Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello again and welcome to Just Say No, where we
spotlight the innovators behind cannabis's news, products and the groundbreaking
ideas driving the legal cannabis movement with some of the
smartest minds in the industry. Thank you for tuning in.
I'm your host Maria Calabrese on KCAA Radio ten fifty
(00:26):
am one oh six point five FM. I'm honored, I'm
privileged to be joined today by an incredible panel of
voices that are as lively as they are diverse. Alan
Shore is an entrepreneur, cannabis investor, and multiple Tony Award
winning Broadway producer who brings his expertise from a variety
(00:48):
of industries to the cannabis space. Zeth Rutherford is the
founder of Waterworks, providing a sustainable water management system to
the island of Nantucket, and owner operator of an award
winning dispensary in Massachusetts. Seth joins us with roots in
agriculture since childhood and Rabbi Yakov Cohen. Rabbi Cohen is
(01:13):
the founder of Whole Kosher Services and the president of
Returning Light, a nonprofit dedicated to the study of Torah
and Kabbala. He will share insights into the intersection of faith, tradition,
and kosher certified cannabis. Together, we'll dive into some of
the most pressing topics shaping the cannabis landscape, including what
(01:37):
it really takes to start a cannabis business given the
threats and challenges of operating legally in a federally illegal
space green rush or bus, and most importantly, in the
spirit of the holiday season, we'll explore lessons and perseverance
learned from the story of Hanukkah and the concept of
(01:58):
kosher cannabis, what it means to be kosher certified cannabis.
So get cozy, but not too cozy if you're driving,
and get ready to find out what happens when a
Broadway producer, or a rabbi and a farmer walk into
a dispensary. Because the rules and regulations we establish now
at the crossroads of federal legalization will shape the future
(02:21):
of cannabis for generations to come. So let's dig in
and explore just what's at stake.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars, and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars
each and every year.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I can see so much.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Ym Moroses, Yon Moroses, I'm a better fie who has
only begon taking me a while to get it, had
to live and cry to appreciate your life and what
(03:25):
you give. His words, when you're holding na, when you
hold me so close, someone better and under your skill.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Welcome everyone today's show. I'm looking forward to exploring today's
topics through the lens of innovation, resilience, and Honikah. In Hebrew,
Honikah means dedication, and the holiday celebrates the rededication of
the Temple in Jerusalem in the second century BC, after
a small, but determined and blessed group of Jewish fighters
(03:56):
liberated it from occupying forces. So what does this to
do with cannabis, you're probably wondering. Well, despite its legalization
in most states, cannabis remains federally classified as a Schedule
one drug, a designation the falsely, and I might add,
recklessly equates it with dangerous substances like LSD or heroin.
(04:19):
Do you to have no medical value and a high
potential for abuse? Yeah. This contradiction creates unique challenges for
the plant entrepreneurs, consumers and advocates forcing their very existence.
They're very survival against significant odds that affect us. All.
(04:42):
I've asked our panel to join us today. I wanted
to start with Alan Shore as an entrepreneur in the
space to give us an overview of the challenges of
starting a cannabis business in today's legal landscape. Welcome Alan,
So good to see you again.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Alan, It's nice to see you.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Also, thank you, thank you for joining us. You're going
to have great insights. But before diving in, I like
you to tell our listeners a little bit about your
entrepreneurial background in your own words, I.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
Didn't realize I was an entrepreneur until somebody told me
I was.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
I was always trying to do things differently, and from
the time that I really went to left college, you know, graduated,
until to the rest of my life, I always thought
there are better ways to do things, and the people
that I was working for doing other things. I thought, well,
(05:40):
I'll try it my way. And then somebody said, well,
you're really an entrepreneur, and I said, okay, well, if
that's what you want to call me. So my background
was in music, theater and something that has nothing to
do with music and theater, which is accounting and finance.
