Sex, Stigma & Communication: Breaking the Silence in Love & Intimacy

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_06 (01:23):
Well, hey, hey, my beautiful people.
Welcome back to Acts LymeBridget the Gap Podcast.
This is where we talk aboutlove, sex, relationship,
cultural differences, and somuch more by Bridget the Gap
between them all and teachingthe world on sex language,
attitude, and spiritualuplifting.
I am your host, Naomi Banks.
And as always, I am joined by myincredible co-host, Doc Brown

(01:44):
Mike Mike.
What's going on?

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It's all good, all good.

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Are you ready for this real raw conversation
today?
I want to say hey hey to all ofmy BTG crew.
I see you all out there.
Hey, hey, hey, hey.
Well, today we have some amazingguests that is coming with us
that we're gonna be talkingabout a topic that um is very

(02:06):
taboo at times.
You believe it's very taboo attimes, but they are going to
help us to break it down withthe barriers surrounding this
conversation as uh two amazingguests will come with us.
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SPEAKER_06 (03:50):
Is it the all right?
Well, welcome back.
As I said, I have two amazingguests with us.
We got Kales and Tess.
They are co-founders of Spermand host the Four Nerds Podcast.
And their mission is todesensitize, stigmatize sex
through engaging conversationand creative projects.

(04:12):
Well, welcome, welcome, welcome,Kales and Tess.
Hey, hey, beautiful lady.

SPEAKER_07 (04:16):
Hi, thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_06 (04:18):
Yeah, I am excited for this conversation,
especially when we're talkingabout porn, because you know
that's a little bit part of mybackground, right?

SPEAKER_08 (04:27):
Such a fun topic.

SPEAKER_06 (04:29):
So let's get into today's conversation.
So I'm ready.
I am so ready.
Y'all ready?
We're ready.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right, so so let's start.
The big question is why does sexeducation often fall short?

(04:49):
I mean, we live in a world wheresex is everywhere, yet many
people still struggle to have anopen, healthy discussion about
it.
Kells and Tess, what's your takeon this?

SPEAKER_10 (05:00):
I it's funny when you said that.
I got this visual of like veryuncoordinated people playing
three flies up and like the balland sex education, and just a
bunch of people like, do youhave it?

SPEAKER_09 (05:11):
Do you have it?
I don't have it.
Someone else deal with it.

SPEAKER_10 (05:14):
And I really get another.
That's kind of the state of sexeducation, like beyond STIs or
safety, and even that's a littledicey, but like in terms of
really learning how to pleasesomeone, how to be generous, how
to receive feedback, like how toactually have sex.
No one really wants to touch itbecause it feels pretty dicey.

(05:34):
So it's really a crapshoot oflike the partners that you
encounter and like how close youare with your friends, uh, and
the porn that you watch is kindof what we find.
It tends to just be thissmorgasbord of like trial and
error.

SPEAKER_02 (05:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_10 (05:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (05:52):
I think that like when it comes to school-based
sex ed, you know, for so longit's been stuck in this focus
on, you know, reproduction andnot getting pregnant.
And there's just sort of wholesides of it that get ignored
around the communication and theboundaries and the consent.
And you know, that kind ofmimics, I think, just generally

(06:12):
our culture's comfort with thoseaspects of sexual education.
So it's like, if we're nottalking about that as adults,
we're probably not equipped totalk to our kids or our students
about that either, you know.
So you kind of see like the uminadequacies of sex ed in like a
formal school setting, just kindof based on how fumbly all the

(06:36):
adults kind of are or just intheir personal lives about it.

SPEAKER_06 (06:39):
Yeah.
You know, as you speak, Iremember, and I I've shared this
with our audience before.
I remember back in the day, I'ma little bit older than you all
are.
We used to have what we call um,it was like a nice, we used to
do a field trip that they forour health class, and we had to
be, I think it was fourth,fifth, and sixth grade, or was
it six, seven?
No, it was sixth, seventh, andeighth grade, where we were able

(07:00):
to go to this um, I guess it'slike a sex museum where they
teach us on sex and stuff likethat.
So they put us all in differentrooms.
They put the girls in one roomand the boys in another room,
and they tell us the birds andthe bees and how, you know, all
of those things.
But I remember even for myself,my mother had a very hard time
speaking to me about sexeducation.
It was just like, don't do it,you're gonna do something.

(07:22):
That's it, you know.
Period, to where my father wasmore open to talk to me about it
because he wanted to make surethat um I knew that okay, you
have to be responsible for whatyou do and what you allow for
anybody around your body.
And I think that's what'smissing, even in when we talk

(07:44):
about sex is the communicationand the respect of the word sex
and also the importance of whatsex really means for us, and
that is not so taboo and make itso negative.

SPEAKER_10 (07:56):
Yes.

SPEAKER_07 (07:57):
Yes, there's so much focus on just the like the
physical act, you know, and likeand and such a disconnect from
what part what and what space ittakes up in our lives on like a
much bigger, more profound way.
Right.

SPEAKER_10 (08:15):
Well, yeah, I think like we started Squirm four
years ago, and in that time I'veso many more people just follow
information about their sexlives and like what they think
of it and their background andtheir experience with sex
education.
And I think even beforecommunicating like what sex
means to you and like how youwant to have it with somebody, I

(08:36):
think there's such a big dividebetween what backgrounds we're
all coming from when it comes tosexuality.
Like I have a good friend whogrew up in like pretty much a
cult, like kind of anapocalyptic, you know, doomsday
cult, and they were reallyfear-mongering about sex and
like even masturbation.
And so it's like somebody comingfrom that background versus a

(08:56):
background that their parentswere really open, or some other
really religious, like we allhave start with such a different
vantage point about what sexeven is to begin with, and like
what it means.
That I don't know, I thoughtlearning how to even bring that
up is really important.

