March 16, 2026 • 51 mins
In this episode we chat with the founder of Austin Justice Coalition, Chas Moore. Chas is a progressive leader on the themes of racial and social justice. In this interview he discusses issues such as race, intersectionality, empathy, immigration, oppression, and more.
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(00:00):
Disclaimer For all ideological interviews, this podcast is a
space for thoughtful conversation.
Hosting a guest implies neither their endorsement nor rejection
of our views, and a guest's appearance implies neither our
endorsement nor rejection of their views.
We encourage listeners to approach each conversation with
an open mind and emotional control, and to evaluate the
dialogue on the strength of the arguments presented, not one's
(00:21):
prior assumptions or biases. Once institutions crush the
spirit of people, that is how they ultimately win and that is
how they placatas. That is how they keep us just
like believing that there's nothing possible to create the
world that we want. We got we got to build that
middle like and, and it's not going to be easy and it's not
going to be fast, but we we haveto rebuild the middle because
the middle is where the magic happened.
(00:42):
Middle. There's not a middle class.
There's no middle area for politics.
Like you can't even propose to meet in the middle because
people on the other sides feel betrayed.
Hello, and welcome to another edition of Ideological.
(01:03):
I'm your host, Zach Lee, and today we have a special guest.
We have Chaz Moore, who's going to be chatting with us about his
organization. Chaz, thanks so much for being
on the podcast. I mean, thank you all for having
me. I'm.
Excited. I'm excited about this one.
I think this one will be a ton of fun.
OK. What I want to do is I want to
kind of set you up to to take this really any direction that
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you want to go. My first question though, for
those who might not know who youare, can you tell us a little
bit about you, your background, how you got involved in social
activism and that kind of stuff?Oh man, where do I begin?
So I'm, I'm Chaz Moore, I'm the founder and right now I'm the
organizer director at the Also Justice Coalition.
(01:45):
And that Dawson just coalition is basically your advocacy
activist organization. They got started in 2015, right
around the time of this really intense saga of police brutality
against, you know, unarmed blackfolks.
And the the whole reason we got started is because, you know, I
was going around to a lot of legacy organizations such as the
(02:08):
Urban League and N double ACP, and they were telling me I was
too loud and too radical. So I had to, I had to be on my
own table. And I also wanted to, I also
wanted to make sure that we had a space and a platform where
young folks, women, queer folks,you know, does anybody that that
wanted to fight for a better world could come and join
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without. Like you don't have to wear
suits and ties and things of that nature.
And yeah, I think just, you know, really growing up in
Houston, TX, I was raised by my grandma.
My mom passed away when I was 7.I didn't meet my dad until I was
17 or 18. And just really having the, the,
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the luxury, when I look back at it, of having, of having a
grandma who was born in 1935 in rural Louisiana, You know, I had
a very keen understanding of therural, I think at a very early
age meant like probably too early compared to like most
folks. But so all, all of that stuff
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combined has helped shape me to be the person I am today and do
the things that that that we've been able to do.
Awesome. Well, thanks for that.
Tell us a little bit about yoursspecifically.
I know you're involved with a bunch of different
organizations, but your primary one being Austin Justice
Coalition. Can you tell me a little bit
about a little bit about that? Yeah, again, man, you know,
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right. How old was I in 2015?
Eleven years ago? I was 27.
I think that's right, man. And yeah, man, I just really
wanted to have a space in Austinwhere people could dream
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together, you know, because I'm,I'm one of the few people that
actually believe we don't have to wait till we die and go to
heaven or some afterlife to livein utopia.
I'm not saying that the earth isever going to be like 100% like
good and pure, but I think we can get pretty close to that.
And I wanted to build something for dreamers and people that
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have faith and hope that we can build worlds and systems where
people have the things they needand we're taking care of one
another and things of that nature.
And also to stand up against things that are wrong.
You know, again, at the time when I wanted some help and
assistance from the legacy organizations, they told me I
was too loud and too radical andtoo bold.
So I said cool, you know, just Ijust build something for me.
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And I tell people this all the time because I'm originally from
Houston, TX, right? Which is a really black city.
So when I got to Austin, it was a culture shock because I've
never seen as many white people in Mass ever.
Oh, it's like the San Francisco of Texas.
Yeah, Austin is it's Austin is it's own place, Yeah.
Yeah, I, I, I, I joke a lot thatAustin is like white people's
Atlanta, you know, and, and, andI, I love that for them.
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But so, yeah, you know, it was, it was a, it was a few things
happening when I first got here that also helped shape my
outlook on what I wanted to do and some of the initiatives that
I had. So AJC was born and we've been
we've been rocking since then. OK, very good.
(05:23):
OK, so that's that's kind of whoyou are, the main organization
you work with. Now I want to get into just some
specific things I know that you're very passionate about.
Give us your definition of social justice, because this is
a term that people throw around.Sometimes they use it correctly,
sometimes they misuse it. Tell us what social justice is
and is not. Well, you know, I, I do think it
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is a, it's a loosey goosey term,right?
I think a lot of people say it and we all have different
definitions and different lenseson it.
For me, social justice means that as a society, as a global
community, we are doing the things we need to do to make
sure people have the things theyneed.
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We're also holding people accountable when they mess up,
but not punitively. And it's, it's just making sure
that everybody can feel seen andheard right, making sure that
everybody understands their value and their importance and
the greater good of, of society.And I think for me, that means
that we have to reform a lot of our institutions.
That means we need a better education system.
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We absolutely need a better criminal legal system.
We, we need better pay for people because things are
getting crazy and we, and, and again, we just need some kind of
systemic or, or or institutionalized approach to
make sure everybody can have what they need and everybody's
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well taken care of. And sometimes that means that,
you know, if, you know, if, if you and I as men, we know that
we have like privilege as men todo and say and move in certain
ways. That means we should be using
that privilege to make sure we can raise deliveries for other
folks as well to make sure they have those same privileges as
well. You know, like it's, it's
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almost, and people hate when I say this, but like it's almost
making sure that nobody's special because we all are, you
know what I mean? Like like like nobody gets to be
the end all be all or are are the the the superstar in class
is because like they look a certain way.
Are they of a certain background?
Like, you know, everybody has the potential to be special and
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we need to give people the toolsto tap into that.
Right. Like that's that.
That's a little bit, or in a short version of what social
justice means to me. Yeah, thank you.
So I want to mention something you brought up you, you
mentioned the word systemic as far as like fixing the problem
institutionally. Can you chat with us a little
bit about, you know, isn't justice systemic?
What does that mean for those who may not know versus, you
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know, individual or something like that?
Oh man, is injustice systemic? Yeah.
And what does that mean? You can take this wherever you
want. Do these, I know these questions
sound kind of formal, but we cango any, any direction you want.
So feel free to take the question the way you want
because I, I mainly want to hearfrom you.
I. I, I think I, I think a lot of
times it just happens to be systemic.
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I don't know if it was ever sought out that way.
And a lot of times it just flat out is right.
You know, we've had laws on the books that said people that look
like me with three human. We've had laws on books that
said women couldn't buy houses or have bank accounts.
We've had all type of, in my opinion, discriminate
discriminatory laws that what kind of dictate who can and
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can't, who can and can't come into the country.
So, so in those instances, right, where you have people
that can only go to the back door of an establishment, all
use certain water fountains thatof course that's systemic.
But then I think there are some other instances of just
collateral consequence, right? I think when we think about
domestic violence, right? I think domestic violence
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happens to be one of those really weird things to where if
if a guy tells us that he's being domestically abused by his
woman, nobody's going to believethat.
Nobody's really going to go up in arms.
Yeah, they'll. Probably just, they'll probably
just like push back. They'll probably laugh at him,
make fun, you know what I mean? And so like even that is it like
injustice, right? Because if we really care about
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domestic violence, we shouldn't care who the abuser is or who
the victim is. We should make sure that we can
have some type of road to like redemption and some type of road
to rehabilitation and repair. So I think a lot of times it, it
can be, but like, I don't want to just say like it's completely
or inherently systemic because Ithink a lot of times these
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systems just were built and designed without the proper
empathy in, in, in human care tomake sure that a lot of these
loopholes didn't exist. Besides the very racist laws
that weren't like people know what they were doing when they
did that. But, but, but, you know, I, I
think it's, I think it's just happens to be because we seem to
put value over the systems more than people.
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And I think that's how you get injustice.
And I think another thing that happens is that time and time
changes. We evolve, side evolves, right?
And I think with that, we shouldchange and, and, and, and maybe
review how we implemented some of these things are, are so many
systems? Are they even needed anymore
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because we've come so long and so far as a society?
So I, I, I do think injustice can be systemic.
I don't think it just necessarily is all the time.
OK, dude, so you, you brought upsomething I thought was
interesting mentioning like the segregation and the water
fountains and that kind of stuff.
Chat with me because I know you're also very much involved
in different kinds of social justice, kind of the
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intersectionality of different groups.
But I also know that when it comes to race relations that
that's also kind of a Forte of yours.
So what would you say how, how is the issue of race similar
today to in the civil rights movement in the 60s and how is
it different in your opinion? Oh man, it, well, I, I think
it's very much similar because there's still so many gains to
be had by a lot of working classpeople that just don't happen to
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be white. All right.
I think I, I, I think in, in, inthe more I grow in the more I
read and the more life I live. I'm, I'm trying to figure out
different ways to talk about it because I really, I don't
particularly want to make peoplefeel bad about what the things
their forefathers and four mothers that have done.
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But I think it's imperative to, to have people understand that a
lot of the wealth and privilege that you have comes from, again,
these systemic injustices that happened in the past, right.
And I think when it comes to race relations in America, I
think it's, it's very fascinating to me because I, I
think what we're seeing right now is that white, black,
yellow, whatever. It's, it's very much more of a
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class issue. And I think I'm trying to really
convince people that we, we, we have to come together at some
point. We have to put our differences
aside. We have to, we have to learn how
to deal with the, the very sometimes hard just tension that
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we have in this country when it comes to race relations, to make
sure we can work together to build a more equitable and just
society for all. But, you know, I think the
similarities come in effect thatthere's still much to be gained
by a lot of minority groups in, in, in the States.
But I think it's different because I, I think we're seeing
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more of a, a groundswell of, of white working class people
understand the need for racial justice, right?
I, I think, I think we see this really concerted effort by a lot
of at least working class white Americans that they understand
the, the systemic issues of the past and how they affect today.
