Playful Regeneration with METAPHOR Jurgis Didziulis

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I put my work into this one sentence, which is
culture shapes culture, and it goes both ways. Beliefs and
behaviors shape our creative expression, and our creative expression shapes
our beliefs and behaviors. So it's very fluid.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to the Earth Mates Podcast. Together we explore how
to find your path from climate anxiety to community action
by asking who are you? Because just like any relationship
that matters, So get ready to be raw and real,

(00:39):
but also playful and silly with me Chief Relationship Officer,
Amber Peoples, as we discover what's possible through the lens
of the five Earth archetypes. Curiosity and subscription buttons highly encouraged.

(01:01):
Welcome my friend. Today, as we record this session, I
am above the forty fifth parallel and we are moving
into springtime. And what's kind of amazing about the planet
at this time here in the North is that we
are accelerating the amount of daylight we get by far
faster than any other time during the year. So today

(01:22):
alone we gained three minutes and eleven seconds worth of daylight.
Now to giving a census to why that's kind of astonishing,
is that when we look at the solstice times like
around December twenty first or June twenty first. The time
of daylight change is in mere seconds, like two or
three seconds, and so we are actually spinning and moving

(01:44):
and shifting on our axis very fast during the springtime.
So if it feels like spring and fall come fast,
it's because they do. And so what I want to
do is just presence, no matter where you are right
now as you're listening to this, no matter matter what
time of year it is right now that you're listening
to this, or if you're closer to the equator where

(02:05):
things stay more stable, I just encourage you to feel
into that relationship you have with daylight today and allowing
it into your eyes, allowing it onto your skin. And
I'm going to count silently inside my head to five
for us to have this moment to do that, and

(02:25):
so here we go. Thank you. Now, I'm delighted to

(02:46):
introduce you to our metaphor Earth archetype, Jurgis Didulis, who
is many time zones away from me experiencing this planet
from Spain, but over three years ago we met as
members of their Design Science studio cohort. During that time,
it was exquisite to watch his calling blossom into a

(03:08):
vibrant contribution Through facilitated song jams. He mixes his passion
for music and people to elevate, engage, and empower across genres, audiences,
and communities. Through his musical journeys called Flux, Jurgis reminds
us that we are active participants, intimately interconnected, and uniquely human,

(03:35):
just like our relationship with Earth. So I'm excited to
have him here today to talk more about the power
of regenerative music and a little bit about how we
both got here three years later. So welcome Jurgis. I'm
curious what your version of that story is.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Hello, Hello, That version is about right. It's so it's
so inter just thing when you hear someone introduce you,
you know, it's a little bit of what we've put
out in the world. It's a little bit about what
the other person interprets. But there's a whole journey behind it,

(04:13):
you know, And the journey sometimes is what really gives
so much context and on frames what we've become. Again,
it's always a dynamic process with its spring, summer, autumn, fall,
and this definitely has been a very long journey for me.
But I think it's been since one of those first

(04:34):
interactions I had with the artist which really inspired me
to reconsider what I do and understand the true power
of creativity and art in a social context. I think
it's been at least fifteen fifteen years, and so I'm
happy to get into this conversation and delve deeper into

(04:55):
into how creativity shapes our lives, not only the journey
our lives, the narratives, but also the lives around us
and how how we do create relationships. I mean, one
of the things that you started mentioning was the relationships
around us, and you know, how we relate to other people.
But again, as an artist, as creatives, all we do
is frame things and we create different perspectives, which in

(05:18):
my opinion is witchcraft of the highest order. And so
it's very nice to really talk about creativity and the
impact it can have. So I'm looking forward to it,
very excited.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Amazing. Yeah, and I really love that that that word journey,
you know, and even even an explanation. You started with
journey and then you took us on a little bit
of a journey, and that's that's what I think is
in particularly fascinating about you Jurgis is the way that
you present music is very much as a journey. I mean,
I think any musician feels that way, Like there's a

(05:47):
journey through the song, there's the journey through the performed
version of it, there's there's the experience of it. But
I think what was so fabulous during our time in
DSS was to see you blossom into using your musical
genius to host different events that extended over the course

(06:09):
of an entire day, where you provided these moments in
between for us to reconnect, re embody, integrate what just
happened into what was going on and doing it all
improv on the spot and connect us on this journey.
And so I think it was so beautiful to watch
how you blossomed within that in the last three years

(06:31):
have continued to really journey through this with with the
flux that that you've developed. And I know it was
there before, but it seemed like there was something during
DSS that really sparked for you. Is do you feel
that that's true and if so, what was that spark.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
It's funny with music is that we've we've become used
to music as a consumable, so we'll listen to a
song that was recorded that many years ago, and we
think that that's the song. I believe that music is
an incantation. It's spell casting of the highest order. It's
putting oneself, one being, one's consciousness in tune with an emotion.

(07:12):
And then if you do it collectively, collectively and train
that emotion to create an aggregate feel, a vibe. And
so for me, it's it's almost the act of repetition. Repetition, repetition.
You do it over and over and over again, and
each time you do it over and over, you do
it in a different context. You learn new tricks. There's

(07:34):
something about again. Even if if I was in a
conversation with someone and I always repeated the exact same
thing the same way, it would get boring and lame.
Interesting how in music we like the repetition so much
that we know the song and we've gotten used to
the song should be just like this, even so much
so that if we hear another version of the song
where like, that's that's not right, and we start to

(07:55):
think that it's unfamiliar. But the truth of the matter
is that for a hundred of thousands of years, we've
been conveying a lot of complex information through song, through poetry,
through rhyming lyrics, and all kinds of things like this.
So the beautiful thing about DSS was that there was
a moment where I think there's two very beautiful things.
Is one is that something that I had been crafting

