll-free telephone number. It's 800-941-SHAWN if you want to be
a part of the program. All right, so with all
the developments now in the Lindsey Clancy case, you know,
starting with the biggest sign and symptom of, you know,
(00:24):
what's to be and what the judge said here, So
the judge comes out early today, just to recap, tells
the Lindsay Clancy juries that say that they cannot reach
a unanimous verdict to go back in and start deliberating.
And that was the beginning of our day.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Members of the jury, I've got your question. And the
question is, after many hours of deliberation, we are unable
to come to a unanimous decision. I brought you back
out because I know that this was a long trial.
I know there were over 80 witnesses.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
There were over 300 exhibits.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
But because of that, I'm going to ask you to
go back out, keeping in mind all the instructions that
I gave you, to go out and to continue your
deliberations at this time.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
All right?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
And so with that, I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Going to ask you to go back out. Like I said,
keep in mind the instructions I gave you, reviewing the evidence,
and I'd ask you to resume your deliberations at this time.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Okay? Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
All right. Common occurrence, predictable result. And, you know, here
we find ourselves. Where are we? I don't think this
is going to be the end of cases like this.
There was an article yesterday how I think this case
was in North Carolina, how more and more attorneys are adopting,
(01:50):
you know, this the same strategy defense that they watched
in the case of our friend Mr. Reddington. Obviously, he's
no fan of mine or of Nancy Grace's, which we
went into great specificity and detail yesterday. And, you know,
is that problematic? Now, the reason that I think we
need a recap of this and a reanalysis of this,
(02:12):
because this is going to be something we're going to
see and hear more and more of. I've never thought anybody...
that could admit to killing three people, let alone your
own three children, is by definition sane. So not guilty
by reason of insanity would be applicable in any case.
(02:35):
Here to debate this, we have Nancy Grace, of course,
with Crime Stories on Fox One, and Tiffany Smiley, who
is a Republican, friend of the program, but took a
very different position recently. in terms of her analysis of
this case. Thank you both for being here, but I
(02:55):
think the overriding issues are gonna be ones that we
face for many, many decades to come, unfortunately, because I
really have a problem with all of this. But Tiffany,
I get it. You used to be a triage nurse.
All of my sisters were nurses. One worked extensively and
for years in an emergency room situation. I get it,
(03:17):
but at the end of the day, The question is
about the law, and the law was clear, and the
law was clear on if the prosecution, the burden was
on them to prove intent, which I believe they met
that burden.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, well, look, Sean, I mean, she needs to be
held accountable, and justice absolutely needs to be served, and
this case should not be taken as a free pass, right,
for lawyers in the future in similar sort of cases.
But there's a bigger overarching question that I've tried to ask.
is how do we make sure this does not happen again?
(03:51):
I have worked in triage. I have worked in women's health,
emergency rooms. Our healthcare system is inundated with a mental
health crisis. When I was working, it was nearly 15
years ago. And it was really bad then. And it's
worse now. And I have a lot of questions about
this case. I have a lot of questions about women's
(04:11):
healthcare and our assessment of it and our awareness of
it and just the holistic approach of it. This woman
clearly had postpartum depression, but I think the question needs
to be asked, did she have it with her first child?
And it got swept under the rug and she wasn't
treated properly. And then it subsequently got worse. And then
her home life was not a healthy situation. Maybe her
(04:34):
caretakers didn't know how to address the issue. Maybe it's
a healthcare breakdown, right? Where She should have been institutionalized.
This woman should not have been alone with her children.
And even though she was on copious amounts of drugs,
only three in her system, Sean, we also know when
you stop medications, they can have an adverse reaction. So
where was the breakdown? And how do we make sure
(04:55):
this never happens again? Because there are three innocent, beautiful
souls that are now dead. And I think I told
you last week that I anticipated it would be a
hung jury. And we'll have to have a retry. And
now how do we retry it with the public weighing
in on this, the national attention that is now weighing
(05:17):
in on this case? Will we get the real answers?
And will we come to a place in this country
where we either fix our medical system, we understand postpartum
depression and research and back women in it, and make
sure that this never, ever happens again?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
You know, Nancy, I think you and I are more
on the same page in as much as You know,
we're supposed to believe after she plotted, schemed and planned
this thing in its entirety and sent the husband out
to go to the drugstore after calling the drugstore, which
to me indicates premeditation. And then even called, you know,
(05:53):
in the process or right after she's killing these three kids.
that you cannot tell me that for that little window
of time that this psychosis thing came into play, and
then you add to that everything that she looked up
in terms of the Internet, in terms of her own illness,
but how does one, with the carotid artery, and how
(06:18):
do you slit somebody's throat, etc.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
etc.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Um, so I, I can understand. Also, you've got to
look at the venue in any case, Nancy, you know,
there's better than anybody is, uh, as a victim's advocate,
being a victim, and as a former prosecutor. The venue
means everything. This happens in Massachusetts, in Plymouth. They don't
have a single elected Republican in Washington from that entire state.
(06:44):
That governor just signed into law an infanticide bill where
a woman can have an abortion up to the moment
of birth. I don't think you're getting, you know, many
conservatives in that jury pool.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Well, I know one thing firsthand now. I know how
Tiffany can give an amazing and mesmerizing speech. That was amazing,
what you just said, and much of it true. But
that is not the issue that brings us here today.
