December 12, 2025 • 60 mins
KCAA: Just Say KNOW with Maria, by Green Bee Life on Fri, 12 Dec, 2025
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Working Families, Teamsters nineteen thirty two dot Org.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello again and welcome to Just Say No, where we
spotlight the innovators behind cannabis's news products and the groundbreaking
ideas driving the legal cannabis movement with some of the
smartest minds in the industry. Thank you for tuning in.
I'm your host Maria Calabrese on KCAA Radio ten fifty
(00:29):
Am one oh six point five FM. I'm honor. I'm
privileged to be joined today by an incredible panel of
voices that are as lively as they are diverse. Alan
Shore is an entrepreneur, cannabis investor, and multiple Tony Award
winning Broadway producer who brings his expertise from a variety
(00:52):
of industries to the cannabis space. Zeth Rutherford is the
founder of Waterworks, providing a sustainable water management system to
the island of Nantucket, and an owner operator of an
award winning dispensary in Massachusetts. Seth joins us with roots
in agriculture since childhood, and Rabbi Yakov Cohen. Rabbi Cohen
(01:17):
is the founder of Whole Kosher Services and the president
of Returning Light, a nonprofit dedicated to the study of
Torah and Kabbalah. He will share insights into the intersection
of faith, tradition, and kosher certified cannabis. Together, we'll dive
into some of the most pressing topics shaping the cannabis landscape,
(01:40):
included what it really takes to start a cannabis business
given the threats and challenges of operating legally in a
federally illegal space green rush or bust, and most importantly,
in the spirit of the holiday season, we'll explore lessons
and perseverance learned from the story of Hanukkah and the
(02:01):
concept of kosher cannabis and what it means to be
kosher certified cannabis. So get cozy, but not to cozy
if you're driving, and get ready to find out what
happens when a Broadway producer, a rabbi, and a farmer
walk into a dispensary. Because the rules and regulations we
establish now at the crossroads of federal legalization will shape
(02:25):
the future of cannabis for generations to come. So let's
dig in and explore just what's at stake.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars, and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Each and every year.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
I can see so much, Yon moroses, Yon monases.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I'm a better guy who has only.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Begon, taking me a while to get it, had to
live and.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Cry to appreciate Lafe and.
Speaker 5 (03:28):
What you give his word, when you're holding you, when
you hold me so close, someone better and under your skin.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Welcome everyone, today's show. I'm looking forward to exploring today's
topics through the lens of innovation, resilience, and Honikah. In Hebrew,
Honekkah means dedication, and the holiday celebrates the rededication of
the Temple in Jerusalem in the second century BC, after
a small but determined and blessed group of Jewish fighters
(04:00):
liberated it from occupying forces. So what does this have
to do with cannabis, you're probably wondering. Well, despite its
legalization in most states, cannabis remains federally classified as a
Schedule one drug, a designation the falsely, and I might add,
recklessly equates it with dangerous substances like LSD or heroin,
(04:23):
to have no medical value and a high potential for abuse. Yeah,
this contradiction creates unique challenges for the plant entrepreneurs, consumers,
and advocates forcing their very existence. They're very survival against
significant odds that affect us. All. I've asked our panel
(04:47):
to join us today. I wanted to start with Alan Shore,
as an entrepreneur in the space, to give us an
overview of the challenges of starting a cannabis business in
today's legal landscape. Well, Alan, so good to see you again.
Speaker 6 (05:04):
Alan, It's nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Also, thank you, thank you for joining us. You're going
to have great insights. But before diving in, I like
you to tell our listeners a little bit about your
entrepreneurial background in your own words.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
I didn't realized I was an entrepreneur until somebody told
me I was. So. I was always trying to do
things differently, and from the time that I really went
to left college, you know, graduated, until to the rest
of my life, I always thought there are better ways
(05:37):
to do things, and the people that I was working
for and doing other things, I thought, well, I'll try
it my way. And then somebody said, well, you're really
an entrepreneur, and I said, okay, Well if that's what
you want to call me. So my background was in
music theater and something that has nothing to do with
music in theater, which is accounting and finance. But believe
(06:00):
it or not, they do go together. And as a
result of that, what I've been able to do is
employ my skills from an accounting and from a financial
background to help create different companies in the financial services
world now the cannabis world. And believe it or not,
(06:21):
the accounting and financial skills that I've acquired over the
years has really helped me in being a producer in
the theater world because it's really about numbers, and part
of that is making sure that you stay with the budget,
that the budget's correct and everything has done the right way.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
If you've never had the pleasure of being in Woody
Allen's office in New York, over his desk, he has
a sign that says it show business right, not show show,
So you are spot on. How do you connect these
skills to this on a bus industry the.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
Same way you would connect the skills to any industry.
Being in the financial services world is one of the
most highly regulated, least I thought highly regulated industries in
the world. You've got multiple agencies. Governmental non governmental agencies
are always looking over your shoulder. You've got all kinds
of compliance issues that you have to adhere to. So
(07:25):
the cannabis business is similar the fact that it's regulated.
You've got compliance issues, You've got the same financial concerns
of any other business. So the skill set that a person,
any person might have in running or starting or managing
a business, can be employed and can be an entrepreneur
(07:46):
in any kind of business, including the cannabis business. And
without that skill set, it's going to be very challenging
for anyone to be successful really in any business. And
part of that, and the most important part of that,
which is true again for any kind of business, is
surrounding yourself with people that are better than you, that
(08:08):
know more than you, and they're specific whatever it is
that they do, whether it's growing or in the cannabis
business or whoslesale, whatever it happens to be, and letting
them take the ball, let them run with it. If
they make a mistake, they make a mistake, but certainly
let them do the things that they do best and
stay out of their way so that everybody stays in
(08:29):
their own lane. And if you allow that to happen.
The chance of success are greater than if you try
to step into somebody else's position or somebody else's lane.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, before I dive deep in with you into advice
for starting a cannabis business, speaking of surrounding yourself with
people smarter than you, I am surrounded by it's an
embarrassment of riches. So I just want to bring in
now the rabbi to tell a little bit about his
(09:04):
background in his own words, and what he has to
do with cannabis, and then we'll bring seven and then
we'll dive into the interview with my first question to Alan, Rabbi, welcome,
great to be here, very special to have you here
because I understand you were in Israel. Yes, I'd love
(09:26):
to have you tell us a little bit about yourself
and your own words.
Speaker 7 (09:30):
Okay, quickly, you know, I was not always like many
people were, not a rabbi before the rebbie. I wasn't
raised religious. I was raised very secular. I didn't become
religious until I went to Israel when I was nineteen
years old, and then I was in a rabbinical school
and spent nineteen years there and then got married, raised
(09:52):
a family, started a family and then moved to Texas,
so and that's when I got involved in being involved
in kosher food and kosher services, and of course it
branched out. And the quick background story is I had
a son who was diagnosed as having brain cancer. He
(10:17):
did pass away after a year and a half, but
during that time he when he had a relapse, we
were introduced into cannabis. I had already been doing kosher
food production and giving kosher certification to various other industries,
but here was the cannabis industry.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
My son was.
Speaker 7 (10:40):
I was trying to give him cannabis in terms of
all of the research that was done. And so my
father and some friends says, why don't you go and
work and see about making cannabis kosher because this and
it has such medicinal properties. People need it. People got
to be looking for it, and I'll be much more
(11:00):
comfortable if it's kosher. So that's when I reached out
to was what we spoke Tracy Ryan of Cana Kids
other places in California. I think that's where it started
first and started to make very many products kosher, offering
kosher services until I and then of course I was
(11:21):
introduced to two five three Organic on the on the
East coast. Yeah, that was great man. Yeah, so you know,
I was really excited to go there and help them
out in terms of getting their kosher certification. It was
a really a lot of fun. It's such an awesome dispensary,
(11:42):
a great place to visit, to drive there, it's just amazing.
So and I always enjoy going and making my usual
routine kosher visits.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Oh that's amazing, amazing. My my dulences for your son,
and my hats off to you for when western medicine
doesn't have a solution for going beyond. I can't even
imagine as a parent, first of all, going through something
(12:16):
like that, Second of all, having to make the decision
to try cannabis and to have gotten to that point
to have to do that.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And it was very experimental, like nobody knew really knew
what was going on.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Then, right, you mentioned canna kids, Josh and Tracy Ryan.
They're just an amazing, amazing couple, And of course they're
little girl Sophie who was afflicted with a brain tumor,
and you know, back then, I mean what a mom
will do for their child. Tracy actually was able to
(12:54):
get Cedar Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles to give her
a piece of her two year old's brain tissue. Yeah,
and she transported it herself and in iglu cooler on
a plane to Israel. Could you just tell us quickly
before we bring in the next smart one here smarter
than all of us, Seth, just tell us a little
(13:16):
bit about the difference in how Israel approaches medical Malwana
and Malawana. In the United States.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
It is stricter, it's harder to get a prescription, it's
only medicinal and have a very tight knit on the
production where it flows and things like that. You know,
it's not so easy you could just walk into a dispensary.
It's it's you know, So there are much a few
more hoops to go through in order to get the medicine.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yes, the hoops aside, it is medically available and has
been for decades. So what they have on the United
States and the rest of the world is a jump
on the rece search in fact it Yeah, so they
haven't had that obstacle or burden. So they were.
Speaker 7 (14:07):
When we were in Texas with our son Alisha, we
were debating whether to go to California or Israel, because
Israel had the research, but we wouldn't be able to
access it if we Oh, so we went.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
We opted to go to California.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yes, So it's you know, legalization. It impacts so many
people from so many different walks of life in so
many different ways.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
We're all, we're all we're trying to crawl out of
the stigma.
Speaker 7 (14:36):
You know, we're trying to help people crawl out of
the stigma, which is really what I'm about, you know,
because to make it available and offer it to be kosher,
you know, medicinal wise. You know, still a lot of
people in my circles are still very much against it,
even though it's inedible, even though it's you know, medicinal.
(14:57):
They'll let it, but usually buy and large, you know,
they still have that stigma there.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
We've got amount and to climb. But I'm glad we're
doing it.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
The Maccabees are about right.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
That's right, and I'm glad against the big Fed that's right.
Speaker 6 (15:19):
South. I have I have a question for.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
The rabbi Okay, sorry Seth oh my goodness, guy, Alan.
Speaker 6 (15:25):
When Moses went up to Mount Sinai in the Burning Bush,
what was that bush made of and where he saw.
Speaker 8 (15:32):
Oh my goodness, when the god Alaska, oh.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
A Alan, when the gods spoke, there was smoke. So
absolutely so set Set. You have your roots is having
been working on a farm since the age of eleven
years old. Somehow the labor laws that was legal. But
(16:03):
all right, don't get me started. So and you have
this background and knowledge and sustainable agriculture. You're the founder
of water Works, having come up with a water management
system to serve as islands like the island of Nantucket.
And you are a co owner and operator of one
(16:27):
of Massachusetts's most premier award winning pharmacies, two five to
three pharmacy. That's pharmacy with an F. So tell us
a little bit about yourself and two five to three pharmacy.
