Graham Parker & Author Jay Nachman: The Story Behind 'Howlin' Wind' [Episode 331]

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The album considered a legacy defining work that bridge the
gap between pub rock soul and the emerging punk rock scene.
It's the story behind the nineteen seventy six album by
Graham Parker, Holland Wind. We've got Graham Parker himself and
author Jay Nackman coming up next. I'm booked on Rock.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
We're totally booked rock and roll.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading Little Hands This,
It's time to rock.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
And roll, roll out.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
I totally booked.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Welcome back to Booked on Rock. This is the podcast
for those about to read and rock. I'm Eric Sanitch,
very excited to talk to this episode's guests. We have
legendary musician Graham Parker and the author of the brand
new book titled Graham Parker's holand Wind, Jay Nackman. Guys,
thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Thanks for having us.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Eric, my pleasure.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Jay. You've been a Graham Parker fan for many years,
so no need to ask you how thrilling it was
to spend time with him to get his story put
into the book. I'm just curious how did the two
of you connect for this project.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, so I had a now mostly defunct blaw and
so I had done a couple stories with Raham. He
might not have remembered me, but I was able to
send them to him and say, hey, we've had these things.
Would you beach in the book. And we also had
some mutual associations. I'd gotten to know Brindsey Schwartz, a

(01:27):
guitar player, and his former manager Dave Robinson. So I
was sort of a little bit in his orbit. He
knew I could write a little bit, and he readily agreed.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
To do it.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
To understand Graham the artist, it's to know his origins. Jay,
you write quote Parker did what all great singer and
songwriters do. While he was writing and singing about his life,
he was singing about mine. Now this is something that
an artist can't fake. There's the story in the book, Graham,
when you played a gig in Surrey, England with Bob
Dylan air Clapton and Joan Armitrading. Phonogram Records have helicoptered

(02:01):
you in but you said, now I'm good. My parents
lived ten miles away and you stayed with them, and
you did the show talk about your early days, your childhood,
your teen years, and how they formed you as a
person in as an artist, the.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
Same thing as everybody else who was twelve years old.
The Beatles and the Stones came along, and everybody else
came along, and we had our own music. It wasn't
Elvis Presley from my cousin's slightly older cousin's generation, or
anything else, but I was exposed to all forms of
music that were available in the fifties, I suppose when

(02:36):
my parents had the big wooden transistor radio that had
the drink's cabinet underneath it, and we would listen to
a mixture of There was English novelty songs, but a
lot of American stuff from Doris Day to Duke Ellington.
Quite a bit of jazz influence there, which crept into

(02:56):
my work from the first album. On the song Lady
Doctor is a prime example of having that kind of
understanding of the swing of jazz, and then of course
R and B and rock and roll, which if it
doesn't swing, it's just rock. So and that's every musician

(03:20):
aged twelve I knew. Every kid picked up an instrument,
decided we want to be like the Beatles or whatever
it was, and that's what I did. I put a
bunch of kids together and we dressed like the beetle
about the haircuts. Managed to get Cuban heeled shoes somewhere.

(03:40):
And I was living in the suburbs, really suburb country
in Surrey, the County of Surrey, only thirty five miles
south of London, where I was born and lived for
four years. And I was one of those kids who couldn't.
By the age of seven, I couldn't. I was getting

(04:03):
claustrophobic in the suburbs of Britain. I needed more, so
I left home, went to the island in Guernsey, and
then a whole different crowd of people, more international, even
though the island is only just between southern England and France,
and much more French really. The names of the people

(04:24):
there very French origin, but people came from all around
Ireland America and worked there. You could easily get a job,
and I got a job picking tomatoes, and then in
a bakery and a few other bits and pieces, and
it was quite idyllic really, And I was there when
the psychedelic thing was going on, which I had missed

(04:45):
in Britain, being slightly too young, I suppose, But it was
all it was all going on in Guernsey, which is
a weird thing really and a small place. You're going
to be exposed to things like that if you're young.
And the next crowd I was hanging out with were
long haired psychedelic freaks and that was me. So it

(05:06):
was that from such the Beatles. Wherever the Beatles and
the Stones got their music from. We soon realized when
I was a little kid was the blues, and it
was black music in America. That's where it came from,
and they were doing their own way of doing it.
So that upbringing was very strong and me sold music
and scar you know, when I was in my fifteen

(05:27):
fifteen year old stage was really popular in sort of
underground way, and I'd go dancing to that kind of music.
It was sort of maddy boy music. We had a
short hair and sort of clothes that went with it.
I mean, most fashions we were exposed to, and that
brought music with it.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
You know, There's one story that I thought I had.
There are a few things Graham would tell me. Then I
would do my research and I would say, oh, he
did this in an interview in nineteen eighty one, or he
said this in the interview in nineteen seventy six. But
one thing I did find surprising and is that he
said that on his parents' record cabinet, which is he

(06:07):
spoke about, he would hear Danny Kaye's Inchworm and Bing Crosby,
and he said something like I beg your pardon. I
can't remember the exact quote, but those burrow into you
in some way, and I thought that was surprising that
that was an element of his musical background. One quick note, Graham,
I never said this to you, but as I was

(06:28):
also doing research, I read an interview with Nick Lowe
and he also mentioned Danny Kaye's Inchworm. Yeah, so it
was out there in the atmosphere. So that was interesting
and surprising. But you know, it's interesting following Graham's evolution
from those early soul music records he would get then
you know, the Beatles and the Stones, and then as
he said later on, it was psychedelic music and then

(06:53):
singer songwriters, but also wedged in there he became a
white blues fanatic for a bit. So he was picking
up all these influences along the way, and they were
absorbed and turned to his own thing. When he's ready
to make his record.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Bruce Springsteen talked about Graham's music and voice in the documentary.
This quote is in the book. He said, well, Graham's
music was always aggressive sounding because of his voice. He
always had that caustic attitude which he balanced with tremendous
soul and warmth. So it was a beautiful combination of things.
Your vocal style. Otis Redding's influence on you as a
vocalist is clear. What was it about him in particular

(07:30):
that connected with you.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
Well, I'd heard him, I'm sure, on the radio, but
very infrequently, and I couldn't have been more than fourteen
when a cousin of mine was leaving and in those
days they couldn't cram everything into the tiny little cars
that they had when he was leaving the area with
his parents, so he gave me some record or two.

