Americas Criminologist 05 26 2026 Guest Chief Scott Hughes

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Col stale sus Gas.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Wait just as a.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Shadows secrets line the last the State as Criminologist sees
a law in the alasys a crime Ragen, say Bruce,

(00:35):
and here's America's Criminologist, doctor Curry Myers.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
All right, all right, all right.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
Welcome to another hour of America's Criminologist. I'm your host,
Doctor Curry Myers, retired sheriff, former state trooper and special agent,
now an applied criminologists and educator. This is the show
where we go deep into the intersection of crime, culture
and public safety. Were broadcasting live from San Bernardino, California,
on KMET, but you can also view our work on

(01:07):
all the streaming services out there, and don't forget to
follow my work personally at doctor Currymeyers dot substack dot com.
All my policy papers, op eds, interviews are all there,
and follow me on x at doctor Curry Myers. This
segment of America's Criminologist is brought to you by Howard
Wagoo premium beef from the enriched Plains of Kansas, ethically raised,

(01:32):
incredibly marbled, and delivered to your doorstep. Visit www dot
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Beef tallow lotion. Yes, it's flying off the shelves. It's
good stuff. Put something natural and wholesome on your face,

(01:53):
not that prospect junk. So, as I said, welcome to
the show. We don't go woke. On many talking points.
We talk about what actually keeps officers in communities safe.
Today we confront really what is referred to in many
ways a hunting, a hunting a reality in policing, one

(02:15):
that takes lives. And it's really because it's been a
bad implementation. It's really been neglectful. It's called the tired
deflation device, or more commonly, the stop stick. Since their inception,
stopsticks have been a steady for officers to use and
their deployment, but unfortunately they've become deadly and they have

(02:39):
not really been effective. Not a year goes by without
an officer being killed or gravely injured, often deploying them
on dark highways. And this is occurring why adrenaline races
in our bodies and traffic blurs by. And it's just
not a tactical failure. It's a training failure, it's a
it's actually an institutional failure. So joining us or break down.

(03:04):
This is a man who's walked the thin blue line
since he was sixteen. Chief Scott Hughes of Hamilton Township, Ohio.
He's not just a chief, he's a trainer, a reformer,
and the founder of Crosden Consulting, and he's here today
to challenge the status quo in pursuit tactics and law
enforcement training. Chief, it's really an honor to have you on.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
Well, thank you, doctor Myer. It's an honor to be
back on your show so always, and we'll hopefully have
you back again. What inspired you to write such a
bold critique of tdd use. That's a great question, and
the reality is I should have been killed numerous times
trying to deploy these things in conditions that were less

(03:47):
than desirable. As a young police officer, I worked in
a jurisdiction that bordered a metro city in Ohio, and
the number of times that I found myself trying to
jump in front of a car that was coming at
me anywhere from fifty to over one hundred miles an
hour to flattened tires and nearly struck was more than one,

(04:13):
and one, honestly was enough. We had a couple very
high profile cases here in the southwest Ohio region where
officers were severely injured, one nearly killed, one killed, and
many more who have been injured to the point where
they've had to retire or their lives have been changed forever.

(04:35):
So since about two thousand and one, I started tracking
nationwide the number of officers who are killed deploying these devices,
and as we sit here today here in late September
of twenty twenty five, we're right at about fifty upper forties,
but forty eight forty nine, and that is since two

(04:56):
thousand and one. And while that number in of itself
is alarming, what's harder to capture, quite honestly, doctor, is
the number of officers who have been hurt or have
lost a leg or you know, been amputated, or have
been injured so bad they've had to medically retire. And

(05:16):
that's a statistic that's just really hard to capture. So
the answer to your question is I just, having nearly
been a victim myself, I just started to paying attention
to it, and it's kind of been my passion for
two decades or more.

Speaker 4 (05:29):
Now, I think it's one of these things where the theory,
the theory seems plausible if you look at it, and
I think that probably was what a TRUP was attractive
to police executive leaders when it first came out. I mean,
it's something that you can carry in the trunk of
your car, you can get out, you can be able
to deploy these, which are basically throwing them or attempting

(05:50):
to throwing them across multiple lanes of traffic. However, in
the practical application, if you've ever I don't encourage this
of anybody, but if you're a police officer, you're used
to standing on the side of the road because you're
constantly either stopping traffic or whatever it may be. The time,

(06:11):
the seconds that goes by that you need in order
to deploy these is almost impossible to get to. You're
either early, you're either too early or you're too late,
and a lot of times it's you're hit by other
traffic because you go out and it really hasn't been
that effective to begin with. So I'm glad we're having

(06:34):
this discussion today because it's something we need to try
to push that envelope on saying we need to do
something different. I think we're now experimenting with some different options,
but it's but it's certainly something that we need to
consider to replace. What are you know you've done some
pretty significant research. Why do you think departments are continuing

(06:57):
to allow this?