And Allen, I want you taking notes because we're going
to do cannabis the musical.
Speaker 6 (16:45):
Okay, well, we actually did something like that called Flight
over Sunset a few years ago. That just didn't work,
but it was it wasn't cannabis, it was other drugs.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
All right.
Speaker 9 (17:02):
Well, Maria, to start up, start off by thank you
for having me. I very much appreciate your time and
being able to join. I'm a Massachusetts resident born and
raised in Western Mass and Western mass you know, as
you as you stated, is really all about agriculture here.
I live here right here in Hadley and Hadley, mass
(17:23):
is you know, has has I think the second best
top soil in the world behind San Joaquin Valley in California.
And I ended up marrying into a farming family as well,
farming anything from tobacco to asparagus to corn. And you know,
they do have some cattle kicking around for all the
excess you know, vegetables that they don't sell.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
And so when I was.
Speaker 9 (17:44):
Twenty one, I had an opportunity to move down to
Nantucket with my partner.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
So, you know, Joe and I moved down to Nantucket
and started water works. And we're very.
Speaker 9 (17:54):
Fortunate to move to a place like Nantucket and have
an end and you know, work for some probably you know,
some of the the wealthiest people in the world that
really care about their landscapes and care about their homes.
And really gave myself an education there, just you know, learning,
you know, learning all the different aspects of you know,
building sustainable landscapes. I was, I was, I was elected
(18:15):
to what was called the Article sixty eight board. What
the Article sixty eight board was. We were trying to
find a way to limit the nitrogen and phosphorus use
on Nantucket so that we would not.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Pollute our estuaries.
Speaker 9 (18:25):
And we and through that board, we we developed a
b MP which is the best management practice and currently
I believe it still is the strictest in the state
on nitrogen use. And we lived with the nitrogen use
on Nantucket to three pounds per thousand and so that
we really try to educate, you know, landscapers and the
tradesmen and women, you know, how to properly apply fertilizers
(18:48):
so that you are not you you're you're keeping a
healthy landscape, but you're not damaging you know, the environment
around you.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
And you know, cannabis was always you know, I always
used it.
Speaker 9 (18:59):
I'm a very energetic individual and I always use cannabis
as a way to calm down, in a way to
just melow myself out. And I've always had a real
passion for it. And from there, you know, in two
thousand and eight came around, we really had a passion
to get into it. You know, we're builders, we're in
the landscape trade. We understand you know, plant water maintenance,
(19:22):
and we ended up you know, finding very very fortunate
enough to find Out and Marsha as partners. And I
think that's one of the really things that separates two
five three is the partnership that we were able to
bring together because we were able to bring professionals from
all different you know, walks of life, lawyers, financial people,
(19:42):
construction people, landscape people, and really kind of bring everyone
together to run a very complex industry that doesn't have data,
you know.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
To look up and to see what to do.
Speaker 9 (19:54):
It's really something that you know, you have to really
make good decisions and see them through and pivot on
a dime if the decisions that you made seem to
be going in the wrong direction. And so, you know,
we ended up partnering Chris and I partnered with Alan
and Marsha and we built their own facility.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
We operate our own facility.
Speaker 9 (20:14):
So, you know, a very unique company, and we really
worry about quality. Worry about bringing a quality product to
the table for customers, something that a customer could find
relief in whatever they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Well, I'm you're a perfect spot when to segue from quality.
We're twenty minutes into the show, and in California it
is for twenty So every show at four twenty, we
have a segment called quick Hits. So We're going to
get a quick hit where I'm going to ask the
(20:48):
Rabbi to drop a knowledge bomb for us. And the
quick hit that I'm going to ask him is, Rabbi,
what is kosher and and how does it become certified?
Speaker 7 (21:03):
So you know, talk about what kosher is. First of all,
you have to understand kosher does not mean blessed.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
By the Rabbi.
Speaker 7 (21:11):
Okay, there's a serious laws the criteria that comes from
the Five Books of Moses, covering an entire spectrum of
different foods, everything from meat to dairy, fish, fowl, bugs,
and grapes. So all of these different levels of food
or areas of food have different criteria that meets kosher standards.
(21:33):
Like your animal needs two signs to be a kosher animal, right, alan,
you know which two signs those are.
Speaker 6 (21:41):
It has to its cud and it has to have
to its cud and have a clooned hoof.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, dinging ning thing. We should mass ad for the
knowledgebar Rabbi.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Of the day.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
Okay, it came from a very religious home and became
secular later.
Speaker 7 (22:03):
So yeah, so that's an animal has to have those signs.
And even if it has those signs and it's not
properly ritually slaughtered, it's not kosher. So if if cow
was not killed in the ritual slaughterway, even though it's
a kosher animal. So anything of that cow or any
derivative of that which gets into cannabis because of a gelatin.
(22:28):
For the most of the industry uses gelatin either from
a pig or cow, that not kosher. That to make
their gummies. Okay, of course many are making from pectin.
That's a different story. Well let's say dairy, we don't
mix milk and meat. You know, we have an issue
of bugs. Now, just to zero win on cannabis, the
(22:50):
plant itself, like any other plant or vegetable, has no
problems with being kosher, like an apple or a banana.
The only issues with certain vegetables or fruits is a
predominance of insects because we're not allowed to eat a bug.
According to the Torah, we break six five or five commandments.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
If we eat a bug. Okay, and if you know
there's bugs in there, you gotta wash it and check
it before you eat it.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Were a friend of green bee.
Speaker 7 (23:22):
Yeah, green bee. I was wondering was it a bee
that's green or the okay? So the plants themselves. I
did go to Mendocina. We gave a Kosher certificate to
a farm there. I did check there and they have
these very little insects called thrips in the buds. Talk
(23:44):
about the flower tops. So I asked a very big
rabbi about it, and he says, well, because most of
the people are burning it because they're smoking it, so
the bugs are getting burned.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
So there's no problem of the.
Speaker 7 (23:58):
Bugs if they're eating it late in a salad which
some people I've been prescribed in California.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Raw yes, raw form.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
So then you have an issue.
Speaker 7 (24:08):
It has to be cleaned of bugs and don't even
know if it can be because of the stickiness of it.
So therefore, predominantly mostly so the flower tops really don't
really need a Kosher certification, but it helps because of marketing.
Because don't forget, kosher is not just for religious Jews.
(24:28):
Kosher Kosher could extend to Muslims, vegetarians, vagans, and health
conscientious people looking for that there's a third set of
eyes looking on this product to guarantee that it's safe.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (24:44):
So that's why people in a grocery store, sixty percent
of the things in the grocery store are having a
Kosher symbol on it. Sixty percent of the items in
any grocery store now in the United States, and people
will always choose an item with a Kosher symbol over
item without.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
A kocher sold because they know there was another pair
of eyes.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
It's a marketing, it's a gold standard. It's a gold standard, correct.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
So then yes, absolutely, So then when you now moving
on past the bug So then when you process the
bugs into oil, so then you get into solvents and
things that come in contact with the plant. So you
have to make sure those solvents are coming from kosher sources.
The biggest solvent that's used most likely today is.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Is ethanol. Now ethanol, everybody will instantly think it's it's corn,
it's weed.
Speaker 7 (25:36):
It's not necessarily. There are ethanols that are made from
grapes which present a kosher issue. Because we have a
very strict rule about our grapes, even grape juice. It
has to be squeezed from an observant jew until it's bottled.
For sure, wine, because we use it in rituals all
the time, the rabbis made very strict decrees that it
(25:57):
has to be a Jewish wine. So ethanol could be
made from grapes. Ethanol could also be made from whey,
which is a cheese, which is also a big, huge
kosher issue. So we have to make sure that the
ethanol or any solvents that are used in order to
turn to make the oils have to come from kosher sources.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
And then when you go.
Speaker 7 (26:17):
Onto that, let's say when you're making your intivals, like
any other kosher material, all the materials have to be kosher.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
The chocolate, the sugar.
Speaker 7 (26:26):
The flavorings, the gummies, the pectin, all of those items
have to meet certain certain specific kosher criteria in order
to be kosher okay. So and then there's a course
to maintain the equipment. So that's the kosher industry in
a nutshell.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Oh, it's fascinating. And what's really fascinating is I'm going
to just start a movement that everyone in Congress, everyone
and all the decision makers have to get bar mitz
foot because you guys were able to work this out
with Jewish law, but America I don't know. So thank you,
(27:07):
my goodness, say it can, there it can. There's always
a solution, which brings me to the cannabis. Running a
cannabis business Alan. The cannabis industry is estimated to employ
over a half a million people right. It includes approximately
twelve thousand licensed retail locations. It's estimated to earn thirty
(27:32):
billion dollars a year, more than the Baseball League, National
Football League, and NBA combined. Yeah, it remains classified as
a Schedule one substance, presenting passive challenges that, like you said,
startups and other industries aren't faced with. So my question
(27:55):
to you is, given the current legal landscape and the
challenges that they present to running cannabis business, who is
making all the money? Is anybody making any money? And
what inspired you to enter this space?
Speaker 6 (28:12):
All right? So the first question is really easy to answer.
Who's making all the money? The regular the state for life.
With the tax that the Feds, they're making all the
money because they're they're taxing cannabis companies on income that
they don't really have, and the tax that cannabis companies
(28:36):
have to pay is different than any other industry in
the United States. So that's that's So that's the easy
answer to your question. What's what inspired the question? Was
what inspired me to do this? Yes, well, not understanding
what the federal regulators were going to taxes on and
(28:59):
the audience. The idea that with any business, if you
can run it efficiently and you you can mitigate the
tax issues that you can, and you have good partners
and you know what you're doing, then you can you
can make it work despite the tax burden. So that
that's really what it was. Because I had no clue,
(29:21):
I mean, not a sintilla of an idea of cannabis
up until the time I met Seth and Chris.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Nothing, none of us did. I I can't tell you
how many people in the state of California didn't vote
for League Station or say they wish they hadn't.
Speaker 6 (29:39):
Yeah. So it's you know, it's a business just like
show business, or the or the legal business, or the
broad you know, it's the entertainment business in general, and
it all has its quirks, but the cannabis. Cannabis business
is probably at least in Massachusetts, the most regulated industry
in the entire state with a high burden of taxation.
(30:02):
And that's just not it's not basically not fair.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
And I thought California was higher.
Speaker 6 (30:10):
I don't I don't think so. I think we're talking
about federal taxes and federal state federal.
Speaker 7 (30:17):
Wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute, Federal
Schedule one.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Correct, Yet they're right able to tax it. Excuse me,
isn't it considered to be federally what did what? What? Group?
Group one or level one?
Speaker 6 (30:33):
Yeah? Right, yeah, so it doesn't allow you to take
deductions for in the ordinary course of business, without getting
too technical, Intersection one sixty two ordinary business expenses that
every other business is able to take, accelerated appreciation and
other things that businesses are entitled to, and therefore you're
(30:55):
paying tax on literally phantom income. And that's just yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Two eighty originated in nineteen eighty one during the Reagan administration.