SPEAKER_06 (09:14):
Yeah, you know.
So let me ask you something.
Um, when when I read yourprofiles, when I read
everything, and it was like pornnerds, and it's when when you
when you look at the word pornand nerd, and you see it, just
say we don't have no pictures ofyou at all.
We will think you were two menor men.
How do we get how did we gethere, ladies?

SPEAKER_08 (09:37):
We love surprising people.

SPEAKER_07 (09:39):
I mean, that's just that's one of the best parts of
life, is like surprise, surpriseporn nerd.
Didn't think that.
I mean, I think you know, welike she said, we started squirm
four years ago, and it startedas just this general, like
helping people have more openconversations about sex, talking
openly, destigmatizing this bigpart of our lives.
And we quickly found out thatyou just like can't talk about

(10:01):
sex without talking about pornwhen you're talking about
people's personal sex lives andhow porn plays a really big role
in a lot of our lives, whetherthat's openly or kind of
secretly.
Um, and so we were like, let'sjust get into that.
Like there's definitely a lot ofinformation here, you know, like
there's numbers, there's data,there's a lot to learn about the

(10:25):
state of people's porn lives,you know, whether you're in the
industry or a consumer of porn.
And we're like, yeah, it's it'sit's like a pretty nerdy
approach to this very uh fun,sexy, spicy topic.
But you know, it kind of likehelps with helps kind of flesh
out that whole side of ofsquirm.

SPEAKER_10 (10:43):
Well, and I have to say, like, Tess is the original
porn nerd because she literallywrote a thesis on porn, and I
have like an honorary porn nerddegree.

SPEAKER_08 (10:54):
Like, I'm now I'm going to her with the porn nerd
crown.

SPEAKER_10 (10:57):
From just hours and hours of watching it and going
through the porn hub stats, I'venow I'm like a junior porn nerd.

SPEAKER_07 (11:04):
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, junior, yeah.
I'm senior porn nerd, I willaccept.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (11:12):
You know, it's it's so funny.
When I went got into theindustry, when I got into the
industry, I did my research aswell.
I didn't write a thesis on thepaper, but I did my research
myself.
It took me a good six months toreally do the research to find
out everything.
And this was before even Pornhubcame along.
So I was literally on thecomputer, you know, doing the
stats, what you know, to try tofigure out how to market myself,

(11:35):
the where to put it on on thebusiness aspect of it.
Because my thought for me wasthat all right, I'm gonna go in
here.
Honestly, it came in as a moneygrab.
I didn't I didn't know that onceI got into the industry, that I
would truly learn a lot ofthings about myself, positive
things about myself, sexuallyand spiritually, um, that I

(11:57):
think people miss when we dotalk about sex, when we do for
me, and when we do talk aboutporn, um, there is there is uh
always a negative and positiveto anything that we do in life
for you to be so even you testthat wrote the thesis, what made

(12:19):
you write that thesis on porn?
She's just a pervert.

SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
I'm just a pervert.

SPEAKER_07 (12:24):
Yeah, we love that word pervert.
It is like a term of endearment.
Um, I mean, I knew I wanted towork in the sexuality field, and
I at kind of at the same timethat I was looking at schools,
thinking about what I wanted todo, I was like, I want to start
with just some research and likefigure out kind of like where in

(12:45):
this world I fit in.
And at that same time, I wasjust learning a lot about the
porn industry in a person, likejust from personal exposure and
like finding a lot of porn thatI didn't even know existed.
And I was just like, oh, there'sa lot here, and it's not the
same story that I've been toldgrowing up about porn, you know,
where I kind of was like, maybethis isn't for me, or like

(13:08):
what's going on in thatindustry.
I realized like, oh, there's somuch more to this than what uh I
thought.
And so I got into school and waschoosing my area of study, and I
was thinking a lot about outsideof school, when you graduate
high school and you're out inthe world and you're dating and
you're having sex, like, wheredo you learn about what sex can

(13:32):
be or what sex is?
Like, where do you learn aboutthese things to try?
Or, you know, just beyond, youknow, those like few classes
maybe you had in middle school.
And through that research,you're like porn kept coming up.
A lot of people are learningabout sex from porn.
It's kind of this de facto sexed in our like adult life.

(13:54):
So it was this sort ofmeandering process of like,
where do I fit in in thissexuality field?
I'm like really pumped about alot of the porn that I'm seeing
out there.
I'm also learning that a lot ofpeople are watching porn to
learn about sex, like there'ssome overlaps here.
There's like intersectionsbetween this sort of adult sex
ed and all the porn that's beinglike pumped out into the world.

(14:18):
Um, so I wrote a thesis withthat sort of intersection of
adult sex ed and porn in mind.

SPEAKER_06 (14:24):
So so what did you get on it?
Like, you know, when theprofessor seen it, what was her?

SPEAKER_08 (14:36):
They're like, so you just want to watch porn in the
library, is that what this isall about?
I was like, yeah, no, I wouldnot do that.
Come on.

SPEAKER_07 (14:48):
Um no, fortunately, I was in Amsterdam, so they're
pretty open to that topic.
And um, it was a a sociology ofsexuality masters, so they
weren't like super surprised.
Okay.
Um, I got a lot of support, andI was working with people in the
porn industry while I was inAmsterdam.
So I was kind of like doing thiscool internship and meeting a

(15:11):
lot of people that way that werenot connected to school, and
just my mind was likeconsistently being blown open.
So it was, it was yeah, a lot ofsupport from the school and um
just overall like such aneye-opening experience.

SPEAKER_06 (15:26):
Nice, beautiful.
And I think Amsterdam is liketheir sex scene, I mean, their
porn scene is a little differentfrom our American porn scene.

SPEAKER_07 (15:34):
Yeah, yeah, very, very different.
And just, you know, I wasworking with this um company
called Blue Artichoke Films,which is a a smaller, like queer
woman-run, um ethical indieerotic film company.
I'm trying to remember the wordsthat they use to describe their

(15:55):
platform, but you know, it waslike these kind of like longer
form erotic films, and umsomething notable at the time
was the the National Society ofDutch Sexologists, which was
like classically a little bitmore of a traditional, um not
super pro-porn group of people.