Speaker 3 (07:00):
The risks? It's cheap, I think, is the number one answer, right.
I think the price tags affordable. I think, like anything else,
because there's more successes than failures, many agencies just turn
a blind eye to it. They'll bury their heads in
the sand and they'll ignore the fact that we've lost

(07:22):
nearly fifty officers in this country since since two thousand
and one. I think a lot of agencies, if it
doesn't happen to them, it's not going to happen. Kind
of mentality. And listen, you know, if they're done the
right way every single time, they're effective. But to your point, sir,

(07:44):
you know, I've probably flattened more civilian vehicles tires or
police car tires than I have suspects tires because a
lot of times the pursuits are going by, you're not
able to get set up just right where you need
to be, so you find yoursel off just literally going
to your trunk, ground them out and throwing them. Well,
by the time you throw them out there because you

(08:06):
can't get them set up the right way, they don't intent,
they don't hit their intended target. Instead, they they hit
another vehicle. I've I've thrown them before and they've bounced
off a windshields.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
You know.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
The the part about these tire deflation device is that
that really is kind of concerning is is the training
behind them?

Speaker 5 (08:30):
Right?

Speaker 3 (08:30):
You know, they they encourage you to train with them,
but when you read the training manuals from the from
the manufacturers, they talk about things like officers should go
to an empty parking lot and practice deploying them. Officers
should should practice in a parking lot under controlled environment.
Like anything else in law enforcement, there's nothing controlled about
a our environment. The last place that I've ever deployed

(08:53):
a stop stick is in a parking lot with nowhere
the cars are around. It's again, it's it's generally on
a on a roadway or a highway. And even the
training doesn't replicate the real world practical application of these devices.
They have made some technological changes. Some of the companies
that produce these have produced remote control versions where you

(09:16):
can stand so many feet away, and that is certainly
a better option. Again to do that, though, you have
to get quote unquote set up far enough in advance
and know the pursuits coming to get them in a
perfect spot where you can where you can do that deployment.
And my experience and experience of many other law enforcement

(09:37):
professionals is those situations where you can actually get set
up at the right place, at the right time, at
the right moment are less frequent than one might think.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
Yeah, everything's got to work out, and as we know
in law enforcement, they're you know, Murphy's an optimists, and
it generally doesn't happen that way. And then you've got
to think about the unintended consequences of live ability. I mean,
if we're if we're forcing other people's cars off the road,
then that's a significant issue where they're you know, and
they may be not adapted driving after they've had entire

(10:11):
blowouts like that, and they could crash their own vehicle.
And then yeah, they traveled of officers. Sorry, no, that's okay.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
I was just going to say, and one of my
I traveled the country training police officers, and I've had
two occasions now where police officers walked up to me,
uh when we're having this conversation and they've shown me
either a photograph of their cruiser, a photograph of a
friend of theirs, or one guy walked up with part

(10:41):
of his pointer finger had been amputated because when he
when he went to throw the the uh tired inflation
device out. Some of the companies they put them on
a string like a fishing line. So you put the
device on one side of the road, you roll this
fishing line across the street, and then when the car
comes by, you pulled the string. Well, because he was
an hurry and and stress had set in, the string

(11:03):
got caught on his finger. Well, when the car went by,
his finger got caught and it literally tore the front
of the top of his finger off and he lost
his finger. We show a video of an officer in
the Midwest who is on an interstate and his cruisers
on the crossover and he runs out and he tries

(11:24):
to throw these sticks out, and he does the car.
The car turns and hits him and flings it al
stir in the air and both of his legs are
broken immediately. And when you watch the video. It's absolutely horrific,
and as soon as you see it, everybody in the
class is like, what is he doing?

Speaker 4 (11:37):
What is he doing?

Speaker 3 (11:38):
And I'm like, I paused, and I said, the same
thing we've all done. We've all been caught up in
the moment, right, and uh, you just find yourself in
these situations and it's like, it's like a lot of
stuff we talk about long enforcement, and I think you
and I have had this conversation in a different episode.
You know, it's all about training and how how we're
training officers and are we giving him the right kind
of training. The other thing with these devices specifically, is

(12:05):
we need to put restrictions on where they can use them.
Never on a highway. You've got to be very careful
at nighttime. Uh you've got to be If you want
to put them on exit ramps, that's fine, so that
if they get off they hit surface streets, That's that's
one thing. But uh, you know, if the vehicle is
doing over a certain amount of speeds, officers should not
be allowed to go out put themselves in front of

(12:25):
the in front of the vehicle to try to to
try to stop them. So it's it's some of those
policies and procedures that that could also make an impact.

Speaker 4 (12:37):
You know, I think people really don't. And you know,
we have a tendency to Monday Monday Morning quarterback, even
in law enforcement, where we see these videos and say, oh,
what's this guy doing? But when when you're in the
heat of the moment. Uh, there's no question that when
you are like this, and if you've ever been in
a shooting incident or those kinds of issues, you you

(12:59):
find yourself where your peripheral vision, your dexterity, all of
those are significantly reduced. And in particular, this takes a
lot of dexterity to be able to number one, get out,
get into your trunk, deploy this all within maybe a
matter of seconds. Maybe you might have a minute, they

(13:20):
may you might have five minutes. But you know, then
all of a sudden you're sitting there and everything you know,
kind of goes down, and then you try to try
to amp yourself back up because here they come, you know,
and all of a sudden you miss that opportunity to
deploy them. But is there something that is there something
to say about that when you when you deal with
again the physical side and the fact that you just

(13:44):
don't have the dexterity and the ability to manipulate your hands.