But believe it or not, they do go together. And
as a result of at what I've been able to
(06:01):
do is employ my skills from an accounting and from
a financial background to help create different companies in the
financial services world now the cannabis world. And believe it
or not, the accounting and financial skills that I've acquired
over the years has really helped me in being a
(06:24):
producer in the theater world because it's really about numbers,
and part of that is making sure that you stay
with the budget, that the budget's correct and everything has
done the right way.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
If you've never had the pleasure of being in Woody
Allen's office in New York, over his desk, he has
a sign that says it's show business, right, not show show,
So you are spot on. How do you connect these
skills to this cannabis industry.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
The same way you would connect the skills to any industry.
Being in the financial services world, it's one of the
most highly regulated, least I thought highly regulated industries in
the world. You've got multiple agencies, governmental, non governmental agencies
are always looking over your shoulder. You've got all kinds
of compliance issues that you have to adhere to. So
(07:21):
the cannabis business is similar to the fact that it's regulated.
You've got compliance issues, you've got the same financial concerns
of any other business. So the skill set that a person,
any person might have in running or starting or managing
a business, can be employed and can be an entrepreneur
(07:42):
in any kind of business, including the cannabis business. And
without that skill set, it's going to be very challenging
for anyone to be successful really in any business. And
part of that, and the most important part of that,
which is true again for any kind of business, surrounding
yourself with people that are better than you, that know
(08:04):
more than you, and they're specific whatever it is that
they do, whether it's growing or in the cannabis business
or whostsale, whatever it happens to be, and letting them
take the ball, let their run with it. If they
make a mistake, they make a mistake, but certainly let
them do the things that they do best and stay
out of their way so that everybody stays in their
(08:25):
own lane. And if you allow that to happen, the
chance of success are greater than if you try to
step into somebody else's position or somebody else's lane.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Well before I dive deep in with you into advice
for starting a cannabis business. Speaking of surrounding yourself with
people smarter than you, I am surrounded by it's an
embarrassment of riches. So I just want to bring in
next the rabbi to tell a little bit of about
(09:00):
his background in his own words, and what he asked
to do with cannabis, and then we'll bring Seth in,
and then we'll dive into the interview with my first
question to Alan, Rabbi, welcome.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
Great to be here, very special.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
To have you here because I understand you were in Israel. Yes,
I'd love to have you tell us a little bit
about yourself and your own words.
Speaker 6 (09:26):
Okay, quickly, you know, I was not always like many
people were, not a rabbi before the rebbe. I wasn't
raised religious. I was raised very secular. I didn't become
religious until I went to Israel when I was nineteen
years old, and then I was in a rabbinical school
and spent nineteen years there and then got married, raised
(09:48):
a family, started a family, and then moved to to Texas.
So and that's when I got involved in being involved
in kosher food and kosher services, and of course it
branched out. And the quick background story is I had
a son who was diagnosed as having brain cancer. He
(10:13):
did pass away after a year and a half, but
during that time he when he had a relapse, we
were introduced into cannabis. I had already been doing kosher
food production and giving kosher certification to various other industries,
but here was the cannabis industry. My son was. I
(10:36):
was trying to give him cannabis in terms of all
of the research that was done. And so my father
and some friends says, why don't you go and work
and see about making cannabis kosher because this and it
has such medicinal properties. People need it. People are going
to be looking for it, and they'll be much more
(10:56):
comfortable if it's kosher. So that's when I reached out
to was what we spoke Tracy Ryan of Cana Kids
other places in California. I think that's where it started
first and started to make very many products kosher, offering
kosher services until I and then of course I was
(11:17):
introduced to two five to three organic on the on
the East Coast. Yeah, that was great man. Yeah, so
you know, I was really excited to go there and
help them out in terms of getting their kosher certification.
It was a really a lot of fun. It's such
an awesome dispensary, a great place to visit, to drive there,
(11:41):
it's just amazing. So and I always enjoy going and
making my usual routine kosher visits.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Oh, that's amazing, amazing. My condolences for your son, and
my hats off to you for when western medicine doesn't
have a solution for going beyond. I can't even imagine
as a parent, first of all, going through something like that,
(12:12):
Second of all, having to make the decision to try
cannabis and to have gotten to that point to have
to do that.