(16:15):
They had like awarded thiscompany uh the sexology prize or
award of the year for likecontributing to like a healthy
discourse on sexuality.
And it was like, yay, porn.
So I don't know, it was like ait was a wild time.

SPEAKER_06 (16:31):
You know, Delcom, did you have any questions?

SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
You know, something I did have a question.
Um first of all, what you justsaid about being over in
Amsterdam.
I guess my question is uh herein America, like now we said
earlier, you know, sex is like ataboo.
But over there is it much more,you know, a freer topic.
You know, people can talk aboutit and discuss it.
Like America, everybody havingsex, but don't nobody want to

(16:56):
talk about it.
Yeah.
So there we is like more open.

SPEAKER_07 (17:00):
I think in some ways, yes.
Um, I don't think uh I meanthere's a few ways that I want
to answer this.
In some ways, yes.
I don't think Amsterdam or theNetherlands has the same
religious purity baseline thatwe have, and I think that really
informs how we talk about sex inthe United States.
That doesn't apply as much inthe Netherlands.

(17:22):
Also, I was in Amps, I was inschool in Amsterdam, which is
like circle inside of smallcircle, and so there's a lot of
the rest of the city and therest of the country that is like
kind of more traditional and alittle less comfortable talking
about these things.
But with the red light districtand like a lot of sex worker
advocacy groups and like pornbeing made, it definitely felt

(17:46):
like I wasn't gonna surprisethat many people by being like,
I'm studying porn.
They're like, Cool, so is thatperson over there?
Like, you know, it definitelyfeels like a more open, open
topic of conversation in a lotof ways.

SPEAKER_01 (18:00):
Right.
That's real, that's real, youknow.
And for our listeners out there,you know, we want to know what's
your experience of with learningabout sex, you know.
Me, dog pound, I learned from mybig brother.
So, you know, but we want toknow are are you guys on the on
our BGZ group?
Are you able to have openconversation or do you have to
figure things out on your on theown?

(18:21):
So hit us up at uh Bridging theGap Bridging the Gap Live on
social media and share yourthoughts with us.

SPEAKER_06 (18:27):
Yeah, don't forget to put the hashtag in front of
it because we we trying to comeviral.
We we we we come in viral,that's what we're doing.
Viral, viral, viral.
You know, now for Kells, Tesswas the you know, she was the
porn, you know, specialty foryou.
You said you like honorary.
So what was it that you did toit like really?

(18:48):
And then I got a question forthe both of y'all.
What is your favorite niche?
Like, what was that first wasthat first scene, a first movie
that you watched that you said,ah, I'm hooked.
Yeah, good question.

SPEAKER_09 (19:01):
Great questions.

SPEAKER_10 (19:02):
Um also so my background is all in production.
I did film and theater stufflike all through my 20s, and
Tess and I have been long, longfriends.
So when we started to want tolike do a pandemic project, we
were just going crazy.
And it was like, let's combinethese skill sets to try to make
resources for people and a brandthat's really like fun and

(19:23):
entertaining and is able toreach people in this time where
they're feeling really isolated.
So that's been the most of theway that I've like brought my
skill set into it.
And then on a personal level, mymom, when I was like 12, got and
she became a sex worker.
So from that point on, I justbecame like very fascinated with

(19:44):
the stigma surrounding sexualityand sex work and erotic media.
She's like an eroticphotographer that you know did a
book and the whole thing.
So uh yeah, I think it's justbeen something I've been like
very fascinated with for a longtime and more from like a story
perspective rather than anacademic perspective.
But through many hours, I haveearned my badge.

(20:10):
Um as far as like porn niche, Iokay, so we often I think we say
it in the pod, like maybe it'son the cutting room floor
though, that you know, peoplelike send YouTube
recommendations, but don't sendlike porn recommendations very
often.
But I found my favorite porncategory through a friend
sending it to me unsolicited andit with platonic brand and it's

(20:32):
massage porn.
I like love massage porn, it'sso relaxing and super hot, and
that's my favorite.
Okay.

SPEAKER_07 (20:42):
Um, I kind of one of the like first ones that I saw
that I really loved was umpublic sex in a sculpture
garden.
And I was just like, everythingabout that is so hot.
Like she was blindfolded andbeing like led by around all
this art, and there were likepeople walking in the
backgrounds and like admiringthe sculptures, and then they
found this one that had like alittle kind of like um arch

(21:06):
thing that they could hide inand like you know have sex in.
And I was just like, whatever isgoing on here, like I want to
see more of that.
So that was a fun one for me.

SPEAKER_06 (21:14):
Oh, yeah, that sounds sexy.
That sounds like in the massageone.
I know that's sexy because I'vedone several different scenes
like that.
So I already know, I alreadyknow.
You know, for you, Kales.
Now you said your your motherwas kind of worked in the sex
work, and it's this is the thingbecause I have children.
Well, they're adults now.
Um, but we never um really hadheard the voice from someone who

(21:38):
has been a child um with aparent that worked in that
industry.
You know, usually they get likea bad um a bad, you know, kind
of notion on what that lookslike.
For you know, they don't realizethat, you know, for myself, I
live a regular life, you know,like we're not fucking at home

(21:59):
with cameras.
For you, what did that look likefor you, you know, coming from a
child of a sex worker?

SPEAKER_10 (22:05):
Yeah, I mean, I I've said often, like, I feel like I
have obviously have issues withmy mom, it's any relationship,
but none of them have come fromwhat she does for a living, you
know.
I think it's just normal to havekind of storied relationships
with your parents.
And in our case, like I shealways was like, you know, she's

(22:27):
it was a very gradual likeascent into it.
Um, and it started when I waslike 12 and I think reached its
kind of like full potentialwhere it stayed mostly at when I
was like 15 or 16.
So it was like I kind ofacclimated to it as I got older
and understood more about it andbecame more independent.
And I think I think the biggestlearning from it was like

(22:52):
especially in my early 20s andespecially like dating, being
out on a date and kind of likedoing the chat of like, what do
you what about your family?
What do your parents do?
All that kind of stuff, where Iwould like feel this really
preemptive kind of defensivenessabout it to be like, well, no,
like she's not, it's not likeout of duress, it's not because
she had no other options, likeshe had a corporate job.