Speaker 3 (13:48):
Well, that's certainly an issue.

Speaker 4 (13:49):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
You know, since I've written a few articles about tied
inflation devices, one of which was picked up by a
by a large newspaper on the wet out West after
an officer was killed deploying these devices, I had several
manufacturers reach out to me and one of them actually
sent me a promo or excuse me, they sent me

(14:13):
a a their device to try it out to see
what I thought about. In fact, we still have it,
and it's certainly come a long way since the devices
that I used to carry, which was a fishing line
and the plastic sleeves. It's a remote controlled device, which,
as I stated earlier, is a good uh, it's a

(14:34):
good move right, we're head in the right direction if
you can get set up the right way and all
the things we've already discussed. The biggest downside to it
is because it's a it's a big, you know, square
unit with these with these retractable spikes on it. It's heavy. Yeah,
so you're asking perhaps an officer with less upper body

(14:56):
strength to try to reach over pick this thing up.
I mean it. You know, I'm a strong guy, I think,
and it's heavy for me. So to your point, you know,
out of a trunk, you know, yeah, pulling out of
a trunk, setting it up, you know, all that kind
of stuff. Now again, if you can get set up
the right way and it works as designed, it's definitely

(15:17):
you know, night and day from where we were. But
like anything else, you're still in most situations, you're still
putting a police car on a road. You're having an
officer stand somewhere near that police car, which do you know,
even if it's remote controlled, you know, the officer would
have to get farther far enough away from his or
her own cruiser. Because we've got numerous cases, including right

(15:40):
here in southwest Ohio in twenty twenty, we had an
officer who was tragically killed. And she was doing everything
she was taught to do. In fact, she was she
unlike me, she was doing it by the book. She
actually got got the devices set up. She was all
the way on the other side of the highway. She
was standing by her patrol car when the when the

(16:01):
fleeing fell and drove his truck right into the back
of her car. She was doing exactly what she was
trained to do. She she unlike where I was. Numerous
times she was not in the road. She was not
you know, she had time to set up and she
had done exactly what she was trained to do, and
she still fell victims. So even with remote control devices,

(16:23):
you're going to have to put yourself in a position
that may not be practical in a lot of our
surface streets and interstates, uh here in America. But again
it's progress.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
You know.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
One of the we talked before we went on air.
You know, one of the things that that I've noticed
is a lot of times what starts on the West
coast takes years, sometimes decades to work its way to
the East coast, and probably vice versa. And you know,
we at my agency, you know, we're getting all of
our officers trained in the in the pit maneuver right

(16:58):
pursuit intervention technique. Again, a lot of places have been
doing this for for literally for decades. And my position
as a leader is I would much rather just end
the pursuit asap right, prevent the purse from even fleeen.
I'd rather repair a bumper or replace a police car
than have to to bury an officer. So I think

(17:18):
some of that mindset with leadership and just not doing
things the same way we've always done them could could
take us far too.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
Yeah, I'm a I'm a huge fan, and there's nothing
more beautiful than a good pity maneuver.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
On on top of it. You do see like uh,
I saw a video recently in uh uh. In fact,
there's a there's a state patrol uh down south. The
state starts with a G where they uh. They are
well known for pursuits and they will hit, they will
pit you in a second. But the other thing is

(17:52):
is criminals know, right, Criminals know, Hey, if we flee
from the police here, they're gonna they're gonna spin our
car out and we're not and to get away. And
and that brings up another great point, doctor is that
and that is legislatures in these states have to pass
laws and hold criminals accountable when they flee from police.

(18:13):
You know, I am not of the position that we
should not chase anybody. I am of the position that
we need to use common sense, we need to have
policies and procedures in place. I also understand that the
average person quote unquote doesn't flee from law enforcement because
they have a headlight out. There's an underlying reason why
they're fleeing. And you know, I've been debated on this

(18:36):
on both sides, and I get it, and I know
we're not here to debate. My experience has been that
the minor violations are they're always fleeing for a bigger reason.
So what type of policing does the community want and
the community expect, because that's what you're going to get
if if they tie the officer's hands and say, hey,
we're not going to chase anybody, then you run the

(18:58):
risk of criminals flee or you pit them or otherwise
disable their vehicles where they can't run, and that sends
perhaps another message that hey, we're not going to tolerate that,
and if you run from us, you'll be apprehended. So again,
you're going to have strong arguments on both sides of that.
I try to find something in the middle that works

(19:18):
for my agency, and it may not work for all,
but certainly, holding criminals accountable when they do flee law enforcement,
I believe sends a message that you know, in this state,
that's not going to be tolerated.

Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yeah, and I also believe that you know. Of course,
there's when I even worked the road and this is
a long time ago as a state trooper. There sometimes
a police officer said, let the trooper have it, because
they're they're going to stop it. You know, they may
have been they have been handcuffed in their own department,
but they knew that the at least in my case,
a Kansas trooper was going to put it to a stop,

(19:54):
which can be a good thing.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (19:56):
There's also something I think we need to talk about
is this is my opinion. Chief, you may agree or disagree.
I think in the last six or seven years, we've
seen a different change. We've seen a change in criminal
arc types where they become much more of a mental
issue in a combination with social contagions and combination of

(20:18):
the dark psychological traits. I wrote a book called The
Avent a Feral Man where I explain this phenomenon where
police officers are now targeted much more. In the past,
we might get a chase, but it's because they wanted
to get away. Now it's yes, they want to get away,
but they have a they are willing to kill you,

(20:41):
which in the past it was like, okay, I'm just
trying to get away. But it seems like today we're
having a lot more offensive capabilities that are being done
by people who we now come into contact on the
side of the road. It's still ninety five percent of
the public is still good people. I'm not saying that
everybody's that way, but we deal with five percent of

(21:05):
the population, and that five percent of the population, to me,
is getting to a different level on how they're behaving.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah. You know, one of the things that I say
in my trainings is prepare for resistance, but anticipate compliance.
And to your point, you know, ninety five percent of
the folks that we deal with even when even when
we make arrest and I think I think it was
your show that we talked about use of force and
some of the numbers, and if not, I apologize, But
you know, the majority, the majority of folks that we

(21:36):
interact with, even we arrest, we don't use force. They
go away peacefully, we don't have any drama. However, to
your point, when we train officers, like anything else, we
have to train them for worst case scenarios so that
when those folks do cross our paths, we're prepared to
deal with it. So I would agree that there there

(21:58):
seems to be an uptick and folks being more brazen
with law enforcement. I can tell you here in Ohio
in the month of May this year, we had three
officers killed. All three of those were ambush style shootings
or excuse me, excuse me, ambush attacks. All of those were.

(22:20):
One was involved a vehicle where a deputy sheriff was
intentionally ran over, and one was a domestic where the
officer was ambushed when he pulled up to the scene.
And then the third one. All three of these are troubling.
The third one was just you know, I don't know
how you prevent any of these. This one, for sure.

(22:43):
You have an officer sitting doored up what we call
doortop right, sitting inside by side in a parking lot,
having lunch, and they were one was killed. Two more
were shot by an individual who had ambushed them. He
knew they were presus summably, he knew they were going
to be there. That was where they went for launch.
Was a common spot to sit and kind of take

(23:04):
a break. And these guys were just targeted for in uniform,
being in a police car. So yes, I would agree
with you that there there does seem to be more
brazen acts or folks who are more willing to to
challenge us than perhaps in years past. I know the
FFP and some other organizations have put out some numbers

(23:27):
that your listeners could look at that show ambush attacks
on law enforcements, excuse me, on law enforcement up the
last several years, including right here in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
Soy, and that doesn't include the numbers on aggravated assaults.
Again that we're usually lagged because all every data that
goes into the FBI lags as a result, but we're
we have definitely seen an uptake and up to excuse me,
in aggravated assaults on law enforcement in particular if you
if you throw in federal agencies, that's been significant as well.

(24:01):
So you know this is I mean, I'm hearing Kansas,
Kansas is the last four officers that have been killed
this year have been murdered.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
And yeah, in fact, I just saw a stat today
I think that suggested Kansas. I don't want to misspeak,
but Kansas was at the top of the list. Third,
I put that out on my Okay, that's why I
read Yeah, I read it on your for Third.

Speaker 4 (24:27):
I think Texas and then Georgia, and I think Kansas
was tight. Now that means tied. That means there there
were four or five other agencies.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
That had not What's interesting about that. What's interesting about that, sir,
is when you look at when you look at population
of Kansas compared to Texas, California, and Florida. Right, Like,
what Kansas being at the top of this list or
near the top of the list. Uh, if they are,
if they are leading uh or beating out if you will,

(24:59):
those other states with much more population. That is concerning
because to your point of session and go, I think
it shows you know, it doesn't matter where you are.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
There there is this shift that you know. I never
wanted to I never wanted to be the mindset that
you had to work in a big city. Uh before
you were uh you know, you were a threat, right
or you were gonna be You're gonna you were gonna
be a victim, right. I. I never I never had
that mindset that, well, because you're not in a big
city doesn't mean you're you're you're immune from violence. I

(25:30):
I've always been on the mindset and again we teach
this in our classes anytime anywhere by anyone for any reason.
Be prepared, not paranoid. But when you start to see
states like Kansas, Ohio, uh, some of these other you know,
not so populated areas with these attacks on officers, it

(25:51):
does raise con It does raise concern as a as
a chief to am, I doing everything I can to
keep my people safe.

