Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Yeah, yeah, look to theman, no trouble. I don't want
to beat man. I just wantvibe big man like me. No need
for the telephone high I got toomuch can online who won't and my completely
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this is crashed, all right.So back in two thousand and seven,
my family hired h. Clay Jackthe second for my feel attorney. And
this guy, actually he never didanything for me. He charged my family
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fifteen thousand dollars and didn't follow uppeople or nothing. He actually became a
judge. You know. He's ajudge in Compton, California. And it's
crazy because just recently his popped up. I've seen him on the news.
He has honorated to two guys forfor the same kind of crime. An
attempted murderer came back that these guyswent out the shooters and that the actual
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shooter confessed while in prison. SoI was kind of tripping out on that.
But yes, back in two thousandand seven, H Clay Jack he
gets a hold of William and atthe time, William is living in Kansas.
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I'm not sure if it's Kansas City, Kansas or Kansas, Missouri.
I'm one hundred percent, but itwas Kansas, and he had he uh,
he pays an investigator to set upa one on one interview, right,
So they set up an interview withWilliam, and they recorded both through
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video and through audio. And H. Clay Jack he's on the phone and
he's interviewing William. So I'm gonnago ahead and read to you the telephonic
interview of William Tobar by H.Clay Jack. The second attorney in law,
says Jack, starting off, Okay, my name is Clay Jack and
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her present louis Salinas, and Iwanted to talk to you about an incident
that occurred, I believe January twentyninth of two thousand and five. Do
you recall that? William says,yes, sir, okay, and that
and I'm in Los Angeles. Ibelieve you're in Kansas. Is that correct?
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That's correct? And you're president withan investigator on my behalf. Her
name is Terry Murray. Is thatokay with you? That she's president?
Yeah, that's okay. And alsoshe's going to record this interview. Do
we have your permission to do so? Yes? You do? All right,
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now, could you please spell yourname state and spell your name for
us. Please, It's William W. I L L I A M.
Towar T O V A as inVictor A. R. And your date
of birth please is January thirtieth,nineteen eighty two. And what is your
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current address? Import of Kansas sixsix eight old one. Now, with
respect to this interview, has anybodyforced or burned you to get you to
submit to this interview? No,sir. Has anybody contacted you and told
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you what to say in this interview? No, sir. All right,
Now I'm gonna go through not onlywhat you your your testimony in in two
trials I think one was from twothousand and five and one was from two
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thousand and six. Do you recallthat, yes, sir, okay.
But I'm also going to ask youabout statements that you made to the police,
why you made them, and andand things like that you understand,
yes, sir okay. Now,at first, on January twenty nine,
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two thousand and five, it wasabout three o'clock in the morning, Uh,
that you were at the Reds yourresidence. Huh? Is that yes?
Yes? Yes? All right?And someone or someone or some or
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or more than one person approached you? Is that correct? Uh? No?
It was only one person that Irecall, and uh, yeah,
that's that's what that's correct. Onlyone person okay, and this one person.
Approximately what time was it? Icould say, like around one between
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one and three in the morning,okay. And where were you with someone
at the time? Yeah? Iwas. And who were you with with
a friend? His name is anAngel is his last name Ramos? Yeah?
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Okay? And uh were you ina car or a truck? Yeah?
I wasn't a pickup truck. AndI asked, pinched, okay,
what color white? All right?Now? At that morning, describe for
us or tell us what happened whenyou said this one man approached Well,
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like, like I said, Idon't I don't recall that much because I
was on the under influence of alcoholand jobs. But I do remember someone
approaching me, knocking on my windowand me leaning forward and opening that window,
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and I just seen somebody with agrave sweater, and he told me
where I was from, and Itold him, and I just remember he
taking a gun and I remember seatingthe gun. It was a revolver and
he just started shooting at me.And all right, well, let let
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me break that down. Okay,Now you said you. There was only
one person that approached. He approachedyou, or he approached your friend.
No, approached me, all right. And when the person approached he was
by himself. Is that correct thatI seen? Yes? All right?
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Now, can the best you candescribe him? Please? I can't.
