April 13, 2025 • 39 mins
The story of how the venerable Jeep came to be is an intriguing one full of twists and turns. The company that actually produced the first Jeep was NOT who many people would think. Paul Bruno is the foremost expert on the development of the Jeep.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
We all owe them, but very few of us know them.
They are the men and women of our military and
first responder communities, and these are their stories.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
American Warrior Radio is on the air. Welcome to American
Warrior Radio, Ladies and gentlemen. This is Ben buler Garcia
a special welcome to those of you listening worldwide on
American Forces Network. At the Voice. American Warrior Radio broadcast
from the Solencer Central Studios are the nation's largest suppressor dealer.
(00:40):
They're ready to make your silencer buying journey as simple
and painful as possible. Call them today at eight six
six six four zero three two seven zero to get
the process started, or visit Silencercentral dot com. Be sure
to check souncercentral dot com to confirm if only a
soundcer is legal in your state. If you were to
think about an image of a machine that would immediately
(01:01):
take your mind to World War Two, what would it be?
How about the rugged and deependable B seventeen bomber, which
earned a reputation for bringing her crews home even with
extensive damage. Or the sleek and fast P fifty one Mustang,
a major player in defeating the Luftwaffe. I would be
willing to bet that the subject of today's discussion might
not be at the top of your list. It didn't
receive the fanfare of the Memphis Bell of for B
(01:23):
seventeen to complete twenty five missions. It was not manned
by a handsome fighter ace whose good looks sent him
home on war bond drives. No, our featured machine today
fulfilled this task for millions of gis, generally without fanfare,
but with the simplicity and dependability that made those who
drove them fall in love, a love affair that continues
to this day. General Dwight D. Eisenhower called it one
(01:44):
of the five pieces of equipment most vital to the
success in Africa and Europe. Join us today to discuss
the perhaps lowly but venerable jeep is Paul Bruno. Paul
is perhaps the foremost recognized expert on the creation evolution
of the jeep. He spent twenty five years reearching, writing,
and studying early GEP history. He's written several books on jeeps.
In his twenty twenty two book, The Original Jeeps was
(02:06):
recently updated, Paul, Welcome to American Warrior Radio.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
OH Glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Thanks for having me twenty five years of research, three books. Paul,
there is definitely some passion there for you. What is
the source of that motivation?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And the source of that motivation goes all the way
back to nineteen ninety nine when my late wife and
I were writing screenplays and were looking for stories, and
I found out how the original first jeep built by Banham,
which was a bankrupt car company in Butler, Pennsylvania that
no one had ever heard of, and they had built
the first one in a remarkable timeframe of forty nine days.
(02:42):
And I said, there's a lot of drama there, and
I started researching the story, and turns out it was
the case and just one of those things. The more
I kept digging, the more I kept finding, and the
more I kept finding, the more I kept being drawing
into the whirlwind of the story. So that's kind of
the initial genesis of the passion for early GEP history,
(03:07):
like I like to call it. And I define that
as the period really after World War One, especially the
nineteen thirties, right up to January nineteen forty two, when
the United States entered World War Two, obviously the month
before and really the creation and development of the Jeep,
which was primarily done in nineteen forty and nineteen forty one.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Now, Paul, I consider myself a pretty edumacated guy, but
I I had never heard of Bantam before.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
That's pretty much the case. I think the reason that
is the case, and I don't know why. And so
it's okay, it's Jeep's product, but Jeep tends to be
very williscentric. They're telling a Jeep history. If you go
to jeep dot com, they basically have the quad, the
m A, and MB on when they discussed the design,
(03:56):
creation and origin of the jeep, and they only mentioned
the word Bannam once and the word Ford once. And
that's okay, it's their product. But I think that's why.
And then the fact that the Willis MB was the
one that was built for the war along with the GPW,
but the GPW the Ford was basically the Willis and
B under license to Ford. And that's why Bannham has
(04:21):
been lost to history. And you know, my original motivation
was really to tell the Bandam story, which is quite
an amazing story, one of the great underdog stories in
American history. But as I dug more into the complete story.
I came to find so much about what Willis did
and have a deep respect for them, and then what
(04:42):
Ford did and deep respect for them. So I'm kind
of equally in awe of what all three vendors did
in their contributions to what eventually became the jeep for
the war.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
All these years, I've been pronouncing it wrong. I've always
called it Willie's, but it's Willis.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Well, that's what a major in the United States Army
told me that it's pronounced Willis. So I took his
took his advice, and that's what I call it. Most
people do call it Willie's. But John North Willis, I
think that's was his name, So, the guy that was
the founder of Willis Overland long back in the day.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I saw a previous interview you did where you were
talking about how originally you wanted to make this and
you just touched on it today you wanted to make
this a screenplay, and after reading your book, it would
be a tremendous story. I mean, lots of twists and
turns and a little bit of a less than ethical behavior,
but just just some amazing folks who you know, people
(05:40):
need keep in mind the context of that of that time.
You know, some of the people that banned them tried
or recruit it. It's like, look, this is not the
time to quit a day job and to come out
and take a risk with you guys, you know, doing
some engineering schematics for you or something like that. I
got a family to feed, so you know. The thing
that I guess kind of breaks my heart the most
(06:02):
about this story, Paul, is basically the federal government gave
the blueprints. You know, Bantam had the first one, they
had the first prototype, the first successful prototype, and the
DoD gave those blueprints to Willison to Ford.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Well, well they did, and what really what happened was
in back in the day, because I'm a purist, it
was actually the War Department the fact thefore they changed
it after the war to Defence Department. So but on
the War Department side of it, that is some people
feel that Willis stole Bannam's design. That's you know, if
(06:37):
I was being honest with you, Ben, that's really not
the case because Willis they had the specification of the
drawing that they put out in July to build the
first jeep. Bannam won that contract and began builder jeep
literally the next day. The Army cut a back room
deal with Willis to allow Willis to build a prototype
even though he had lost a bid on their own money. Well,
(07:00):
Willis did a lot of their engineering and design in
July and August for the Willis Quad and was even
building it in September. And I actually had the timeline
in the book. So the fact that they were so
close there was a lot of similarities being abandon of
the BRC number one and the Willis Quad was because
(07:21):
they were building from the same specification. Now Ford came
into it later and they were brought in in October
of nineteen forty. And yes, they were given all the blueprints,
all the engineering, and all the work that basically bann
them and Willis had done up to that time to
build their prototype, which was why they were able to
build their prototype and basically five or six weeks because
(07:44):
they did have all that engineering. So I think, you know,
when you look at the timeline that Willis provides and
when they ordered parts, the Willis Quad was really their design.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, it's interesting that the bit itself was only I
think out for ten days because obviously the War Department
we were in a big curry to get this done.
So as I understand it, I call it the bidders
conference initial you know, presentation. They're for bidders, Bantam, Willie's
Forward and Crossley and Willie's Actually, with the shortness time,
they submitted a handwritten bid. They didn't even bother to
(08:16):
type it up. But at the announcement, you know, they
they said, okay, Willis, it's got the best price. But
they could only deliver in seventy five days, whereas Bantam said,
we'll do it in forty nine. So Bantam got the bid.
That's that's kind of nice for them. For Bantam, you know,
they ended up building this thing. And and it's interesting, Paul,
when you look at the specifications, and I want to
(08:38):
talk a little bit more about that when we come
back after the break here. We got about a minute left.
But you know, the the what the War Department required
was it went through some evolutions, but a lot of
it was really challenging, and you know, part of it,
for example, we don't want you inventing a brand new vehicle.
You got to work off of existing chassis. And at
(09:00):
that time, as I understand, there was no such thing
as a half ton four x four vehicle out there
or certainly not on the commercial market.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah. Absolutely, we could talk about the challenges with the specifications,
you know, after the break and how that impacted the
designs that Bandon, Ford and Willis did.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Absolutely outstanding. Ladies and gentlemen, there's your host, bend La Garcia.
We're talking with the foremost jeep expert, Paul Bruno. You
can't see it, but he's actually got a jeep shirt
on and I don't think they pay him for that.
