October 28, 2025 • 41 mins
On this episode of The Federalist Radio Hour, Robert C. Enlow, president and CEO of EdChoice, joins Federalist Senior Elections Correspondent Matt Kittle to analyze the startling results of this year's Nation's Report Card and discuss why a one-size-fits-all school system will never work for America's children or the parents who care about the quality of the next generation's education.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
And we are back with another edition of the Federalist
Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle's senior elections correspondent at The
Federalist and your experience Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge.
As always, you can email the show at radio at
the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fbr LST,
(00:38):
make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and
of course to the premium version of our website as well.
Our guest today is Robert Enlow, President and CEO of
D Choice. We discuss the continuing woeful state of public
education in America. Robert, good to talk to you. Thank
you for joining us in this edition of the Federalist
Radio Hour. Thanks again for having us. I really appreciate
(01:00):
it absolutely well. We focus on the latest and not
so greatest results from the Nation's report Card every year.
It's an annual assessment of where our students stand in
public education in America. You write recently, I wrote recently
(01:21):
at Fox News and op ed piece you open saying this,
The newest results from the Nation's report Card were a
gut punch. Nearly half of high school seniors scored below
basic in math and reading compared to twoenty nineteen, the
last time the test was administered. The results are abysmal.
(01:41):
It's just one more sign that our education system is
failing or falling short of preparing students for college work
in life. But here's the thing. Parents didn't need another
test to tell them this. They see it every day.
Let us begin there with the nation's report card and
some of the startling results and what parents are telling
(02:04):
you about all of this.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
You know, I appreciate the question and the thoughts. You know,
it's a tragedy that we're in a situation where our
kids are not learning to the level they need to learn.
And this has been going on for such a long
time now, it's like, what does it take to get
Americans into a crisis about education. I'm hoping maybe this
will finally help them do that. These numbers. You know,
(02:28):
what parents are telling us is they're tired of their
children being bullied. They're tired of their children being anxious
around tests. They're tired of their children not getting the
quality education they need. This is the data that we
have from all of our studies and reports that we
do of parents all the time. They're just so frustrated
with the system, and we know why the systems not
(02:50):
teaching them. We know why the system. Has. One of
my favorite statistics, which is really quite sad to say
it's my favorite statistic, is that do you know that
since nineteen fifty there's been in seven hundred and fifty
percent increase in non teaching staff in America?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
They're now more non teachers in education than amazing. This
is just a problem. Yeah, that is a huge problem.
And I guess I'd like to expound upon that. Why
is that my hunches in part, we're seeing a lot
of non teaching staff administrators and overseers and DEI initiative administrators.
(03:34):
There has been, i know, on college campuses an explosion
of diversity, equity and inclusion officers. Is the same going
on in our pre K through twelve school system?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Well, I'm sure there were instances of that, but you've
got to think about the problem here is that when
a state legislature sees a problem in education, they typically say, well,
the problem. Way to solve that is by putting another
mandate on public schools, you know, and so they add
layers and layers, and then when they say we care
about mental health issues, the school system says, Oh, I
(04:09):
need to hire people. And so the challenge here is
to make sure that the institutional arrangements of education work
for families they're not. The key reason that this is
important that I say all the time is every year
since I've been in this country, back in this country
from nineteen ninety six he was born here but then
came back from England. Every year since nineteen ninety six,
(04:31):
there's been over a million kids that have dropped out
according to the data. Just think about that for a
little bit. There's thirty years of thirty million kids. There's
generational poverty created because we can't educate our kids, and
it's certainly not helping to make sure that we have
a whole bunch of of non teaching staff in the classroom.
So we need to get back to what we need
(04:52):
to have as teachers in the classroom and families with
more choices.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, I guess you know. We've been talking about this
for a long time. Some are getting it, some are
doubling down on it. But let me ask you this question.
Over that time period, you mentioned how much money has
been thrown at the broken public education system in America,
and has all of that money helped.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
For your listeners. It's really important to know this. There
is no credible data that shows a link between more
money and outcomes for kids. The data by Eric Knyuschek
and others shows quite the opposite, that money doesn't have
a correlative effect to outcomes and quality. We know that
since nineteen seventy they spent they've increased spending on education
(05:44):
two hundred and fifty percent. That is over inflation. So
we know that there's more money going into the system.
We know that there's no system that has lost money,
even in a school choice state, and so we know
that money's not helping. We know that families want options.
It's really interesting what's happening in a state like Florida.
You know, when we started tracking the data in Florida,
(06:06):
about eighty eight percent of the kids or so we're
going to their traditional assigned public school. Now, with all
of the choices, there are only fifty one point eight
percent going to traditional public schools. Interesting. It is a shift.
When you allow a state to have choice through through charters,
choice through private schools, choice through other public schools, our
(06:27):
magnet schools, you create this whole wide array of options
and families get a lot more diversity and services, and
what you're seeing in places like Florida and Arizona are
better name scores.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
But Robert, what do the teachers unions want? Because that
really is the most important thing, at least according to
the teachers unions.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, the teachers' unions don't want what we want. But
you know who does like education savings accounts? Teachers? Parents, Oh, teachers.
Teachers love it. If you look at our polling and data,
parents of course love it. But what we're finding is teachers,
I absolutely love the concept of education safety accounts because
they feel it empowers them to do their job better.
(07:07):
One of the most interesting trends is the number of
educators who are leaving traditional schools and starting micro schools
or pods. These are teachers said I'm done with this system,
I'm done with union control. Give me the ability to
control my classroom again. And that's what's happening around the country.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
That's another issue altogether, teachers dealing with out of control classrooms.
How much of that do you think is impacting the
horrible numbers we're seeing. Well, I think it's hard for
teachers who are in classroom situations where they don't feel
they have the power to control their classroom. For them
to control their classroom, I think you don't find that
(07:47):
in private schools and charter schools.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
The data is really clear. If you want your child
in a safer environment, you send them to a private school.
If you want their child in a more environment that's
more less anxious and less anxiety producing, you're seeing them
to a school of choice. Whether it's a charter or
a private school. These outcomes related to school safety and
children's anxiety and mental health are better in places where
(08:10):
more options are and our traditional system sadly isn't keeping up.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I think that's not the case all across the country.
I think in places like Florida, and in places like
Ohio and Indiana and Arizona, where there's a robust choice,
you're seeing these sectors have to get better.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
We are seeing that where I am talking to you
from the great state of Iowa.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yes, right here.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
In the Des Moines metro area. I think, for the
most part, I've been pretty pleased with our public education system.
Now I live in a suburb of Des Moines. I
don't have a superintendent in charge of education who claims
to be a doctor and have all of these degrees
(08:56):
when he doesn't and claims to be a US citizen,
he is not. I speak, of course, of the great
controversy involving Ian Roberts, who was the superintendent up until
about a month ago of the Des Moines Public school system.