(08:17):
for so many years found itself in the field, on
the ears and in the hearts of people which have
like a like minded say bandwidth or belief system. And
then you can explore more freely. It's like almost like
as if you'd been masking conversations or speaking to some
people who don't fully understand what you're talking about. And

(08:38):
then for me, one of the narratives during those sessions
was that I really felt I was coming home and
speaking to my own And one of the things I
repeated constantly is like here you can be yourself. You
can express yourself as you are. You don't have to
sugarcoat it or you don't have to censor it. So
I think that was important. And I think also the

(08:58):
idea that we were doing it so intensely, and I
don't remember how many of these sessions we did, but
they were over. One of them was a week, the
other one was ten days long. If I'm not mistaken,
you just get better at it. So again, the principles
of resonance apply, where if you're in a field that
is that is sympathetic to the music to the emo,

(09:22):
where you're sympathetic to the emotion, the music will blossom naturally.
It's kind of like putting a seed in ripe soil.
And I think that's one of the best things about
the studio is that you meet people which confirm that
you're not mad, you're not crazy, that if you are crazy,
there's people who are just as crazy as you and

(09:43):
who believe in the same things as you do, which
is very refreshing, especially for many of us who have
operated as outsiders for so long and then all of
a sudden you find your own So it's a very
beautiful feeling. So I think that that obviously gives the
art for a lot more power and then feeling that
what you are conveying is striking resonant hearts. So that's

(10:10):
why I would say that that was a blossoming moment
for my craft.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
I love that, and I where it really aligns with
what I'm doing with the Earth archetypes is we start
with the acknowledgment that Earth is our home, and I
love that you use that term home too.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
There's something so settling about that word, and so connected
and grounded. And then I encourage people to discover their
Earth archetypes. And the reason I do that is not
to pigeonhole anybody that's far from the goal, but it's
to say a couple of things, which is, if you're

(10:50):
going what can I do when it comes to climate
issues and earth issues, the first step is to go, well,
who are you? What skills do you have? What ways
do you think in the world? And these archetypes help
with that, and they help you identify other people that
have used similar skill sets and similar practices to be

(11:12):
in connection. And then, as you hinted that, but I
don't know if you said explicitly, once you're grounded in that,
once you've had that expression through those ways that feel
really innate to you, then you can go out and
work with others that are different. And it's easier because
you can you're more rooted and grounded in the way
that you understand the world and can more easily and

(11:35):
maybe more fluidly offer the skills that you have to
people that are different, and so going talking about this journey,
one of the things about you as you're talking about,
you know, this moment three years ago that really cemented
this coming home, this sense of connection, the sense of resonance,

(11:57):
is that you've had this really interesting journey of political science,
of business, administration, of musical career that was more perhaps
what people think of, like there was Eurovision in there
and things like that. So how do you feel within
the earth archetype framework, those would be kind of be

(12:17):
in different categories, like the business and the poly side
would be kind of my network type. So I'm curious
how you feel like those were part of the journey
for you that do inform what you do today, but
also feel that there is perhaps this more of a
settling or more of a rooting because you found this

(12:37):
calling within music.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Well, hanging out with indigenous people and specifically the Kogis
and the artworkos in Colombia. They speak constantly about order.
You know, the universe has it order and everything knows
its place and that you know, stuff gets messy when
things are not in their place, you know. So they're

(13:03):
very much about stones being where they're supposed to be,
trees being where they're supposed to be. Even in the
food chain, every animal knows its place. And I kind
of believe that that that idea that we relate to
a tribe, we relate to the universe as well through
the way we serve. What are we here to perform?

(13:24):
I love the idea. You know, Alan Watts has a
beautiful saying. He says that the earth peoples, so it's
in our nature to be a human. But even if
we are human, then it's like, okay, well what are we?
You know, a doctor doesn't know he's a doctor, or
a medicine man doesn't know until they're healing. Storyteller is
nothing until they start, you know, casting tales. A musician

(13:48):
is nothing to the collective until they start singing or
sharing their songs. So the way that we serve the community,
the way that we help also make sense of this
kind of whole tapestry of that is reality, which is
which again I find it fascinating the more I get
into it. And I know there's a lot of people
like to talk about Joseph Campbell and the archetypes he's

(14:09):
put forward and that, and then you know that that
there's a whole idea that we only make sense of
reality through storytelling, or storytelling is the main way we
make sense of reality. I do. I do completely believe
that you know, the words that we attribute, the concepts
that we attribute, conjure the world we have around us.

(14:29):
So it's very important to know your place. And I
don't mean that in an arrogant way. I think that again,
a lot of people say that. I think it's a
or maybe it's a Buddhist thing which says that it's
a blessing to know to know your gift and then
how you share it with others. I think it's something
like that. Maybe I'm murdering this, uh that expression, but

(14:51):
I definitely do feel that that that a human beings
journey involves these to these two points where or aspects
where you discover what you're good at and then how
you can put it in service to other people. Ironically,
and in the DSS as well, lately, we're talking about
business as service SEVA. You know, like it's not about selling,

(15:11):
it's about serving. Then if you're serving, well, then you're
going to create value and people are going to appreciate it,
and you will create abundance around you because you will
be appreciated. But that requires knowing again what you're good
at and how you show up for other people so
that they feel appreciation and they receive value from what
you're creating for them. So funnily enough, I always loved

(15:34):
music because it was disruptive, even as a child. I
don't consider myself as much a musician as a person
who who subversively uses, misuses and plays with music. It
takes it out of it's you know, standard roles and
and and applications and just likes to be very kind of, yeah,

