FIRE Episode 27, Proud Liberal actually makes sense

Today, I had a very interesting conversation with Proud Liberal about religion. I was surprised to find that his points made a lot of sense. Listen to this podcast with an open mind and think about what he said.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/fire--6486198/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ready for a fun, informative, real experience. This is the
Fire Podcast. So today Proud Liberal has requested to come
onto this program to discuss religion faith. I don't even
know what type of conversation this is about to be.
You know that it's going to be an interesting one.

(00:21):
So Proud Liberal is connecting right now and he will
be right here when we get back from the break.
All right, we are back with Proud Liberal. What's up, man,
how have you been doing?

Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm fine. How are you?

Speaker 1 (00:38):
I'm doing good. I apologize about the space. I always
try to do like a community consensus. I mean, I
think I've mentioned this before to you as well, So
sometimes I.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Don't think they really want me to talk, so I'll
just it.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
But you don't have to avoid the You don't have
to avoid the podcast, man, Like you're very welcome on
the show. Anyone is welcome to the show because you know,
I have almost infinite patience. I mean I have a
pretty large supply of it. I would say that I

(01:25):
no matter who. It's not necessarily I mean you, anybody,
no matter who. I can have somebody on the show
and have a conversation with I have a conversation with them.
But some people just can't do that, and and then
some some environments aren't the best the best spots for debates,

(01:53):
and I I would I would think that if you
really wanted to have a debate on a space proud liberally,
you could probably start your own.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, I don't know how to do that. I've never
done it, but either way, I mean the podcast or
wanting too.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
Man, I love the podcast.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
But so we were talking a little bit beforehand about
having a discussion and I'm not sure I know exactly
where you stand in terms of spiritualities.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, I'd be happy to answer that for you. I
think that I feel like there is a possibility that
there is a God. But as for a definite answer,
I am I'm sure as of most you know, most Christians,
most Muslims or whatever are completely sure in their faith.

(02:53):
I'm not completely sure that there is a god. I'm
not completely sure that there isn't a god. So there
are a lot of unanswered questions, right, Well.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Okay, so that answers my first question, because I think
the first part of having a discussion like that is
I like to understand if you are unsure if there
is a God or if you're unsure which god or
something along those lines. But it sounds like basic off
of what you said, you're not really sure if there

(03:27):
is or there isn't a God. Right, That's fair.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah, And it's also fair to say that even if
I was sure that there is one God or whatever,
I would still not be able to give you a
definite answer. Not a definite answer, nobody can. But people
feel like they have definite answers right. They think that

(03:52):
there Most people, especially on the religious side, think that
they that their beliefs are right. And I don't know
if my beliefs are right. I mean probably not out
of one and seven billion people, and you know, one

(04:13):
God or whatever. I am probably not the lunatic, that's right,
I mean not about all things. I mean about certain things,
I am right, but especially not about all things, especially
not in abroad of a topic as religion.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Well, I definitely think it is obviously a complicated topic,
but it's also very important one. It's one of the
most profound questions you could ask. Is is there a God?
Why are we here? What is our purpose? Is their meaning?
They're very deep and important questions that I think we
should consider and ask each other.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's a natural human Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
And I was just gonna say that kind of like
with politics, right, Like you can rationalize why you believe
what you believe. Let's say you believe that there's two genders,
and you have your reasons. You might not be one
hundred percent sure you're correct, but you seem pretty strong
in your convictions because you've made some arguments that have

(05:20):
convinced you that that is reality, right, And I think
you can do something similar with theology.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
Okay, So I just wanted to say the question, you know,
where where do we come from? What's our purpose? Like
those are natural human questions. Those aren't just important questions.
That's questions that all humanity, for all, you know, for
eons of time, possibly more have asked themselves. And that's

(05:56):
why the Greek myths were made up. I mean, hey,
maybe maybe they aren't made up. I mean, there are
so many smart societies who had their own types of religions.
Take for example, the Romans. They had their own type
of religions that was sort of based on the Greek gods,

(06:20):
except rather than the god of sky being named Zeus,
his name is Jupiter. They have a bunch of different
names for them, so they and different types of culture.
So every civilized, every I mean even uncivilized, every great

(06:43):
nation has probably made made their own type of religion
and or has coined that as their national religion. I
would say that's great.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Well, I guess one place I want to start. I
have a couple arguments i'd like to give you that
maybe you'll find convention. And these aren't really my arguments.
A lot of other people have thought. You know, I'm
putting my own twists on it, but they're just kind
of things to consider. Maybe you've heard of somebody's before.
All right, are you familiar with the fine tuning argue?

Speaker 1 (07:23):
M no, I'm not.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Okay, So here's how I'll start it. Do you, by
chance know anyone in your life that is one like
a mega lottery. I'm not talking like it scraps off.
I'm talking about like a powerball type lottery.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Oh no, no, none of none of my things. Have you?

Speaker 2 (07:45):
No? I don't either. It's very rare.

Speaker 5 (07:46):
Ev Yeah, even if you didn't know somebody, right, So, uh,
if you would have told me you do know somebody,
I would think that'd be very rare. But I wouldn't
be suspicious at that point, right.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
What if you asked me if I knew anyone who
won the lottery, and I told you, not only do
I know somebody that's won the lottery, I know somebody
that's won the lottery every single week for the last
ten years. Would you believe me.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
I'd have to see some fat checks for proof.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
But okay, so let's think about it like this. Let's
say that I really did know somebody like an uncle,
and they won the lottery every single week for ten years.
From a pure probability standpoint, that seems suspicious, right, You

(08:44):
might be a little suspicious of that.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, I mean, if they won the lottery once, I
wouldn't be Suspecius, as you said, I wouldn't be suspicious, right,
But every week for the last ten years, I would
be suspicious as to who was drawing those numbers. And
if I were, if I were a person of faith,

(09:07):
I might think this person is blessed by God.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Would you be one thing you might consider. Let's say
it turned out that he knew somebody kind of working
behind the scenes with the lottery that was rigging the
lottery in his favor. That would be a pretty good
explanation for that, right, correct. So on a cosmic level,
we're in a very similar situation with the fundamental forces.

(09:35):
In fact, in terms of the fundamental forces and how
finely tuned they are, the probability actually dwarfs the example
I just gave you. So if you look at our
fundamental forces such as gravity, the strong clear force, those
are all determined by a couple of parameters and they
have constant associated with So, for example, gravity has cheap

(10:00):
there's a cosmological constant lamba that talks about the expansion
of the numbers. You have these different constants that adjust
the magnitude of these forces. So if you look at
a force like gravity, gravity's driving the expansion of our universe.
You know, it's what's attracting bodies together. If gravity were

(10:23):
slightly different and a very small fraction, even like one
in a tenth, so the power of ten, the universe
would have collapsed in on itself. And if it was
slightly stronger, then everything would have just been ripped apart.
Same thing with what's holding protons neutrons together with a
strong luclear course, it's so finely tuned so that you

(10:45):
can add any sort of complexity that it raises a
lot of interesting probabilities. So I don't know if you know.
Penrose is a very famous physicist, and he actually did
the calculations. He found the probability is one in the
power of ten or ten, so the power of ten
to the power of one hundred and twenty three, So

(11:08):
that's ten with ten zeros with one hundred and twenty
three zeros.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Afterwards, So that's one. So for the audience, what I'm
just in case I wanted to kind of make it
a little bit clear, So it's.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
One in.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
One zero like a whope, like what ten zeros and
then two hundred something zeros afterward.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
If you put it in the calculator, you get an
overflow error. So the probability that the constans are finally
tuned in such a way that we have any form
of matter is astronomically low.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
That is a very interesting theory, probably liberal. What do
you think about that, Christina?

Speaker 2 (11:57):
That's really cool.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
I know that I.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Knew something along the lines of that, but I didn't
know like how low the probability of that fine tune.
I didn't know the probability of the fine tuning.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, it's very fine tuned, and in my mind that
hints in terms of a probability point of view, that
it's not a cosmic accident. If that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Like, and the thing with probability is take, for example,
you're flipping a coin, right, that's your tails, So about
a fifty to fifty shot you get one or the other. Right,
But if I asked you, what are the odds you get?
You flip a coin twice and you get scales both times.