Speaker 6 (12:23):
And it was very experimental, like nobody knew really knew
what was going on.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Then, right, you mentioned canna kids, Josh and Tracy Ryan.
They're just an amazing, amazing couple, And of course they're
little girl Sophie who was afflicted with a brain tumor,
and you know, back then, I mean what a mom
will do for their child. Tracy actually was able to
(12:50):
get Cedar Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles to give her
a piece of her two year old's brain tissue, and
she transported it herself and in iglu cooler on a
plane to Israel. Could you just tell us quickly before
we bring in the next smart one here smarter than
all of us, Seth, just tell us a little bit
(13:12):
about the difference in how Israel approaches medical Malwana and Malawana.
In the United States.
Speaker 6 (13:20):
It is stricter, it's harder to get a prescription, it's
only medicinal, and have a very tight knit on the
production where it flows and things like that. You know,
it's not so easy you could just walk into a dispensary.
It's it's you know, so there are much a few
more hoops to go through in order to get the medicine.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yes, the hoops aside. It is medically available and has
been for decades. So what they have on the United
States and the rest of the world is a jump
on the research. In fact, it was yeah, so they
haven't had that optioncle or burden. So they were.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
When we were in Texas with our son Alisha, we
were debating whether to go to California or Israel, because
Israel had the research, but we wouldn't be able to
access it if we were. Oh, so we went, We
opted to go to California.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yes, So it's you know, legalization. It impacts so many
people from so many different walks of life in so
many different ways.
Speaker 6 (14:29):
We're all, we're all, we're trying to crawl out of
the stigma. You know, we're trying to help people crawl
out of the stigma, which is really what I'm about,
you know, because to make it available and offer it
to be kosher, you know, medicinal wise. You know, still
a lot of people in my circles are still very
much against it, even though it's inedible, even though it's
(14:52):
you know, medicinal. They'll let it, but usually buy and large,
you know, they still have that stigma there.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
We've got him out and to climb. But I'm glad
we're doing it.
Speaker 6 (15:05):
The Maccabees are about.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Right, that's right, And I'm glad against the big Fed
that's right.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
South. I have I have a question for the.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Rabbi Okay, sorry, set Oh my goodness, guy Alan, When.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
Moses went up to Mount Sinai and the burning bush,
what was that bush made of?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
And where he saw the Oh my goodness, when the.
Speaker 6 (15:35):
God Alaska, oh.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
A Alan, when the god spoke, there was smoke. So
absolutely so set Set. You have your roots is having
been working on a farm since the age of eleven
years old. Somehow the labor laws that was legal. But
(16:00):
all right, don't get me started. So and you have
this background and knowledge and sustainable agriculture. You're the founder
of water Works, having come up with a water management
system to serve as islands like the island of Nantucket.
And you are a co owner and operator of one
(16:23):
of Massachusetts's most premier award winning pharmacies, two five to
three pharmacy. That's pharmacy with an F. So tell us
a little bit about yourself and two five three pharmacy.
And Allen, I want you taking notes because we're going
to do cannabis the musical.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Okay, well, we actually did something like that called Flight
over Sunset a few years ago that just didn't work.
But it was it wasn't cannabis, it was other drugs.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
All right.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Start by thank you for having me. I very much
appreciate your time and being able to join. I'm a
Massachusetts resident born and raised in Western mass and Western
mass you know as you, as you stated, is really
all about agriculture here. I live here right here in
Hadley and Hadley mass is you know, has has I
(17:22):
think the second best top soil in the world behind
San Joaquin Valley in California. And I ended up marrying
into a farming family as well, farming anything from tobacco
to asparagus to corn. And you know, they do have
some cattle kicking around for all the excess you know,
vegetables that they don't sell.
Speaker 7 (17:38):
And so when.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was twenty one, I had an opportunity to move
down to Nantucket with my partner.