Maybe they do, Paul. Okay, well just check in. I
don't forget. You can find this podcast and over six
hundred others at American Warrior Radio dot com. The most
recent episodes on your favorite platform were on iHeart, Amazon, Spotify,
(09:44):
Pandora Android subscription. You can find us anywhere. If you
have a story that needs to be told, please reach
out to us BBG at American Warrior Radio dot com.
We'll be right back. Welcome back to American Warrior Radio.
(10:13):
Ladies and gentlemen, there's your host, Ben Biler Garcia. We're
talking with Paul Bruno about the origin of the jeeps.
You know, probably the most one of the most iconic
vehicles of World War Two and on up to into Korea.
You can learn more of visit original Jeeps dot com. Paul,
let's paint the scene here, because I think that's important
as part of the story. We're talking really about that
(10:34):
period between the First World War where mules were, you know,
the principal mode of moving equipment. And then of course
we have the depression, the isolationism that that America went
into prior to World War Two. In fact, I found
some day that said, in June of nineteen forty, the
US ranked as the eighteenth most powerful military in the world,
one rank behind Bulgaria. But the German Blitzkrieg introduced the
(10:59):
world to new type of warfare, and mules just weren't
going to cut it anymore. Right, So folks at the
war Department in the Army in particular, said, look, mobility
is the key. Mobility is the key. That's what the
problem we're confronting. So they started moving in that direction.
And there's an interesting guy in your book. I don't
know if you consider him the father of the jeep,
but Lieutenant Homer G. Hamilton.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah, well, both Tavin Hamilton I don't really consider as
the father of the jeep. He was in the book.
What happened was, you're absolutely right. You laid it out perfectly.
In terms of what was going on after World War
One into the thirties, there was no money. The Army
even into the mid thirties, knew they were going to
need increase mobility to replace the mule in the horse.
(11:42):
The Dad done some and it's documented the book, especially
the infantry vehicle testing, especially in nineteen thirty eight nineteen
thirty nine. Hamilton's role was he had written an article
in nineteen thirty five which kind of laid out a
small command car. So he was a guy that had
an initial vision, but he really wasn't involved. After that.
(12:03):
The infantry did testing of vehicles. Other people were trying
to find something that would work. However, by May nineteen forty,
the Army had absolutely nothing in their arsenal, on the
drawing board, or in the planning stages to replace the
horse of the mule. In May nineteen forty, they had
(12:26):
absolutely nothing and no plans to do anything. And that's
where the miraculous story of the jeep starts. In May
nineteen forty, after a three day conference, the Infantry representative
at that conference at Camp Holabird, was was the motor
depot they procured vehicles at that time, which was outside
of Baltimore, Maryland. He went back to his office in
(12:48):
Washington and sitting in his window the window sill behind
his desk was Charles Paine, the sales representative for Bannam
And one of the things we want to have the
time to go in to hear in. But if you
read the book, it literally one realizes how miraculous it
was that the jeep came about and how many as
(13:11):
you mentioned in the last segment, twists and turns that
if they'd gone any other direction, the jeep would not
have come out the way it did. And that was
the first they have absolutely nothing. And carl Osith walks
into his office, who is the infantry's vehicle expert. It
meets Charles pain who is the representative of the car
(13:32):
company in the United States, the American band of car
company that builds small vehicles, and it began there.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I tell you one thing I love about your book,
and again, folks, you can learn more visit original jeeps
dot com. A lot of photos in there, a lot
of pictures which I love I don't know if maybe
that was the propaganda at the time, but a lot
of pictures of jeep's airborne or a jeep airborne, you know,
towing an artillery piece and you know, the soldiers hanging
on for dear life to that handle on the side
(13:59):
of the jeep. But your book also introduced me to
one of the most bizarre vehicles ever, the Howie Machine
Gun Carrier. And I guess that came from Lieutenant Hamilton
maybe and just real quick, so folks, if they could
picture it, think of a really low slung vehicle that
the passengers and the driver would be prone and they're
(14:20):
basically so that you're laying as I understand it, while
you're laying down and the pedals are behind you. Bizarre.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
The Howie Machine Gun Carrier was an infantry's attempt to
build a mobile vehicle, and it was created at Fort
Benning by a guy named Robert Howie, which is why
on Howie Machine Gun Carrier. And it was actually Robert
Howie that Payne was looking for in May nineteen forty
to talk to him about small vehicles. Let me just
(14:48):
mention one thing for your audience. Why is my book
and books the definitive account of the creation development of
the jeep. The reason for that is I found in
my rech at the National Archives in College Park, Maryland,
a court case called the Federal Trade Commission in the
matter of Willis's Overland Motors, Inc. In the United States
(15:10):
Advertising Company. And what happened is during the war, Willis
was was doing advertising claiming they had created the jeep.
The federal government sued them and eventually had a court
case to decide the matter that had three thousand, five
hundred and forty seven pages of testimony in five hundred
and twenty seven exhibits. Well, for some odd reason up
(15:31):
to me finding this, and I knew it was out
there in the ether, and people knew about it, but
for seventy years because they prosecuted this case during the
war nineteen forty four and just after the war nineteen
forty six, but primarily in forty four and forty five,
they interviewed or deposed every single person from vandam Ford
and Willis and the army and others on what they did,
(15:55):
when they did it, why they did it, and how
they did it. In terms of their vobit with the
current development of the jeep only a few years after.
So the testimony ends up being a massive oral history
on the creation development of the jeep. And for some
odd reason, I'm not all that bright, but I seem
to be the only one that has read all of it.
(16:17):
I copied three thousand pages of it and all the
exhibits which document the timelines of everything that happened, and
all the exhibits are introduced in the testimony explain what
they are. So that core case forms the essence of
my books, where I basically organized all the material from
(16:38):
the court case and the testimony and allowed the people
who did the work to tell their story in their
own words. And that's why the original Jeeps I consider
it the magnum opus and the creation development of the jeep.
No book before since tells the story and is that
much historical accuracy because I had the core case is
(17:00):
the heart and soul to work with and then enhance
the narrative with other primary and secondary sources as needed.
So that's how I know. How do I know that
O Seth met pain and it was sitting in his
office window after that conference because O set testified that's
what happened. That's the great value for whatever I've done
(17:23):
in terms of the original jeeps, no book is more
historically accurate. Last comment on this, I would read, well,
no one really knows exactly how the jeep came about,
and most books would just kind of gloss over the
early Geep history period of forteen forty one. I took
the time, found the court case, all the other documentation.
(17:44):
People read my book, they're going to know exactly what happened,
when it happened, why it happened, and how it happened
from the very people who did it. And I can
give you a couple at least one example if you'd
like of the kind of detail that's in the book
for your audience, if you'd.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, let's do that when we come back. I had
another author on that wrote a book about something called
the jeep shows, where, you know, folks like Mickey Rooney
would take these jeeps and go do these vaudeville shows
up on the front lines places it was too dangerous
for the US so to travel. And one of the
lions from the book, they're talking about the Germans, you know,
and they said, well, the Germans have a lot of generals,
(18:21):
but they don't have general motors, and so I'm just
I'm the idea that they produced this prototype in forty
nine days. I don't know if that's a record or not,
but that's pretty impressive. Ladies and gent we're talking with
Paul Bruno about the origins of the jeep, one of
the iconic vehicles of World War two in Korea. You
can learn more visit original Jeeps dot com, check out
his books up there, and lots of cool stuff on
(18:43):
his website. We'll come back in just a few minutes
to talk more about this amazing story of how the
iconic jeep came to be stick around. Welcome back to
(19:13):
American Warrior Radio. Laser and gentlemen. This is Ben Bueler Garcia,
your host. We're coming to you from the Silencer Central Studios.
Adding a silencer will make shootings safer, more enjoyable, and
improve your accuracy. Begin the process by visiting Silencercentral dot
com to see if only a silencer is legal in
your state. They can then walk you through the permitting
process and ship right to your front door. Call silencer
Central today at eight six six six four zero three
(19:36):
two seven zero, or visit silencercentral dot com. We're talking
to Paul Bruno, who is I'm calling the expert. I'm
calling you an expert. Paul, you're the foremost expert on
the origin of the Jeep vehicle. You can learn more
about Paul in some of his work visit the original
Jeeps dot com. Paul, I don't know if I saw
this in your book or somewhere else. I picked it up,
but Bantam literally delivered that prototype what like an hour
(20:01):
and a half to spare or I mean it was
pretty pretty tight.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Well, they had to cut it closer than that, ben
than a half an hour to spare on the forty
ninth day. Wow, Which is why it makes such a
great screenplay, because it's like the drama going back to
a point you made earlier, and I think in the
first segment you said there was some minimally minimal unethical behavior. Yeah,
that would one of the things, and I just kind
(20:25):
of kind of there's so many stories wrapped up in
the origin of the Geep. But to back up your
point there, which was spot on, when Bantam said they
could build the vehicle in forty nine days, they had
no idea they could actually do it. They're basically I
don't want to say they were lying, but they was.