I'll tell you, Rabbi and Seth, I know Alan, you
know this. I'm not sure if you do a set
but it came about when a convicted cocaine trafficker argued
in court that he should be allowed to deduct his
legitimate business expenses, the zip ties for his cocaine trafficking, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera,
(31:26):
And despite his business being illegal, he was able to
deduct business expenses. So two eighty eight came in response
to that, Congress established the rule which prohibits anyone involved
in trafficking controlled substances from deducting their business expenses. And
(31:49):
as long as cannabis is on that list of controlled substances,
it can't deduct any of its expenses such as becoming certified, kosher,
storage and transportation, banking, franchise fees, packaging, marketing, none of
it is tax deduct dimetric bills. There you go, So
(32:10):
I could speak for I think a legal cannabis operator
could face a federal tax rate of around seventy percent
in addition to the state and local taxes. And on
top of this, in Los Angeles there's a five percent
excise tax.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
So need the analogy there.
Speaker 9 (32:30):
You know, if you're running a retail store, and if
you did a million dollars a year in business, and
a half a million dollars was the product that that
retail store bought to resell, that retail store would pay
tax on a half a million dollars. The only thing
you would be able to duct is the product you bought,
so you would you would pay tax on your labor.
You're parking, you know, your your snow plowing, anything above
(32:53):
and beyond. And so you know, in the early days
when the margins were high, and I'm talking the early
days of Massachusetts when we opened in nineteen margins were high.
There wasn't a lot of retail stores. We were able
to pull pull profits. As this industry continues to condense
and get saturated, it's really become catastrophic for companies.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
And you know, they're just not able to.
Speaker 9 (33:16):
Survive on margins because you need exponential margins to continue
to pay The federal government.
Speaker 6 (33:23):
Told you he was smart.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Is it still getting saturated in the market in your opinion?
Speaker 9 (33:29):
Well, I think, you know, I mean, I mean the
answer to that is I stutter a little bit. I
think we're hopefully on the verge of coming the other way.
You know, we we were down to like four dollars
and fifty cents a gram on the retail side. And
when we get down to four dollars a gram.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Producers can't produce it for two dollars a gram and
stay live.
Speaker 9 (33:50):
And so when I'm talking to retail at four fifty,
so when the retail's four and these retail stores are keystoning,
we're very close to the bottom. If we're not there
that and just in the last month we've seen some
very big operators close their doors in Massachusetts, and I
think that that's going to continue. And so, you know,
to get back to you know what Almon was saying
(34:12):
about cannabis. You know how how it's how it's very unique,
can't you know? Instead of you know a lot of
businesses where you're you're looking to increase revenues. In cannabis,
you're looking to reduce costs. You run that business on
cost base and you don't take risks of costs are
associated due to the taxes because those costs turn into
(34:33):
income to you and you have to pay more phantom income.
And so it's a very difficult business. So it's really
a lean and mean business model to stay alive and debthly.
Like I say, you know, people ask, well, how do
you survive in cannabis? And it's facetious, right, but it's like, well,
don't write a check because every check you write his
income to you.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Even though you're giving it to someone else.
Speaker 9 (34:56):
Okay, so it's you know, it's really you know, it's
kind of the you know, it says you really have
to be very cognitive of how you operate. And you know,
at two five three, we've always taken the approach where
we don't have a huge wholesale department and we don't
kind of have a ton of marketing because a lot
of companies get themselves in trouble where they they spend
(35:17):
more to make less, and you really have to watch
your bottom lines and be conservative and concentrate on yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
You should have a blessing. You should have a blessing
and continued blessing for continued success and growth.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Well Alan and Seth, and even with the rabbis blessing,
you gave the best advice. You have to go low
and slow. You have to be leaning mean. You have
to be able to survive legalization. And it's it's really
a conundrum because you don't have access to financing that
(35:54):
other startups have. Many financial institutions aren't going to want
to touch it if government's deeming it illegal Aria.
Speaker 6 (36:03):
I'll give you an example of how bad it is.
I had an American Airlines advandaged City Bank card, and
I got about a year and a half ago, I
got a notice of them saying we've canceled your card
and I said why, and they said, because you own
an interest in a cannabis company and it's federally illegal.
(36:26):
I said, oh. At the same time, they're also City
Bank banks the State of New York's cannabis business. So
it's like, okay, well, why can you do one or
not the other. But that's how bad it's become at.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Times it is. And you know, necessity is the mother
of invention. So anyone who can survive this should be
on the cover of Fortune five hundred. I mean, it's
going to take minds as bright as this panel. And
it never hurts that with the Rabbi's blessing, But all
(36:58):
these entrepreneurs that jumped in believing, hey, this is going
to be the next Silicon Valley, it's the next big
giant among growth industries. Guys, it's a green revolution, not
a green rush. So if you're thinking of going into it,
be prepared to join the revolution.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
Well, I'll go one step further, Maria. Unless you're at
least in Massachusetts, unless you're vertically integrated, you cannot make money, period,
It's just impossible.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Can you explain to our listeners what a vertically integrated
license means?
Speaker 6 (37:36):
I can now because Seth taught me, So I'm gonna
let Seth my teacher, explain it better than me.
Speaker 9 (37:41):
So a vertically integrated facility, a vertically integrated means that
you do everything yourself, where you have your own cultivation, manufacturing,
and your retail outlets. And so it's really in Massachusetts,
it's really coming down to the verticals are able to
you know, whether this storm much easier than standalone standalone retailers.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
If they're at a very good location, they'll do okay.
Speaker 9 (38:07):
Standalone cultivators and standalone manufacturers, unfortunately, are taking a.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Beating right now.
Speaker 9 (38:14):
And it's really not fair because the wholesale rates, like
I explained before, are so bad at four dollars and
you know, at two dollars and twenty five cents if
you want to, if you want.
Speaker 4 (38:24):
To look at it that way, they're they're virtually not
making anything.
Speaker 9 (38:27):
And and a lot of these and a lot of
the small companies are mom and pop companies like two
five to three that have invested everything they've had to
get into this, and you know, there a lot of
them are tied to all sorts of leases and personal
guarantees and it's in you know, and in another really
unfortunate fact in the cannabis industry is there is no bankruptcy.
Speaker 4 (38:47):
You go, you go into receivership and you lose everything
you own.
Speaker 9 (38:50):
And and I think that's why a lot of people
hang on longer than one might think they would. But it's,
you know, it's it's it's definitely not all roses behind
the scenes. And the states, the state always and the
federal government always, you know, puts out how much sale,
how many, how much sales there are, but it really
(39:10):
doesn't equate to the to the profits behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Wow. And I'd like to just move on before turning
to the strength that we can glean from the story
of Hanukkah'd like to move on to how all of
these federal inaction, all the competing state regulatory down to
the local level, all the different federal agencies commission to
(39:35):
protect consumers, how all of this regulatory game of pipon
affects innovation and at the end of the day, the
consumer getting quality, let alone kosher certified cannabis. What's the
impact that this is going to have.
Speaker 9 (39:57):
Well, I think that's probably the same for any industry,
as you know, desperate times or take people take desperate measures,
and so I think that's really the unfortunate fact. And
you know, people need to stay alive, they need to eat,
they need to feed their family, and you know, when
when when when when When you get into a situation
like that, you know you you probably at times aren't
putting out the best products due to you know, do
(40:17):
those type of reasons.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
So it's very unfortunate.
Speaker 9 (40:20):
I think anytime you have an affluent business, you know,
you know, those type of things are much easier to accomplish,
and so, you know, it's it's it's it's a it's
it's unfortunate where where where we are right now, as
people are just trying to survive, you know, for two
five three, you know, we don't break any we don't
(40:40):
try to break any rules or break any rules, and
we really just try to stick with quality because as
hard as it is to continue to stay on that line,
eventually it will pay off. But it's just it's a
grind and you know, we're edging our name into a
piece of stone right now. And we're definitely not done yet.
But you know, if you do it right, and you
(41:00):
continue to do it right, there will be hite at
the other side.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Nothing last forever.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yes, and if you have regulations that facilitate and energize
and promote your being able to do it right. Here's
a not so fun sacked Rabbi. You were talking about
Los Angeles. There are more weed stores in LA than Starbucks,
but more than seventy percent of the LA dispensaries are illegal.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Amazing, and there's no crackdown on them.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
No crackdown. That's with all the taxes that the legal
guys are paying. Their question is where is the enforcement.
Where are those tax dollars going? They're not going into
a forcement And it's I want to try to get
Mayor bass on and speak and just regulators to We're
(41:56):
trying to understand why the police I'm sorry, turn a
blind eye and not to mention it's it's it explains
why huge amount of the biggest legal cannabis companies valued
it up to three billion dollars recently filed for bankruptcy.
Speaker 7 (42:20):
Is there any movements out there as far as let's
say like fixing the regulations, deregulating or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
On the National Cannabis Industry Association, which could use support.
It is the National Cannabis Industry Association out of Washington, DC,
but they have a strong presence in Los Angeles. They're trying,
but they have their lobbyists. The multi state operators have
their own lobbyists and the industry is splintered. So finding
(42:56):
guys like Seth and Allen in yourself, I have an
interest in high quality premium up to the gold standard
of kosher cannabis.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Heart has to be in it your heart.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
The heart has to be That's right.
Speaker 4 (43:11):
It does.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Yeah, So speaking of heart, Rabbi, the story behind kosher
cannabis a lot of heart. I'm sorry it came to
you through such a tragedy with your son, but can
you talk to us about the story of cannabis and
(43:34):
maybe some lessons that people in the cannabis industry.
Speaker 7 (43:38):
One very you know, we had a very there's a
very big Hasidic rabbi lived about two hundred years ago.
He was two and fifty years ago. He's called the
Balishem Tove. He was like a really big innovator in
terms of Jewish practice. He completely just gave an in
depth way that how Judaism can be approached and everybody
(43:59):
can have a direct personal relationship with God. And he
had one of his followers was also a tremendous scholar,
and he said this about an interesting question that maybe
people that might have contemplated, was if you look in
the world and most of the medicines.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Of the world they come from herbs. Correct, would you.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Say, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Listen to this, Where does that come from? Or why
is that so? Okay? So here's a little story. On
the third day of creation.
Speaker 7 (44:36):
We know that God created the world in six days,
rested on the seven In the third day of creation,
God created.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
The trees and the plants and the grasses.
Speaker 7 (44:49):
Three day three he created dry land and oceans, and
then he created the trees with bearing fruit and grasses.
Now listen to this, follow me, follow me. He told
the trees, you guys, cannot mix the mango. Three does
not tango with the avocado. Right, No grafting, no mixing,
(45:11):
no blending.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Very woke.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
No, he wants it.
Speaker 7 (45:18):
He wants a mango to be a pure mango and
an avocado.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
To be a pure avocado. We don't want the mango avocado.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Okay, all right, man came.