I cannot describe because it was toodark. He was wearing a hoodie and
like I said, I was reallydrunk and under the under the drugs of
influencer, so I cannot describe him. It's like when I went to court,
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you know, they told me theyhad a person there that supposedly that
was the person who shot me,and I told the DA I told him
that that's not the person who shotme because I don't know who who was
it. I didn't see the Ididn't see the face. So how you
expect me to point at somebody,you know, and I don't even know
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who it was. I can't.I can't do that, sir. You
know, I'm not one hundred percentsure that was that person, So you
know, I don't. I don'tget the part where they don't get that,
you know. Okay, Well,what I want to ask you,
is it now? Now from whatyou remember about the person that knocking on
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your window? What do you callhim? Wearing a gray hoodie sweater?
And I think he was wearing somegray sweats I think. And all I
remember she was like he was nota tall person. It was like a
medium person. Yeah. I can't, I can't recall no more. Okay.
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And and you saw a gun,yeah I did. And what did
the gun look like like? AI think it was a revolver, not
a big gun, small gun.I think it was a thirty eight.
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Okay, you think it was athirty eight? Yeah, because I think
that's now. How because when Igot to the hospital and they told me
because they they found a bullet in, I think the bullet was a thirty
eight revolver. Well, let meask you this, did you this gun?
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Are you familiar with guns at all? Not really, sir? Okay,
So when you say it's a thirtyeight, what are you basing that
on? Because that's what they toldme on the hospital. They told the
police told you something, or thedoctor told you something. That doctor about
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the thirty eight. The doctor Okay, Now, the person he came to
your window, or he came tothe passenger side window of the truck,
the passenger side, and so yourolled that window down, yes, sir,
And what what was said to youonce you rolled the window down?
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Where are you from? All right? And how did you respond? I
told him I'm from MS. Andwhat you said, I'm from MS?
That that stands for a gang?Yes, sir? What gang does that
stand for? All right? Andyou were a member of that gang back
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then? Yes, sir? Areyou a member of that gang? Now?
No, sir. That's why I'mmoving over. I live here in
Emporia, Kansas because I got awayof all that. I got my family
now, I got my kids.So you know that's that was eight years
ago, sir. You know youleft gang life behind. I left gang.
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I left gang behind, sir.It's not worth it. It was
just something that I was. Iwas young, and I was not thinking
right and because of that accident mademe open up my ida a lot and
realized that life is special, man. Life, life is valuable and there's
a lot of things you could doin life besides doing what I was doing.
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All right? Thank you? Now, you said you had been drinking
and also you took some narcotics thatnight, Is that right? That's right,
sir? What did you have todrink malt liquor Mickey's, and and
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what kind it was Nicky's. It'sa green bottle in forty earls. Do
you know how much you drank?Had to drink? I just know I
had a lot, sir. Imean I was celebrating my birthday, you
know, so I was partying andso your birth your birthday was the day
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before. Yeah, okay, Andyou said you had some nicardics. What
what kind of drugs did you take? I was doing a marijuana. I
was doing a rock crack. Thatwas pretty much it. Okay. Now
I want to discuss with you thefirst child you testified him, which was
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in old five. Do you recallthat, yes, sir? And you
were in custody at the time,is that right? Yes, sir?
What were you in custody for violationof probation? And when you were to
court for the trial? Do youwant to be there? Uh? No.
They actually subpoened me and they forcedme to go. I had no
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choice to go. I mean,okay, why didn't you want to go
to court? I didn't want tobe a part of all this this thing.
I mean it had been already theytold me they had they had arrested
the guy that supposed he did this. So I was I was not really
familiar with us coring on. SoI was like, man, I don't
want to deal with all that.And before the second trial, when you
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were president in corn it wasn't atrial, but you were the court,
and they said that mister Sells lookedback at you and said, I'm going
to call you. Do you recallthat? No, sir, all right,
And then you even testified. Yousaid that mister Sinna said to call
him. He's going to call me. That's how he testified. Now did
I at any point in time beforethe sect the child, did miss let
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us turn around and say anything toyou? No, sir, Okay,
now you you testified as well thatin the county jail, everyone knows where
you live, they know your phonenumber, they know who your parents are.