(12:50):
You actually multiply the probability, so one half times one
half is one fourth, so we're twenty five percent chance.
So when you're these fundamental forces that are finding tuned,
each one of them by themselves is incredibly finally tuned
to the point where there's not even that many atoms

(13:12):
in the known universe. There's more, there's less atoms in
the universe than there is possible configurations for these constants.
So you multiply it, the probability is down.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Wait, so I'm curious. So it's about as fine tuned
as I mean what, it's got the same probability of
Jeffrey Epstein breaking his own neck in that way, in
the way that the investigators found him.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
You can think of it that way.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
I'm just trying to I'm just trying to make a
little bit of a joke out of it, but at
the same time it's true. Yeah, So I mean you
you're right. You actually made a really good point that
the universe is fine tuned to the way, not the
universe itself, but the world. I mean, our our planet

(14:11):
is fine tuned to have that level of gravity, but
that level of gravity, and that level not even not
even a tenth of a percent more or less or
else it would be destroyed. But I think that's the way,

(14:31):
that's probably the way that all planets planets work, right.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Well, the planetary thing is not super impressive because life
can be pretty complicated. But when you look at something
like the strong force without the strong force keeping the protons,
because protons are positively charged, and protons are combined together
in the nucleus. But we know that like charges would

(14:59):
tell each other if you have two positive charges, you know,
just like when you rub a balloon on your head
and you put it on the wall, that sticks, same idea, right,
So it's keeping those positive protons inside the nucleus is
the strong force. But if the strong force was slightly different,
the protons would never be able to come together in

(15:19):
a nucleus and you would never have any sort of
You would essentially just have like healium in the universe.
You would never get anything complicated. It would just be
fundamental particles almost floating around in the universe. So you
would never even get to a planet. You would never
get to anything. You would never get to a molecule.

(15:40):
You would never get to a compound or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Dang, that's weird.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
It's very weird, right.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah, So what's your second argument.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
My second argument is known as the moral argument. I
don't know if you've heard of that one before.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, a lot of Christians try to pretend that they're
using it.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
Okay, so.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
It's true, right, Well, I don't.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Know which one you're talking about, but it's possible.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Most Christians, most people within the church.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Well, essentially, what the moral argument is saying is that
there exists objective morality and that is an argument for
the existence of God. And for example, when you think
of I don't know, transgender ideology in school, you would

(16:46):
say that that was wrong. That's not an opinion, it's wrong.
What they're doing, or if somebody were to illegally enter
the country, you would say that was morally wrong. It's
not an opinion, it's just wrong. Right, And that implies
that there's something outside of just naturalism, because if all

(17:10):
we all are molecules in motion, then there's no reason
why there'should be any sort of moral obligation for any
of us. With an animal. Let's say a cat eats
a mouse. We don't say that the cat is a
bad animal for eating a mouse. That's just what they do, right.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Right, is if you wouldn't say, like as if you
wouldn't say, like a human eating a steak is a
bad person, but if a human eats another human, that's
a no no for some reason. No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
If this right? And that kind of gets to the
argument of why does that apply to humans? I mean,
I don't know. Do you think that morality is subjective
or objective? I guess that's a good starting point.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 (18:06):
So do you think morality is dependent on the subject
the person, or do you think it exists outside of that?
So some people will say that morality is relative, meaning
it's just a matter of opinion. Others will say that
it's not a matter of.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
Well, a lot of people, like, here's the thing, a
lot of people, most people in the in the world,
think that they're right. I mean, they'll think they're right
on this issue. This mora l issue. So that would
kind of be a hard one because people, I mean,

(18:47):
including me, I think that I'm doing the right thing.
I'm trying to fight globalism. I'm trying to bring about
a new better world where we don't have, you know,
homeless veterans starving, where we don't have all all of
the all of this horrible stuff that goes on in

(19:07):
our world. So, I mean, see, that's a hard answer.
I'm sorry. I don't know if I can give you one.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
Well, let's take so it can definitely get great. I
don't just beat that, but let's take it easy. Is
it wrong if somebody were to take a baseball bat
and be a homeless veteran until they died? Is that wrong?

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Yes, that's true. That's true because I.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Mean, objectively or is it just an opinion?

Speaker 1 (19:42):
I think objectively, Like, it's not an opinion, I mean
doing a doing that to anybody in any other differ situation,
other than self defense would be horrible.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Okay, So you do agree that they're is an objective
framework for reality, even if it's complicated, even if we
don't necessarily know the right answer, we know that there
is a right answer, right, Okay. So I would argue
that if you accept objective reality, you have to then

(20:19):
say what the standard is that we're basing that off of.
And in my my argument would be then that would
be God.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
That that is certain, that is certainly one, that is
certainly one thing I'm just trying I'm just trying to
think of like I just think like out of like
human like decency, like and like any I think people
should base that on, you know, being a good person,

(20:52):
even I mean, regardless of whether or not that there
is a God, that should all it should ultimately based
be based on whether or not somebody is a good
person or not.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, I definitely agree people should be good people. But
the fact that we're even saying there's the standard of
good that we're striving for is an argument that there
is some objective truth that we're trying to reach. And
if you agree that there is this objective truth of
morality that we're trying to reach, then the question is, well,

(21:31):
what is the standard, what is the lawgiver? In sentence?

Speaker 1 (21:35):
President President Trump, President No, No, your argument makes sense,
So again, prob liberal, I'm gonna have to hand it
to you. The two arguments that you have presented are

(21:55):
are very logical arguments. I would I would have to
say that they're very, very logical, and if I just
kind of think and assess them for a few minutes,
like they're.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Right, Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
I never thought i'd say that. I never thought we'd
agree on something, but we have.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
First two arguments are essentially just trying to establish that
there is something outside of what we of naturalism, essentially
because some people will say, well, there is no God,
or they'll say that maybe there is, maybe there isn't.
I think the first step is to at least give

(22:40):
evidence and give arguments for why you would why it's
rational to believe that there is a god. And then
from there, I think it's a good idea to start
looking at evidence for which god. Because you've mentioned some
of the like the Greek myths and the willingness and whatnot,
and obviously there's different religions that are worth talking about.

(23:05):
But the next of the arguments start to specify the religion.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Well, I would I would have I would rather sacrifice
food on a fire rather than give up premarital sex.
I will say, I'm I'm sorry, I keep I keep
making jokes, but I'm trying to, like, I'm trying to
kind of light lighten it up and just kind of thinking,
just trying to think of I don't know, I'm just

(23:34):
trying to think. And I always just sort of lighten
things up when I'm trying to think. I don't know why,
but I always do that. So what's your third argument?

Speaker 2 (23:46):
What's that?

Speaker 1 (23:47):
I said, So, what's your third argument?

Speaker 2 (23:51):
My third argument is, in regard to the testimony the
life death end, what I would believe is the resurrection
of Jesus Christ. And would you agree that if I
was able to provide a convincing argument for that, that
would essentially confirm Christianity.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
I thought you were a Muslim slash atheist.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Don't worry about that right now. I'm just saying, in
this argument, would you be would you agree that that
is convincing? Like if you were able to convince if
you were convinced of the resurrection of Christ, that would
convince you of Christianity.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
I'd have to think about that. I would have to
think about that, what's your argument for the resurrection?

Speaker 2 (24:43):
So if we look at the testimony, there's a Depending
on where you stand, some people believe different things. So
I'm just going to kind of go through from the beginning.
Most people, even atheists, will agree Jesus Christ did live it.
Neither is he did in fact claim to be God.

(25:05):
Essentially no one disputes that, and even again atheists will
agree that he was crucified for saying that he was
fun And then the question is was he resurrected. So
I'm going to assume you're okay with everything leading up
to the crucifixion. So at the time he had a

(25:26):
following of people that witnessed what he did, and obviously
he was crucified, and his followers talked about seeing him
resurrected after the fact that he was crucified, And there's

(25:47):
a couple. In my opinion, there's three possibilities to explain this.
The first possibility is that they were telling the truth
and that they really did see Chrice resurrected. The second
possibility is that the apostles were essentially lying that they
never actually saw it. And then the third possibility was

(26:09):
they thought they saw him but they were misguided. Would
you agree? Those are three? The three name.

Speaker 1 (26:20):
Because we have no idea that the apostles were real,
what is our proof that the apostles were actually real?
I mean.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
They're pretty well even atheists and secular historians agree in
terms of letters, In terms of what we've read from
the Roman government, that would be quite shocking to find
out that there were no apostles. I mean some of
them worked for the Roman government. Even the Roman government

(26:52):
talked about the Roman government hated Christian was prosecuting.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
So so the Apostles were in the Roman government what roughly.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
Two thousand ye specifically.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
So did he talk about the resurrection?

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yes? And the reason Yes, he talked about it. And
like I said, the Roman government was not happy with
the Apostles. They weren't happy with Christianity, and for hundreds
of years after the Crucifixion, Christianity was outlawed in the
Roman Empire, and there was really bad punishment. I'm sure

(27:45):
you've heard the story of what Christians being thrown to
the lions with the lion dead.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
It was not during Nero's time, correct, yes, with the
burning of the Christians.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yes, so that was that was essentially the how Rome
was governed for two three hundred years or so after
Christ was crucified. So if you're willing to accept that
those were real people, I mean a lot of them
had jobs before they were apostles. They were some were doctors,

(28:23):
some were tax collectors, all worked for the Roman government.
So it really doesn't appear that those people are made up.
But essentially, if you're willing to accept those three possibilities,
I think we can dismiss two of the three. And

(28:46):
the first possibility is that the Apostles were aligned about
seeing Christ resurrected. The reason why I don't think this
is a very realistic possibility is because, like I said,
to be a Christian at the time you risked a
lot of prosecution. And in fact, the apostles all were

(29:10):
martyred for what they said they saw all For example,
so Paul, who was sold was a prosecutor of Christians.
He was essentially a mercenary for the Roman government that
would round up Christians and torture them, and he saw
something that convinced him that he was on the wrong side.