(16:00):
a bit of a misfit with it. But then that's
the exactly kind that's the exact kind of attitude that
then allowed me to kind of say, wait, these people
need to experience togetherness. Music can do that, and not
necessarily through the songs that I've written, but just by
like really tuning in to their needs and saying, ah,
these melodies, this feeling, this vibe will help, will help

(16:21):
conjure that sensation, that feeling. So I don't know if
I've gone too far or I've spoken too much, but
in essence, I just feel that it is really important
to know who we are, what we're good at, and
how we serve others, and that is what establishes our
place not only in a tribe, but I think also
if we believe that art and imagination and creativity is transcendent,

(16:45):
it also establishes our role as creators in the universe.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Thank you for that. So yeah, it really it sounds
like because the question started with you have this interesting
background to get into music with, with the different educational
practices you've done, and and that eventually led you to
the music. And it's and it seems like where you
landed in that journey was language that I've heard around,

(17:15):
Like there's a song that the a lyric goes longing
to belonged, longing to belong for you know, and and
this idea of belonging and and there's this amazing gentleman
who I as an elder, that I got to interview
for a podcast that focused on technologies of belonging in

(17:35):
connection and really emphasize this idea of cultures that when
somebody is born, there is this celebration of who will
they be and how will they belong And how exciting
is that to find out how they'll how they'll be
a part of our culture and our community. And I
and so I hear that the journey was this, this

(17:59):
journey for you of finding thats it was.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
It was a lot of hit of trial and error.
It was a lot of hidden miss I thought I
wanted to be on a big stage and have millions
of fans singing my songs, until I realized that that
really didn't make me happy at all. And it's a
very interesting one because if you talk about the archetypes,

(18:26):
there are archetypes that don't exist as professions, or there
are archetypes that don't exist as professions anymore. I love
the I consider myself a troupa door and this is
something I've only embraced very recently, because a troupa door
is a dead profession. You know, someone who would entertain
the court with their music. I know, not that's like, yeah,

(18:48):
you'd have witty poetry and all kinds of have you know,
kind of like little songs or verses. But it was
very much about being on the spot. So today we
have the stand up comedian, which is a bringer of
truth because it's only one of the only people who
can actually speak their mind without you know, risk of

(19:09):
libel is what you call it libel or or you know,
other forms of you know, getting in trouble. Basically, where's
the poet? Nowadays in society the poet is the copywriter,
you know, but or you know, somebody on Instagram it's like,
where is the poet? You know, where's the troubadoor? And
so so one thing is is that it you naturally

(19:29):
have to go through this journey to know who you are.
And I think as we live longer lives and we're
much more stimulated, we can we can you know, navigate,
you know, we can get tired of something and move
somewhere else. But I think increasingly we find that there
are I don't even know if archetypes is the right
word or professions is the right word. Let's say that
there are vocations, are calling callings that might just not exist,

(19:56):
and somehow we also have to carve out that niche
for ourselves. So for me, it was very much kind
of like trying this the same No, that's not that,
that's not it, that's not it, but maybe it's a
mix of these somewhere in between, and they go, ah,
this kind of works, this kind of works. And I
think that many of the most interesting and compelling artists

(20:16):
are people who have have really have transcended their genre,
because again, the genre is usually just there, so you
can create an industry around it. So country music sounds
like country music, R and B sounds like R and B.
Rock sounds like rock, so the marketers have an easier
time selling it, you know, to the to the to

(20:40):
the auditorium, to the segment that they want to hit.
But I think the question that even I I kind
of have is whether there are there are universal or
cosmological archetypes, which is again I don't know. You know,
some people don't like Joseph Campbell because they feel that
he frames everything in a certain way of thinking. But

(21:00):
even if we look at old mythology, there are archetypes everywhere.
So kind of like, what I wonder is whether there
are universal archetypes or whether they're all a construct of
certain societies or there are societal construct And I don't
have the answer to that, but I do think that
to truly find yourself you need to be ready to
push that envelope to discover new you know, to to

(21:23):
navigate new waters, and to not be scared to ask
yourself really difficult questions like am I really this is this?
Really fulfilling me. Is this really what I am? And
it's funny because even as we speak and I say
this is what I am, there's always a shadow of
doubt inside me. I'm always like, is that really who

(21:43):
I am? Is that really who I am? And I
question myself constantly, And I think that that's one of
the things that keeps you evolving, not saying that I
am as a given, as a known, but something that
you are discovering and reaffirming. Much as like I mentioned,
the doctor is a doctor or as long as he heals,
or the poet is a poet as long as he
has poetry inside. And the musician there is a musician

(22:06):
as long as they have joy. And if there is
no constant re exploration or practice, then that person is
not worthy of the title. So yeah, it's a it's
a complicated one.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
It is, and it's and it's intended to It sounds
like for you there's joy in the fact that it's complicated,
or that there's fertile ground there to continue to explore.
It feels like there's there's a joy there around that.
Would you say that that's true?