They say that I said that.Okay, pardon they said that I
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said that. Yes, that's incorrect. Why would I say something like that.
Well, I don't know, butI read it in the transcript.
No, man, they got allthat messed up. Man, that's not
true either. That's not true.Okay, let me see if there's anything
else I don't think I have anyother questions, So do you have any
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questions of E like, I like, just one one is, you know,
I would like to help, andI'm doing this, you know,
to help you guys. But itoffends me. It gets me that they
actually had said so many things likethat that they're actually not true. You're
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upset with the police and the DAoh yeah, oh yeah, their statement
because all that is just bullcrap,you know, okay, honestly, And
then not only that, but itstresses me out because they're taking my time.
I got a family now, man, I got five kids, I
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got my wife. You know,I don't have time for things like that.
You know, I don't have timefor things like that. You know,
that's just wasting my time. WhenI already had said plenty of times,
I do not know who shot me. I don't know how you expect
me to point at somebody that ison the stage. I don't that that
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that they did something to me.I don't know, and that aggreates me
a lot. All right, well, let me ask you this. You're
saying you don't know who shot you. The person that mister Sims, the
one that was in court where youtestify a two times? Is it I
don't even know him. I didn'teven know that person. Pardon I said,
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I don't even know Salima. Okay, but I'm talking about the guy
that the defendant that was in court. Not not that you know him personally,
but you saw him in court,right, yes? Yes, okay.
So are you saying that it wasnot him the person that shot you?
That is correct? Or you justdon't you don't recognize the person who
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shot you. I don't know thatperson. I never seen a face,
so you know. Okay, soyou never saw a face, so you
you weren't in a position to saythat it was mister Simulas that shot you
exactly. Is that what you're saying? Yes, okay, I think that's
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unfair. You know, how canyou blame somebody for something like that?
I mean, I put myself inhis shoes, you know, and it's
like I will feel bad, youknow, somebody's you know, I didn't
do nothing wrong, and then theirpoint their pointing fingers at me, telling
me, oh yeah, I youknow, you're the hushai. You know,
I put myself in his shoes man, And and that's not that's not
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right, that's wrong man, weall got our rightness. Okay, well,
sir, I appreciate you talking tome, Miss Murray. Yes,
okay, I'm done. Now I'mgonna you record everything. I am gonna
ask that you hold for a momentso I can check. I think it
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might have shut down at a certainpoint, so I need to make sure
before we try this up that everythat you got everything. Okay, okay,
I'll hold on. But you testifiedthat right, that's right, and
that was because you had a probationalrelation or something like that. That's correct.
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Okay. Now you didn't want tobe in courtant, is that right
exactly? Why not? Because Iwas fed up with everything I was as
I feel like they were pressuring meto say things that I was supposed to
say, you know, and youwere also then you you said that did
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anyone come up to you? Andyou said you did recall you. You
also said that you came out withyour friends from the department and you just
parked the trunk and the only thingI remember was I was inn ambulance.
Yes, sir, okay, butyou remember a little bit more than that,
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right, um? Not really?Well? You remember you you sent
earlier today that it was only oneperson approached you, that's correct, and
that the person had on a graysweatshirt or a gray hoodie. Right,
that's correct. All right. Now, you also said in the first chould
that you were a drunk and youdidn't remember a whole lot. Is that
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right? That is correct? Okay. Now, the DA asked you when
you in the first chould that youtold the police that you were sitting in
your friends Angel's car when two individualsapproached you on foot. You said you
didn't recall. But is there twoindividuals or one INDs of it that opposed
you? One sir? One?Yeah? Okay. Now, Also you
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said that the in the in thethat you were asked telling the police that
the person that pulled out the gunand fired at you twice, that you
didn't recall that either. Is thattrue? You were also asked that do
you remember while you were in theambulance being shoulder in an individual in the
in the back of the ambulance,and as to tell police whether or not
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that person had anything to do withthe shooting. You said, you recall
that? Is that true? That'scorrect? Okay? So my question is
did they have someone that in lineup for you to look at or you
just don't recall that they did.They remember they bought me to a room
and they had like a couple ofpeople standing there. But I, like,
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I said, how you expect meto identify somebody that I didn't recall
seeing their face. I don't rememberlooking at their their their facial How how
you explain? How you how youexpect me to say, yeah, that's
that's the person who shot me.You know I can't do that, sir.