(29:33):
Ended up leaving that position to follow Christ and becoming
an apostle. And then he was eventually captured by the
Roman government, and because he was a Roman citizen, unlike
the others, what was considered a very charitable punishment, his
punishment was still a beheading. And at any point he

(29:56):
could have said that he was lying, that this movement
is fake, it was not true, and he still would
have been punished, but it would have been a less
severe punishment. But instead he was willing to be beheaded
instead of saying that that it was fake. Likewise with Peter.

(30:16):
When Peter was caught, he also had the opportunity to
disavow everything that he was preaching, to say that it
was a lie, but he refused to do it, even
though it resulted in him being crucified himself. So there
was a lot of prosecution of the Christians, including Thoms.
So I would say the reason why that's not about
the explanation is because it doesn't make sense why somebody

(30:39):
would die for a lie. If you were lying it
was all fake, you would confess and try to get
some sort of lesser punishment. But the fact that they
were willing to die for it shows that they were
genuine in their beliefs.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
That's actually a very compelling argument that makes sense. That
makes sense. I mean if so all of them were crucified,
all of them that saw the resurrection of Jesus.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Most of the Apostles, and a lot of other Christians
were prosecuted. Obviously not all of them were captured, but
a lot of them, like Peter all, a lot of
them were killed for what they were doing, and a
lot of other ones were prosecuted as well. Whether it
be sent to the lions then, like you were talking about,

(31:33):
so they faced a lot of prosecution and the risk
of being killed for what they were saying. And if
it was just a lie, I don't think they would
do that and sacrifice their life. I only think it
would make sense if they clearly believed that they saw
Christ resurrected.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
My other argument for this is that again, the Roman
Empire stopped Christiane he is a threat to their rule.
So let's say that when Jesus was crucified and sent
to his too, one thing that I would do.

Speaker 6 (32:08):
If I was in the Roman Empire in that situation
is I would go to the tune and I would
tak the body of Christ and I would create him
around the city to destroy the movement.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
You're like, no, he's not resurrected. Look, he's right here. Yeah,
but they never did that.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
That's true, That's very true.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
So I think that points to evidence that the tune
really was empty.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
So so you you've made a compelling argument for the
resurrection of Christ. So I'm now I'm just curious what
has turned you to the Muslim faith or Muslim slash chafeist, Like,

(32:59):
I'm I'm just curious.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
M hm. That's not really something I'm interested in. Honestly,
I'm mostly just interested in like these arguments and kind
of stuff that I've been learning about.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
All right, No, you go ahead.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
So there was another thing I wanted to talk about
because I've noticed from our text that you I think
it was about the Book of Genesis, and I didn't
know if maybe you wanted to talk about that a
little bit.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
In what in in what areas well.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
When I was texting you the other day, I was
just kind of trying to get clarification of what we believed,
and You're kind of mentioned like Genesis a little bit,
and I think I could maybe talk about it in
a little bit of a different fashion than maybe you
often hear it as that might be kind of of

(34:11):
interest to you. All right, go ahead, because I believe
you said that you didn't believe in evolution, you didn't
believe in estic state creation, right.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
All right, Oh yeah, yeah, now I'm remembering a little
bit clearly. Not now I'm remembering it a little bit
more clear. I just wasn't true about like what part
of gen Genesis I was talking about, right, Well.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
One thing about the Book of Genesis is I think
it's a really good story about humanity, who we are,
why we're here, why it matters. And it's a very
poetic book. And I don't think it's designed to be

(35:05):
read literally as this is exactly what happens. I think
it's supposed to be a symbolic representation of important things
that are true to humans even to this day that
still resonated with people, just as an example. I mean,
I'm not sure what's part wanting to talk about specifically,

(35:28):
but if you look at the Study of Knowledge and
that Adam and Eve's story, right, I think that's a
really beautiful way of talking about temptation. It doesn't matter
if there really was Adam and Eve that you took
an apple from a tree, because ultimately, what the story

(35:49):
is about is temptation, and when you're tempted by something
that implies that there's something inside of you that's telling
you that what you're considering doing is wrong, because if
that was happening, you wouldn't be tempted, you would just
do it. So for the story, there was temptation. There's
this kind of internal conflict, this moral conflict that Eve

(36:12):
and Adam are having, and the circuit. Again, there doesn't
have to be actually a snake talking. It's just symbolic
for this inner dialogue you're having, and that inner dialogue
convincing you that even though you're tempted and you're skeptical,
to go ahead and do it. And it doesn't have

(36:33):
to be an apple. It can be anything that is
bad that is tempting. It could be any it could
be anything. It's just a symbol for temptation. And I mean,
I could go on and on about.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
It, but right.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Essentially, what I'm getting at is it's very symbolic, and
I think it's very true. I think it's true in
a deeper sense than a literal sense.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
That makes I mean, that makes sense because it really
doesn't make sense that all of the world was somehow
created with two people. That don't mean a lot of incest.
Yeah so yeah, agreed, Yeah, it just doesn't make sense,

(37:20):
like how does how does a race of seven billion
derive from two people?

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Right? I mean eventually at some point there was you know,
it's it's it's less so about whether or not there
was actually two people there in the garden at eve,
and more so about Okay, for example, why are we here?
Was it a cosmic accident or was it purpose? Well?

(37:52):
There was purpose. Are humans just empty vessels like a body? No,
in terms of breathing the life into into So it
just essentially is establishing the fact that there is purpose,

(38:13):
People have purpose, people have temptation. It's a little bit
of a coutionary tale. And then they realized that they
were naked and they felt a change. Again, they don't
it's they don't have to actually be naked. It's just
representing if you've done something bad, you're ashamed. Right, being
naked is just like a symbolic version of that. Yeah,

(38:36):
So now they have a sense of this fall, this
need for redemption, and that's essentially the story is being
told in Genesis. Yeah, so I kind of considered vensis,
especially given the poetic rhythm, that it's a story and
there's truth in it. It's just because it's symbolic doesn't

(38:58):
mean it's not true. It just means that you don't
necessarily need to read it because the purpose is not
whether or not the earth was created in six days
or however long. That's not really the point that the
story was trying to convey.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
You know, that makes sense. I mean everything you've said
starting from the beginning of the podcast has made sense.
Thank you, like you've been studying your arguments very well.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Thank you. Another kind of just as an example, in
the declaration, right in the very early parts, it mentions
we hold these truths to be self evident, that all
men are created equal. If you took it literally like
a biology textbook, it would be wrong because everyone's different
with their genetics. But that's not the point of what

(39:55):
was being said. It was making a statement of human
value dignity. Right, So, even though it's not literal, it
doesn't mean that it's something to be discarded or that
there's not truth in it. And that's kind of how
I look at it. Synthesis.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
That's a very yeah, that's a very sensible way of
looking at it, because technically, if you're going by genetics
or whatever, all people aren't connect pretty equally. I mean,
certain meds work for different people, certain brains, certain people's
brains works different certain people's brain work different way, work

(40:34):
different ways. Yeah, I mean yeah, but that was so
that was a very good example.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Another kind of argument that might be worth talking about
is it's a little bit darker, but in some sense,
I think that the existence of evil also proves that
there's good, because they're kind of two sides of the
same point.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
That's true, and in certain people's lives it sometimes feels
like there's a lot of people no good. But but
you're all right, there's I mean, good exists. Evil exists,
I mean exactly.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yes. The other thing that I always think is interesting
is and again it's a little bit darker, but I
think they when you really look into the cases, it
should at least even if you're in a hard or
atheist it should make you really reconsider your position. And
that is certain documented cases of demonic possession, which I

(41:58):
want to start off by saying that there's a lot
of different cases, and most of it can be chalked
up to things such as mental illness, most of them.
With that being said, I think there are some cases
which I can talk about if you like, where mental
illness is not a good explanation for what has been done.