Basically Willis was actually honest and said, look, we can't
(20:46):
do this in forty nine days, and that cost them
the contract. So I don't know sometings not being honest.
Is I know that would paid off for Bantam on
that one.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Maybe some of the Bandham guys were poker players and
they're basically just bluffing, right, Oh.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Were bluffing. I'll tell you the other one that were
bluffing out it is we didn't talk about the weight requirement.
The army decided the vehicle was going to weigh a
quarter ton without asking anyone that actually have to build
a vehicle if that was reasonable for what they wanted
in the vehicle. Well, it was completely unreasonable and nobody
could meet the weight requirement and ban them basically lied
on their form saying that their vehicles would have weigh
(21:22):
twelve hundred and seventy three pounds when they knew absolutely
that it would not. And Willis basically they they objected
to the weight requirement and said their vehicle was good
to weigh about eighteen hundred pounds, which that didn't make
the army happy either. So wasn't those two things for
banned them basically, and there's a whole story around it
in terms of how they come up with the twelve
(21:43):
hundred and seventy three pounds. But by may, I'll just
give you one example ben of information that's in the
book that came out of the court case that is
nowhere else that dispels certain mists around the creation development
of jeep. There's this drawing that I saw online for
years that people would say this, we think this is
(22:03):
the first drawing of a jeep type vehicle, but nobody
knows exactly when it was done, where it was done,
why it was done. Right, Well, I'm going through the
test of the court case and I find a copy.
I'm holding in my hand a copy of that very
drawing for the nineteen forties, the very first drawing of
the jeep. Then I'm reading the testimony paged two, six
(22:26):
hundred and fifty Frank Fenn. This is how he buried
in there. Frank Finn went over all the detail of
a visit the army had done on June nineteenth, nineteen forty,
to kind of figure out what this vehicle might be like.
And in his testimony he said, at the end of
the day mister Brown and mister Beasley took out a
(22:47):
yellow scratch pad indicating so he's pointing to a yellow
scratch pad in the courtroom, and they drew a drawing
of what this vehicle would look like and possibly be like.
And that was the drawing that was out on the
internet where everyone was saying, we don't know when this
was done or where it was done, why was done,
and who did it. Well, my book is the only
one that says, because I read it in the testimony,
(23:09):
it was done on June nineteenth, nineteen forty, It was
done in Butler, Pennsylvania. It was done in Frank Fenn's
office by mister Brown and Missley Beasley, who were Army engineers.
That's the level of detail that's in my book. If
someone really wants to know, soup to nuts, all the
ins and outs of what happened that as it was
(23:30):
all in the test trial testimony, or the vast bulk
of it from the very people who did it, who
were there. So that's why this book is different than
other books that might well, we think this, or we
think that, No, I know exactly what happened because I
read it by the people who did it. And what
was great about this court case testimony, ben Is It
(23:50):
was an oral history. But in oral histories a lot
of times they're done long after the fact. This was
done only a few years after the fact, and people
may embellish what they did or not necessarily have good memories.
But these people had to be as honest as possible
because they were in a courtroom under oath to tell
the truth. That's again what makes you know the original jeeps,
(24:13):
you know, the the epitome of historical accuracy because it
has everything from the very people who did it as
they told their story in the courtroom.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Well, there's there's sort of an axiom in the world
of business that you know, it's not enough to be
the first to the table with an idea, but you
don't got to be the first of the table with
an idea and then the cash to back it. You know, Bantam,
Like I said, I'd never heard of them. I don't
know how many you know units they eventually produced. You know,
Willis didn't make the first testing but were given another chance,
(24:45):
had a fifteen hundred dollars jeep order was in cancel,
and when they came back and did it over again,
they got the order back, but at the end of
the day, most of the jeeps that actually saw service
came from Willis or Forward. Correct.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yes, you're absolutely right, Bandham built twenty six hundred. What
happened was going to the toward the end of the
story after a year of incredible drama, back room maneuvering,
you name it. You can't make this stuff up. Every
interview I go through, it's like what happened with the
(25:18):
GP curement. You can't make it up. The Army went
out in nineteen forty one in late July to get
sixteen thousand vehicles, and they were actually going to just
hand them the Ford in a negotiated contract that was
overruled by someone outside of the Quartermaster. The bids came
in Bannon, Ford and Willis, and the Army then wrote
(25:38):
a four page memo which I actually put in the book,
saying they were going to award the contract for the
sixteen thousand to Ford, though Willis had the best vehicle
at the lowest price, and went up the chain for approval,
and one guy, William Newtson, overruled the Quartermaster and said, no,
you're going to award this to Willis because they had
(26:00):
the lowest price and they didn't say it, but they
also had the best vehicle, which was the m A
at the time. So you would not have had the
Willis NB if it hadn't been for one guy, William
Newtson saying no, Ford is not going to get this
contract for sixteen thousand Willises. And that's the stuff that's
documented in my book again in great detail from the
(26:23):
sources that I had, including the court case, that there
would have not been the iconic vehicle of World War
two Willis MB. They would not have been if it
wasn't for one guy overruling the quartermaster's decision to give
it the Ford. So going to your point, yeah, they
built three hundred and twenty thousand Willis mbs and two
hundred and seventy thousand four gpw's, which was basically the
(26:46):
Willis vehicle that Ford built under license at their facilities.
So it's really amazing how how you got to the
MB was after the Willis Quad. Willis made a whole
bunch of changes and they decided to call that version,
which they had a fifteen hundred vehicle contract for the
(27:08):
military vehicle, and since it was the first version, they
called it the A. So that's how you had them.
And when after they got the contract for the sixteen thousand,
the army wanted so many changes, and they made so
many changes. Said this is not really the MA, it's
really a newer vehicle, a much updated vehicle. So we're
(27:29):
going to call it the second version. So we're going
to call it the Military Vehicle B. So that's how
you got to the Willis MB, the iconic vehicle that
basically was a key contributor, a major contributor, one of
the most important contributors, as you put in your intro
to the Allies winning the war, was the Willis MB.
(27:49):
That's how you got to the Willis MB.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, I talk about a marketing faux pas. The first
forward prootype thing was called the PIGB. Not something makes
me want to buy it? Right, it was so little
and the main we got to take another break here, Paul,
But the main advantage that the Willis had was in
that more powerful engine.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I mean, the soldiers loved that about that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Vehicle, absolutely correct, and we could talk about that after
the break, the more powerful engine. And they were all
four by four. They were all four by four. Every
jeep ever built from the Bantam. First one was four
by four.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
It's the most iconic vehicle ground vehicle of World War Two,
the jeep, the venerable Jeep. We're talking with Paul Bruno,
who's an expert on that. He's got a couple of
books out. Visit his website Original Jeeps dot com to
learn more about it. Just some tremendous research. I learned
a lot from reading his book and my family or
jeep folks. Yeah, we'll talk about that when we come back. Paul.
Ladies and gentlemen, your host Ben Dela Garcia here with
(28:44):
Paul Bruno. Don't forget to check out podcast archives American
Warrior Radio dot com or the most recent podcast can
be found on your favorite platform, whatever that is. We'll
be right back. Welcome back to American Warrior Radio. Lacy
(29:16):
and gentlemen, there's your host, Ben Bieler Garcia. We're talking
with Paul Bruno. Paul is the foremost expert on the
origin of the venerable jeep vehicle, and Paul, you should
get an award. I don't know anybody who could sit
down and read through thirty six hundred higher many pages
of testimony from a court case, So God bless you, Paul.
My folks were missionaries. I grew up in Mexico. We
(29:37):
spent a lot of time up in the jungles in
the mountains of Oajaca, and my dad went down to
a dealership and bought a jeep and that vehicle took
us through thick and thin. I fell in love with it.