(23:12):
Like, I would like feel like Iwould have to kind of justify
why she landed in this line ofwork.
And like, but reflexive, likenot necessarily from what the
other person was giving me.
And so I think that really likeinvestigating and getting
curious about that stigma andthe source of it has been super
formative to my own personalviews on sex work and in turn

(23:35):
squirm now too.
But yeah, I mean it's like Ithink you know, it's a normal
relationship.
Like we have our ups and we haveour downs, and she's doing her
work, and like more power toher.
If she likes it and is happy,like I think great, you know.

SPEAKER_06 (23:50):
You know, thank you for sharing that.
You know why I say that isbecause a lot of times um when
we are parents and we havechildren, um, we tend to we want
to make sure that they aretogether all mentally,
physically, emotionally.
Um, having that kind I rememberhaving that conversation with my

(24:10):
with my girls um at the age of,I believe all of them was like
13 when I told them.
Each one of them, except forthis last one at 12.
I told them at 13 what it wasthat I did.
And I'd explained to themexactly what it is and why I am
doing it.
Um, and I just left it likethat.
And if they had any questionsor, you know, to come and ask

(24:31):
me, it's nothing that they everseen for themselves, at least to
my to my knowledge.
But then that I got them used tounderstanding what I did for a
living.
This is a part of my job, thisis a part of my career, this is
what I do.
And they've been able to watchme gradually grow from now I'm
retired, going into somethingelse, still using with sex as a

(24:54):
positive moving forward, andalso but teaching them that way.
So I love the way that I lovethe way that you two right here,
you Kells and Tess, that you youcome together and you're
actually giving a differentperspective for it, for the
knowledge of it, coming from achild of a sex worker, you know,
and as someone who is actuallyinto it as a consumer, um,

(25:18):
researching as a you know, andit gives a a more round um
roundabout way of understandingof it.
And I appreciate that, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (25:28):
Thanks.
Yeah, I think it's important forus to not position ourselves as
like this is the squirm stanceon porn, or we are like experts
on porn.
It's like we each have differentapproaches to this topic and
like different backgrounds, andthe main goal of all of it is to
like help people have whateversorts of relationships with it

(25:49):
or conversations with their kidsor their partners, and like and
and hopefully like our diversebackgrounds and kind of our our
my act more academic approachand Kelsey's like personal
approach and then the creativeside can just like offer
permission for people to come atthis from like whatever position
they're in, you know, on theirown.

SPEAKER_06 (26:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Now for you, now let's let's goto the podcast now.
Have there be any standoutmoments on the podcast or any
episode that really resonatedwith your audience?

SPEAKER_10 (26:23):
Yes, uh, yes, hard to choose which.

SPEAKER_07 (26:28):
The one that do you have?
Uh well, I have one in mind, butI think so.
In the very last episode,because it's a mini-series, uh,
so six episodes and kind of likea narrative arc from start to
finish.
It's not an always-on.
So episode six, which is thelast one of season one, um, we
talk about this idea of pornliteracy.

(26:49):
So just helping to bettercontextualize porn as another
form of media in our lives, um,as a way to destigmatize it.
And I've heard from multiplepeople when they listen to that
episode, there's this we pullsome audio from a class of
middle school, I think eighthgraders in Boston who took this

(27:13):
porn literacy class.
And it's like an after-schoolclass.
They don't watch any porn in it,even though they all thought
they were going to, and that'swhy they signed up for the
class.
Oh my god.
They're like, oh, we don't getto watch porn.
Um, of course, there's no pornshown, but they talk about porn
and do this like media literacyworkshop with them to like help

(27:33):
them, you know, betterunderstand what it is that
they're seeing and apply that totheir personal lives.
So we pull audio from these kidswho are in the class.
And it's just like it makes mecry when I hear it because it's
the most like earnest, direct,and like just this honest
approach of kids who are reallylike out there living this world

(27:55):
of porn that's around all thetime, you know, and they're
they're getting access to it,and they're trying to understand
like what that means for theirown sex lives as young people
who may have never had sexbefore.
And they're like in real timetrying to understand what all
this is, and they share that inthis audio.
And I've had people tell me,like, hearing them gave me

(28:19):
permission, the permission andlike strength I needed to talk
to my own kids who are the sameage about porn that maybe
they're gonna see soon if theyhaven't already, to talk about
sex, and like that's just such agratifying thing for me to hear
that you know, more of theseconversations are happening
because of this episode that wecreated, and that hopefully,

(28:43):
just like you talking to yourkids about the work that you do,
like hopefully more and more ofthose conversations are just
helping to break down these sortof dangerous myths about the
industry and like equip peopleto feel more comfortable going
into whatever relationshipsthey're going into with it.

SPEAKER_06 (29:01):
Right, right, right, right.
All right, so let's play alittle game.
Okay, it's gonna it's calledmyth or fact.
All right, so I'll throw out astatement and then you let me
know if it's true or totally amisconception, all right?
Okay, all right, y'all ready?

(29:22):
Ready, y'all ready?
Ready?
Okay, ready, ready, ready,ready, all right.
So here we go.
All right, porn.
Is it a bad influence onrelationships?

SPEAKER_07 (29:37):
I would say myth if that's the end of story.
Agreed.

SPEAKER_06 (29:42):
Okay, what'd you say?
Dog on my back.

SPEAKER_01 (29:45):
I say uh say it's a myth.