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That's Lyne. Okay. So youyou remember the police bringing somebody over
to the ambulance, but you saidyou don't make an identification. Is that
what you're saying. No, that'snot correct. I don't remember nothing in
it all. I thought you said. I thought you said somebody they brought
somebody over to the ambulance. No, okay, I'm sorry. Now.
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Also, the day asked you,do you remember identifying someone saying that's him,
that's the motherfucker that shot me.No, and you say you didn't
recall that. No, that isall false statements, sir. And see
all these statements from the police.And that's what I'm really upset, man,
because these people just made up shit. Man, okay, and and
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I feel bad, man for thisindividual, because man, they're trying to
lock up some person who didn't donothing. Man, and I feel for
that person. You know. That'sthat's that's messed up, man. Okay.
Also, while you were in thehospital, they asked you, did
you tell a detective Arona that youhad already identified the bad who shot you
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and you already identified him when youwere in the ambulance and you didn't want
to if he else to do withthis case, that you denied making that
statement. So is that is thattrue that you didn't tell that to a
detective Corona while you were in thehospital. I haven't spoke to nobody.
No, that's that's incorrect. Okay. At the time you testified, were
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you at all afraid of being asnitch or a rat? No? Why
what for? Okay? Now,on cross examination and the first child,
you you testified that you did notsee the person in court who shot you.
Is was that the truth that Idid not what you didn't when you
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were in court at the first child? Huh? You were asked on cost
examination whether or not you see theperson in court who shot you, and
you said you didn't see the personwho shot you. That is correct,
all right? So were you beingtruthful when you said that? Oh?
Yes, okay? And see anythingelse here, It's hard to see where
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I was, okay. Also,there was an officer who interviewed you,
and that person testified that this isbefore you you get to the hospital,
and he said that you told himyou were on your way home, but
you said you were already at them. You weren't on your way home?
Is that true? No, Iwas already in my house, okay.
And then it says where you parkedin front, met with an art acquaintance
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and had a brief conversation. Isthat true? Nope? Okay. The
officer also said you said you wereapproached by two million Hispanics and one of
them said, where you fung?Is that true? That's incorrect? Okay,
you were only approached by one that'scorrect. Okay. Now. A
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person also said that being brought misterSelene's over to the to the to the
ambulance, and you said, that'shim, that's the motherfucker that shot me.
No, sure, okay, okay. And also that detective of Rolla
testified that in the hospital that yousaid that you had already identified the person
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at the scene and you didn't wantwant to go along with any further with
the fourth process. Now you've alreadysaid that that that didn't happen. Is
that correct? That's not correct?Okay. Also, you went to a
lineup, is that right? Yes? And when you went to the lineup,
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you looked at all six people.Yes, And after looking at all
six you weren't able to identify anybody. Is that right? That's right?
Okay, Okay, I think that'sit. Uh, Miss Murray. Now,
what what you do have is thatyou remember me talking about the second
child? Is that correct? Right? And I believe he won this one.
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When I when I said you wereasking him about drugs, when you
just questioned him about what's good?Because I don't think I got that.
But also it was the first timethat you had asked you know, what
he was on those I'm not sure. And I want to make after that
when it says about the try firsttrial in two thousand and five, about
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of that he was, but whathe had to drink and what Okay,
I can ask him again, right, and while he was in the truck
what happened? Then? I justwant to make sure that we did get
that, okay, that at thetime you were you were in the white
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truck, that you had been drinking. Is that right? That's correct?
What did you had? What hadyou had to drink? Mate? Lapor
is called Nikki's. Do you knowhow much you had to drink? No?
I don't I know. I hada lot though, okay. And
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because you were celebrating your birthday,that's correct. Also you had you had
some narcotics. That it's correct.And what kind of narcotics had you taken
that evening? I was doing marijuanaand I was doing a rock crack cocaine,
all right. And so at thetime this person opposed you and you're
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in the white truck, you wereunder the influence of alcohol and drugs.