Speaker 7 (17:44):
So, you know, Joe and I moved down to Nantucket
and started water works.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
And we're very fortunate to move to a place like
Nantucket and have an end and you know, work for
some probably you know, some of the the wealthiest people
in the world that really care about their landscapes and
care about their homes. And really gave myself an education there,
just you know, learning, you know, learning all the different
aspects of you know, building sustainable landscapes.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
I was, I was, I was elected to what was
called the Article sixty eight board.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
What the Article sixty eight board was we were trying
to find a way to limit the nitrogen and phosphorus
use on Nantucket so that we would not pollute our estuaries.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
And we and through.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
That board, we we developed a b MP which is
the best management practice and currently I believe it's still
is the strictest in the state on nitrogen use. And
we lived with the nitrogen use on Nantucket to three
pounds per thousand and so that we really try to educate,
you know, landscapers and the tradesmen and women, you know,
how to properly apply fertilizers so that you are not
(18:46):
you You're you're keeping a healthy landscape, but you're not
damaging you know, the environment around you.
Speaker 7 (18:51):
And you know, cannabis was always you know, I always
use it.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
I'm a very energetic individual and I always use cannabis
as a way to calm down, in a way to
just melow myself out. And I've always had a real
passion for it. And from there, you know, in two
thousand and eight came around, we really had a passion
to get into it.
Speaker 7 (19:12):
You know, we're builders, we're in the landscape trade.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
We understand you know, plant water maintenance, and we ended
up you know, finding very fortunate enough to find Out
and Marsha as partners. And I think that's one of
the really things that separates two five three is the
partnership that we were able to bring together because we
were able to bring professionals from all different you know,
walks of life, lawyers, financial people, construction people, landscape people,
(19:41):
and really kind of bring everyone together to run a
very complex industry that doesn't have data, you know.
Speaker 7 (19:48):
To look up and to see what to do.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
It's really something that you know, you have to really
make good decisions and see them through and pivot on
a dime if the decisions that you made seem to
be going in the wrong direction. And so you know,
we ended up partnering Chris and i A partnered with
Alan and Marsha and we built their own facility. We
operate our own facility. So, you know, a very unique company,
(20:12):
and we really worry about quality. Worry about bringing a
quality product to the table for customers, something that a
customer could find relief in whatever.
Speaker 7 (20:21):
They're looking for.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, I'm you're in a perfect spot when to segue
from quality. We're twenty minutes into the show and in
California it is for twenty so every show at four twenty,
we have a segment called quick Hits. So We're going
to get a quick hit where I'm going to ask
(20:43):
the Rabbi to drop a knowledge bomb for us. And
the quick hit that I'm going to ask him is, Rabbi,
what is kosher aims and how does it become certified?
Speaker 6 (20:59):
So you know, talk about what kosher is. First of all,
you have to understand, kosher does not mean blessed by
the Rabbi. Okay, there's a serious laws, the criteria that
comes from the Five Books of Moses, covering an entire
spectrum of different foods, everything from meat to dairy, fish, fowl, bugs,
(21:22):
and grapes. So all of these different levels of food
or areas of food have different criteria that meets kosher standards.
Like your animal needs two signs to be a kosher animal, right, Alan,
you know which two signs those are.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
It has to its cud and it has to have
its cud and have a clooned hoof.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, ing thing we should rest for the knowledge.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
Bar the day.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Okay, I came from a very religious home and became
secular later.
Speaker 6 (22:01):
Yeah, so that's an animal has to have those signs
and even if it has those signs and it's not
properly ritually slaughtered, it's not kosher. So if if cow
was not killed in the ritual slaughterway, even though it's
a kosher animal. So anything of that cow or any
derivative of that which gets into cannabis because of a gelatin.
(22:24):
For the most of the industry uses gelatin either from
a pig or cow, that not kosher. That to make
their gummies. Okay, of course many are making from pectin.