The issue today is Lindsay Clancy and what happened to
(07:21):
her three children. Was she not guilty by mistake? reason
of insanity at the time she murdered them. That she
murdered them is not an issue. She and her lawyer
say she did it. As much as internet conspiracy theorists
would like to blame the husband, no, he had nothing
(07:42):
to do with it. She planned this starting early on.
And when Tiffany asked, was she getting treatment? She was
getting treatment. There were caregivers, there were babysitters, there were nannies,
there were cleaners, her own sister, a certified therapist that
talked to her practically daily and did not think she
(08:02):
should be hospitalized. The victim here is not Lindsay Clancy.
The victims are Dawson, Callen, and Cora. Those are the victims,
and we have lost sight of that. And our big
brouhaha about Lindsey Clancy. We're forgetting the children whose necks
(08:23):
were shrunken down two inches wide from the extreme ligature
strangulation they endured face down in their basement at the
hands of their mother. I hate to be harsh in
this manner when I don't. If I don't have to be,
this is something I would say to convince a jury.
(08:44):
But the reality is they died a horrific and painful death.
And she planned it. No one wants to accept that
because we don't like to think of a mother killing
her children. We deem she must be crazy. Well, she wasn't.
And it'll be a cold day in H-E-double-L from what
I know about psychosis, which medical experts have told me
(09:06):
is like when you have a stroke, you really don't
know what happened. You've seen those anchors on TV and
they start They don't make any sense. They're looking around.
They're having a stroke. They don't know what they're doing.
They have no memory. That's what psychosis is. It's not
postpartum depression. It is a break from reality. And you
cannot tell me that she hears a voice for the
(09:28):
first and last time. The moment her husband slams the door,
kill your children, she does it. And in less than
an hour, he's back. They're dead. And the voice is
never heard again.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
N-O.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Tiffany?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Yeah, well, look, you know, the prosecution went for a
first degree murder, right? And they had obviously had a
very hard time trying to prove that as evidenced by
what we are seeing with a potential hung jury. How
were they going to, I think it's like, how would
they prove that a sane, rational mother would do the
(10:05):
most unrational thing imaginable?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
But Tiffany, if I may just interject, and then I
want you to pick up where you are. Okay. If
anybody commits murder, By definition, aren't they kind of insane?
Don't you have to be insane? There's something really wrong
with a person in cold blood that can kill anybody?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
But this is a woman who was in so much
pain and torment that her only option out in this
life was to kill her children and kill herself.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Slow down. Her only option.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
That in her mind.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So human beings then, by definition, is what you're saying,
have no control over their behavior at the end of
the day, because by definition, somebody that will murder another
person is is by is insane by definition.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
In her mind at that time, that was clearly her
only option to end.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
But isn't that every killer? Couldn't it be used in
every case?
Speaker 4 (11:11):
You're talking about. a woman who documented that she was
having postpartum issues, documenting that she had issues going to
the doctor, getting medication.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
So a premeditated murder, as long as you document that
you're feeling A, B, C, D, E, and F, and
look up the right things ahead of time, if you're
that evil and sinister, you can use the same defense
and you should get a result that would be favorable
for you. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Evil, it's sick, and it should... never happen again. But
there is a reason that the prosecution, what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
But should there be consequences? In other words, or are
we determining here that people have no control over their
own behavior and there's no individual responsibility?
Speaker 4 (11:59):
He clearly had... Sean, she will be held accountable and
she will be. My whole point, and you know.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Massachusetts. Okay. Good luck with that. We should start a
pool when she'll be out.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Or she'll be in an institution for the rest of
her life outside of public and living.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
You mean like John Hinckley who attempted to kill Ronald Reagan?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
I couldn't.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
It's torturous. And she has to face these consequences and
she will. I guess what I'm trying to say is
the prosecution is trying to prove to these jurors first
degree murder. And it's clear that they had a hard time.
You know, a couple of weeks ago, I was speaking
with a legal analyst and there were five of us
in the group. Each of us approached this case from
a different perspective. And we said right then and there,
(12:47):
I guarantee you it will be a hung jury.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, I mean, the reality is the judge threw them,
as we discussed earlier, this lifeline again and again, which
gave them the other options. Nancy, I'm worried that, you know,
by definition, if somebody now is devious and evil enough,
and I think you have to be evil to kill somebody,
that if they just chronicle it properly and look up
(13:10):
the right terms on the Internet, that this defense is
going to be used over and over again.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
It will be. And the fact that we're hearing she
will be held accountable because she will be held accountable.
That is what we call in the law a non sequitur.
It doesn't follow. It doesn't make sense. Let me point out,
we always hear about Andrea Yates, how she still wants
to wait. Well, what about Deanna Laney? She bludgeoned her
(13:36):
two boys dead, left the other, the baby, with permanent
brain damage and vision problems. She was behind bars in
a mental facility for a period of about five to
seven years and is walking free amongst us right now,
you pointed out, Hinkley. So I don't call that accountable.
There are three coffins, three dead people sentenced to that
(14:00):
coffin from now on, and she has the ability to
walk free. Do I feel sorry for what Lindsay Clancy
has endured? Yes, I do. Her children are gone. I
don't think you could do anything worse to me than
take away my children. They're gone and at her own hand.
(14:21):
And she has to live with that forever in her
own prison cell, in her mind. But though I feel
sorry for her, the law is clear. The law is clear.