My brother and his wife all they own our jeeps,
so it's definitely iconic, so I find it also kind
of ironic. I think Bantam did ended up producing a
(30:01):
lot of jeeps, but then they went into the business
of producing trailers to attach to jeeps, so that's not
bad either.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
That was kind of their consolation prize, the trailers that
you know, they could get pull behind the vehicle that
they had done so much to help create. But you know,
Willis was there and Ford was there. It touched upon
two major key design factors for the jeep that's made
it what it was over its eighty year history, and
that was the four x four component, which was pretty
(30:29):
new in nineteen forty and so the creation of the
front axle for that especially was extremely important. And they
went to a company called Spicer Axle, which was also
in Toledo, the same city as Willis and Spicer had
to do some massively innovative engineering to get that ax
a little work for the Banna's first vehicle, which they
(30:51):
delivered in forty nine days. And then Willis quad and
guess what when the core case when the Federal Trade
Commission went to Toledo, they deposed the two engineers who
had designed and developed the first axles for the jeep,
Fred Hall and Robert Lewis, and I put all their
testimony of the vast majority of it in the book
(31:14):
The Show. Here is the engineering that went into the
front axle to make this a four by four, which
is what's been one of the definitive characteristics of the
jeep from us creation. So again, these two guys which
no one's ever heard of, there's their testimony. This is
how we contribute to the jeep. And then the other
(31:35):
thing you mentioned, which was spot on, was the engine.
Now what happened was, with the weight requirement being so onerous,
Ford and Bantam decided to go with forty horsepower engines. Well,
Willis had this sixty horsepower engine called the God Devil
engine that they had developed and that they knew, and
(31:56):
so when they went to design the quad, their vice
president of engineering said, I know that more power in
a military vehicle is never wasted, and he basically insisted
upon his name was Del mar Ruz, We're going to
go with the god devil engine, and we are going
to plan our flag on that hill, and we're gonna
die on that hill with this engine. Well they almost did,
(32:19):
but through the whole process they were able to keep
that engine, and when they came out the other side
with them, especially in nineteen forty one, they had all
three vehicles, bannonms BRC, Forge GP and the Willis MA
were excellent jeeps, but that that sixty horse power engine
(32:41):
made THEMA just the next level above. And that's where
Newtson's decision is so important. It Ford had won the contract,
they may have stuck with their forty horse power engine
and the jeep might not have been able to do
everything that was able to do in World War two
and all theaters of the war in all conditions by
not having an extra twenty horse power, which you basically
(33:04):
testified to that jeep could take you anywhere. If we're
talking about a World War two type jeep or you
know that type of jeep in Mexico. That's what made
the difference so absolutely excellent point in terms of that
key with Newts and gold, with Willis and having that
bigger engine, the jeep would not have been the jeep
ours was not. It was almost it was kind of
(33:25):
like a panel van. I guess it was maybe a
like a four passenger jeep, it doesn't matter, but it
was very It was a very very good vehicle.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
One of the things I guess I would have appreciated
as a soldier in War two is the a the
jeep was easy to work on and easy to fix,
but also the modification. Some people, if they look at
the old films and stuff, they might see a jeep
with this big like pole sticking up in front of it,
and you know, they basically they so there's so much
barbed wire and trip wires and all this stuff, particularly
(33:57):
throughout France, they put this thing on. There is basically
a wire cutter, so that the jeep would drive through
either cut the wire push it up over the heads
of the soldiers. They you know, they had racks so
you could add stretchers on and you see that of
course in the you know, mash, the classic mash of
the Korean War. They even put snorkels on them so
they could navigate even you know, in deeper water. And
(34:18):
I mean, what a great adaptable, cool vehicle. Not to
mention the weapon mounts. You know, you could put a
thirty caliber or fifty caliber on it and a record
less rifle. And I guess you know from my generation, Paul,
you know, we all there was a TV series, I
think it was called Desert Racks, oh, black and white
series about you know, the Brits in Africa, and you know,
the British sas they had you know, jeep specially modified
(34:40):
to run those campaigns, those those you know, hit and
run campaigns in Egypt. So really, really just a very
very cool vehicle. And I'm so grateful that you told
us the rest of the story, if you will. Real
quick though, I understand that you've got a campaign going
right now. We've got three stations in Ohio and you're
looking for for some blueprints.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up in the
court case. And if anyone knows anyone at the National Archives,
if you know anyone that's importing in Ohio politics, anyone Okay,
what happened was in the court case, Willis put in
blueprints and design drawings for the Quad, the MA and
the NB Okay, and those blueprints are missing from the
(35:25):
court caid exhibits, and no one in the National Archives
could tell me what happened to them, mainly because I'm
unimportant and I'm a nobody, and they're not gonna make
the effort to try to find out what happened to
these blueprints without some people really that have a lot
more power rejuice than I do, asking the National Archives
(35:48):
to determine definitively whatever resources you have to put on
to figure out what happened to these blueprints to figure
definitively either are they still exist and where they are
or there? And the reason they're so important is these
go back to the absolute three original jeeps, the Quad,
the m A, and EMB. There was also a blueprint
(36:10):
for the Bantams first jeep, and I believe these would
be massively historical documents to find.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Okay, So, listeners in Ohio, if you've got a contact
with a Senator or a congress person or anyone like that,
you reach out to US BBG and American Warrior radio
will put you in touch with Paul, and let's say
if we can get that done, Paul three minute stuff.
And I've got two very important questions. Any idea on
there's some debate about the origin of the name jeep.
You know, if it was the GP designation or if
(36:39):
it was based on a cartoon character. Do you have
any insight into that.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I do. And let's just not forget Vice president of
VANCE is no high one, so anyone in knows VP,
let them know about these blueprints. That's really a great question.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Ben.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
The court case spent a lot of time of the
court case, the people prosecuting the court case trying to
figure out where the name jeep came out came from,
and they really were not able to definitively figure that out. Okay,
And so my best from what I read was is
the term jeep was actually applied to It was kind
(37:14):
of a generic term that was applied to many vehicles
in the late thirties. A night in the early nine
in nineteen forty, they would just call this a jeep
or that a jeep. I don't know why it was,
just where it came from, if it was from the
cartoon character or whatnot. But what happened was when the
quarter Ton, which was the official name of what eventually
became known as the jeep, When the VANDAM arrived and
(37:36):
then the quad arrived somewhere in the fall of nineteen forty,
the term jeep got applied to those vehicles, and then
it eventually just evolved into being exclusively applied to those vehicles.
That's the short version on the jeep name.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Second question, if Bantam produced the first jeep in Butler, Pennsylvania,
If I'm not mistaken, how can Toledo, Ohio queen to
be the home of jeep.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Absolutely, Toledo can claim the home of the jeep. Here's
how I do it. Bannham and Butler is the birthplace
of the jeep. That's what was conceived in June July
nineteen forty. They built the first one. Then all the
stuff happened, and Willis was in there. They created a
great jeep and so on, and when they won the
contract for the sixteen thousand, they became where the jeep
(38:26):
was built for the war built afterwards. They're the home
of the jeep. I like it it too real quick.
Abraham Lincoln Lincoln was born in Kentucky. But what's the
land of Lincoln where they consider his home where he
spent most of his life Illinois, So they both have
a role. Bannam's the birthplay of Butler's the birthplace of
the jeep, and Toledo is most assuredly the home of
the jeep.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Paul, thank you so much for spending your time with
our listeners today. It's very very enlightening. I encourage folks,
if you love jeeps, if you know anything about jeeps,
you definitely want to get Paul's book. You can find
out more at Original Jeeps dot com. Again, the author
is Paul Bruno. Paul, thank you so much for your
insights and I feel much more enlightened today.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Right And i'd just like to say the books are
available on Amazon dot com. Besides, you can find more
information at Original Jeeps dot com. And Ben, thank you
for having me.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
It's been my pleasure, sir. There you go. Folks, please
share these important messages with their friends and associates, and
don't forget you can visit Americanwarriorradio dot com to find
over six hundred podcasts. Thank you for tuning in today,
ladies and gentlemen. Until next time, all policies and procedures
are to remain in place. Take care of yourselves.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
You've been listening to American Warrior Radio. Archived episodes maybe
found at americanwarriorradio dot com or your favorite podcast platform.