Speaker 1 (22:41):
I think that I love mischief. I love comedy. I
love I love playfulness. I don't like it when things
keep too still still. And then again I mentioned Alan
Watts before, but I really loved his vein of spirituality
because it was so playful. It was, you know, there's
no there's no absolute truth. There's always caveats and exceptions,

(23:02):
and there's always reversals. And the more a person is
has a conviction that things are like this, it's like,
but actually, you know, you know, it's like, no, no,
I'm very steadfast, and you're like, but you know, maybe.
And I love that playfulness because again, returning to the
whole archetypes, it's like, wow. As I explored the the Troubadour, uh,

(23:25):
one thing a friend brought up says, he said that
the Jester or the Troubadour, I think it's the Jester
or the joker, is the is the only one in
the arcana, in the arcana or within that within that
framing of of of of archetypes that has social mobility.
It's the only one who can, you know, talk to

(23:46):
the king and then you know, hang out with the
plebes and then hang out with the other people. It's
the only person who can actually kind of like to
navigate the world. And and and I believe personally that again,
the essence of chemical transmutation is emotional. Is to take
something that is that is very serious, something that that

(24:09):
demands reverence, and make it light and happy. To take
something which is very sad and make it comforting. To
take something that is very certain and solid and kind
of sprinkle it with a little bit of doubt. And
I kind of feel that that is what keeps the

(24:31):
universe moving and shifting and changing. I think there's also
a reason why I call what I do flux at
the moment, because it basically is constant change. It's like
we're not looking for for for concrete age old recipes
for music. We're just looking for approximations. We're having fun

(24:53):
with it. We're not taking ourselves too seriously in the
in the process. So, so I do believe in the mischief,
and I feel the misshift and the playfulness is super necessary.
Otherwise this would be so dull.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
I agree. One of the things that so I do
actually do copywriting, and one of the things that I
emphasize a lot, is because there's a lot of levers
you can pull, and some I refuse to pull because
I think that the manipulation tactic behind it is not beneficial.
But the one that I love to push as much
as I possibly can is curiosity because that will hook people,

(25:30):
and that will get them leaning in, and that will
get them wanting to know more. And sometimes it'll even
get them thinking they know what it is and they
want to see if they're right. See you maybe dangle
them a little bit and then perhaps they are, perhaps
they get surprised. And I think where this transitions us
that I want to make sure we spend some time on,

(25:51):
is this idea that was the foundation of DSS. We've
talked a lot about the artistry of DSS, but we're
actually talking Buckminster Fuller when we talk DSS, and he
did have an artistic bent to him, but that wasn't
his primary mode of operation. He was an inventor, he
was an engineer. He worked in these realms that were

(26:13):
more within the network archetype. And as we look at
you talked a lot about change, and we know that
the ultimate change we have in front of us as
a human species for the next several decades is the climate.
And so this is where I want to bring us
back to because that's actually where DSS is founded in

(26:33):
is as we look at the world that we have
ahead of us, how do we use artistry as a
tool as a practice to help us with the upcoming changes?
And so I know that you are actively working on
that with a regenerative farm that you're on, but I
would love to hear more about what is it that

(26:55):
you're learning around how music is a regenerative practice that
can actually help us through these potentially dire challenges we
have in front of us.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
This idea that we can shape reality through the stories,
through the narratives, I think is fascinating. And my whole
thing is that through music is you create a Eureka
moment where you say, okay, well there's no structure here,
We're just flowing. And as people flow with the music,
they realize that, wait, there's something holding us together. So
I love music as a metaphor. Music is a metaphor

(27:27):
for beautifully flowing society or a beautifully flowing tribe. And
in that metaphor you kind of there's a moment where
you realize it's like, wait, we have this innate way
of entering, you know, harmonic coherence, very much like the
birds you know, there's murmurations or there's schools of fish

(27:48):
and how they all move in a certain movement, and
basically what we realize is that these are high trust environments.
Now that's at a biological level. When people start singing, chanting,
articulating their aspirations, I personally think that that's something that's
the engineering of prayer already. You know, when we all
as a collective kind of focus on something and say, yes,

(28:10):
this is what we all want, and without giving any
attention to the esoteric or metaphysical implications of that. As
a community building exercise, it's tremendously powerful. Think of sports,
think of concerts, think of political parties. There's a reason
why the Third Reich did as good as it did

(28:31):
because they had some very smart people telling people how
to dress, how to you know, true true march, you
know all their symbology, how to raise their hands and
prove that they're part of the pack. So we've got
this deep inside us, and I find that it's a
bit foolish on our behalf to talk about six systems
change without addressing cultural change, because I do believe that

(28:54):
our imagination, our beliefs precede any stemic massive systemic change.
Any marketer will tell you need to want something before
you're going to buy it. You need to really feel
compelled to change something before you change it. So I
think that we've got it. We've got it as backwards.
You know, we're trying to change systems without saying, way,

(29:15):
how do we change ourselves? And at the beginning of
our conversation, you mentioned the whole thing about relationships, and
my whole thing is about let's change relationships. Let's change
our relationship with one another, you know, let's let's how
do we change that? How do how do we become
more human? How do we change our relationship with Mother Earth?
How do we refer to her as a as an
animate being? How do we start thinking of water as

(29:37):
something that is alive? And how how does that affect
my behaviors? And these small changes in belief is actually
what kind of propel us into new reality. There's people
who think the cell phone was invented by Motorola, the
people at ericson it was actually I think it was
as like Asimov from the writers of Star Trek, who said, way,
wouldn't it be great if there's a little thing where

(29:58):
you talk, and we could talk this, and then all
of a sudden, people's people's imagination is there. They're like,
we need that object, and so all the technology fills
in the cracks, and so in the design science studio,
one of the beautiful things is that again the artist
was recognized as a conjurer of reality, and collectively, in

(30:21):
this act of co creation, we can we can build
these new worlds, which again, and I really do believe
in this, the quality of our realities can only be
as good as the quality of our imagination. So the
better the imagination, the better, the better prospects we have
of creating something beautiful. If we can't create beautiful music,

(30:42):
beautiful art, beautiful architecture, beautiful poetry, then society can't even
strive to get there. But in essence, creatives do have
an imperative leadership role. And climate change is nothing more
than the manifestation of an inflammatory process which has been

(31:02):
brought about by our poor relationship with Mother Earth. And
if we want to address that issue, then we need
to start by addressing the relationships, and the best way
of doing that is through creative approaches.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
What I find interesting though about the creativity piece is
I do see all of the archetypes as creative, even
if there's someone who is very precise in what they do,
like they're the traditional scientist where they're setting up the
controls and all of the pieces so that there's only
one variable so they can test that variable. There's actually,