(42:25):
For example, there is the face of analyst Michael. So
this was a German girl, I think it was in
about the nineteen fifteen sixties something like that, and she
was having some stuff happened to her, and essentially they
weren't getting any sort of help with psychiatrists or medical professions,

(42:50):
and eventually one of the doctors actually recommended a priest
to examine and see what was happening. And it's actually
a very well documented case. It ended up being a
legal case. So there's you can look at the documents
in the court case. But one thing to look at

(43:12):
in certain demount of possession cases that should raise an
eyebrow are things such as the person having information that
they shouldn't otherwise happened. So in the case of Annaonice Michael,
she spoke very fluent Latin for example, the Latins and

(43:33):
Dead language. Most people don't speak it, and she didn't
know that yet somehow she was able to speak it
very fluent. The other thing that was interested was analyst
was aware of very private sins among people at the house. So,
for example, I think the priest had an issue with

(43:54):
like lust, and even though he didn't share that with
other people, now an alas was aware of it. So
essentially this is an example of someone having information. Mental illness.
I can understand that can make somebody act very weird,

(44:15):
that can make somebody kind of go crazy in a
lot of ways, but mental illness can't explain them having
information that they otherwise wouldn't have access to. It's kind
of like, let's say your kid had an imaginary friend, right,
you probably wouldn't think anything of it and that they're
just being kids. If your kid started saying certain things

(44:41):
like hey dad, why did you do this? And he's
mentioned something you did twenty years ago that you never
mentioned or talked about, and you asked them how they
knew about it, and they said that their imaginary friend
told them. You might be a little bit more concerned
about their imaginary friends. Yeah, that makes somehow they're getting

(45:05):
somehow they're getting information that they should have access to. That.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Yeah, that that that is weird, like she spoke Latin,
but who was there to who was there who spoke Latin?
Who knew that she was speaking it fluently?

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Though? I mean, well, so in the Catholic schurts they
sometimes do like Massi and Lain, So I would imagine
a priest would be decently through a lot of Catholic
schools would make you learn a lot. So it's a
dead language, but it she's sometimes in good policyst so
it makes sense that maybe a priest would know that

(45:50):
to a certain extent. However, it doesn't explain why an
Alice knew Latin. And it also doesn't explain how she
knew private information about other people.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
That's true, I mean, especially since like she didn't know
like what priests was was coming in, like she just
wink privately, Yeah read them or it's.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Weird, And again it's a little dark. They have so
it's very well documented. They even have audio recordings of
what was happening, and you can hear annals talk and
you can look it up at some point if you want,
like on YouTube or something. In my mind, that does
not sound like a fourteen or fifteen year old girl

(46:38):
at all. It does. I don't see how a little girl,
a teenage girl would even make herself sound like that.
And it's not like she got a bunch of attention
and like a bunch of money or anything like that.

(46:59):
Stand up dying. So again, it's not like there's these
worldly possessions that she gave from her.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Wow, like wow, So she ended up dying from the
demon or what what killing her?

Speaker 2 (47:20):
So she ended up refusing to eat, and at the
time of her death she weighed like sixty something downs.
She just refused to eat. If you've really her case
is a very long one. The only thing I heard
of her eating were things like bugs when she was

(47:42):
spassing out, ah, or like really disgusting stuff.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
What the fuck, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
She did a lot of very it's a very long
There's there's a whole bunch of information on it you
can look up for if you want. But and again,
some of that you could explain with mental illness. So
what I think is the most convincing part of this

(48:11):
is that she had information that she shouldn't have had,
and there's no, in my mind, good explanation for why
she had that information.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
Yes, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, maybe maybe not
eating and maybe eating bugs and disgusting shit. Maybe you
could chalk that up to mental illness, but the two
main things were her knowing about people's private sins and
also like her knowing how to speak Latin.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
The other thing that's interesting is, for example, holy water,
it just looks like regular water. It doesn't look any different.
So like if a priest were to bless something, you're
not going to be able to see the difference. So
she was basically unfazed by unblessed items, but items that

(49:04):
were blessed that she wouldn't have known, she had an
adverse reaction to, seeming to imply that somehow she knew
something was blessed. We again, basically just another example of
having information she shouldn't.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
I mean, I've seen a lot to convince me of
the bad, but not a whole bunch to convince me
of the good. So I mean that made that freaking
makes sense, dude, I mean, that's that's so crazy, Like
what happened to her is insane, Like I've gotta I

(49:50):
gotta go fucking look that shirt up, Like I have
to look that up. That's insane.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
You can listen to a bunch of documentaries on YouTube
about it, and they're pretty it's it's pretty interesting.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
It's there's a lot that I'm gonna see if I
can find her, like speaking or whatever.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, there's definitely because I've heard the audio clips Peoper
It's times. Ah, maybe you can see if I can
find it out of curiosity. Ah. But basically I would

(50:34):
argue that that is evidence for supernatural and yeah, one
of my arguments.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
Yeah, I want I want to check that out. I
want to say, I want to see what that's all about.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
Ship man.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
Appreciate, appreciate you for texting me that link. I'm gonna
I'm gonna error at the end of the show so
so that everyone can hear it and so that I
can hear it. Yeah, I would be very interested to err.
I heard a very little tiny.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Bit of it green Locked. Yeah, I interesting.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
Yeah, it's weird.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
It's it's it's weird, but it's a very interesting case
that's worth looking into, I guess. But yeah, those were
I guess some of my justifications. I suppose.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
I think you made some very very good justifications for it, man,
I mean very very good, very good points.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
Man.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
I I've honestly curious how learning about learning about things
like that has kind of changed your view and in
the entire about religion and its entirety.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Yeah, I mean, it definitely will change kind of how
you look at different things, because I've had different beliefs
when I was younger and compared to where I am now. No,
I kind of had a different opinion when I was

(52:37):
younger and or not.

Speaker 7 (52:38):
But that's kind of what I gravitated towards.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
So do you you just learned this in college this semester.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
No, just from reading books and stuff.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
Yeah, I was just I was just curious. I mean,
what types of books? What types of books did you read?

Speaker 2 (53:07):
Yeah? I have a list. Let's see if I can
find one in terms of So, there's one called what's
it called? It's all about this journalist that followed this
priest around and it was about it specifically about demonic stuff.

(53:29):
M o here, let me ask what it's all. I
can find it here.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Hell yeah, man, that's freaking awesome. I gotta read. I
gotta read some of that. Like you made awesome points.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
There, I can definitely get. Uh, there's a book about
the find two D argument. There's also people that I've
just listened to on YouTube. I could recommend people, but

(54:14):
I don't think that's the name of the book. Sorry,
I'm asking chat about what the book title is.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
No that No, you're good.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
I figured you were just reading trying to find out
what it was.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
Yeah, it's something like it's on the tip of my tongue.
I have a PDF of it somewhere. But it's a
really good one and it just talks about different cases
like the one that I talked about, and I thought

(54:52):
it was pretty compelling.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
For that's very interesting. I want I want to read
that one. Don't worry, you'll be able to think about
it as soon as the podcast ends.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
Yeah, I'm sure then it will come to me. Ah mhmm. Yeah.
I really want to find it now because it was
a really good book. Now I can't find it. But anyways,

(55:27):
that was Oh here, it is Demonic Foes. That's what
it's called.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
I should try. I should try finding it. I'll try
to have it. I'll have I'll try to find it
in an audiobook format.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Yeah, there's one on an audio audible that I'm looking
at now. But it is called Demonic Foes and the
author is Richard Goward. So that's a good one to read. Fuck.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Yeah, man, it sounds like you've been doing some heavy
duty research. You got those points down, Yeah, like you
understood how to explain them. You made very compelling arguments,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just think it's interesting
because it's a lot of very important questions, because it
leads to a lot of other things, right, like purpose
and meaning and stuff like that. And I think the

(56:44):
consequences of having a society that is not religious, I
think the natural consequence is going to be essentially dialistic. Ah,
and just the desegration of human value, you know, because
if we're just molecules in motion, then there's no reason

(57:05):
why our lives are really valuable.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
That makes sense. I mean, that's why. I mean a
lot of people have lost hope in life.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
I mean.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Shit, I mean rents expensive, everything's expensive. It's hard to
carve out a living.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
You don't.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
I mean, eventually, after all that and everything else life
has to throw at you, you start thinking.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
That way and just think about think about the two
kind of viewpoints. One is that you're a cosmic accident
and that ultimately everything you do will not matter and
eventually it will just end. The other viewpoint tells you
that God came in human form and suffered and died

(57:58):
for you. About which societies would value human life. You
know that's true.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
That's true because every life matters, right, Yeah, absolutely, I mean,
I mean I never advocate for the death of someone
or you know, wish for death on someone.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
I mean.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
Maybe people wish death on themselves, and I mean even
in some justifiable situations where they've got like terminal cancer
or something like that. But it's it's kind of uh,
I don't know any way other than endearing to say,

(58:47):
to know that I like that a god created us
for a reason, like someone that, like someone powerful enough
to create the world, and I mean everything around it
has to have done it for a reason. I mean,

(59:08):
I mean for I mean to conquer. I mean it's
a little late for that, that's I mean, you could
have done that yours I mean centuries ago, you know
what I mean. But yeah, you make very very compelling
I'm just I'm just trying to think around. I'm just
trying to think around all the information that you've brought

(59:33):
that you've brought to the table, see.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Your background in religion out of curiosity, I know, like
where you stood as of today, but what led you
to wear.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
Just I was always forced to go to church, always
board the ship out of me, and just it was
just the same drooling you know shit that you can
fall asleep to. I mean, it was never anything different.