But we have found out a great deal over that
(09:17):
last month that Ian Roberts in fact was in a
legal immigrant with a long criminal record including guns violations
and drug violations. He was heralded two years ago as
just a breath of fresh air on the diversity, equity
inclusion front. He is a black man from Guyana. He
(09:41):
is again not a US citizen, something that a lot
of folks in the Des Moines School district are asking,
how could something like this happen. I bring all of
this up by way of saying that where my kids
go to school, there is is you know, a pretty
(10:02):
pretty good environment. But they still complain about kids who
are extremely disruptive and teachers not being able to do
anything about that. If there's no accountability on that front,
and there's no accountability on who you hire as a superintendent, Houston,
we have a problem here, don't we.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, So it's certainly tragic to hear what happened with
your superintendent situation. You know that only hurts kids and
certainly hurts the credibility of des Moines public schools and
their public school board, and I hope that there's a
level of accountability around that going forward. I will tell
you that families are experiencing issues in public education regardless
(10:42):
of whether there's a good school or a bad school
that are similar. But because a one size fits all
system doesn't work anymore. Right, This idea that you can
go to one school where you're assigned where you live,
and then it's going to solve all of your problems
is not very realistic in modern society. And that's why,
for example, in your great state of Iowa, you have
a choice program, a universal ESA program, which grew forty
(11:06):
one percent a year over year, so it grew from
twenty six nine and ninety six kids in year one
to thirty eighty one and one in year two. There's
dramatic growth in your choice program because families are like,
I don't want a one size fits all. I want
a system that's more aligned with my values and my needs.
And there are lots of options as you mentioned before,
(11:27):
and that's good. I mean, let's take a look back.
I mean, I think.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Of thirty plus years ago, thirty five years ago and
some of the early foundational school choice programs out there.
In the state of Wisconsin. Governor Tommy Thompson was a
pioneer of that in the late eighties and early nineties
started the Milwaukee school choice program. Has had a good
(11:53):
deal of success over the years, and eventually, slowly but surely,
two decades later, you had the expansion of school choice
across the state of Wisconsin. Other states are following suit.
You mentioned Iowa. That choice is happening in multiple different
(12:14):
areas though, and it's not just the voucher systems you
mentioned open and open enrollment. How much of that is
impacting for the positive in the education system.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
It's having the impact for the positive because these school
systems that have been so able to not have to
deal with competition for such a long time because only
families that could afford it would move to private schools.
Now all families get access to the money to go
to private schools or charter schools or other options, and
so they're absolutely having to get their act together and
(12:51):
respond better and in fact so much so in Iowa.
I just want you to know, we actually do something
every year called the ed choice Share, which is what
percentage of families go to different school types, whether it's
traditional public schools, magnet schools, open enrollment charter schools, homeschools,
and private schools. And Iowa has jumped up to number
five in the country on this just in the last
(13:12):
two years. You have now a over you have almost
six and a half percent going to other public schools
across district lines choosing other public schools. You have your
Educational Choice programmer ESA is now it's seven point four
percent of all the kids of the state. Your charter
schools have grown to four point four percent of all
(13:33):
the kids, Your magnet schools are at one percent, and
your your homeschoolings at five percent. So you're creating a
state of educational options that's only going to grow.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
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Speaker 1 (14:18):
I think a lot of that has to do with
some of the abysmal education. For instance, we have seen
abysmal numbers in the Des Moines school system, for instance.
I know that in the Milwaukee Public school system. Both
of those school systems have seen dramatic declining enrollment over
(14:41):
the last several years, and that has much to do
with the choice that is involved. I'm curious what you're
seeing in terms of the national nationwide report card where
the you know the problems are. Are they significantly higher
(15:01):
in urban school areas. Are they significantly higher in say
blue states that aren't allowing choice.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
No, I think it's different, and let me go back.
I quote it Indiana numbers. Let me give you Iowa
numbers real quick. Iowa doesn't have a huge charter school population,
but they're growing. Your choice program is now at seven percent,
so you're seeing a lot of options in Iowa, and
you're actually number six in the country, slightly behind my
home state of Indiana. Here's the answer to your question.
(15:34):
That is, we're seeing problems in urban areas particularly, but
we're also seeing problems in suburban areas and in rural areas.
We're seeing problems across the board. Now, do wealthier families
do better than poor families? Yes, do white families tend
to do better than black and brown families, yes, those
are based on tests. But even our wealthiest, smartest kids,
(15:59):
if you look at our he's results, which are the
international tests, are the dumbest in the world. Right, so
we have a long way to go. If less than
forty percent of all kids in America can read, regardless
of color.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
That is, that's a powerful assessment. How did we go
from the brightest in the world to the dumbest in
the world in the span of what forty years?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
So I think that's because people don't understand what it
means to have a monopoly anymore, and they don't think
the government runs a monopoly except to this case it
does in the form of its K twelve education system.
If you look back to the nineteen fifties, in the
nineteen seventies, you saw around somewhere between fifty thousand and
seventy thousand school districts in America. Right, It was a
(16:47):
lot of competition because there was a lot of school districts. Today,
there's only about thirteen thousand school districts in America for
a population twice as large. When you centralize that, and
then when you make it as sort of monopolistic provision,
and then when you make it so that you can't
have individualization and customization, you really do make it impossible
(17:07):
to educate to anything but the middle. You know, we
certainly don't help the kids who are the least, and
we certainly don't help the kids who are the gifted.
And so we've got a long way to go and
choices a way to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
But wait a minute, now, I remember about twenty plus
years ago, twenty five years ago, we were in the
process of leaving no child behind. Seems to me, based
on these studies and what you're finding, we've left a
lot of children behind. Since then, we've left far too
many children behind.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Me.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Look, we've had episodic periods of change. So after the
Nation at Risk Report, right, if you remember that, you
know where they said, if a foreign government would have
done this to us, we would have declared it an
active war, right to you know, and that created some
change early on we needed to do some standards and
we created the whole standards movement, you know. Unfortunately, response
(17:59):
to noil to know a nation at risk was to
force down standards, right and create state tests. And the
result of that is sort of a monopoly of standards,
which again they get lowered and changed and gamed around.
What we did in the two thousands with George Bush's
sort of no Child Left Behind is we made it
really heavy top down accountability, which is unsustainable over time, right,
(18:23):
And so the problem is you saw takes upwards and
then the system just reverts to the mean. You know,
they call it actually in science, they call it regression
to the mean. And this is what's happening in schooling
because it needs outside external pressure in order to reform itself.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
It certainly does, and you know, it makes you wonder
after all of this time, curriculum is part of the problem.
And standardize curriculum in so many ways, not to say
that there isn't you know, standardized things that kids need
(18:59):
to know and math and sciences and history and all
of those sorts of things. But I'm curious what you
think about the common Core path and the effect that
that has had on public education in America over the
last fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
If a one size fits all institutional let me say
that again, if a one size fits all institutional structure
has not helped for all kids, there's no way that
a one sized curriculum is going to work for all kids,
or a one sized testing system is going to work
for all kids. We need to be thoughtful. I mean,
I can't believe we're in the twenty first century and
we still deliver education in every single way like it's
(19:38):
in the eighteenth century. We have to really think about
modernizing our systems, and we just seem to reflexively go
against that. You know, we have to figure out ways
where we can have standards and completion. But that doesn't
have to be about seat time. Let me give you
an example of what I mean. If my son in
(19:59):
high school can test out of the high school English,
why does he ever need to take another English course
he lets tests out. Why can't he go somewhere else
and do something that interests him, even if it's more English. Great,
but if it's more math, that's great too. But the
way the system is structured is he has to learn
a certain course every year in order to graduate, to
(20:19):
get these things called Carnegie units or credits. We have
to start institutionalizing the arrangements of education, whether it's curriculum
testing or how we deliver schooling by where you live.