There was intent. She performed the act and she needs
to go to jail for life. Period. The end.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Well, that won't happen. 800-941-SHAWN, our number if you want
to be a part of the program. This debate is
too important. Moving forward, the impact of all of this,
I think the consequences are going to be more severe
than we're anticipating even today. And I think that we're
going to see case after case after case emerge with
(14:59):
a lot of similarities. I hope I'm wrong. All right,
quick break. Right back. We'll continue straight ahead. 800-941-SHAWN is
our number. All right, so the jury, quickly to recap,
couldn't reach a verdict, a unanimous verdict, told the judge.
The judge asked them to continue deliberations. They did so
for many hours today, and they have now convened for
the day. But we continue. This is going to have
(15:21):
long-term ramifications. And here to discuss both sides of it,
Nancy Grace. We continue with her and with Tiffany Smiley.
By the way, I want to reiterate something I said
yesterday on both radio and TV about Nancy Grace. Because
Nancy Grace was attacked. by Lindsay Clancy's attorney, Kevin Reddington,
as I was attacked. But she was attacked more viciously
(15:44):
than me. And the queen of mean. And, you know,
for those that never got a chance to watch my
podcast with Nancy, please watch it, you know, wherever you
get your video podcasts. Because we go into great detail
and specificity how her entire life and her life's trajectory
was altered. Because she was 19 years old. And her
(16:08):
fiance was murdered. I don't think she ever planned to
be a victim's advocate the way she's become or as
passionate about these issues as she is. But for this
guy to make these attacks when she is not only
a victim of a horrible crime herself, but has spent
(16:30):
decades of her life being a prosecutor and a victim's advocate,
I just think is vile, uncalled for. And obviously, he
doesn't know or care about who Nancy Grace really is. And,
you know, the more I thought about this, the more
angry I get. I don't care when people attack me,
but when they attack my friends, it really bothers me, Nancy.
(16:53):
And let me play this for example.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
It's been, obviously, a long weekend, okay? You're all journalists, reporters,
news media, and this weekend, has been horrific with the coverage.
And by that I mean Mr. Hannity with his men
discussing every little inch of Lindsay's symptoms and criticizing Nancy Grace,
(17:23):
to coin a phrase, the queen of mean, who misrepresents facts.
I challenge Nancy Grace to show us where Lindsay Clancy
ever said Ever Google how to kill? Words that came
out of her mouth. And these things hurt.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
We have had a total of seven women, many of them,
including our two guests, Tiffany Smiley and Nancy Grace, on
my TV show and on this radio show talking about
this case. Me and my men. He obviously just is wrong.
I don't know how you interpret this. How to slit
(18:04):
your throat to die. I don't know how you may
interpret it, but I interpret that as somebody looking for, wait,
can you turn airbags off on a Kia Sorento? Of course,
planning out, mapping out, timing out visa searches on Apple
Maps to allegedly calculate the driving times and the distance
(18:26):
to the pharmacy. that she purposely sent her husband on
a trip to, CVS Pharmacy, kids Miralax, that to me
shows intent and shows premeditation. That's my humble opinion. I'm
allowed to have an opinion. What is the carotid artery? Oh,
why would somebody want to know what a carotid artery is?
(18:50):
You would think a nurse would know that, but that's
separate and apart. But Nancy, I just wanted to say,
I thought this was vile, unfair, untrue. And it bothers me,
especially you. You described to me you went down to
80 pounds when you were 19 years old after your
fiance was murdered and that you almost didn't survive this.
(19:12):
And it altered your life in ways that you didn't
date for decades until you met the love of your life,
your current husband, and have these two beautiful children. And
for him to say that is so over the top
and beyond the pale to me.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Yes, Sean, I try. And it's hard not to think
back on that time because I can slip back into
a major depression. And I have children to think of now.
And yes, they're growing up, but they still need their mother.
(19:46):
And I cannot be part of a severe depression. that
I can't get out of. It's just very dangerous for
me to even consider it. But what you said is true.
I lost down to 89 pounds, relationships, other people. Nothing
meant anything to me. I hate to even remember it.
(20:07):
I remember a I had my mother turn off all
the TVs and the stereo. I couldn't stand to hear.
I couldn't even stand to hear the clock ticking. She
had to stop the clock. I couldn't take it. My
plan to be an English Shakespearean literature professor ended. I
(20:30):
didn't know what I was going to do until I
decided to go to law school to help other crime victims.
That was the first time I had ever even been
in a courthouse to be a witness at Keith's murder trial,
and I will never forget it as long as I live.
And in this case, I am not made of stone.
(20:52):
I believe that Lindsay Clancy had depression. I don't know
what demon she was fighting, but as an officer of
the court for crime victims, I have to tell it
like it is. And Reddington... Or anybody else can hate me.
I've had a string of defense attorneys hate me. From
what I understand, they were dancing in the halls at
(21:13):
the public defender's office when I left to go to
court TV. So fine, hate me. I can't say I
don't care, but I can't afford to care. I can't
let anything stop me from telling the truth, and the
truth is she had intent. Reddington attacked me saying she
did not Google how to kill. Specifically, she Googled how
(21:34):
to slit your throat to die. Can you turn off airbags?
Can you treat a sociopath? She, as you said, Apple
mapped her husband's route that she sent him on to
determine exactly how long she would have to kill the children.
Can you treat a sociopath? She looked up symptoms that
(21:58):
she later had, hallucinations, bipolar, psychosis symptoms, intrusive thoughts, and
so much more. It all equals intent. The children are dead.
