America's Criminologist 03 17 2026 Guest Captain Mike Moore, a 37-year airline captain

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Col steal susa's light justice listing me as a fate
shadows secres lots let the America Squaminologist co sales of
law in anachlosis, A Crime, Break and.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Change, Bruce.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
And here's America's criminologist, doctor Kerry Myers.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Thank you, mister producer. Happy Saint Patrick's day. What a
great day it is. I hope everybody's doing well. Welcome
to America's Criminologists. I'm doctor Curry Myers. I'm a retired sheriff,
former special agent and state trooper, and applied criminologists and
former academic who focuses on criminal justice, public policy, ethics,
and police operations. In my book The Event of Feral Man,

(01:05):
I presented evidence of a new criminal arc type emerging
in modern society, often shaped by the dark psychological traits
and fueled by the lack of faith, family, and formation.
This show digs into real issues behind crime and justice
in America, from the front lines to the policy halls,
and we do it with grit, truth and good old

(01:26):
fashioned common sense. Hey make sure and check out my
full archive at doctor Curriemeyers dot substack dot com. And
don't forget we're streaming on every major platform. So let's
get to it. Like always, we're going to take a
hard look at crime, culture and human behavior, because crime
doesn't just happen in dark alley. Sometimes it happens at

(01:46):
thirty five forty thousand feet. Over the past years, we've
seen a surge in unruly airline passengers, people refusing to
follow crew instructions, bringing their own alcohol and pats, all
kinds of paths, my goodness, arguing over masts, seats, baggage,
sometimes even physically attacking flight attendants. Think about that for

(02:10):
a moment. It's incredible. As as aircraft is one of
the most controlled and safety critical environments on the Earth,
it would make sense that we probably would behave ourselves,
but it seems to be acting like a middle school
cafeteria most of the time. What does it say about
our culture, civility, and authority in America right now? Well,

(02:31):
today we're going to talk about it with someone who's
seen it all, a man with four decades at four
decades in the cockpit, Captain Mike Moore. And if you're
ever wondering what pilots really think of when someone tries
to suffer refrigerator size carry on into the overhead. Been
You'll want to stay tuned because we're today we're going

(02:53):
to talk about the criminology in the skies, my friends.
This segment of America's criminologists has brought to you by
Real Resilience. That's with an r eel. It's a transformative
program helping inmates prepare for successful re entry using inspirational
films and guided discussions. Real Resilience teaches practical tools to

(03:15):
build resilience, strengthen relationships, and restore hope for the future.
It's real learning through real stories where positive choices are modeled,
not just preached. Real Resilience because re entry isn't just released,
it's second chance done right. Okay. As you know, I
spent nearly three decades in law enforcement, and one thing

(03:37):
I learned pretty quickly is authority only works if people
respect it. When people stop respecting authority, whether it's police, officers, teachers,
or captains on airlines, chaos creeps in and an airline
chaos isn't just rude, it's dangerous. So today we're going
to explore something deeper than airline etiquette. We're going to
talk about the culture, discipline, and the psychology of entitlement

(04:02):
in the skies. Joining me today is Captain Mike Moore,
a commercial airline captain with over forty years of flying experience.
Mike decided to pursue a career as an airline pilot
by the age of five, and took his first flying
lesson at the age thirteen. I think I was still
finger painting then. He was an eighth grade graduation gift

(04:24):
from his mother. Captain Moore obtained an FAA pilot's license
by age nineteen and also has been an FAA licensed
airframe and power plant mccl mechanic for the past forty
five years. He holds an Airline Transport pilot rating with
a five type rating in commercial instrument pilot certifications for

(04:44):
both single and multi engine aircraft. Mike accumulated more than
twenty thousand hours over thirty seven years as an airline
pilot first and two different world class carriers, with the
last fifteen of those also serving as a Federal flight
deck off. Mike retired from airline flying just last year.
As an international captain, Mike now spends times with his

(05:07):
family friends, flies his own personal airplane that he built.
If I remember correctly, serves as the chairman of his
county Airport Commission and is building another plane, a two
seat biplane, in his garage. I've had also the privilege
to know Mike for nearly twenty five years. Man, almost
twenty five years, time flies, Captain Moore. Welcome, sir, Thank you, sir.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
What an honor to be here.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Oh, thank you, honor. It's been a privilege to know you.
And I can't believe we've almost known each other for
twenty five years. But it goes by pretty quickly. I've changed, you, haven't.

Speaker 4 (05:46):
I suddenly feel old for some reason.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
But I love you and thanks for coming on the show.
I've actually we've been trying to work this out. I
guess we were talking about almost a year ago and
you were working full time, and uh, that really wouldn't
be a good time to come on and talk about
the industry.

Speaker 5 (06:06):
It was.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
It was tough to get a schedule in.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah. So I think you were flying Europe, and then
I think you were going to South America some back then.
I can't remember exactly all the places you were going,
but you're flying I went South a lot. Yeah, Yeah,
flew into some of those areas where you've got to
fly over high mountains and land and uh in a
strict landing space.