I mean, this is a major problem that we have
a delivery mechanism that looks like it's the same as
eighteen forty.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Our guest today is Robert Enlow, President and CEO of
ed Choyce. We're talking about where things stand in public
education today and based on the latest testing results, not
good is the quick assessment on that front. Now there's
the vocational side of things too, where you know, we've
(21:00):
we've for decades it has been you know, drive kids
to that four year college, you know, drive kids to
institutions of higher education, post secondary education, and not everybody
is interested.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
In the past.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
We've seen a change somewhat on that front, but that too,
is i would imagine, is impacting some of the numbers
we're seeing.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Oh, it's totally changing the numbers are seeing, you know.
And again, let me make sure that I say one thing,
the public knows exactly how this is going. This is why,
well almost seventy percent of everyone in America says education
in K twelve is on the wrong track. And parents
who are who also incredibly high rates almost sixty percent
(21:52):
say it's on the wrong track. So this is a
real challenge right that we are seeing parents and the
public know that we're on the wrong track. Now, what's
interesting and heartening is we're beginning to see this idea
that you know, a place like Indiana, we're changing our
graduation pathways to allow for much more flexibility around apprenticeships,
(22:14):
much more flexibility around creating jobs that are the old
kind of jobs that we used to talk about, you know,
the auto shop jobs, the welding jobs. There's a lot
of those out there, and I think what we're beginning
to see is some flexibility around how states are going
to deliver opportunities for kids in those worlds. Instead of
saying you only have to go to four year college, right,
(22:36):
they're saying you can maybe do this apprenticeship, or maybe
you could get this apprenticeship done by the time you're
out of high school. It's a lot of opportunity coming.
I think good. That's good to hear.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Let's take a look at some core numbers here if
we could, because that's at the end of the day.
The argument from the dejocrats in the public school system,
the public school industrial complex, if you will, has been
the same for such a long time and very very territorial.
(23:06):
As we know, how are our students faring in choice
programs and maybe to break it down, vouchers, systems, charters, homeschooling,
open enrollment, all of those different facets, how are they
comparing to their fellow students in the traditional public school system.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So I love that you asked this question. And obviously
I'm an expert when it comes to the data on
private school choice, and I know a lot about the
data on charter schools. Here's what I know about the
private school choice side of it. Families and children who
attend private schools using a scholarship tend to perform slightly
(23:52):
better over time on tests. Right. There's not a huge
difference on tests, right, but slightly better over time. Some
programs in the first couple of years see a dip,
and then they come back and surpass their peers by
the fourth and third and fourth year, so over time
you see kids do slightly better on tests. Here's where
it gets really good. Kids in these programs attain at
(24:15):
higher rates, they graduated at higher rates, they matriculate into
college and secondary degrees at higher rates, and they persist
in those at higher rates. That same data is true
of charter schools. So on one side you see both
charter schools and private schools better serving kids on test scores.
In the private school community, it's a slightly big difference,
(24:35):
not a huge one, and they are all having significantly
better results for kids graduating and moving to college. But
if that's all we were cared about, that would be
a success. But we know from the data that states
that have choice programs matt find their public schools improving faster.
This is data that's really clear from across I don't
(24:56):
think there's hardly anyone who disagrees with this. The competitive
effects the school choice are positive for public schools. The
other data that I think is really important, and this
this is also true of charter schools. Kids are having
better civic outcomes like in the voucher receiving private schools
and charter schools, kids are more tolerant of other people's opinions.
(25:17):
They're more willing to engage in dialogue and debate. Right,
their families vote more. There's a lot of positive outcomes
coming from these from the data that we've seen, and
so like all the other I say this, parents satisfaction
in these programs is through the roof. If that were
a metric in our traditional schools, we wouldn't be having conversations.
(25:38):
Money would be pouring in. Yeah, right, So look across
the board. The programs are providing a better quality of
education for all the types of families, and that's what
we care about.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
That's fascinating because yes, we you know, we fixate understandably
so to a point on the test scores and how
kids are are faring academically. But there are so many
other important components to that, and you mentioned a significant
one that I think is absolutely fundamental to the health
(26:11):
of this republic, And you mentioned the civic involvement, engagement,
the civic success that we're seeing in choice schools, and
the one area in particular, individuals, human beings, adults that
are more tolerant of opposing opinions. We take a look
(26:37):
at what's happening in Washington, DC these days, they could
take a lesson. I think from that level of success, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Think we want to see children behaving better and having
civic arrangements and civic values that are good for them.
So you know they do these, How will the effect
affect these kids? And so what we're finding about through
these questionnaires is no study has found any negative effects.
(27:08):
There's been eleven studies done of this issue, right, none
of them have found negative effects, right, And I think
that's incredible. Students, for example, and who participated in Milwaukee's
voucher program compared to their public school districts, and they
looked at their likelihood to engage in criminal activity. They
actually found that the kids in the voucher progroom was
(27:30):
associated with lower rates of criminal activity. These are positive
outcomes that we should be happy for as as a society.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yes, those more maybe more than at this point as
we see the wreckage of society, maybe that is more
important than any academic number at a certain level. Of course,
we're referring to and I should note this ad choice
is twenty twenty five Schooling and America Survey. You've been
(28:01):
doing this for a long time. I'm curious what your
survey this year found in how teachers are feeling in
public schools, because if you're going to see change in
the right direction, it has to begin there in the classroom.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well, as you know, teachers are often the most pessimistic
about their own situation, and they are We actually do
something called the Public Opinion Tracker, where we have been
tracking sort of tea teacher and public opinion for the
last five years. And so what's amazing is we just
(28:42):
did a teacher survey this last April, so we do
want a quarter here, and what we found when teachers
were asked about their supportive of education to Saints accounts
they're feeling but when you look at themselves and how
they're talking about their our own industry, nearly one third
(29:04):
of all teachers are saying they're overwhelmed. They're expressing high
levels of pessimism when it comes to the teaching profession.
Right now, private school teachers are much more positive than
our public school teachers. But there's a challenge here that
teachers are not feeling very supported. They're feeling overwhelmed. And
(29:24):
it's interesting more than half of teachers in our survey
think that laws pass to limit the teaching of divisive
topics are bad or unnecessary. That's interesting, But what's really
important here is they believe in the essays. I was
really blown away by the level of support for education
savans accounts. A majority of all teachers support education savans accounts.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Let's talk about those education savings accounts, because that was
a concept dreamed of a long time ago. To get
buy in, of course, it's taken a lot of time,
and you know there's a long way to go on
that front. But how many states are using them, employing them,
and where do you see it all going from here?
Speaker 2 (30:10):
So we looked at we track the bills that are
released every year. I think they're about ninety bills that
have been introduced in twenty twenty five for educational choice programs.