They suffered a horrific death. I can't bring myself to
describe again what happened to their little necks once those
(22:21):
exercise bands were removed. They were pulled so tightly. It's horrific.
That's what's horrific.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
This is the problem I have with the whole system, Tiffany,
at the end of the day. And that is there's
so much surrounding this. And, you know, there's a lot
of people out there with a lot of problems in life.
I'm not disputing, you know, your medical background. I'm not
disputing we should look at broader issues. I don't think
(22:53):
that the answer is ever going to be found. in
any government-run healthcare system or any system. The system failed her,
the doctors failed her, the drugs failed her. And then
the worst part to me was when this attorney, Mr. Reddington,
came out and said, in closing arguments, that the soul
(23:15):
of this woman, meaning his client, Lindsay Clancy, the soul
of this client was ripped from her by these prosecutors
in this case. Prosecutors are trying to bring... What about
the souls of the three children? I mean, I felt
that on his end was completely heartless, distant, out of touch,
(23:37):
out of step with the full actions of his client.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Yeah, I mean, this case is horrific. I hate that
we're even having to talk about it, that it even happened,
that these three beautiful babies are gone, souls gone from
this earth. And Quite frankly, their mother didn't even want
to be alive either. She wished she was dead. And,
you know, I would hope that we could be better.
(24:05):
I would hope that we could say that this would
never happen again. I would hope that our medical system
could improve in this country. We are one of the
most medicated people on earth in this country. And we
clearly are missing the mark. I think I mentioned to
you that I was working in triage when Obamacare rolled down,
(24:25):
and we were forced to see more patients with less time.
When you're talking about women and women's health care, that
is not a good thing. That doesn't equal good outcomes
for anyone. And if now we're just a society where
we push meds and say, go out the door, you'll
be fine, that's not good either. And so I guess
(24:46):
my overarching view of this case is I haven't just
picked a side and argued that until the day is gone.
But trying to have this conversation and saying, where did
the breakdown happen? Clearly, this woman has demons. And like
I mentioned earlier, felt that the only option in her
(25:07):
life was to kill her children and herself. Let's ask
how we got there.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Can I ask you this? Shouldn't that question be asked
in every murder case?
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Okay. And if it is, can't you come to a
conclusion or, you know, following that logic, can't you say, uh,
this individual, uh, he was crying out for help. This individual,
when the, when the, when the person, the murderer was young, um,
he used to kill cats and dogs and birds, um,
And that was an indication and nobody intervened and the
(25:43):
system failed this person, et cetera, et cetera. I mean,
there's no end to this. At what point does the
concept and belief in individual personal responsibility come into play?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Yes, that clearly exists, but she was having issues and
postpartum issues. And I think that's, That's where the prosecution
had a hard time presenting the first degree murder is
that there's just not enough known about it. People are
(26:17):
scared of it. People don't maybe our medical system.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
You're only applying it to this case. And I'm arguing
that it's much broader than that. By definition, you kill somebody.
You're off. You're not well.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
Agreed.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
OK, so then it should be applicable on it. You know,
we can go into the past of every single murderer
and we're going to come up with stuff, warning signs,
people that should have known the system that broke down.
I mean, right at the end of the day, there's
still evil in the heart of that person.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
But if she was in a mental psychosis place that
just continued to get worse and didn't have the adequate
treatment or should have been institutionalized, she was institutionalized and
then she was released. Why was that issue there?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Well, I mean, at the end of the day, this
is also somebody that should have had knowledge where, in
other words, if you're a nurse and you're documenting with
copious notes, all the medications that you're taking when you're
taking them, um, you know, there's a certain intellectual knowledge
that you would expect any, any person that's in that
position will apply. I mean, I'm sure as a nurse,
(27:26):
you know, you knew about medications, um, So, I mean,
it gets rather complicated. Look, I appreciate the thoughtful hour
that we've spent on this because I think that this
is not going away.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
No.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I think that we are going to hear one Lindsay,
we'll refer to it as the Lindsay Clancy defense moving forward,
one after another. And as far as, you know, a
system that is going to allow this person to ever
walk the streets, that to me, is a massive, massive
(28:01):
flaw in the system of justice. Justice has to be served.
There will be no long-term justice, in my view, for
those three children that were strangled to death. But I
do appreciate the thoughtful debate. Tiffany, I prefer when we
usually agree. Nancy Grace, a love and prayers to you.
I know this actually probably unfortunately, brings back very, very
(28:26):
painful memories in your life. And for that, I apologize.
And you did not deserve what this defense attorney said
about you. And for that, I'm sorry, too. All right,
that's going to wrap things up for today. Great Hannity tonight,
9 Eastern on the Fox News Channel. First of all,
the jury tells the judge they can't come to unanimous
(28:47):
verdict in the Lindsey Clancy trial, he says, go back
to deliberations. They did so for hours. They have convened
for the day. How do you interpret that? We'll have
full analysis. Nancy Grace and others. John Fetterman is on tonight.
Scott Besson is on tonight. Tommy Lahren is on tonight.
I mean, I promise you, news you'll never get from
the state-run, abusively corrupt legacy media mob. Nine East on Hannity.
(29:11):
Set your DVR. We'll see you tonight. Back here tomorrow.
Thank you for making this show possible.
