December 27, 2025 • 23 mins
In this episode of Bollywood to Hollywood, Kamal sits down with none other than Vince Gilligan, Allison Tatlock and Gordon Smith. In this interview, Allison, Vince Gilligan, and Gordon come together to talk about their newest project, pluribu on appletv and the creative journey behind bringing it to life.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm a genius.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It's a lot of a lot of a lot of
was that the Edison said one percent inspiration and ninety
nine percent perspiration. It's uh, I just I'm always I
try to have irons in the fire.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
So to speak.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Different I'm always I've got ideas, some of them have
been kicking around literally for twenty thirty years, and I'm still,
you know, trying to make come alive in my brain.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
But I had this idea of the beginnings of this idea.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
About ten years ago, and it was about a male
protagonist initially, and the original inkling of an idea was
very different than what Purvis became. And Purvis became what
it became, which is far more interesting than the little
seed of an idea I had originally. Purvis came what
it became as a group effort.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
You're listening to ruck Us Avenue Radio, available now on
the free iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Yes, Hi, my name is Kamala Kahan Ruckus Avenue Radio,
which is part of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Hello, go on, how you doing. Good to see you again,
long time.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Great to see you as well, Vince, and welcome Allison
and Gordon. So up the days going well?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Go on very well, very well, how's how's Ryanne doing.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
He's doing great, Yeah, he's he's doing very well, very
very excited about the show. And it's so you know,
I'm so happy for him, and thank you for having
to be part of it. It's just a fun ride
for him.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Glad. He's such such a he did a great job.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
He's such a wonderful young man and so talented and
a sweet fella. And I hope he hasn't lost his
taste for chicken tenders. We had We made him eat
like seven hundred pounds of chicken tenders in that lunch scene.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
And and ice cream in five Yeah, had to give
him a lot of ice cream.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
But yeah, absolutely, And you know what, You've got him
for his most favorite things. So I think he's very happy.
He just for that he'll be back again, you know.
Nice But yeah, it's but yeah, no, I'm joying. He's
obviously done a good jobs formal talented than I am.
But thank you for being on the show on on
ruckus and thank you for making the time. I really
(02:45):
appreciate it. And uh, this show it's called Bollywood to Hollywood,
and really I'm just gonna introduce you guys for for
a second. So three of the creative forces here behind
purpose Vince Gilligan, Emmy winning creator of Breaking Bad and
Better Call Soul, Alison Tatlock, writer and producer on Probus,
(03:08):
who also wrote episode for it was one of the
most talked about episodes, and obviously Gordon Smith, Emmy winning writer,
director and producer. So excited to jump right into it
and have the time to talk about it. So congrats
so far on all the rave reviews and the conversations,
(03:28):
the fan fan reviews and so forth. How are you
joining the ride?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
It's fair.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Thank you for having us, Kamal, it's been it's been fantastic.
It's I it's been beyond my wildest dreams.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I can't. I just can't.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I gotta keep pinching myself and then making sure I'm
not dreaming. What do you did you guys expect it
to be this well received?
Speaker 5 (03:47):
No, no, I just expected it. It seemed like, look,
it's going to be a show that it's going to
be to some people's taste. I still think this is true.
There's going to be to some people tastes, and it's
not going to be the other people's tastes, and I've
bet I've been very gratified. I've been really gratified by
seeing it land with people I wouldn't expect to. It
(04:08):
is really resonated with some younger people who you know,
they feel at this point in my advanced age, they
feel distant from me, and I'm like, oh wow, they're
really They're kind of picking up what we're putting down
in a way that I feel really good about, which
is awesome.
Speaker 6 (04:25):
It's a big swing. So that's what's exciting and scary
about any kind of risk, and this show I think
does take a risk because it's unusual, so it would
have been foolish of us to expect anything close to
this kind of response. So you try not to think
about that, just try to make the show and see
how it lands. And now we're very excited, Yes, very much.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
So, No, that's amazing. I think that also the global response,
I mean it kind of is if you think about it,
You've got like a global aspect to all, which I
really really love, and I think the audience obviously loves.