Is that correct? That is correct? All right? Now, you said
that I believe earlier that there wasa person, your friend Angel Rummels,
wasn't right at the truck, butthen he was about twenty feet away from
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you. Is that right? That'scorrect, And that somebody came It was
only one person came over to thewindow and knocked on the window. Is
that right, that's correct? Tellus tell me again what that person was
wearing. The best you can recallhe was wearing a gray hoodie like with
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some gray pants. Okay, nowdid you see gun? Yeah, describe
the gun? It was a revolveror thirty eight? I think? Okay.
Now you know a difference between yourrevolver and uh semi automatic. Yes,
I do. Okay. A revolveris like the gun that that the
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cowboys would use. What does right? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, that
that one that speaks yeah okay,and then uh, the semi automatic is,
uh that's automatic. You use themagazine and you know the bullets through
the to the bottom through the handle, right exactly. That's correct. Okay,
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So you remember it being a revolver, that right? Yes, sir.
Now, you you said you thinkit was a thirty eight? What
do you what do you base thaton? Uh? That's what the doctors
told me when I was when theylet me go, when I got discharged
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from the hospital. So the doctorstold you they thought it was a thirty
eight that you got shot by.Correct, That is correct? Okay?
All right, miss Murray. Isthere the detail on from the twenty feet
from the from where his friend wasstanding, he mentioned, but also about
the if he remembered if he hadgot if he had got shot, or
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anything like those questions you had askedhim or okay, uh, when when
did the person that had apposted thecar? Did they opposed the driver's side
or the passenger side? No,it was the passenger side. Now you
roll down your window, that iscorrect, a passenger side window, that
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is correct. And so when theperson shot, where was the first shot
fire threw from through the window?Okay, through the open has new window
exactly. And the second shot wherewas that fire for? Like I said,
like I said, they said,it probably went through the through the
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hood, through the engine, throughthe dashboard and it hit me. Okay,
Now one bullet hit the first bullethit. The first bullet hit you
were on the side, like onmy waist, your waist, yes,
okay. Where did the second bullethit you? How can I say it?
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It's kind of close to my privatepart, but it's on my leg
okay, close to your growing area? Yes, okay. Now when the
man and was shooting at you,where was your friend Angel? He was
at the like on the on thesidewalk on the garage to go inside the
building. Okay, And you thinkthat's about twenty feet away from where where
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I was at the trump Yes,sir, okay, all right, does
Murray anything else he needed? Thetime from when he got shot and from
when he drove away into the ambulance. That probably that part probably needs to
be in there for when the police. You know, the question is in
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regards to when the police officer pulledhim over, and uh, if anybody
came and you know, said,is this the person, this the suspect?
That that information? Okay, Ijust want to make sure all that
hin there. So okay, misterTower, when you were using when you
were being shot at, you droveoff? Is that correct? That's correct?
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And at some point the police pulledyou over? Yeah, okay one,
And did the police have to helpyou out of the car? That
is correct? All right? Tellus what happened. What do you recall
after the police got you out ofthe car. What's the next thing you
recalled? I just recall an officerapproached me and put me out of the
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car, and they told me tohave a seat, and I wasn't able
to have a seat, so Ilaid back and I remember little part saying
to him, can I borrow yourtelephone for I can call my parents and
let them know what's going on.And he told me, nah, they
couldn't do that. And then Iwas telling him what's going on with the
ambulance, and like, well,you know what, you look pretty bad,
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man. I don't think you're gonnabe able to make it. I
don't think you're gonna be able tomake it. So they came and brought
it white sheet and they put itover me, and I told them,
what are you guys doing, man? You know why you guys are not
calling the ambulance. There's a hospitalon the corner right here. Why you
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guys ain't taking me there. They'relike, don't worry, man, the
ambulance is all on their way.So that's AT's see it. And then
the only thing that I remember wakingup in the hospital and when they were
doing they were doing the surgery,they were putting the oxygen. That's all
I remember all right now. Idon't remember the driving. I don't remember
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how where we went, what streetswe took. I don't remember nothing.