All right, News Roundup and Information Overload Hour. Here's our
toll-free telephone number. It's 800-941-SHAWN if you want to be
a part of the program. All right, so with all
the developments now in the Lindsey Clancy case, you know,
starting with the biggest sign and symptom of, you know,
(00:24):
what's to be and what the judge said here, So
the judge comes out early today, just to recap, tells
the Lindsay Clancy juries that say that they cannot reach
a unanimous verdict to go back in and start deliberating.
And that was the beginning of our day.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Members of the jury, I've got your question. And the
question is, after many hours of deliberation, we are unable
to come to a unanimous decision. I brought you back
out because I know that this was a long trial.
I know there were over 80 witnesses.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
There were over 300 exhibits.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
But because of that, I'm going to ask you to
go back out, keeping in mind all the instructions that
I gave you, to go out and to continue your
deliberations at this time.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
All right?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
And so with that, I'm.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Going to ask you to go back out. Like I said,
keep in mind the instructions I gave you, reviewing the evidence,
and I'd ask you to resume your deliberations at this time.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Okay? Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
All right. Common occurrence, predictable result. And, you know, here
we find ourselves. Where are we? I don't think this
is going to be the end of cases like this.
There was an article yesterday how I think this case
was in North Carolina, how more and more attorneys are adopting,
(01:50):
you know, this the same strategy defense that they watched
in the case of our friend Mr. Reddington. Obviously, he's
no fan of mine or of Nancy Grace's, which we
went into great specificity and detail yesterday. And, you know,
is that problematic? Now, the reason that I think we
need a recap of this and a reanalysis of this,
(02:12):
because this is going to be something we're going to
see and hear more and more of. I've never thought anybody...
that could admit to killing three people, let alone your
own three children, is by definition sane. So not guilty
by reason of insanity would be applicable in any case.
(02:35):
Here to debate this, we have Nancy Grace, of course,
with Crime Stories on Fox One, and Tiffany Smiley, who
is a Republican, friend of the program, but took a
very different position recently. in terms of her analysis of
this case. Thank you both for being here, but I
(02:55):
think the overriding issues are gonna be ones that we
face for many, many decades to come, unfortunately, because I
really have a problem with all of this. But Tiffany,
I get it. You used to be a triage nurse.
All of my sisters were nurses. One worked extensively and
for years in an emergency room situation. I get it,
(03:17):
but at the end of the day, The question is
about the law, and the law was clear, and the
law was clear on if the prosecution, the burden was
on them to prove intent, which I believe they met
that burden.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, well, look, Sean, I mean, she needs to be
held accountable, and justice absolutely needs to be served, and
this case should not be taken as a free pass, right,
for lawyers in the future in similar sort of cases.
But there's a bigger overarching question that I've tried to ask.
is how do we make sure this does not happen again?
(03:51):
I have worked in triage. I have worked in women's health,
emergency rooms. Our healthcare system is inundated with a mental
health crisis. When I was working, it was nearly 15
years ago. And it was really bad then. And it's
worse now. And I have a lot of questions about
this case. I have a lot of questions about women's
(04:11):
healthcare and our assessment of it and our awareness of
it and just the holistic approach of it. This woman
clearly had postpartum depression, but I think the question needs
to be asked, did she have it with her first child?
And it got swept under the rug and she wasn't
treated properly. And then it subsequently got worse. And then
her home life was not a healthy situation. Maybe her
(04:34):
caretakers didn't know how to address the issue. Maybe it's
a healthcare breakdown, right? Where She should have been institutionalized.
This woman should not have been alone with her children.
And even though she was on copious amounts of drugs,
only three in her system, Sean, we also know when
you stop medications, they can have an adverse reaction. So
where was the breakdown? And how do we make sure
(04:55):
this never happens again? Because there are three innocent, beautiful
souls that are now dead. And I think I told
you last week that I anticipated it would be a
hung jury. And we'll have to have a retry. And
now how do we retry it with the public weighing
in on this, the national attention that is now weighing
(05:17):
in on this case? Will we get the real answers?
And will we come to a place in this country
where we either fix our medical system, we understand postpartum
depression and research and back women in it, and make
sure that this never, ever happens again?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
You know, Nancy, I think you and I are more
on the same page in as much as You know,
we're supposed to believe after she plotted, schemed and planned
this thing in its entirety and sent the husband out
to go to the drugstore after calling the drugstore, which
to me indicates premeditation. And then even called, you know,
(05:53):
in the process or right after she's killing these three kids.
that you cannot tell me that for that little window
of time that this psychosis thing came into play, and
then you add to that everything that she looked up
in terms of the Internet, in terms of her own illness,
but how does one, with the carotid artery, and how
(06:18):
do you slit somebody's throat, etc.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
etc.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Um, so I, I can understand. Also, you've got to
look at the venue in any case, Nancy, you know,
there's better than anybody is, uh, as a victim's advocate,
being a victim, and as a former prosecutor. The venue
means everything. This happens in Massachusetts, in Plymouth. They don't
have a single elected Republican in Washington from that entire state.
(06:44):
That governor just signed into law an infanticide bill where
a woman can have an abortion up to the moment
of birth. I don't think you're getting, you know, many
conservatives in that jury pool.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Well, I know one thing firsthand now. I know how
Tiffany can give an amazing and mesmerizing speech. That was amazing,
what you just said, and much of it true. But
that is not the issue that brings us here today.