SPEAKER_06 (29:49):
It's gonna be very helpful, very, very helpful.
All right, the next one is sexwork.
Is it not real work?
Myth, myth.
Myth, myth.
All right, the third one,everyone who watches porn wants
to replicate it in real life.

SPEAKER_10 (30:07):
Okay, we should get like a myth.

SPEAKER_06 (30:16):
He over here looking the little sad eye.
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
I think that last question should be broken up to
men and women.
Because I think a lot of men dowant to replicate what they see
important in real life, youknow.
And that, you know, I meanthat's your answer.

SPEAKER_06 (30:38):
This next step too, put your chest white out.

SPEAKER_07 (30:42):
That's a really important point, though.
It's a really good point.
But the question was everyone.
So I think it's gotta be myth ifwe're talking about it, if you
want to say it that way, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (31:01):
All right, so absolutely look, look, I love
that you two are using yourhumor in your research just to
break down these misconceptions.
All right, so why do you thinkthat humor is such an effective
tool in a conversation aboutsex?

SPEAKER_10 (31:18):
I just I think it's like the ultimate release valve,
you know, and actually in thepodcast, somebody talks about
this too.
It's this woman, uh, ShineLouise Houston, who does the um
like San Francisco porn filmfestival, and she talks about
when you're in the festival andeveryone's quiet and it's hot
and it's tense, but then there'sa funny moment, and it's just

(31:39):
this like collective exhalewhere everyone gets to laugh and
just like how palpable thatfeeling is when you're with
other people to be able toconnect over, like we're all
finding pleasure and joy withinthis moment.
And I think the core of that,like we are experiencing
pleasure and joy and likedopamine together, is also very

(31:59):
closely mirrored to what happensin sex, right?
Like you're discovering joy andconnection.
And so I I think just it kind ofit's like a really nice entry
point to just feel more relaxedinto the conversation and disarm
people to be more receptive tolearning because it can feel
really squirmy and like tense tofeel like you need to learn

(32:21):
about something that you oftenfeel like you should just know.
Like people often feel like theyshould just know how to have
sex, how to communicate.
It should just work.
And so it can feel nice to justlike be in it together.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (32:34):
You know, I love the word squirm.
I love how you guys got squirm.
So what's the next squirm?
I hear you got somethingexciting coming up for 2025.
What's happening?

SPEAKER_07 (32:45):
Well, we are really growing our events this year.
Um, so in addition to thepodcast that we put out in the
fall, we do uh events a lot inPortland where we're based, but
also San Francisco and Seattle.
We've been expanding.
And they're just like the oneswe've been working on now are

(33:05):
these squirmy socials.
So it's kind of like asemi-structured way to get
people together and haveconversations about sex and and
um kind of like speed dating,but it's not one-on-one.
And the goal is not necessarilyto pair off, it's just to like
bond over this fun, spicy,sometimes challenging
conversation.
So we're growing that series andlike expanding to more cities,

(33:28):
which is very exciting.
Just want to get people in theroom together and feeling
squirmy with each other andwhatever way that means to them.
And then um we have thisconversation deck called Get
Squirmy, which is a lot ofquestions for about sex and
intimacy.
And so we're also growing thereach of that and like maybe
expanding um that deck into uh acouple fun things, which I won't

(33:52):
get too deep into.
And then next year, hopefully,um some more podcasting.
So either uh uh another pournerds or something kind of fresh
and new.

SPEAKER_06 (34:04):
Okay, beautiful.
I love that.
I I love the whole thing withdoing events and stuff like
that.
I'm I'm right with y'all on thatone.
Um I'm too right with you all onthat one.
All right, so where can ourlisteners sign up?
Is it anywhere that they cansign up at um to know, you know,
where to go or when it comes up?

SPEAKER_10 (34:24):
Yes.
So our website is getsquirmy.com.
We have a newsletter there thatyou can sign up for.
So you'll get, we don't likespam, we're very, yeah, it's
like light touch updates.
Our Instagram is at squirm, andthat always has our event
information.
And we just, it's like suchsocial currencies.
If you're looking for any way tosupport, it's nice to have a

(34:44):
follow on Instagram and we havefun stuff on there.
Uh, those are the two main waysto engage with Squirm.
And Port and Arts of Podcast,obviously.
You can follow, subscribe onanywhere that you listen to
podcasts.

SPEAKER_06 (34:54):
Beautiful, beautiful.
All right, so we got somequestions for you that we did uh
pre before the show.

So here's one of the questions: how can couples start having (35:01):
undefined
better conversations about theirsexual needs and boundaries?

SPEAKER_07 (35:08):
Such a good question.
I mean, I think I think liketiming is a really big part of
these conversations and whetherthey feel productive and uh safe
or not.
And I think a lot of the timethis topic can be so stressful

(35:29):
in a relationship because wetalk to a lot of people who go
years without ever talking likedirectly about their sex life.
And so it kind of builds up asthis like, oh god, like we gotta
talk about it, gotta talk aboutit maybe from both people, but
not actually like bridging that,bridging that gap um with each

(35:50):
other.
So I think like setting asidetime where you're both, you're
not rushing off anywhere, youhave blood sugar, you ate
something, maybe you're on awalk and you're not staring each
other in the face, but it's likefeels like a good time for a
maybe hard convo.
And then I think there'ssomething super disarming about

(36:11):
just name Kelsey taught me thislike naming the fact that you
don't really know what to say,but that you feel like something
needs to be said.
Like I feel like I want to talkabout this, and I'm not really
sure the right words, and Ireally care about you, and I
really love you, and I like wantto talk about this part of our
life.
I feel kind of squirmy, I'm notreally sure what to say, but

(36:34):
it's important to me.
And it's like you're not comingin with this, here we are, this
is the thing.
You're just like, I'm just aperson struggling a little bit
with this part of my life.
Let's get into it.
And I think that's timing andthen like naming the discomfort
can be um two ways to at leastlike broach the topic if it
feels intimidating to broach.