Speaker 4 (06:31):
It's some of it to some of it was kind
of sketchy at times, particularly when the weather went down.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, and of course you don't have that down there
at all.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
Right, Yeah, but you know that the training, the training helps,
you know, you go procedurally. It's a lot like police work.
You just follow the procedure and it's best practices.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yep, yep, definitely. Well, one of the things we wanted
to talk about is the unruly behavior. It seems like
that when I first got on a plane back when
I was young, and uh, we didn't fly very often,
number one, but we had to dress up to get
on that plane, and we had to act a certain way,

(07:12):
so we had to look good. We had to behave
and act.

Speaker 4 (07:15):
A certain way.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
And the airline stewards stewardesses were very cli kind. They
were in command, and the pilot was like, oh my gosh, goodness.
The pilot walked in and almost everybody stood a detention
or you know, they had a aura about them that
they when they when they walked in. It drew people's

(07:38):
attention because it was such a such a powerful and
important position and now we have today. So what do
you think is going on in the skies of America
and across the world today.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
I know there's definitely been a change from that. I
recall going to the airport to pick up my grandmother.
We had to wear our Sunday's best to just pick
her up because she was she was dressed in her
Sunday's best and it was it was a little different
era back then. There's been definitely a decline in manners.

(08:14):
I can tell you that I'm no sociologist, but it
seems to me that passenger etiquette is following the general
decline of the manners and society as a whole.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
When you little inside baseball here, if you're willing to share,
so you sit down with your fellow pilot after the
door closes, do you ever look each look at each
other and just go just just based on things you saw,
just not only over a career, but just even for
that day. Have you ever have you ever looked at

(08:47):
each other and go, well, here we go again, Yes,
we have.

Speaker 4 (08:54):
It's it's an interesting dynamic. A lot of times, as
you walk up to the gate, you kind of scan
the gate area and you see who's going to be
my troublemakers today, and you can kind of you know,
sometimes you can pick them out and uh, you know,
you get that sixth sense. It's it's sort of like
law enforcement. They do the same thing. They get a

(09:15):
sixth sense about people and uh, and you kind of
realize who who's going to be your trouble And once
in a while they'll surprise you though you know, you'll
get someone on there, but you kind of look around
and you go, oh, it's going to be one of
those days. So yes, it definitely happens.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Is there is there a really a most common form
of unruly behavior? What do you what do you see
the most.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
The most common h is you know, you see a
lot of not so serious non compliance. I mean people
who don't shut their cell phones off. And that's nowadays,
that's not it's not such a big deal now. I
have seen instances in the older airplanes that that I flew,

(10:04):
that they had they would get pick up the interference
from the big big bricks of cell phones that that
you know, they put out fifteen watts or whatever it was,
and you could see the needles move. They would they
would make our needles up front move and I mean
the guys would go in the bathroom and make a
phone call, and you know, things would be jumping all

(10:24):
over the place, and you knew exactly what it was.
But probably nowadays it's not that big a deal, but
it is still a rule. Uh, there's no there's been
no testing done to prove that it doesn't interfere. So
you know, if you want to take your life in
your hands and and you know one hundred and eighty
five other people with you, that's turn your cell phone on,

(10:47):
try and make it a call. Cell phone non compliance
is probably number one. Alcohol tends to be a big one.
You see a lot of problems with that, and uh,
you know there's there's some well there's there's rules about that.
Uh you know, under Federal Aviation Regulations one twenty one

(11:09):
point five seven five and ninety one point seventeen, it's
a violation of the law for a crew to knowingly
allow a person who is visibly intoxicated on the aircraft
or if they're on the aircraft, to take them somewhere.
And uh, you know that can that can result if
if if someone you know, prosecutes that, that can end

(11:32):
up in a ten thousand dollars fine for every member
of the crew, and the airline doesn't pay that, that's
that's out of your pocket.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
You know.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
I don't think people realize that that there's a due
diligent responsibility on the individual employees. That's pretty important when
you think about it. So no, no wonder that you
want to, you know, play it safe, and people need
to understand just how bad it can get because nobody
can afford that.

Speaker 4 (11:59):
Well in the FA has the has the authority to
revoke your license for anything that they deem to be
you know, appropriate. So I mean, in a case like that,
if if someone got on intoxicated and you know, quite honestly,
we sit up front, we don't look back a whole lot.
We close the door and unless we get a call

(12:21):
from the back and they tell us what's going on,
you know, we're we're sort of oblivious, and you know,
we do kind of like it that way. But occasionally
you'll get a call and uh, and they'll they'll lay
the problem in your lap and then you have to
make decisions and so on, and you get second guests
about those. So yeah, it's uh, you know, it can

(12:41):
get it can get dicey in places.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Well, and that blink brings up the importance of flight attendants. Boy,
how how that role has changed over time that it's
become almost like a bouncer in many ways. How how
is that relationship between pilots and flight attendants? How do
you how do you you know, learn to I'm sure

(13:04):
if you fly with I don't know how often you
fly with the same people, but you probably know certain
things about how individuals will respond, especially flight attendants. Is
there a way that you try to kind of keep
up with that the.