The issue today is Lindsay Clancy and what happened to
(07:21):
her three children. Was she not guilty by mistake? reason
of insanity at the time she murdered them. That she
murdered them is not an issue. She and her lawyer
say she did it. As much as internet conspiracy theorists
would like to blame the husband, no, he had nothing
(07:42):
to do with it. She planned this starting early on.
And when Tiffany asked, was she getting treatment? She was
getting treatment. There were caregivers, there were babysitters, there were nannies,
there were cleaners, her own sister, a certified therapist that
talked to her practically daily and did not think she
(08:02):
should be hospitalized. The victim here is not Lindsay Clancy.
The victims are Dawson, Callen, and Cora. Those are the victims,
and we have lost sight of that. And our big
brouhaha about Lindsey Clancy. We're forgetting the children whose necks
(08:23):
were shrunken down two inches wide from the extreme ligature
strangulation they endured face down in their basement at the
hands of their mother. I hate to be harsh in
this manner when I don't. If I don't have to be,
this is something I would say to convince a jury.
(08:44):
But the reality is they died a horrific and painful death.
And she planned it. No one wants to accept that
because we don't like to think of a mother killing
her children. We deem she must be crazy. Well, she wasn't.
And it'll be a cold day in H-E-double-L from what
I know about psychosis, which medical experts have told me
(09:06):
is like when you have a stroke, you really don't
know what happened. You've seen those anchors on TV and
they start They don't make any sense. They're looking around.
They're having a stroke. They don't know what they're doing.
They have no memory. That's what psychosis is. It's not
postpartum depression. It is a break from reality. And you
cannot tell me that she hears a voice for the
(09:28):
first and last time. The moment her husband slams the door,
kill your children, she does it. And in less than
an hour, he's back. They're dead. And the voice is
never heard again.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
N-O.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Tiffany?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Yeah, well, look, you know, the prosecution went for a
first degree murder, right? And they had obviously had a
very hard time trying to prove that as evidenced by
what we are seeing with a potential hung jury. How
were they going to, I think it's like, how would
they prove that a sane, rational mother would do the
(10:05):
most unrational thing imaginable?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
But Tiffany, if I may just interject, and then I
want you to pick up where you are. Okay. If
anybody commits murder, By definition, aren't they kind of insane?
Don't you have to be insane? There's something really wrong
with a person in cold blood that can kill anybody?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
But this is a woman who was in so much
pain and torment that her only option out in this
life was to kill her children and kill herself.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Slow down. Her only option.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
That in her mind.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So human beings then, by definition, is what you're saying,
have no control over their behavior at the end of
the day, because by definition, somebody that will murder another
person is is by is insane by definition.
Speaker 4 (11:03):
In her mind at that time, that was clearly her
only option to end.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
But isn't that every killer? Couldn't it be used in
every case?
Speaker 4 (11:11):
You're talking about. a woman who documented that she was
having postpartum issues, documenting that she had issues going to
the doctor, getting medication.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
So a premeditated murder, as long as you document that
you're feeling A, B, C, D, E, and F, and
look up the right things ahead of time, if you're
that evil and sinister, you can use the same defense
and you should get a result that would be favorable
for you. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Evil, it's sick, and it should... never happen again. But
there is a reason that the prosecution, what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
But should there be consequences? In other words, or are
we determining here that people have no control over their
own behavior and there's no individual responsibility?
Speaker 4 (11:59):
He clearly had... Sean, she will be held accountable and
she will be. My whole point, and you know.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Massachusetts. Okay. Good luck with that. We should start a
pool when she'll be out.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Or she'll be in an institution for the rest of
her life outside of public and living.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
You mean like John Hinckley who attempted to kill Ronald Reagan?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
I couldn't.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
It's torturous. And she has to face these consequences and
she will. I guess what I'm trying to say is
the prosecution is trying to prove to these jurors first
degree murder. And it's clear that they had a hard time.
You know, a couple of weeks ago, I was speaking
with a legal analyst and there were five of us
in the group. Each of us approached this case from
a different perspective. And we said right then and there,
(12:47):
I guarantee you it will be a hung jury.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Well, I mean, the reality is the judge threw them,
as we discussed earlier, this lifeline again and again, which
gave them the other options. Nancy, I'm worried that, you know,
by definition, if somebody now is devious and evil enough,
and I think you have to be evil to kill somebody,
that if they just chronicle it properly and look up
(13:10):
the right terms on the Internet, that this defense is
going to be used over and over again.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
It will be. And the fact that we're hearing she
will be held accountable because she will be held accountable.
That is what we call in the law a non sequitur.
It doesn't follow. It doesn't make sense. Let me point out,
we always hear about Andrea Yates, how she still wants
to wait. Well, what about Deanna Laney? She bludgeoned her
(13:36):
two boys dead, left the other, the baby, with permanent
brain damage and vision problems. She was behind bars in
a mental facility for a period of about five to
seven years and is walking free amongst us right now,
you pointed out, Hinkley. So I don't call that accountable.
There are three coffins, three dead people sentenced to that
(14:00):
coffin from now on, and she has the ability to
walk free. Do I feel sorry for what Lindsay Clancy
has endured? Yes, I do. Her children are gone. I
don't think you could do anything worse to me than
take away my children. They're gone and at her own hand.
(14:21):
And she has to live with that forever in her
own prison cell, in her mind. But though I feel
sorry for her, the law is clear. The law is clear.