(07:52):
One of them was the Four Tops record, which had baby,
I Need Your Loving and if you listen to that,
I think it was their first album. It might have been.
It's all very string, it's very lush string instruments. A
lot of it was stunning in that way. But Otis
reading was stunning in another way. This guy was kind
of bleeding you know when he sang it was it

(08:15):
was incredibly powerful. So I would sit in the front
room and listen to these two records, and Otis were
both of them. Motuses particularly would almost bring me the
tears with the immense emotional that he could pack into
a song, as well as having the chops to do it,
you know, the vocal chops and I am pretty incredible.
So and I think years later after I I was

(08:41):
when I was starting to find my what became my
actual style that got me my first record, deal with
handling wind. That kind of came back in a way,
the Levi Stubbs and Otis Redding way of projecting a
song and doing it like your life depends on it,

(09:02):
within great intensity. I mean, of course I couldn't sing
like those guys who can, but that so they were
inspiring back when I was a kid, and it was
inspiring just just as my career was beginning. Those those
kind of influences can come back at you when you
least expect it, really, and it was also a way

(09:24):
to start listening to those early soul records again and
anything on that order, R and B and many other things.
I was still listening to modern stuff as well. But
that crept back into me and started to form quite
an influence on what I was about to write, which
was the songs that made Howling Wind and even Heat Treatment,

(09:47):
and from then on, as I always point out, you know,
it's when my first album came out, It's nineteen seventy six.
Punk was a word in the back pages of the
news of the music press. It was not really a thing,
and everybody says, oh, it was all punk rock. No,
it wasn't. Not when Howling Wind came out, not even

(10:07):
when Heat Treatment came out my second album, which was
the same year. It was buzzing around. It was buzzing,
it was probably going to become a force, but nobody knew,
and my attitude to sing, my singing was accidentally a
bit like a you know, a preemptive strike on what
was about to come without me knowing it. I just

(10:28):
wanted to destroy prog rock and all the things i'd
like two years ago, and the music I'd lay around
listening and watching the chit ceiling change shape and affecting
my life quite deeply. I wanted to destroy it now.
And I think if you don't have that, you know,
it's a good drive to have. It was a drive.
It was like, yes, these you know in the suburbs there.

(10:50):
When I went back after my traveling to Guernsey and Morocco,
it was just like Robot City, you know, in the
suburbs of Britain. They're only thirty five miles south of London.
A good day for people was to go out the
husband and the wife and wash their cars. That was
quality time they spent together with sudsy water, it was.

(11:11):
And there was this There was a soap opera I
remember very well called a Crossroads Motel that came along
before that. Of course it was a great Coronation Street,
which was a very gritty thing at the time, but
I was very young then. Everyone liked it. This Crossroads
Hotel was the sort of morality tale of how you
should be in the suburbs. And so it was interesting

(11:32):
to have all these experience and experiences for me in
these different countries, you know, and working in Gibraltar getting
a job there and traveling and Linson living in France
for a while until I got made my way to Morocco,
which was I was about twenty about then twenty one,
and it just so it was interesting to go back

(11:53):
and live with my parents and get factory jobs, you know,
because I had nothing else. So you know, I wasn't
going to be a a musician, or was I I
didn't know. I just kept writing and writing with every
influence in me and throwing them away, throwing them away.
And I'd watched this mot I'd watched this Crossroads Hotel

(12:15):
even as my career had started, because it was tremendously inspiring.
It may be particularly angry at the mentality of much
of you know, sort of suburban, provincial Great Britain, and
out there in the summers in nineteen seventy five and
seventy six, people were just still discovering progressive rock. They

(12:41):
were discovering genesis because they were all straights and went
to work and stuff and yeah, so they grew their
hair long. I mean it was also already a very
terrible sign with you. When you see your uncle you
haven't seen for years and he's got long hair or
you know, and you know, flared pants, it's like, no, no,
this to end. And I think that drove me very heavily.

(13:03):
This must end, O case, straight trousers, short hair, angry,
looked like you want to kill somebody on stage instead
of Oh, Peace and love man twiddling around because the
audiences we had me and the rumor in seventy six
even into seventy seven would sit down on the floor
cross legged. That was the exact thing I wanted to destroy,

(13:24):
which I dubbed myself, you know, a year or two earlier,
watching what we call tyrennus cerros Rex before they renamed
themselves t Rex and started having pop singles that were
much better than what they've been doing before. So it
was that kind of attitude, and I don't think I
was alone in that. When we saw what happened with
punk with punk rock, I think a lot of those kids,

(13:47):
who were mostly younger than me, were seeing the same
thing and saying, we've got to destroy this. I think
Johnny Rotten wore a T shirt on stage saying I
hate Pink Floyd, and people hated him for that, hated him,
and then they loved him week later because he'd reinvented
the whole thing for them, you know. So that's a
driving force to be like that. You know, this fashion

(14:08):
is involved here, you know, and the fashion that doesn't
mean dressing up like a clown or anything. It means
it's in here somehow, as well as a clothing sense
and a sartorial sense. Well.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
I loved reading about Peter Green and how much he
influenced you as a guitarist because I could listen to
Peter Green all day. I could put Albatross on repeat
and listen to it all day. And what a beautiful tone.
Tell us about when you first discovered him and how
he influenced you as a guitarist.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
That was like before I went to Guernsey for a
left home there, but it was a similar period nineteen
sixty eight and sixty nine of the blues white blues
bands were big, and I was hip to John Mayle
early on because I had a friends who were slightly
older who had blues records. You know, they knew their stuff.