Speaker 4 (25:59):
Yeah, exactly. Now, two of these officers work in Kansas
City on the Kansas side, but two of them were
in western Kansas to your point, and it's once again,
it's just this kind of change in criminal arc type.
And you're absolutely right, Chief, situational awareness should be something
that you practice wherever you're at, whatever agency you're with,

(26:20):
because we know that people, you know, we live in
a transient world, and that means criminals are transients as well.
They're going from point A to point B, and they're
stopping at getting gas and they're getting off the interstate
and they're committing crime while they're traveling. But the last
two have been people who have lived lived in those cities,

(26:41):
you know, so they're responding to domestics and things like that.
So we're going to take a break, and so I'd
like to keep you on and come back for the
second segment.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
If you're willing absolutely.

Speaker 4 (26:58):
Stay tuned, just be back.

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Just a few minutes.

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Speaker 4 (30:09):
Hi, folks, Doctor Curry Myers here to let you know
that my new show, It's called America's Criminologist with doctor
Curry Myers, every Tuesday at one pm between the Dave
Ramsey Show and the Kevin mccola Show. Is a former
State Trooper special agent share for a major county. I
will offer sharp insights into the pressing issues shaping American
society today. I'll have guests, news and my insights as

(30:31):
an applied criminologist throughout the one hour show. So criminals
and the progressive politicians that allow them to fester beware
because this show is directed at you. America's Criminologist every
Tuesday at one pm.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
On k m e T.

Speaker 4 (30:55):
Welcome back looking. If you're looking for deeper conversations on faith, family, information,
and my friends, join me on the Saint Michael's Podcast,
my weekly podcast where I examine the root causes of
cultural and criminal decay. You can subscribe a doctor Currymeyers
dot substack dot com and you can also subscribe at

(31:15):
Saint Michaelsgroup dot substack dot com. Truth needs a voice,
so let it be yours. Feel free to take a
look at that. And if you want to have me
come to an event or retreat, you can book me
through Catholic Speakers dot com. That's Catholic Speakers dot com.
My guest today is Chief Scott Hughes, not just a
season police executive, but the founder of Crosden Consulting and

(31:37):
the creator of Legally Confident Tactically Confident. This isn't your
standard legal update class. This is about building officers who
are grounded in the constitution as they are in command presence,
officers who make lawful, ethical decisions under fire. Chief, Let's
dive into your training in this area. Yeah, appreciate again

(32:02):
you coming on the show. What was the core mission
behind Legally Confident Tactically Confident?

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Well, it's ironic that you wanted to discuss this today
because the reason that legally confidently Confident was even born
was because of the death of an officer. And that
officer was Kaya Grant, who worked for the Springdale, Ohio
Police Department. And she was the officer that I was
explaining to you earlier about who was killed on the

(32:33):
highway after doing everything that she was, you know, taught
doing and doing it the right way.

Speaker 4 (32:38):
It was.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
It was at that funeral that I met an individual.
His name is Robert Meeter. He is a retired commander
from a large city here in Columbus, and he's also
a lawyer. Not only is he a lawyer, but he's
a legal instructor. And my experience with attorneys and legal
instructors in the law enforcement circle has not been positive

(33:00):
of for for over two decades at the time. And
it's fun because I don't know, yeah, yeah. When I
actually met him for the first time through a mutual friend,
I expressed to him that I have never met an
a legal instructor who was really any good and I'll
never forget. He looked at me and he said, well
you just did, and he had this fully weird look
on his face, and I was like, okay. So he

(33:23):
and I had a conversation and I said to him.
I said, Bob, you know, I've noticed through my travels
across the country that and in viewing and in reviewing
you know, some of these quote unquote high profile cases
and whatnot, there seems to be an issue where officers
don't know legally what they can do. And when they

(33:45):
don't know legally what they can do, you see their
tactics start to suffer almost instantaneously. For example, you know,
they'll struggle with can I get somebody out of a car?
Can I pat somebody down? Can I reach in their
pot gid? Can I cross the threshold of a door?
And they don't know, so so they freeze up, or

(34:06):
they do something they shouldn't do, and they find themselves
in a fight.

Speaker 8 (34:10):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (34:11):
You know you mentioned the FBI earlier and how their
data is, you know, typically a year or two behind
because of you know, collecting data and stuff on use
of force and and every year the FBI publishes a
report called the Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted Report FBILEOCA.
And in the LEOCA report they talk about everything from

(34:33):
offender type and sex and race and weight, mental status,
where they intoxicated, I mean, they what kind of weapon
did they have? They talk about all of these different
things related to the offenders, and one of the area
one of the things that they talk about is they
talk about how far away the offenders were when they

(34:54):
attacked or assaulted the officer, and a lot of times
it's about five to six feet away in an arrest situation.
So if you're going to make an arrest and you
don't know whether or not you can put your hands
on somebody or do you can search them, you're in
that five to six feet away. You shouldn't be thinking
about legally, am I in the right space? You should
be focusing on your tactics. Well, they're not thinking about

(35:16):
their tactics because they're confused on the legal side of
the house. So Bob and I got together and basically
we created a class called Legally Confident Tactically Confident, where
Bob talks about the legal side which you can and
can't do, and he does it in such a way
that I've never seen a legal instructor present this way.