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And I think there's some appetite to really move
different. And, and even though it's not,
it's, it's nowhere near easy. I'm not saying it's nowhere near
where it needs to be, but I, I think there seems to be an
understanding of, of what's of, of, of the, of the actual
problem, right? I, I think for a long time there
were activists and organizers and groups like mine that were
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saying these things, but it was just kind of going in one ear,
not the other. But now, I think thanks to the
BLM movement from, you know, like the past decade, I think
people are kind of leaning in more to understand what white
privilege is and what white supremacy is and what all these
things are to make sure that they're not ascribing to it and
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to make sure that they can effectively combat against it,
right? And another thing is I think
that we have that advantage, right?
We have so much more tools than they did in the 60s, right?
Like we have the Internet, we have tools like this to where we
can have conversations about whatever we have social media to
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where we can get information outin mass in the moments, right?
And I, I, I think, I think a keypoint to look at was in 2020,
after George Floyd, you know, all 50 states were protesting.
And that's because of the technology that we have that
like, and, and it was COVID, right?
And I tell people all the time that because of COVID, we were
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not able to go to happy hour at Starbucks.
We were not able to go to the bar and get our favorite drink.
Most of us, some people were still being like, you know,
assholes and going outside. But like, most of us were
collectively sitting in the house doing what we need to do
to protect one another. And when that moment with George
Foley, it happened when he was murdered by that officer in
Minneapolis, we all collectivelywatched that.
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And, and your thoughts on it maybe different, but there's no
escape on that. A vast majority of the nation of
the world saw that moment and that's how we were able to
organize an entire country and around the world, globally,
people were protesting everywhere because of the
because of the ability to use platforms such as social media
and, and, and just really organize and talk to people that
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we wouldn't have been able to talk to as easily back in the
60s and 70s, right. You know, like if you, if you
wanted to do a protest or a big rally, you have to get on the
phone and hope they pick up and you have to go like on the
church tour and you have to likego city to city.
And now it's just like, you know, I can just DM you and I
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can ping. I can ping you until I get some
type of response. So like, like we're very much so
more able to be connected now than ever before.
And it's only getting crazier crazier, crazier good and
crazier bad. Yeah, I mean it's our
generations like printing press,like ideas can be disseminated
so much quicker. OK, so, so with with those those
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things and the the problems we still see with race and these
kind of things, what do you believe the solution is to those
issues? So like if if some things are
systemic, if they're these things are still problems, which
they are, what do you believe would produce long term change?
What what's the solution in in your view?
I, I, I think one of the, the, the, the first steps to, to
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fixing a lot of the issues around race and race relations
in our country is, is empathy. I, I, I, I think, I think people
have to be willing to actually listen and understand the
stories and lived experiences ofpeople that don't look like
them. And, you know, like, so when
black people are talking about police issues and if, if you
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happen to be a white person and your first response is, well,
you should have just complied, You know, I, I think it's, I
think it's kind of problematic because it's excusing the lived
experience of this person. And it's also like going into
this notion that cops don't do bad things sometimes, right?
Like, I'm not saying all cops are bad, but like we know we've
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seen it over the last 10 years for sure that sometimes cops can
go too far and do really, reallyfatal things that can lead to
black people being or anybody being being killed.
And I think we, I think we have to be willing to listen and tap
into another side of ourselves that that we're not familiar
with. And I think that also goes along
with empty because as a man, I've had to listen to and as a
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straight man, I had, I've had tolisten to queer folks and women
over the years to understand howsome of the ways I've shown up
in space is being really loud and, you know, abrasive and
aggressive can be intimidating. Because, you know, I think one
out of every four or three womenthat we know have been sexually
assaulted. And, you know, that's something
that I had to carry with me to make sure that I'm not
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reproducing the same type of character traits that the people
that have attacked, that have attacked these people, you know,
that they've also had, right. And when it comes to queer
folks, I, I, I have to understand that I have so much
privilege as a straight guy, even though I'm black, like, I
still have privilege as a man, as a straight man that a lot of
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queer folks don't. And, you know, you know, it's
just really tapping into the, the, the listing skills and
listening abilities that we had to listen to other people's
stories. And then I think the other thing
too is just really giving up that privilege and power, right?
I know if I have privilege and power that other people don't, I
have to share that with other people, right?
If if I have resources that other organizations don't, I
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have to share that with other people.
And we see this a lot, especially also, right, we see
so many of our white LED organizations get so much money
to do, you know, some, some somepretty good work.
But then you have black organizations that are doing the
same work sometimes, if not better, that's unique and
serving their community. But they don't get the funding
and they have to work 3 or 4 times as our just because for
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whatever reason, like they're not able to get the same funding
or resources, right. And I think a lot of that is
just making sure that you know what, I can use my platform, I
can use my power, I can use my privilege to elevate others.
So I think until we are able to be more empathetic as a country
and as people, until we're able to listen to one another more
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deeply, like, like just really lean all the way in.
And until we're ready to like really relinquish power and
privilege and share that and, and, and, and distribute it as
as much as we can to make sure we raise our boats, then you
know this problem is going to stay.
Can you chat with us a little bit about, you mentioned
empathy, the difference because you gave a Ted talk on this, the
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difference between empathy and sympathy for people that might
kind of equate the two. Yeah, I think I believe sympathy
is just when you you know, like if you tell me your, your cat
died and I'm like, kind of, you know, patting you on your back
and say, man, that sucks. And I kind of show up for you in
that moment, but I feel sad for you, right.
Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm leaning into, or I'm extending myself
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emotionally to, to just feel sadfor you.
Like that's, that's kind of it. But empathy is actually I'm
tapping in to the all the feelings that you have.
Like I'm literally putting my shoes, I mean my feet in your
shoes. And I'm, I'm now immersed as, as
much as I can be and what that could possibly feel like, right?
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And I'm putting myself in your position.
And I think if we're able to do that a whole lot more, I think
the care factor changes, right? Because now it goes from this
guy lost the cat to like, damn, that would also suck if I lost
something that was really close to me as well, right?
And like now how can I show up for my friend or stranger,
whoever this person may be to like, give them what they need
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to help to help get them throughthis process, right?
So, so, and I tell people I tell, don't feel sorry for me.
Like, I don't, I don't need that, you know, like, but if
you're willing to like go on a journey with me and actually
understand how I'm feeling and understand the places I've been
and understand the journey that I'm on right now.
I think that is how we, I, I, I just, I believe that's how we
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get more connected. I believe that's how we care
about one another more authentically.
And I, it just like when you, when you, when you decide to
practice empathy, it changes you, right?
Because it now it makes me realize that you know what, this
person is going through a traumatic experience and this
person could be me. So how can I help them through
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this process, right? It's just always really it's
it's it's sympathy like advancedlevel, right, Because sympathy
is like you cut on the TV. We see sad shit all the time on
the news and like, I'll feel sadfor the family.
But then empathy is when you're able to like kind of cosplay a
little bit and say, OK, well, what if that was me?
And then that, I think that moves us to action just just a
(21:46):
whole lot faster than sympathy. Thank you.
That was a, that was a very helpful bifurcation of this.
Can you chat with us a little bit about intersectionality?
So with, with the social justicemovement, several different
groups find some commonality andsome common ground.
Chat with us a little bit about just for, again, people that
might not know, I've got all kinds of different listeners,
(22:06):
but what is intersectionality and kind of what's that common
ground that these different groups find together?
Intersectionality is the understanding that everything
intersects right? Like they're, they're like
nothing is like isolated, like everything we do, it's like it,
it all comes together at some point, kind of like this X like,
like this is this point right here.
(22:28):
You over here thinking that likethe black people struggle is
just unique to black people. The Latino struggle is just
unique to Latino people, like the, the women's struggle or
whatever. Like, but all these sections, if
you really do the research and, and, and do the political
education necessary, they all come to crux, right?
Like everything is, is, is affected by something that
(22:49):
affects something else, right? Like there is that there, there,
there is no difference between the current ICE issue, the
immigration issue, and what we've been talking about for the
past 10/15/20 really forever with police violence, right?
And, and even even though these are two really dark and grim
things, there's no difference than like the struggle of people
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that are going through financialwoes, like working class, poor
folks, homeless folks, because all these things come back to
the system of, of capitalism. They come, they come back to the
system of like racism, like all these things, classism, all
these things are byproducts of the, of the, of the isms, if you
(23:33):
will, right. And I think once people
understand that I'm only facing,or we're only going through this
because of racism, then this group could be like, Oh, me too.
And then the women just say, well, mine isn't racism, but
it's, it's, it's still like I'm still being treat it less than
because of who I am. It's which is, you know, it's,
it's, it's a gender thing. It's a it's a it's a anti woman
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thing. But like that also invites you
into struggle with the other people that are also being
admonished just because they're different, right.
So it's, it's understanding thatalthough the fights in the
battle sound and feel different,they're really all the same.
And once we able to understand that, now I can get my team and
your team and we have this huge army that can, that can mount up
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and do what we need to do to getthe things that we want.
But that's all intersectionalityis.
And I think a lot of times people try to over explain it.
I think they try to over like, you know, like this academia
thing, like they try to explain it too much.
Like intersectionality is the basic understanding that
everything touches everything all the time.
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Kind of like one of my favorite movies, Everything Everywhere
all at once. You know what I mean?
Like it's just, it's, we're all in constant motion and all this
stuff is affected by the same things.
And when we understand that, again, it allows us to to
empathize with one another and allows us to grow a movement of,
of love, empathy and understanding.
And I think that's what we need to move forward.
Is it a fair, thank you for that.
Is that, is it a fair summary tosay that with intersectionality,
(25:01):
what's happening is though people have different specific
groups or agendas, they're finding a commonality or a
common agenda in either kind of being an oppressed class or
having been victimized or or being seen not as the norm.
Is that a? Is that overly simplistic, or is
that a fair definition? No, I think, I think that's, I,
(25:22):
I think that's it. And I think, I think that's the
only way to really that's, that's the only way people need
to explain it. I think people make it too
complicated when they explain it, but I think that's exactly
it. Like like if you and I are both
hungry, I don't give a damn how you got hungry or, or the
circumstances that got you there.
We're both hungry and, and we need to figure out a way to get
something to eat. Like I'm not going to like it.
(25:45):
It. It's crazy to me that some
people would be like, oh, this guy's only hungry because he
spent all his money and he wasted it.
Well, I don't, I don't care. He's still hungry.
So like, let's figure out a way to eat.
Like, like if, if I'm hungry because somebody stole my food,
that also doesn't matter. Like we're both hungry.
We have a problem, we have a common problem and we need to
figure out how to how to solve it or we're going to start with
(26:06):
them. You know what I mean?