I'm just curious from perspective. I mean, we've got a
large South Asian audience. You've included that as well. Was
there any particular way that you you know, decided to
(05:11):
pick a particular nationality or culture, or is this kind
of just like, hey, you know what, this is interesting,
or these are the characters and their background. I just
built upon that. Just curious about that.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I like the I always wanted to do a show
that was this global, and I had this much of
a reach and had and had a lot of different
languages in and a lot of different cultures, and I
just you know, this was this was a real opportunity
for us to be able to do that because this
is a worldwide event that happens in the first episode
of Pluribus. The whole world changes, and then there are
(05:45):
thirteen unchanged individuals, thirteen old schoolers as.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
We call them. And I just.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
When I was writing that those first two episodes, before
I had the benefit of working with these wonderful writers
in the in the in the writer's room, I just thought,
you know, I kind of looked at a map of
the world and kind of thought, how should where should
these folks come from? And I I just sort of
picked spots, uh, from all around the globe, and and
(06:14):
uh figured there was no wrong wrong answer to that,
and and it and and worked out it really well.
We we got wonderful actors, and we continue to hire
wonderful actors that will no doubt continue in season two.
And just it's it's you know, it really is nice
to be able to create something for lack of a
(06:35):
better way to put it, for the world, intentionally for
the world, and and uh, you know, not.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Just for for one particular culture. I like being able
to do that.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Yeah, I know, that's amazing, Vinceiven, especially, you know, bringing
in so many different nationalities and languages. It is so rich.
It's it's it's hard to do that, even if you
want to tempt to put have done it in such
a cool way. All of you guys, how did you
do that? And I know you you've probably been honest
with this a million times instance, like how'd you come
up with the idea?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
You know, it's just.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Waking up in the morning and just came to you.
Or he's just a genius, so they come from space
like you.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I'm a genius.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
No, No, it's a lot of a lot of a
lot of was that the Edison said one percent inspiration
and ninety nine percent perspiration. Uh, it's Uh, I just
I'm always I try to have irons in the fire,
so to speak. Different I'm always I've got ideas, some
of them have been kicking around literally for twenty thirty years,
and I'm still, you know, trying to make come alive
(07:37):
in my brain. But I had this idea of the
beginnings of this idea about ten years ago, and it
was about a male protagonist initially, and the original inkling
of an idea was very different than what Plurbos became.
And Purbis became what it became, which is far more
interesting than the little seed of an idea I had originally.
(07:58):
Pluribus became what it became, came uh as a group effort,
a big part of how shows get created. Uh. Sometimes
people want to admit this, or sometimes people don't want
to admit it. But for me, it's I love pointing
out what a collaborative medium television is. And you know,
when you you have a little seed of an idea
(08:20):
and then you get a bunch of wonderful writers around you,
and then you hire some just outstanding actors and everybody
does their part to make the little the little seed
grow into hopefully, you know, a mighty oak Tree. That's
that's the hope.
Speaker 7 (08:34):
Anyway, already already.
Speaker 8 (08:49):
You're listening to Ruckus Avenue Radio.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
The other thing what he's talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
But it the idea, it took, it took many years
to become what it became. That's you know, it's it's
you don't usually have those eureka moments where it all
suddenly hits it once. I only had that one time,
and that was breaking Bad, And even then that was
just the beginnings of the show. It was the idea
(09:23):
of a guy who who you know, cooks crystal meth
for his family because he's dying of cancer. That that
much of the idea, that much of the character came quickly.
But nothing else I've ever done before since came together
that abruptly. Everything else just takes its sweet time. And
that's just that's just the job.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Really.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Yeah, it sounds like it marinated, but whatever it was,
it came together in a really cool way. I'd love
to kind of hear Gordon Holson how you kind of
also collaborated with taking that idea and kind of making
you know, did you sit in the wright's room and
sort of say, okay, well, let's build upon this in
a particular way. What was your How did you guys
come up with that? I know you've been working together
(10:03):
for years.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
So yeah, I mean both Alison and I were in
very early stages of discussions about about this. Vince generously
brought brought us into a little mini room to kick
the idea around when you were sort of before you
were taking it out, to just sort of see whether
you wanted it to be a limited series, an ongoing series,
(10:24):
all of that, and so we had we were privileged
to be able to sort of ask some of these
big questions about the show very early on, and you know, subsequently,
I don't know, I don't know how in terms of
what we do to help bring it about. We just
sort of respond as best we can as ourselves. It's
a weird it's a weird job because you you know,
(10:46):
all you can bring to it is your point of
view and be able to say this is what my
this is what that makes me feel, and this is
what I like about it, and there's something that's bothering me,
and can we steer it this way or this way?
And we just try and test out different options and
be able to play as much as we can with
the ideas.