(14:58):
They knew the folk musicians of Britain and the blues
musicians of America. It all intertwined that kind of thing,
and Peter Green was someone I think he went through
the John Mayle stable because he had Eric Clapton. I
think there was Mick Taylor. I think Peter Green for
a while. Peter Green was obviously a unique talent like

(15:19):
those other guys. He just happened to hit me the
hardest because what he played was sol music. What he
sang was sole music. You know. The classic of that
that says it all in one song is needs You
Love So Bad? A song he didn't even write. The
original version of it isn't very compelling, but Peter Green's
version is ridiculous. And then they had this kid, Danny

(15:40):
Kerwin who joined. He was seventeen at the time, and
I went to see him and he just joined. Was
like after they had their hit Albatross, but they booked
already in a small club in my area, and I'd
already had tickets and they had number one hit with Albatross,
but they were still honoring this agreement to play in
this time club called the gin Mill Club in Godalming

(16:04):
in Surrey. And so there was this kid, Danny Kohen,
every bit as good as Peter Green, but unfortunately, I
think he went the wrong way and got a bit
probably addicted to something or other, and he hated the fame,
hated it, and I don't think Peter Green did too
much either to be overwhelmed by. Suddenly they were having

(16:28):
massive hits and they were worldwide, and Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac.
Of course, the first album was a Fleetwood Mac album,
and that was sixty eight and on a record label
called Blue Horizon. Incidentally, a song of mineled Blue Horizon,
This just sprung to mind is on a record of
Minel Struck by Lightning, And if you listen to that song,

(16:50):
I'm playing lead guitar on it. As I did a
lot of a lot of albums. Then nineteen ninety one
it came out and I'm ripping. I'm pulling from Peter
Green all the man, I'm pulling all that stuff. I mean,
I was never going to be a virtue of so
I was never going to be good enough to be that.
I had to be a singer songwriter. But when the
red light comes on, I'm playing electric guitar. You know,

(17:11):
some pretty good stuff comes out, and you might hear
quite a bit of Peter Green's stuff in there with
mix with a bit of Danny Kerwin in that very
song in the league guitar playing.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Jay, I'll throw this to you. There are some great
stories in the book of those early days. One you
mentioned Clapton Graham, the story where you're playing foosball with
Eric Clapton and Jack Bruce pre Cream Days at a
Cabin series before. Yeah, any stories, any Graham stories that
stand up for you, Jay and Graham You could of
course add your thoughts as well, but any good stories

(17:47):
from those days that you want to share.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Well, probably any good stories are in the book, you know.
But it was just surprising as someone who's still I
think the funny thing with Eric Clapton is because Graham
wasn't so much into him. He you know, he's playing
foosball with Eric Clapton, you know, and they were just
guys down the block, you know, And I thought that
was a little surprising. But then the flip side when

(18:10):
he saw Peter Green, it was like, oh my god,
I've just met God.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
You know.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
So it's kind of just funny to hear how Graham
view these different artists. You know, some he was really into,
some he's not. But all this sort of classic rock realm. Well,
one funny thing, I was looking for somebody to be

(18:35):
and you think everybody knows everybody in the in the
music industry, and I was looking for somebody to speak
about Peter Green's prowess as a guitarist. I ended up
with Snowy White, who was terrific and I'm glad I
spoke with him. But I said, you know, throwing names
off of Graham. I said, I'm going to try and
reach Peter Frampton and Graham said, never met him. A

(18:56):
dame my life, you know. So I figured somewhere down
the road he might have just crosspas. So it's just
funny how you think, as I said, everybody in the
music industry, particularly I guess in Britain news every maybe
the case song construction.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
Graham, when when did that start for you? When did
you start to realize, you know, I can write a song.
How do you develop that style? It takes a long time, right.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
Well, it did for me. There are other people who
are faster learners. But I mean I was twenty four
when I got a record deal. That's kind of cutting
it short, you know, be careful, and to me it
was like unknown whether I would ever All I wanted
to do was make one album. So if I could
make that, that would be amazing. At least I could
go down the pub and people say, didn't you make

(19:41):
an album once? Graham? Yeah, I did. Actually, yeah that
was pretty cool man. That was it the end, the end,
you know, it didn't really matter.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
But the song Construction, James Taylor was an influence, right.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, well they were all influenced from the Beatles. Look
at the song Construction, They're incredible and all the stuff
for it. You know that I heard pre that, But
and the song the singer song has came along at
the same time as I was being influenced by psychedelic
more psychedelic kind of music, and there was James Taylor

(20:14):
and people like that and Joni Mitchell, and they could
do it and just on a guitar, you know, if
they wanted to. They made albums with musicians and all that.
But and that that helps a lot. It all helped,
every single bit of it. I mean when the Beatles
came along, I immediately wrote a song called Won't You
Come Back? Complete with it. Oh, but I had every

(20:35):
I was thirteen. You know. It was obviously an innate ability.
There's an innate ability there. It wasn't something I invented.
It's not something in learning college.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
You know.

Speaker 3 (20:48):
I'm sure you can learn a lot of useful things,
but you know, they're just construction ideas. I suppose, so
it before my career fell into place kind of myself
as it were it would have been back to school days.
It would have been sole shoes songs that were on
the album. That's when I realized there's no turning back.

(21:08):
I have to complete this now, I have to keep
you gut writing in this kind of style and this
were this is kind of intensity. Well, there's something about
it that was compelling enough to me to think I've
got the tools here. Now you know, I didn't use
that language, but that's what it felt like, really.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Right, Yeah, let's get into some of the songs. Get
let's get into the album. We have Graham Parker and
Jay Nackman, the author of Ram Parker's Howl and Wind.
The debut from nineteen seventy six features the musicians known
as the Rumor, named after the song by the band.
Thought that was interesting. I read that in the book. Jay, First,
can you tell us about the history behind this lineup

(21:48):
and how they teamed up with Graham? The accounts vary.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, well that's a big story. I guess I'll try
and be as brief as possible, and Raham can certainly
chime in, although he didn't actually meet them until he them,
But look, there was Brinsley Schwartz and Bob Andrews, who
were members of the band Brinsley Schwartz Band. And another
funny quote from Graham in the book where He's which

(22:14):
I thought was unique and original. Then I was again
with those quotes where oh man, I read it in
Melody Maker or something from back in the day where
Graham says he thought Brinsley Schwartz was a heavy metal band. Him, yes,
and so so Graham was not. I mean, that's another
instant thing too, is that Graham was just wholly removed

(22:35):
from that pub rock scene, holy removed. It was just
not on his radar at all. He thought Bensey Schwartz
was a heavy metal band, but they were sort of
the kingpins, or one of the kingpins of the pub
rock scene. And then you had Martin Belmont who was
in Duck's Deluxe, another leading pub rock band. And then
you had the rhythm section of Andrew Bodner and Steve Goulding.