Seventy percent of about sixty eight percent of them or
education savings account related. So the vast majority of the
reform going forward is definitely going to be essays in
(30:32):
essays are now I believe in seventeen or eighteen states. Fully,
some of the states like Florida, Arkansas, or West Virginia,
Arizona and Indiana and New Hampshire are we consider the
best states. They're fully universal, which is really good. So
it's exciting to see the growth of this conversation around
(30:53):
school choice and essays. And it's going to go to
teachers too. In fact, to here, let me, I just
pulled these up. Seventy five percent of all teachers generally
support education savings accounts. That's forty percent of them, right,
Almost almost forty percent of them strongly support them, which
those are huge number compared to those are percent who
(31:15):
strongly opposed. Definitely, those are significant numbers. And it tells
you that the narrative that you're hearing from, you know,
the teachers' unions is not correct, that teachers do indeed
back these and for reasons that you stated before. There's
been a lot of talk over the last several months,
(31:39):
in particular Trump two point zero about the failings of
the Federal Department of Education, and folks have different thoughts
on that. You know, this this bureaucracy that was created
in the Carter administration, came to life in nineteen eighty,
has been around for forty five years. Is now how.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Much has the Federal Department of Education, which only has
so much financial stake in all of this and how
much has that department impacted what we're seeing out there today.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So that's a great question, and we've got to remember
that the Department of Education, as a cabinet level department
was created in nineteen eighty. It actually started as a
cabinet level department way back in the eighteen I think
eighteen forties or eighteen sixties, and then it became demoted
to sort of a non cabinet position, and then it
got elevated again. So we've had a Department of Education
(32:43):
for a long time now, and its original job was
to survey the condition of education in America. What it
has become is a compliance factory. So I used to know,
I still know former Superintendent of Arizona, Lisa Graham Keegan,
a dear friend who used to say to me, I
get nine percent of my money from the federal government,
(33:04):
but fifty percent of my staff is used for their compliance.
And so the challenges you have with the federal government's
intervention and involvement in state education is a compliance challenge,
a regulatory and compliance challenge that makes it harder for
them to do their job. But it's important that they
do their job, like, for example, for special needs students
(33:27):
or to fund kids who need it. More So, there's
funding requirements that I think need to still be carried
out in American education. They don't have to be carried
out at the Department of Education, but they still need
to be carried out. The majority of Americans don't want
to eliminate the work of the Department of Education. A
slightly fewer are opposed to getting rid of it. So
(33:49):
what I'm saying here is the work of the Department
of Education is supported by the majority of Americans. So
fund education, make sure the kids of special needs are
getting the services. While they still support having a Department
of Education, a lot fewer of them are saying you
have to only do it through the Department of Education.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Well, I can tell you this, The Department of Education
has been weaponized over the years. And I know that
for sure because I have done some investigative reporting on
the Milwaukee schools system under the Obama administration, and you know,
the Department of Justice, dear colleague, letters into actual you know,
(34:29):
physical investigations and I'll say it, harassment of the choice
schools in Milwaukee. You know, that is the definition of
weaponization of justice in America, driven by politics. So I
can understand from that point of view that these voucher
(34:53):
schools in Milwaukee and school choice schools across the country
have misgiven about this Department of Education, and they should right.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
And so I remember those dear colleague letters to and
they were going after vouchers receiving schools in Milwaukee who
were serving special needs kids or who they say weren't
serving specially needs kids, but they were. This is a
real challenge that the former departments have been weaponized, particularly
through the civil rights and Look, we want to make
sure the kids who have special needs get the services
(35:28):
they need, but we don't want to assist the department
to be weaponized against a school type.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, no doubt about it. Kind of a dark chapter
for that department over the years. What happens, I mean,
this is the ultimate question. What happens if we don't
get this right And we've had failing scores for a
(35:57):
long time now. You mentioned how we compare on the
international scale not very well. What happens if we don't
get this thing straightened out and get it down the
right path.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Man, That's a great question and a good question to
sort of think about the end in the sense that
Rose Friedman said. Milton's wife said, if you can't read,
you can't write, you can't compute, you don't understand history.
Who's going to govern the affairs of our country? I
think there's a real question about the future of governance
of our country. And for a more modern idea, there's
(36:32):
a movie out there called Idiocracy that I would encourage
everyone in the listing audience to reach to watch. That
is the future that scares the heck out of me, right,
but even more importantly currently what's happening is if you
want to know why there's a distinction and a growing
and a growing distinction between the haves and the have nots,
(36:52):
it's education. If you want to know why there's growing
gaps between those who have money and those who don't,
it's education. And Act says to education right and access
to learning. If you want to solve the problem of
our stratification of society, then you're trying to give families
more options and more choices. That's what Milton Friedman said.
(37:14):
He said, the biggest problem is that we've stratified society
through our education system, and we it's gotten worse now.
I think with choice programs you'll see it getting better.
One metric we should be all looking at is in
choice states, which is our families earning more over time.
My hole.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Well, yeah, that's that's absolutely foundational to everything you just
mentioned about the future of this country. I want within
all of that the context of the disparity though that
is going on in education. And we know inherently that
there has been disparate education for a long time, and
(37:59):
you know, at some level that will probably never change.
That said, what about the disparity between choice options from
state to state.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
You know, we have growing.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
School choice programs in certain states, but teachers' unions that
hold the reins of power, particularly in blue states, are
stopping this movement from happening. How do you go up
against that so that everybody, every family, every student can
(38:36):
share in the benefits of choice.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
So I tell you what's going to be interesting. The
federal tax credit that just passed, right, So in the
One Big Beautiful bill, there was a federal tax credit
for scholarships program that passed or not program, a tax
credit that was passed, and I think that will help
blue states get on par with red states if they
choose to opt in. It will allow every participating taxpayer
(39:03):
to get a seventeen hundred dollars dollar for dollar credit
if they give to a nonprofit group that gives out scholarships. Now,
how incredible would that be in a state like Massachusetts,
where you could gather donors from across the state to
help children in public, charter and private schools. I think
what you're going to find though, is Blue states won't
take it, and a lot of the money from donors
(39:25):
is going to go to other states. And I think
that will help encourage blue state governors to opt into
this program over time, and they'll have more choices as
a result. That is good to.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Hear, But ultimately it's going to come down to the administrators,
to the governments in charge of all of this sort
of stuff, and if they make the choices for the kids,
then the kids will benefit. If they make the choices
for their benefactors to their campaigns, we're talking about a
(39:56):
worsening of this situation for those who for those who
we don't know, please give us a little more information,
a little more insight on ED Choice.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah. So, ED Choice is the legacy foundation of Milton
and Rose Friedman, and we have one simple mission. Every
child should be free to access every educational option in
America with all of the available dollars set aside for
that children. That's what we believe, and we achieve that
through our research, our training, our advocacy, and our litigation work.
(40:28):
And so we're excited to be I think now the
nation's oldest school choice organization in America supporting universal choice.
And so we have been going for thirty years to
carry out Milton's vision. We've grown from a state time
when we had six choice programs in America to now
I think we have seventy four in operating in thirty
five states, DC and Puerto Rico. There are now almost
(40:51):
half of children in America are eligible to sign up
for a program. This is great news. We're making huge
progress an ed Choice which can be founded EdChoice dot org.
It can be said to be one of the leaders
of that.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Effort, indeed, and that's where you can find that survey
we alluded to. Ed Choice is twenty twenty five Schooling
in America. Survey really comes along at the right time
when we're taking a look at the national nationwide report
card and where things stand today and what it suggests
moving forward. Thanks to My guest today Robert Enlo, President
(41:27):
and CEO of ED Choice. You've been listening to another
edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm at Kittle's senior
elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more.
Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.
And we are back with another edition of the Federalist
Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle's senior elections correspondent at The
Federalist and your experience Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge.
As always, you can email the show at radio at
the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fbr LST,
(00:38):
make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and
of course to the premium version of our website as well.
Our guest today is Robert Enlow, President and CEO of
D Choice. We discuss the continuing woeful state of public
education in America. Robert, good to talk to you. Thank
you for joining us in this edition of the Federalist
Radio Hour. Thanks again for having us. I really appreciate
(01:00):
it absolutely well. We focus on the latest and not
so greatest results from the Nation's report Card every year.
It's an annual assessment of where our students stand in
public education in America. You write recently, I wrote recently
(01:21):
at Fox News and op ed piece you open saying this,
The newest results from the Nation's report Card were a
gut punch. Nearly half of high school seniors scored below
basic in math and reading compared to twoenty nineteen, the
last time the test was administered. The results are abysmal.
(01:41):
It's just one more sign that our education system is
failing or falling short of preparing students for college work
in life. But here's the thing. Parents didn't need another
test to tell them this. They see it every day.
Let us begin there with the nation's report card and
some of the startling results and what parents are telling
(02:04):
you about all of this.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
You know, I appreciate the question and the thoughts. You know,
it's a tragedy that we're in a situation where our
kids are not learning to the level they need to learn.
And this has been going on for such a long
time now, it's like, what does it take to get
Americans into a crisis about education. I'm hoping maybe this
will finally help them do that. These numbers. You know,
(02:28):
what parents are telling us is they're tired of their
children being bullied. They're tired of their children being anxious
around tests. They're tired of their children not getting the
quality education they need. This is the data that we
have from all of our studies and reports that we
do of parents all the time. They're just so frustrated
with the system, and we know why the systems not
(02:50):
teaching them. We know why the system. Has. One of
my favorite statistics, which is really quite sad to say
it's my favorite statistic, is that do you know that
since nineteen fifty there's been in seven hundred and fifty
percent increase in non teaching staff in America?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
They're now more non teachers in education than amazing. This
is just a problem. Yeah, that is a huge problem.
And I guess I'd like to expound upon that. Why
is that my hunches in part, we're seeing a lot
of non teaching staff administrators and overseers and DEI initiative administrators.
(03:34):
There has been, i know, on college campuses an explosion
of diversity, equity and inclusion officers. Is the same going
on in our pre K through twelve school system?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Well, I'm sure there were instances of that, but you've
got to think about the problem here is that when
a state legislature sees a problem in education, they typically say, well,
the problem. Way to solve that is by putting another
mandate on public schools, you know, and so they add
layers and layers, and then when they say we care
about mental health issues, the school system says, Oh, I
(04:09):
need to hire people. And so the challenge here is
to make sure that the institutional arrangements of education work
for families they're not. The key reason that this is
important that I say all the time is every year
since I've been in this country, back in this country
from nineteen ninety six he was born here but then
came back from England. Every year since nineteen ninety six,
(04:31):
there's been over a million kids that have dropped out
according to the data. Just think about that for a
little bit. There's thirty years of thirty million kids. There's
generational poverty created because we can't educate our kids, and
it's certainly not helping to make sure that we have
a whole bunch of of non teaching staff in the classroom.
So we need to get back to what we need
(04:52):
to have as teachers in the classroom and families with
more choices.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, I guess you know. We've been talking about this
for a long time. Some are getting it, some are
doubling down on it. But let me ask you this question.
Over that time period, you mentioned how much money has
been thrown at the broken public education system in America,
and has all of that money helped.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
For your listeners. It's really important to know this. There
is no credible data that shows a link between more
money and outcomes for kids. The data by Eric Knyuschek
and others shows quite the opposite, that money doesn't have
a correlative effect to outcomes and quality. We know that
since nineteen seventy they spent they've increased spending on education
(05:44):
two hundred and fifty percent. That is over inflation. So
we know that there's more money going into the system.
We know that there's no system that has lost money,
even in a school choice state, and so we know
that money's not helping. We know that families want options.
It's really interesting what's happening in a state like Florida.
You know, when we started tracking the data in Florida,
(06:06):
about eighty eight percent of the kids or so we're
going to their traditional assigned public school. Now, with all
of the choices, there are only fifty one point eight
percent going to traditional public schools. Interesting. It is a shift.
When you allow a state to have choice through through charters,
choice through private schools, choice through other public schools, our
(06:27):
magnet schools, you create this whole wide array of options
and families get a lot more diversity and services, and
what you're seeing in places like Florida and Arizona are
better name scores.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
But Robert, what do the teachers unions want? Because that
really is the most important thing, at least according to
the teachers unions.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, the teachers' unions don't want what we want. But
you know who does like education savings accounts? Teachers? Parents, Oh, teachers.
Teachers love it. If you look at our polling and data,
parents of course love it. But what we're finding is teachers,
I absolutely love the concept of education safety accounts because
they feel it empowers them to do their job better.
(07:07):
One of the most interesting trends is the number of
educators who are leaving traditional schools and starting micro schools
or pods. These are teachers said I'm done with this system,
I'm done with union control. Give me the ability to
control my classroom again. And that's what's happening around the country.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
That's another issue altogether, teachers dealing with out of control classrooms.
How much of that do you think is impacting the
horrible numbers we're seeing. Well, I think it's hard for
teachers who are in classroom situations where they don't feel
they have the power to control their classroom. For them
to control their classroom, I think you don't find that
(07:47):
in private schools and charter schools.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
The data is really clear. If you want your child
in a safer environment, you send them to a private school.
If you want their child in a more environment that's
more less anxious and less anxiety producing, you're seeing them
to a school of choice. Whether it's a charter or
a private school. These outcomes related to school safety and
children's anxiety and mental health are better in places where
(08:10):
more options are and our traditional system sadly isn't keeping up.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I think that's not the case all across the country.
I think in places like Florida, and in places like
Ohio and Indiana and Arizona, where there's a robust choice,
you're seeing these sectors have to get better.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
We are seeing that where I am talking to you
from the great state of Iowa.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yes, right here.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
In the Des Moines metro area. I think, for the
most part, I've been pretty pleased with our public education system.
Now I live in a suburb of Des Moines. I
don't have a superintendent in charge of education who claims
to be a doctor and have all of these degrees
(08:56):
when he doesn't and claims to be a US citizen,
he is not. I speak, of course, of the great
controversy involving Ian Roberts, who was the superintendent up until
about a month ago of the Des Moines Public school system.