(35:38):
He has props that he uses. You know, we'll do
a class on pat downs and he'll actually research the case.
And there's one case in particular that I know he
talks about where the offender was wearing a car hard jacket.
So like Bob will bring a car hard jacket to
the training class, he'll have somebody put it on, and
he'll actually go through what they were doing in that moment,

(35:59):
where then the officers can understand exactly what it was
and not just a PowerPoint slide or a picture on
a screen. And then what I do is I kind
of come in and all all addressed the tactical side
of the house. Right, So if you're going to handcuff someone,
or you're gonna you're gonna search someone, or you're gonna
do whatever it is you're gonna do, this is kind
of the tactical way that I believe you should you

(36:20):
should do it. So we've we've put together this class
and we we only offered here in Ohio right now.
But it's it's a great course because I think officers
leave their leave that class feeling better up here in
their heads, in their brains, and then they feel better
with their hands and what they can and can't do.
So yeah, we've been offering that class since twenty twenty.

(36:44):
We're doing you know, probably at least thirty classes this year.
We're already booking classes into twenty twenty six, and uh,
you know, I feel good that we're we're making a
difference in in these officers, whether they're rookies or veterans.

Speaker 4 (37:01):
You know, I think that's wonderful. I absolutely love teaching
through outcomes based learning. I think it's the only way
to do it that I hardly ever use a PowerPoint
and anything that I do, and usually everything is either
tabletop exercises or outcome based education and learning. And this
is to your point, this is something that a lot

(37:22):
of people may not understand, but you have to be
In most states, it takes you longer to be a
barber than a police officer.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
As far as the regulatory eighteen hundred hours here in
Ohio to be a barber, fifteen hundred to be a cosmetologist,
right about seven hundred and forty to be a police officer.

Speaker 4 (37:39):
Yeah, I think people are just you know, in Ohio
probably has some better standards than some other states.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
Oh, it's definitely worse in other places for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (37:49):
So I mean, you know, we have to you know,
we were kind of before we aired, we were kind
of poking fun at the fire department, you know, and
they get all this stuff and all that kind of stuff.
It's the Fire Service has made things more professional for them.
I give great kudos to them because they have standards

(38:11):
that they have set, and the national standards are you've
got to you know, they have convinced their cities and
states and counties that you have to follow the national standard.
And if you're you know, if you're going to buy
a piece of equipment, there's a national standard for it.
If you're going to buy a particular pump and lap,
national standard. If there's going to be a bunker suit,

(38:34):
if there's going to be training, there's a national standard.
And here we are in law enforcement. You know, we're
trying to find our way in this kind of world
and and we almost always forget about the Constitution. And
I you know, I like to say that I'm not
only an applied criminologist and I focus on public policy,

(38:55):
but I'm a criminal justice ethicist. And it is extra
extremely important that we have good people that have a
foundation and understanding of the Constitution. But it's got to
be taught in real life and real world activity so
the police officer can understand. I have made the argument
that we have got to lengthen our training capabilities and

(39:20):
then our in services are a joke. You know, in
most states it's forty hours and twenty of twenty of
those hours is usually inside firearms training. And you know,
we hardly do any use of force other than firearms.
We don't practice. You know, more and more police officers
bless their heart, or taken these things on themselves. They're

(39:42):
going to jiu jitsu, they're going to self defense.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
I just had the.

Speaker 4 (39:48):
On the lou Desmond Show. I had the chief of Lenexa,
the assistant chief of Leneksha. They have totally redone their
police department, all based on mental health and training and
all of that stuff. Provided they get an hour of
each day to go do physical fitness. And so we
have to change the paradigm on this issue big time.

(40:11):
What say you?

Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah? First of all, I'm proud to say that my
officer is allowed to work out every day on duty.
I'm proud to say that we have a physical therapist,
excuse me, an athletic trainer. He gets mad when I
say physical therapist. I don't know why, but we have
an athletic trainer who's in our city, excuse me, in
our township every week that they have access to. My
officers are encouraged, if especially my night shift officers are encouraged.

(40:36):
If they're find themselves tired or sleepy, they come back
to the office, they can close their eyes for a
twenty thirty minute power nap. It's not frowned upon. Research
suggests twenty to thirty minute power nap is enough to basically,
I'll keep it a high level recharge your batteries. So
I want to go back to the fire department. The
reason the fire department is where they are, in my opinion,

(40:58):
is a couple of things. One, their schedule is better
suited to allow for training, right, exactly right, they're twenty
four on four dat off or something like that. You know,
I joke when they're not putting the wet stuff on
the hot stuff, they're training, they're they're they're they're training
on on running piping. Yeah, but their training on their training.

Speaker 8 (41:24):
You know.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
One of the articles that I wrote on the website
Crosdenconsulting dot com c r O s D and Crosdenconsulting
dot com. In my blog, I talk about how they
want us to be professionals, and I use the I
use it. I use a baseball analogy. They want us
to try, they want us to train and perform like

(41:45):
a professional major league baseball team, but they give us
t ball training and and until the powers to be
figure out a way to properly fund training, it's that
we're going to continue to kick the can down the road.
Here in my state. We've made some progress. We still

(42:05):
got a lot of work to do. We got a
lot of work to do. But you know, we're mandating
twenty four to forty hours of continued professional training every year.
That is nothing when you're in a high stress life
or death situation and expected to perform and not make
a mistake.