Let me ask, So what you just said I, I find very interesting
this this plays into an idea that often comes up when, when
people talk about social justice, which is do you believe
that injustice is primarily due to individual actions or group
actions, Meaning like individuals commit crimes,
(26:27):
individuals are racist individuals, but also we
classify people typically as groups of black, white, you
know, female, LGBTQ plus, whatever it might be.
Give me your thoughts on injustice as groups versus
individual acts. Well, you know, again, I think
injustice is the, the lack of accountability, right?
(26:49):
I, I think, I think what, what you're talking about is like a,
a, a group of people are a single person can cause harm,
right? Like, and I don't want to get
too, I'm, I'm trying to use likekind of light examples, but
like, sure, if somebody like themonkey everybody loves right
now, punch, you know, like if, if somebody, if one of the
(27:13):
monkeys stole punches and I think he's, you know, you know,
he's doing better now. But if one of the, the, the
older monkeys are bigger monkeysstole punches, plush toy, like
that's a harm committed. The injustice happens when
nobody holds that monkey accountable.
If they have like a monkey courtsystem or whatever.
I don't, I don't know how much, but like so, so injustice is a
(27:36):
lack of accountability because harm is going to happen.
And I'm not so naive and so something to believe that like
we're going to live in a world where harm is completely void.
But injustice happens when there's a lack of
accountability, when there's no room for rehabilitation, when
there's no room for for correction, right.
(27:57):
I think that's the injustice when like the, the, the, the,
the biggest thing that a lot of black people were upset about
during the BLM movement or the peak of the BLM movement is that
we saw so many black people be harmed and killed by police and
we never saw cops really be heldaccountable.
That's the injustice, right? Like cap cops killing people is
(28:21):
going to happen. That is going to happen.
I think nobody is, is, is is assuming that's going to stop
the injustice happens when thosecops are not held accountable.
The injustice happens in our schools when we see certain
schools get funding and other ones don't.
And we live in a state that sayswe care about the education of
all our kids. Well, that's not necessarily
(28:41):
true because there are tons of schools on the east side of 35
that are not getting the same amount of funding and they're
getting closed down. That's an injustice, right?
Like an injustice like the like,yes, that is injustice.
And I think speaking in those terms, I think the injustice is
way more harmful when it happenson a systemic level because we
(29:03):
have these systems in place thatare supposed to bring justice.
We have a legal system that saysif you commit crime, which is if
you commit harm or you bring harm upon your fellow citizen,
we have to hold you accountable.And we've seen time and time
again, harm is inflicted upon certain groups of people,
certain class of people, and there's no justice.
(29:25):
And that's why people are just like, well, what's the point of
this thing then if there's nevergoing to be justice?
So I, and I'm, I'm more concerned about justice on that
broad level because it's so muchmore damning than an individual
level. And I'm not saying we don't do
what we need to do and do the like do the personal work we
need to do to make sure we can reduce the individual levels of
(29:47):
injustice and crime and harm. But when harm happens and then
we have the bar level saying, you know, we're going to do the
right thing and get you the justice that you deserve and
that day never comes, then like that's how you build apathy.
And then apathy is the exact kryptonite of empathy and
sympathy. And it's also the kryptonite of
(30:08):
of movement building because if you once systems crush the
spirit of people, once institutions crush the spirit of
people, that is how they ultimately win.
And that is how they placate us.That is how they keep us.
Just like believing that there'snothing possible to create the
world that we want. So I don't know if that answered
your question all the way, but it felt really good to me.
No, no, dude, that was that. I think that was right.
(30:30):
So, so in in summary, I mean, there's a sense of which you're
saying there's kind of a double injustice.
There's the bad thing that happens and then there's the not
holding it accountable and that creates kind of a snowball
effect. So they're kind of two sides of
the same coin. And OK, you you mentioned
something just a second ago about creating a better world.
And you you mentioned the term utopia at the beginning.
Tell me kind of your views is your view that let me, let me
(30:54):
say it, let me say it a a more precise way.
Do you feel as though humans in a sense are kind of naturally
good, but because of our environments, our institutions,
our education, our upbringing, that's kind of what brings the
bad in the world? Or do you think mankind is more
naturally bad and it's kind of the nature versus nurture
question? What are your what are your
(31:14):
thoughts on that? And I, I think people are, I, I
think we're naturally good like most of us, you know, I think
maybe every now and again, like a wire is crossing some folks.
Like a Hitler, Yeah. And that's the example I use all
the time. You know, like Hitler has some
something was going on up there.But I think for the most part,
we we are inherently good. And you know, life happens in
(31:41):
our response to that is how we choose the path we want to go
down, right? Because like shit happens to
everybody. Like life is extremely unfair.
Bad things are going to happen, bad people are going to happen.
But our response to the to the bad is, is I think what
ultimately builds our character arc.
And then what happens is you just have a ongoing process of
(32:07):
like people going down one of these paths and now you have
more people that are being born into the world or just even
people that's in it. You know, the good cross paths
with the bad and that can also kind of influence the good to go
bad. But vice versa, the good can
(32:27):
influence the bad to go good. But I think inherently like from
start, because like we don't have a reason, like because we,
we don't have any notion of whatrace and class is like we're
just here trying to figure this shit out.
You know what I mean? Sure.
And this society tries to and I say try because all of us don't
(32:49):
believe in it. But it like society tries to
implement in us that, that thereare groups of people that you
should watch out of in like the stereotypes and all the things
and they like. So now you this very
impressionable mind and brain begins to put guard rails up
and, and, and, and it's triggered by things.
(33:10):
But again, I think I, none of that is natural.
I think, I think we, I think we all start to sleep pretty clean.
OK, So what is is is some type like you mentioned.
It can't be a perfect utopia. People are still going to be
people. Do you feel as though humanity's
getting better? Do you feel as though humanity's
getting worse? Do you feel as though there's
more good in the world, more badin the world?
(33:30):
Give me your thoughts on that because that that's kind of
related to these different topics.
Man, yeah, we, we got Trump twice, right?
You know, I mean, like, I think when we got Trump the first
time, I was like, OK, yo, wait aminute, you know what I mean?
And then, and then we got him out.
So I was like, OK, well, maybe, maybe something is right, but
then we got him back again. So like I'm, I'm confused on
(33:52):
that front and the, and the guy's just terrible, man.
Like he, he's just a really inconsiderate, like this
indecent person. And I, I'm, I'm curious as to
why he is that way. And then I also look at what's
going on globally, right? Like we, there's, there's an
ongoing genocide happening in, in several places around the
world. And so and you know, I, I think
(34:15):
if one of one of the people fromthose groups that are living in
that experience right now heard me say, oh, no, the world is
pretty decent place. I think, I think just slightly
inconsiderate and it's maybe unkind.
But I also look at the people that are going through these
situations and I still see that they have hope and they have
resilience and they are persevering through these very
(34:36):
monstrous and like almost demonic times.
And that gives me faith. I also look at, you know, the
students here in Austin that have done, you know, these
massive walk outs in the name ofprotesting against ice.
And that gives me hope. I look at, again, you know,
going back to 2020 when so many people came out, we had one of
the biggest rallies ever in Texas for like, you know,
(34:58):
outside of a Democratic Party type situation.
I'm in the name of George Floyd and like things that give me
hope and knowing that there's somany people just doing really
good work all the time, like people like you that are having
these conversations with people,that gives me hope.
So you know, I and, and I also just believe that it is, I guess
it's like a movie trope, like most movies, the, the, the good
(35:22):
guys always win most of them. Now some movies have like a
really shocked ending, like damn, did not see that
happening. But for the most part, like good
and, and all that is well and well to do turns out all right.
So that, that leaves me hopeful and you know, I, I think, I, I
think, I think we are living in a moment that is challenging us
(35:44):
to rise up and be good and be decent.
And I think only time will tell.So, you know, I, I, I think the
answer to that question is, is it's pending because how we, how
we globally and especially here in a on a home front in America,
how we respond to systems and institutions of like other chaos
(36:05):
of the next couple years are, are going to be so instrumental
and it's so imperative for the future of this country.
So we'll see. I'm, I'm rooting.
I'm I'm, I'm rooting for us, though, yeah.
Yes, rooting for humanity. Yeah, I, I think the global,
global perspective is interesting because, you know,
(36:25):
there, there are some nations that are doing better while
others are doing worse. And then others think it's
awesome. And then there's like North
Korea and you're like, OK, so it's, it's, I don't even know if
it's just a whole humanity thing.
It's always like different sectors of humanity at different
times. And no, that's fascinating.
OK, let me, let me ask you this question because when we talk
about equality there, there's really 2 main kinds of equality.
(36:48):
So I want to get your thoughts on this.
In what ways do you believe thatpeople are equal?
You know, legally, constitutionally, we're all
human, these kind of things. And in what ways are they
unequal? Maybe differences in strength or
intelligence or, or, or money orsomething like that.
And, and how do those things work together?
You can take this question wherever you want, but I I think
it's a fascinating question. Yeah, we're we're all human.
So like we all have the same yeah.
(37:11):
And, and that way we're all equal and.
And in this way, I say, like, like, nobody's actually like,
more special than another. Like, people tell me all the
time that, you know, I'm a really good orator.
I get really good speeches that like, I'm really good at it, at
that thing. But that doesn't make me better
than you, right? That doesn't make me more
special than you. I'm just learning how to tap
into, like, my gifts that I'm like, that I'm just really good
(37:32):
at, like you said. Yeah, of course there are some
things that make us different, right?
Like you and I have a obvious difference.
And of course, some people are stronger than others.
But I, I think these are just gifts and tools in different
presets that we have that we should be using to help our
fellow neighbor, right? Like, thank God we're not all
(37:53):
like £120 and can only like bench press like 10 lbs like,
because then we wouldn't be ableto build and do shit.
But so yeah, you know, I, I, oneof my favorite slogans is from
Android. It's, it's OK to be it.
We're different together, right?Like, which is saying to me that
(38:14):
it's OK to like have flair and have style, but like bring that
back to the collective, right? Like everything that we have
should be used as a gift and a tool to, yes, of course, take
care of ourselves and the thingswe need, but also to take back
to the collective to make the collective whole and, and happy
as well. So it's about using our
(38:34):
different skill sets and talentsto bring back to the collective
because when we're in community,that's when we're really all
equal as well. That's when you start to
understand that, yes, you may bebeing stronger than me, but we
still have some of the same issues, right?
Like you, you may have gone through some, you know,
traumatic issues in your life. And I have two.
And like, that's where we can relate.