Speaker 6 (11:04):
I don't know, it's pretty incredible timing because we were
coming off the final season of Better Call Saul, which
of course was a profound, you know, writer's room experience
to try to land that show together that we all
cared about so much. It was during the the you know,
in the thick of the COVID pandemic. It was in
(11:25):
the beginning of Zoom and we were all hold up
in our houses anyway, That's how we ended that show,
and it was it was very intense. And then to
be invited by Vince several of us who had already
worked together in some cases for many years but in
all cases for at least several years, to come together
and talk about something that was completely different.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
I remember joking with you.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
Guys that it was like being in a repertory theater,
like now we do Shakespeare and now we do Beckett.
And how cool to be with the same people, to
have these relationships, to be able to know that you
can collaborate and trust each other and then switch gears
in terms of the world that you're building and work
on something different. And Vince had already written two scripts,
(12:09):
so we had the benefit of his hard work, and
it was off of those two as a you know,
jumping off place, that we started to talk about the
world of the show.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
And I like that term jumping off place, because I
did have two scripts, which is always helpful, but there
was something not quite working with the we needed the
second script needed some changes, and we kind of wound
up taking it apart and putting it back together again.
And so I mean, right from the get go, it's
a you know, you're getting this wonderful help. And I
(12:41):
really like writer's rooms. I like working with you know,
you have to surround yourself with people you like and
respect and enjoy spending many, many many hours with.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
But what yeah, I don't know how coordinated through.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
But but you know, it's it's once you have that though,
it's you're You're very lucky if you have that, and
then it allows you to look really, really smart and
have people respect your work and sometimes they don't realize
just how collaborative a medium it is.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
And yeah, yeah, you get out of the credit.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
That's pretty cool. I was gonna say, you had two scripts,
Did I hear that right? And you kind of then
decided this is we're going to narrow it down to
and you know that's that's how you collaborates it on this.
But you know this is talking about shifting gears for
a second. I mean this is a departure from best
cool soul and obviously breaking bad, so that that's quite
a shift. So as far as that's concerned, you know
(13:37):
what really kind of inspired you kind of bring that
piece into it say Okay, well we're going to shift
gears you completely.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And I think just the concept of shifting gears was
appealing to me. I had I had for twenty years straight.
I had done crime stories. I had worked with these
great folks on stories about criminals, Walter White and then
Jimmy McGill who becomes a very criminal attorney saw a
(14:06):
goodman and I had a great time doing that. But
for twenty years I was writing bad guys. I was
writing folks who were pretty villainous, and we had lesser
villains who had more of a heart to them, and
we had really terrible villains on both shows.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
We had.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
A range a spectrum of villains, but we didn't have
that many good guys on those shows. We had a couple.
But before that, I'd spent seven years on the X Files,
I'd written I kind of you know, for seven years,
I was writing a couple of heroes. Agents Molder and
Scully really are heroic. They really are trying to make
(14:47):
the world a better place and save the world from
these nefarious forces. And I enjoyed the heck out of
that job for seven years. But when it was over,
I was ready for a change. I took it for
great I added the idea of writing for good guys,
and then twenty years straight almost well not quite twenty,
but a great many years writing bad guys, and then
(15:09):
I was ready for yet another change, ready for some
good guys again. I like the idea of writing a hero,
and Carol Stirka, to me, is a hero. She is
an imperfect hero, and she can be kind of a
pain in the butt, and she can be sarcastic and
snarky and kind of annoying at times, but she is
trying to do the right thing as she sees as
(15:31):
best she sees it, and that's refreshing to me. And
doing science fiction again is refreshing after so many years
of doing, as I say, crime dramas, and I like
all kinds of different genres when I'm watching movies. I
like crime stories, I like science fiction, I like westerns.
One of these days I'd love to do a Western.
But I never really sat out and say it's time
(15:54):
to do this specific genre. It's just where this one
story took me, took me back into the realm of
science fiction. But I was more excited about the idea
of writing a good guy again or a good woman,
good good people, heroic people. That was what excited me
more than the science fiction aspect.
Speaker 8 (16:20):
You're listening to Ruckus Avenue Radio Avenue available now on
the free iHeart Radio.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Yeah, I think that's pretty cool. And also to speaking
of you know, the character Carol Starker and Rade, this
such an amazing job of representing that, but also the
other characters. You know got Mnusis and you've got Diavarte.