(22:58):
But I guess really the key to all that is
Dave Robinson. Dave Robinson sort of is the keystone who
sort of knew all these people and then began working
with Graham and eventually managing him. So he put them
all together I think that can really be laid at
the feet of Dave Robinson.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, and then there were some gigs, a few gigs
that were performed before you start recording the album, which
Graham that was important. Tell us about those early gigs
leading up to the recording, about a handful of gigs.
One show somewhere in the Sticks you played in front
of three people and a dog. Other areas like London,
people knew who Brinsley Schwartz was. It's a bigger crowd.

(23:41):
But either way, that's where you guys gelled and became
super tight.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
Well we you know, there's that recording that was on
sale on Graham Parker dot net, the official website. Live
at Newland's Tavern, which is possibly the first gig that
me and Laruma ever did, or it was the Nag's
Head in high Wick and I've always got them confused,
but let's call it the Nags, the new Lanced have them.

(24:07):
Where the owners allowed us to rehearse. They knew all
the Brimsley people and all that stuff, and Dave Robinson.
They allowed us to rehearse there for free. So that's
where we got together as far as I know. That's
when I met them all together, and it wasn't long
before this tall fellow named Nick Lowe came down because
Dave Robinson thought he's good, he'd be good as a producer.

(24:29):
And that show that we did there, somebody had some
crude tape recording device at the bar, and it's astonishing
to me how good I was. That was my first
show in front of a real audience in a place
where you know, some of the legends have played over
the over the years, I suppose, and some some you

(24:51):
know artists who actually got paid to play. And we
were good right then, so it didn't take long. It
was instant all. Most so probably when we played the
Three Men and a Dog we were really hot right then
because that was after Newland's Tavern and we would go
up to a club in Birmingham that they used to
play called Barberellas. Another place I think it might have

(25:13):
been Newcastle called the uh the Outlook which we called
the Outlook Gloomy that was somewhere up north and we
you know, people will come and sit on the floor
across legged. That was it that some of the early
gigs and scratch their heads. Why is the guitar solo
only ten seconds long. You know, that's a bit baffling.

(25:36):
Guitar sellos were supposed to be an hour long where's
the drum solo? And here are we doing three and
a half minute songs that with extreme aggression, And the
audience was still like this is a bit confusing. But
a few people came out there saying, that's what we've
been waiting for. We like that. You know, so those
early gigs you have to go through it to get
to it. But we were pretty hot from the word go.

(25:58):
I don't you know, we really worked from that first gig.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
So the confidence was there as you head into the
studio to record this album.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah, I mean, in reality, I was scared out of
my mind. I was, you know, very nervous. Get on stage.
There's something called monitors. In fact in front of me,
these monitor wedges, and I'm supposed to know how to
ask for things to go into the monitors. My vocal
oh you hear a bit of drums? I copied. I
didn't know what I was doing, but on stage it

(26:27):
was like I just became sort of a hurricane force quickly.
And once I'd learned I could put my acoustic guitar
down because no one could hear it anyway, and start
strutting the stage around a bit and doing a bit
of the Mick Jagger.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
You know.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
I became very, very confident. It was like I can
own this thing. And so that started happening. Within about
a year after how New Wing came out. In that year,
it started happening that I could really start to think yeah,
because we went to America very quickly in seventy six,
not long after the album first album came out, and
for heat treatment. I think twice we went in the

(27:02):
back of the station wagon and I wasn't really you know,
all I thought was, if they don't get it from
hearing it, they're idiots, so why bother trying to make
a show of it. And Dave criticized me, but he said,
look at you know, look at these American bands. I said,
they're all fake. We were opening for all these American bands,
a lot of American and it was like, I said, yeah,
I don't want to fake it. I just won't play.

(27:24):
And then my guitar I think my guitar strap broke
in one of those things that happened. Jay will know
this from the story and the folk clubs, guitar straps
that are badly attached with bits of rubble, bits of
leather bootlace. It snapped at one of the gigs me
in the rumor did, and so I just started poking
at the air, Hey lord, don't ask me questions, instead

(27:46):
of playing an acoustic guitar that nobody could hear. So
that was I thought, Oh, here we go. Yeah, Dave's right,
I need to make a show of this. Did showbiz? Man?
It's not just singing the show bits, you know. And
I cranked it up into overdrive from there.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
Jay, when did you first see Graham perform?

Speaker 2 (28:03):
The first time I think I saw him was here
in Philadelphia where he opened up for Cheap Trick in
a big arena, the Spectrum. And I was talking after
the book with a friend of mine who was also
at that show, and he said, I think the band
Marillion was there as well, which I have no recollection

(28:25):
of none whatsoever. So that might have been in seventy eight,
seventy seven, I can't remember exactly. But then I grew
up in I came to school here in Philadelphia, whether now,
but I grew up in Virginia Beach and that summer was.
I think it was seventy nine, might have been seventy eight.

(28:46):
He played in a small club and they tore the
roof off the place.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
I mean it was.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Everybody was standing up in screaming. And I still have
the review from the show, which I've shared with Graham.
And I've said this before as well. I mean that
summer everybody was touring in that same club. I saw
Warren Zevon, I saw the Ramons. There were big arena shows.
I think CSN and the Graham Park of the Rumor
were as good as any of them, if not better.