Okay, Now, when you're inthe ambulance, did the police bring somebody
over for you to identify? No, sir, did you tell the police
that him that's the motherfucker who shotme. Nope, Nope, that's false.
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Okay, while you're an ambulance,you're still feeling the you're you're in
pain from being shot, right,yeah, then you're still a drug right
Oh yeah, I was feeling thepain really bad. Okay, and you're
also still high right yet? Sure? Okay? Anything else you's learning?
(33:15):
No, that's it all right inthe store wart. I want to thank
you for for letting me talk toyou and interview you and allowing this murried
to record it. All right?Any questions? Oh yeah? So is
there gonna be anything more regardless ofthis, because I'm really faired with this,
and well, now what I wouldI would like to do now?
(33:38):
I will, I will appreciate,uh, what I'd like to do.
They're gonna send me a copy ofthis interview, okay, and then I'm
gonna put a declaration together and aboutwhat you have said, and I would
like for you to review it whenI send it to you and sign if
it's true. If any part ofit is not correct, I want you
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to indicate that, but I wantyou to if it's true, I want
you to sign it. Is thatokay, that's perfect, all right.
So that'll it'll take me a littlewhile to put this together, but that
that'll be the next time I contactyou, okay, all right, and
after that that'll be it as faras I'm concerned, all right, mister
(34:23):
Jack. When I send you thesevideos, if there is anything that is
missing and you need it from him, I will do that for you.
So it's just okay, just letme know that and I can get that
taken care of as soon as possible. Okay, okay, thank you,
Okay, all right, thank youthe stower, no problem, all right,
(34:44):
bye bye bye, And that's theend of recording. And this was
this interview was conducted on the twentyseventh of October two thousand and thirteen.
So I hired I hired a playin October of two thousand and seven,
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so this is actually six years,six years later. This guy was my
attorney, and he never did anythingfor me really except for this interview right
here. And it took him thatlong just to do that. But honestly,
I think that you know, whenwhen I when I got the er,
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when I got the actual transcript ofthe interview and I read it,
I kind of felt like like myattorney could have been more a lot more
more specific, you know, likea lot more like uh, he kind
of asked some questions and he didn'treally do no follow up like he's just
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heard you guys just heard everything.So you know, I kind of felt
like he could have done a lotmore, like a lot more follow up,
done into a lot more detail,you know that. You know,
William's kind of saying that he doesn'treally remember, but at the same time,
he probably doesn't really want to talkabout it either. And you know,
it's all about how you do theinterview, you know, if if
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you if you have a good uhuh like I guess, like a back
to forth, you know, wherethe guy opens up and starts talking.
So I kind of felt like maybethis guy didn't really he wasn't really that
uh that good man, like Ithink he could have been a lot a
lot better, a lot more,a lot more information would he could have
(36:36):
gotten a lot more info audib them, especially that there were some things that
he said and and mister Jake didn'tfollow up on them, you know,
mister Jake didn't ask more questions,like you know, when he starts talking
about how how these cops were kindof intimidating him and pressuring him, you
know, and you know how he'she's talking about all these they're lying and
stuff, and you know, there'sthere's a few things sparing. But yeah,
(36:59):
so this this is actually in twothousand and thirteen, you know,
and here we are ten years later, twenty twenty three, you know,
and and still on the same theythey weren't trying to listen, and they're
still not trying to listen, youknow. And now I have the actual
confession of Hector, And like said, uh, you know, I never
(37:22):
really expected Hector to confess, butyou know, I always always hoped that
at the end he would, hewould, you know, confess to it,
because you know, I've been hereall this time for nothing, you
know, and you know he wasout there, you know, I know
he did a lot of time thoughI know I had heard that he ended
(37:44):
up doing several years and he endedup being in the fans and all that
stuff. So I think finding hisconscious guy to him, look, telling
man, no trouble, I don'twant beef, man, I just want
vibes, big man like me.No need for behind. I got too
much lines one route, the datimon side, wrong moves, but they're
gonna ride to nom