We all owe them, but very few of us know them.
They are the men and women of our military and
first responder communities, and these are their stories.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
American Warrior Radio is on the air. Welcome to American
Warrior Radio, Ladies and gentlemen. This is Ben buler Garcia
a special welcome to those of you listening worldwide on
American Forces Network. At the Voice. American Warrior Radio broadcast
from the Solencer Central Studios are the nation's largest suppressor dealer.
(00:40):
They're ready to make your silencer buying journey as simple
and painful as possible. Call them today at eight six
six six four zero three two seven zero to get
the process started, or visit Silencercentral dot com. Be sure
to check souncercentral dot com to confirm if only a
soundcer is legal in your state. If you were to
think about an image of a machine that would immediately
(01:01):
take your mind to World War Two, what would it be?
How about the rugged and deependable B seventeen bomber, which
earned a reputation for bringing her crews home even with
extensive damage. Or the sleek and fast P fifty one Mustang,
a major player in defeating the Luftwaffe. I would be
willing to bet that the subject of today's discussion might
not be at the top of your list. It didn't
receive the fanfare of the Memphis Bell of for B
(01:23):
seventeen to complete twenty five missions. It was not manned
by a handsome fighter ace whose good looks sent him
home on war bond drives. No, our featured machine today
fulfilled this task for millions of gis, generally without fanfare,
but with the simplicity and dependability that made those who
drove them fall in love, a love affair that continues
to this day. General Dwight D. Eisenhower called it one
(01:44):
of the five pieces of equipment most vital to the
success in Africa and Europe. Join us today to discuss
the perhaps lowly but venerable jeep is Paul Bruno. Paul
is perhaps the foremost recognized expert on the creation evolution
of the jeep. He spent twenty five years reearching, writing,
and studying early GEP history. He's written several books on jeeps.
In his twenty twenty two book, The Original Jeeps was
(02:06):
recently updated, Paul, Welcome to American Warrior Radio.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
OH Glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Thanks for having me twenty five years of research, three books. Paul,
there is definitely some passion there for you. What is
the source of that motivation?
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And the source of that motivation goes all the way
back to nineteen ninety nine when my late wife and
I were writing screenplays and were looking for stories, and
I found out how the original first jeep built by Banham,
which was a bankrupt car company in Butler, Pennsylvania that
no one had ever heard of, and they had built
the first one in a remarkable timeframe of forty nine days.
(02:42):
And I said, there's a lot of drama there, and
I started researching the story, and turns out it was
the case and just one of those things. The more
I kept digging, the more I kept finding, and the
more I kept finding, the more I kept being drawing
into the whirlwind of the story. So that's kind of
the initial genesis of the passion for early GEP history,
(03:07):
like I like to call it. And I define that
as the period really after World War One, especially the
nineteen thirties, right up to January nineteen forty two, when
the United States entered World War Two, obviously the month
before and really the creation and development of the Jeep,
which was primarily done in nineteen forty and nineteen forty one.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Now, Paul, I consider myself a pretty edumacated guy, but
I I had never heard of Bantam before.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
That's pretty much the case. I think the reason that
is the case, and I don't know why. And so
it's okay, it's Jeep's product, but Jeep tends to be
very williscentric. They're telling a Jeep history. If you go
to jeep dot com, they basically have the quad, the
m A, and MB on when they discussed the design,
(03:56):
creation and origin of the jeep, and they only mentioned
the word Bannam once and the word Ford once. And
that's okay, it's their product. But I think that's why.
And then the fact that the Willis MB was the
one that was built for the war along with the GPW,
but the GPW the Ford was basically the Willis and
B under license to Ford. And that's why Bannham has
(04:21):
been lost to history. And you know, my original motivation
was really to tell the Bandam story, which is quite
an amazing story, one of the great underdog stories in
American history. But as I dug more into the complete story.
I came to find so much about what Willis did
and have a deep respect for them, and then what
(04:42):
Ford did and deep respect for them. So I'm kind
of equally in awe of what all three vendors did
in their contributions to what eventually became the jeep for
the war.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
All these years, I've been pronouncing it wrong. I've always
called it Willie's, but it's Willis.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Well, that's what a major in the United States Army
told me that it's pronounced Willis. So I took his
took his advice, and that's what I call it. Most
people do call it Willie's. But John North Willis, I
think that's was his name, So, the guy that was
the founder of Willis Overland long back in the day.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I saw a previous interview you did where you were
talking about how originally you wanted to make this and
you just touched on it today you wanted to make
this a screenplay, and after reading your book, it would
be a tremendous story. I mean, lots of twists and
turns and a little bit of a less than ethical behavior,
but just just some amazing folks who you know, people
(05:40):
need keep in mind the context of that of that time.
You know, some of the people that banned them tried
or recruit it. It's like, look, this is not the
time to quit a day job and to come out
and take a risk with you guys, you know, doing
some engineering schematics for you or something like that. I
got a family to feed, so you know. The thing
that I guess kind of breaks my heart the most
(06:02):
about this story, Paul, is basically the federal government gave
the blueprints. You know, Bantam had the first one, they
had the first prototype, the first successful prototype, and the
DoD gave those blueprints to Willison to Ford.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Well, well they did, and what really what happened was
in back in the day, because I'm a purist, it
was actually the War Department the fact thefore they changed
it after the war to Defence Department. So but on
the War Department side of it, that is some people
feel that Willis stole Bannam's design. That's you know, if
(06:37):
I was being honest with you, Ben, that's really not
the case because Willis they had the specification of the
drawing that they put out in July to build the
first jeep. Bannam won that contract and began builder jeep
literally the next day. The Army cut a back room
deal with Willis to allow Willis to build a prototype
even though he had lost a bid on their own money. Well,
(07:00):
Willis did a lot of their engineering and design in
July and August for the Willis Quad and was even
building it in September. And I actually had the timeline
in the book. So the fact that they were so
close there was a lot of similarities being abandon of
the BRC number one and the Willis Quad was because
(07:21):
they were building from the same specification. Now Ford came
into it later and they were brought in in October
of nineteen forty. And yes, they were given all the blueprints,
all the engineering, and all the work that basically bann
them and Willis had done up to that time to
build their prototype, which was why they were able to
build their prototype and basically five or six weeks because
(07:44):
they did have all that engineering. So I think, you know,
when you look at the timeline that Willis provides and
when they ordered parts, the Willis Quad was really their design.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Well, it's interesting that the bit itself was only I
think out for ten days because obviously the War Department
we were in a big curry to get this done.
So as I understand it, I call it the bidders
conference initial you know, presentation. They're for bidders, Bantam, Willie's
Forward and Crossley and Willie's Actually, with the shortness time,
they submitted a handwritten bid. They didn't even bother to
(08:16):
type it up. But at the announcement, you know, they
they said, okay, Willis, it's got the best price. But
they could only deliver in seventy five days, whereas Bantam said,
we'll do it in forty nine. So Bantam got the bid.
That's that's kind of nice for them. For Bantam, you know,
they ended up building this thing. And and it's interesting, Paul,
when you look at the specifications, and I want to
(08:38):
talk a little bit more about that when we come
back after the break here. We got about a minute left.
But you know, the the what the War Department required
was it went through some evolutions, but a lot of
it was really challenging, and you know, part of it,
for example, we don't want you inventing a brand new vehicle.
You got to work off of existing chassis. And at
(09:00):
that time, as I understand, there was no such thing
as a half ton four x four vehicle out there
or certainly not on the commercial market.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah. Absolutely, we could talk about the challenges with the specifications,
you know, after the break and how that impacted the
designs that Bandon, Ford and Willis did.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Absolutely outstanding. Ladies and gentlemen, there's your host, bend La Garcia.
We're talking with the foremost jeep expert, Paul Bruno. You
can't see it, but he's actually got a jeep shirt
on and I don't think they pay him for that.
Maybe they do, Paul. Okay, well just check in. I
don't forget. You can find this podcast and over six
hundred others at American Warrior Radio dot com. The most
recent episodes on your favorite platform were on iHeart, Amazon, Spotify,
(09:44):
Pandora Android subscription. You can find us anywhere. If you
have a story that needs to be told, please reach
out to us BBG at American Warrior Radio dot com.