(38:54):
And so it's all like community and life experiences always
bring us back together to show us that we are so much more the
same then then we are different,right?
It's only a few things that really, you know, draws a party
like that. It's it's, it's mostly some of
the things you say it like looking appearances.
That's thank you for that. By the way, thank you for that
summary. OK, I've got 2 questions left
(39:16):
unless you have anything. I'll give you a chance also to
say whatever you want to say at the end, if there's anything
else. But two other two kind of final
questions. What do you think the biggest
issues are right now that are affecting your community?
When we talk about social justice specifically with you
specifically in Austin, if you were to just list a few like
these are the biggest things going on, the biggest problems
(39:37):
in the country right now, what would you say those are?
Well, I think there are two mainissues, man.
Like we have an affordability crisis in the country right now.
Things are getting really difficult for a lot of people.
A lot of people are having a hard time living day-to-day
because the price of everything is going up, inflation is out of
the roof, and the wages stay thesame, right?
(40:01):
So affordability is 1. And then the thing that I'm most
concerned about is that we are living in, I think we're living
in a, a replica of the movie Idiocracy.
And I think a large part of thatis due to AI, right?
Like it's so hard for a lot of people to tell was real and
(40:21):
fake. Which can be really dangerous
and in the way AI is being weaponized in that regard gives
me extreme pause right and even like the disregard for like we
know over uses of AI is like really dangerous for certain
communities where AI power plantwater plants are being installed
(40:42):
and set up. And the more I think about it, I
think that this great AI era that we in is going to lead us
to Mad Max, right? Like, and yeah, you know,
because Mad Max it was it was they living in desert because
all the water was gone and waterbecame like the richest
(41:03):
resource. And if, if, if AI uses as much
water as they say it does. And that becomes like the like
water is becoming like the new gold.
So people can make bullshit, youknow, reenactments of things.
It it's so so that couple with the fact that it's also being
(41:24):
weaponized in like political arenas to know or or to to, to
assume that politicians are are some of these things are
happening or not happening. It is very dangerous, man.
And I think when you have an electorate or, or society that
is just dumb like you, you can'tdo anything.
(41:47):
And I think that's what's happening now.
And that's one of my like, we'renot reading anymore like I was.
Well, I'm reading as I can see from my, my fake books back
here. But I wish I would have kept my,
my real camera on because I havea bookshelf behind me with books
like I but I can't remember the last time I seen a person
younger than me, like pick up anactual book, Right.
(42:10):
Like, and there's nothing wrong with Kindles and not like that
because I'm glad you're still reading.
But like, we're getting so far away from like the things that
make us human, right? Like there, there used to be
this really fond appreciation ofcracking open a book and, and,
and immersing yourself in that book, like the physical copy of
the book. So a lot of that stuff gives me
(42:30):
pause And Rory, but, and, and again, like we have to find a
way to like get people employed and raise the minimum wage
across the board and give peoplerespectable living wages.
And then I think at this point, because it's going to happen,
like we're seeing robots take the jobs.
(42:52):
So many people. I, I think the country is going
to have to seriously think aboutthe living wage because if the
robots take all the jobs, but westill need humans to, to
participate in, in the economy, buying groceries, buying food
and things of this nature, but they don't have jobs to pay
them. We have to, we have to, you
(43:12):
know, pump some of that money into people's pockets so they
can keep the economy afloat. Right.
Or, and, and again, like that's my basic understanding of like
economics, because that was not a class I excelled in at all.
But yeah, man. And I think the last thing is
that we are, I think too many ofus are go are playing the, the
(43:33):
extreme game. We're extreme, we're extreme
right. We're extreme left and there's
no middle anymore. Like there's no middle.
There's not a middle class. There's no middle area for
politics. Like you can't even propose to
meet in the middle because people on the other sides feel
betrayed. And I, I think that I think
(43:54):
that's also very, very dangerous.
Like somebody has to be willing to come to the middle and talk
about things and negotiate and, and and say, well, you know, we
both can't get all what we want,but like, where can we meet?
If the fact that we have a dis, a discipline middle and
everything is becoming so polarized?
I think it's also very scary. And I think that's something
that affects all of us, right? And I think even in our
(44:17):
communities, right, you got people that, you know, like
they're only going to vote for the black person because they're
black, which, which is whatever,like what we should be voting
for the best person for the job.Are you going to have people
that's voting for white people just because they're white?
And I don't we've been, we've been doing that, like we've been
doing that trope and like, wherehas that gotten us nowhere.
(44:40):
So I, I think to me, those are some of the biggest things.
And I think the last thing is, Ithink, I think we are getting
further and further away becauseit's never been a cool thing.
We getting, we're getting further and further away from
practicing and understanding love.
(45:00):
I, I think love is also being demonized.
I think love is being weaponizedto say that you're weak, that
you're that, that you show too much sympathy, that you practice
too much empathy. When I would argue that we've
never had a beloved movement in this country, like most of our
movements are built out of righteous anger and righteous
fear in, in, in this quest for like a, a, a better tomorrow.
(45:25):
But like love has really never been the fuel of these
movements. There's always anger.
And I think the further away we move from love that that enables
a few things. Because if I can't love you,
that means I can't see you. If I can't see you, it's easy
for me to dehumanize you and it's easy.
And if it's easy for me to dehumanize you, it's credit it,
(45:48):
it's vastly or it's, it's hyper easy for me to crush you, right?
Because if I just see you as an object and not a person, not a
person that has a family, not a person that, that has emotions
and feelings and all these things and all these other
people that may care about you, if I don't see your importance
or your value, it's very easy for me to commit harm to you.
(46:12):
So the more we, we let these polar opposites tell us that
we're at war with one another, it's, it's, it's, it's only
going to make it very easy for us to, to literally go at each
other's necks. You know what I mean?
I think that's something that I've been learning.
So it's just like I've been learning how to, how can I make
(46:32):
sure that I'm talking about loveand everything that I do, I'm in
a way that makes sense in a way that's practical to people and
let people know that I'm, again,this is we, we've never tried to
love movement ever. And, you know, let's just give
it a go and see what happens, you know?
Yeah, and you're not you're you'll be scorned if you try to
love somebody of your opposing tribe.
(46:53):
So you're allowed to love certain people.
You're not allowed to love somebody of the other, you know,
political persuasion or, or other tribe.
And I think one of the things you said also thought was
really, really helpful and really interesting.
And This is why we like, regardless of our views or
whatever, the reason that I likehaving different people and
stuff on the podcast is conversation is the way to start
(47:14):
healing some of this divide. Because right now it's just pure
tribalism. It's just, you know, memes
versus each other and making funof each other.
And there's like hatred. And so that there's something
different when you read a book by somebody of an opposing view,
when you sit down over coffee ora beer or whatever with somebody
of an opposing view and you actually talk, yeah, you might
still disagree on some stuff, but you you've humanized them.
(47:35):
You're like, OK, I get why they're doing that.
They're not just being stupid. I or whatever.
Like there is a way to to, to befriends and disagree, but our
culture, like you said, hates that we, we don't just have even
left and right anymore. It's like far left or far right.
And, and so that's, that's fascinating.
Thank you for your thoughts on that.
OK, last thing, what would you like any other resources you
(47:57):
want to promote for people? What we'll put a link to your
website and stuff when this podcast goes out to it'll be mid
March, but we'll put a link there where people can check
that out. Any resources are kind of final
thoughts that you have just to be like, hey, here's what I
think you need to consider listeners, or here's a book I'd
recommend or whatever you want to say.
Now I actually have some books. I think one of my favorite books
(48:21):
of all time is I want to make sure I get it right.
Until We Reckon by Daniel Saric,just a fantastic book talks
about until we reckon with this racial problem in America,
you're going to keep having these problems. 2nd book is by
Bill hooks all about love and really that whole series of
(48:42):
love. I really recommend people read.
And then my last book is for men, also by Bill hooks, The
will to change where she asks usand invites us in to re examine
and redefine masculinity for ourselves.
And that book has helped me tremendously.
Man like it. It is that is probably my Bible
(49:02):
that along with The Alchemist, which is my favorite book of all
time, my number one favorite book of all time, like never
changing in Will Smith's book, which is also really good for
men too. So, and I also think that's the
that's the point of life that I'm into.
While I'm also doing all the activist stuff.
I've been really passionate about checking in on the mental
(49:24):
health of men because I know menhave really, we bought, we, we
put too much stock into the ideaof the, the, we put too much
stock into the wrong idea of masculinity to where it, it's
all about anger and control and you can't have feelings and
emotions. So I've been really, really
leaning into that. And, you know, we do the series
(49:46):
called Bro Brunch where it's a safe space for men to just come
out and we of course have music and food and stuff like that,
but we also practice group therapy.
We check in with one other and stuff like that.
So other than that, man, you know, just, I encourage
everybody to go have conversation with people that
you don't think you would have otherwise.
(50:06):
You know, like we got to start, we got, we got to build that
middle like, and, and it's not going to be easy and it's not
going to be fast, but we, we have to rebuild the middle
because the middle is where the magic happens, you know, and at
least I think so. We don't get anything by
operating in echo chambers. We don't get anything by singing
to the choir and we don't get anything by acting like the bad
Girls Club where we are the MeanGirls.
(50:28):
Whatever. I the, the, the, the, the idea
of the role I have it's, it's, it's plentiful.
We have enough, we have enough of what we need.
And I think once we start tapping into one another, we can
understand that because I'm in aplace in my life to where I
understand my biggest resource is my neighbor.
(50:49):
It's not the number of shoes I got in my closet, which is a
pretty good amount. It's not like the number of
awards I have and stuff like that.
It's about how I can connect with other people around me and
how I can make a good impressionon their lives and hopefully
contaminate them with kindness to when they didn't want to
spread it to everybody else. So, yeah, just, you know, like,
(51:12):
like Ellen used to say who I think we've, I think society has
done Ellen wrong. You know, like she wasn't
perfect, but one thing she reminded us to do all the time
was be kind of one another, right?
And I think that's my, that would be my, my sign out here
today. Yeah, well, Chaz Moore, Austin
Justice Coalition, thank you so much for taking the time to to
(51:33):
chat with us and to to share your views.
And for everybody listening, thanks so much for checking us
out again. We'll have a link to to his
website here at the bottom. And thanks for watching us on
ideological. We will see you next time.
Disclaimer For all ideological interviews, this podcast is a
space for thoughtful conversation.
Hosting a guest implies neither their endorsement nor rejection
of our views, and a guest's appearance implies neither our
endorsement nor rejection of their views.