Speaker 4 (13:20):
Training that we do now the pilots, we go back
to everybody at the airline goes back to school once
a year. They have a continuing training program and uh,
you know, we go back to school once a year
and and we drill on that stuff. We have classes
with the flight attendant's Human Factors class where we can
you know, we discuss issues and and how to how

(13:45):
to interface with the different groups better and everyone sort
of gets a uh, you know, a complaint session is
what it kind of turns into. But it's it's productive
because you get to see what they're dealing with and
how you can make that an easier an easier. Uh
uh you know, opportunity.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (14:06):
One of the things that I learned early on as
a captain was that uh uh there's a there's a
pre flight briefing required of every crew, and you get
the crew together and you uh and you brief and
you say, look, this is how I want to do it.
This is how I want to you know, see these
things done. As the captain, you're in charge, and uh,

(14:27):
you know, you're responsible for everything, so you you you uh,
you brief them on the weather, the flight, when it
would be appropriate, to serve meals when it wouldn't be,
and so on and so forth. And what I found
is that that's very much to appreciate. Then it's because
a lot of guys tend to sort of short circuit it.

(14:48):
Uh it becomes sort of a drudge for them. And
I found that what it does is it really enhances
the uh, the the uh togetherness of the crew. And
uh I never had complaints.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
And it's not like it used to be, where sometimes
your crew changes often you may not have the same one.
It used to be that you would always kind of
fly together or is it still that way?

Speaker 4 (15:10):
Oh, there are there are days where you'll you'll fly
four legs or three legs, and you'll have three different
crews on it. Yeah, you know, it's it's uh. And
then you may you may take another crew on the
layover at that point. Next day you get up and
you start over again with a with a completely different crew.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Has that changed or was it? Was it not like
that early on in your career.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
Computer bidding did that where they can they can segment
the trips by legs and uh, and they now generally speaking,
if you have four flight attendants on the aircraft, they
stay together for the trip. And that's not necessarily true
of everything, but generally speaking, they they have a schedule together.

Speaker 5 (15:52):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
So they go from gate to gate together and and
they fly together, and they go to the layovers together.
As where it interfaces with the pilots, we kind of
have our own schedule and if we meet up and
we fly a leg with them and then or two
or three and you know, and I've had I've had
crews where we stayed together for two or three days,

(16:14):
you know. So it's it's just kind of a mixed mash,
a mix and mash of things.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Now, you have a really unique background. You started out
as an airline mechanic and then went into as a
flight engineer. That's back when you had three people in
the cockpit, and then you ended up first officer and
then of course a captain. So you've experienced a lot
of things and a lot of changes over time in

(16:42):
your career, especially with airframes and the type of it.
What's been the most significant? Number One, I think it's
probably pretty important to have your kind of background, because
you can probably assess things in the air a little
bit better than somebody who may not have that kind
of knowledge. The other one is what kind of stuff
has completely changed in the industry from when you began

(17:06):
to now.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
I actually started as a mechanic and worked my way
up to a corporate flight department and flew executives for
a corporation for five years, and then I left there.
I took a job flying night freight because I was
just that much short of the time required to get
to an airline, and so I flew night freight, single

(17:33):
pilot night freight. After that, I went to work for
a commuter airline as a first officer and flew for them,
and then I got hired by a major as a
flight engineer. Probably the most significant, the most significant change,
it was just starting to happen as I was coming up,

(17:54):
was cockpit resource management. They called it CRM, and they
had a number of accidents. Of course, every every uh,
every rule and every every good idea come comes at
a cost and usually written in someone's blood. They had
some accidents where captains were autocratic and they had no no,

(18:15):
no use for the input of their crew. And uh,
they realized that that, you know, that these guys needed
to we needed to change that model, because you know,
even though even though you're in charge, if you listen
to what these guys have to say and you consider it,
you can still override it if you still don't think

(18:38):
it's a good idea. However, you know, maybe their input
might it might actually be, you know, something of worth.
Particularly if a guy says, hey, uh, I'm looking at
the chart here and it shows us that you know,
we're one hundred feet low. We need to get up
one hundred feet here. You know, you don't want that

(19:00):
TV antenna or radio antenna ripping through the belly of
the airplane. So you know, uh, that was probably the
biggest uh, the biggest change uh was was occurring as
I came up and uh, and they took that to heart. Uh.
Some of the technology has been terrific. The t CAST
traffic collision and avoidance systems.

Speaker 5 (19:22):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (19:22):
The box screams at you when there's you know, an
impending collision or or the potential for a collision. That's
a that's a terrific safety device. The weather radars have
gotten nothing but better. You can you can pick your
way around thunderstorms. Uh, you know, on a dime. Now,
So that's probably the that's probably the biggest deal. But

(19:44):
but but in in in people terms, I would say
probably the the ability for people to work together. And
when they included the flight attendants and there and the
ramp guys and the agents in that uh, in that CRM,
it just got better and better.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
That military helicopter pilot that crashed into a carrier just
a couple of years ago, we ended up being I
think pilot error on the part of the military helicopter pilot.
It sounds like that was that failure to listen to
others because I think the second seat pilot at the

(20:20):
time was warning her that they were I think it
was almost it was one hundred feet too low and
she had kind of poo pooed it off, if memory serves,
they were.