(31:34):
in my head, a lot of creativity that goes into that,
but it's just a different style of creativity. It's a
different sense of the questions we're asking. And you hinted
on that when you're like, well, if a song, you
know I of a river makes a noise, what is it?
Is definitely a different hypothesis, so to speak, than like
isolating a certain chemical within that river or perhaps even

(31:58):
sound of that river. You know, science is actually on
the cutting edge of how sound can actually help us
regenerate choral or bring back pollinators. Like, there's interesting things
happening there too. So I'm curious for you when you
kind of honed in on this sense of creativity and imagination,
what do you think is the element there that is

(32:19):
unique to the artist, the person who understands the world
in metaphors. What do you think is unique to that
and how that helps us as we as we face.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
Chris, I like to make a distinction between a creative,
an artist, and an artisan. So an artisan is an
artist as a person is a creative who feels they're
serving a higher purpose and they feel that this is
there they are, they are in full sovereignty of what

(32:55):
they're offering, and this is what they're offering, and this
is this is art and you should take it for
what it is. And whether it's Picasso or Banksy or
I don't know, the Beatles or something, or it's saying no,
this is what we want to put forward, and this
is what we want to express. I relate more to
an artisan, which is a person who's serving others through
their craft, like more like a shoemaker or you know,

(33:17):
a hired musician. What do you need, let me, let
me serve you. But the interesting thing is that behind
it there's there is the creative, and the creative implies
that they are creators. And I love this idea that
we are cosmic consciousness and witnessing that we are all God,

(33:38):
or we are all a fraction of Godly consciousness, getting
a perspective of what is around us. You know, and
and and and before you're a creator you are a spectator,
You're you're observing, You're like, wow, isn't this beautiful? Behold nature.
But the moment that you have agency and you can
change something, you become a creator. Whether it's just like

(34:00):
I can cut down that tree and I can build
something now that may seem that may seem like something
quite crude and primitive, but that required envisioning. That required
you taking figment of your imagination, putting it to work,
and saying I can take that matter and transmute it
into something else. I can turn a into b And

(34:23):
I think the best example of this was I can't
tell you who built the Pyramids, but I can tell
you that they were a vision in the mind of
some intelligence before they ever came to be. Which, again,
any expression of creativity, whether it's a whether it's a
chemical process, whether it's a poem, whether it's a car,

(34:45):
whether it's a I don't know anything, any object, it
begins with the ideas that I could turn this into that.
And for me, that is the essential divine gift.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
When we look at the power of metaphor, of music,
of art to take action. Uh, you talked about this
spectator to createor I'm really curious how we can apply
that again to the concept of climate change, uh, and

(35:17):
how we move from that place of stuck to action.
Part of the reason I'm really curious to ask you,
jergis is I know that you're doing this right now
when you're on the farm and you're trying to understand
how is your music different when you're doing it from
the lens of I want to do this in a
regenerative way. How is it that you're seeing that creation,

(35:42):
that development, that change being something that can can provide
an opportunity for other people to go, Oh, I can
try that too.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
The curious thing with with with the regenda, you know,
the generative thing is that is that as we gave
a name to the shift, to the revolution or to
the you know what is going to help us pivot
into a new reality, it was up to anyone and
everyone to say what that was or what that is,
the same way that democracy is no longer what it

(36:16):
meant to the Greeks, or a constitution is no longer
a constitution or a republic has a very different meaning.
It's like we don't know because it's it's always really
iterative and it's changing. It's up to the artists to
step up and say, you know what I can I
can give an expression of that. I'm going to give
it a shot. And the beautiful thing is that is that,

(36:37):
as human beings, we copy one another when there's an
idea that's resonant. When we hear someone singing the way
we like, we will sing like that. When we hear
someone speaking the truth or truth that resonates with us,
we will start repeating it, which is very much at
odds with the with the the ip culture we're in
where everybody protects their intellectual property and no, this is mine,

(37:00):
and this lyric is mine, and this chord structure is mine.
And that's not the way humanity works. Humanity works by
mimicking and bolstering the best expressions, and fashion is a
great example of this. You can't patento anything in fashion.
You know, if somebody caught onto a trend early and
everyone imitates you the next year, that is actually that's

(37:24):
a nod. It's like, Wow, that guy or that girl
knows exactly where it's going, knows exactly where it's flowing.
And I think that kind of idea of having a
high trust environment where we copy each other freely. And
that's one of the things we're doing with Flux is
that it's not that I'm designing a new genre or
a new kind of musical format. Is that we're playing

(37:45):
with it and we're learning, and so people come and
they discover new things about musical structure, about listening, about
even how to hook up the equipment. And it's not
something that I say, no, this is mine and I'm
not going to share this with you. It's like, no,
we're sharing it because because regenerative is all about horizontal
cooperation and in a high trust environment, that's what this

(38:06):
creative expression looks and feels like. So for me, it's
all about metaphors that become synesthesic in a way where
everything starts, you know, where the architecture sounds a certain
way and the food is like poetry. The value start
permeating and percolating in such interesting ways that I feel

(38:30):
that first you need a lot of trust to just surrender.
And then the thing that we're fighting the most is
that the traditional economic system of protecting my intellectual property,
protecting my brand, putting myself above above others, saying I'm
the ship, I'm the beas knees and you people have

(38:51):
no idea what you're doing, and therefore you should buy
for me or you should take my interpretation of art.
It's completely at odds, right, So as we navigate into
this new kind of world, of of of creative possibility,
I think trust is is very important, trust in and
and faith in the process. I don't know if that's