We encourage listeners to approach each conversation with
an open mind and emotional control, and to evaluate the
dialogue on the strength of the arguments presented, not one's
(00:21):
prior assumptions or biases. Once institutions crush the
spirit of people, that is how they ultimately win and that is
how they placatas. That is how they keep us just
like believing that there's nothing possible to create the
world that we want. We got we got to build that
middle like and, and it's not going to be easy and it's not
going to be fast, but we we haveto rebuild the middle because
the middle is where the magic happened.
(00:42):
Middle. There's not a middle class.
There's no middle area for politics.
Like you can't even propose to meet in the middle because
people on the other sides feel betrayed.
Hello, and welcome to another edition of Ideological.
(01:03):
I'm your host, Zach Lee, and today we have a special guest.
We have Chaz Moore, who's going to be chatting with us about his
organization. Chaz, thanks so much for being
on the podcast. I mean, thank you all for having
me. I'm.
Excited. I'm excited about this one.
I think this one will be a ton of fun.
OK. What I want to do is I want to
kind of set you up to to take this really any direction that
(01:23):
you want to go. My first question though, for
those who might not know who youare, can you tell us a little
bit about you, your background, how you got involved in social
activism and that kind of stuff?Oh man, where do I begin?
So I'm, I'm Chaz Moore, I'm the founder and right now I'm the
organizer director at the Also Justice Coalition.
(01:45):
And that Dawson just coalition is basically your advocacy
activist organization. They got started in 2015, right
around the time of this really intense saga of police brutality
against, you know, unarmed blackfolks.
And the the whole reason we got started is because, you know, I
was going around to a lot of legacy organizations such as the
(02:08):
Urban League and N double ACP, and they were telling me I was
too loud and too radical. So I had to, I had to be on my
own table. And I also wanted to, I also
wanted to make sure that we had a space and a platform where
young folks, women, queer folks,you know, does anybody that that
wanted to fight for a better world could come and join
(02:31):
without. Like you don't have to wear
suits and ties and things of that nature.
And yeah, I think just, you know, really growing up in
Houston, TX, I was raised by my grandma.
My mom passed away when I was 7.I didn't meet my dad until I was
17 or 18. And just really having the, the,
(02:54):
the luxury, when I look back at it, of having, of having a
grandma who was born in 1935 in rural Louisiana, You know, I had
a very keen understanding of therural, I think at a very early
age meant like probably too early compared to like most
folks. But so all, all of that stuff
(03:15):
combined has helped shape me to be the person I am today and do
the things that that that we've been able to do.
Awesome. Well, thanks for that.
Tell us a little bit about yoursspecifically.
I know you're involved with a bunch of different
organizations, but your primary one being Austin Justice
Coalition. Can you tell me a little bit
about a little bit about that? Yeah, again, man, you know,
(03:35):
right. How old was I in 2015?
Eleven years ago? I was 27.
I think that's right, man. And yeah, man, I just really
wanted to have a space in Austinwhere people could dream
(03:56):
together, you know, because I'm,I'm one of the few people that
actually believe we don't have to wait till we die and go to
heaven or some afterlife to livein utopia.
I'm not saying that the earth isever going to be like 100% like
good and pure, but I think we can get pretty close to that.
And I wanted to build something for dreamers and people that
(04:16):
have faith and hope that we can build worlds and systems where
people have the things they needand we're taking care of one
another and things of that nature.
And also to stand up against things that are wrong.
You know, again, at the time when I wanted some help and
assistance from the legacy organizations, they told me I
was too loud and too radical andtoo bold.
So I said cool, you know, just Ijust build something for me.
(04:38):
And I tell people this all the time because I'm originally from
Houston, TX, right? Which is a really black city.
So when I got to Austin, it was a culture shock because I've
never seen as many white people in Mass ever.
Oh, it's like the San Francisco of Texas.
Yeah, Austin is it's Austin is it's own place, Yeah.
Yeah, I, I, I, I joke a lot thatAustin is like white people's
Atlanta, you know, and, and, andI, I love that for them.
(05:01):
But so, yeah, you know, it was, it was a, it was a few things
happening when I first got here that also helped shape my
outlook on what I wanted to do and some of the initiatives that
I had. So AJC was born and we've been
we've been rocking since then. OK, very good.
(05:23):
OK, so that's that's kind of whoyou are, the main organization
you work with. Now I want to get into just some
specific things I know that you're very passionate about.
Give us your definition of social justice, because this is
a term that people throw around.Sometimes they use it correctly,
sometimes they misuse it. Tell us what social justice is
and is not. Well, you know, I, I do think it
(05:44):
is a, it's a loosey goosey term,right?
I think a lot of people say it and we all have different
definitions and different lenseson it.
For me, social justice means that as a society, as a global
community, we are doing the things we need to do to make
sure people have the things theyneed.
(06:05):
We're also holding people accountable when they mess up,
but not punitively. And it's, it's just making sure
that everybody can feel seen andheard right, making sure that
everybody understands their value and their importance and
the greater good of, of society.And I think for me, that means
that we have to reform a lot of our institutions.
That means we need a better education system.
(06:27):
We absolutely need a better criminal legal system.
We, we need better pay for people because things are
getting crazy and we, and, and again, we just need some kind of
systemic or, or or institutionalized approach to
make sure everybody can have what they need and everybody's
(06:47):
well taken care of. And sometimes that means that,
you know, if, you know, if, if you and I as men, we know that
we have like privilege as men todo and say and move in certain
ways. That means we should be using
that privilege to make sure we can raise deliveries for other
folks as well to make sure they have those same privileges as
well. You know, like it's, it's
(07:08):
almost, and people hate when I say this, but like it's almost
making sure that nobody's special because we all are, you
know what I mean? Like like like nobody gets to be
the end all be all or are are the the the superstar in class
is because like they look a certain way.
Are they of a certain background?
Like, you know, everybody has the potential to be special and
(07:31):
we need to give people the toolsto tap into that.
Right. Like that's that.
That's a little bit, or in a short version of what social
justice means to me. Yeah, thank you.
So I want to mention something you brought up you, you
mentioned the word systemic as far as like fixing the problem
institutionally. Can you chat with us a little
bit about, you know, isn't justice systemic?
What does that mean for those who may not know versus, you
(07:53):
know, individual or something like that?
Oh man, is injustice systemic? Yeah.
And what does that mean? You can take this wherever you
want. Do these, I know these questions
sound kind of formal, but we cango any, any direction you want.
So feel free to take the question the way you want
because I, I mainly want to hearfrom you.
I. I, I think I, I think a lot of
times it just happens to be systemic.
(08:18):
I don't know if it was ever sought out that way.
And a lot of times it just flat out is right.
You know, we've had laws on the books that said people that look
like me with three human. We've had laws on books that
said women couldn't buy houses or have bank accounts.
We've had all type of, in my opinion, discriminate
discriminatory laws that what kind of dictate who can and
(08:40):
can't, who can and can't come into the country.
So, so in those instances, right, where you have people
that can only go to the back door of an establishment, all
use certain water fountains thatof course that's systemic.
But then I think there are some other instances of just
collateral consequence, right? I think when we think about
domestic violence, right? I think domestic violence
(09:03):
happens to be one of those really weird things to where if
if a guy tells us that he's being domestically abused by his
woman, nobody's going to believethat.
Nobody's really going to go up in arms.
Yeah, they'll. Probably just, they'll probably
just like push back. They'll probably laugh at him,
make fun, you know what I mean? And so like even that is it like
injustice, right? Because if we really care about
(09:24):
domestic violence, we shouldn't care who the abuser is or who
the victim is. We should make sure that we can
have some type of road to like redemption and some type of road
to rehabilitation and repair. So I think a lot of times it, it
can be, but like, I don't want to just say like it's completely
or inherently systemic because Ithink a lot of times these
(09:45):
systems just were built and designed without the proper
empathy in, in, in human care tomake sure that a lot of these
loopholes didn't exist. Besides the very racist laws
that weren't like people know what they were doing when they
did that. But, but, but, you know, I, I
think it's, I think it's just happens to be because we seem to
put value over the systems more than people.
(10:09):
And I think that's how you get injustice.
And I think another thing that happens is that time and time
changes. We evolve, side evolves, right?
And I think with that, we shouldchange and, and, and, and maybe
review how we implemented some of these things are, are so many
systems? Are they even needed anymore
(10:30):
because we've come so long and so far as a society?
So I, I, I do think injustice can be systemic.
I don't think it just necessarily is all the time.
OK, dude, so you, you brought upsomething I thought was
interesting mentioning like the segregation and the water
fountains and that kind of stuff.
Chat with me because I know you're also very much involved
in different kinds of social justice, kind of the
(10:52):
intersectionality of different groups.
But I also know that when it comes to race relations that
that's also kind of a Forte of yours.
So what would you say how, how is the issue of race similar
today to in the civil rights movement in the 60s and how is
it different in your opinion? Oh man, it, well, I, I think
it's very much similar because there's still so many gains to
be had by a lot of working classpeople that just don't happen to
(11:14):
be white. All right.
I think I, I, I think in, in, inthe more I grow in the more I
read and the more life I live. I'm, I'm trying to figure out
different ways to talk about it because I really, I don't
particularly want to make peoplefeel bad about what the things
their forefathers and four mothers that have done.
(11:35):
But I think it's imperative to, to have people understand that a
lot of the wealth and privilege that you have comes from, again,
these systemic injustices that happened in the past, right.
And I think when it comes to race relations in America, I
think it's, it's very fascinating to me because I, I
think what we're seeing right now is that white, black,
yellow, whatever. It's, it's very much more of a
(11:58):
class issue. And I think I'm trying to really
convince people that we, we, we have to come together at some
point. We have to put our differences
aside. We have to, we have to learn how
to deal with the, the very sometimes hard just tension that
(12:18):
we have in this country when it comes to race relations, to make
sure we can work together to build a more equitable and just
society for all. But, you know, I think the
similarities come in effect thatthere's still much to be gained
by a lot of minority groups in, in, in the States.
But I think it's different because I, I think we're seeing
(12:38):
more of a, a groundswell of, of white working class people
understand the need for racial justice, right?
I, I think, I think we see this really concerted effort by a lot
of at least working class white Americans that they understand
the, the systemic issues of the past and how they affect today.