This is an interesting there's no real villain, as you
mentioned it, it's just about change. And a lot of
conversation has been you know, we're hearing about hey, oh
(17:06):
it's it's about AI or it's about the fact that's COVID,
But you've said it's not really about that, right, It's
about you know, viighlating the fact that there's this kind
of tension between kind of individual choices right versus the collective.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I like that is accurate. I like the way you
put that. You put that very well. I hesitate to
tell people what it's about because I want people to
take from it whatever they wish to take AI COVID,
any of those things are fair game. If I'm being
scrupulously honest, I can say that this idea came to
(17:43):
me so long ago. It was prior to COVID, and
it was prior to chat GPT. So if I'm being
literal about it, if I'm being honest, you know, precise
about it, neither of those things were on my mind.
But if people take away those things or other things,
that's fine on me. I think people should interpret the
show anyway they wish.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
M hmm. I'm going to ask you a fun question, too,
is where, like, if any of those characters had a
choice to be one of those characters in different parts
of the world, the particular one that you kind of
feel more akin to than others.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
For each of you, by the way, what do you
guys think? What do you think else?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
And where are you at?
Speaker 6 (18:22):
Which of all the characters right of the of the
of the old schoolers.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
I mean, the most fun obviously is to be would
be diabat right, not a care in the world, air force,
one killer wardrobe, like just just so unaffected by this.
That's the most fun. I don't know if I actually
would be that person.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
If it were, if it.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
Were me, I feel like, you know, I would probably
be much more like Carol, maybe more like the they
mentioned an old man who's just a who fishes. It's
not like it's the guy, and yet he's just mentioned
a dialogue that that you know, maybe that's that's what
I would be.
Speaker 6 (19:15):
That's a tough question, man question. It's a good question
you usually don't shy away. But I'm not sure I
can really answer that question.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I think I would I'd want to be the Abade
because he's so chill and happy naturally, but and then
I wouldn't be able to I just I don't think
I could pull off me in the Abate. So then
I think i'd want to be Manuso's because he's very
capable on stoic, but I'm not stoic. I think I
would be most like Carol. I think that's pretty much
of a given. I'd be complain complaining all the time.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
Oh, I see you mean you mean which are we
most like? I thought you meant more like, which one
would we want to be?
Speaker 4 (19:54):
So yeah, yeah, well yeah, I mean I want to
be able to feel like I would say, you know,
you feel you'll like, But it's a tough one. I mean,
that's conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Good question.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, I've got a minute left. I want to ask
you quick fire question. Well, one of the things I
did want to mention is I think you know the
happiness piece and eventually said I read somewhere where you
basically it's the unhappiness or the drive this will get
you up in the morning. So that's kind of part
of this, right. I think that's that's an interesting concept.
(20:30):
But there's a quick fire question I have for your
high mind or mind your own business? Which one would
you pick?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
I mind or I'd pick mind your own business. That's
pretty much it for sure. I like the way you
put that. I don't I think i'd be the high mind.
They seem very happy, but I just I need my space,
I need my you know, what do you think?
Speaker 6 (20:53):
I feel like I'm a little bit more flexible, and
even the writers from itself is a version of a
hive mind. There's conflict within it, of course, I could
you know, our results come from disagreement. So when we
say hive mind, I don't mean necessarily consensus, but in
terms of like collaboration, I choose that over like, there's
(21:19):
a reason for me that I am a TV writer
and not a screenwriter. I don't do great sitting at
home by myself in my own head. I prefer to
be with these guys and everybody else figuring it out together.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
So that's a good answer. You're right, Yeah, that's a
nice answer. It's nice.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I wish there was a third version, which is a
happy medium, but the two which I wish that for
the world, I wish, you know, I want to if
it was if extending the question out, if we could
choose between rugged individualism, which we see a lot of
in the United States right now, to the nth degree,
and it's sometimes becomes problematic. You have individuals who are
(22:01):
charismatic enough that other people follow them that you see
the degree that that you know, if you take that
to the Inns degree, you see how that can go wrong.
But then on the other hand, if everybody, if no
one had individualism at all, everybody was a soulless robot.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
That'd be terrible too. Why why can't we meet somewhere in.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
The middle and have you know, have our own individuality
and and and personality, but look out for each other
a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
That would be That would be my hope and dream.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
That's a great answer to Well, we'll go to a
few seconds left. I'm going to wrap. I thank you
so much though, for this opportunity and this conversation. It
was insightful. Thank you Alison, Thank you Gordon, Thank you, Vince.