(39:15):
completely off the rails, but it kind of it. It
implies a different way of doing art. I mean, that's
the beautiful thing about a genre that someone discovers something
interesting and everyone's like, yeah, if Jimi Hendrix plays his
guitar like that, I want to play the guitar like that,
or if I want to do I want to do that.
But then also having the impetus to also to also,

(39:38):
you know, develop your thing with your vision with enough,
with enough bravery. It becomes a bit it becomes a
bit troubling because because it has a bit of both.
It has a bit of of believing in oneself entirely
and one's artistic vision, but also understanding and surrendering to

(39:58):
the idea that it's a collective process that other people
have to understand the genius and they have to love
it as well, and that if they pick it up,
you're gonna have to give it up. It's no longer
going to be yours. It's ours.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
What's interesting that some dots that are connecting in my
head is the behavior science proves, and we're seeing it
in climate studies. We're seeing it even in voting studies.
It was move on to the study to figure out
what was the most motivating thing to get people to
the polls. It wasn't the ads they were running, it
wasn't the knocking on the doors. It was one thing

(40:32):
that climate science is also proving, which is, if your
friends expect you to do it, you will do it.
You will go vote, you will go take this climate action.
That's proving to be the number one thing. And so
I'm hearing that a little bit in what you're saying.
The other science that I'm hearing is the science of emergence,

(40:52):
where you have these let's say, two things for simplicity,
and they're doing their thing, and all of a sudden
they come together and then we have chaos, and the
chaos is a necessary step, and then all of a sudden,
at a certain point that is kind of unexplainable if
we were if this chaos was being drawn on a
graph on a piece of paper, all of a sudden,
It's is if the pen that is drawing that takes

(41:14):
a leap off the paper and jumps to this new
evolutionary state and Na's emergence. And the thing that I
think your share just connected for me is the element
of trust within all of that. Trust in yourself, trust

(41:34):
in the emergence, trust in your friends, trust in the experience. Uh.
And so there's there's something about that word that I
think what you're touching on really really illuminates as a
key piece of once again going back to this question
of what can I do, it's how do we how
do we bolster people with a sense of trusting we

(41:59):
can figure it out.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
I love the idea that that trust is selfish selflessness
or selfless selfishness where the boundaries of the me and
the wei become very fuzzy. Where you're doing things for
others is if you do them for yourself, or you're
doing things for yourself as if you do them for others.
I think I think that's the beauty of it, that

(42:22):
it's not for me. It's like for me, the purpose
of beautiful music is not so that people say, hey,
I'm amazing, it's the beautiful music, so we all feel amazing,
you know. And the more that we expanded, the better
it is. Now. There's two very subversive, i would say,
kind of approaches that we have when it comes to this,
and the first one is that is that we try

(42:43):
to make the change irresistible. And that's one of the
things that we talk about with the with the other
regenerative hippies and entrepreneurs and do gooders here on the island,
is that that has to be resistible. That has to
be super cool. It's not something you have to do.
It's something that it's like, that is so cool. I
want to do that. It's like, how are those people gathering,

(43:03):
how are they dressing? What music are they listening to?
I want that, you know. I think that's super important
and and and I think that that's that's in it.
In a world where everything has been so imperative, like
you have to change, it's got to happen that that
that that have to is not an obligation. It's just

(43:23):
something so delicious and so beautiful that no other option
is available. So so there is this beautiful moment of
Only art can do that. Uh, government institutions, non government
institutions can tell us can be very descriptive, this is
what we have to do, this is what we should do.
But creating irresistible visions of a future we wish to

(43:45):
pivot in into requires creativity. It requires vision and a
lot of very good storytelling, which is what we artists have.
So so I really again that's why I'm happy working
with these people here in Visa, because they're like, we
know the agriculture, we know the systems, but we need
to come up with a way that is so compelling

(44:05):
that nobody wants to read the manual. They just want
to get in and play with it and get in
on the action as soon as possible. And I think
that that's something very beautiful about the co creative process
is that is that nobody really knows how it's supposed
to go as you As you go into the unknown,
the only thing you're going to discover is something new.

(44:26):
It's something which you know, you know, you know what
it won't be like more than you know what it
will be like, and when you hit it, you'll know
because you go that sounds completely different and that's that's
actually one of the ways that music innovates. Somebody cranked
up their guitar and I'm too loud. It's like, we've
never heard that before. Or someone completely misused the synth
and is like, oh, that sounds amazing, or someone in

(44:47):
New York decided to to to to do something pornographic
with the turntables and as like, oh, that's exciting, you know.
So so in this idea of having that kind of subversive,
playful attitude and really again we returned to the subject
of trust. Really saying let's go forward without knowing where

(45:08):
we're going to get, I think is super necessary.

Speaker 4 (45:12):
So what I'm curious then, is within this drive to create,
this drive to innovate, this drive to imagine, I'm curious
where you feel like the element of reciprocity exists. I
heard it a little bit when you were talking about
the farmers, when they were talking about you know, we
have these systems to contribute, we have this soil to contribute,

(45:34):
we have this manual to contribute, and now we're seeking.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
A piece that we know that we're missing. And you
it sounded like you as the artist, get to build
through the reciprocity of what they've created there with the farm.
But I'm curious about, in this larger concept, our construct
of trust and imagination and change and mischief, how to

(46:00):
make sure that we're grounding that in reciprocity and not
just ongoing extraction.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
It's not so much about reciprocity in the sense that
I have to do for you what I would do
for myself, But it's serving serving the creation. There's a
saying I love is like that. When I'm playing music,
I'm not serving the people in the circle. I'm serving
the music. And when you serve the music, you're you're