(29:18):
I mean, they were just at their peak, you know,
they were. Martin Belmont has said that as well. He
would say he says something like there was in that
period there's no band better than us live. And I
believe it because I saw it.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Was there concern Graham going into the studio then that
that you were able to translate that energy into the
studio when you first went in to do Holland Wind.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah, I by then I thought, Wow, I got a
record deal just like that. I've got this amazing crap
band in behind me who know how to play my work.
They've been around the block so much and played so
many styles in that in that their professions, they were
professionals already. All these bands have broken up, like The Ducks,

(30:03):
De Luxe and Britsy Schwartz and other bands that were
called pub rock. They seem to have all kind of
floundered a bit because they'd done enough of it and
it was like time for you know, seeing if something
new came along. And it turned out for them that
I popped out of dropped out of the sky from nowhere,
from the suburbs, you know. And so in the studio,

(30:28):
I wasn't really intimidated. You know, there was nerves. There's
always nerves. I mean, he was going to think, what
if I screw up? What if I'm an idiot? But
it was it didn't bother me. I just went in headfirst.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
You defend n Nick Lowe produced the album. He was criticized.
Some would say he was just bashing out songs in
the studio, But you say his contributions have at times
been undervalued.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Well, yeah, I thought he was excellent producing my work, fantastic,
and he went want to produce quite a bunch, a
whole bunch of other stuff. And I didn't understand his songs.
Then I didn't think anything of them because I mean,
I'd never heard any of this stuff. And I had
a record deal, so I get a free Brinsley Schwartz

(31:13):
album from and you know, so I hear these things,
and I really didn't think, how does this relate to me?
I don't know, but when these guys play, it relates
to me somehow or another. They can transpose themselves into
being backing musicians for me brilliantly. And so I think Nick,
you know, he's the man who gets the atmosphere like

(31:35):
this is fun. Guys, come on, you know I can
and you can do but gone another take, another take?
Come on? That was almost there, almost there. But we
didn't do many takes because that was the idea. Don't
do too many takes. It always gets worse, you know,
with actual rock and roll, it always gets worse. If
you can get the first take, you've got something, You've
really got something. Otherwise, if it's the third or fourth,

(31:57):
that's all right as well. That's pretty great. But I
think he captured a sound. I think his ability with
along with the guy who came with the studio engineer,
to get a sound that feels sometimes on a big state.
On a good stereo, it feels like you're a bit.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
In the room with us exactly.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
You know, on a small speakers it doesn't feel like
that so much. But that was there, and I don't
think i'd hardly ever reproduce that with any record.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, that's the first thing. First thing I thought of
hitting play on that opening track, which is my favorite.
I love White Honey, and that's you feel like you're
in the room, you feel like you're in a club
watching the band perform.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah, he captured that really well. It was that spa
bit of spaciousness there, you know that you get now
and again in some of those records, especially when they
were on vinyl. As I think about digital now, all
bands and acts and singers, they may we may all
sound different, but but digital makes it all feel the same.

(32:57):
My specific word for that is it all feels the
same now it's not vinyl straight to a record a turntable.
Having said that, I never listened to vinyl. Really, I've
got get I've got vinyl records that I get all
the time, but really listen because I don't. I don't
have that set up really, So guilty is charged. But

(33:20):
that's you know, that's where we come to. That's okay,
it's you've got to progress. Everything goes forward. I'm not
a lud eite. I'm not a luddites. Really. I would
prefer not to get Spotify fees, but that's rate. But
that's the way that goes. But the actual idea of
it being streamed, that's what. That's the way it was.
I embraced cassettes when they came along because you could

(33:40):
put them in on you in your car, you know.
I had a little machine and I stick them on
and have them on the seat next to me or
on the back seat and playing stuff. So I embraced
it all. But the feel of things was definitely different
when it was made for vinyl and it was on
vinyl and there was nothing else, you know, so that
Hallingman benefited from that.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
I think it's important to add. You know, we talked
about the energy ram and the rumor brought to that
first album, but let's not neglect the ballads. I mean,
you're not going to get any finer singing then on
between you and Me or Gypsy Blood, So you know,
there was that balance between the energetic, hardcore rocking stuff
and then the really deeply emotional ballads.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Absolutely, well, let's get into the tracks. The book gets
into all of the tracks, and people should go out
and buy the book for that, and of course the
story that leads up to the album. But just going
to pick out two or three here. The track listing
was put together by Graham and Nick. The twelve tracks
are white Honey, Nothing's going to pull us apart, silly Thing, Gypsy, Blood,
between You and Me, back to school Days, soul Shoes,

(34:43):
Lady Doctor, You've got to be kidding Holland win track
not if it pleases me, and don't ask me questions
the album title you came up with, Graham, and I
want to ask you about the title track. The opening lyrics,
the waterfalls trinkling like bells to my ears, the earth
rolls out for me through smiles and tears, a country lost,
a soul discovered, the ruin that I once was will

(35:06):
soon be covered. That song, you say is about your reinvention.
Tell us the story behind this one. The music just
came to you in a moment of great inspiration.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Actually, hearing that sounds like I was tripping balls.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
It's brilliant. By the way, I don't embarrass you.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
But it's quite trippy that, yeah, I was. Yeah, it's
a reinvention. I think, the constant reinvention of people when
they're young and you know, maybe talented in some artistic
respect or any respect. That it's different from accepting what
your life was supposed to be. You know, from me

(35:47):
as again, working class education, the class system education of
Britain was where I come from. Howling Wind destroys that
you know in that song right there is reinvent yourself.
If you've got the if you've got what it takes
to do that, it's there waiting for you until you

(36:08):
find a sort of stronger version of you. And for me,
it had to be music that did that. For other
people it would be totally totally different things. It doesn't matter.
And that's you know, you can do that when you're
very young. It's harder to do that when you're above thirty,
to reinvent yourself, you know, let's be honest, and to
write even songs that have the same synaptic kaboom to them,

(36:33):
you know, that's a young person's game for the most part.
So I guess that's what it felt like I did.
I was not going to buckle and be what I
was supposed to be according to my education, according to
anybody around me. And I think it's not nothing original.
I'm stating here, it's youthful rebellion, almost against what you are.