Pleasure to have you on this show and ruck us
out in your radio auto iHeart radio and see.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Soon is a lot of fun, great talking.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
The world's most listen to South Asian radio and podcast
network
I'm a genius.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It's a lot of a lot of a lot of
was that the Edison said one percent inspiration and ninety
nine percent perspiration. It's uh, I just I'm always I
try to have irons in the fire.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
So to speak.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Different I'm always I've got ideas, some of them have
been kicking around literally for twenty thirty years, and I'm still,
you know, trying to make come alive in my brain.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
But I had this idea of the beginnings of this idea.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
About ten years ago, and it was about a male
protagonist initially, and the original inkling of an idea was
very different than what Purvis became. And Purvis became what
it became, which is far more interesting than the little
seed of an idea I had originally. Purvis came what
it became as a group effort.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
You're listening to ruck Us Avenue Radio, available now on
the free iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Yes, Hi, my name is Kamala Kahan Ruckus Avenue Radio,
which is part of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Hello, go on, how you doing. Good to see you again,
long time.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Great to see you as well, Vince, and welcome Allison
and Gordon. So up the days going well?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Go on very well, very well, how's how's Ryanne doing.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
He's doing great, Yeah, he's he's doing very well, very
very excited about the show. And it's so you know,
I'm so happy for him, and thank you for having
to be part of it. It's just a fun ride
for him.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Glad. He's such such a he did a great job.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
He's such a wonderful young man and so talented and
a sweet fella. And I hope he hasn't lost his
taste for chicken tenders. We had We made him eat
like seven hundred pounds of chicken tenders in that lunch scene.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
And and ice cream in five Yeah, had to give
him a lot of ice cream.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
But yeah, absolutely, And you know what, You've got him
for his most favorite things. So I think he's very happy.
He just for that he'll be back again, you know.
Nice But yeah, it's but yeah, no, I'm joying. He's
obviously done a good jobs formal talented than I am.
But thank you for being on the show on on
ruckus and thank you for making the time. I really
(02:45):
appreciate it. And uh, this show it's called Bollywood to Hollywood,
and really I'm just gonna introduce you guys for for
a second. So three of the creative forces here behind
purpose Vince Gilligan, Emmy winning creator of Breaking Bad and
Better Call Soul, Alison Tatlock, writer and producer on Probus,
(03:08):
who also wrote episode for it was one of the
most talked about episodes, and obviously Gordon Smith, Emmy winning writer,
director and producer. So excited to jump right into it
and have the time to talk about it. So congrats
so far on all the rave reviews and the conversations,
(03:28):
the fan fan reviews and so forth. How are you
joining the ride?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
It's fair.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Thank you for having us, Kamal, it's been it's been fantastic.
It's I it's been beyond my wildest dreams.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I can't. I just can't.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I gotta keep pinching myself and then making sure I'm
not dreaming. What do you did you guys expect it
to be this well received?
Speaker 5 (03:47):
No, no, I just expected it. It seemed like, look,
it's going to be a show that it's going to
be to some people's taste. I still think this is true.
There's going to be to some people tastes, and it's
not going to be the other people's tastes, and I've
bet I've been very gratified. I've been really gratified by
seeing it land with people I wouldn't expect to. It
(04:08):
is really resonated with some younger people who you know,
they feel at this point in my advanced age, they
feel distant from me, and I'm like, oh wow, they're
really They're kind of picking up what we're putting down
in a way that I feel really good about, which
is awesome.
Speaker 6 (04:25):
It's a big swing. So that's what's exciting and scary
about any kind of risk, and this show I think
does take a risk because it's unusual, so it would
have been foolish of us to expect anything close to
this kind of response. So you try not to think
about that, just try to make the show and see
how it lands. And now we're very excited, Yes, very much.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
So, No, that's amazing. I think that also the global response,
I mean it kind of is if you think about it,
You've got like a global aspect to all, which I
really really love, and I think the audience obviously loves.
I'm just curious from perspective. I mean, we've got a
large South Asian audience. You've included that as well. Was
there any particular way that you you know, decided to
(05:11):
pick a particular nationality or culture, or is this kind
of just like, hey, you know what, this is interesting,
or these are the characters and their background. I just
built upon that. Just curious about that.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I like the I always wanted to do a show
that was this global, and I had this much of
a reach and had and had a lot of different
languages in and a lot of different cultures, and I
just you know, this was this was a real opportunity
for us to be able to do that because this
is a worldwide event that happens in the first episode
of Pluribus. The whole world changes, and then there are
(05:45):
thirteen unchanged individuals, thirteen old schoolers as.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
We call them. And I just.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
When I was writing that those first two episodes, before
I had the benefit of working with these wonderful writers
in the in the in the writer's room, I just thought,
you know, I kind of looked at a map of
the world and kind of thought, how should where should
these folks come from? And I I just sort of
picked spots, uh, from all around the globe, and and
(06:14):
uh figured there was no wrong wrong answer to that,
and and it and and worked out it really well.