(46:29):
elevating everybody's collective aspirations not to what is, but what
potentially could be. And I know that many people think
that that could turn into some form of artistic fascism
as well, where it's like, oh, like I have the vision,
everybody follow me. But again I don't. I don't. I
don't believe in absolutes. And usually when I say one thing,

(46:50):
there's always an inversion or there's a contradiction, but in
this case, it's it's it's there. There has to be
balance and the answer to the riddle. As a friend
of mine, says, is somewhere in the middle. It's like
where there is autonomy, but there's a lot of compassion,
where there's there's a lot of bravery, but there's also
there's also listening and empathy and consideration for others. And

(47:14):
I think that's one of the beautiful things about the
human experience is that is that you know you know joy,
you know pain, you know openness, you know being closed
and retracted. And it's being to explore all these things
in their depth and in their and in their most
extreme expressions is what leads to truly beautiful, uh and dynamic,

(47:37):
creative expressions. It's not it's in a way, I think
it's it's the moment that you try to oversimplify the processes.
You find that the simplification leads nowhere. Because it's beautiful
when it's complicated, it's not complicated. It's beautiful when it's complex,

(47:57):
it's beautiful when it's diverse, it's beautiful when it and
there's an element of mischief which makes you question everything
that you've said or that you believe in, And I
think that's what keeps things interesting. Again. I'm quoting Alan
Wats for the third time today. Which is a bit excessive.
The universe is just playing hide and seek with itself.

(48:19):
So this kind of whole process of thaying I got it,
I don't got it. I figured it out. No, approbably not,
you know, and even in science as Wellton figured it out,
and it's like, no, actually, there's quantum physics. And that's
again the beauty. It never ends, keep bubbling.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
We've been talking about this immense amount of beauty that
metaphor type folks can can bring to the world, can contribute,
can imagine, can act on. And you did touch on
this throughout different pieces where you're like, let's let's make
sure we're checking ourselves in this way or making sure
we don't go too extreme in this way over here.

(49:00):
But I'm curious, you know, every every type has what
we could call their superpowers, these amazing, beautiful things that
we've talked about. But then I think there is this
thing that we also want to make sure that we're human.
We're not perfect. We do have the spectrum between causing
joy and causing harm. And so I'm curious what kind

(49:21):
of things you notice that you just check in with
or have community help help check you so that you
you stay on this path that feels like truly is
a path of beauty.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
I would say that not taking yourself too seriously is
very good. Like and then everything, especially in the music,
we have beautiful moments of reverent, cosmic bliss and we
usually have to break the spell. But you know, just
don't don't don't take yourself too seriously. They they the

(49:58):
there is a trickster in the you universe, you know,
and and and and it doesn't. It's not that it doesn't.
There's something that doesn't want to be captured. There's something
that's always just outside of our grasp and and and
and that goes hand in hand with humility as well. No,
when people when people forget that, they're that their creative

(50:19):
gift does not make them the creator. So you're the
whole story of tech bros that go to you know,
go to the Amazon, try Auruasca and say, oh, I understood,
I'm God, And you're like, no, that's not exactly what
the lesson was supposed to be. You know, people who
and you lose the humility. And so I think that

(50:39):
those those are probably the most important things. Is that
is that really understand that in a sense we have
infinite power, and yet at the same time we're completely insignificant.
So so the people that I love hanging out with
and the people that keep me in check are all
people with fantastic sense of humor. There well accomplished, very

(51:02):
talented human beings that don't take themselves too seriously. They're
human beings that always feel they have something to learn,
that always check what they said, just to make sure
you know that everything is in you know, still resonant
and true and so but again that requires trust. And

(51:22):
it's funny that you mentioned the collective, like who do
you surround yourself by? And one of the reasons that
I love being in a visa is because there's such
a critical mass of people who really feel that we
are bringing about the change, you know, and that sounds pompous,
but we don't take it too seriously. We do our best.

(51:42):
We admit that it's in our nature to try to
prototype better humanity. It's in our nature to try to
make more beautiful music. It's in our nature to try
to grow crops and food in a way that's much
more in line with Mother Earth. But you know, don't
take yourself too seriously about it. It's it's just, you know,

(52:03):
it's just human. And it's funny because it's almost like
it's like a check and balances things here. Thing here.
Anybody who comes to the island, at least in you know,
our community and and and promises to be the one
to save us all or has the solution to every

(52:24):
everything is a person who's not going to entertain a
lot of attention. In music, there's actually a very interesting
thing is that nothing in music and modern music is
in tune. Nothing is truly in tune. It's not. And
this has nothing to do with people saying that it's
the fourth three two or something. It's just the relationship
between notes, something called the tempered scale that they just

(52:45):
don't tune properly because there's imperfections, there's something that makes
the masterpiece incomplete or a little bit crooked, you know.
And so for me, again, the more I tried to
approximate to absolute truths, the more I find myself encountering exceptions.

(53:07):
There was I was actually on the plane this morning
and I and with this younger guy and we're talking
about morality, and I said, I shared one of my
favorite sayings. I said that rules are for the for
the foolish to follow and the wise to heed, meaning
that that there's you know, maybe dancing on the table

(53:28):
is forbidden in this restaurant, but there's definitely a time
for dancing on the table. Right, there's a moment to
you know, speeding is illegal, but there's definitely a moment
for speeding. There's a you know, stealing is bad, but
perhaps there's a moment when stealing is exactly what you
have to do, the same thing we've all encountered. But
sometimes telling the truth is the worst thing you can do.