Speaker 8 (42:23):
Right.

Speaker 3 (42:24):
The reason that a major league baseball player who's playing
the outfield gets chastised for missing a routine flyball is
because a major league baseball players trained to never make
an air. They train, they train, they train, They get
to the ballpark four to six to eight hours before
the game starts. They do batting practice, they do fielding exercises,

(42:45):
they watch film, they eat, they do more field and exercises,
They stretch, they get loose their conditions to never make
an air. Yet we want to hold police officer to
the same standard and we give them next to nothing
for training. That system doesn't work. And then, unfortunately, in
some parts of the country and some jurisdictions, if you

(43:07):
make a mistake or an error, you're on trial for it.
But we haven't. We haven't given them what they need
to be successful. Eighteen hundred hours to be a barber,
fifteen hundred hours to be a cosmetogoist, seven hundred and
forty ish to be a cop. That's not how you
set people up for success.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
And you brought up I'm glad we wrote this topic
is really important and people need to understand it because
we need the public support in order to increase budgets.
And people say, oh, I can't believe you're talking about
increased budgets. Listen, folks, eighty to ninety percent of a
police department's budget is in man it's it's basically salary
and benefits.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
Some are some are more, some are less, but.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
General, let's say on the average, it's closer to Now,
you get a small agency, it's probably ninety five percent, right,
and we have to get it where that is like
fifty five percent of the budget. So that's how budget
poor we are on operational expenses, training expenses, equipment expenses.

(44:11):
And it's truly because we haven't done national standards where
we hold people accountable. And when I say people, i'm
talking about the people who approve the budgets. It's the
city councils and the county commissions and the state government
that we're seeking the same path day in and day out.
The other thing is law enforcement, just like fire and off,

(44:33):
first responders and rows and bridges, were a core government
service and we have been competing with non core government
moneies more and more every year, where public moneys are
going to things that didn't used to be part of
government service. And so well, when you constant this difficulty,
when you.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
And when you demonize law enforcement, you attack law enforcement,
you have people leaving in droves and going getting the
heck out of this job. We don't have bodies to
backfill the schedules. So now you have gaps and schedules. Well,
the last thing an agency can afford to do is
take someone off of a schedule to go put them
in a training class, because now you're running, you're running

(45:12):
short on the road. Well, that system is not going
to work either, because now you've got you're either taking something.
You're either you're either pulling somebody out of training class.
They can't go to training because they got to cover
the street. Well, now you've got people covering the street
who are working doubles, uh, missing off days, mandatory overtime. Well,
now you know what, that's a recipe for, doc, that's

(45:33):
a recipe for more use of force, more citizens complaints,
worse decision making because they're tired, they're not getting sleep.
This this this, this is a this is an issue
that just continues to to happen year after year after
year after year, and to your point, until the powers
to be, whether it's at the state level, the local,

(45:54):
the county level, of the local level and some of
these jurisdictions figure out, hey, this system it doesn't work
this way, and they make those changes. It's just going
to keep being the same thing over and over again.
You know, it's it's it's a definition of insanity doing
the same thing over and over again, expect a different results.

Speaker 4 (46:12):
Yeah, I know. We don't get help from many fellow
academicians in my line of work, criminologists that always are
looking at things differently, and they're saying, well, you've got
to have a certain percentage per you know, a thousand people,
and here's what the percentage is. And as a result,
but time in and time in again we see where
law enforcement you're slotted let's say for one hundred police officers,

(46:34):
and every year you're going to be held accountable to well,
you've got five that you can fill and so you're
but you're still slatted for those one hundred when in reality,
if we're going to have increased training, increased capabilities, we
need more like one hundred and fifty to be able
to have those officers where you can train. And you know,
some of that may be your week coming back to work,

(46:57):
is a slot of training for that week as opposed
to the real work. Not only would would that work,
and there's a lot of things to figure out, but
you spend that week with a little bit of downtime.
You're focused on training, but you get some mental health
and menial and wellness back because now you can focus
on what to do, how to do it, and get

(47:17):
back and kind of get back rounded at the square
level before you hit the street again.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
You know, I'm proud of what we've done at my agency,
where your typical suburban agency in America. Right, We're thirty
ish folks. We're covering about thirty something square miles, thirty
some thirty thirty two thirty four thousand residents. We're your
average suburb, right. So there's more departments my size than
there are the lapdes and the NYPS in Chicago. Right.
So I think I think that I am I'm relatable

(47:46):
to the average police department in America. I am lucky. Obviously,
I value training, so I made it a priority as
the leader nine years ago when I took over. We're
going to change how we train. So I'm proud now
that I've got extremely competent individuals and on my staff.
We we fire our guns four times a year. We're

(48:08):
going to the range four times a year. And we're
not just standing in front of paper targets. We're putting
them in various positions, laying on their backs, on their
on their stomachs, on their sides, they're they're they're shooting
in vehicles, out of vehicles, through the windshield around the car.
We're trying to put them in situations with their firearms
that are going to replicate the real world. In addition

(48:28):
to that, I've got a couple really phenomenal what I'm
gonna call ground fighting instructors who have been through training
and are certified. We're on the mats multiple times a year,
training in those worst case scenarios and as. And then
one more thing we do basically monthly trainings as well.