Speaker 7 (45:27):
And came and they started me anyways, the trees were
told not to mix the grasses.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
He didn't say anything to oh oh, creator didn't tell him.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Are you serious?
Speaker 1 (45:39):
And the grasses are left with this what are we
supposed to do? Right?
Speaker 7 (45:47):
And so they made this kind of a fiori argument,
this kind of logical syllogism argument. They say, well, if trees,
which are normally separate, they don't really get grown close
to each other. And they were told not to mix,
so us grasses, which were all over the place all
the more so we shouldn't mix.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Okay. So they made this syllogism and conclusion. They had a.
Speaker 7 (46:15):
Little board meeting, right, they had a call in favor, okay,
and they all agreed we're not gonna mix.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
So Hasen says, oh my gosh, you guys came up
with that all by yourself. Okay. And because you guys
came up with that all by yourself, I am now
going to give you the gift of healing.
Speaker 7 (46:37):
There's much more in a way to explain it, but
I'm gonna explain it, right, just enough for them.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
So therefore God bestowed upon all the grass as and
herbs the gift of healing.
Speaker 7 (46:49):
Now, the interesting thing is, there's this one grass that
got a bad wrap.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Poor little cannabis. The stone stone that was.
Speaker 7 (47:01):
Cast away by the builders becomes the cornerstone.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
That's the rule.
Speaker 7 (47:06):
The grass that was cast away by the builders becomes
the cornerstone.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
So things that things were.
Speaker 7 (47:14):
Nobody would consider that cannabis would have medicinal purposes. But
it has I think greater medicinal purposes than ever.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Right, So that's why it's such a tragedy that it's
trapped in Schedule one because it's.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Getting its way, it's finding its way here.
Speaker 7 (47:30):
Listen, who would ever have thought thirty years ago that
this would such a thing would occur when California became legal,
it was like a huge like what who would ever think?
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Right? It had a bad rap, right, Anslinger?
Speaker 7 (47:45):
Right?
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Was it? J Paul Getty? Who has it? Forgot? Who
was rat Hurst? William Randolph Hearst.
Speaker 7 (47:52):
They gave it a bad rap, right, But you know,
the stone that was cast away by the builders becomes
the cornerstone. So so those who will hang on with heart,
with lave like the Macabees did. They had to fight
against the Greeks were much more greater, much more numerous.
If you want to talk about hanakah, okay, they had
to have to have your heart has to be in it.
(48:13):
You have to be coming with a mission of you know,
it helps a lot of people. And that's why I
got into the kosher to make it kosher. A lot
of people get helped. It helps a lot of people.
I get calls emails all the time. Where can I
find it? Where I'm here? Where can I get it?
So it's it's it's a mitzvah. If it's a mitzvah
(48:36):
and you're certain and there's a higher reason, it gives
us the strength to go on. Right seth Alan, you
should be blessed to the strength to continue and be
and God will grant you that strength and you'll continue
to be successful to hold on. There were two places
in Massachusetts which I was giving Kosher certification to close down.
(48:59):
They couldn't hold it, like you said, closing their doors.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Rabbi, you talked about the medicinal mitzvah. Do you think
cannabists can open up spiritual pathways? You know, you talk
about the light from above, lighte from below, and then
within in the I.
Speaker 7 (49:18):
Have a question, and I don't I don't have an
answer for you, but I have a question. All Rabbis
are supposed to answer questions with questions.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Right, yes, right?
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Isn't that the rule?
Speaker 2 (49:28):
It's Socratic method. Yes.
Speaker 7 (49:31):
Well, you know, if it has medicinal why would I
Shem make it?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Why would God make it psychoactive?
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Ah?
Speaker 7 (49:41):
You know, if it has to have a medicine and
it's going to relieve pain or whatever, aches or whatever
help people sleep, why does that have to happen? So,
you know, I think in the back of my head
and I'm just thinking out loud. You know, we have
to start the world has to start thinking differently, and
(50:02):
sometimes people are so stuck in their patterns of thinking,
which goes into my book.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
My book has to do with how our thoughts create angels.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Oh, congratulations, congratulations.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
And it's called it's called The Jewish Guide to Manifesting.
That's the name of the book, Jewish Guide to Manifesting. Right, So,
our patterns of thinking sometimes need to shift, wouldn't you agree,
Sometimes if you're stuck in a problem, you need to
see it from a different angle, once you see it
from a different perception.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
That's the whole point of the title of this show.
It used to be on the war on drugs. Just
say no and oh and I'm trying to say just
say no. Know. There's a doctor Mentesh Gurn. He's in
Robin Carhart Harris's lab at U see San Francisco. He
was on episode three and he was there studying the
(50:54):
effects of psilocybin and cannabinoids on the brain. And I'm
by plasticity and talking about, you know, looking into how
to break these habitual patterns that do become ironically hardwired
for some survival reason at some point, but get stuck
(51:16):
because the brain wants us to have predictability. They want
to they want to make it easy for us and
go on autopilot, but we get caught in these loops.
So I'm so excited about your book. That's uh, that's
that's it. I think that would solve many, many, many
of the problems.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
The world is in that direction anyways. Everybody's shifting, and
I think people are looking for meaning or meaning these days.
Speaker 7 (51:43):
So if it helps to give you for a person
who needs it to.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Shift to a higher level of thinking for meaning. So
then you know, go for it.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Yeah, And I'd like to just bring in a segment
we have called the nip It in the Bud where
we do myth busting. And I was gonna ask Seth
this one true serve fiction. Can you make a bong
out of snow?
Speaker 4 (52:18):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (52:19):
You can, true, true, matter of fact. He did it
last week.
Speaker 9 (52:27):
We did that when we were building the facility back
way way back, you know what I mean, but before
we were licensed, you know, we had there was a
lot of snow and we and my partner Chris and
I did that and took a funny picture of it,
so we you definitely absolutely can do that.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
How much snow? How much snow do you need? And
walk me through this. I've never smoked from a bong.
I've never smoked, but good.
Speaker 4 (52:50):
We just made you know, it was like making the
snow Man.
Speaker 9 (52:53):
But you know what, we just had to make sure
there was a channel that came down and up and
you know, you didn't need any water in it chilled
the smoke.
Speaker 4 (53:00):
Nice, chill the smoke nice for you. So yes you can.
That's funny. Yeah, wow, I lightening. We have a passion
for cannabis. We you know, we've enjoyed the process.
Speaker 9 (53:11):
As hard as it's been, we've been, we've enjoyed every
part of the process from you know, from building the
team to building the facility to operating it.
Speaker 4 (53:19):
Wow, surely you.
Speaker 9 (53:20):
Just try to, you know, have that culture at two
five three where you know, you know, all the all
the tough stuff we keep, we keep behind the scenes,
so you know, you know, we really have a nice
culture there.
Speaker 4 (53:32):
So people, you know, people enjoy things like that.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
So in closing, did anyone come up with the punchline
to what did you hear about the Broadway producer, the
rabbi and the former that walked into a bar or
walked into a dispensary? Anyone got a punchline?
Speaker 6 (53:54):
Sorry, Maria. In all candor, I did win the British
equivalent of which for Best New Comedy a number of
years ago. I still can't come up with an answer
that's funny for this one.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
I have a few ideas, unless Seth, do you have one?
Speaker 4 (54:10):
No, that that's not really that's not my forte.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
No, all right, I think the Broadway producer said to
the dispensary, butd tender, do you have something that's gonna
make me feel like I'm in a chorus loan, I'm
twenty years old, taking my I can kick this high
and the bud tenders, Well, let me think about it,
(54:33):
Farmer says, do you have anything that's gonna put me
in the relaxed state I am when I'm in my
cornfield and the wind is blowing and the breezes and
I want to feel that way and the buttender's shore.
We could hook you up there. And then the Rabbi says,
I'm just looking to get a little higher. Alright, I
(54:57):
don't know that's the best could do.
Speaker 4 (55:03):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Thank you for spending your time with us today on
just saying now. This has been an enlightening conversation touching
on the challenges, opportunities, and evolving cultural connections surrounding the
cannabis industry. Like to recap some key takeaways from today's discussion. First,
we explored the significant barriers that federal illegality presents to
(55:29):
cannabis entrepreneurs and operators who are trying to function legally
in this legally gray space, including limited access to banking
and the burdens of HUX provisions like two ade as
Alan highlighted these challenges demand creativity, resilience, and willingness to
(55:51):
take on risk that other industries don't face yet, as
we discuss, for those who persevere, there is the potential
to shape and industry that is still in its infancy
and create lasting change. We also dove into the operational
challenges of owning a vertically integrated dispensary and sustainable farming.
(56:15):
Thanks to SETS Insights, we learned that cannabis is about
more than consumption. It's about storytelling, community and creating safe
and responsible products that reflect care and intention. Sets artisanal
approach mirrors the sophistication of fine lines and spirits, illustrating
(56:38):
that cannabis extends beyond medicinal use and could hold a
place in both everyday life and even special celebrations. Rabbi
Coen brought us a unique perspective on Kosher certified cannabis,
explaining its importance for inclusivity and its role in broadening
the accessibility of cannabis products beyond faith based communities. Kosher
(57:02):
certification represents a gold standard for cleanliness, quality and integrity,
and cultivation and production. We talked about the connection to
Hanika traditions and the question of whether cannabis can facilitate
deeper spiritual pathways who was both fascinating and thought provoking.
(57:23):
As we look forward at the future of cannabis, it's
clear that this industry stands at crossroads. Whether it's crafting
thoughtful regulations, advocating for normalization and legalization, or simply changing
the way people think about cannabis. The decisions we make now,
(57:45):
they're going to have ripple effects for generations. To our listeners, remember,
cannabis is not just a product. It's a movement, guys,
a culture, and from many a lifeline. The stories we
share today are proof of the diverse voices working tirelessly
(58:10):
to navigate this perplex industry and ensure it thrives responsibly. Finally,
a heartfelt thank you to our guests, Alan Shore for
your entrepreneurial wisdom, Seth Rutherford for your passion for sustainable
agriculture and a responsible Premium Award winning dispensary. Rabbi Yakov
(58:37):
Cohen for your inspiring perspective on inclusivity and tradition, especially
as the story of Hanukkah inspires in us all perseverance
in the face of adversity. Thank you for tuning in
to Just Say No on KCA Radio ten fifty am
one oh six point five FM. Let's continue to rethink
(59:00):
its together until next time. I'm your host, Maria Calabres.
Stay curious, stay informed, stay festive, and just say no
with a K and a W K and ow Happy Holidays,
everybody happy, and say stay it, Let it glow. Just
(59:20):
Say No is a green bee Life presentation airing live
weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm Pacific
on KCA Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes are
on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Speaker, and most third
(59:41):
party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out on GBLTV,
on greenbee Life YouTube, and Rumble. To follow us our Instagram,
at Facebook is at just Say No Radio. To apply
to be a guest on the show or for sponsorship
(01:00:04):
and advertising opportunities, go to greenbelife dot com.