(12:59):
And I think there's some appetite to really move
different. And, and even though it's not,
it's, it's nowhere near easy. I'm not saying it's nowhere near
where it needs to be, but I, I think there seems to be an
understanding of, of what's of, of, of the, of the actual
problem, right? I, I think for a long time there
were activists and organizers and groups like mine that were
(13:20):
saying these things, but it was just kind of going in one ear,
not the other. But now, I think thanks to the
BLM movement from, you know, like the past decade, I think
people are kind of leaning in more to understand what white
privilege is and what white supremacy is and what all these
things are to make sure that they're not ascribing to it and
(13:43):
to make sure that they can effectively combat against it,
right? And another thing is I think
that we have that advantage, right?
We have so much more tools than they did in the 60s, right?
Like we have the Internet, we have tools like this to where we
can have conversations about whatever we have social media to
(14:05):
where we can get information outin mass in the moments, right?
And I, I, I think, I think a keypoint to look at was in 2020,
after George Floyd, you know, all 50 states were protesting.
And that's because of the technology that we have that
like, and, and it was COVID, right?
And I tell people all the time that because of COVID, we were
(14:26):
not able to go to happy hour at Starbucks.
We were not able to go to the bar and get our favorite drink.
Most of us, some people were still being like, you know,
assholes and going outside. But like, most of us were
collectively sitting in the house doing what we need to do
to protect one another. And when that moment with George
Foley, it happened when he was murdered by that officer in
Minneapolis, we all collectivelywatched that.
(14:47):
And, and your thoughts on it maybe different, but there's no
escape on that. A vast majority of the nation of
the world saw that moment and that's how we were able to
organize an entire country and around the world, globally,
people were protesting everywhere because of the
because of the ability to use platforms such as social media
and, and, and just really organize and talk to people that
(15:09):
we wouldn't have been able to talk to as easily back in the
60s and 70s, right. You know, like if you, if you
wanted to do a protest or a big rally, you have to get on the
phone and hope they pick up and you have to go like on the
church tour and you have to likego city to city.
And now it's just like, you know, I can just DM you and I
(15:30):
can ping. I can ping you until I get some
type of response. So like, like we're very much so
more able to be connected now than ever before.
And it's only getting crazier crazier, crazier good and
crazier bad. Yeah, I mean it's our
generations like printing press,like ideas can be disseminated
so much quicker. OK, so, so with with those those
(15:53):
things and the the problems we still see with race and these
kind of things, what do you believe the solution is to those
issues? So like if if some things are
systemic, if they're these things are still problems, which
they are, what do you believe would produce long term change?
What what's the solution in in your view?
I, I, I think one of the, the, the, the first steps to, to
(16:14):
fixing a lot of the issues around race and race relations
in our country is, is empathy. I, I, I, I think, I think people
have to be willing to actually listen and understand the
stories and lived experiences ofpeople that don't look like
them. And, you know, like, so when
black people are talking about police issues and if, if you
(16:37):
happen to be a white person and your first response is, well,
you should have just complied, You know, I, I think it's, I
think it's kind of problematic because it's excusing the lived
experience of this person. And it's also like going into
this notion that cops don't do bad things sometimes, right?
Like, I'm not saying all cops are bad, but like we know we've
(17:00):
seen it over the last 10 years for sure that sometimes cops can
go too far and do really, reallyfatal things that can lead to
black people being or anybody being being killed.
And I think we, I think we have to be willing to listen and tap
into another side of ourselves that that we're not familiar
with. And I think that also goes along
with empty because as a man, I've had to listen to and as a
(17:23):
straight man, I had, I've had tolisten to queer folks and women
over the years to understand howsome of the ways I've shown up
in space is being really loud and, you know, abrasive and
aggressive can be intimidating. Because, you know, I think one
out of every four or three womenthat we know have been sexually
assaulted. And, you know, that's something
that I had to carry with me to make sure that I'm not
(17:45):
reproducing the same type of character traits that the people
that have attacked, that have attacked these people, you know,
that they've also had, right. And when it comes to queer
folks, I, I, I have to understand that I have so much
privilege as a straight guy, even though I'm black, like, I
still have privilege as a man, as a straight man that a lot of
(18:05):
queer folks don't. And, you know, you know, it's
just really tapping into the, the, the listing skills and
listening abilities that we had to listen to other people's
stories. And then I think the other thing
too is just really giving up that privilege and power, right?
I know if I have privilege and power that other people don't, I
have to share that with other people, right?
If if I have resources that other organizations don't, I
(18:28):
have to share that with other people.
And we see this a lot, especially also, right, we see
so many of our white LED organizations get so much money
to do, you know, some, some somepretty good work.
But then you have black organizations that are doing the
same work sometimes, if not better, that's unique and
serving their community. But they don't get the funding
and they have to work 3 or 4 times as our just because for
(18:51):
whatever reason, like they're not able to get the same funding
or resources, right. And I think a lot of that is
just making sure that you know what, I can use my platform, I
can use my power, I can use my privilege to elevate others.
So I think until we are able to be more empathetic as a country
and as people, until we're able to listen to one another more
(19:11):
deeply, like, like just really lean all the way in.
And until we're ready to like really relinquish power and
privilege and share that and, and, and, and distribute it as
as much as we can to make sure we raise our boats, then you
know this problem is going to stay.
Can you chat with us a little bit about, you mentioned
empathy, the difference because you gave a Ted talk on this, the
(19:33):
difference between empathy and sympathy for people that might
kind of equate the two. Yeah, I think I believe sympathy
is just when you you know, like if you tell me your, your cat
died and I'm like, kind of, you know, patting you on your back
and say, man, that sucks. And I kind of show up for you in
that moment, but I feel sad for you, right.
Like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm leaning into, or I'm extending myself
(19:56):
emotionally to, to just feel sadfor you.
Like that's, that's kind of it. But empathy is actually I'm
tapping in to the all the feelings that you have.
Like I'm literally putting my shoes, I mean my feet in your
shoes. And I'm, I'm now immersed as, as
much as I can be and what that could possibly feel like, right?
(20:18):
And I'm putting myself in your position.
And I think if we're able to do that a whole lot more, I think
the care factor changes, right? Because now it goes from this
guy lost the cat to like, damn, that would also suck if I lost
something that was really close to me as well, right?
And like now how can I show up for my friend or stranger,
whoever this person may be to like, give them what they need
(20:41):
to help to help get them throughthis process, right?
So, so, and I tell people I tell, don't feel sorry for me.
Like, I don't, I don't need that, you know, like, but if
you're willing to like go on a journey with me and actually
understand how I'm feeling and understand the places I've been
and understand the journey that I'm on right now.
I think that is how we, I, I, I just, I believe that's how we
(21:01):
get more connected. I believe that's how we care
about one another more authentically.
And I, it just like when you, when you, when you decide to
practice empathy, it changes you, right?
Because it now it makes me realize that you know what, this
person is going through a traumatic experience and this
person could be me. So how can I help them through
(21:25):
this process, right? It's just always really it's
it's it's sympathy like advancedlevel, right, Because sympathy
is like you cut on the TV. We see sad shit all the time on
the news and like, I'll feel sadfor the family.
But then empathy is when you're able to like kind of cosplay a
little bit and say, OK, well, what if that was me?
And then that, I think that moves us to action just just a
(21:46):
whole lot faster than sympathy. Thank you.
That was a, that was a very helpful bifurcation of this.
Can you chat with us a little bit about intersectionality?
So with, with the social justicemovement, several different
groups find some commonality andsome common ground.
Chat with us a little bit about just for, again, people that
might not know, I've got all kinds of different listeners,
(22:06):
but what is intersectionality and kind of what's that common
ground that these different groups find together?
Intersectionality is the understanding that everything
intersects right? Like they're, they're like
nothing is like isolated, like everything we do, it's like it,
it all comes together at some point, kind of like this X like,
like this is this point right here.
(22:28):
You over here thinking that likethe black people struggle is
just unique to black people. The Latino struggle is just
unique to Latino people, like the, the women's struggle or
whatever. Like, but all these sections, if
you really do the research and, and, and do the political
education necessary, they all come to crux, right?
Like everything is, is, is affected by something that
(22:49):
affects something else, right? Like there is that there, there,
there is no difference between the current ICE issue, the
immigration issue, and what we've been talking about for the
past 10/15/20 really forever with police violence, right?
And, and even even though these are two really dark and grim
things, there's no difference than like the struggle of people
(23:12):
that are going through financialwoes, like working class, poor
folks, homeless folks, because all these things come back to
the system of, of capitalism. They come, they come back to the
system of like racism, like all these things, classism, all
these things are byproducts of the, of the, of the isms, if you
(23:33):
will, right. And I think once people
understand that I'm only facing,or we're only going through this
because of racism, then this group could be like, Oh, me too.
And then the women just say, well, mine isn't racism, but
it's, it's, it's still like I'm still being treat it less than
because of who I am. It's which is, you know, it's,
it's, it's a gender thing. It's a it's a it's a anti woman
(23:54):
thing. But like that also invites you
into struggle with the other people that are also being
admonished just because they're different, right.
So it's, it's understanding thatalthough the fights in the
battle sound and feel different,they're really all the same.
And once we able to understand that, now I can get my team and
your team and we have this huge army that can, that can mount up
(24:18):
and do what we need to do to getthe things that we want.
But that's all intersectionalityis.
And I think a lot of times people try to over explain it.
I think they try to over like, you know, like this academia
thing, like they try to explain it too much.
Like intersectionality is the basic understanding that
everything touches everything all the time.
(24:39):
Kind of like one of my favorite movies, Everything Everywhere
all at once. You know what I mean?
Like it's just, it's, we're all in constant motion and all this
stuff is affected by the same things.
And when we understand that, again, it allows us to to
empathize with one another and allows us to grow a movement of,
of love, empathy and understanding.
And I think that's what we need to move forward.
Is it a fair, thank you for that.
Is that, is it a fair summary tosay that with intersectionality,
(25:01):
what's happening is though people have different specific
groups or agendas, they're finding a commonality or a
common agenda in either kind of being an oppressed class or
having been victimized or or being seen not as the norm.
Is that a? Is that overly simplistic, or is
that a fair definition? No, I think, I think that's, I,
(25:22):
I think that's it. And I think, I think that's the
only way to really that's, that's the only way people need
to explain it. I think people make it too
complicated when they explain it, but I think that's exactly
it. Like like if you and I are both
hungry, I don't give a damn how you got hungry or, or the
circumstances that got you there.
We're both hungry and, and we need to figure out a way to get
something to eat. Like I'm not going to like it.
(25:45):
It. It's crazy to me that some
people would be like, oh, this guy's only hungry because he
spent all his money and he wasted it.
Well, I don't, I don't care. He's still hungry.
So like, let's figure out a way to eat.