(48:48):
While those monthly trainings are just done in briefing or
roll called and we're just simply reviewing some fundamentals. My
point is this, I'm proud of what we do here.
That we're training, you know, four times a year with
our firearms, four time times here on the mats, monthly
trains and roll call and briefing and constantly watching videos
and discussing things. That's still not enough. But I know
what I'm doing here is probably top two percent of

(49:11):
what a lot of partners doing around the country. So
if I wasn't committed as a leader, and I didn't
develop the folks, and I didn't hire on and have
confidence staff, we might be just another statistics. So I
think part of it too is leaders have to take
have to adopt the mindset that my men and women

(49:31):
going home at the their shift is the only thing
that really matters to me at the end of the day,
and when I teach leadership classes around the country and speak,
I tell them your job as a leader just to
make sure your people have the tools and the equipment
to do their job, and to do their job to
the best of their ability, and make sure they go
home after every shift. That being said, I wish I

(49:52):
could say that they're the majority of leadership and law
enforcement organizations across this country. Had my mindset, but that's
just simply not the case. That's just that's disheartening, it
really is.

Speaker 4 (50:03):
Yeah, and then you get about close to eighty percent
of the law enforcement agencies in America or less than
fifteen thousand that they serve a population of less than
fifteen thousand people, and so you get this, you know,
this delayed to you know, there are some places where
you literally have to wait a year before you get
somebody into a state academy because you're not big enough

(50:24):
to have your own academy. And you are putting people
out on the street that have not been trained because
you have to you don't have any other people. Yeah,
no fault of them, and it's legal, so it's allowed,
and they do their best to try to prep them
as best they can but it's it's a no win
situation for the law enforcement officer, and it's a no

(50:46):
win situation a lot of times for the executive. But
we need to have we need to kind of have
a a reawakening, if you will, of standing up for
the profession of policing, to take it to a next
level and say enough is enough. We have got to
be able to have the funding to be able to

(51:07):
do the kind of work that needs to be done.
It's going to make for a safer America, a better America,
and it's time to do away with all this. You know,
if you we don't need to reimagine police. We don't
need to do all these things that people are trying
to do.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
We know what to do.

Speaker 4 (51:26):
We just need to fund it correctly and take care
of it and then be able to reward our people.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
I'll say this, I see this pendulum swinging a little
bit over the last several months. I see cops in
some places being allowed to be cops again. I see
folk kind of standing up for criminal behavior. And when
folks are attacking law enforcement officers, I see where they're

(51:53):
going after the offenders more so than perhaps they were
in the past, and that is encouraging. We still got
a lot of work to do. We still we still
got a whole judges accountable and ensure that they're giving
you know, appropriate sentences. You know, attacking law enforcement should

(52:14):
be mandatory time in my opinion, But you know, that's
one opinion. I think you do. What's that I'm with you?
Oh yeah, I think yeah, I think you know. I
think you set the tone by you know, telling folks, Okay,
if you attack a police officer, you're gonna be held accountable.
You're going to jail, right You're going to jail. You
run from police, You're going to jail. I feel like

(52:35):
that would make a big difference. Also in acting laws
that protect police officers. There's there's a couple there's a
couple of laws right now that are kind of stalled
out the federal level where you know, Protect and Serve
Act being one of them. There's some others out there
where if passed, there will be stifferent penalties and stuff

(52:56):
for for attacking officers. And there's gonna be abilities, uh,
oportunities to pursue things federally that are currently available right now.
So again, I think I think we're head in the
right direction.

Speaker 6 (53:09):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
My concern is how long will this momentum carry us?
Will we go backwards again? Will we continue on on
this right on this path? I guess time will tell. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:21):
Absolutely, And I don't want to leave out as a
former sheriff, I don't want to leave out correctional officers
which are often right even less trained in given less
capabilities than police officers. So what's next for Crosden Consulting
and how should people look and see what you're doing
and following your work.

Speaker 3 (53:38):
Well, I'm always blogging, I'm always doing my own podcast,
So folks can check me out at Crosden c r
O s D and Crosdenconsulting dot com. Follow me on
X at Chief s Hughes. That's Chief s h U
G h E S. Chief.

Speaker 4 (53:56):
What a great conversation, man, I really enjoyed it. Thank you, yep,
you bet so. Thanks again, folks, This is Kurt doctor
Curry Meyers, America's criminologists. Again, big thanks to Chief Scott Hughes.
And remember, crime doesn't start in the streets, starts in
the hearts and minds of broken institutions. Let's rebuild them together,
starting with faith, family, information, and don't Forget. Tonight, I'll

(54:19):
be on the Low Desmond Company Show. Our guest will
be doctor John Gentry, former CIA analyst and retired intelligence officer.
We're going to be talking about Antifa until next time.
Stay vigilant, stay educated, and stay free.

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(55:04):
cross break and change trust on the frame.

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