We'll be right back. Welcome back to American Warrior Radio.
(10:13):
Ladies and gentlemen, there's your host, Ben Biler Garcia. We're
talking with Paul Bruno about the origin of the jeeps.
You know, probably the most one of the most iconic
vehicles of World War Two and on up to into Korea.
You can learn more of visit original Jeeps dot com. Paul,
let's paint the scene here, because I think that's important
as part of the story. We're talking really about that
(10:34):
period between the First World War where mules were, you know,
the principal mode of moving equipment. And then of course
we have the depression, the isolationism that that America went
into prior to World War Two. In fact, I found
some day that said, in June of nineteen forty, the
US ranked as the eighteenth most powerful military in the world,
one rank behind Bulgaria. But the German Blitzkrieg introduced the
(10:59):
world to new type of warfare, and mules just weren't
going to cut it anymore. Right, So folks at the
war Department in the Army in particular, said, look, mobility
is the key. Mobility is the key. That's what the
problem we're confronting. So they started moving in that direction.
And there's an interesting guy in your book. I don't
know if you consider him the father of the jeep,
but Lieutenant Homer G. Hamilton.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah, well, both Tavin Hamilton I don't really consider as
the father of the jeep. He was in the book.
What happened was, you're absolutely right. You laid it out perfectly.
In terms of what was going on after World War
One into the thirties, there was no money. The Army
even into the mid thirties, knew they were going to
need increase mobility to replace the mule in the horse.
(11:42):
The Dad done some and it's documented the book, especially
the infantry vehicle testing, especially in nineteen thirty eight nineteen
thirty nine. Hamilton's role was he had written an article
in nineteen thirty five which kind of laid out a
small command car. So he was a guy that had
an initial vision, but he really wasn't involved. After that.
(12:03):
The infantry did testing of vehicles. Other people were trying
to find something that would work. However, by May nineteen forty,
the Army had absolutely nothing in their arsenal, on the
drawing board, or in the planning stages to replace the
horse of the mule. In May nineteen forty, they had
(12:26):
absolutely nothing and no plans to do anything. And that's
where the miraculous story of the jeep starts. In May
nineteen forty, after a three day conference, the Infantry representative
at that conference at Camp Holabird, was was the motor
depot they procured vehicles at that time, which was outside
of Baltimore, Maryland. He went back to his office in
(12:48):
Washington and sitting in his window the window sill behind
his desk was Charles Paine, the sales representative for Bannam
And one of the things we want to have the
time to go in to hear in. But if you
read the book, it literally one realizes how miraculous it
was that the jeep came about and how many as
(13:11):
you mentioned in the last segment, twists and turns that
if they'd gone any other direction, the jeep would not
have come out the way it did. And that was
the first they have absolutely nothing. And carl Osith walks
into his office, who is the infantry's vehicle expert. It
meets Charles pain who is the representative of the car
(13:32):
company in the United States, the American band of car
company that builds small vehicles, and it began there.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I tell you one thing I love about your book,
and again, folks, you can learn more visit original jeeps
dot com. A lot of photos in there, a lot
of pictures which I love I don't know if maybe
that was the propaganda at the time, but a lot
of pictures of jeep's airborne or a jeep airborne, you know,
towing an artillery piece and you know, the soldiers hanging
on for dear life to that handle on the side
(13:59):
of the jeep. But your book also introduced me to
one of the most bizarre vehicles ever, the Howie Machine
Gun Carrier. And I guess that came from Lieutenant Hamilton
maybe and just real quick, so folks, if they could
picture it, think of a really low slung vehicle that
the passengers and the driver would be prone and they're
(14:20):
basically so that you're laying as I understand it, while
you're laying down and the pedals are behind you. Bizarre.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
The Howie Machine Gun Carrier was an infantry's attempt to
build a mobile vehicle, and it was created at Fort
Benning by a guy named Robert Howie, which is why
on Howie Machine Gun Carrier. And it was actually Robert
Howie that Payne was looking for in May nineteen forty
to talk to him about small vehicles. Let me just
(14:48):
mention one thing for your audience. Why is my book
and books the definitive account of the creation development of
the jeep. The reason for that is I found in
my rech at the National Archives in College Park, Maryland,
a court case called the Federal Trade Commission in the
matter of Willis's Overland Motors, Inc. In the United States
(15:10):
Advertising Company. And what happened is during the war, Willis
was was doing advertising claiming they had created the jeep.
The federal government sued them and eventually had a court
case to decide the matter that had three thousand, five
hundred and forty seven pages of testimony in five hundred
and twenty seven exhibits. Well, for some odd reason up
(15:31):
to me finding this, and I knew it was out
there in the ether, and people knew about it, but
for seventy years because they prosecuted this case during the
war nineteen forty four and just after the war nineteen
forty six, but primarily in forty four and forty five,
they interviewed or deposed every single person from vandam Ford
and Willis and the army and others on what they did,
(15:55):
when they did it, why they did it, and how
they did it. In terms of their vobit with the
current development of the jeep only a few years after.
So the testimony ends up being a massive oral history
on the creation development of the jeep. And for some
odd reason, I'm not all that bright, but I seem
to be the only one that has read all of it.
(16:17):
I copied three thousand pages of it and all the
exhibits which document the timelines of everything that happened, and
all the exhibits are introduced in the testimony explain what
they are. So that core case forms the essence of
my books, where I basically organized all the material from
(16:38):
the court case and the testimony and allowed the people
who did the work to tell their story in their
own words. And that's why the original Jeeps I consider
it the magnum opus and the creation development of the jeep.
No book before since tells the story and is that
much historical accuracy because I had the core case is
(17:00):
the heart and soul to work with and then enhance
the narrative with other primary and secondary sources as needed.
So that's how I know. How do I know that
O Seth met pain and it was sitting in his
office window after that conference because O set testified that's
what happened. That's the great value for whatever I've done
(17:23):
in terms of the original jeeps, no book is more
historically accurate. Last comment on this, I would read, well,
no one really knows exactly how the jeep came about,
and most books would just kind of gloss over the
early Geep history period of forteen forty one. I took
the time, found the court case, all the other documentation.
(17:44):
People read my book, they're going to know exactly what happened,
when it happened, why it happened, and how it happened
from the very people who did it. And I can
give you a couple at least one example if you'd
like of the kind of detail that's in the book
for your audience, if you'd.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, let's do that when we come back. I had
another author on that wrote a book about something called
the jeep shows, where, you know, folks like Mickey Rooney
would take these jeeps and go do these vaudeville shows
up on the front lines places it was too dangerous
for the US so to travel. And one of the
lions from the book, they're talking about the Germans, you know,
and they said, well, the Germans have a lot of generals,
(18:21):
but they don't have general motors, and so I'm just
I'm the idea that they produced this prototype in forty
nine days. I don't know if that's a record or not,
but that's pretty impressive. Ladies and gent we're talking with
Paul Bruno about the origins of the jeep, one of
the iconic vehicles of World War two in Korea. You
can learn more visit original Jeeps dot com, check out
his books up there, and lots of cool stuff on
(18:43):
his website. We'll come back in just a few minutes
to talk more about this amazing story of how the
iconic jeep came to be stick around. Welcome back to
(19:13):
American Warrior Radio. Laser and gentlemen. This is Ben Bueler Garcia,
your host. We're coming to you from the Silencer Central Studios.
Adding a silencer will make shootings safer, more enjoyable, and
improve your accuracy. Begin the process by visiting Silencercentral dot
com to see if only a silencer is legal in
your state. They can then walk you through the permitting
process and ship right to your front door. Call silencer
Central today at eight six six six four zero three
(19:36):
two seven zero, or visit silencercentral dot com. We're talking
to Paul Bruno, who is I'm calling the expert. I'm
calling you an expert. Paul, you're the foremost expert on
the origin of the Jeep vehicle. You can learn more
about Paul in some of his work visit the original
Jeeps dot com. Paul, I don't know if I saw
this in your book or somewhere else. I picked it up,
but Bantam literally delivered that prototype what like an hour
(20:01):
and a half to spare or I mean it was
pretty pretty tight.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Well, they had to cut it closer than that, ben
than a half an hour to spare on the forty
ninth day. Wow, Which is why it makes such a
great screenplay, because it's like the drama going back to
a point you made earlier, and I think in the
first segment you said there was some minimally minimal unethical behavior. Yeah,
that would one of the things, and I just kind
(20:25):
of kind of there's so many stories wrapped up in
the origin of the Geep. But to back up your
point there, which was spot on, when Bantam said they
could build the vehicle in forty nine days, they had
no idea they could actually do it. They're basically I
don't want to say they were lying, but they was.