That's a different story. Well, let's say dairy, we don't
mix milk and meat. You know, we have an issue
of bugs. Now, just to zero win on cannabis. The
(22:46):
plant itself, like any other plant or vegetable, has no
problems with being kosher, like an apple or a banana.
The only issues with certain vegetables or fruits is a
predominance of insects because we're not allowed to eat a bug.
According to the Torah. We break six five or five
commandments if we eat a bug. Okay, and if you
(23:11):
know there's bugs in there, you gotta wash it and
check it before you eat it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
They were a friend of green bee.
Speaker 6 (23:18):
Yeah, green Bee. I was wondering was it a bee
that's green or the okay, so the plants themselves. I
did go to Mendocina. We gave a Kosher certificate to
a farm there. I did check there and they have
these very little insects called thrips in the buds talk
(23:40):
about the flower tops. So I asked a very big
rabbi about it, and he says, well, because most of
the people are burning it because they're smoking it, so
the bugs are getting burned. So there's no problem of
the bugs if they're eating it like in a salad,
which some people I've been described.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
In raw yes, raw form, so then you have an issue.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
It has to be cleaned of bugs and don't even
know if it can be because of the stickiness of it.
So therefore, predominantly mostly so the flower tops really don't
really need a Kosher certification, but it helps because of marketing,
because don't forget, kosher is not just for religious Jews.
(24:24):
Kosher Kosher could extend to Muslims, vegetarians, vagans, and health
conscientious people looking for that. There's a third set of
eyes looking on this product to guarantee that it's safe, okay.
So that's why people if in a grocery store, sixty
percent of the things in the grocery store are have
(24:45):
a Kosher symbol on it. Sixty percent of the items
in any grocery store now in the United States, and
people will always choose an item with a Kosher symbol
over an item without a kocher stole because they know
there was another pair of eyes.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
It's a mark, it's a gold standard. It's a gold standard.
Speaker 6 (25:03):
Correct, So then yes, absolutely so then when you now
moving on past the bug So then when you process
the bugs into oil, so then you get into solvents
and things that come in contact with the plant. So
you have to make sure those solvents are coming from
kosher sources. The biggest solvent that's used most likely today
(25:24):
is is ethanol. Now ethanol, everybody will instantly think it's
it's corn, it's weed. It's not necessarily. There are ethanols
that are made from grapes, which present a kosher issue
because we have a very strict rule about our grapes.
Even grape juice, it has to be squeezed from an
(25:44):
observant jew until it's bottled. For sure, wine because we
use it in rituals all the time. The rabbis made
very strict decrees that it has to be a Jewish wine.
So ethanol could be made from grapes. Ethanol could also
be made from way, which is a cheese, which is
also a big, huge kosher issue. So we have to
(26:04):
make sure that the ethanol or any solvents that are
used in order to turn to make the oils have
to come from kosher sources. And then when you go
onto that, let's say you're when you're making your intivals,
like any other kosher material, all the materials have to
be kosher. The chocolate, the sugar, the flavorings, the gummies,
the pectin, all of those items have to meet certain
(26:27):
certain specific Kosher criteria in order to be kosher. Okay. So,
and then there's a course to maintain the equipment. So
that's the kosher industry in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Oh, it's fascinating. And what's really fascinating is I'm going
to just start a movement that everyone in Congress, everyone
in normal decision makers have to get bar mitz foot because.
Speaker 8 (26:52):
You guys were able to work this out with Jewish law,
but America I don't know, So thank.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You my goodness, say it can there it can, there's
always a solution, which brings me to the cannabis Running
a cannabis business. Alan, The cannabis industry is estimated to
employ over a half a million people right. It includes
approximately twelve thousand licensed retail locations. It's estimated to earn
(27:28):
thirty billion dollars a year, more than the Baseball League,
National Football League, and NBA combined. Yeah, it remains classified
as a Schedule one substance, presenting passive challenges that, like
you said, startups and other industries aren't faced with. So
(27:51):
my question to you is, given the current legal landscape
and the challenges that they present to running cannabis business,
who is making all the money? Is anybody making any money?