Speaker 4 (20:31):
They were one hundred feet too high, yes, and he
was the instructor. And if he had, if he had
been assertive, and I'm not going to second guess anyone,
particularly him, but if he had been more assertive at
that point, that accident likely never would have happened.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
So you got to really be watching it, especially in
that kind of airspace.

Speaker 4 (20:56):
Well, and not just there, you know, I mean there
have been instances where I've I've been flying with with captains,
old captains, experienced guys, and it's really easy to sit
over there and think, well, I don't like the way
this is going. But he's experienced and he knows what
he's doing, surely, you know. But those are the times

(21:16):
when you have to speak up, you know, and you say, hey, listen, cap,
I'm I'm not I'm not comfortable here because I don't
understand what's going on, and you know, and sometimes guy says, oh, yeah,
I'm sorry, Yeah, I kind of tuned out on that.
You know, you're right, and you get things back on track.
So and that's all part of that CRM that that

(21:41):
you know, they adopted.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, now you've said something before, and that's it's interesting.
Was air travel was never meant to be public transportation. Yeah,
the system was never set up. The infrastructure was never
built out to to to be transportation for the masses. Originally,

(22:06):
if you remember your history, originally the airlines were they
were set up to haul the mail and to get
the mail places faster than the trains could. And then
some brilliant marketing guy said, hey, let's put people in
there too, and another brilliant marketing guy, so, well, we

(22:29):
can put a coffee maker in there too, and then
somebody else said, hey, let's put a bathroom in there,
and you know, lo and be old here we are.
But the infrastructure was never set up, and then you know,
we had the hijackings. Post nineteen seventy two, we had
all those hijackings, and that's where the security apparatus that

(22:52):
we basically have today came from. And then and then
of course Post nine to eleven got even work where
it became more intense, and so the infrastructure wasn't set
up for dealing with the masses. The air traffic control

(23:14):
system isn't set up, and up until recently, the current
administration is making a valiant effort to update things. But
we often would joke. We would say, you know, if
Orville and Wilbur could see into the future and could
see the air traffic controlled delays, the bad food, the

(23:37):
rotten schedules, and you know, the uncomfortable seats, would they
have gone forward or they would would they have gone
back to building bicycles? You know? Yeah, you never know.
There probably was a time where they went ah perfect,
like you know, maybe the nineteen seventy or maybe even
fifty five or something, but modern day and not not

(24:00):
too sure.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
Well there's a reason for that, you know. I mean
you look at you look at at where at where
the industry went off track the uh it it really
it really started just before deregulation. But deregulation really really
put a nail in the old the old ways. You know,

(24:26):
the airlines had a business model that they could count
on and uh and it worked sort of. But uh,
then deregulation came along and you had everybody who wanted
to start an airline starting an airline, so you know,
the competition became intense and everybody was clawing for market share.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah. Absolutely, Uh, one question that looms lifetime ban. Do
you think there should be a no fly list for
chronic troublemakers?

Speaker 4 (25:02):
I'll let you in on a little secret. There is
a list. There's actually a number of lists. Every airline
maintains its own list of mis grants. I guess would
be the would be the the appropriate term, and then

(25:22):
the worst of the worst. They get shared. Those names
get shared with the IADA, the International Air Transport Authority
uh or association. They get they get shared with them,
and they maintain a list that all the airlines share.
So there is a no fly.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
List now in your this is just your opinion. Do
you think there's a system in which you could try
to get off that? Or is there have to be
some you know, jurisprudence associated with being put on that list,
because I could see it becoming political or something like that.

Speaker 4 (25:57):
If it's that is that yeah, that is that is
super strict stuff. And I don't have any any real
insight into how they maintain it, or I do know
there's a time limit on it that you know, you
you'll get a second chance, and unless I don't know,

(26:19):
if they've got certain certain levels of offense that just
permanently put you on it and you're never gonna You're
never going to get off of it. I'm not on
the list, so thankfully.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah I'm not either because I'm I've been flying so luckily.
We're good to go so far.

Speaker 4 (26:35):
So so.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
We want to come back and speak here in a
few minutes. But one quick question, FAA should they handle
passengers who refuse to comply differently than what they're doing?