But we have found out a great deal over that
(09:17):
last month that Ian Roberts in fact was in a
legal immigrant with a long criminal record including guns violations
and drug violations. He was heralded two years ago as
just a breath of fresh air on the diversity, equity
inclusion front. He is a black man from Guyana. He
(09:41):
is again not a US citizen, something that a lot
of folks in the Des Moines School district are asking,
how could something like this happen. I bring all of
this up by way of saying that where my kids
go to school, there is is you know, a pretty
(10:02):
pretty good environment. But they still complain about kids who
are extremely disruptive and teachers not being able to do
anything about that. If there's no accountability on that front,
and there's no accountability on who you hire as a superintendent, Houston,
we have a problem here, don't we.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, So it's certainly tragic to hear what happened with
your superintendent situation. You know that only hurts kids and
certainly hurts the credibility of des Moines public schools and
their public school board, and I hope that there's a
level of accountability around that going forward. I will tell
you that families are experiencing issues in public education regardless
(10:42):
of whether there's a good school or a bad school
that are similar. But because a one size fits all
system doesn't work anymore. Right, This idea that you can
go to one school where you're assigned where you live,
and then it's going to solve all of your problems
is not very realistic in modern society. And that's why,
for example, in your great state of Iowa, you have
a choice program, a universal ESA program, which grew forty
(11:06):
one percent a year over year, so it grew from
twenty six nine and ninety six kids in year one
to thirty eighty one and one in year two. There's
dramatic growth in your choice program because families are like,
I don't want a one size fits all. I want
a system that's more aligned with my values and my needs.
And there are lots of options as you mentioned before,
(11:27):
and that's good. I mean, let's take a look back.
I mean, I think.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Of thirty plus years ago, thirty five years ago and
some of the early foundational school choice programs out there.
In the state of Wisconsin. Governor Tommy Thompson was a
pioneer of that in the late eighties and early nineties
started the Milwaukee school choice program. Has had a good
(11:53):
deal of success over the years, and eventually, slowly but surely,
two decades later, you had the expansion of school choice
across the state of Wisconsin. Other states are following suit.
You mentioned Iowa. That choice is happening in multiple different
(12:14):
areas though, and it's not just the voucher systems you
mentioned open and open enrollment. How much of that is
impacting for the positive in the education system.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
It's having the impact for the positive because these school
systems that have been so able to not have to
deal with competition for such a long time because only
families that could afford it would move to private schools.
Now all families get access to the money to go
to private schools or charter schools or other options, and
so they're absolutely having to get their act together and
(12:51):
respond better and in fact so much so in Iowa.
I just want you to know, we actually do something
every year called the ed choice Share, which is what
percentage of families go to different school types, whether it's
traditional public schools, magnet schools, open enrollment charter schools, homeschools,
and private schools. And Iowa has jumped up to number
five in the country on this just in the last
(13:12):
two years. You have now a over you have almost
six and a half percent going to other public schools
across district lines choosing other public schools. You have your
Educational Choice programmer ESA is now it's seven point four
percent of all the kids of the state. Your charter
schools have grown to four point four percent of all
(13:33):
the kids, Your magnet schools are at one percent, and
your your homeschoolings at five percent. So you're creating a
state of educational options that's only going to grow.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
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Speaker 1 (14:18):
I think a lot of that has to do with
some of the abysmal education. For instance, we have seen
abysmal numbers in the Des Moines school system, for instance.
I know that in the Milwaukee Public school system. Both
of those school systems have seen dramatic declining enrollment over
(14:41):
the last several years, and that has much to do
with the choice that is involved. I'm curious what you're
seeing in terms of the national nationwide report card where
the you know the problems are. Are they significantly higher
(15:01):
in urban school areas. Are they significantly higher in say
blue states that aren't allowing choice.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
No, I think it's different, and let me go back.
I quote it Indiana numbers. Let me give you Iowa
numbers real quick. Iowa doesn't have a huge charter school population,
but they're growing. Your choice program is now at seven percent,
so you're seeing a lot of options in Iowa, and
you're actually number six in the country, slightly behind my
home state of Indiana. Here's the answer to your question.
(15:34):
That is, we're seeing problems in urban areas particularly, but
we're also seeing problems in suburban areas and in rural areas.
We're seeing problems across the board. Now, do wealthier families
do better than poor families? Yes, do white families tend
to do better than black and brown families, yes, those
are based on tests. But even our wealthiest, smartest kids,
(15:59):
if you look at our he's results, which are the
international tests, are the dumbest in the world. Right, so
we have a long way to go. If less than
forty percent of all kids in America can read, regardless
of color.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
That is, that's a powerful assessment. How did we go
from the brightest in the world to the dumbest in
the world in the span of what forty years?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
So I think that's because people don't understand what it
means to have a monopoly anymore, and they don't think
the government runs a monopoly except to this case it
does in the form of its K twelve education system.
If you look back to the nineteen fifties, in the
nineteen seventies, you saw around somewhere between fifty thousand and
seventy thousand school districts in America. Right, It was a
(16:47):
lot of competition because there was a lot of school districts. Today,
there's only about thirteen thousand school districts in America for
a population twice as large. When you centralize that, and
then when you make it as sort of monopolistic provision,
and then when you make it so that you can't
have individualization and customization, you really do make it impossible
(17:07):
to educate to anything but the middle. You know, we
certainly don't help the kids who are the least, and
we certainly don't help the kids who are the gifted.
And so we've got a long way to go and
choices a way to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
But wait a minute, now, I remember about twenty plus
years ago, twenty five years ago, we were in the
process of leaving no child behind. Seems to me, based
on these studies and what you're finding, we've left a
lot of children behind. Since then, we've left far too
many children behind.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Me.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Look, we've had episodic periods of change. So after the
Nation at Risk Report, right, if you remember that, you
know where they said, if a foreign government would have
done this to us, we would have declared it an
active war, right to you know, and that created some
change early on we needed to do some standards and
we created the whole standards movement, you know. Unfortunately, response
(17:59):
to noil to know a nation at risk was to
force down standards, right and create state tests. And the
result of that is sort of a monopoly of standards,
which again they get lowered and changed and gamed around.
What we did in the two thousands with George Bush's
sort of no Child Left Behind is we made it
really heavy top down accountability, which is unsustainable over time, right,
(18:23):
And so the problem is you saw takes upwards and
then the system just reverts to the mean. You know,
they call it actually in science, they call it regression
to the mean. And this is what's happening in schooling
because it needs outside external pressure in order to reform itself.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
It certainly does, and you know, it makes you wonder
after all of this time, curriculum is part of the problem.
And standardize curriculum in so many ways, not to say
that there isn't you know, standardized things that kids need
(18:59):
to know and math and sciences and history and all
of those sorts of things. But I'm curious what you
think about the common Core path and the effect that
that has had on public education in America over the
last fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
If a one size fits all institutional let me say
that again, if a one size fits all institutional structure
has not helped for all kids, there's no way that
a one sized curriculum is going to work for all kids,
or a one sized testing system is going to work
for all kids. We need to be thoughtful. I mean,
I can't believe we're in the twenty first century and
we still deliver education in every single way like it's
(19:38):
in the eighteenth century. We have to really think about
modernizing our systems, and we just seem to reflexively go
against that. You know, we have to figure out ways
where we can have standards and completion. But that doesn't
have to be about seat time. Let me give you
an example of what I mean. If my son in
(19:59):
high school can test out of the high school English,
why does he ever need to take another English course
he lets tests out. Why can't he go somewhere else
and do something that interests him, even if it's more English. Great,
but if it's more math, that's great too. But the
way the system is structured is he has to learn
a certain course every year in order to graduate, to
(20:19):
get these things called Carnegie units or credits. We have
to start institutionalizing the arrangements of education, whether it's curriculum
testing or how we deliver schooling by where you live.