And what inspired you to enter this space?
Speaker 5 (28:08):
All right? So the first question is really easy to answer.
Who's making all the money the state? For with the
tax that the Feds, they're making all the money because
they're they're taxing cannabis companies on income that they don't
really have, and the tax that cannabis companies have to
(28:33):
pay is different than any other industry in the United States.
So that's that's So that's the easy answer to your question.
What's what inspired. The question was what inspired me to
do this? Yes, well, not understanding what the federal regulators
were going to taxes on, and the idea that with
(28:58):
any business, if you can run it efficiently and you
can mitigate the tax issues that you can, and you
have good partners and you know what you're doing, then
you can you can make it work despite the tax burden.
So that that's really what it was, because I had
no clue, I mean, not a sintilla of an idea
(29:19):
of cannabis up until the time I met Seth and Chris.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Nothing, none of us did. I I can't tell you
how many people in the state of California didn't vote
for League Station or say they wish they hadn't.
Speaker 5 (29:35):
Yeah, So it's you know, it's a business just like
show business, or the or the legal business, or the
broad you know, it's the entertainment business in general, and
it all has its quirks. But the cannabis. Cannabis business
is probably, at least in Massachusetts, the most regulated industry
in the entire state, with the highest burden of taxation.
(29:58):
And that's just it's not basically not fair.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
And I thought California was higher.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
I don't I don't think so. I think we're talking
about federal taxes and federal state feder Wait.
Speaker 6 (30:14):
A minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute, Federal schedule one, correct,
and yet they're right able to tax it.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
Excuse me, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
Considered to be federally what? What? What group group one
or level one?
Speaker 5 (30:29):
Yeah? Right, yeah, so it doesn't allow you to take
deductions for in the ordinary course of business. Without getting
too technical, INNES Section one sixty two ordinary business expenses
that every other business is able to take, accelerated appreciation
and other things that businesses are entitled to, and therefore
(30:51):
you're paying tax on literally phantom income. And that's just yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Two eighty regionated in nineteen eighty one during the Reagan administration.
I'll tell you, Rabbi and Seth, I know Alan, you
know this. I'm not sure if you do, set But
it came about when a convicted cocaine trafficker argued in
court that he should be allowed to deduct his legitimate
business expenses, the zip ties for his cocaine trafficking, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera,
(31:22):
And despite his business being illegal, he was able to
deduct business expenses. So two eighty eight came in response
to that, Congress established the rule which prohibits anyone involved
in trafficking controlled substances from deducting their business expenses. And
(31:45):
as long as cannabis is on that list of controlled substances,
it can't deduct any of its expenses such as becoming certified, kosher,
storage and transportation, banking, franchise fees, packaging, marketing, none of
it is tax deduct dimetric bills. There you go, So
(32:06):
I could speak for I think a legal cannabis operator
could face a federal tax rate of around seventy percent
in addition to the state and local taxes. And on
top of this, in Los Angeles there's a five percent
excise tax.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
So as the analogy there, you know, if you're running
a retail store, and if you did a million dollars
a year in business, and a half a million dollars
was the product that that retail store bought to resell,
that retail store would pay tax on a half a
million dollars. The only thing you would be able to
duct is the product you bought, so you would you
would pay tax on your labor. You're parking, you know,
(32:46):
your your snow plowing anything above and beyond. And so
you know, in the early days when the margins were high,
and I'm talking the early days of Massachusetts when we
opened in nineteen margins were high. There wasn't a lot
of retail stores. We were able to pull and put
poll profits. As this industry continues to condense and get saturated,
(33:07):
it's really become catastrophic for companies. And you know, they're
just not able to survive on margins because you need
exponential margins to continue to pay The federal government told
you he was smart.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Is it still getting saturated the market in your opinion?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Well, I think, you know, I mean, I mean, the
answer to that is I stutter a little bit. I
think we're hopefully on the verge of coming the other way.