Working Families, Teamsters nineteen thirty two dot Org.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello again and welcome to Just Say No, where we
spotlight the innovators behind cannabis's news products and the groundbreaking
ideas driving the legal cannabis movement with some of the
smartest minds in the industry. Thank you for tuning in.
I'm your host Maria Calabrese on KCAA Radio ten fifty
(00:29):
Am one oh six point five FM. I'm honor. I'm
privileged to be joined today by an incredible panel of
voices that are as lively as they are diverse. Alan
Shore is an entrepreneur, cannabis investor, and multiple Tony Award
winning Broadway producer who brings his expertise from a variety
(00:52):
of industries to the cannabis space. Zeth Rutherford is the
founder of Waterworks, providing a sustainable water management system to
the island of Nantucket, and an owner operator of an
award winning dispensary in Massachusetts. Seth joins us with roots
in agriculture since childhood, and Rabbi Yakov Cohen. Rabbi Cohen
(01:17):
is the founder of Whole Kosher Services and the president
of Returning Light, a nonprofit dedicated to the study of
Torah and Kabbalah. He will share insights into the intersection
of faith, tradition, and kosher certified cannabis. Together, we'll dive
into some of the most pressing topics shaping the cannabis landscape,
(01:40):
included what it really takes to start a cannabis business
given the threats and challenges of operating legally in a
federally illegal space green rush or bust, and most importantly,
in the spirit of the holiday season, we'll explore lessons
and perseverance learned from the story of Hanukkah and the
(02:01):
concept of kosher cannabis and what it means to be
kosher certified cannabis. So get cozy, but not to cozy
if you're driving, and get ready to find out what
happens when a Broadway producer, a rabbi, and a farmer
walk into a dispensary. Because the rules and regulations we
establish now at the crossroads of federal legalization will shape
(02:25):
the future of cannabis for generations to come. So let's
dig in and explore just what's at stake.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars, and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Each and every year.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
I can see so much, Yon moroses, Yon monases.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I'm a better guy who has only.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Begon, taking me a while to get it, had to
live and.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Cry to appreciate Lafe and.
Speaker 5 (03:28):
What you give his word, when you're holding you, when
you hold me so close, someone better and under your skin.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Welcome everyone, today's show. I'm looking forward to exploring today's
topics through the lens of innovation, resilience, and Honikah. In Hebrew,
Honekkah means dedication, and the holiday celebrates the rededication of
the Temple in Jerusalem in the second century BC, after
a small but determined and blessed group of Jewish fighters
(04:00):
liberated it from occupying forces. So what does this have
to do with cannabis, you're probably wondering. Well, despite its
legalization in most states, cannabis remains federally classified as a
Schedule one drug, a designation the falsely, and I might add,
recklessly equates it with dangerous substances like LSD or heroin,
(04:23):
to have no medical value and a high potential for abuse. Yeah,
this contradiction creates unique challenges for the plant entrepreneurs, consumers,
and advocates forcing their very existence. They're very survival against
significant odds that affect us. All. I've asked our panel
(04:47):
to join us today. I wanted to start with Alan Shore,
as an entrepreneur in the space, to give us an
overview of the challenges of starting a cannabis business in
today's legal landscape. Well, Alan, so good to see you again.
Speaker 6 (05:04):
Alan, It's nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Also, thank you, thank you for joining us. You're going
to have great insights. But before diving in, I like
you to tell our listeners a little bit about your
entrepreneurial background in your own words.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
I didn't realized I was an entrepreneur until somebody told
me I was. So. I was always trying to do
things differently, and from the time that I really went
to left college, you know, graduated, until to the rest
of my life, I always thought there are better ways
(05:37):
to do things, and the people that I was working
for and doing other things, I thought, well, I'll try
it my way. And then somebody said, well, you're really
an entrepreneur, and I said, okay, Well if that's what
you want to call me. So my background was in
music theater and something that has nothing to do with
music in theater, which is accounting and finance. But believe
(06:00):
it or not, they do go together. And as a
result of that, what I've been able to do is
employ my skills from an accounting and from a financial
background to help create different companies in the financial services
world now the cannabis world. And believe it or not,
(06:21):
the accounting and financial skills that I've acquired over the
years has really helped me in being a producer in
the theater world because it's really about numbers, and part
of that is making sure that you stay with the budget,
that the budget's correct and everything has done the right way.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
If you've never had the pleasure of being in Woody
Allen's office in New York, over his desk, he has
a sign that says it show business right, not show show,
So you are spot on. How do you connect these
skills to this on a bus industry the.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
Same way you would connect the skills to any industry.
Being in the financial services world is one of the
most highly regulated, least I thought highly regulated industries in
the world. You've got multiple agencies. Governmental non governmental agencies
are always looking over your shoulder. You've got all kinds
of compliance issues that you have to adhere to. So
(07:25):
the cannabis business is similar the fact that it's regulated.
You've got compliance issues, You've got the same financial concerns
of any other business. So the skill set that a person,
any person might have in running or starting or managing
a business, can be employed and can be an entrepreneur
(07:46):
in any kind of business, including the cannabis business. And
without that skill set, it's going to be very challenging
for anyone to be successful really in any business. And
part of that, and the most important part of that,
which is true again for any kind of business, is
surrounding yourself with people that are better than you, that
(08:08):
know more than you, and they're specific whatever it is
that they do, whether it's growing or in the cannabis
business or whoslesale, whatever it happens to be, and letting
them take the ball, let them run with it. If
they make a mistake, they make a mistake, but certainly
let them do the things that they do best and
stay out of their way so that everybody stays in
(08:29):
their own lane. And if you allow that to happen.
The chance of success are greater than if you try
to step into somebody else's position or somebody else's lane.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, before I dive deep in with you into advice
for starting a cannabis business, speaking of surrounding yourself with
people smarter than you, I am surrounded by it's an
embarrassment of riches. So I just want to bring in
now the rabbi to tell a little bit about his
(09:04):
background in his own words, and what he has to
do with cannabis, and then we'll bring seven and then
we'll dive into the interview with my first question to Alan, Rabbi, welcome,
great to be here, very special to have you here
because I understand you were in Israel. Yes, I'd love
(09:26):
to have you tell us a little bit about yourself
and your own words.
Speaker 7 (09:30):
Okay, quickly, you know, I was not always like many
people were, not a rabbi before the rebbie. I wasn't
raised religious. I was raised very secular. I didn't become
religious until I went to Israel when I was nineteen
years old, and then I was in a rabbinical school
and spent nineteen years there and then got married, raised
(09:52):
a family, started a family and then moved to Texas,
so and that's when I got involved in being involved
in kosher food and kosher services, and of course it
branched out. And the quick background story is I had
a son who was diagnosed as having brain cancer. He
(10:17):
did pass away after a year and a half, but
during that time he when he had a relapse, we
were introduced into cannabis. I had already been doing kosher
food production and giving kosher certification to various other industries,
but here was the cannabis industry.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
My son was.
Speaker 7 (10:40):
I was trying to give him cannabis in terms of
all of the research that was done. And so my
father and some friends says, why don't you go and
work and see about making cannabis kosher because this and
it has such medicinal properties. People need it. People got
to be looking for it, and I'll be much more
(11:00):
comfortable if it's kosher. So that's when I reached out
to was what we spoke Tracy Ryan of Cana Kids
other places in California. I think that's where it started
first and started to make very many products kosher, offering
kosher services until I and then of course I was
(11:21):
introduced to two five three Organic on the on the
East coast. Yeah, that was great man. Yeah, so you know,
I was really excited to go there and help them
out in terms of getting their kosher certification. It was
a really a lot of fun. It's such an awesome dispensary,
(11:42):
a great place to visit, to drive there, it's just amazing.
So and I always enjoy going and making my usual
routine kosher visits.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Oh that's amazing, amazing. My my dulences for your son,
and my hats off to you for when western medicine
doesn't have a solution for going beyond. I can't even
imagine as a parent, first of all, going through something
(12:16):
like that, Second of all, having to make the decision
to try cannabis and to have gotten to that point
to have to do that.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And it was very experimental, like nobody knew really knew
what was going on.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Then, right, you mentioned canna kids, Josh and Tracy Ryan.
They're just an amazing, amazing couple, And of course they're
little girl Sophie who was afflicted with a brain tumor,
and you know, back then, I mean what a mom
will do for their child. Tracy actually was able to
(12:54):
get Cedar Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles to give her
a piece of her two year old's brain tissue. Yeah,
and she transported it herself and in iglu cooler on
a plane to Israel. Could you just tell us quickly
before we bring in the next smart one here smarter
than all of us, Seth, just tell us a little
(13:16):
bit about the difference in how Israel approaches medical Malwana
and Malawana. In the United States.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
It is stricter, it's harder to get a prescription, it's
only medicinal and have a very tight knit on the
production where it flows and things like that. You know,
it's not so easy you could just walk into a dispensary.
It's it's you know, So there are much a few
more hoops to go through in order to get the medicine.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yes, the hoops aside, it is medically available and has
been for decades. So what they have on the United
States and the rest of the world is a jump
on the rece search in fact it Yeah, so they
haven't had that obstacle or burden. So they were.
Speaker 7 (14:07):
When we were in Texas with our son Alisha, we
were debating whether to go to California or Israel, because
Israel had the research, but we wouldn't be able to
access it if we Oh, so we went.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
We opted to go to California.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yes, So it's you know, legalization. It impacts so many
people from so many different walks of life in so
many different ways.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
We're all, we're all we're trying to crawl out of
the stigma.
Speaker 7 (14:36):
You know, we're trying to help people crawl out of
the stigma, which is really what I'm about, you know,
because to make it available and offer it to be kosher,
you know, medicinal wise. You know, still a lot of
people in my circles are still very much against it,
even though it's inedible, even though it's you know, medicinal.
(14:57):
They'll let it, but usually buy and large, you know,
they still have that stigma there.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
We've got amount and to climb. But I'm glad we're
doing it.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
The Maccabees are about right.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
That's right, and I'm glad against the big Fed that's right.
Speaker 6 (15:19):
South. I have I have a question for.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
The rabbi Okay, sorry Seth oh my goodness, guy, Alan.
Speaker 6 (15:25):
When Moses went up to Mount Sinai in the Burning Bush,
what was that bush made of and where he saw.
Speaker 8 (15:32):
Oh my goodness, when the god Alaska, oh.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
A Alan, when the gods spoke, there was smoke. So
absolutely so set Set. You have your roots is having
been working on a farm since the age of eleven
years old. Somehow the labor laws that was legal. But
(16:03):
all right, don't get me started. So and you have
this background and knowledge and sustainable agriculture. You're the founder
of water Works, having come up with a water management
system to serve as islands like the island of Nantucket.
And you are a co owner and operator of one
(16:27):
of Massachusetts's most premier award winning pharmacies, two five to
three pharmacy. That's pharmacy with an F. So tell us
a little bit about yourself and two five to three pharmacy.