I mean, this is a major problem that we have
a delivery mechanism that looks like it's the same as
eighteen forty.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Our guest today is Robert Enlow, President and CEO of
ed Choyce. We're talking about where things stand in public
education today and based on the latest testing results, not
good is the quick assessment on that front. Now there's
the vocational side of things too, where you know, we've
(21:00):
we've for decades it has been you know, drive kids
to that four year college, you know, drive kids to
institutions of higher education, post secondary education, and not everybody
is interested.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
In the past.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
We've seen a change somewhat on that front, but that too,
is i would imagine, is impacting some of the numbers
we're seeing.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Oh, it's totally changing the numbers are seeing, you know.
And again, let me make sure that I say one thing,
the public knows exactly how this is going. This is why,
well almost seventy percent of everyone in America says education
in K twelve is on the wrong track. And parents
who are who also incredibly high rates almost sixty percent
(21:52):
say it's on the wrong track. So this is a
real challenge right that we are seeing parents and the
public know that we're on the wrong track. Now, what's
interesting and heartening is we're beginning to see this idea
that you know, a place like Indiana, we're changing our
graduation pathways to allow for much more flexibility around apprenticeships,
(22:14):
much more flexibility around creating jobs that are the old
kind of jobs that we used to talk about, you know,
the auto shop jobs, the welding jobs. There's a lot
of those out there, and I think what we're beginning
to see is some flexibility around how states are going
to deliver opportunities for kids in those worlds. Instead of
saying you only have to go to four year college, right,
(22:36):
they're saying you can maybe do this apprenticeship, or maybe
you could get this apprenticeship done by the time you're
out of high school. It's a lot of opportunity coming.
I think good. That's good to hear.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Let's take a look at some core numbers here if
we could, because that's at the end of the day.
The argument from the dejocrats in the public school system,
the public school industrial complex, if you will, has been
the same for such a long time and very very territorial.
(23:06):
As we know, how are our students faring in choice
programs and maybe to break it down, vouchers, systems, charters, homeschooling,
open enrollment, all of those different facets, how are they
comparing to their fellow students in the traditional public school system.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So I love that you asked this question. And obviously
I'm an expert when it comes to the data on
private school choice, and I know a lot about the
data on charter schools. Here's what I know about the
private school choice side of it. Families and children who
attend private schools using a scholarship tend to perform slightly
(23:52):
better over time on tests. Right. There's not a huge
difference on tests, right, but slightly better over time. Some
programs in the first couple of years see a dip,
and then they come back and surpass their peers by
the fourth and third and fourth year, so over time
you see kids do slightly better on tests. Here's where
it gets really good. Kids in these programs attain at
(24:15):
higher rates, they graduated at higher rates, they matriculate into
college and secondary degrees at higher rates, and they persist
in those at higher rates. That same data is true
of charter schools. So on one side you see both
charter schools and private schools better serving kids on test scores.
In the private school community, it's a slightly big difference,
(24:35):
not a huge one, and they are all having significantly
better results for kids graduating and moving to college. But
if that's all we were cared about, that would be
a success. But we know from the data that states
that have choice programs matt find their public schools improving faster.
This is data that's really clear from across I don't
(24:56):
think there's hardly anyone who disagrees with this. The competitive
effects the school choice are positive for public schools. The
other data that I think is really important, and this
this is also true of charter schools. Kids are having
better civic outcomes like in the voucher receiving private schools
and charter schools, kids are more tolerant of other people's opinions.
(25:17):
They're more willing to engage in dialogue and debate. Right,
their families vote more. There's a lot of positive outcomes
coming from these from the data that we've seen, and
so like all the other I say this, parents satisfaction
in these programs is through the roof. If that were
a metric in our traditional schools, we wouldn't be having conversations.
(25:38):
Money would be pouring in. Yeah, right, So look across
the board. The programs are providing a better quality of
education for all the types of families, and that's what
we care about.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
That's fascinating because yes, we you know, we fixate understandably
so to a point on the test scores and how
kids are are faring academically. But there are so many
other important components to that, and you mentioned a significant
one that I think is absolutely fundamental to the health
(26:11):
of this republic, And you mentioned the civic involvement, engagement,
the civic success that we're seeing in choice schools, and
the one area in particular, individuals, human beings, adults that
are more tolerant of opposing opinions. We take a look
(26:37):
at what's happening in Washington, DC these days, they could
take a lesson. I think from that level of success, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Think we want to see children behaving better and having
civic arrangements and civic values that are good for them.
So you know they do these, How will the effect
affect these kids? And so what we're finding about through
these questionnaires is no study has found any negative effects.
(27:08):
There's been eleven studies done of this issue, right, none
of them have found negative effects, right, And I think
that's incredible. Students, for example, and who participated in Milwaukee's
voucher program compared to their public school districts, and they
looked at their likelihood to engage in criminal activity. They
actually found that the kids in the voucher progroom was
(27:30):
associated with lower rates of criminal activity. These are positive
outcomes that we should be happy for as as a society.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yes, those more maybe more than at this point as
we see the wreckage of society, maybe that is more
important than any academic number at a certain level. Of course,
we're referring to and I should note this ad choice
is twenty twenty five Schooling and America Survey. You've been
(28:01):
doing this for a long time. I'm curious what your
survey this year found in how teachers are feeling in
public schools, because if you're going to see change in
the right direction, it has to begin there in the classroom.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well, as you know, teachers are often the most pessimistic
about their own situation, and they are We actually do
something called the Public Opinion Tracker, where we have been
tracking sort of tea teacher and public opinion for the
last five years. And so what's amazing is we just
(28:42):
did a teacher survey this last April, so we do
want a quarter here, and what we found when teachers
were asked about their supportive of education to Saints accounts
they're feeling but when you look at themselves and how
they're talking about their our own industry, nearly one third
(29:04):
of all teachers are saying they're overwhelmed. They're expressing high
levels of pessimism when it comes to the teaching profession.
Right now, private school teachers are much more positive than
our public school teachers. But there's a challenge here that
teachers are not feeling very supported. They're feeling overwhelmed. And
(29:24):
it's interesting more than half of teachers in our survey
think that laws pass to limit the teaching of divisive
topics are bad or unnecessary. That's interesting, But what's really
important here is they believe in the essays. I was
really blown away by the level of support for education
savans accounts. A majority of all teachers support education savans accounts.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Let's talk about those education savings accounts, because that was
a concept dreamed of a long time ago. To get
buy in, of course, it's taken a lot of time,
and you know there's a long way to go on
that front. But how many states are using them, employing them,
and where do you see it all going from here?
Speaker 2 (30:10):
So we looked at we track the bills that are
released every year. I think they're about ninety bills that
have been introduced in twenty twenty five for educational choice programs.