(37:00):
What have I been stuck with here? And I could
end up like this for the rest of my life, man,
you know. So Howling Win definitely illustrates that strongly to me,
and it became the album title perhaps because of that,
but also it sort of reminding me of Howling Wolf
or something. I went back to the Blues roots of
it all. It sounded like that, you know. I mean,

(37:22):
there's a talk about a character of powerful presence. Howling
Wolf are unbelievable. So yeah, I took a bit cheeky
I suppose calling it Howling Wynn, But there you go.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
I love the swirling Organs.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah, he's got the Leslie thing going, the spinning, the
old spinning thing, and the Leslie Man. Fantastic.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, Bobby Andrews, Yeah, yeah, Well I told you my
favorite track is White Honey. And it's a tough call because,
like Springsteen says, every cuta of spectacular talk about this
one White Honey. There's some van Morrison influence in there,
but also the tin pain in Ali songs like Shuffle
Off to Buffalo.

Speaker 3 (38:02):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I had that. I had an album
of all those Hollywood songs. I'd watched these films, Black
and White, Hooray for Harleywood and all this stuff. Busby Berkeley,
and it coincided with some of the Van Morrison albums
post them, of course, you know, Tupelo Honey and Hard
Nose the Highway. It coincided with that. It was, and

(38:23):
it took me back to what I've probably heard on radio.
I probably heard some of those Busby Berkeley songs, Harry
Warren and Al Ruben, those writers that Jay researched very
well and found out well the sheer body of work
that those guys used to produce. And I was really
into that as I was writing, and outcomes White Honey.

(38:45):
So I go, okay, there's the Van in there for sure,
which everybody is going to shout Van rip off. You
know they're going to do that, no question. But there's
there's a lot more going on in that swing than that.
There's also something that nobody has ever spotted, you know,
and I have. I have said it a few times.
I've actually illustrated it on stage playing the song slow solo.

(39:06):
It's one of the main influences the Young Rascals. Oh yeah,
you'd never hear that unless you know the melody the
Young Rascals Groovy on a Sunday afternoon, White Honey, get
it from your canny man.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
Wow, A real steal.

Speaker 3 (39:24):
But I didn't know it when I wrote. I thought
I was just doing Van, you know, and then I realized, no,
it's much more than that. And it's also it's a bit.
It's the Young Rascals, it's that melody.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
But that's cool though. You take all those influences, but
then it becomes your own.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah, you repurpose it. And there's no doubting who it is.
It's a bloke named Graham Parker whoever he is. He's
this new guy. But it's okay, I get it. It sounds
like him.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
That's just you know, if I'm throwing a party, that's
the song I'm starting with. That that's going to get
everybody up. All right, Jay, let's let's throw it to you. Jay,
you'r a favorite track for you, and then Graham can
maybe you share a story behind that track? What's your favorite.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Jay, that's so tough, but it might be between you
and me. Let me add some people maybe able to
relate to this. If my memories right. There's certain artists
you chase because you want to hear them do certain
songs live. And I think I finally got to hear

(40:22):
Between you and Me live Graham at the Teen Angel.
I know you played a lot here in Philadelphia. Yeah,
but I think you might have done a reggae version.
I'm not quite sure did you ever? So it's like, no, no, no,
give me the original. But that said, I just think
the vocals on that are so evocative and it's kind
of an unrequired, unrequited love kind of story that I

(40:46):
could relate to at that time, so that you know,
asked me another day it might be you know, halliwind
or don't ask me questions, but right now it's between
you and me.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Graham. Story behind that song.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
Yeah, not based on anything specific, but based on experience
of being dissed and you know this kind of thing,
the male female thing of but I didn't put any
nastiness into it. Strangely, it was pretty sweet, the whole thing.
And I said to Jay, I think that all I
knew were the lads in the harbor. It reminded me

(41:20):
of Otis seeing the dark of the bay. I make
this dock something about the atmosphere of him sitting by
the dock of the bay and you know whatever, maybe
something romantic in there, something romantic about was sitting at
the dock of the bay. In fact, I could have
been I was working on the docks in Gibraltar many

(41:40):
years before. Maybe a bit of that atmosphere came through
to me, or any docks sitting there and the waves
and you know, the quiet of the boats or something.
I think that's as important as anything that might be
real or might not be real. About the lyrics. It's
being evocative with lyrics and I thought that was immediately

(42:02):
evocative as soon as I started writing that. I do
remember that much. And it's very singer songwriter. The song
is totally it's you know, not any of these pub rock,
punk rock, new wave. It's a singer songwriter song. The
reason I've been doing it reggae for quite some years, Jay,
is because it just feels good to me. I sort

(42:25):
of prefer it. And now, because of a few hand
problems of being you know, ancient, you know these things happen,
and from playing guitar with terrible technique for most of
my life, it's easier to play reggae on electric guitar.
So that's maybe you won't hear it again the way
it should be. I understand.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
Grim Is there a song you're most proud of? Is it?
Would it be the title track from this album?

Speaker 3 (42:51):
I think, between you and me, I'll be as proud
of that as anything. But I'm proud of the entire
album in a way. I mean, I can't help it,
but because it's my first album, and you know, i'd
never a lot of artists would be just disregarded. But no,
I was good enough right then. I didn't. I'm not
going to disregard it was. It was a fantastic first record.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Really, Yeah, to be that good right out of the gate.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
Yeah, that's why. Yeah, there it was. I thought it
was always a good thing to not go off sort
of half with a gun half loaded. You know. I
started to gather that feelings. No, keep writing, keep writing,
not good enough, even though I could have missed the
train by being a bit old. You know, by the
time I got the deal.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Were you at that time?

Speaker 3 (43:35):
I was twenty four. I think, yeah, it was like
nineteen seventy five and I was not twenty five until November,
and we were already a band. Then I had a
record deal and all that stuff. As far as my
timeline goes, I think Jay Will will agree with that
timeline because we all had to put our heads together
and think hard, and no one was taking notes back then.

(43:57):
But yeah, so that's you. You know, George Harrison, what
was he seventeen? You know, their talent came a lot
stronger than mine did at a very young age, but
mine just helped. It had to go through a lot
of stuff.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
That's always an interesting story though, that when an artist hits,
you know, some of them are later. I think Sting
was maybe in his late twenties and you know when
the police took on. I mean that's always interesting. But Graham,
you mentioned Peter Green and having trouble with fame. How
did you feel about the praise that the album received
from the fans from the critics like Real Marcus, was

(44:35):
that all good or was it a little bit like WHOA,
this is putting a lot of pressure on me here?