You know, we we were down to like four dollars
and fifty cents a gram on the retail side. And
when we get down to four dollars a gram, producers
can't produce it for two dollars a gram and say live.
(33:47):
And so when I'm talking to retail at four fifty,
so when the retail's four and these retail stores are keystoning,
we're very close to the bottom if we're not there yet.
And just in the last month we've seen some very
big operators closed their doors in Massachusetts, and I think
that that's going to continue. And so, you know, to
get back to you know, what Alman was saying about cannabis.
(34:09):
You know how how it's how it's very unique, can't
you know, Instead of you know a lot of businesses
where you're you're looking to increase revenues, in cannabis, you're
looking to reduce costs. You run that business on cost
base and you don't take risks of costs are associated
due to the taxes because those costs turn into income
(34:30):
to you and you have to pay more phantom income
and so it's a very difficult business. So it's really
a lean and mean.
Speaker 7 (34:38):
Business model to stay alive and debt.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Like I say, you know, people ask, well, how do
you survive in cannabis? And it's factious, right, but it's like, well,
don't write a check because every check you write his
income to you, even though you're giving it to someone else. Okay,
So it's you know, it's really you know, it's it's
kind of the you know, it's as you really have
to be very cognitive of of how you operate rate
and you know at two five three, we've always taken
(35:03):
the approach where we don't have a huge wholesale department
and we don't kind of have a ton of marketing
because a lot of companies get themselves in trouble where
they they spend more to make less, and you really
have to watch your bottom line and be conservative and
concentrate on yourself.
Speaker 6 (35:22):
You should have a blessing. You should have a blessing
and continued blessing for continued success and growth.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Well Allen and Seth, and even with the rabbis blessing,
you gave the best advice. You have to go low
and slow. You have to be leaning mean, you have
to be able to survive legalization. And it's really a
conundrum because you don't have access to financing that other
(35:51):
startups have. Many financial institutions aren't going to want to
touch it if the government's deeming it illegal.
Speaker 6 (36:00):
I'll give you.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
An example of how bad it is. I had an
American Airlines abandoned City Bank card and I got about
a year and a half ago, I got a notice
of them saying we've canceled your card, and I said,
why and they said, because you own an interest in
a cannabis company and it's federally illegal. I said, oh.
(36:23):
At the same time, they're also city bank banks the
State of New York's cannabis business. So it's like, okay, well,
why can you do one or not the other. But
that's how bad it's become at.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Times it is. And you know, necessity is the mother
of invention. So anyone who can survive this should be
on the cover of Fortune five hundred. I mean, it's
going to take minds as bright as this panel, and
it never hurts that the Rabbi's blessing. But all these
(36:55):
entrepreneurs that jumped in believing, hey, this is going to
be the next silicon, it's the next big giant among
growth industries. Guys. It's a green revolution, not a green rush.
So if you're thinking of going into it, be prepared
to join the revolution.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
Well, I'll go one step further, Maria. Unless you're at
least in Massachusetts, unless you're vertically integrated, you cannot make money, period.
It's just impossible.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Can you explain to our listeners what a vertically integrated
license means?
Speaker 5 (37:32):
I can now because Seth taught me so I'm gonna
let Seth my teacher explain it better than me.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
So a vertically integrated facility, a vertically integrated means that
you do everything yourself, where you have your own cultivation, manufacturing,
and your retail outlets. And so it's really in Massachusetts,
it's really coming down to the verticals are able to
you know, weather this storm much easier than standalone standalone retailers.
(38:00):
If they're at a very good location, they'll do okay.
Standalone cultivators and standalone manufacturers, unfortunately, are taking a.
Speaker 7 (38:09):
Beating right now.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
And it's really not fair because the wholesale rates, like
I explained before, are so bad at four dollars and
you know, at two dollars and twenty five cents if
you want to, if you want to look at it
that way, they're they're virtually not making anything. And and
a lot of these and a lot of the small
companies are mom and pop companies like two five to
three that have invested everything they've had to get into this,
(38:32):
and you know, there a lot of them are tied
to all sorts of leases and personal guarantees and it's
in you know, and another really unfortunate fact in the
cannabis industry is there is no bankruptcy.