We we got wonderful actors, and we continue to hire
wonderful actors that will no doubt continue in season two.
And just it's it's you know, it really is nice
to be able to create something for lack of a
(06:35):
better way to put it, for the world, intentionally for
the world, and and uh, you know, not.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Just for for one particular culture. I like being able
to do that.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Yeah, I know, that's amazing, Vinceiven, especially, you know, bringing
in so many different nationalities and languages. It is so rich.
It's it's it's hard to do that, even if you
want to tempt to put have done it in such
a cool way. All of you guys, how did you
do that? And I know you you've probably been honest
with this a million times instance, like how'd you come
up with the idea?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
You know, it's just.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Waking up in the morning and just came to you.
Or he's just a genius, so they come from space
like you.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I'm a genius.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
No, No, it's a lot of a lot of a
lot of was that the Edison said one percent inspiration
and ninety nine percent perspiration. Uh, it's Uh, I just
I'm always I try to have irons in the fire,
so to speak. Different I'm always I've got ideas, some
of them have been kicking around literally for twenty thirty years,
and I'm still, you know, trying to make come alive
(07:37):
in my brain. But I had this idea of the
beginnings of this idea about ten years ago, and it
was about a male protagonist initially, and the original inkling
of an idea was very different than what Plurbos became.
And Purbis became what it became, which is far more
interesting than the little seed of an idea I had originally.
(07:58):
Pluribus became what it became, came uh as a group effort,
a big part of how shows get created. Uh. Sometimes
people want to admit this, or sometimes people don't want
to admit it. But for me, it's I love pointing
out what a collaborative medium television is. And you know,
when you you have a little seed of an idea
(08:20):
and then you get a bunch of wonderful writers around you,
and then you hire some just outstanding actors and everybody
does their part to make the little the little seed
grow into hopefully, you know, a mighty oak Tree. That's
that's the hope.
Speaker 7 (08:34):
Anyway, already already.
Speaker 8 (08:49):
You're listening to Ruckus Avenue Radio.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
The other thing what he's talking about.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
But it the idea, it took, it took many years
to become what it became. That's you know, it's it's
you don't usually have those eureka moments where it all
suddenly hits it once. I only had that one time,
and that was breaking Bad, And even then that was
just the beginnings of the show. It was the idea
(09:23):
of a guy who who you know, cooks crystal meth
for his family because he's dying of cancer. That that
much of the idea, that much of the character came quickly.
But nothing else I've ever done before since came together
that abruptly. Everything else just takes its sweet time. And
that's just that's just the job.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Really.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Yeah, it sounds like it marinated, but whatever it was,
it came together in a really cool way. I'd love
to kind of hear Gordon Holson how you kind of
also collaborated with taking that idea and kind of making
you know, did you sit in the wright's room and
sort of say, okay, well, let's build upon this in
a particular way. What was your How did you guys
come up with that? I know you've been working together
(10:03):
for years.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
So yeah, I mean both Alison and I were in
very early stages of discussions about about this. Vince generously
brought brought us into a little mini room to kick
the idea around when you were sort of before you
were taking it out, to just sort of see whether
you wanted it to be a limited series, an ongoing series,
(10:24):
all of that, and so we had we were privileged
to be able to sort of ask some of these
big questions about the show very early on, and you know, subsequently,
I don't know, I don't know how in terms of
what we do to help bring it about. We just
sort of respond as best we can as ourselves. It's
a weird it's a weird job because you you know,
(10:46):
all you can bring to it is your point of
view and be able to say this is what my
this is what that makes me feel, and this is
what I like about it, and there's something that's bothering me,
and can we steer it this way or this way?
And we just try and test out different options and
be able to play as much as we can with
the ideas.