Like, like if, if I'm hungry because somebody stole my food,
that also doesn't matter. Like we're both hungry.
We have a problem, we have a common problem and we need to
figure out how to how to solve it or we're going to start with
(26:06):
them. You know what I mean?
Let me ask, So what you just said I, I find very interesting
this this plays into an idea that often comes up when, when
people talk about social justice, which is do you believe
that injustice is primarily due to individual actions or group
actions, Meaning like individuals commit crimes,
(26:27):
individuals are racist individuals, but also we
classify people typically as groups of black, white, you
know, female, LGBTQ plus, whatever it might be.
Give me your thoughts on injustice as groups versus
individual acts. Well, you know, again, I think
injustice is the, the lack of accountability, right?
(26:49):
I, I think, I think what, what you're talking about is like a,
a, a group of people are a single person can cause harm,
right? Like, and I don't want to get
too, I'm, I'm trying to use likekind of light examples, but
like, sure, if somebody like themonkey everybody loves right
now, punch, you know, like if, if somebody, if one of the
(27:13):
monkeys stole punches and I think he's, you know, you know,
he's doing better now. But if one of the, the, the
older monkeys are bigger monkeysstole punches, plush toy, like
that's a harm committed. The injustice happens when
nobody holds that monkey accountable.
If they have like a monkey courtsystem or whatever.
I don't, I don't know how much, but like so, so injustice is a
(27:36):
lack of accountability because harm is going to happen.
And I'm not so naive and so something to believe that like
we're going to live in a world where harm is completely void.
But injustice happens when there's a lack of
accountability, when there's no room for rehabilitation, when
there's no room for for correction, right.
(27:57):
I think that's the injustice when like the, the, the, the,
the biggest thing that a lot of black people were upset about
during the BLM movement or the peak of the BLM movement is that
we saw so many black people be harmed and killed by police and
we never saw cops really be heldaccountable.
That's the injustice, right? Like cap cops killing people is
(28:21):
going to happen. That is going to happen.
I think nobody is, is, is is assuming that's going to stop
the injustice happens when thosecops are not held accountable.
The injustice happens in our schools when we see certain
schools get funding and other ones don't.
And we live in a state that sayswe care about the education of
all our kids. Well, that's not necessarily
(28:41):
true because there are tons of schools on the east side of 35
that are not getting the same amount of funding and they're
getting closed down. That's an injustice, right?
Like an injustice like the like,yes, that is injustice.
And I think speaking in those terms, I think the injustice is
way more harmful when it happenson a systemic level because we
(29:03):
have these systems in place thatare supposed to bring justice.
We have a legal system that saysif you commit crime, which is if
you commit harm or you bring harm upon your fellow citizen,
we have to hold you accountable.And we've seen time and time
again, harm is inflicted upon certain groups of people,
certain class of people, and there's no justice.
(29:25):
And that's why people are just like, well, what's the point of
this thing then if there's nevergoing to be justice?
So I, and I'm, I'm more concerned about justice on that
broad level because it's so muchmore damning than an individual
level. And I'm not saying we don't do
what we need to do and do the like do the personal work we
need to do to make sure we can reduce the individual levels of
(29:47):
injustice and crime and harm. But when harm happens and then
we have the bar level saying, you know, we're going to do the
right thing and get you the justice that you deserve and
that day never comes, then like that's how you build apathy.
And then apathy is the exact kryptonite of empathy and
sympathy. And it's also the kryptonite of
(30:08):
of movement building because if you once systems crush the
spirit of people, once institutions crush the spirit of
people, that is how they ultimately win.
And that is how they placate us.That is how they keep us.
Just like believing that there'snothing possible to create the
world that we want. So I don't know if that answered
your question all the way, but it felt really good to me.
No, no, dude, that was that. I think that was right.
(30:30):
So, so in in summary, I mean, there's a sense of which you're
saying there's kind of a double injustice.
There's the bad thing that happens and then there's the not
holding it accountable and that creates kind of a snowball
effect. So they're kind of two sides of
the same coin. And OK, you you mentioned
something just a second ago about creating a better world.
And you you mentioned the term utopia at the beginning.
Tell me kind of your views is your view that let me, let me
(30:54):
say it, let me say it a a more precise way.
Do you feel as though humans in a sense are kind of naturally
good, but because of our environments, our institutions,
our education, our upbringing, that's kind of what brings the
bad in the world? Or do you think mankind is more
naturally bad and it's kind of the nature versus nurture
question? What are your what are your
(31:14):
thoughts on that? And I, I think people are, I, I
think we're naturally good like most of us, you know, I think
maybe every now and again, like a wire is crossing some folks.
Like a Hitler, Yeah. And that's the example I use all
the time. You know, like Hitler has some
something was going on up there.But I think for the most part,
we we are inherently good. And you know, life happens in
(31:41):
our response to that is how we choose the path we want to go
down, right? Because like shit happens to
everybody. Like life is extremely unfair.
Bad things are going to happen, bad people are going to happen.
But our response to the to the bad is, is I think what
ultimately builds our character arc.
And then what happens is you just have a ongoing process of
(32:07):
like people going down one of these paths and now you have
more people that are being born into the world or just even
people that's in it. You know, the good cross paths
with the bad and that can also kind of influence the good to go
bad. But vice versa, the good can
(32:27):
influence the bad to go good. But I think inherently like from
start, because like we don't have a reason, like because we,
we don't have any notion of whatrace and class is like we're
just here trying to figure this shit out.
You know what I mean? Sure.
And this society tries to and I say try because all of us don't
(32:49):
believe in it. But it like society tries to
implement in us that, that thereare groups of people that you
should watch out of in like the stereotypes and all the things
and they like. So now you this very
impressionable mind and brain begins to put guard rails up
and, and, and, and it's triggered by things.
(33:10):
But again, I think I, none of that is natural.
I think, I think we, I think we all start to sleep pretty clean.
OK, So what is is is some type like you mentioned.
It can't be a perfect utopia. People are still going to be
people. Do you feel as though humanity's
getting better? Do you feel as though humanity's
getting worse? Do you feel as though there's
more good in the world, more badin the world?
(33:30):
Give me your thoughts on that because that that's kind of
related to these different topics.
Man, yeah, we, we got Trump twice, right?
You know, I mean, like, I think when we got Trump the first
time, I was like, OK, yo, wait aminute, you know what I mean?
And then, and then we got him out.
So I was like, OK, well, maybe, maybe something is right, but
then we got him back again. So like I'm, I'm confused on
(33:52):
that front and the, and the guy's just terrible, man.
Like he, he's just a really inconsiderate, like this
indecent person. And I, I'm, I'm curious as to
why he is that way. And then I also look at what's
going on globally, right? Like we, there's, there's an
ongoing genocide happening in, in several places around the
world. And so and you know, I, I think
(34:15):
if one of one of the people fromthose groups that are living in
that experience right now heard me say, oh, no, the world is
pretty decent place. I think, I think just slightly
inconsiderate and it's maybe unkind.
But I also look at the people that are going through these
situations and I still see that they have hope and they have
resilience and they are persevering through these very
(34:36):
monstrous and like almost demonic times.
And that gives me faith. I also look at, you know, the
students here in Austin that have done, you know, these
massive walk outs in the name ofprotesting against ice.
And that gives me hope. I look at, again, you know,
going back to 2020 when so many people came out, we had one of
the biggest rallies ever in Texas for like, you know,
(34:58):
outside of a Democratic Party type situation.
I'm in the name of George Floyd and like things that give me
hope and knowing that there's somany people just doing really
good work all the time, like people like you that are having
these conversations with people,that gives me hope.
So you know, I and, and I also just believe that it is, I guess
it's like a movie trope, like most movies, the, the, the good
(35:22):
guys always win most of them. Now some movies have like a
really shocked ending, like damn, did not see that
happening. But for the most part, like good
and, and all that is well and well to do turns out all right.
So that, that leaves me hopeful and you know, I, I think, I, I
think, I think we are living in a moment that is challenging us
(35:44):
to rise up and be good and be decent.
And I think only time will tell.So, you know, I, I, I think the
answer to that question is, is it's pending because how we, how
we globally and especially here in a on a home front in America,
how we respond to systems and institutions of like other chaos
(36:05):
of the next couple years are, are going to be so instrumental
and it's so imperative for the future of this country.
So we'll see. I'm, I'm rooting.
I'm I'm, I'm rooting for us, though, yeah.
Yes, rooting for humanity. Yeah, I, I think the global,
global perspective is interesting because, you know,
(36:25):
there, there are some nations that are doing better while
others are doing worse. And then others think it's
awesome. And then there's like North
Korea and you're like, OK, so it's, it's, I don't even know if
it's just a whole humanity thing.
It's always like different sectors of humanity at different
times. And no, that's fascinating.
OK, let me, let me ask you this question because when we talk
about equality there, there's really 2 main kinds of equality.
(36:48):
So I want to get your thoughts on this.
In what ways do you believe thatpeople are equal?
You know, legally, constitutionally, we're all
human, these kind of things. And in what ways are they
unequal? Maybe differences in strength or
intelligence or, or, or money orsomething like that.
And, and how do those things work together?
You can take this question wherever you want, but I I think
it's a fascinating question. Yeah, we're we're all human.
So like we all have the same yeah.
(37:11):
And, and that way we're all equal and.
And in this way, I say, like, like, nobody's actually like,
more special than another. Like, people tell me all the
time that, you know, I'm a really good orator.
I get really good speeches that like, I'm really good at it, at
that thing. But that doesn't make me better
than you, right? That doesn't make me more
special than you. I'm just learning how to tap
into, like, my gifts that I'm like, that I'm just really good
(37:32):
at, like you said. Yeah, of course there are some
things that make us different, right?
Like you and I have a obvious difference.
And of course, some people are stronger than others.
But I, I think these are just gifts and tools in different
presets that we have that we should be using to help our
fellow neighbor, right? Like, thank God we're not all
(37:53):
like £120 and can only like bench press like 10 lbs like,
because then we wouldn't be ableto build and do shit.
But so yeah, you know, I, I, oneof my favorite slogans is from
Android. It's, it's OK to be it.
We're different together, right?Like, which is saying to me that
(38:14):
it's OK to like have flair and have style, but like bring that
back to the collective, right? Like everything that we have
should be used as a gift and a tool to, yes, of course, take
care of ourselves and the thingswe need, but also to take back
to the collective to make the collective whole and, and happy
as well. So it's about using our
(38:34):
different skill sets and talentsto bring back to the collective
because when we're in community,that's when we're really all
equal as well. That's when you start to
understand that, yes, you may bebeing stronger than me, but we
still have some of the same issues, right?