Speaker 4 (26:52):
I think so. I think they should take that ten
thousand dollars fine and they should put it on the
guy that brings his own alcohol on board, or turns
his cell phone on, or or refuses to buckle his
seat belt or you know that that fine should go
to him. Uh, that the the employees, the crew members
doing their job, trying to make it work. You know,
that's it's just totally not fair to them to take

(27:14):
it like that.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, it shouldn't be just criminal. There should be some
more civil action or something that can go with it,
that would that would make a total sense.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
Well in their in their defense, the f A has
been a kinder gentler f A A uh in the
recent memory. And uh, and so they they do tend
to sort of give you they might give you a
talking to, or you might get a letter, or you
know it's it's uh, it's considerably less harsh than it
used to be.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Well, Captain fascinating insights. We're going to have you back
for the next segment. When we come back, we're going
to dig deeper into the culture side of the problem
and we'll hear more about some outrageous behavior from Captain Moore,
who's witnessed four decades of flying. So stay tuned for more.

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Speaker 2 (29:01):
Hi folks, Doctor Curry Myers here to let you know
that my new show is called America's Criminologist with Doctor
Curry Myers. Every Tuesday at one pm is a former
state trooper special agent share for a major county. I
will offer sharp insights into the pressing issues shaping American
society today. I'll have guests, news, and my insights as
an applied criminologist throughout the one hour show. So criminals

(29:23):
and the progressive politicians that allow them to fester beware
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One one before you do.

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top eds to interviews like this and including this radio

(31:34):
show at doctor Currymeyers dot substock dot com. We've been
speaking with Captain Mike Moore, forty year airline captain and
federal flight deck officer, about the rising problem of unruly passengers,
and the decline of civility and air travel. Mike, thanks
again for coming on the show.

Speaker 4 (31:52):
My pleasure.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
All right, let's have some fun. Let's talk some stories.

Speaker 4 (31:57):
Story.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Can you reach down into that brilliant mind of yours
and tell us a few stories that would make us
set back in our seat? Aghast?

Speaker 4 (32:09):
Uh yeah, well, oh put me on the spot there.
You know, you might have to just read the book
when it comes out. I guess, you know, I there's
a few stories. I mean, you know, the in general,
there's something going on at an airline every day. Every day,

(32:32):
there's there's stories.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
What's the what's the strangest or most unusual pet that
ever came on to one of your airlines? Oh?

Speaker 4 (32:44):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (32:45):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (32:45):
Service animals? You know that to have a legitimate service animal,
you have to have one of five maladies. Five five
very serious maladies. And uh that didn't we Oh yeah,
well you go to the inner they're starting to enforce
it now though. That's good To answer your question. I've

(33:09):
seen a miniature Shetland pony.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
You haven't seen what is that? What that weighed about?

Speaker 4 (33:19):
No, they're smaller than that, but they're they're they're about
the size of a big dog. But you know, miniature Shetland.
I've seen a service peacock.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
I saw. How in the world can a peacock be
a be a service pet.

Speaker 4 (33:38):
You'd have to ask the mentally ill people who have
them for service pets. I guess I don't know. I've seen. Uh,
I've seen a kangaroo, had a kangaroo on once, a
little baby kangaroo as a service animal. And of course
you got the dogs and the cats and and so forth.
Friend of mine, I didn't have any. He haven't seen

(34:00):
any of those. My my, my buddy, he had a
had a service chicken that they let, they let go
in first class, and of course it you know, it
made a mess all over.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
But no service squirrels or rats.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
No squirrels.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
There.

Speaker 4 (34:21):
I've heard of a pig, pop billy pig. So yeah,
it's sort of got out of control for a while.
They're they're starting to rein it back in now.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
But that's needed because it's just anything goes and it's again,
you give people an inch, they take a mile. It
seems like in everything it goes back to this lack
of of ah boundaries that we have in life. You know,
there aren't there are no laws there, you know there

(34:50):
are there. There's no civil recourse to laws, there's no
recourse to God's law. Everything is kind of interpreted by
if you interpreted however you wish, and then you're okay
with that. It's getting better because we're actually now enforcing
the law again. But it seems like law enforcement and

(35:12):
airlines had something in common because you're highly regulated. You
got to enforced laws and regulations that you have in
order to make people safe. And you know, there for
a while it was just it was crazy, and COVID occurred.
So what you know, COVID for a seconds. Last week
we had doctor Kelly Victory, who did just an amazing

(35:35):
job explained in the social contagions that are going on,
what did you see as a result of either during
COVID or coming back from COVID that just made things
even worse.

Speaker 4 (35:50):
Well, coming out of COVID in twenty twenty one, there
were fifty nine hundred plus incidents of reported to the
FAA twenty twenty five. Last year there were twenty six hundred.
You know, the masks were a problem, the enforcement was
a problem. People were on edge, you know, and those

(36:16):
people who don't like to be told what to do
or even more on edge, and you know, they were
forced to submit, and so there was there was this
powder keg. And then you take all of that and
all the personalities anyway, and you lock them in an
aluminum tube and you take them to thirty five thousand feet.

(36:38):
You've got a recipe for some discontent.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
You know, claustrophobia, there's have you ever seen occasions where
people would go into severe claustrophobia and that really affect
the mission of the flight.