And Allen, I want you taking notes because we're going
to do cannabis the musical.
Speaker 6 (16:45):
Okay, well, we actually did something like that called Flight
over Sunset a few years ago. That just didn't work,
but it was it wasn't cannabis, it was other drugs.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
All right.
Speaker 9 (17:02):
Well, Maria, to start up, start off by thank you
for having me. I very much appreciate your time and
being able to join. I'm a Massachusetts resident born and
raised in Western Mass and Western mass you know, as
you as you stated, is really all about agriculture here.
I live here right here in Hadley and Hadley, mass
(17:23):
is you know, has has I think the second best
top soil in the world behind San Joaquin Valley in California.
And I ended up marrying into a farming family as well,
farming anything from tobacco to asparagus to corn. And you know,
they do have some cattle kicking around for all the
excess you know, vegetables that they don't sell.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
And so when I was.
Speaker 9 (17:44):
Twenty one, I had an opportunity to move down to
Nantucket with my partner.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
So, you know, Joe and I moved down to Nantucket
and started water works. And we're very.
Speaker 9 (17:54):
Fortunate to move to a place like Nantucket and have
an end and you know, work for some probably you know,
some of the the wealthiest people in the world that
really care about their landscapes and care about their homes.
And really gave myself an education there, just you know, learning,
you know, learning all the different aspects of you know,
building sustainable landscapes. I was, I was, I was elected
(18:15):
to what was called the Article sixty eight board. What
the Article sixty eight board was. We were trying to
find a way to limit the nitrogen and phosphorus use
on Nantucket so that we would not.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
Pollute our estuaries.
Speaker 9 (18:25):
And we and through that board, we we developed a
b MP which is the best management practice and currently
I believe it still is the strictest in the state
on nitrogen use. And we lived with the nitrogen use
on Nantucket to three pounds per thousand and so that
we really try to educate, you know, landscapers and the
tradesmen and women, you know, how to properly apply fertilizers
(18:48):
so that you are not you you're you're keeping a
healthy landscape, but you're not damaging you know, the environment
around you.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
And you know, cannabis was always you know, I always
used it.
Speaker 9 (18:59):
I'm a very energetic individual and I always use cannabis
as a way to calm down, in a way to
just melow myself out. And I've always had a real
passion for it. And from there, you know, in two
thousand and eight came around, we really had a passion
to get into it. You know, we're builders, we're in
the landscape trade. We understand you know, plant water maintenance,
(19:22):
and we ended up you know, finding very very fortunate
enough to find Out and Marsha as partners. And I
think that's one of the really things that separates two
five three is the partnership that we were able to
bring together because we were able to bring professionals from
all different you know, walks of life, lawyers, financial people,
(19:42):
construction people, landscape people, and really kind of bring everyone
together to run a very complex industry that doesn't have data,
you know.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
To look up and to see what to do.
Speaker 9 (19:54):
It's really something that you know, you have to really
make good decisions and see them through and pivot on
a dime if the decisions that you made seem to
be going in the wrong direction. And so, you know,
we ended up partnering Chris and I partnered with Alan
and Marsha and we built their own facility.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
We operate our own facility.
Speaker 9 (20:14):
So, you know, a very unique company, and we really
worry about quality. Worry about bringing a quality product to
the table for customers, something that a customer could find
relief in whatever they're looking for.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Well, I'm you're a perfect spot when to segue from quality.
We're twenty minutes into the show, and in California it
is for twenty So every show at four twenty, we
have a segment called quick Hits. So We're going to
get a quick hit where I'm going to ask the
(20:48):
Rabbi to drop a knowledge bomb for us. And the
quick hit that I'm going to ask him is, Rabbi,
what is kosher and and how does it become certified?
Speaker 7 (21:03):
So you know, talk about what kosher is. First of all,
you have to understand kosher does not mean blessed.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
By the Rabbi.
Speaker 7 (21:11):
Okay, there's a serious laws the criteria that comes from
the Five Books of Moses, covering an entire spectrum of
different foods, everything from meat to dairy, fish, fowl, bugs,
and grapes. So all of these different levels of food
or areas of food have different criteria that meets kosher standards.
(21:33):
Like your animal needs two signs to be a kosher animal, right, alan,
you know which two signs those are.
Speaker 6 (21:41):
It has to its cud and it has to have
to its cud and have a clooned hoof.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, dinging ning thing. We should mass ad for the
knowledgebar Rabbi.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Of the day.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
Okay, it came from a very religious home and became
secular later.
Speaker 7 (22:03):
So yeah, so that's an animal has to have those signs.
And even if it has those signs and it's not
properly ritually slaughtered, it's not kosher. So if if cow
was not killed in the ritual slaughterway, even though it's
a kosher animal. So anything of that cow or any
derivative of that which gets into cannabis because of a gelatin.
(22:28):
For the most of the industry uses gelatin either from
a pig or cow, that not kosher. That to make
their gummies. Okay, of course many are making from pectin.
That's a different story. Well let's say dairy, we don't
mix milk and meat. You know, we have an issue
of bugs. Now, just to zero win on cannabis, the
(22:50):
plant itself, like any other plant or vegetable, has no
problems with being kosher, like an apple or a banana.
The only issues with certain vegetables or fruits is a
predominance of insects because we're not allowed to eat a bug.
According to the Torah, we break six five or five commandments.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
If we eat a bug. Okay, and if you know
there's bugs in there, you gotta wash it and check
it before you eat it.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Were a friend of green bee.
Speaker 7 (23:22):
Yeah, green bee. I was wondering was it a bee
that's green or the okay? So the plants themselves. I
did go to Mendocina. We gave a Kosher certificate to
a farm there. I did check there and they have
these very little insects called thrips in the buds. Talk
(23:44):
about the flower tops. So I asked a very big
rabbi about it, and he says, well, because most of
the people are burning it because they're smoking it, so
the bugs are getting burned.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
So there's no problem of the.
Speaker 7 (23:58):
Bugs if they're eating it late in a salad which
some people I've been prescribed in California.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Raw yes, raw form.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
So then you have an issue.
Speaker 7 (24:08):
It has to be cleaned of bugs and don't even
know if it can be because of the stickiness of it.
So therefore, predominantly mostly so the flower tops really don't
really need a Kosher certification, but it helps because of marketing.
Because don't forget, kosher is not just for religious Jews.
(24:28):
Kosher Kosher could extend to Muslims, vegetarians, vagans, and health
conscientious people looking for that there's a third set of
eyes looking on this product to guarantee that it's safe.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (24:44):
So that's why people in a grocery store, sixty percent
of the things in the grocery store are having a
Kosher symbol on it. Sixty percent of the items in
any grocery store now in the United States, and people
will always choose an item with a Kosher symbol over
item without.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
A kocher sold because they know there was another pair
of eyes.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
It's a marketing, it's a gold standard. It's a gold standard, correct.
Speaker 7 (25:08):
So then yes, absolutely, So then when you now moving
on past the bug So then when you process the
bugs into oil, so then you get into solvents and
things that come in contact with the plant. So you
have to make sure those solvents are coming from kosher sources.
The biggest solvent that's used most likely today is.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Is ethanol. Now ethanol, everybody will instantly think it's it's corn,
it's weed.
Speaker 7 (25:36):
It's not necessarily. There are ethanols that are made from
grapes which present a kosher issue. Because we have a
very strict rule about our grapes, even grape juice. It
has to be squeezed from an observant jew until it's bottled.
For sure, wine, because we use it in rituals all
the time, the rabbis made very strict decrees that it
(25:57):
has to be a Jewish wine. So ethanol could be
made from grapes. Ethanol could also be made from whey,
which is a cheese, which is also a big, huge
kosher issue. So we have to make sure that the
ethanol or any solvents that are used in order to
turn to make the oils have to come from kosher sources.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
And then when you go.
Speaker 7 (26:17):
Onto that, let's say when you're making your intivals, like
any other kosher material, all the materials have to be kosher.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
The chocolate, the sugar.
Speaker 7 (26:26):
The flavorings, the gummies, the pectin, all of those items
have to meet certain certain specific kosher criteria in order
to be kosher okay. So and then there's a course
to maintain the equipment. So that's the kosher industry in
a nutshell.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Oh, it's fascinating. And what's really fascinating is I'm going
to just start a movement that everyone in Congress, everyone
and all the decision makers have to get bar mitz
foot because you guys were able to work this out
with Jewish law, but America I don't know. So thank you,
(27:07):
my goodness, say it can, there it can. There's always
a solution, which brings me to the cannabis. Running a
cannabis business Alan. The cannabis industry is estimated to employ
over a half a million people right. It includes approximately
twelve thousand licensed retail locations. It's estimated to earn thirty
(27:32):
billion dollars a year, more than the Baseball League, National
Football League, and NBA combined. Yeah, it remains classified as
a Schedule one substance, presenting passive challenges that, like you said,
startups and other industries aren't faced with. So my question
(27:55):
to you is, given the current legal landscape and the
challenges that they present to running cannabis business, who is
making all the money? Is anybody making any money? And
what inspired you to enter this space?
Speaker 6 (28:12):
All right? So the first question is really easy to answer.
Who's making all the money? The regular the state for life.
With the tax that the Feds, they're making all the
money because they're they're taxing cannabis companies on income that
they don't really have, and the tax that cannabis companies
(28:36):
have to pay is different than any other industry in
the United States. So that's that's So that's the easy
answer to your question. What's what inspired the question? Was
what inspired me to do this? Yes, well, not understanding
what the federal regulators were going to taxes on and
(28:59):
the audience. The idea that with any business, if you
can run it efficiently and you you can mitigate the
tax issues that you can, and you have good partners
and you know what you're doing, then you can you
can make it work despite the tax burden. So that
that's really what it was. Because I had no clue,
(29:21):
I mean, not a sintilla of an idea of cannabis
up until the time I met Seth and Chris.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Nothing, none of us did. I I can't tell you
how many people in the state of California didn't vote
for League Station or say they wish they hadn't.
Speaker 6 (29:39):
Yeah. So it's you know, it's a business just like
show business, or the or the legal business, or the
broad you know, it's the entertainment business in general, and
it all has its quirks, but the cannabis. Cannabis business
is probably at least in Massachusetts, the most regulated industry
in the entire state with a high burden of taxation.
(30:02):
And that's just not it's not basically not fair.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
And I thought California was higher.
Speaker 6 (30:10):
I don't I don't think so. I think we're talking
about federal taxes and federal state federal.
Speaker 7 (30:17):
Wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute, Federal
Schedule one.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Correct, Yet they're right able to tax it. Excuse me,
isn't it considered to be federally what did what? What? Group?
Group one or level one?
Speaker 6 (30:33):
Yeah? Right, yeah, so it doesn't allow you to take
deductions for in the ordinary course of business, without getting
too technical, Intersection one sixty two ordinary business expenses that
every other business is able to take, accelerated appreciation and
other things that businesses are entitled to, and therefore you're
(30:55):
paying tax on literally phantom income. And that's just yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Two eighty originated in nineteen eighty one during the Reagan administration.