Speaker 6 (11:04):
I don't know, it's pretty incredible timing because we were
coming off the final season of Better Call Saul, which
of course was a profound, you know, writer's room experience
to try to land that show together that we all
cared about so much. It was during the the you know,
in the thick of the COVID pandemic. It was in
(11:25):
the beginning of Zoom and we were all hold up
in our houses anyway, That's how we ended that show,
and it was it was very intense. And then to
be invited by Vince several of us who had already
worked together in some cases for many years but in
all cases for at least several years, to come together
and talk about something that was completely different.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
I remember joking with you.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
Guys that it was like being in a repertory theater,
like now we do Shakespeare and now we do Beckett.
And how cool to be with the same people, to
have these relationships, to be able to know that you
can collaborate and trust each other and then switch gears
in terms of the world that you're building and work
on something different. And Vince had already written two scripts,
(12:09):
so we had the benefit of his hard work, and
it was off of those two as a you know,
jumping off place, that we started to talk about the
world of the show.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
And I like that term jumping off place, because I
did have two scripts, which is always helpful, but there
was something not quite working with the we needed the
second script needed some changes, and we kind of wound
up taking it apart and putting it back together again.
And so I mean, right from the get go, it's
a you know, you're getting this wonderful help. And I
(12:41):
really like writer's rooms. I like working with you know,
you have to surround yourself with people you like and
respect and enjoy spending many, many many hours with.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
But what yeah, I don't know how coordinated through.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
But but you know, it's it's once you have that though,
it's you're You're very lucky if you have that, and
then it allows you to look really, really smart and
have people respect your work and sometimes they don't realize
just how collaborative a medium it is.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
And yeah, yeah, you get out of the credit.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
That's pretty cool. I was gonna say, you had two scripts,
Did I hear that right? And you kind of then
decided this is we're going to narrow it down to
and you know that's that's how you collaborates it on this.
But you know this is talking about shifting gears for
a second. I mean this is a departure from best
cool soul and obviously breaking bad, so that that's quite
a shift. So as far as that's concerned, you know
(13:37):
what really kind of inspired you kind of bring that
piece into it say Okay, well we're going to shift
gears you completely.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And I think just the concept of shifting gears was
appealing to me. I had I had for twenty years straight.
I had done crime stories. I had worked with these
great folks on stories about criminals, Walter White and then
Jimmy McGill who becomes a very criminal attorney saw a
(14:06):
goodman and I had a great time doing that. But
for twenty years I was writing bad guys. I was
writing folks who were pretty villainous, and we had lesser
villains who had more of a heart to them, and
we had really terrible villains on both shows.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
We had.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
A range a spectrum of villains, but we didn't have
that many good guys on those shows. We had a couple.
But before that, I'd spent seven years on the X Files,
I'd written I kind of you know, for seven years,
I was writing a couple of heroes. Agents Molder and
Scully really are heroic. They really are trying to make
(14:47):
the world a better place and save the world from
these nefarious forces. And I enjoyed the heck out of
that job for seven years. But when it was over,
I was ready for a change. I took it for
great I added the idea of writing for good guys,
and then twenty years straight almost well not quite twenty,
but a great many years writing bad guys, and then
(15:09):
I was ready for yet another change, ready for some
good guys again. I like the idea of writing a hero,
and Carol Stirka, to me, is a hero. She is
an imperfect hero, and she can be kind of a
pain in the butt, and she can be sarcastic and
snarky and kind of annoying at times, but she is
trying to do the right thing as she sees as
(15:31):
best she sees it, and that's refreshing to me. And
doing science fiction again is refreshing after so many years
of doing, as I say, crime dramas, and I like
all kinds of different genres when I'm watching movies. I
like crime stories, I like science fiction, I like westerns.
One of these days I'd love to do a Western.
But I never really sat out and say it's time
(15:54):
to do this specific genre. It's just where this one
story took me, took me back into the realm of
science fiction. But I was more excited about the idea
of writing a good guy again or a good woman,
good good people, heroic people. That was what excited me
more than the science fiction aspect.
Speaker 8 (16:20):
You're listening to Ruckus Avenue Radio Avenue available now on
the free iHeart Radio.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
Yeah, I think that's pretty cool. And also to speaking
of you know, the character Carol Starker and Rade, this
such an amazing job of representing that, but also the
other characters. You know got Mnusis and you've got Diavarte.