There was intent. She performed the act and she needs
to go to jail for life. Period. The end.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Well, that won't happen. 800-941-SHAWN, our number if you want
to be a part of the program. This debate is
too important. Moving forward, the impact of all of this,
I think the consequences are going to be more severe
than we're anticipating even today. And I think that we're
going to see case after case after case emerge with
(14:59):
a lot of similarities. I hope I'm wrong. All right,
quick break. Right back. We'll continue straight ahead. 800-941-SHAWN is
our number. All right, so the jury, quickly to recap,
couldn't reach a verdict, a unanimous verdict, told the judge.
The judge asked them to continue deliberations. They did so
for many hours today, and they have now convened for
the day. But we continue. This is going to have
(15:21):
long-term ramifications. And here to discuss both sides of it,
Nancy Grace. We continue with her and with Tiffany Smiley.
By the way, I want to reiterate something I said
yesterday on both radio and TV about Nancy Grace. Because
Nancy Grace was attacked. by Lindsay Clancy's attorney, Kevin Reddington,
as I was attacked. But she was attacked more viciously
(15:44):
than me. And the queen of mean. And, you know,
for those that never got a chance to watch my
podcast with Nancy, please watch it, you know, wherever you
get your video podcasts. Because we go into great detail
and specificity how her entire life and her life's trajectory
was altered. Because she was 19 years old. And her
(16:08):
fiance was murdered. I don't think she ever planned to
be a victim's advocate the way she's become or as
passionate about these issues as she is. But for this
guy to make these attacks when she is not only
a victim of a horrible crime herself, but has spent
(16:30):
decades of her life being a prosecutor and a victim's advocate,
I just think is vile, uncalled for. And obviously, he
doesn't know or care about who Nancy Grace really is. And,
you know, the more I thought about this, the more
angry I get. I don't care when people attack me,
but when they attack my friends, it really bothers me, Nancy.
(16:53):
And let me play this for example.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
It's been, obviously, a long weekend, okay? You're all journalists, reporters,
news media, and this weekend, has been horrific with the coverage.
And by that I mean Mr. Hannity with his men
discussing every little inch of Lindsay's symptoms and criticizing Nancy Grace,
(17:23):
to coin a phrase, the queen of mean, who misrepresents facts.
I challenge Nancy Grace to show us where Lindsay Clancy
ever said Ever Google how to kill? Words that came
out of her mouth. And these things hurt.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
We have had a total of seven women, many of them,
including our two guests, Tiffany Smiley and Nancy Grace, on
my TV show and on this radio show talking about
this case. Me and my men. He obviously just is wrong.
I don't know how you interpret this. How to slit
(18:04):
your throat to die. I don't know how you may
interpret it, but I interpret that as somebody looking for, wait,
can you turn airbags off on a Kia Sorento? Of course,
planning out, mapping out, timing out visa searches on Apple
Maps to allegedly calculate the driving times and the distance
(18:26):
to the pharmacy. that she purposely sent her husband on
a trip to, CVS Pharmacy, kids Miralax, that to me
shows intent and shows premeditation. That's my humble opinion. I'm
allowed to have an opinion. What is the carotid artery? Oh,
why would somebody want to know what a carotid artery is?
(18:50):
You would think a nurse would know that, but that's
separate and apart. But Nancy, I just wanted to say,
I thought this was vile, unfair, untrue. And it bothers me,
especially you. You described to me you went down to
80 pounds when you were 19 years old after your
fiance was murdered and that you almost didn't survive this.
(19:12):
And it altered your life in ways that you didn't
date for decades until you met the love of your life,
your current husband, and have these two beautiful children. And
for him to say that is so over the top
and beyond the pale to me.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Yes, Sean, I try. And it's hard not to think
back on that time because I can slip back into
a major depression. And I have children to think of now.
And yes, they're growing up, but they still need their mother.
(19:46):
And I cannot be part of a severe depression. that
I can't get out of. It's just very dangerous for
me to even consider it. But what you said is true.
I lost down to 89 pounds, relationships, other people. Nothing
meant anything to me. I hate to even remember it.
(20:07):
I remember a I had my mother turn off all
the TVs and the stereo. I couldn't stand to hear.
I couldn't even stand to hear the clock ticking. She
had to stop the clock. I couldn't take it. My
plan to be an English Shakespearean literature professor ended. I
(20:30):
didn't know what I was going to do until I
decided to go to law school to help other crime victims.
That was the first time I had ever even been
in a courthouse to be a witness at Keith's murder trial,
and I will never forget it as long as I live.
And in this case, I am not made of stone.
(20:52):
I believe that Lindsay Clancy had depression. I don't know
what demon she was fighting, but as an officer of
the court for crime victims, I have to tell it
like it is. And Reddington... Or anybody else can hate me.
I've had a string of defense attorneys hate me. From
what I understand, they were dancing in the halls at
(21:13):
the public defender's office when I left to go to
court TV. So fine, hate me. I can't say I
don't care, but I can't afford to care. I can't
let anything stop me from telling the truth, and the
truth is she had intent. Reddington attacked me saying she
did not Google how to kill. Specifically, she Googled how
(21:34):
to slit your throat to die. Can you turn off airbags?
Can you treat a sociopath? She, as you said, Apple
mapped her husband's route that she sent him on to
determine exactly how long she would have to kill the children.
Can you treat a sociopath? She looked up symptoms that
(21:58):
she later had, hallucinations, bipolar, psychosis symptoms, intrusive thoughts, and
so much more. It all equals intent. The children are dead.