(01:00:14):
But so I mean just realizing, like how I mean,
I think as a kid, you kind of don't realize
how hard life is going to be until you kind
of grow up. And in growing up and kind of

(01:00:34):
you know, dealing with all of that all at once,
it's just kind of it'll make you lose faith, wouldn't
you say?

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
It's definitely thanks Gonna be difficult on people, for sure,
But I think having faith is a good rock to
have in your life during those times because it gives
you real sure it's that whatever happens, like it puts
things into perspective different in terms of where you stand,

(01:01:09):
in terms of what you need, in terms of all
of that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Yeah, and sometimes in the midst of life that perspective
kind of doesn't come to you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
I mean, yeah, everyone, Yeah, that happens to everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
What do you think, what, Christina, what do you think
about what proble Liberal has been talking about?

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
It's very interesting, is that a different way of pointing
out those questions that we have in life.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
Very interesting. It's a different but compelling way of doing it.
I mean, I think you could really start a podcast
because a lot of people who are talking about religion
are really judgmental of the who don't believe. They're interested
in the people who already do believe and speaking to

(01:02:06):
them rather than speaking to people who don't believe.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Yeah, I mean that's definitely a problem because that's kind
of completely contrary to what was taught right, Like, I
mean obviously, like the famous adulture story from the Bible,
right like who he is without sincast the first stone,

(01:02:35):
stuff like that, it kind of runs contrary to the teachings.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Well, I like to throw stones, but I don't know
if I'm a I'm without stin without sins.

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
No, I mean you mentioned a good point, like and
it's it's because just how humans are human flawed, but
it's something that they should be working on improving office.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
Yeah, I mean, because regardless of regardless of what God
you believe in, oh, regardless of what God you believe in,
I mean, everyone should try. Everyone should try and strive
to be a good person, just if not for their

(01:03:30):
own you know moral character, like I feel I feel
good about, you know, being a good person. Like if
I saw if I ran into somebody's wallet, I'd say, hey,
who's wallet is this? Or I mean if it was
if it was in my apartment building, I'd turn it
into the office. I mean, but I'm not. I'm not

(01:03:51):
the type of person who would steal something from someone
or I mean, but I mean I can't. I can
be rule with my words sometimes. I mean I do
get angry. I mean I think everyone does.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
But everyone does.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
The point of living is to try to do better
and be better.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
What I sometimes think about in that situation is, you know,
when Christ was essentially saying to the Roman government like
I am the Messiah, which was not okay, that was
considered blasphemy. That's what you was crucified as they were
torturing again and you know, I'm sure you're familiar.

Speaker 7 (01:04:41):
With how they tortured him money like before they crucified him.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Yeah, I mean even the crucifix and everything. The crucifixion
itself was the torturing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Yeah, exactly, Like even leading up to that, there were
whips with metal rods and then that would rip flesh
out like giant fishing, but some most And one thing
I think about in those situations is, you know, as
he's being completely tortured and mocked and belittled, instead of

(01:05:12):
being mad at that, he was praying for those people,
which is I think quite a sign of strength to
not be mad, to not lash out, to not do
any of that, but to pray for and say that
they don't know what they're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
You know that makes sense? Yeah, I mean I've I
can't say I have the same reaction.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
No, I get mad in traffic sometimes, you know, like
it's hard, but I don't know. That's just one story
that sometimes I can think about because, like you, when
people do you wrong, it's easy to be upset at them,
but then you think about how he was wrong in
a much worse way than I've ever been wrong. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
Yeah, definitely does. It definitely does. And proud liberally You've
really got like you've really given me something to think
about after the show, you know what I mean, You've
really given me a lot to think about.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
Yeah, that's good. I mean it's kind of stuff I've
been thinking about for a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Yeah, definitely. So have you been have you been reading
things like like the Bible at all, Like after coming
to these types of conclusions, have you read the Bible
or anything or anything like that. I mean, I'm sure
you probably sneaked, you know, read know clianses of it
or whatever from time to time, But have you have

(01:07:07):
you read the Bible after after after experiencing that type
of it seems almost like an awakening in a way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
Yeah, I mean I've read it, and i've you know,
I've read it, and I tried to read stuff that
supplements it as well, so to learn the contexts and
stuff like that. Like for example, we were talking about
Genesis earlier and the Hebrew root Hebrew word that they

(01:07:40):
used was John, which was roughly translated today, which is
where the six days come from. But if you look
up the origin, it just all that it really needs
is some unspecified passes of time. It doesn't necessarily need
a day like how you and I think of it,

(01:08:01):
like a twenty four hour pass. It could mean a
day like we think that. They could be months or years.
It just means some unspecified amount of time. So I
like to read stuff that's someplem that's it as well,
so that I can also get proper context. So that's

(01:08:21):
just an example of like rereading Genesis and then reading
about stuff of the text gives you context on what's happening.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
Yeah, makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
Yeah, that was essentially what I what I do when
I go through it, and I read other things too.
Like I said, Demonic Pose is really good. There's a
couple of other books that are really good, and there's
a lot of stuff on YouTube that's pretty good, awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:08:56):
I want to check out that Dumont Demonic Fose book.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
It's a good one. There's an audio. Look, I think
you hit on YouTube you can listening to and it's creepy,
but if you like peepy stuff, then it's also kind
of entertaining in that sense. But also I think you
can learn stuff from it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Yeah, I definitely, and I mean, yeah, I want to.
I want to play that clip at the end of
the show of the of the girl talking from the
like second or two I heard it did not sound

(01:09:43):
like a fifteen year old girl.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
No, it differently does not.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
It doesn't sound I don't know anyone that you couldn't
like even like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
It doesn't really sounds.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
Human even yeah, even like an eighty seven year old
woman wouldn't sound that way.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Yeah, even if she smoked a lot, and it really
doesn't even sound human. I mean, you'll hear it when
you because it's like a minute long. And there's other
ones as well. I actually picked a shorter one. I
don't know. I'm kind of curious because we've kind of

(01:10:21):
talked about this for like a week, having this discussion. Yeah,
don't know, like how you anticipated this going or if
there were things in particular, and you I've just been
a blabbird for like an hour.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
I feel No, I did not expect this. I mean,
I don't know what I was expecting, but I know
I wasn't expecting that, like not of course, not in
a bad way, like in a good way. Like I
didn't think that I didn't think that it was possible

(01:10:55):
for us to come on any type of agreement on anything.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Yeah, Yeah, I don't know. Did you have anything you
wanted to like particularly, I've just kind of talked about
everything that I wanted to talk about, but I didn't
know if you had stuff you wanted to talk about as.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Well or well, A lot of things, A lot of
the thing things that have changed my mind that have
that changed my mind when I was younger about religion
was just Christians in general who just acted like everyone

(01:11:37):
needed to be perfect. And I mean, look like as
if as if the entire purpose in the Bible of
Jesus was not to forget, for it was not to
forgive is forgive everyone since not saying that everyone should
live lawlessly and you know, be a horrible person, but

(01:11:58):
just to say that, you know, you have to be
perfect and yeah, people, people really don't have. People really
don't have to be you know, people don't have to
be Jesus to believe in him. People don't have to
be perfect. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
It's kind of like politics in a way, right, Like
you could probably find a lot of people, even in
like the Maga circle that you might agree with politically,
but maybe personally or just how the mannerisms. You might
not mess with people and they might rub you the
wrong way. You know, I'm sure that those people exist.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
Yeah, yeah, they definitely do. I mean, I know a guy,
have you ever heard of bryceon Gray?

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Is that the Black Wrapper?

Speaker 3 (01:13:02):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
God, you know of him?

Speaker 8 (01:13:05):
Yes, Yeah, I'm familiar with him.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
So I guess he used to be like a Maga
type of rapper and then he and then he decided
Trump was not pure enough for him. And like he
goes on live streams and posts and stuff like that
and he acts like a freaking full I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
What do you think about him? That's hilarious. I could
not believe you've heard of him. That's awesome, that's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
Oh well, to be honest with you, I don't really
know what he's like talking about nowadays. I know he
was upset because he felt that Trump, I think, in
terms of abortion, was not pro life enough. I don't
really know what he tweets about or does now. I

(01:13:55):
just know that I know he makes music and stuff,
and I know he got in a little stuffle with
some other content greater.

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
Yeah, he gets in.

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
He does that every week. It's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
Yeah, well, like a physical fight.

Speaker 1 (01:14:13):
Like physical Oh my, Oh I think he boxes though, Yeah,
I think he boxes. But he is crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:14:23):
Like you ever hear his.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
If you ever hear his music, And I don't encourage
you to do so, I mean, but if you would
like to just for curiosity service, curiosity purposes.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
He is not a good rapper. He is not, I mean,
he rap.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
I think I'm familiar with some of his work, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Not good when when she said, like I'm just curious,
it's not good.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
I don't really remember what he said that. I remember
they were all like Trump's songs and might there's like
a song that says Donald Trump's your president, whether you
like it or not or something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:05):
It's just like, that's not the ship that you should
be singing about. You should be singing about life. You
should be singing about like what you're doing. You should
sing You should be singing about like a.