Speaker 4 (36:59):
Not well. Sometimes those people they try to open the door.
And I find that amusing because the airplane pressurizes to
about nine pounds per square inch of pressure on the inside.
And if it were possible to get the door open,

(37:19):
which it's not, there isn't a man on earth that's
that strong. If it's possible to get the door open,
it swings forward into the slipstream, and at four hundred knots,
you're probably not gonna you're not going to get you know,
the door pushed far enough forward to make a difference.
So when people say, oh, he's he tried to open

(37:39):
the door, I just have to kind of laugh and say,
did they let him because there's there's no possible way
to open that door when it's pressurized. Now on the ground,
that's a different story. And then there are people who
who do you know, they do get severe anxiety and
there people panic attacks. I'll tell you, the flight attendants

(38:03):
are fantastic at dealing with that. You know, they're the
front line. They're they're the tip of the spear back
there in that cabin and they, uh, they do a
number of jobs. Originally, flight attendants stewardesses had to be nurses.
They had to be our ns that was to care
for the passengers. Yeah. Uh, that was a qualification that

(38:24):
they had to have and uh and then they drop that,
but they still, I'll tell you, they are remarkable in
what they do, the way that they uh that they uh,
they handle people. They're they're people persons and they and
they handle people incredibly, you know, and sometimes it's a

(38:46):
it's an offhand joke and and I think to myself,
oh my gosh, he's gonna explode over that, and he
just laughs and sit back in his seat, and you know,
that kind of thing, and they just completely disarmed the
situation they're very good at that medical issues. They're extremely
good at uh at at dealing with medical issues. I
cut myself, I pass out, you know, UH cut myself

(39:08):
shaving and I and I'm I don't do blood well
at all. They they'll wade right in there. They'll and
and what's interesting about that. In thirty seven years, UH
with the majors, I never had an emergency, a medical
emergency where there wasn't at least UH a fire department paramedic,

(39:28):
an E M T. A doctor. UH had a veterinarian
on board one time? Guy had the guy had the
guy had a license. Yeah, he had a he had
a prescription license. He could open that medical kit and
UH and UH you know so and and we've got
you know, the technology now, we've got an uplink to

(39:49):
uh uh to remember the old uh, the old emergency
series on TV where the paramedics l A they would
call ramp Art Hospital and talk to him on the radio.
We've got that capability. We've got that capability on the
airplane and they they use the SAT phone in the
back and they'll call and they'll talk to We have

(40:10):
a service that they that the airline prescribes to or
subscribes to and uh and uh, it's a doctor, and
he's he's a he's an emergency physician, and and he's
probably in an emergency room setting somewhere in a hospital. Uh,
but they call and uh and uh they let the
physician who's attending, or the nurse or the veterinarian talk

(40:32):
to the doctor and they come to a decision. They
they did that because a lot of times medical emergencies
are misdiagnosed on the airplane, and they're they're considered to
be more severe than they are. These doctors are trained
in uh, in aviation medicine, and they ask the right questions.

(40:56):
So if you're having a heart attack and and and
obviously if they've used the AED on you, you're you're
gonna divert. But I've had instances where an older lady
had she just passed out and turned out she was
just dehydrated and you know, had spent too much time
in the sun with her family. But the doctor on

(41:18):
the other end of that line, he kind of diagnosed
that and he said, I don't think you need to divert.
Let's just keep going and she'll be fine. And she
was so and they were. They've always been right. Every
time I've had any dealings with them, they've always been correct.
So that's always ended in an okay fashion.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, that's that's incredible. You know, you you spent a
lifetime in the air. I'm sure, like you said, you've
seen everything inside the plane, but outside. In nineteen seventies,
a guy blew up some balloons, healing and balloons and
tied him to a to.

Speaker 4 (41:57):
A chair, lawn chair, Larry and cher Larry and yep.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
Took off to the skies and had a pellet gun,
and that's how he determined. But he made it to
somewhere in the neighborhood of wasn't it twenty five or
three thousand feet?

Speaker 4 (42:12):
No, he he made it to about sixteen fourteen or sixteen.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Okay, sixteen, so I know it was over the oxygen.
He'm just trying to figure it out how he survived
at sixteen even well you.

Speaker 4 (42:25):
Can breathe there. It's just not great. But he he
didn't actually intend to take off. He slipped and in
the mooring line he had set up came loose and
he dropped. He actually dropped the pellet gun. The pelt
gun was how he was going to get down, and
he dropped the pellet gun. Well, he floated remarkably through.

(42:50):
He was very cold, but he almost froze to death,
but he he floated through the approach path to Lax
International Airport and there was a seven twa seven forty
seven on approach and you can you might be able
to find the conversation it's recorded. You might be able

(43:12):
to find the recordings of the conversation. I've heard them. Uh,
he said, uh, he said something like he said approach
twa whatever the number was, Uh, probably one tw one.
You're not going to believe this, but there's a guy
in a lawn chair up here. And the controller said

(43:34):
what he said, Yeah, there's a guy with weather balloons
on a lawn chair. And a controller came back and
he said, only in California.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
So have you so have you seen anything even remotely?
I know? And you build aircraft, so there's you know,
specialty aircraft that that people. Have you ever seen anything
where you go? What the heck?