(53:51):
And I think that again, it's like, it's funny because
we started the conversation speaking about mischief and this, like
you know, these these kind of like little moments of
like nope, it's the other way around. It's like that
person you thought was the most moral and and smartest
human being apparently known. There's there's cracks there. There's deep
cracks and and and I think that that's kind of

(54:14):
the universe reminding us to be humble. I was like saying,
the more you try to figure me out, the more
you're going to struggle.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
I am grateful to say that. My last question that
I ask everybody is a bit of a mischief twist,
which is my reverse roles. Uh. And I ask you,
what's something you wish I would have asked, what did
I miss? What did you want to talk about? What
did we skip over? What did you have for breakfast?
And you thought that was super important? Whatever it is

(54:44):
that that you want to share that is either about
the big concepts we've been talking about or something more
personal or anything in between.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
That's funny. I actually wanted to ask about the archetypes
a bit more. That's not a question that I wanted
to ask myself. Oh, that's more more where I would
have wanted to to entertain that kind of context of
of of how how you imagine these creators and how
we all fit in. But that's that's again taking taking
your question and not even rather than dodging it, like

(55:18):
like turning it into something to and go here play
with that.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
The mischief upon mischief, that is that it is hanging
out with Jurgis well.

Speaker 5 (55:28):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Ultimately I view them as a spectrum of a rainbow.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
And so over here we have our reds, and of
course reds are also magentas, and of course they're also
ambers and and you know there there's there's no clear line,
just like there's no clear line between the fungus and
the tree roots. But it helps if we say red.
And so thus we have an archetype that fits into red.
And that archetype is the kind, the kind that I

(55:56):
call molecular or scientific, and for that is very it's
very precision focused. It is the people that do the
controlled experiments that follow a precise line. They love graphs,
they love using language in a very defined way because

(56:19):
then they feel like that definition gives them the leaping
off point to explore from. When we shift over to
the orange realm of things, we get the network type.
These are our ecologists, These are our economic folk. These
are people that see perhaps world in a more nodular way.

(56:40):
So we have our little note over here, a little
note over here, a little note over here, and oh
how interesting to see these connection points between them. And
then we get into the center that kind of is
this most ubiquitous place in between this rainbow, and we're
gonna call that yellow. And there we get designers, we
get weavers. These are people then definitely see we got

(57:03):
you know, strings over here and strings over here, and
we weave them together and depending on which ones on
top gives us this whole different image that we can
play with on top of it, and it's it's very
much about interconnectedness. So here we have community organizers, here,
we have architects. Here, we have people like Buckminster Fuller.

(57:26):
And then we we jump over to our our blues
over here, and that's where we get our artist types.
That's where we get our metaphors. These are where there
is a lot of relationship, but those relationships are within
these these juxtapositions that we create with these different symbols,

(57:46):
and by how we shape those symbols and put them
in relationship to each other, we'll say different things. You know,
if it's two notes, you can do an infinite amount
with those two notes, simply depending on how you position
in them against or with one another. And then finally
we get to our purples, and then we get our mystics.

(58:09):
We get our earbuds falling out of our ears, We
get our bodiment types, and they are the ones that
will that will remind us to always be in our body.
These are the people that, in comparison to the molecular types,
they will view any kind of language as a pale

(58:33):
translation to the lived experience of the Sufi's that spin
and the people that feel that their ancestors are represented
in a field of sunflowers, that they are a way
to look at ultimately what you talked about at the

(58:53):
very beginning, which is when you land within a certain
color or certain type, you kind of feel like, oh,
I resonate here. These are people that speak the same
language as I do. The way that I use the
term coexistence is the same way that these people say
compared to if you ask, like, as an artist, I

(59:15):
can play with that word all day long, but if
you talk to somebody who's more of a molecular type,
they will actually say, oh, actually, that word has this
precise definition, and now let me tell you about all
those super cool things about it, right, And so those
are those kind of the spectrum of ways of understanding,
oh I belong here. Well, do you want to do

(59:35):
you want to take us out in any kind of song?

Speaker 1 (59:39):
Hmm song? Yeah? Maybe hold on.

Speaker 5 (59:53):
If we are a mes soul, if we are food
of the earth, if we are nature in flesh, expressions
of death and reverse eyes on the heavens, feed on

(01:00:16):
the ground. A haunting suspicion what's lost.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Can be found.

Speaker 5 (01:00:24):
If there is hope in your heart, know that you're
not alone.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
That swelling sense of.

Speaker 6 (01:00:31):
Belief will grow, It will grow, will grow, grow, grow, grow.

Speaker 5 (01:00:44):
How do we know? How do we know? How do
we know that the seeds we've planted?

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
How do we know? How do we know?

Speaker 6 (01:01:00):
How do we.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Know that the seeds.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
We've planted will grow?

Speaker 6 (01:01:10):
They will grow, they will grow, will grow, grow, grow,
go go?

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
How do we know? How do we know?

Speaker 5 (01:01:29):
How do we know that the seeds we're planting.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Will grow? Something like that again, the issue of trust.
Zach Bush said that it's in a seed's nature to grow.
It doesn't question itself, It just does its thing. So

(01:01:55):
an encouragement to all the artists to just do their thing.

Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
Beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Thank you so much, Jegos, Such a delight to connect
with you again. Hey earthmte, how did that episode resonate?
Did it stretch you, inspire you, or perhaps irk you?
I'm here for it, so please reach out. Besides the socials,
we have a community to practice with on our website

(01:02:22):
earth archetypes dot Com, where more earth Archetypes can guide
your path and become dear friends. A great place to
start is the quiz to discover your type. Oh and
on your way, I'd love for you to hit the
subscribe button. See you again soon.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Hey Jonas!

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Playful Regeneration with METAPHOR Jurgis ​​Didziulis

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Hey Jonas!

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Playful Regeneration with METAPHOR Jurgis Didziulis

Hey Jonas!