Speaker 3 (01:15:15):
Good day and ship like that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
You should.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
I don't know you, Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 8 (01:15:21):
What about the Tom McDonald guy. Oh god, he has
similar feelings about him? Yes, yeah, he's pretty cringe.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
Like I mean, okay, maybe if he's rather like if no, no,
not known, maybe he's know nothing, like just the way
that he talks, the way that he like, he's just
cringe like his to like the way he tunes his

(01:15:54):
ship too, Like it's cringe.

Speaker 3 (01:15:55):
It's horrible, it's bad.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Yeah, Like I think.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
I'm a maga person, Like I want, I really want
Trump to make America great again? Right, but I don't want.
That doesn't mean I want to really be like bumping
in my headphone some weird just stray why man, Like
I don't want to hear that ship when I'm like

(01:16:25):
jamming the music, like I'm jamming the music to relieve stress,
not to be like, oh my god, I gotta change
the damn song.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
Yeah. Yeah, that's what Bryce and Gray kind of reminds me.

Speaker 1 (01:16:39):
Yeah, I mean he does it a little better than
Tom McDonald's, but not much to McDonald's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
Pretty bad. I think he's the worst one.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Uh yeah, yeah, he's one of the worst ones.

Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
I did this song with that that was really bad
and don't remember what it was called, But there's that
what's your name? She used to be like a Democrat
back in the day, and now she's kind of the
Trump supporter.

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
Ah, I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
She was on that sitcom and she got in trouble
because she said in the show Obama looked like an
ape or something.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
Oh what's that roseenne Bar?

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Yeah, that's her, that's her.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
I haven't heard that one.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
I don't think that one is really It's called Daddy's song.
If you That one I think is sprite his worst song.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
No, have you ever listened to straight White male?

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
I don't think so.

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
Oh just listen.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Okay, Okay, Daddy's home is probably horrible. Okay, I will
give you that one. But freaking straight white male, just
I mean, just forget about what he's talking about, even
if he you know, even if he's talking about something
you don't like.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
The tune is horrible. It's horrible.

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
Oh remember we listened to that, Christina, just like kind
of as a kind of as a joke.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
Oh, we were just making fun of him for weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:18:25):
Yeah, he's pretty cringed.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
Even if I agree with you, that doesn't mean that
I'm not gonna say when you're fucking cringe like honestly,
please like just understand man, like that our country has
def has just turned into a ship show. I mean,
we've got people who are poor, we got people who

(01:18:54):
are struggling, homeless, veterans of all. That's one of the
main causes of our show, I would say. But we
every everything has gone to such has gone down at

(01:19:15):
such a level, like there's I mean, Americans are struggling
to get jobs. I mean, shouldn't our country put our
put it's put itself first, like just because like we're
in so much debt, we can't we can't keep taking
care of taking care of everybody.

Speaker 3 (01:19:36):
I mean Israel, I mean Ukraine.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
I mean it's it's not about like, it's not about
any of that. It's just about like, it's not even
about whether or not we agree with their causes or
want to help them. We just don't have the money.
We don't have the money to take care of our
own people. And that's why we wanted that our goal
to make America great again.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
Yeah. I found his lyrics here. I was just kind
of looking at them.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
No, the lyrics they are No, the lyrics aren't the
worst part. His singing is the worst part. Just get
to the chorus, Like, just listen to the chorus. It's horrible,
like in the way he delivers the lines. Yeah, oh no.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):
He has a song called Butthles buttholes that's what it
says on here because it shows his other songs.

Speaker 1 (01:20:40):
But you want to, Christina, I was thinking about having
like a date night where we, you know, watch movie
and just kind of play nice things about each other
and stuff like that. But you know what, let's just
listen to Buttholes by Tom McDonald.

Speaker 3 (01:21:02):
That sounds me. That sounds even better.

Speaker 1 (01:21:08):
Oh my god, it's hilarious. I'm so glad you pointed
that out, Pradler. But that's gonna be our exit song.
That's gonna be our exit song. I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
I don't really keep up with this song, so I
didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:25):
I don't either. I don't either. That's why.

Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
That's why I thought it was so hilarious.

Speaker 3 (01:21:29):
It's a song called freaking.

Speaker 1 (01:21:31):
Buttholes that's freaking crazy, Like yeah, just because he might,
just because he says things that I agree with, doesn't
mean that I will that I will not call him
out for being cringe. That's like some beause, some conservatives

(01:21:53):
are not that way. But I will call you out
if you're wrong, if you're cringe, like.

Speaker 3 (01:22:02):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
That's how everyone should be. I mean, I thought it
was kind of cringe seeing Joe Biden kind of struggle
through that debate like you, I don't know if you
kind of lean I don't know if you're watching like
the TV or whatever, but if you kind of if
you're listening through through like a phone, you can lean

(01:22:27):
in and hear him like between his answers, and he'll
go like, just like that, it's not good. Like Tom
McDonald's cringe and that was cringe too. I didn't like it.
I'd like, man, I'm glad, I'm glad we can have

(01:22:51):
a podcast where we can agree on something like we
can agree on agree on multiple things.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
Yeah, it was. I would say it's pretty good one
for the most part.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
If Yeah, definitely definitely productive. And I mean instead instead
of arguing with each other, we found common ground. And
I'm I mean, I think I think people are gonna
be shocked, but I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure this
episode gets out because I want people to I want

(01:23:24):
people to see this side of you, because I mean,
you brought up incredibly intelligent points that I wouldn't have
thought to have made. So I really, I really appreciate that.
And I mean I would I mean, no, bullshitn't at all.

(01:23:45):
I would say you have legitimately changed my point of
view on religion. I mean maybe not maybe not completely,
but that's the that's at the point where you got
to research, right. I mean, you've changed my mind as
much as much as a person can. I mean, now,

(01:24:06):
now now the job is left to me to research
it and say, hey, that's actually freaking accurate, that he's right.
I didn't think I would come into the show agreeing
with him.

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
But I just kind of.

Speaker 1 (01:24:26):
My mindset was just like I mean, as I said, like,
I don't believe in atheism. I don't think we came
from monkeys, but I didn't think that you would convince
me to research it as in depth as I am

(01:24:47):
as I am now. I mean, I would say I
was open minded, but just because of the fact that
I was just kind of like confused as to whole
as to how would all go down, Like I didn't
know like exactly what types of things you wanted to cover,
and when you brought up your.

Speaker 3 (01:25:08):
First point and.

Speaker 1 (01:25:12):
You were right, I was like, dang, he's going to
be right the whole length show.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
So a good one to look at while you're researching.
There's the case that you can look into. There's also
this guy called William Lane Craig on YouTube, well you
can find his videos on YouTube. He's a philosopher that
has done a lot of debates and discussions that are
really good. So I would say his he makes some

(01:25:43):
pretty good arguments as well, and he does it better
than I can articulate it, because that's kind of his thing.

Speaker 1 (01:25:50):
But but I will say you you articulated it. Well,
so I'm so now I'm really just curious, if you
don't mind me prying and and and I know you
said that that it was irrelevant for this discussion, but

(01:26:10):
I'm really curious. What is your reason for supporting Israel?

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
I support everybody, you know, I want everyone to d happy.

Speaker 1 (01:26:33):
I would say that. I mean, I would say that's good.
I would say I would agree with that. I mean,
but so, so what about Hamas. I'm just I'm just
I'm just curious.

Speaker 2 (01:26:53):
I would hope that they stop doing any bad things
that they're doing and sorry of the good people, you know,
So what, maybe they won't do it, but that would
be ideal.

Speaker 1 (01:27:11):
So a lot of Christians believe that, like his, like,
the reason for supporting Israel is that that Israel is
God's chosen people, and that means that they can basically
do whatever they want, including the genocide and Gaza, which
I mean, I don't I don't know about you, but

(01:27:33):
I firmly disagree with just because like, yeah, yeah, you
are gonna end up killing some civilians, but not in
the way, not in the way that they have you mean,
dropping two thousand pound bombs on buildings, holding holding Palestinians,

(01:27:54):
I mean, hoping that their bombs will get to the
tunnels in hamah Amas is In or whatever I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
But at the same time, crazy world out there.

Speaker 1 (01:28:08):
At the same time, though Netanya, who did fund Hamas,
who did fund operations like al Qaida, I mean, he's
been out here, he's been in Israeli politics for around
I believe, twenty years, trying to get us into a
war with Iran. I don't want to do that because
that causes much more suffering and and hurt. I mean

(01:28:35):
on the American people, because it costs a lot of
money to go to war, and on the American soldiers,
which costs even more. I mean, I think one American
soldier is incredibly valuable. I mean, I mean just because
I'm American, not saying that every life isn't valuable, but

(01:28:58):
I mean I am I am America first. I support
I support us trying to take care of us right,
not saying that we can't take take you can't ever
take care of other people. Not saying that I don't
ever support that. But I see Americans in a really

(01:29:23):
bad situation, and I also see our American politicians funding
other wars and I don't agree.