They suffered a horrific death. I can't bring myself to
describe again what happened to their little necks once those
(22:21):
exercise bands were removed. They were pulled so tightly. It's horrific.
That's what's horrific.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
This is the problem I have with the whole system, Tiffany,
at the end of the day. And that is there's
so much surrounding this. And, you know, there's a lot
of people out there with a lot of problems in life.
I'm not disputing, you know, your medical background. I'm not
disputing we should look at broader issues. I don't think
(22:53):
that the answer is ever going to be found. in
any government-run healthcare system or any system. The system failed her,
the doctors failed her, the drugs failed her. And then
the worst part to me was when this attorney, Mr. Reddington,
came out and said, in closing arguments, that the soul
(23:15):
of this woman, meaning his client, Lindsay Clancy, the soul
of this client was ripped from her by these prosecutors
in this case. Prosecutors are trying to bring... What about
the souls of the three children? I mean, I felt
that on his end was completely heartless, distant, out of touch,
(23:37):
out of step with the full actions of his client.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
Yeah, I mean, this case is horrific. I hate that
we're even having to talk about it, that it even happened,
that these three beautiful babies are gone, souls gone from
this earth. And Quite frankly, their mother didn't even want
to be alive either. She wished she was dead. And,
you know, I would hope that we could be better.
(24:05):
I would hope that we could say that this would
never happen again. I would hope that our medical system
could improve in this country. We are one of the
most medicated people on earth in this country. And we
clearly are missing the mark. I think I mentioned to
you that I was working in triage when Obamacare rolled down,
(24:25):
and we were forced to see more patients with less time.
When you're talking about women and women's health care, that
is not a good thing. That doesn't equal good outcomes
for anyone. And if now we're just a society where
we push meds and say, go out the door, you'll
be fine, that's not good either. And so I guess
(24:46):
my overarching view of this case is I haven't just
picked a side and argued that until the day is gone.
But trying to have this conversation and saying, where did
the breakdown happen? Clearly, this woman has demons. And like
I mentioned earlier, felt that the only option in her
(25:07):
life was to kill her children and herself. Let's ask
how we got there.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Can I ask you this? Shouldn't that question be asked
in every murder case?
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Okay. And if it is, can't you come to a
conclusion or, you know, following that logic, can't you say, uh,
this individual, uh, he was crying out for help. This individual,
when the, when the, when the person, the murderer was young, um,
he used to kill cats and dogs and birds, um,
And that was an indication and nobody intervened and the
(25:43):
system failed this person, et cetera, et cetera. I mean,
there's no end to this. At what point does the
concept and belief in individual personal responsibility come into play?
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Yes, that clearly exists, but she was having issues and
postpartum issues. And I think that's, That's where the prosecution
had a hard time presenting the first degree murder is
that there's just not enough known about it. People are
(26:17):
scared of it. People don't maybe our medical system.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
You're only applying it to this case. And I'm arguing
that it's much broader than that. By definition, you kill somebody.
You're off. You're not well.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
Agreed.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
OK, so then it should be applicable on it. You know,
we can go into the past of every single murderer
and we're going to come up with stuff, warning signs,
people that should have known the system that broke down.
I mean, right at the end of the day, there's
still evil in the heart of that person.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
But if she was in a mental psychosis place that
just continued to get worse and didn't have the adequate
treatment or should have been institutionalized, she was institutionalized and
then she was released. Why was that issue there?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Well, I mean, at the end of the day, this
is also somebody that should have had knowledge where, in
other words, if you're a nurse and you're documenting with
copious notes, all the medications that you're taking when you're
taking them, um, you know, there's a certain intellectual knowledge
that you would expect any, any person that's in that
position will apply. I mean, I'm sure as a nurse,
(27:26):
you know, you knew about medications, um, So, I mean,
it gets rather complicated. Look, I appreciate the thoughtful hour
that we've spent on this because I think that this
is not going away.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
No.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I think that we are going to hear one Lindsay,
we'll refer to it as the Lindsay Clancy defense moving forward,
one after another. And as far as, you know, a
system that is going to allow this person to ever
walk the streets, that to me, is a massive, massive
(28:01):
flaw in the system of justice. Justice has to be served.
There will be no long-term justice, in my view, for
those three children that were strangled to death. But I
do appreciate the thoughtful debate. Tiffany, I prefer when we
usually agree. Nancy Grace, a love and prayers to you.
I know this actually probably unfortunately, brings back very, very
(28:26):
painful memories in your life. And for that, I apologize.
And you did not deserve what this defense attorney said
about you. And for that, I'm sorry, too. All right,
that's going to wrap things up for today. Great Hannity tonight,
9 Eastern on the Fox News Channel. First of all,
the jury tells the judge they can't come to unanimous
(28:47):
verdict in the Lindsey Clancy trial, he says, go back
to deliberations. They did so for hours. They have convened
for the day. How do you interpret that? We'll have
full analysis. Nancy Grace and others. John Fetterman is on tonight.
Scott Besson is on tonight. Tommy Lahren is on tonight.
I mean, I promise you, news you'll never get from
the state-run, abusively corrupt legacy media mob. Nine East on Hannity.
(29:11):
Set your DVR. We'll see you tonight. Back here tomorrow.
Thank you for making this show possible.
The Sean Hannity Show News
Host
Sean Hannity
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