Speaker 3 (44:41):
I thought it was. I expected it. I expected people
like Real Markers, who I didn't really know much about,
if anything, but I realized, oh, this is one of
the top guys. He's actually on tour with us. He
thinks that much of it. I thought they would get it.
I actually thought that the critics would get it. The
public probably won't. And as far as the American public
were concerned, it wasn't going to get played on radio

(45:02):
to any extent. There wasn't, you know, thousands of tiny
stations that people had in their own house. Then there
was there was the college radio, and I'd find myself
at the you know some of those places late at night,
talking to the DJs and you know, drinking and stuff,
and they were playing what they wanted. But most of
America was pretty buttoned up with what became known as

(45:25):
corporate rock, you know. So I didn't think it was
going to be an easy sell at all, but didn't
worry me one bit. Man. There I was out on
the road. I did become overwhelmed with my modest amount
of fame, and I thought it would be pretty awful
to be really famous. I just thought that would be awful.

(45:47):
Not that I didn't try to write hit songs or anything.
I always thought they were catchy. I was just always
I was just writing songs, and I always thought they
had a lot going for them in that respect, but
it was, Yeah, I just wanted to duck out of
all the attention. A lot of the times I do
a gig in London, like two thousand people and just

(46:10):
sneak out the back door with you know, my girlfriend
at the time, or drive back to my parents in
the night and crash there because it was overwhelming, all
this flood of information, all these people who want to
know you and stuff, and very modest fame. But you know,
it's much more than you kind of think it is.
When you're at a low level like we were, that
kind of mid level playing the playing the two thousand

(46:32):
and three thousand theaters and doing three nights, it's a
certain amount of Graham Cam Graham, we want you, we
want to come here, Graham go. Yeah, I love you Graham.
It's like, God, damn it. You know, yeah, I didn't
really ask for that.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
But when did you become comfortable with that, or when
did you realize, Okay, I can handle this. It is
what it is. It's not going to change.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Stopped. I think when it slowed down and I got
to the point of my career where I was a
known a figure. I wasn't going to suddenly be gonna
come a superstar. But still there was too much. It
was still too much. It's better now. It was better
when I was, you know, in the nineties and two thousands,
just playing small gigs around the USA and to some

(47:16):
extent Britain and going to Sweden and Europe doing solo
gigs or with a backing band out out in the
middle of nowhere wherever I was. It seems it's much
more enjoyable and down to earth.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Hey guys, we'll get back to the show, but first
I want to tell you about an exclusive deal for
Booked on Rock. Listeners get fifteen percent off any purchase
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(47:53):
glory dot com, make sure to use the promo code.
Booked on Rock. Also find a link in this episode
show notes, or just go to bookd Rock dot com
and click on my deals. I was telling my friend
I was going to be interviewing you, and she goes,
oh my god, this is forty That was the first
thing she said, So what did that do for? What
was that experience? So how did that all come about?

(48:14):
By the way, But then also you know that that
got you some notice people recognize you, right, well, yeah,
it got.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
It was a really good career bump or life bump.
Really it was like have my first album, right, you know,
it was a bit like that. This was like, wow,
this excitement is amazing. Man.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Great movie by the way, for those who may not know,
Graham is in.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
That, John Apatow and you know Paul Rod Yes, oh man,
it was. It was unbelievable. I just reformed the rumor
by accident, and they were going to Okay, they all
agreed they were going to come to the USA. I
wanted to do it there in a studio I had
worked out Struck by Lightning being one of the records,

(48:56):
and quite quite a few others. I wanted to do
the first three union album there. And within a week
or two of doing that, John Appersol got a hold
of my new publishing company and they said he wants
to talk to you. I said, well, come on, give
me okay email and I said, I'll meet you anywhere.
Judd and because he used Love Gets You Twisted in

(49:17):
one of his shows, it's called Undeclared. Fantastic show actually,
along with Freaks and Geeks, TV shows that never made
it big because they were too good and TV networks
didn't really regret. Yeah, there were great shows and I
missed them entirely until my song had been used, and
then I discovered Freaks and Geeks. I think it came
before Undeclared. And so Judd is a big fan of

(49:42):
lots of artists. I mean, I'm just one of the many.
But he saw the potential of me acting this guy
who destroys the record company by dint of his spectacular unpopularity.
And he's like, in my sixties, it was the record
company filtered record. Paul Rudd's record label has also signed

(50:04):
hair Cut one hundred apparently, and you know, uh, Frank
Black without the main focus of his music, which is
the big thies, you know, and he signed all these
losers potentially and really, and I thought, oh, I can
kill this role. This is me. I can destroy a
record company just like that man, no problem, and so

(50:27):
it was a great bump. It was a wonderful thing,
and they were I was turning up at all these things,
some big hall in New York with all the half
most of the cast of the actors being flown first class.
This is years after Hollywood, to be at the Billboard
Building with artists and talking about music and film like

(50:49):
I know anything my leg so oh great, I get
a lot of free food, a first class hotel, in
the first class flight. Yeah, bring it, you know. And
whenever I'd be out in England anywhere and a few
people say it's Graham Parker and they'd look me up.
Oh yeah, I saw the movie. Young people, young people
like twenty year old. Oh yeah, you're the guy who
ruined that agency record. My neighbors in this in the

(51:15):
here in London, their kids were watching the TV. They
were watching the They didn't know much about me. They
knew something to do with music. They were watching the
TV one night and This Is forty came on and
they were it's great, it's next door. The kids were
really little. From then on, those kids were like hiding
from me. So there's a movie starff you know, now

(51:39):
they're great, big tall men and they're like, you know,
is that just that stupid geezer.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Bumbled around? You know, well, I'll tell you, and yeah,
you could attest this. I'm sure you know. I had.
There was one time I was out of brother. My
brother had was throwing a party. We're all listening to
music and we're right, and there's always that section of
the of the group of friends that my brother has.
We just love music. And you know, you start talking
about popular bands popular already, start talking about the really