I'll tell you, Rabbi and Seth, I know Alan, you
know this. I'm not sure if you do a set
but it came about when a convicted cocaine trafficker argued
in court that he should be allowed to deduct his
legitimate business expenses, the zip ties for his cocaine trafficking, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera,
(31:26):
And despite his business being illegal, he was able to
deduct business expenses. So two eighty eight came in response
to that, Congress established the rule which prohibits anyone involved
in trafficking controlled substances from deducting their business expenses. And
(31:49):
as long as cannabis is on that list of controlled substances,
it can't deduct any of its expenses such as becoming certified, kosher,
storage and transportation, banking, franchise fees, packaging, marketing, none of
it is tax deduct dimetric bills. There you go, So
(32:10):
I could speak for I think a legal cannabis operator
could face a federal tax rate of around seventy percent
in addition to the state and local taxes. And on
top of this, in Los Angeles there's a five percent
excise tax.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
So need the analogy there.
Speaker 9 (32:30):
You know, if you're running a retail store, and if
you did a million dollars a year in business, and
a half a million dollars was the product that that
retail store bought to resell, that retail store would pay
tax on a half a million dollars. The only thing
you would be able to duct is the product you bought,
so you would you would pay tax on your labor.
You're parking, you know, your your snow plowing, anything above
(32:53):
and beyond. And so you know, in the early days
when the margins were high, and I'm talking the early
days of Massachusetts when we opened in nineteen margins were high.
There wasn't a lot of retail stores. We were able
to pull pull profits. As this industry continues to condense
and get saturated, it's really become catastrophic for companies.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
And you know, they're just not able to.
Speaker 9 (33:16):
Survive on margins because you need exponential margins to continue
to pay The federal government.
Speaker 6 (33:23):
Told you he was smart.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Is it still getting saturated in the market in your opinion?
Speaker 9 (33:29):
Well, I think, you know, I mean, I mean the
answer to that is I stutter a little bit. I
think we're hopefully on the verge of coming the other way.
You know, we we were down to like four dollars
and fifty cents a gram on the retail side. And
when we get down to four dollars a gram.
Speaker 4 (33:47):
Producers can't produce it for two dollars a gram and
stay live.
Speaker 9 (33:50):
And so when I'm talking to retail at four fifty,
so when the retail's four and these retail stores are keystoning,
we're very close to the bottom. If we're not there
that and just in the last month we've seen some
very big operators close their doors in Massachusetts, and I
think that that's going to continue. And so, you know,
to get back to you know what Almon was saying
(34:12):
about cannabis. You know how how it's how it's very unique,
can't you know? Instead of you know a lot of
businesses where you're you're looking to increase revenues. In cannabis,
you're looking to reduce costs. You run that business on
cost base and you don't take risks of costs are
associated due to the taxes because those costs turn into
(34:33):
income to you and you have to pay more phantom income.
And so it's a very difficult business. So it's really
a lean and mean business model to stay alive and debthly.
Like I say, you know, people ask, well, how do
you survive in cannabis? And it's facetious, right, but it's like, well,
don't write a check because every check you write his
income to you.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Even though you're giving it to someone else.
Speaker 9 (34:56):
Okay, so it's you know, it's really you know, it's
kind of the you know, it says you really have
to be very cognitive of how you operate. And you know,
at two five three, we've always taken the approach where
we don't have a huge wholesale department and we don't
kind of have a ton of marketing because a lot
of companies get themselves in trouble where they they spend
(35:17):
more to make less, and you really have to watch
your bottom lines and be conservative and concentrate on yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
You should have a blessing. You should have a blessing
and continued blessing for continued success and growth.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Well Alan and Seth, and even with the rabbis blessing,
you gave the best advice. You have to go low
and slow. You have to be leaning mean. You have
to be able to survive legalization. And it's it's really
a conundrum because you don't have access to financing that
(35:54):
other startups have. Many financial institutions aren't going to want
to touch it if government's deeming it illegal Aria.
Speaker 6 (36:03):
I'll give you an example of how bad it is.
I had an American Airlines advandaged City Bank card, and
I got about a year and a half ago, I
got a notice of them saying we've canceled your card
and I said why, and they said, because you own
an interest in a cannabis company and it's federally illegal.
(36:26):
I said, oh. At the same time, they're also City
Bank banks the State of New York's cannabis business. So
it's like, okay, well, why can you do one or
not the other. But that's how bad it's become at.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Times it is. And you know, necessity is the mother
of invention. So anyone who can survive this should be
on the cover of Fortune five hundred. I mean, it's
going to take minds as bright as this panel. And
it never hurts that with the Rabbi's blessing, But all
(36:58):
these entrepreneurs that jumped in believing, hey, this is going
to be the next Silicon Valley, it's the next big
giant among growth industries. Guys, it's a green revolution, not
a green rush. So if you're thinking of going into it,
be prepared to join the revolution.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
Well, I'll go one step further, Maria. Unless you're at
least in Massachusetts, unless you're vertically integrated, you cannot make money, period,
It's just impossible.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Can you explain to our listeners what a vertically integrated
license means?
Speaker 6 (37:36):
I can now because Seth taught me, So I'm gonna
let Seth my teacher, explain it better than me.
Speaker 9 (37:41):
So a vertically integrated facility, a vertically integrated means that
you do everything yourself, where you have your own cultivation, manufacturing,
and your retail outlets. And so it's really in Massachusetts,
it's really coming down to the verticals are able to
you know, whether this storm much easier than standalone standalone retailers.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
If they're at a very good location, they'll do okay.
Speaker 9 (38:07):
Standalone cultivators and standalone manufacturers, unfortunately, are taking a.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Beating right now.
Speaker 9 (38:14):
And it's really not fair because the wholesale rates, like
I explained before, are so bad at four dollars and
you know, at two dollars and twenty five cents if
you want to, if you want.
Speaker 4 (38:24):
To look at it that way, they're they're virtually not
making anything.
Speaker 9 (38:27):
And and a lot of these and a lot of
the small companies are mom and pop companies like two
five to three that have invested everything they've had to
get into this, and you know, there a lot of
them are tied to all sorts of leases and personal
guarantees and it's in you know, and in another really
unfortunate fact in the cannabis industry is there is no bankruptcy.
Speaker 4 (38:47):
You go, you go into receivership and you lose everything
you own.
Speaker 9 (38:50):
And and I think that's why a lot of people
hang on longer than one might think they would. But it's,
you know, it's it's it's definitely not all roses behind
the scenes. And the states, the state always and the
federal government always, you know, puts out how much sale,
how many, how much sales there are, but it really
(39:10):
doesn't equate to the to the profits behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Wow. And I'd like to just move on before turning
to the strength that we can glean from the story
of Hanukkah'd like to move on to how all of
these federal inaction, all the competing state regulatory down to
the local level, all the different federal agencies commission to
(39:35):
protect consumers, how all of this regulatory game of pipon
affects innovation and at the end of the day, the
consumer getting quality, let alone kosher certified cannabis. What's the
impact that this is going to have.
Speaker 9 (39:57):
Well, I think that's probably the same for any industry,
as you know, desperate times or take people take desperate measures,
and so I think that's really the unfortunate fact. And
you know, people need to stay alive, they need to eat,
they need to feed their family, and you know, when
when when when when When you get into a situation
like that, you know you you probably at times aren't
putting out the best products due to you know, do
(40:17):
those type of reasons.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
So it's very unfortunate.
Speaker 9 (40:20):
I think anytime you have an affluent business, you know,
you know, those type of things are much easier to accomplish,
and so, you know, it's it's it's it's a it's
it's unfortunate where where where we are right now, as
people are just trying to survive, you know, for two
five three, you know, we don't break any we don't
(40:40):
try to break any rules or break any rules, and
we really just try to stick with quality because as
hard as it is to continue to stay on that line,
eventually it will pay off. But it's just it's a
grind and you know, we're edging our name into a
piece of stone right now. And we're definitely not done yet.
But you know, if you do it right, and you
(41:00):
continue to do it right, there will be hite at
the other side.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
Nothing last forever.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yes, and if you have regulations that facilitate and energize
and promote your being able to do it right. Here's
a not so fun sacked Rabbi. You were talking about
Los Angeles. There are more weed stores in LA than Starbucks,
but more than seventy percent of the LA dispensaries are illegal.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Amazing, and there's no crackdown on them.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
No crackdown. That's with all the taxes that the legal
guys are paying. Their question is where is the enforcement.
Where are those tax dollars going? They're not going into
a forcement And it's I want to try to get
Mayor bass on and speak and just regulators to We're
(41:56):
trying to understand why the police I'm sorry, turn a
blind eye and not to mention it's it's it explains
why huge amount of the biggest legal cannabis companies valued
it up to three billion dollars recently filed for bankruptcy.
Speaker 7 (42:20):
Is there any movements out there as far as let's
say like fixing the regulations, deregulating or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
On the National Cannabis Industry Association, which could use support.
It is the National Cannabis Industry Association out of Washington, DC,
but they have a strong presence in Los Angeles. They're trying,
but they have their lobbyists. The multi state operators have
their own lobbyists and the industry is splintered. So finding
(42:56):
guys like Seth and Allen in yourself, I have an
interest in high quality premium up to the gold standard
of kosher cannabis.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Heart has to be in it your heart.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
The heart has to be That's right.
Speaker 4 (43:11):
It does.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Yeah, So speaking of heart, Rabbi, the story behind kosher
cannabis a lot of heart. I'm sorry it came to
you through such a tragedy with your son, but can
you talk to us about the story of cannabis and
(43:34):
maybe some lessons that people in the cannabis industry.
Speaker 7 (43:38):
One very you know, we had a very there's a
very big Hasidic rabbi lived about two hundred years ago.
He was two and fifty years ago. He's called the
Balishem Tove. He was like a really big innovator in
terms of Jewish practice. He completely just gave an in
depth way that how Judaism can be approached and everybody
(43:59):
can have a direct personal relationship with God. And he
had one of his followers was also a tremendous scholar,
and he said this about an interesting question that maybe
people that might have contemplated, was if you look in
the world and most of the medicines.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Of the world they come from herbs. Correct, would you.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Say, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Listen to this, Where does that come from? Or why
is that so? Okay? So here's a little story. On
the third day of creation.
Speaker 7 (44:36):
We know that God created the world in six days,
rested on the seven In the third day of creation,
God created.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
The trees and the plants and the grasses.
Speaker 7 (44:49):
Three day three he created dry land and oceans, and
then he created the trees with bearing fruit and grasses.
Now listen to this, follow me, follow me. He told
the trees, you guys, cannot mix the mango. Three does
not tango with the avocado. Right, No grafting, no mixing,
(45:11):
no blending.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Very woke.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
No, he wants it.
Speaker 7 (45:18):
He wants a mango to be a pure mango and
an avocado.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
To be a pure avocado. We don't want the mango avocado.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Okay, all right, man came.