Basically Willis was actually honest and said, look, we can't
(20:46):
do this in forty nine days, and that cost them
the contract. So I don't know sometings not being honest.
Is I know that would paid off for Bantam on
that one.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Maybe some of the Bandham guys were poker players and
they're basically just bluffing, right, Oh.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Were bluffing. I'll tell you the other one that were
bluffing out it is we didn't talk about the weight requirement.
The army decided the vehicle was going to weigh a
quarter ton without asking anyone that actually have to build
a vehicle if that was reasonable for what they wanted
in the vehicle. Well, it was completely unreasonable and nobody
could meet the weight requirement and ban them basically lied
on their form saying that their vehicles would have weigh
(21:22):
twelve hundred and seventy three pounds when they knew absolutely
that it would not. And Willis basically they they objected
to the weight requirement and said their vehicle was good
to weigh about eighteen hundred pounds, which that didn't make
the army happy either. So wasn't those two things for
banned them basically, and there's a whole story around it
in terms of how they come up with the twelve
(21:43):
hundred and seventy three pounds. But by may, I'll just
give you one example ben of information that's in the
book that came out of the court case that is
nowhere else that dispels certain mists around the creation development
of jeep. There's this drawing that I saw online for
years that people would say this, we think this is
(22:03):
the first drawing of a jeep type vehicle, but nobody
knows exactly when it was done, where it was done,
why it was done. Right, Well, I'm going through the
test of the court case and I find a copy.
I'm holding in my hand a copy of that very
drawing for the nineteen forties, the very first drawing of
the jeep. Then I'm reading the testimony paged two, six
(22:26):
hundred and fifty Frank Fenn. This is how he buried
in there. Frank Finn went over all the detail of
a visit the army had done on June nineteenth, nineteen forty,
to kind of figure out what this vehicle might be like.
And in his testimony he said, at the end of
the day mister Brown and mister Beasley took out a
(22:47):
yellow scratch pad indicating so he's pointing to a yellow
scratch pad in the courtroom, and they drew a drawing
of what this vehicle would look like and possibly be like.
And that was the drawing that was out on the
internet where everyone was saying, we don't know when this
was done or where it was done, why was done,
and who did it. Well, my book is the only
one that says, because I read it in the testimony,
(23:09):
it was done on June nineteenth, nineteen forty, It was
done in Butler, Pennsylvania. It was done in Frank Fenn's
office by mister Brown and Missley Beasley, who were Army engineers.
That's the level of detail that's in my book. If
someone really wants to know, soup to nuts, all the
ins and outs of what happened that as it was
(23:30):
all in the test trial testimony, or the vast bulk
of it from the very people who did it, who
were there. So that's why this book is different than
other books that might well, we think this, or we
think that, No, I know exactly what happened because I
read it by the people who did it. And what
was great about this court case testimony, ben Is It
(23:50):
was an oral history. But in oral histories a lot
of times they're done long after the fact. This was
done only a few years after the fact, and people
may embellish what they did or not necessarily have good memories.
But these people had to be as honest as possible
because they were in a courtroom under oath to tell
the truth. That's again what makes you know the original jeeps,
(24:13):
you know, the the epitome of historical accuracy because it
has everything from the very people who did it as
they told their story in the courtroom.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Well, there's there's sort of an axiom in the world
of business that you know, it's not enough to be
the first to the table with an idea, but you
don't got to be the first of the table with
an idea and then the cash to back it. You know, Bantam,
Like I said, I'd never heard of them. I don't
know how many you know units they eventually produced. You know,
Willis didn't make the first testing but were given another chance,
(24:45):
had a fifteen hundred dollars jeep order was in cancel,
and when they came back and did it over again,
they got the order back, but at the end of
the day, most of the jeeps that actually saw service
came from Willis or Forward. Correct.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yes, you're absolutely right, Bandham built twenty six hundred. What
happened was going to the toward the end of the
story after a year of incredible drama, back room maneuvering,
you name it. You can't make this stuff up. Every
interview I go through, it's like what happened with the
(25:18):
GP curement. You can't make it up. The Army went
out in nineteen forty one in late July to get
sixteen thousand vehicles, and they were actually going to just
hand them the Ford in a negotiated contract that was
overruled by someone outside of the Quartermaster. The bids came
in Bannon, Ford and Willis, and the Army then wrote
(25:38):
a four page memo which I actually put in the book,
saying they were going to award the contract for the
sixteen thousand to Ford, though Willis had the best vehicle
at the lowest price, and went up the chain for approval,
and one guy, William Newtson, overruled the Quartermaster and said, no,
you're going to award this to Willis because they had
(26:00):
the lowest price and they didn't say it, but they
also had the best vehicle, which was the m A
at the time. So you would not have had the
Willis NB if it hadn't been for one guy, William
Newtson saying no, Ford is not going to get this
contract for sixteen thousand Willises. And that's the stuff that's
documented in my book again in great detail from the
(26:23):
sources that I had, including the court case, that there
would have not been the iconic vehicle of World War
two Willis MB. They would not have been if it
wasn't for one guy overruling the quartermaster's decision to give
it the Ford. So going to your point, yeah, they
built three hundred and twenty thousand Willis mbs and two
hundred and seventy thousand four gpw's, which was basically the
(26:46):
Willis vehicle that Ford built under license at their facilities.
So it's really amazing how how you got to the
MB was after the Willis Quad. Willis made a whole
bunch of changes and they decided to call that version,
which they had a fifteen hundred vehicle contract for the
(27:08):
military vehicle, and since it was the first version, they
called it the A. So that's how you had them.
And when after they got the contract for the sixteen thousand,
the army wanted so many changes, and they made so
many changes. Said this is not really the MA, it's
really a newer vehicle, a much updated vehicle. So we're
(27:29):
going to call it the second version. So we're going
to call it the Military Vehicle B. So that's how
you got to the Willis MB, the iconic vehicle that
basically was a key contributor, a major contributor, one of
the most important contributors, as you put in your intro
to the Allies winning the war, was the Willis MB.
(27:49):
That's how you got to the Willis MB.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, I talk about a marketing faux pas. The first
forward prootype thing was called the PIGB. Not something makes
me want to buy it? Right, it was so little
and the main we got to take another break here, Paul,
But the main advantage that the Willis had was in
that more powerful engine.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I mean, the soldiers loved that about that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Vehicle, absolutely correct, and we could talk about that after
the break, the more powerful engine. And they were all
four by four. They were all four by four. Every
jeep ever built from the Bantam. First one was four
by four.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
It's the most iconic vehicle ground vehicle of World War Two,
the jeep, the venerable Jeep. We're talking with Paul Bruno,
who's an expert on that. He's got a couple of
books out. Visit his website Original Jeeps dot com to
learn more about it. Just some tremendous research. I learned
a lot from reading his book and my family or
jeep folks. Yeah, we'll talk about that when we come back. Paul.
Ladies and gentlemen, your host Ben Dela Garcia here with
(28:44):
Paul Bruno. Don't forget to check out podcast archives American
Warrior Radio dot com or the most recent podcast can
be found on your favorite platform, whatever that is. We'll
be right back. Welcome back to American Warrior Radio. Lacy
(29:16):
and gentlemen, there's your host, Ben Bieler Garcia. We're talking
with Paul Bruno. Paul is the foremost expert on the
origin of the venerable jeep vehicle, and Paul, you should
get an award. I don't know anybody who could sit
down and read through thirty six hundred higher many pages
of testimony from a court case, So God bless you, Paul.
My folks were missionaries. I grew up in Mexico. We
(29:37):
spent a lot of time up in the jungles in
the mountains of Oajaca, and my dad went down to
a dealership and bought a jeep and that vehicle took
us through thick and thin. I fell in love with it.