This is an interesting there's no real villain, as you
mentioned it, it's just about change. And a lot of
conversation has been you know, we're hearing about hey, oh
(17:06):
it's it's about AI or it's about the fact that's COVID,
But you've said it's not really about that, right, It's
about you know, viighlating the fact that there's this kind
of tension between kind of individual choices right versus the collective.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I like that is accurate. I like the way you
put that. You put that very well. I hesitate to
tell people what it's about because I want people to
take from it whatever they wish to take AI COVID,
any of those things are fair game. If I'm being
scrupulously honest, I can say that this idea came to
(17:43):
me so long ago. It was prior to COVID, and
it was prior to chat GPT. So if I'm being
literal about it, if I'm being honest, you know, precise
about it, neither of those things were on my mind.
But if people take away those things or other things,
that's fine on me. I think people should interpret the
show anyway they wish.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
M hmm. I'm going to ask you a fun question, too,
is where, like, if any of those characters had a
choice to be one of those characters in different parts
of the world, the particular one that you kind of
feel more akin to than others.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
For each of you, by the way, what do you
guys think? What do you think else?
Speaker 5 (18:22):
And where are you at?
Speaker 6 (18:22):
Which of all the characters right of the of the
of the old schoolers.
Speaker 5 (18:31):
I mean, the most fun obviously is to be would
be diabat right, not a care in the world, air force,
one killer wardrobe, like just just so unaffected by this.
That's the most fun. I don't know if I actually
would be that person.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
If it were, if it.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
Were me, I feel like, you know, I would probably
be much more like Carol, maybe more like the they
mentioned an old man who's just a who fishes. It's
not like it's the guy, and yet he's just mentioned
a dialogue that that you know, maybe that's that's what
I would be.
Speaker 6 (19:15):
That's a tough question, man question. It's a good question
you usually don't shy away. But I'm not sure I
can really answer that question.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I think I would I'd want to be the Abade
because he's so chill and happy naturally, but and then
I wouldn't be able to I just I don't think
I could pull off me in the Abate. So then
I think i'd want to be Manuso's because he's very
capable on stoic, but I'm not stoic. I think I
would be most like Carol. I think that's pretty much
of a given. I'd be complain complaining all the time.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
Oh, I see you mean you mean which are we
most like? I thought you meant more like, which one
would we want to be?
Speaker 4 (19:54):
So yeah, yeah, well yeah, I mean I want to
be able to feel like I would say, you know,
you feel you'll like, But it's a tough one. I mean,
that's conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Good question.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, I've got a minute left. I want to ask
you quick fire question. Well, one of the things I
did want to mention is I think you know the
happiness piece and eventually said I read somewhere where you
basically it's the unhappiness or the drive this will get
you up in the morning. So that's kind of part
of this, right. I think that's that's an interesting concept.
(20:30):
But there's a quick fire question I have for your
high mind or mind your own business? Which one would
you pick?
Speaker 2 (20:37):
I mind or I'd pick mind your own business. That's
pretty much it for sure. I like the way you
put that. I don't I think i'd be the high mind.
They seem very happy, but I just I need my space,
I need my you know, what do you think?
Speaker 6 (20:53):
I feel like I'm a little bit more flexible, and
even the writers from itself is a version of a
hive mind. There's conflict within it, of course, I could
you know, our results come from disagreement. So when we
say hive mind, I don't mean necessarily consensus, but in
terms of like collaboration, I choose that over like, there's
(21:19):
a reason for me that I am a TV writer
and not a screenwriter. I don't do great sitting at
home by myself in my own head. I prefer to
be with these guys and everybody else figuring it out together.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
So that's a good answer. You're right, Yeah, that's a
nice answer. It's nice.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I wish there was a third version, which is a
happy medium, but the two which I wish that for
the world, I wish, you know, I want to if
it was if extending the question out, if we could
choose between rugged individualism, which we see a lot of
in the United States right now, to the nth degree,
and it's sometimes becomes problematic. You have individuals who are
(22:01):
charismatic enough that other people follow them that you see
the degree that that you know, if you take that
to the Inns degree, you see how that can go wrong.
But then on the other hand, if everybody, if no
one had individualism at all, everybody was a soulless robot.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
That'd be terrible too. Why why can't we meet somewhere in.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
The middle and have you know, have our own individuality
and and and personality, but look out for each other
a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
That would be That would be my hope and dream.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
That's a great answer to Well, we'll go to a
few seconds left. I'm going to wrap. I thank you
so much though, for this opportunity and this conversation. It
was insightful. Thank you Alison, Thank you Gordon, Thank you, Vince.
Pleasure to have you on this show and ruck us
out in your radio auto iHeart radio and see.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Soon is a lot of fun, great talking.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
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