SPEAKER_10 (36:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it's also like notreserving conversations about
desires or your sex life forwhen there's like a problem to
solve, you know.
I think that because there's somuch squeamishness around it,
often people like hold it in foras long as they can until they
like have it been coming forthree months or whatever and

(37:17):
like have to say something, youknow?
And so obviously there's such awide variety of like why someone
would want to talk about sex,but I think just like knowing
that that these kind ofconversations are like
necessary, yes, but also reallyhot and really informative, and
like setting a precedent asearly as you can or as soon as

(37:38):
you feel it, that like this isan open, this is an open
conversation ongoing between thetwo of us for as long as we
choose to spend together.
Like, I want to make sure you'reenjoying this and get your
desires met, and like viceversa.
So just kind of set in the tonethat it's like welcomed
throughout the course of therelationship.

SPEAKER_06 (37:57):
Right.
So I have a very debatablequestion for you because some
people will have um, you know,to for you when going out on
dates, when going out a dating,when should sex be brought up in
a conversation?
The first date, second date,third date.

SPEAKER_10 (38:14):
I mean, for I think we're such a tilted sample size
because like it comes up with anhour for us because it's like,
what do you do?
Like, well, foreigners broughtthat.
So for me, it comes up reallyearly.
The topic of sexuality comes upreally early consistently.
Um but I guess I guess what Iwould say is I don't think it

(38:37):
should be, I don't think there'slike a too soon to discuss it.
I don't think it like needs tocome up on any certain number of
dates.
I think probably before you havesex, is I would personally
prefer to talk about it before Ihave it.
But um I don't feel like there'slike a too soon or like a
prescription.
I think it just it's that's tome, that's part of like

(38:59):
integrating the topic ofsexuality in our lives in a way
where it doesn't feel like it'sthis like I don't know, like
white, like white gold glovelike topic that you have to like
save and deshelf at a specifictime, you know.
It can it's a big part of all ofour lives.

SPEAKER_06 (39:14):
Right.
You know, I guess you know thatthat's one thing that I remember
having um this guy, he had anamazing book.
Um, we had him back on ourchocolate radio days on on that
show.
And I remember asking him aboutthe um sleeping on the first
date question.
You know, um, how do you feelabout a woman?

(39:37):
We're gonna say woman becausewith men, you know, they a hey,
you got it.
But for a woman sleeping on umsleeping with someone on their
first date, how do you thinkthat has grown, or do you think
we're still in that time whereit's still a stigma?

SPEAKER_07 (39:55):
That's a good question.
I think it really depends on whoyou're talking to, because I
think there's a lot of peoplewho for whom sex is uh a very
sort of like normalized,comfortable part of their lives,
and having sex with someone on afirst date is like really fun
and not this sort of um youdon't have to like build up to

(40:19):
it in terms of it's like whatwhat it means in a relationship
necessarily.
And then I think there's still alot of people and a lot of
places where um sex yeah takesup a different space in that
early dating.
And I think if you're askinglike me personally, or kind of
like the squirmaverse that wetend to run in, um that I think

(40:45):
there's absolutely nothing wrongwith sleeping with someone on
the first date if you're havinga good time, you know.
But I think like just likeKelsey was saying before, we all
come to sex with these differentbackgrounds with religion, with
like purity culture, with youknow, fear-mongering from a
doomsday cult, if that was whereyou grew up.
It's like that's probably gonnainform how comfortable you feel

(41:07):
going into these early datingsituations.
And if you think it's okay tohave sex with someone on the
first date, or if you thinkthere's something shameful about
that.

SPEAKER_10 (41:17):
And I'll say though too, I don't think it's it's
it's very similar to porn for mein that, like, you know, porn
gets this bad rap of like pornbad, like reflexive, just like
uh no, you know, but we knowlike when you get more
comfortable, uh that's not true.
I mean, I think we probably allagree on that here.
And like I feel per from a verylike personal personal

(41:38):
standpoint with sleeping withsomeone on the first date, have
done it plenty of times, don'tthink there's anything shameful
about it.
I am single now, and like Idon't really do that anymore
just from like what I want andwhat I'm trying to like.
I know how it affects my my likeattachment to somebody and like
can skew or kind of cloud myvision of if I really even like
this person.

(41:59):
So, like, I think there can be alot of like you can arrive at
your no in a lot of ways, andyou can arrive at your yes in a
lot of ways.
I think the most important thingis like knowing why you're
there, like why you fall onwhatever side of the fence that
you fall on.
And if it's because it's thisreflexive, like slut shaming
thing, I would encourage peopleto dig deeper past that.

(42:21):
But there's plenty of validreasons to not do it if you
don't want to.

SPEAKER_07 (42:24):
I think that's something that we came to in the
porn nerd show too, is like alot of the show is is wrestling
with the idea this idea that alot of people are watching a lot
of porn and feeling a lot ofguilt about it.
And like, why is that, you know?
And and by the end of the show,we're not trying to prescribe a
dose of porn to anybody whereit's like, here's a healthy

(42:46):
dose, here's an unhealthy dose,because that's just so
subjective.
It'll be really fun though.

SPEAKER_08 (42:50):
It just needs like a little like RX pad.
Yeah.
One massage, yeah, for a week.
Yeah, you get one new roommassage and one per day, uh,
morning and night, 8 a.m., 8p.m.

SPEAKER_07 (43:04):
Uh but it's like, yeah, you can arrive at your
yes, I want to watch porn everyday because it feels good for
me, or no, I don't want to watchporn anymore because of XYZ, but
understanding why you might feelcompelled to like feel bad about
the porn you're watching, or notwant to watch it, or feel like
you need to cut it off coldturkey, like just better

(43:26):
understanding what is drivingyou internally versus what is
like some external story thatyou're being told about your
behavior.

SPEAKER_06 (43:33):
Right.
You know, thank you for thoseanswers, those both great, great
answers.
Um, do you have any uhquestions, Dr.
Robin?