Seventy percent of about sixty eight percent of them or
education savings account related. So the vast majority of the
reform going forward is definitely going to be essays in
(30:32):
essays are now I believe in seventeen or eighteen states. Fully,
some of the states like Florida, Arkansas, or West Virginia,
Arizona and Indiana and New Hampshire are we consider the
best states. They're fully universal, which is really good. So
it's exciting to see the growth of this conversation around
(30:53):
school choice and essays. And it's going to go to
teachers too. In fact, to here, let me, I just
pulled these up. Seventy five percent of all teachers generally
support education savings accounts. That's forty percent of them, right,
Almost almost forty percent of them strongly support them, which
those are huge number compared to those are percent who
(31:15):
strongly opposed. Definitely, those are significant numbers. And it tells
you that the narrative that you're hearing from, you know,
the teachers' unions is not correct, that teachers do indeed
back these and for reasons that you stated before. There's
been a lot of talk over the last several months,
(31:39):
in particular Trump two point zero about the failings of
the Federal Department of Education, and folks have different thoughts
on that. You know, this this bureaucracy that was created
in the Carter administration, came to life in nineteen eighty,
has been around for forty five years. Is now how.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Much has the Federal Department of Education, which only has
so much financial stake in all of this and how
much has that department impacted what we're seeing out there today.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So that's a great question, and we've got to remember
that the Department of Education, as a cabinet level department
was created in nineteen eighty. It actually started as a
cabinet level department way back in the eighteen I think
eighteen forties or eighteen sixties, and then it became demoted
to sort of a non cabinet position, and then it
got elevated again. So we've had a Department of Education
(32:43):
for a long time now, and its original job was
to survey the condition of education in America. What it
has become is a compliance factory. So I used to know,
I still know former Superintendent of Arizona, Lisa Graham Keegan,
a dear friend who used to say to me, I
get nine percent of my money from the federal government,
(33:04):
but fifty percent of my staff is used for their compliance.
And so the challenges you have with the federal government's
intervention and involvement in state education is a compliance challenge,
a regulatory and compliance challenge that makes it harder for
them to do their job. But it's important that they
do their job, like, for example, for special needs students
(33:27):
or to fund kids who need it. More So, there's
funding requirements that I think need to still be carried
out in American education. They don't have to be carried
out at the Department of Education, but they still need
to be carried out. The majority of Americans don't want
to eliminate the work of the Department of Education. A
slightly fewer are opposed to getting rid of it. So
(33:49):
what I'm saying here is the work of the Department
of Education is supported by the majority of Americans. So
fund education, make sure the kids of special needs are
getting the services. While they still support having a Department
of Education, a lot fewer of them are saying you
have to only do it through the Department of Education.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Well, I can tell you this, The Department of Education
has been weaponized over the years. And I know that
for sure because I have done some investigative reporting on
the Milwaukee schools system under the Obama administration, and you know,
the Department of Justice, dear colleague, letters into actual you know,
(34:29):
physical investigations and I'll say it, harassment of the choice
schools in Milwaukee. You know, that is the definition of
weaponization of justice in America, driven by politics. So I
can understand from that point of view that these voucher
(34:53):
schools in Milwaukee and school choice schools across the country
have misgiven about this Department of Education, and they should right.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
And so I remember those dear colleague letters to and
they were going after vouchers receiving schools in Milwaukee who
were serving special needs kids or who they say weren't
serving specially needs kids, but they were. This is a
real challenge that the former departments have been weaponized, particularly
through the civil rights and Look, we want to make
sure the kids who have special needs get the services
(35:28):
they need, but we don't want to assist the department
to be weaponized against a school type.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Yeah, no doubt about it. Kind of a dark chapter
for that department over the years. What happens, I mean,
this is the ultimate question. What happens if we don't
get this right And we've had failing scores for a
(35:57):
long time now. You mentioned how we compare on the
international scale not very well. What happens if we don't
get this thing straightened out and get it down the
right path.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Man, That's a great question and a good question to
sort of think about the end in the sense that
Rose Friedman said. Milton's wife said, if you can't read,
you can't write, you can't compute, you don't understand history.
Who's going to govern the affairs of our country? I
think there's a real question about the future of governance
of our country. And for a more modern idea, there's
(36:32):
a movie out there called Idiocracy that I would encourage
everyone in the listing audience to reach to watch. That
is the future that scares the heck out of me, right,
but even more importantly currently what's happening is if you
want to know why there's a distinction and a growing
and a growing distinction between the haves and the have nots,
(36:52):
it's education. If you want to know why there's growing
gaps between those who have money and those who don't,
it's education. And Act says to education right and access
to learning. If you want to solve the problem of
our stratification of society, then you're trying to give families
more options and more choices. That's what Milton Friedman said.
(37:14):
He said, the biggest problem is that we've stratified society
through our education system, and we it's gotten worse now.
I think with choice programs you'll see it getting better.
One metric we should be all looking at is in
choice states, which is our families earning more over time.
My hole.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Well, yeah, that's that's absolutely foundational to everything you just
mentioned about the future of this country. I want within
all of that the context of the disparity though that
is going on in education. And we know inherently that
there has been disparate education for a long time, and
(37:59):
you know, at some level that will probably never change.
That said, what about the disparity between choice options from
state to state.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
You know, we have growing.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
School choice programs in certain states, but teachers' unions that
hold the reins of power, particularly in blue states, are
stopping this movement from happening. How do you go up
against that so that everybody, every family, every student can
(38:36):
share in the benefits of choice.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
So I tell you what's going to be interesting. The
federal tax credit that just passed, right, So in the
One Big Beautiful bill, there was a federal tax credit
for scholarships program that passed or not program, a tax
credit that was passed, and I think that will help
blue states get on par with red states if they
choose to opt in. It will allow every participating taxpayer
(39:03):
to get a seventeen hundred dollars dollar for dollar credit
if they give to a nonprofit group that gives out scholarships. Now,
how incredible would that be in a state like Massachusetts,
where you could gather donors from across the state to
help children in public, charter and private schools. I think
what you're going to find though, is Blue states won't
take it, and a lot of the money from donors
(39:25):
is going to go to other states. And I think
that will help encourage blue state governors to opt into
this program over time, and they'll have more choices as
a result. That is good to.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Hear, But ultimately it's going to come down to the administrators,
to the governments in charge of all of this sort
of stuff, and if they make the choices for the kids,
then the kids will benefit. If they make the choices
for their benefactors to their campaigns, we're talking about a
(39:56):
worsening of this situation for those who for those who
we don't know, please give us a little more information,
a little more insight on ED Choice.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah. So, ED Choice is the legacy foundation of Milton
and Rose Friedman, and we have one simple mission. Every
child should be free to access every educational option in
America with all of the available dollars set aside for
that children. That's what we believe, and we achieve that
through our research, our training, our advocacy, and our litigation work.
(40:28):
And so we're excited to be I think now the
nation's oldest school choice organization in America supporting universal choice.
And so we have been going for thirty years to
carry out Milton's vision. We've grown from a state time
when we had six choice programs in America to now
I think we have seventy four in operating in thirty
five states, DC and Puerto Rico. There are now almost
(40:51):
half of children in America are eligible to sign up
for a program. This is great news. We're making huge
progress an ed Choice which can be founded EdChoice dot org.
It can be said to be one of the leaders
of that.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Effort, indeed, and that's where you can find that survey
we alluded to. Ed Choice is twenty twenty five Schooling
in America. Survey really comes along at the right time
when we're taking a look at the national nationwide report
card and where things stand today and what it suggests
moving forward. Thanks to My guest today Robert Enlo, President
(41:27):
and CEO of ED Choice. You've been listening to another
edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm at Kittle's senior
elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more.
Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.
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