Speaker 5 (43:56):
Was that.

Speaker 4 (43:58):
The latest? The most recent? Where I said, what in
the world is that we were? It was at night
and we were coming westbound. I think we were probably
about we were coming into Dallas and we were about
over a little rocket, if I recall, and we saw
this really bright star in the in the sky and

(44:21):
we watched it. It got brighter and brighter. I said,
what in the world is that? You know, I thought, man,
maybe I'll get to see my first alien, my first UFO.
And we watched it for a little bit and it
separated and it put out a huge ring around it,
and we couldn't figure out what it was.

Speaker 5 (44:40):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (44:40):
Later that night I got to digging around and found
out that was a Falcon heavy lift Falcon nine heavy
lift rocket that Elon Musk had launched off the west coast.
They launched it out of Vandenburg, and that's what we
were watching. We were seeing that launch from twelve hundred
miles away.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Oh wow, how fascinating. Speaking of awesome, speaking of UFOs,
ever see anything like that?

Speaker 4 (45:06):
You know, I spent a good portion of my career
flying the Bermuda Triangle. I've never even seen so much
as a needle wiggle, and I'm just unlucky I did.
I did get to experience the Percied meteor shower in
the middle of the night going into Uh. You know,
I was in the Bermuda Triangle going. We were going
to Puerto Rico from New York one night and uh

(45:26):
we left New York at ten o'clock at night. We
generally got in about two thirty or three in the morning.
Uh in San Juan and uh I had been reading
an astronomy book uh previous and uh so I said, hey,
you know, this is the peak of the Percied meteor shower.
And so we got to count falling stars in the

(45:47):
in the you know, as we were flying and you
take the bottom half of the atmosphere and all that
dust out of it, you get a really clear picture.
You see a lot more up there. But it was fascinating.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah, when you're in this stars, I can't imagine how
close everything looks, almost like you to reach out and
touch it. It's going to be you understand it. You're
just a little thing in God's heavens. You know when
you when you see it that way, you you get.

Speaker 4 (46:13):
Out over the ocean where there's no light pollution, and
you look up, you turn all the light okay way,
and it is just expansive.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
What is one thing that uh a passenger? What is
there as is there a one common mistake that a
passenger does when they get on on an airplane.

Speaker 4 (46:36):
Yell at somebody. If you scream at somebody, you know
that's uh, that's the kiss of death. There. You're you're
forever marked and uh you're you're not going to get
very good service. Uh you know it's I'll tell you
a little politeness goes a long way, and I'll give
you I'll give your listeners a little uh a little
tip here. Yeah, a little little airline one on one

(47:01):
carry some chocolates I carry when I travel. I carry
the little individual minem packs like you give away at Halloween.
I carry those little m and ms. And you when
you things aren't going your way and you walk up
to that podium there the agent or you're dealing with
the flight attendants and things aren't going your way or

(47:23):
whatever it is, Uh, that is the one time you
want to stop, put a smile on your face and say, listen.
I know you get yelled at day in and day out,
and I have that urge to yell, but I'm not
going to. Here's some chocolate in it if you can
help me out with whatever your problem is at that time.
If you need a seat change, or or you know something,

(47:45):
if you can help me out, I'd greatly appreciate it
and then turn around and walk away. And I guarantee
in ninety nine point nine percent of the time you're
going to get if there's anything that person can do
for you, they'll go there. They'll find a way to
do it because they're getting read that constantly.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
That is good advice. My wife and I were flying
back from Belgium, uh and we decided to get some
Belgian chocolates, some specifically for the flight attendant, just because
we just thought it would be a good thing to do.
We had some extra you know, carry on luggage that
we had, We had a picture that we had purchased

(48:23):
and there was a little like in the in the
cloak where they can hang coats up, there's a little
area that she was able to put that. But I
didn't want to ask. I just wanted to, you know,
So I gave her some Belgian chocolates and said, if
is there any way that this can be because we
didn't want to have to take it apart and roll
it up. I mean it was a very you know,
hand painted something beautiful. So and she was very kind

(48:45):
and I'm sure those chocolates helped sell it, sell it absolutely.

Speaker 4 (48:51):
And that's a that's a little life hack. They don't
teach you at airline camp, you know, passenger camp.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
How about for pilots, And what's one mistake that pilots
often make. It didn't have to be about flying the
airline the airplane specifically, but what's one thing that's maybe
a little tip for new pilots coming on the job.