SPEAKER_01 (43:40):
You know, I do.
I have one question.
I guess this is for all thefemales out here.
But I mean, uh watching a lot ofporn, we do see porn, and and
when we see it, you know, it'slike the women are the
aggressive.
I mean, I've seen scene whereGod just sit on the couch and a
woman come in and she makes thefirst move.
And going back to the last thingyou you asked about, you know,

(44:03):
one night stands, I think womennowadays they may make the first
move because they want to seeexactly you know what's I mean
what they're getting.
Like men used to think, oh, I'mtrying to have it on the first
date, but some women they wanton the first date to see, let me
see how this guy's sex is.
I mean, when I grew up, I was ayounger guy and I dated some

(44:24):
older women, and it was just forthe sex, you know.
They wanted to see what you knowwhat they'll get out of me
sexual-wise.
So I think in, you know, do youfemales think that are you or
will you make a first move on ona on a male just to see what you
can get out of the sexexperience?

SPEAKER_09 (44:43):
It's like this is gonna be bad, let's just learn
faster.

SPEAKER_10 (44:46):
Yeah, uh, I don't know.
I I don't know, I've neverthought about it that way.
I feel like when I make a moveand when I have sex on the first
date, it's just because I'm likeinto it and horny, and there's a
vibe, and we made out on thestreet, and it's like, okay,
let's just do hand stuff, andthen you know, here we are.

(45:09):
I don't know, just in my mind,not cognitively a test, but I do
give you a lot of information,that's for sure.

SPEAKER_07 (45:20):
I think the reverse of that is I probably wouldn't
hold out for too long if becauseI do want to eventually know if
there's chemistry or not, right?
So it's like you're gonna you'regonna kind of want to know
before you get too invested inthis person's personality.

SPEAKER_10 (45:38):
I did have that once.
I went on like five or six dateson with this guy, really liked
him, super fun.
And like I I it's you unusualfor me not to have sex for that
long, and then it was reallybad.
Like just the chemistry was notthere, and it was like a month
and a half into knowing him, andI was like, wow, like I wish I
just kind of knocked that out.

SPEAKER_06 (45:58):
Like, you know, anticipated, like you thought
this this shit gonna be reallygood, and then it was just like
a total let down.

SPEAKER_09 (46:04):
It was just like it was like a balloon, just like
snot him, and nothing wrong withhim, it's just the chemistry
thing.
It was just like a we both feltthat we were like midway
through.

SPEAKER_07 (46:13):
I think we were both at this level, like what's so
much buildup too for that.
I think that's that's tough.

SPEAKER_06 (46:19):
Yeah, I think that's what that is.
That was that was a goodquestion, Doc Mike Bike.
That was a good one.
Well, what do you think?
Okay, you got one more.

SPEAKER_01 (46:26):
I got one, you know.
So, what what is one thing youwish more people could
understand about the adultindustry all together?

SPEAKER_07 (46:35):
Yeah, it's good.
Um, I feel like the short answerfor me would be that it's just
like any other industry.
Like it's like people who areworking hard who come at it from
a lot of different interests anddesires and want to get
different things out of it.
And there's like really amazingcreative, um, you know, super

(46:56):
positive experiences.
And then just like any otherindustry, there's like bad stuff
that happens.
Like it's it's no different thanworking in finance or working in
politics or working in, youknow, real estate.
There's like unethical stuffthat happens in every industry.
It's just the porn industry thatseems to be front and center in
a disproportionate way.

(47:18):
So I just want more people tounderstand that it's like real
people working hard, doing whatthey love a lot of the time.
And then just like any other anyother industry, there's there's
the shitty stuff.

SPEAKER_06 (47:30):
Yeah, yeah.
You know, you know, I actually Ilove that you all um that you
truly bring light to it and totake away the stigma um of it,
uh, and just being on theoutside of it.
It's great to hear that we haveother voices besides us that's
you know, are the sex workers orthe retired sex workers, um,

(47:54):
just keeping a positive movementof it.
And I do truly appreciate itall.
Um, and I I love the insightthat you that you have right
now.
But for our listeners, I have aquestion for you.
Um, if you have any morequestions, keep them coming.
And I want y'all to tag us athashtag bridge the gat live or
on social media, and so we cankeep this conversation going,

(48:15):
um, going on.
Um, do you have any last wordsfor us, um, Kales and Tess um
before we close out?

SPEAKER_07 (48:26):
I have a question for both of you.
Um, I want to know what you whatyou think makes someone good at
sex.
I love this question.

SPEAKER_06 (48:37):
The girl, no, I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_08 (48:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (48:43):
No, I'm just kidding.
You know, um, for for me, it istruly the communication.
Um, it's the asking thequestions because I want to know
what um what turns you on, aswell as I want you to know what
turns me on.
So it's kind of to have a mutualconversation with each other and

(49:04):
really get to know each other'sbody.
Um, for me, that's one thingthat I did learn with being in
the adult industry is whatreally turns me on.
A lot of times we don't knowthat is because we've been
taught to when we do us thatself-discovery of ourselves, as
we call masturbation, we're notsupposed to do that.

(49:24):
So, like for me, um, if you'reuncomfortable, let's get
comfortable together, let's dosome things, even before we get
into the hardcore of things.
I want to touch and explore you,and you touch and explore me.
And that's what makes great sexfor me, is you are willing to go
through that journey with me init.

SPEAKER_01 (49:48):
Yeah, that's a very good answer.
And I think even before, youknow, you talk about dating, but
even for dating, I mean, I'vebeen in a few relationships
where I was friends with theperson first, and it was kind of
like a cheat sheet because whenyou're friends with someone, you
talk about everything.
You just talk about everything,and this was a person I didn't
even have to think I had achance for being in relationship

(50:08):
with, you know.
So she talked to me, I talked toher about past experiences and
things, and it got so fun thatwhen we did get together,
everything was kind of out inthe open and we kind of knew
what each other liked, you know.
So it was just like it was justlike set up even for it even got
to the thought that we wouldhave sex, we had conversations

(50:30):
about it.