Speaker 2 (01:29:34):
With that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
Just because just because we've got people hurting at home,
we have to figure out I mean, so say, for example,
say for example, you're struggling, right, you're struggling with your finances,
but you really want to help your neighbor get through

(01:29:59):
college or something like that. Or you really want to
help your neighbor get out of debt or something like that.
You know what I mean, you really want to help
your neighbor. But you have to make sure that your
family I mean yourself included. But I mean that's not

(01:30:20):
the the overarching objective. But you have to make sure
that your family.

Speaker 3 (01:30:28):
Is and the and the people you live with are.

Speaker 1 (01:30:35):
Are doing all right. You have to make sure that
they are thriving, right, you know, not you know, not
making sure that they're filthy rich or whatever, but making
sure that they're not struggling. Like your kid's not struggling
with the drug addiction. You gotta send him to rehab
or I mean, your father's not suffering with cancer and

(01:30:56):
you got to pay for his medical treatment, right.

Speaker 3 (01:31:00):
I mean, like I.

Speaker 2 (01:31:04):
Just sounds like you're saying that it's morally wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:31:10):
Not that it's morally wrong, it's just it's just that
you need to take care of your household first before
you can take care of your neighbor. But also meaning
that if your household is taken care of and you
can take care of your neighbor and help him, help
him or her, that I mean that it's a good thing. Yeah,

(01:31:35):
what do you think about what I always said?

Speaker 2 (01:31:40):
Are you talking to me or are you talking to your.

Speaker 1 (01:31:43):
No, I was talking about I was talking to you.
I was just curious what you think about what I
was talking What I was talking about, you know, helping
helping your family first, and you know that including you
to an extent before you go and help your neighbor.
Nothing not saying that. Hell sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
Yeah, it's a complicated. Uh, it's a crazy world out there,
you know. And I think that you know, you can
only do the best that you can and try to
be the best person. You can't eat stay and try
to do it. Do you believe it's right and not
lying to yourself and say like I think I'm doing

(01:32:28):
what's right when you know you're not.

Speaker 1 (01:32:32):
You know, Yeah, I was, I was. I was. I
was relating it to I was relating it to you know,
our country as well, because.

Speaker 2 (01:32:43):
Didn't you want to get in a heated debate.

Speaker 1 (01:32:46):
You said, I, I wouldn't mind or something. I I
what I did say that, And I wasn't a bad
I wasn't a bad place, but I would I would,
I would be. I would be down for something like that.

(01:33:06):
I mean, what would you bring that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:10):
I was just curious if I kind of oh, did
it go.

Speaker 1 (01:33:14):
The no no, no, no no. I was in a
bad place. I was angry at the time, and I
just I took it out in places that I shouldn't have.
And no that you know you didn't. You didn't change

(01:33:37):
my expectations.

Speaker 3 (01:33:39):
You didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:33:42):
This this. I wouldn't say that this was the show
that I was looking for because I really didn't know
exactly what what types of points points you were going
to bring up. But I wasn't looking for an angry
debate to I really wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:34:01):
I just thought it was funny because you mentioned it,
and I feel like the opposite.

Speaker 1 (01:34:06):
That no, no, no, no, no no no, I was not.
I was not trying to do an a I was
not trying to do an angry debate. I mean I
would I would have been down for something like that like,
if that was the type of mood, that if that
was the type of podcast that you were thinking to have,
But really like, no, I'm not, I'm not disappointed at all.

(01:34:31):
I'm I'm actually this is this is worth more than
an angry debate, I mean, or or a heated debate.
I mean, you actually made some incredible points, proud liberal.
And it's not It's not that I was that I

(01:34:57):
was looking for an angry debate today. I was I
was looking for one. I was looking for one earlier
in the week and I felt like I had been
fucked over and I wanted to try to distract myself
and get angry about something else because I didn't feel
like just you know, chilling and listen to music. I

(01:35:17):
felt like just pacing and being angry. And today I'm
definitely in a more type of chilled type of situation,
which is kind of which is kind of why I was,
you know, making jokes. I was just kind of, No,
this is exactly the type of podcast that I would

(01:35:43):
consider a good one. I wouldn't consider it the opposite
of what I wanted. I honestly didn't know what I wanted.
I I was not sure what type of points that
you would bring up. And yes, it was unexpected, but
it wasn't a bad unexpected type of thing, you know

(01:36:05):
what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
Yeah, I actually did a little bit of preparation because
I thought about some arguments you might make, and I
was kind of looking at them and thinking about them
a little bit because originally I thought, well, so initially,
just based off what I kind of thought, I thought

(01:36:30):
your opinion was different than what it really was because
you kind of clarified it a little bit. This is interesting.
I kind of just thought you were like a I guess,
like an at atheist agnostic naturalist. Really, I think you

(01:36:55):
mentioned that you don't really believe in evolution, which is
a little unusual if you're an atheist. So that actually
surprised me quite a bit. So then I kind of reconsidered.

Speaker 1 (01:37:15):
Yeah, because I wasn't, Yeah, I was. I wouldn't say
I was an atheist at all. I would say it
was more of an unknown. I guess maybe agnostic would
have been the right type of term. But at this point,
I'm I mean, I'm not sure that. I mean, I'm

(01:37:39):
gonna follow up on the things that I'm going to
follow up with research on the things that you brought
up on the show, and I'm going to I'm gonna
look at them rather than just kind of, you know,
h let them, let let the podcast, you know, I

(01:38:00):
just record it and finish, and you know, I have that,
have that be done with just because frankly, frankly, I didn't. Frankly,
I didn't like a lot of times, I don't really
feel the need to kind of look up things afterward

(01:38:22):
because we're kind of a lot of times we're talking
about things that I know about, and on the former,
on the topic of religion, I really didn't know much.
I mean, other than the little bit of the Bible
and church that I've been to.

Speaker 2 (01:38:40):
But what kind of church did you get to? Curiosity?
Like which nomination you mean?

Speaker 1 (01:38:52):
Like I would just say christian I don't. I don't
know whether like I know, like there's and Evangelicalism. I
know there's a lot of different forms of Christianity, but
I would just call this one dull Christianity that you

(01:39:13):
could fall asleep to. I mean, no one ever brought
up these types of points. No one ever brought up
those types of points in the church, in the church,
or in or on X or even on other podcasts
where we've talked about religion.

Speaker 2 (01:39:34):
Yeah, I mean, most churches just kind of assume that
you're I mean, I don't know what church you look
to exactly. It sounds like I'm guessing some Protestant type church,
maybe like non Denomination or something, and sometimes they just

(01:39:56):
assume that people are at a circuin spot.

Speaker 1 (01:40:02):
Yeah, they're speaking.

Speaker 2 (01:40:06):
To think it's healthy to have like apologetics too.

Speaker 1 (01:40:10):
You know, what do you mean, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (01:40:14):
Just like basically apologetics is just like basically your reasons
for believing it, like your arguments.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:40:26):
I think it's important to cover as well.

Speaker 1 (01:40:29):
Yeah, Like they're speaking to the people who believe in
God and who believe in what they believe in, but
they're not speaking to arguably the most important group, which
would be the group who is questioning their faith, a
group who isn't quite sure. And now that might be

(01:40:52):
a little bit easier because it's online and you don't
know who's going to be watching. I mean, but I
guess if you go into a Christian church, they kind
of just assume that you're a Christian.

Speaker 2 (01:41:04):
Right, right, which is not always the case of course. Yeah,
I mean it's uh, it's a lot because you have
I mean, it's been honestly kind of a long journey
for me, but you kind of have to get to

(01:41:31):
the point where, at least for me, like it was
kind of similar to the way that I broken down
that you have to convince. You have to obviously be
convinced that there is a God first, and then what's
a religion, and then even then what denomination. So it's

(01:41:52):
a long process, but determining which denomination was for you
is not as it's a little bit. It's it's a
different process. It's just learning about like the differences between

(01:42:13):
like what one denomination believes and what another does, because
there's actually quite a bit of differences. Yeah, Like I
mean you can argue, for example, like Mormonism and a

(01:42:35):
the uh, why is it eluding me right now? The uh?
You know the Mormons. And then you have Daho's Witnesses
that are kind of their own thing. They're almost not
even really part of the Christian Church.

Speaker 1 (01:42:59):
Well, I will tell you this. I'm in jo I'm
in the Jehovah Witness Protection Program. Non't No, I'm just
doesn't there.

Speaker 2 (01:43:09):
They're pretty interesting if you look into their history. They
were kind of like a h the doomsday cult kind
of they predicted by the end of the world.