(52:07):
cool musicians, the ones you really need to know. And
I'm telling you I'm not I'm not making this up.
You know so many times you know, Graham Parker ever
listening to Grant Parker, you know, so, yeah, I know
Grant Parker is like, you're that cool, Like you know,
there are a lot of people that know who you are,
but there are people that may not and they should.
And I don't know, Jay, if you could, if you

(52:28):
know what I'm what I'm talking about. You have those
conversations with music friends, you.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Know, it's like, right, well, it's hard because most of
my music friends we share similar tastes, you know, but
even now some you know, they might like this group
was more than me. I'm like a little group more
than them. But in the main we like the kind
of you know, I don't want to mention names, but
we're not as interested in what Graham referred to as

(52:51):
corporate rock, right, you know, we like the real thing.
And so, you know, most of my friends are pretty
aware of Grand Parker. My sisters, that's a different story,
you know. So he's not like the mainstream. You know,
they're not going to know Graham. And if you can
expose his music to some of them, either through the
music or the book, hey all the better. Can I

(53:12):
say one more thing that we touched on that I
want to which is one of the things that I
don't surprises the right word, but Graham's self awareness that
his songs have to be top notch. I mean, I
have this mental image of him scribbling on a notepad,
crumpling it up and throwing it away. It may not

(53:33):
have happened like that, but over and over in the
book he says the songs I knew the songs just
weren't good enough. And I think that's the mark of
a real artist who saying, you know, I'm not gonna
just put it out there, just to have something out there.
You know, the songs have to be good, and I
think it's been a hallmark throughout his career. But it

(53:54):
was interesting to me that he just knew himself. He
was self aware enough to know that with the songs.
A few want to say about that, well, yeah, I did.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
Make a few attempts, premature attempts, I soon realized after
when I started writing the songs that became Howling Wind.
One was John Peel, the British DJ started a label
with a kind of slightly post psychedelic name of Dandelion Records,

(54:25):
and I did send him some kind of tape of
my songs at the time, which I knew were good
in their own way, and it didn't you know. I
think I got a postcard from him actually back, which
was not quite what we're looking for now, which kind
of ruined about, you know that the next hour of
my life, the idea of that. I was pretty young.

(54:48):
I was pretty young man and not ready. So there
were a few premature attempts, and one was getting a
publishing deal before my career began, with a company called
town Bridge Records, and because I thought, well, maybe my songs,
maybe they can get them to people who are established
and they might find something in but they weren't quite there.

(55:11):
And it was very good that I was. I understood
that as I as I was growing into in my twenties,
you know, from age twenty two twenty three onwards, I
you know, I sort of had this understanding that, man,
you've got to keep working. You've got to you've got
to be more than just you know, good, got to

(55:33):
be better than good. And kept working, kept writing, and
that's it just became a sort of mindset of mine.
And it's almost almost a sense of morality about it.
Don't waste anyone's time, including your own.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Jay, Yeah, what does this album mean to you? All
these years later?

Speaker 2 (55:54):
I play Paneled periodically, you know, a few times a year,
but obviously I listened to it a lot closer while
doing the book, and I was reminded once again just
how good the album is. All three elements. You've got
the band playing, so there's they're they're playing with such

(56:17):
sensitivity behind Graham, you know, just every every note is
in the right place, every every every instrument is right there.
You've got these wonderful, wonderful lyrics, and then as I
think I say in the book, the vocals just tie together.
You know, his singing is just so passionate, and so

(56:38):
he's invested in every lyric, every line, and so you've
got you know, the playing, the singing, and the lyrics,
the songs themselves. It's just, you know, it's spectacular. Like
us Bastin said, every song is spectacular.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Find the bookdown Rock website at bookdown Rock there and
can find all the back episodes of the show, the
latest episode in video and audio links to all of
the platforms where you can listen to the podcast, plus
all the social media platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
and x. Also check out the Booked on rockblog. Find
your local independent bookstore. Find out all the latest hot

(57:20):
rock book releases, and before you go, check out the
Booked on Rock online store. Pick up some Booked on
Rock merch. It's all at booked on Rock dot com.
Graham Parker's Howl and Win is out now. You can
find it through Amazon.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
Correct right Graham Parker's Halowin on Amazon and you'll see
plenty of five star reviews.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
Absolutely well worth the read, and I really congratulations Jay
on this project and Graham, congrats on an amazing career.
And we were looking forward to I was talking to
you before we started recording. Maybe you can come back
around here to the East coast here in the US.
I'd love to see it perform.

Speaker 3 (57:59):
Yep. Well, you have to keep an eye on Graham
Parker dot net, I suppose, and on the tour page
other you know, some people follow me on Twitter and
blue Sky, so I usually and there's a Facebook official
Facebook page Graham Parker, so you know, that's how we
find things out these days. I guess online, but I'll

(58:19):
be there, you know, hopefully second third week of April
by the end, aside of doing some shows solo shows
April May and Connecticut may well get on the list.
It depends on all the vagaries of booking. Everyone and
his brother is out touring and playing everywhere. It's competitive

(58:40):
and you know, getting things in line with a touring
schedule is always difficult for the agents, you know, the
booking agents, my agent. But keep an eye out. That's
the way to do it.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
And Jane, where can we find you if we want
to find you? Online? Website and social media?

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yeah, so there's a website, well, I think it's called
Graham Parker's ham and Win dot net and that has
my email address on it and a link purchased the book.
And otherwise I'm on Twitter, I'm on Blue Sky, I'm
on Facebook. I love to hear from people about what

(59:16):
they think about the book, and if their thoughts are good,
they usually set them on the GRAM. I don't, but
it hasn't been anything too negative. Yeah, I'm happy to
hear from people.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
Sure, great Graham Parker, J. Nackman, thank you so much. Guys.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
Well, thank you Jay for a great book. You did
a really amazing job, very well researched. And thanks Eric
for your time. Man. It's nice talking here. That's it.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
It's in the books.

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