Speaker 4 (49:17):
Don't don't don't try to advance too fast, you know, uh,
be respectful of the guys that came before you, that
are sitting there. I recall an incident I had. I
got on the airplane and I was the captain, and
I've ever flown with the first officer before, and and uh,

(49:37):
and I stuck my hand out, I put my bag down,
stuck my hand out, and to shake his hand, I
said Hi, I'm Mike, and and he looks at me
and he said, uh, you're in my seat, and which
you know, I deserve to be promoted, and you're you're
on my way, and uh, you know that I got that.
I got that visceral reaction right here in the base

(50:00):
of my throat, you know it, that little that little not,
and you knew that. I knew that whatever I was
going to say was going to be wrong. So I
turned around and I walked away. I went to the
back of the airplane, and I talked to the flight
attendants back there, and I introduced myself and kind of
got over it, and I came back up and I said, listen,
I said, I don't know if you know, I don't

(50:23):
know what your problem is. But I American Airlines, Uh,
you know, and uh and uh, the FAA and the
rules all specify that I am in charge of the flight.
I signed for the airplane, and that's they designated me
as the guy to take the responsibility. And you know,

(50:47):
it's if you have a problem with that, then you know,
you might want to just get your stuff and get
off the airplane, because technically I signed for the airplane.
It's my airplane, and they're all my seat, you know. Well,
he knew that he would have to go to the
chief pilot's office and explain why the captain had removed
him from the flight. And he thought about it for

(51:09):
a little bit, and you know, me, I'm forgiving. I
didn't see that as such a big deal. And so
he thought about it a little bit, and he looked
at me, and to his credit, he apologized to him.
He said, you know, I probably shouldn't have I probably
shouldn't have said it that way. You know, it was
my fault, and we had a great trip after that.

(51:32):
But just personalities, I've seen guys irritate the flight attendants
from the start. They walk on the airplane and you know,
maybe they've had a bad day, I don't know whatever,
but they start out wrong, they get off on the
wrong foot, and it's a personality game. You know, you're
locked in a tube with personalities and and so you know,

(51:57):
it happens. But I always tried. I always tried to
be cognizant of the fact that you know, I could,
I could make a good day or a bad day.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
Yeah. Absolutely, anything that the airline companies could do to
do a better job with the employees at the at
the organization, there's.

Speaker 4 (52:20):
A long list. You know, that's kind of a loaded question,
because you know, I could, I could, I could go
a number of different directions. They don't do a really
good job. Management doesn't do a really good job of

(52:41):
when when things go to hell in a handbasket, the
weather moves in and the schedules are all messed up,
and and there's airplanes on the gates that need to
be gone and airplanes off the gates that need to
be on the gates, and people are sitting You've sat there,
You sat there and looked at the gate, and you know,
watched it rain or snow or whatever. Yeah. And I

(53:06):
had a Congressman Golmert on one time at two o'clock
in the morning. We'd been sitting there for two and
a half hours at the end of the airport waiting
to get a gate, and the thunderstorms had rolled through
and just messed everything up. And he came up and
knocked on the door, and so we answered the door
and he said, he said, can I just get off
the airplane. I'll walk to the terminal. I'm sorry, Congressman,

(53:29):
I'd go to jail if I let you do. I
can't do it. I'm sorry. I'd love to, But I said,
I will call and see you. I'll bug him again
and see if we can get a gate, because we're
tired too. We've been going all day. And they eventually
got us a gate. But and it's just another one
of those things that Orville and Wilbur didn't foresee.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah, they also probably didn't foresee a guy taking off
his shoes and socks in row twelve.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you from the captain's perspective, there's
no law against that. Now. Uh, the guy in row eleven,
who's who's drinking vodka of his water bottle and he's
and he's intoxicated, there's a law against that. So that
would be as from the captain's perspective, that would be

(54:18):
my priority, would be would be that guy. The rest
of it is just just courteous and that and that
comes down to that's what we're really talking about in
the industry now, is that people are are are less
courteous than they have been in the past. And that's
and that's I've noticed that in society as well. But uh,

(54:40):
it's it's extremely exponentially pronounced when when you're locked in ah,
when you're locked in an aluminum tube and you know
you're you're at altitude.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
One final question, I'll be honest, have you ever wished
there was a trapdoor button that you could get somebody
out of there? After sneaking that bottle of water bottle
with the vodka. Hmmm, we'll even give him.

Speaker 4 (55:10):
As we kind of we kind of reserve the trap
door treatment for the for the for the guy who
steps up there when he gets on airplane with his
private pilot license in his hand and waves it under
her nose and says, hey, if you need some help, well,
I'm in the back in seat twenty six. Oh yeah.
All the time, All the time I got guys guys

(55:31):
fly uh fly Microsoft Flight simulator, and they're like, I
could do that.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Yeah. Now the.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
You know, as for the other guy, uh, you know,
I don't. As for the guy with the water with
the U with the uh you know, the the smelly feet,
I I can't. I mean I can, I can ask
uh you know, him to do something different.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
But all right anyway, Yeah, Mike Moore, thanks so much.
Uh interesting perspective, great career, and appreciate you very much.
Thanks today for joining US America's criminologists. We'll see you
next week, and don't forget to view my work on
substack doctor Curry Meyers dot substack dot com. Stay safe.
Thanks again, Mike, my pleasure.

Speaker 4 (56:15):
Thanks call steal shots.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Wait, shut up dis trusting me as a face shadows
a Secrets lit. Doctor Curry us doing the same scram
anologist coming to