Speaker 1 (01:43:27):
Yeah, like, uh, I'm sure they were knocking on everyone's
doors in twenty twenty eleven just saying the world's gonna
end next year, right before somebody slammed the door.

Speaker 2 (01:43:38):
Yeah, so that's uh interesting, But that's a whole other thing.
But yeah, it's it's pretty interesting. It's it's it's it's
an interesting and important concept I think, and something I

(01:44:02):
should be talked about because it's pretty pretty important. I mean,
okay said.

Speaker 1 (01:44:11):
I mean, I think we could definitely have another one
of these podcasts, man, like I I definitely, I definitely
think we can because we I mean you kind of
you kind of talked about your point and kind of
proved it, and it was it was hard for me,

(01:44:31):
Like even if I was in a like real weird
type of mind state where I was like angry or whatever,
it would have been hard for me to have said
anything intelligent that would have disproved your theory.

Speaker 3 (01:44:43):
Like it would have been hard.

Speaker 1 (01:44:44):
For me to say anything like you made it almost
disprovable in a way.

Speaker 3 (01:44:51):
I mean, maybe maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:44:53):
I'll go look up like kind of like the crucifix
like the crucifision, crucifixion of Peter and the execution of Paul.

Speaker 2 (01:45:07):
Yeah, but yeah, I mean you didn't talk to grom too.
I'm sure it is stuff. Like I said, you two
has a lot of good resources.

Speaker 1 (01:45:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
Yeah, that's the other thing. Learning a lot about the
Roman laws back in the day. There's a lot of
interesting documents on that.

Speaker 1 (01:45:24):
I know they I know they despised Christians.

Speaker 2 (01:45:29):
Yeah, it was seen as a threat.

Speaker 1 (01:45:31):
So when did so what did they? They will Basically
at that time they believed in basically the Roman gods Jupiter,
I kind of remember some of them. Neptune, well, Neptune
was Poseidon.

Speaker 2 (01:45:53):
Well, it had a lot to do with the fact
that by claiming that Jesus was the Messiah, which is
what he did, that was considered blasphemy the Pharisees for
him to say that. So the Romans, it wasn't the

(01:46:17):
Jews because they were.

Speaker 9 (01:46:18):
Upset about it, but it was ultimately the Romans that
crucified him and those who said that he was, you know, God,
they were.

Speaker 2 (01:46:29):
Also participating what they considered blasphemy, right, So that's why
they didn't like it, and that's why it was basically
against the law for many years, and there was they

(01:46:52):
were kind of scapegoaded a lot. I mean, there's a
lot read about it. There's also has to do with
the fact that Rome wanted the people loyal to Rome.
They didn't want them loyal to a religion. And if
you didn't believe that their emperor was like divine, that

(01:47:15):
was seen as not being loyal to the Roman Empire. Oh,
so that was a lot of times they had. There
was a lot of that. They had to be kind
of sneaky about it. They still have to be sneaky
about it in some places around the world today, in
the Middle East and in China, you can get in

(01:47:37):
a lot of trouble for that, right, So there was
a lot of attacks on Christianity by the Roman Empire,
and that was true for quite a long time.

Speaker 1 (01:47:55):
Wow, it seems like China really doesn't is kind of
similar to the Roman Empire, right because they've i mean
they've got the we are death camps, where they've got
the muslim where they've got a lot of Muslims, and
and and and of course prosecuting Christians and stuff like that.

(01:48:18):
Like leness say, they probably don't want any type of opposition.
I mean the China. Basically the Chinese Chinese Communist Party
is considered gods over there.

Speaker 2 (01:48:32):
Yeah, well that that's definitely part of it. And they
don't want the competition. And it was easy to kind
of attack it because it was mostly popular among kind
of the lower h social status people have run at
the time. It wasn't popular among the upper class because
the upper class was more comfortable. That's kind of how

(01:48:54):
things were at the time of Rome. You know, Christianity
mostly spread poor people, your slaves and people like that,
because again, kind of like we were talking about earlier,
it gave them a different viewpoint on the world in
terms of human value, human dignity. Yeah, and apern Era,

(01:49:17):
which he talked about earlier, Like he blamed Christians for
the fire of Rome, and because of that he used
that as an excuse. What are the excuses to prosecutor
because they were just seen as you know, problematic. Yeah,

(01:49:39):
and like you said, disloyal because if they said, for example,
Jesus Lord, well that implies that the emperors, which was
seen as very disloyal to Rome. And you know, Rome
was a pretty wild It's not talked about a lot,

(01:50:02):
but think about like a lot of the slavery was
very common, think about like the Gladiators and the Colisne them. Yeah,
and a lot it was a pretty morally bankruptcy place,
and a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:50:16):
Of their a lot of their emperors were crazy and
the reason the reason behind that, at least partially the
reason was because they drank from lead goblets. Goblets. Yeah,
so I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:50:33):
They had some interesting world views. Yeah. Yeah. And another
thing they would do too, is it I mean it's
almost like I guess abortion, where they would they would
do it specifically for girls because they wanted maybe more
boys for example, essentially trying to like control the population

(01:50:56):
to be a certain vendor luck. But I mean, like
just you could just go pillage of land and then
take their women and children as slaves. And then compare
that to what Christianity was teaching, which is stuff about
like a sexual ethics, right, like you can't just have
a sexuality that's an ethical right, that all people have value,

(01:51:21):
or that there's a like loving your enemy. Those are
radically what the Roman Empire wasn't silling into their people.
So it was seen as a threat to the Romans
a lot of the time. For a lot of those reasons,

(01:51:46):
and the prosecution led to a lot more, probably the
spread of Christianity. Yeah, because they martyred people. You know,
it's kind of like, I mean, you could say with
the Trump thing, right, like the assassination attempt probably gained
him supporter. Yeah, it wasn't actually killed, but it was
just like a martyring type of situation.

Speaker 1 (01:52:09):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (01:52:14):
I mean, just I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:52:18):
Think about like the belief somebody has to have the
face someone has to have where they would just courageously
die for it. You know, that could inspire a lot
of people.

Speaker 1 (01:52:33):
Yeah, definitely came.

Speaker 2 (01:52:35):
No, you're right, yeah, I mean that's kind of how
Rome was until Constantine, of course, and he ended up
making he ended the prosecution and legalized Christianity. But that
happened like in the year three hundred a d. So
you're talking about three hundred years after a little less

(01:52:59):
than three years after increase of fixion.

Speaker 1 (01:53:06):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:53:07):
I mean that's.

Speaker 1 (01:53:09):
I mean, that's at least probably at least about five
hundred years of prosecution.

Speaker 2 (01:53:19):
Yes, they were prosecuted for a while, and essentially it was,
like I said, this underground movement for a couple of
hundred years and then slowly started to become more and
more of the norm, which, yeah, very interesting history. Look,

(01:53:40):
you know, like the Roman Roman history and kind of
how things were back then. It was actually pretty crazy
some of the stuff that was normal. It was just
fastly different from that. I mean, think about like the

(01:54:02):
gladiators and just killing people for inner two, Like, that's
pretty crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:54:08):
No one would do that nowadays.

Speaker 2 (01:54:12):
No one do that nowadays. But the thing you have
to remember is a lot of the gladiators were also slaves.
They didn't have a choice. Most people on their free
will wouldn't want to be a gladiator because it would
eventually lead to death. Right, but you could force slaves
to fight, and they don't have a choice.

Speaker 3 (01:54:33):
Room, No, they don't.

Speaker 1 (01:54:37):
Yeah, they don't have a choice to fight.

Speaker 2 (01:54:42):
I mean at the time, there were essentially no protection
for slaves in Rome. You could do whatever you wanted
to your slave, and it was not seen as like
a person. So I mean this they did quite a
bit of morally questionable things that Christianity kind of completely criticized.

(01:55:10):
So that's probably part of the reason that.

Speaker 7 (01:55:14):
Ah, the Roman government was so anti Christian for a
very long time.

Speaker 1 (01:55:25):
Yeah, and you're right that it probably persuaded a lot
of people towards Christianity. Man, And you've and I will
say it again because I'm I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just
perplexed that you've just been right this whole show. You've
been right this whole show. Like I never I never

(01:55:48):
thought I would say this. I mean, you've got a
maga guy who said that you were right on You're
you were right the entire show. And I wouldn't even
consider this a debate, man, Like, this is just a
genuine conversation and I'm glad to have been able to

(01:56:08):
have it with you.

Speaker 2 (01:56:09):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:56:09):
I appreciate you.

Speaker 2 (01:56:11):
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed talking
and I feel like I did a lot of yapping,
but it was in hell.

Speaker 1 (01:56:20):
Yeah, man, I appreciate you. And you're welcome to come
back to the show anytime.

Speaker 2 (01:56:25):
All right, sounds good. I'll text you again sometime in
make it happen.

Speaker 1 (01:56:31):
Sounds good?

Speaker 2 (01:56:33):
All right, talk to you later, you too.