Speaker 7 (45:27):
And came and they started me anyways, the trees were
told not to mix the grasses.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
He didn't say anything to oh oh, creator didn't tell him.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Are you serious?
Speaker 1 (45:39):
And the grasses are left with this what are we
supposed to do? Right?
Speaker 7 (45:47):
And so they made this kind of a fiori argument,
this kind of logical syllogism argument. They say, well, if trees,
which are normally separate, they don't really get grown close
to each other. And they were told not to mix,
so us grasses, which were all over the place all
the more so we shouldn't mix.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Okay. So they made this syllogism and conclusion. They had a.
Speaker 7 (46:15):
Little board meeting, right, they had a call in favor, okay,
and they all agreed we're not gonna mix.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
So Hasen says, oh my gosh, you guys came up
with that all by yourself. Okay. And because you guys
came up with that all by yourself, I am now
going to give you the gift of healing.
Speaker 7 (46:37):
There's much more in a way to explain it, but
I'm gonna explain it, right, just enough for them.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
So therefore God bestowed upon all the grass as and
herbs the gift of healing.
Speaker 7 (46:49):
Now, the interesting thing is, there's this one grass that
got a bad wrap.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Poor little cannabis. The stone stone that was.
Speaker 7 (47:01):
Cast away by the builders becomes the cornerstone.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
That's the rule.
Speaker 7 (47:06):
The grass that was cast away by the builders becomes
the cornerstone.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
So things that things were.
Speaker 7 (47:14):
Nobody would consider that cannabis would have medicinal purposes. But
it has I think greater medicinal purposes than ever.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Right, So that's why it's such a tragedy that it's
trapped in Schedule one because it's.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Getting its way, it's finding its way here.
Speaker 7 (47:30):
Listen, who would ever have thought thirty years ago that
this would such a thing would occur when California became legal,
it was like a huge like what who would ever think?
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Right? It had a bad rap, right, Anslinger?
Speaker 7 (47:45):
Right?
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Was it? J Paul Getty? Who has it? Forgot? Who
was rat Hurst? William Randolph Hearst.
Speaker 7 (47:52):
They gave it a bad rap, right, But you know,
the stone that was cast away by the builders becomes
the cornerstone. So so those who will hang on with heart,
with lave like the Macabees did. They had to fight
against the Greeks were much more greater, much more numerous.
If you want to talk about hanakah, okay, they had
to have to have your heart has to be in it.
(48:13):
You have to be coming with a mission of you know,
it helps a lot of people. And that's why I
got into the kosher to make it kosher. A lot
of people get helped. It helps a lot of people.
I get calls emails all the time. Where can I
find it? Where I'm here? Where can I get it?
So it's it's it's a mitzvah. If it's a mitzvah
(48:36):
and you're certain and there's a higher reason, it gives
us the strength to go on. Right seth Alan, you
should be blessed to the strength to continue and be
and God will grant you that strength and you'll continue
to be successful to hold on. There were two places
in Massachusetts which I was giving Kosher certification to close down.
(48:59):
They couldn't hold it, like you said, closing their doors.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Rabbi, you talked about the medicinal mitzvah. Do you think
cannabists can open up spiritual pathways? You know, you talk
about the light from above, lighte from below, and then
within in the I.
Speaker 7 (49:18):
Have a question, and I don't I don't have an
answer for you, but I have a question. All Rabbis
are supposed to answer questions with questions.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Right, yes, right?
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Isn't that the rule?
Speaker 2 (49:28):
It's Socratic method. Yes.
Speaker 7 (49:31):
Well, you know, if it has medicinal why would I
Shem make it?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Why would God make it psychoactive?
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Ah?
Speaker 7 (49:41):
You know, if it has to have a medicine and
it's going to relieve pain or whatever, aches or whatever
help people sleep, why does that have to happen? So,
you know, I think in the back of my head
and I'm just thinking out loud. You know, we have
to start the world has to start thinking differently, and
(50:02):
sometimes people are so stuck in their patterns of thinking,
which goes into my book.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
My book has to do with how our thoughts create angels.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Oh, congratulations, congratulations.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
And it's called it's called The Jewish Guide to Manifesting.
That's the name of the book, Jewish Guide to Manifesting. Right, So,
our patterns of thinking sometimes need to shift, wouldn't you agree,
Sometimes if you're stuck in a problem, you need to
see it from a different angle, once you see it
from a different perception.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
That's the whole point of the title of this show.
It used to be on the war on drugs. Just
say no and oh and I'm trying to say just
say no. Know. There's a doctor Mentesh Gurn. He's in
Robin Carhart Harris's lab at U see San Francisco. He
was on episode three and he was there studying the
(50:54):
effects of psilocybin and cannabinoids on the brain. And I'm
by plasticity and talking about, you know, looking into how
to break these habitual patterns that do become ironically hardwired
for some survival reason at some point, but get stuck
(51:16):
because the brain wants us to have predictability. They want
to they want to make it easy for us and
go on autopilot, but we get caught in these loops.
So I'm so excited about your book. That's uh, that's
that's it. I think that would solve many, many, many
of the problems.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
The world is in that direction anyways. Everybody's shifting, and
I think people are looking for meaning or meaning these days.
Speaker 7 (51:43):
So if it helps to give you for a person
who needs it to.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Shift to a higher level of thinking for meaning. So
then you know, go for it.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
Yeah, And I'd like to just bring in a segment
we have called the nip It in the Bud where
we do myth busting. And I was gonna ask Seth
this one true serve fiction. Can you make a bong
out of snow?
Speaker 4 (52:18):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (52:19):
You can, true, true, matter of fact. He did it
last week.
Speaker 9 (52:27):
We did that when we were building the facility back
way way back, you know what I mean, but before
we were licensed, you know, we had there was a
lot of snow and we and my partner Chris and
I did that and took a funny picture of it,
so we you definitely absolutely can do that.
Speaker 2 (52:42):
How much snow? How much snow do you need? And
walk me through this. I've never smoked from a bong.
I've never smoked, but good.
Speaker 4 (52:50):
We just made you know, it was like making the
snow Man.
Speaker 9 (52:53):
But you know what, we just had to make sure
there was a channel that came down and up and
you know, you didn't need any water in it chilled
the smoke.
Speaker 4 (53:00):
Nice, chill the smoke nice for you. So yes you can.
That's funny. Yeah, wow, I lightening. We have a passion
for cannabis. We you know, we've enjoyed the process.
Speaker 9 (53:11):
As hard as it's been, we've been, we've enjoyed every
part of the process from you know, from building the
team to building the facility to operating it.
Speaker 4 (53:19):
Wow, surely you.
Speaker 9 (53:20):
Just try to, you know, have that culture at two
five three where you know, you know, all the all
the tough stuff we keep, we keep behind the scenes,
so you know, you know, we really have a nice
culture there.
Speaker 4 (53:32):
So people, you know, people enjoy things like that.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
So in closing, did anyone come up with the punchline
to what did you hear about the Broadway producer, the
rabbi and the former that walked into a bar or
walked into a dispensary? Anyone got a punchline?
Speaker 6 (53:54):
Sorry, Maria. In all candor, I did win the British
equivalent of which for Best New Comedy a number of
years ago. I still can't come up with an answer
that's funny for this one.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
I have a few ideas, unless Seth, do you have one?
Speaker 4 (54:10):
No, that that's not really that's not my forte.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
No, all right, I think the Broadway producer said to
the dispensary, butd tender, do you have something that's gonna
make me feel like I'm in a chorus loan, I'm
twenty years old, taking my I can kick this high
and the bud tenders, Well, let me think about it,
(54:33):
Farmer says, do you have anything that's gonna put me
in the relaxed state I am when I'm in my
cornfield and the wind is blowing and the breezes and
I want to feel that way and the buttender's shore.
We could hook you up there. And then the Rabbi says,
I'm just looking to get a little higher. Alright, I
(54:57):
don't know that's the best could do.
Speaker 4 (55:03):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Thank you for spending your time with us today on
just saying now. This has been an enlightening conversation touching
on the challenges, opportunities, and evolving cultural connections surrounding the
cannabis industry. Like to recap some key takeaways from today's discussion. First,
we explored the significant barriers that federal illegality presents to
(55:29):
cannabis entrepreneurs and operators who are trying to function legally
in this legally gray space, including limited access to banking
and the burdens of HUX provisions like two ade as
Alan highlighted these challenges demand creativity, resilience, and willingness to
(55:51):
take on risk that other industries don't face yet, as
we discuss, for those who persevere, there is the potential
to shape and industry that is still in its infancy
and create lasting change. We also dove into the operational
challenges of owning a vertically integrated dispensary and sustainable farming.
(56:15):
Thanks to SETS Insights, we learned that cannabis is about
more than consumption. It's about storytelling, community and creating safe
and responsible products that reflect care and intention. Sets artisanal
approach mirrors the sophistication of fine lines and spirits, illustrating
(56:38):
that cannabis extends beyond medicinal use and could hold a
place in both everyday life and even special celebrations. Rabbi
Coen brought us a unique perspective on Kosher certified cannabis,
explaining its importance for inclusivity and its role in broadening
the accessibility of cannabis products beyond faith based communities. Kosher
(57:02):
certification represents a gold standard for cleanliness, quality and integrity,
and cultivation and production. We talked about the connection to
Hanika traditions and the question of whether cannabis can facilitate
deeper spiritual pathways who was both fascinating and thought provoking.
(57:23):
As we look forward at the future of cannabis, it's
clear that this industry stands at crossroads. Whether it's crafting
thoughtful regulations, advocating for normalization and legalization, or simply changing
the way people think about cannabis. The decisions we make now,
(57:45):
they're going to have ripple effects for generations. To our listeners, remember,
cannabis is not just a product. It's a movement, guys,
a culture, and from many a lifeline. The stories we
share today are proof of the diverse voices working tirelessly
(58:10):
to navigate this perplex industry and ensure it thrives responsibly. Finally,
a heartfelt thank you to our guests, Alan Shore for
your entrepreneurial wisdom, Seth Rutherford for your passion for sustainable
agriculture and a responsible Premium Award winning dispensary. Rabbi Yakov
(58:37):
Cohen for your inspiring perspective on inclusivity and tradition, especially
as the story of Hanukkah inspires in us all perseverance
in the face of adversity. Thank you for tuning in
to Just Say No on KCA Radio ten fifty am
one oh six point five FM. Let's continue to rethink
(59:00):
its together until next time. I'm your host, Maria Calabres.
Stay curious, stay informed, stay festive, and just say no
with a K and a W K and ow Happy Holidays,
everybody happy, and say stay it, Let it glow. Just
(59:20):
Say No is a green bee Life presentation airing live
weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm Pacific
on KCA Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes are
on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Speaker, and most third
(59:41):
party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out on GBLTV,
on greenbee Life YouTube, and Rumble. To follow us our Instagram,
at Facebook is at just Say No Radio. To apply
to be a guest on the show or for sponsorship
(01:00:04):
and advertising opportunities, go to greenbelife dot com.
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