SPEAKER_06 (50:30):
Yeah, you know what?
In that talk, I'm I'm tellingyou, when that when you talk
that sex talk, that sexy talkthat around you can't be sexual
that talk alone.

SPEAKER_10 (50:41):
Totally.
Oh, yeah.
It's like communication truly isthe best for a point.

SPEAKER_09 (50:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (50:49):
And I think something that connects both of
your answers is just thevulnerability that you're
experiencing with that person,whether it's through that
friendship and you're getting toknow each other in in a
different way, and you're likevulnerable because you don't
have this, oh, we're trying todate and like trying to have
sex.
You just can learn from eachother that way.
And then what you're talkingabout with the the like someone

(51:10):
being willy willing to go therewith you, that takes the
willingness to be vulnerable,and like that is such a such a
sexy quality for someone, youknow, to like really be there
with you and help you feel seenand help you feel super sexy.

SPEAKER_06 (51:24):
Yeah, you have to because it's a very enjoyable um
space to be and even connectedspiritually, honestly.
And so you want to make surethat you are truly enjoying
that, like what I said, melearning about myself more
sexually and spirituallyhappened within the industry
when I was in the industry,because I didn't go to church,

(51:47):
so I had to be connectedspiritually.
I had to pray in my car, I hadto pray on set to make sure that
I was just as grounded as Icould be.
But also sexually, it gave me anopen to be me, to really be who
I am and understand myselfcompletely.
A lot of the times we don't havethat opportunity with the

(52:09):
outside world and societybecause it's been looked um down
on with sexuality.
And I can't understand how sexcan be such a demonized world
when this is something that wegive birth to.
You know, this is the thing thatthe magic happens that you know,
uh a beautiful creation ishappening from that.
So why can't we start to educatepeople?

(52:33):
You know, not only the educatewise, but the spiritual wise,
um, the the communication-wise,to just make it to where this
can truly be a beautiful thing,yeah.

SPEAKER_10 (52:44):
Love everything you say.
So good.
Yes, we get a recording of this,and it's gonna be like my
mantra.
I have a fast how to dog dogpound, how did you get your
nickname dog pound?
Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_01 (53:10):
I mean, back back when I was younger, um I mean, I
was sexual.
I was sexual at a at a youngage, and you know,
relationships, I I've been inrelationships, but my experience
would have been to you know, getwith somebody, we have some sex,
we have some good times, and andthey do refer me some kind of
men as dogs, but I tell it likeit is.

(53:31):
That's one that's another partof my name.
I think Naomi was part of givingmy name because I just when we
hear the show, I just tell itlike it is, straight from the
dog fan.
When you're in the dog, the dogthat talk was real, and that's
that's where it came from.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (53:47):
He was the he he he kept it real.
We had uh a show back in the daywas um chocolate radio.
We had chocolate radio, and itwas him and another guy, and
they would just and you know,I'm like the one to just keep it
cute and sexy, and you know, andthey like really raw with it,
but coming from a man's point ofview, and then we added someone
new to it that know it all, likehe was booked sense of, and he

(54:11):
was also a director um in theporn industry, so he was coming
from a different aspect as well.
So when you have all three of usthere, you know, he just being
what people would say on he willsay what people want to say, but
can't say, yeah, too ashamed tosay, you know what I mean.

(54:31):
And so that was very for me, itwas very doggish on some of the
things that he says.
So I would say, bark, and yousay, you know, type of
mentality.

SPEAKER_01 (54:43):
So that's how he got to see that everybody is here
because of sex.
It wouldn't be nobody here everymonth for sex, yeah.
So you basically have to, youknow, you have to take it like
it is, and so it's there, it'sout there.
Everybody's gonna have it,everybody's trying to have it.
So let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_07 (55:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 (55:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Unfortunately, dog pound hascalmed down a little bit, so he
he's like uh uh I don't evenwant to call a uh old hound dog
now.

SPEAKER_08 (55:18):
It's quieter at the pound these days.

SPEAKER_06 (55:25):
So you know what again, ladies.
Um, thank you so much again forbeing here and just giving us
this great conversation.
Again, if you want to um shareyour website again, your
podcast, and where people canfind you at your social media,
everything, give it to them.

SPEAKER_10 (55:40):
Awesome.
Uh, get squirmy.com is ourwebsite.
Follow us on Instagram atsquirm.
And the podcast is porn nerds,it's six episodes.
It's so much fun.
You're gonna love it, guaranteeit.

SPEAKER_06 (55:51):
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
All right, so before we go, Iwant to do a quick reminder.
Um, in May, we are launching ourlove in mental health awareness
month series.
This is something very dear tome that I just cannot wait to
do.
Remember, every week in May,we'll be joined by a panel of
incredible guests to discusslove, relationship, and mental

(56:11):
wellness.
And you don't want to miss it.
Um, next month, we got a wholelineup of amazing guests coming.
Um, I just can't wait.
Dr.
Pomine, you got any last words?

SPEAKER_01 (56:25):
Uh, this was a great show.
Love talking to you ladies, anduh everybody let's just keep
having sex.

SPEAKER_06 (56:35):
All right, my beautiful people.
Thank you too.
So listen again.
Remember, if you want any love,sex, relationship advice, you
can always email us ataxenaomiomi at gmail.com.
And as always, be good to oneanother and yourself and always
keep it safe.

SPEAKER_05 (56:52):
Well, that is the wrap foranother episode of Axe Naomi
within the gap.
And I hope today's conversationhas started something beautiful
with me and gave you the toolsto elevate your love life to the
next level.
And I want you to remembertransformation doesn't happen
overnight.
It happens one conversation, onechoice, and one moment of

(57:15):
energetic time.
So you have to use the love andthe exercise that you deserve.
So don't forget to subscribe.
So I will find a way of my own.

(57:50):
So it's gone.
And remember to always die now,but it's next time on that time.

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