My brother and his wife all they own our jeeps,
so it's definitely iconic, so I find it also kind
of ironic. I think Bantam did ended up producing a
(30:01):
lot of jeeps, but then they went into the business
of producing trailers to attach to jeeps, so that's not
bad either.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
That was kind of their consolation prize, the trailers that
you know, they could get pull behind the vehicle that
they had done so much to help create. But you know,
Willis was there and Ford was there. It touched upon
two major key design factors for the jeep that's made
it what it was over its eighty year history, and
that was the four x four component, which was pretty
(30:29):
new in nineteen forty and so the creation of the
front axle for that especially was extremely important. And they
went to a company called Spicer Axle, which was also
in Toledo, the same city as Willis and Spicer had
to do some massively innovative engineering to get that ax
a little work for the Banna's first vehicle, which they
(30:51):
delivered in forty nine days. And then Willis quad and
guess what when the core case when the Federal Trade
Commission went to Toledo, they deposed the two engineers who
had designed and developed the first axles for the jeep,
Fred Hall and Robert Lewis, and I put all their
testimony of the vast majority of it in the book
(31:14):
The Show. Here is the engineering that went into the
front axle to make this a four by four, which
is what's been one of the definitive characteristics of the
jeep from us creation. So again, these two guys which
no one's ever heard of, there's their testimony. This is
how we contribute to the jeep. And then the other
(31:35):
thing you mentioned, which was spot on, was the engine.
Now what happened was, with the weight requirement being so onerous,
Ford and Bantam decided to go with forty horsepower engines. Well,
Willis had this sixty horsepower engine called the God Devil
engine that they had developed and that they knew, and
(31:56):
so when they went to design the quad, their vice
president of engineering said, I know that more power in
a military vehicle is never wasted, and he basically insisted
upon his name was Del mar Ruz, We're going to
go with the god devil engine, and we are going
to plan our flag on that hill, and we're gonna
die on that hill with this engine. Well they almost did,
(32:19):
but through the whole process they were able to keep
that engine, and when they came out the other side
with them, especially in nineteen forty one, they had all
three vehicles, bannonms BRC, Forge GP and the Willis MA
were excellent jeeps, but that that sixty horse power engine
(32:41):
made THEMA just the next level above. And that's where
Newtson's decision is so important. It Ford had won the contract,
they may have stuck with their forty horse power engine
and the jeep might not have been able to do
everything that was able to do in World War two
and all theaters of the war in all conditions by
not having an extra twenty horse power, which you basically
(33:04):
testified to that jeep could take you anywhere. If we're
talking about a World War two type jeep or you
know that type of jeep in Mexico. That's what made
the difference so absolutely excellent point in terms of that
key with Newts and gold, with Willis and having that
bigger engine, the jeep would not have been the jeep
ours was not. It was almost it was kind of
(33:25):
like a panel van. I guess it was maybe a
like a four passenger jeep, it doesn't matter, but it
was very It was a very very good vehicle.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
One of the things I guess I would have appreciated
as a soldier in War two is the a the
jeep was easy to work on and easy to fix,
but also the modification. Some people, if they look at
the old films and stuff, they might see a jeep
with this big like pole sticking up in front of it,
and you know, they basically they so there's so much
barbed wire and trip wires and all this stuff, particularly
(33:57):
throughout France, they put this thing on. There is basically
a wire cutter, so that the jeep would drive through
either cut the wire push it up over the heads
of the soldiers. They you know, they had racks so
you could add stretchers on and you see that of
course in the you know, mash, the classic mash of
the Korean War. They even put snorkels on them so
they could navigate even you know, in deeper water. And
(34:18):
I mean, what a great adaptable, cool vehicle. Not to
mention the weapon mounts. You know, you could put a
thirty caliber or fifty caliber on it and a record
less rifle. And I guess you know from my generation, Paul,
you know, we all there was a TV series, I
think it was called Desert Racks, oh, black and white
series about you know, the Brits in Africa, and you know,
the British sas they had you know, jeep specially modified
(34:40):
to run those campaigns, those those you know, hit and
run campaigns in Egypt. So really, really just a very
very cool vehicle. And I'm so grateful that you told
us the rest of the story, if you will. Real
quick though, I understand that you've got a campaign going
right now. We've got three stations in Ohio and you're
looking for for some blueprints.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up in the
court case. And if anyone knows anyone at the National Archives,
if you know anyone that's importing in Ohio politics, anyone Okay,
what happened was in the court case, Willis put in
blueprints and design drawings for the Quad, the MA and
the NB Okay, and those blueprints are missing from the
(35:25):
court caid exhibits, and no one in the National Archives
could tell me what happened to them, mainly because I'm
unimportant and I'm a nobody, and they're not gonna make
the effort to try to find out what happened to
these blueprints without some people really that have a lot
more power rejuice than I do, asking the National Archives
(35:48):
to determine definitively whatever resources you have to put on
to figure out what happened to these blueprints to figure
definitively either are they still exist and where they are
or there? And the reason they're so important is these
go back to the absolute three original jeeps, the Quad,
the m A, and EMB. There was also a blueprint
(36:10):
for the Bantams first jeep, and I believe these would
be massively historical documents to find.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Okay, So, listeners in Ohio, if you've got a contact
with a Senator or a congress person or anyone like that,
you reach out to US BBG and American Warrior radio
will put you in touch with Paul, and let's say
if we can get that done, Paul three minute stuff.
And I've got two very important questions. Any idea on
there's some debate about the origin of the name jeep.
You know, if it was the GP designation or if
(36:39):
it was based on a cartoon character. Do you have
any insight into that.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I do. And let's just not forget Vice president of
VANCE is no high one, so anyone in knows VP,
let them know about these blueprints. That's really a great question.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Ben.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
The court case spent a lot of time of the
court case, the people prosecuting the court case trying to
figure out where the name jeep came out came from,
and they really were not able to definitively figure that out. Okay,
And so my best from what I read was is
the term jeep was actually applied to It was kind
(37:14):
of a generic term that was applied to many vehicles
in the late thirties. A night in the early nine
in nineteen forty, they would just call this a jeep
or that a jeep. I don't know why it was,
just where it came from, if it was from the
cartoon character or whatnot. But what happened was when the
quarter Ton, which was the official name of what eventually
became known as the jeep, When the VANDAM arrived and
(37:36):
then the quad arrived somewhere in the fall of nineteen forty,
the term jeep got applied to those vehicles, and then
it eventually just evolved into being exclusively applied to those vehicles.
That's the short version on the jeep name.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Second question, if Bantam produced the first jeep in Butler, Pennsylvania,
If I'm not mistaken, how can Toledo, Ohio queen to
be the home of jeep.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Absolutely, Toledo can claim the home of the jeep. Here's
how I do it. Bannham and Butler is the birthplace
of the jeep. That's what was conceived in June July
nineteen forty. They built the first one. Then all the
stuff happened, and Willis was in there. They created a
great jeep and so on, and when they won the
contract for the sixteen thousand, they became where the jeep
(38:26):
was built for the war built afterwards. They're the home
of the jeep. I like it it too real quick.
Abraham Lincoln Lincoln was born in Kentucky. But what's the
land of Lincoln where they consider his home where he
spent most of his life Illinois, So they both have
a role. Bannam's the birthplay of Butler's the birthplace of
the jeep, and Toledo is most assuredly the home of
the jeep.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Paul, thank you so much for spending your time with
our listeners today. It's very very enlightening. I encourage folks,
if you love jeeps, if you know anything about jeeps,
you definitely want to get Paul's book. You can find
out more at Original Jeeps dot com. Again, the author
is Paul Bruno. Paul, thank you so much for your
insights and I feel much more enlightened today.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Right And i'd just like to say the books are
available on Amazon dot com. Besides, you can find more
information at Original Jeeps dot com. And Ben, thank you
for having me.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
It's been my pleasure, sir. There you go. Folks, please
share these important messages with their friends and associates, and
don't forget you can visit Americanwarriorradio dot com to find
over six hundred podcasts. Thank you for tuning in today,
ladies and gentlemen. Until next time, all policies and procedures
are to remain in place. Take care of yourselves.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
You've been listening to American Warrior Radio. Archived episodes maybe
found at americanwarriorradio dot com or your favorite podcast platform.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!