Like you, you may have gone through some, you know,
traumatic issues in your life. And I have two.
And like, that's where we can relate.
(38:54):
And so it's all like community and life experiences always
bring us back together to show us that we are so much more the
same then then we are different,right?
It's only a few things that really, you know, draws a party
like that. It's it's, it's mostly some of
the things you say it like looking appearances.
That's thank you for that. By the way, thank you for that
summary. OK, I've got 2 questions left
(39:16):
unless you have anything. I'll give you a chance also to
say whatever you want to say at the end, if there's anything
else. But two other two kind of final
questions. What do you think the biggest
issues are right now that are affecting your community?
When we talk about social justice specifically with you
specifically in Austin, if you were to just list a few like
these are the biggest things going on, the biggest problems
(39:37):
in the country right now, what would you say those are?
Well, I think there are two mainissues, man.
Like we have an affordability crisis in the country right now.
Things are getting really difficult for a lot of people.
A lot of people are having a hard time living day-to-day
because the price of everything is going up, inflation is out of
the roof, and the wages stay thesame, right?
(40:01):
So affordability is 1. And then the thing that I'm most
concerned about is that we are living in, I think we're living
in a, a replica of the movie Idiocracy.
And I think a large part of thatis due to AI, right?
Like it's so hard for a lot of people to tell was real and
(40:21):
fake. Which can be really dangerous
and in the way AI is being weaponized in that regard gives
me extreme pause right and even like the disregard for like we
know over uses of AI is like really dangerous for certain
communities where AI power plantwater plants are being installed
(40:42):
and set up. And the more I think about it, I
think that this great AI era that we in is going to lead us
to Mad Max, right? Like, and yeah, you know,
because Mad Max it was it was they living in desert because
all the water was gone and waterbecame like the richest
(41:03):
resource. And if, if, if AI uses as much
water as they say it does. And that becomes like the like
water is becoming like the new gold.
So people can make bullshit, youknow, reenactments of things.
It it's so so that couple with the fact that it's also being
(41:24):
weaponized in like political arenas to know or or to to, to
assume that politicians are are some of these things are
happening or not happening. It is very dangerous, man.
And I think when you have an electorate or, or society that
is just dumb like you, you can'tdo anything.
(41:47):
And I think that's what's happening now.
And that's one of my like, we'renot reading anymore like I was.
Well, I'm reading as I can see from my, my fake books back
here. But I wish I would have kept my,
my real camera on because I havea bookshelf behind me with books
like I but I can't remember the last time I seen a person
younger than me, like pick up anactual book, Right.
(42:10):
Like, and there's nothing wrong with Kindles and not like that
because I'm glad you're still reading.
But like, we're getting so far away from like the things that
make us human, right? Like there, there used to be
this really fond appreciation ofcracking open a book and, and,
and immersing yourself in that book, like the physical copy of
the book. So a lot of that stuff gives me
(42:30):
pause And Rory, but, and, and again, like we have to find a
way to like get people employed and raise the minimum wage
across the board and give peoplerespectable living wages.
And then I think at this point, because it's going to happen,
like we're seeing robots take the jobs.
(42:52):
So many people. I, I think the country is going
to have to seriously think aboutthe living wage because if the
robots take all the jobs, but westill need humans to, to
participate in, in the economy, buying groceries, buying food
and things of this nature, but they don't have jobs to pay
them. We have to, we have to, you
(43:12):
know, pump some of that money into people's pockets so they
can keep the economy afloat. Right.
Or, and, and again, like that's my basic understanding of like
economics, because that was not a class I excelled in at all.
But yeah, man. And I think the last thing is
that we are, I think too many ofus are go are playing the, the
(43:33):
extreme game. We're extreme, we're extreme
right. We're extreme left and there's
no middle anymore. Like there's no middle.
There's not a middle class. There's no middle area for
politics. Like you can't even propose to
meet in the middle because people on the other sides feel
betrayed. And I, I think that I think
(43:54):
that's also very, very dangerous.
Like somebody has to be willing to come to the middle and talk
about things and negotiate and, and and say, well, you know, we
both can't get all what we want,but like, where can we meet?
If the fact that we have a dis, a discipline middle and
everything is becoming so polarized?
I think it's also very scary. And I think that's something
that affects all of us, right? And I think even in our
(44:17):
communities, right, you got people that, you know, like
they're only going to vote for the black person because they're
black, which, which is whatever,like what we should be voting
for the best person for the job.Are you going to have people
that's voting for white people just because they're white?
And I don't we've been, we've been doing that, like we've been
doing that trope and like, wherehas that gotten us nowhere.
(44:40):
So I, I think to me, those are some of the biggest things.
And I think the last thing is, Ithink, I think we are getting
further and further away becauseit's never been a cool thing.
We getting, we're getting further and further away from
practicing and understanding love.
(45:00):
I, I think love is also being demonized.
I think love is being weaponizedto say that you're weak, that
you're that, that you show too much sympathy, that you practice
too much empathy. When I would argue that we've
never had a beloved movement in this country, like most of our
movements are built out of righteous anger and righteous
fear in, in, in this quest for like a, a, a better tomorrow.
(45:25):
But like love has really never been the fuel of these
movements. There's always anger.
And I think the further away we move from love that that enables
a few things. Because if I can't love you,
that means I can't see you. If I can't see you, it's easy
for me to dehumanize you and it's easy.
And if it's easy for me to dehumanize you, it's credit it,
(45:48):
it's vastly or it's, it's hyper easy for me to crush you, right?
Because if I just see you as an object and not a person, not a
person that has a family, not a person that, that has emotions
and feelings and all these things and all these other
people that may care about you, if I don't see your importance
or your value, it's very easy for me to commit harm to you.
(46:12):
So the more we, we let these polar opposites tell us that
we're at war with one another, it's, it's, it's, it's only
going to make it very easy for us to, to literally go at each
other's necks. You know what I mean?
I think that's something that I've been learning.
So it's just like I've been learning how to, how can I make
(46:32):
sure that I'm talking about loveand everything that I do, I'm in
a way that makes sense in a way that's practical to people and
let people know that I'm, again,this is we, we've never tried to
love movement ever. And, you know, let's just give
it a go and see what happens, you know?
Yeah, and you're not you're you'll be scorned if you try to
love somebody of your opposing tribe.
(46:53):
So you're allowed to love certain people.
You're not allowed to love somebody of the other, you know,
political persuasion or, or other tribe.
And I think one of the things you said also thought was
really, really helpful and really interesting.
And This is why we like, regardless of our views or
whatever, the reason that I likehaving different people and
stuff on the podcast is conversation is the way to start
(47:14):
healing some of this divide. Because right now it's just pure
tribalism. It's just, you know, memes
versus each other and making funof each other.
And there's like hatred. And so that there's something
different when you read a book by somebody of an opposing view,
when you sit down over coffee ora beer or whatever with somebody
of an opposing view and you actually talk, yeah, you might
still disagree on some stuff, but you you've humanized them.
(47:35):
You're like, OK, I get why they're doing that.
They're not just being stupid. I or whatever.
Like there is a way to to, to befriends and disagree, but our
culture, like you said, hates that we, we don't just have even
left and right anymore. It's like far left or far right.
And, and so that's, that's fascinating.
Thank you for your thoughts on that.
OK, last thing, what would you like any other resources you
(47:57):
want to promote for people? What we'll put a link to your
website and stuff when this podcast goes out to it'll be mid
March, but we'll put a link there where people can check
that out. Any resources are kind of final
thoughts that you have just to be like, hey, here's what I
think you need to consider listeners, or here's a book I'd
recommend or whatever you want to say.
Now I actually have some books. I think one of my favorite books
(48:21):
of all time is I want to make sure I get it right.
Until We Reckon by Daniel Saric,just a fantastic book talks
about until we reckon with this racial problem in America,
you're going to keep having these problems. 2nd book is by
Bill hooks all about love and really that whole series of
(48:42):
love. I really recommend people read.
And then my last book is for men, also by Bill hooks, The
will to change where she asks usand invites us in to re examine
and redefine masculinity for ourselves.
And that book has helped me tremendously.
Man like it. It is that is probably my Bible
(49:02):
that along with The Alchemist, which is my favorite book of all
time, my number one favorite book of all time, like never
changing in Will Smith's book, which is also really good for
men too. So, and I also think that's the
that's the point of life that I'm into.
While I'm also doing all the activist stuff.
I've been really passionate about checking in on the mental
(49:24):
health of men because I know menhave really, we bought, we, we
put too much stock into the ideaof the, the, we put too much
stock into the wrong idea of masculinity to where it, it's
all about anger and control and you can't have feelings and
emotions. So I've been really, really
leaning into that. And, you know, we do the series
(49:46):
called Bro Brunch where it's a safe space for men to just come
out and we of course have music and food and stuff like that,
but we also practice group therapy.
We check in with one other and stuff like that.
So other than that, man, you know, just, I encourage
everybody to go have conversation with people that
you don't think you would have otherwise.
(50:06):
You know, like we got to start, we got, we got to build that
middle like, and, and it's not going to be easy and it's not
going to be fast, but we, we have to rebuild the middle
because the middle is where the magic happens, you know, and at
least I think so. We don't get anything by
operating in echo chambers. We don't get anything by singing
to the choir and we don't get anything by acting like the bad
Girls Club where we are the MeanGirls.
(50:28):
Whatever. I the, the, the, the, the idea
of the role I have it's, it's, it's plentiful.
We have enough, we have enough of what we need.
And I think once we start tapping into one another, we can
understand that because I'm in aplace in my life to where I
understand my biggest resource is my neighbor.
(50:49):
It's not the number of shoes I got in my closet, which is a
pretty good amount. It's not like the number of
awards I have and stuff like that.
It's about how I can connect with other people around me and
how I can make a good impressionon their lives and hopefully
contaminate them with kindness to when they didn't want to
spread it to everybody else. So, yeah, just, you know, like,
(51:12):
like Ellen used to say who I think we've, I think society has
done Ellen wrong. You know, like she wasn't
perfect, but one thing she reminded us to do all the time
was be kind of one another, right?
And I think that's my, that would be my, my sign out here
today. Yeah, well, Chaz Moore, Austin
Justice Coalition, thank you so much for taking the time to to
(51:33):
chat with us and to to share your views.
And for everybody listening, thanks so much for checking us
out again. We'll have a link to to his
website here at the bottom. And thanks for watching us on
ideological. We will see you next time.
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