Speaker 7 (38:43):
You go, you go into receivership and you lose everything
you own.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
And and I think that's why a lot of people
hang on longer than one might think they would.
Speaker 7 (38:53):
But it's you know, it's it's it's definitely not all
roses behind the scenes. And the states, the state always
in the federal government always you know, puts out how
much sale, how many so, how much sales there are,
but it really doesn't equate to the to the profits
behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Wow. And I'd like to just move on before turning
to the strength that we can glean from the story
of Hanukkah'd like to move on to how all of
these federal inaction, all the competing state regulatory down to
the local level, all the different federal agencies commission to
(39:32):
protect consumers, How all of this regulatory game of pypon
effects innovation and at the end of the day, the
consumer getting quality, let alone kosher certified cannabis. What's the
impact that this is going to have.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Well, I think that's probably the same for any industry.
As you know, desperate times or take people take desperate measures.
And so I think that's really the unfortunate fact. And
you know, people need to stay alive, they need to eat,
they need to feed their family.
Speaker 7 (40:05):
And you know, when when when when when When.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
You get into a situation like that, you know you
you probably at times aren't putting out the best products
due to you know, do those type of reasons.
Speaker 7 (40:14):
So it's very unfortunate.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
I think anytime you have an affluent business, you know,
you know, those type of things are much easier to accomplish.
Speaker 7 (40:22):
And so you know.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
It's it's it's it's a it's it's unfortunate where where
where we are right now, as people are just trying
to survive, you know, for two five three, you know,
we don't break any we don't try to break any
rules or break any rules, and we really just try
to stick with quality because as hard as it is
to continue to stay on that line, eventually it will
(40:46):
pay off. But it's just it's a grind and you know,
we're edging our name into a piece of stone right now,
and we're definitely not done yet. But you know, if
you do it right, and you continue to do it right,
you will there will be light at thee nothing last forever.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yes, and if you have regulations that facilitate and energize
and promote your being able to do it right. Here's
a not so fun fact, Rabbi, you were talking about
Los Angeles. There are more weed stores in LA than Starbucks,
but more than seventy percent of the LA dispensaries are illegal.
Speaker 6 (41:27):
Amazing, and there's no crackdown on them.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
No crackdown. That's with all the taxes that the legal
guys are paying. Their question is where is the enforcement?
Where are those tax dollars going? They're not going into
a forcement, And it's I want to try to get
Mayor bass on and speak and just regulators to We're
(41:52):
trying to understand why the police I'm sorry, turn a
blind I and not to mention it's it's it explains
why huge amount of the biggest legal cannabis companies valued
it up to three billion dollars recently filed for bankruptcy.
Speaker 6 (42:16):
Is there any movements out there as far as let's say,
like fixing the regulations, deregulating or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
On the National Cannabis Industry Association which could use support.
It is the National Cannabis Industry Association out of Washington, DC,
but they have a strong presence in Los Angeles. They're trying,
but they have their lobbyists. The multi state operators have
their own lobbyists, and the industry is splintered. So finding
(42:52):
guys like Seth and Allen in yourself who have an
interest in high quality premium up to the gold standard
of kosher cannabis, heart has.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
To be in it your heart. The heart has to be.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
That's right, it does. Yeah, So speaking of heart, Rabbi,
the story behind kosher cannabis a lot of heart. I'm
sorry it came to you through such a tragedy with
your son, but can you talk to us about the
(43:29):
story of cannabis and maybe some lessons that people in
the cannabis industry.
Speaker 6 (43:34):
One very, you know, we had a very there's a
very big Hasidic grab I lived about two hundred years ago.
He was two hundred and fifty years ago. He's called
the Balishem Toove. He was like a really big innovator
in terms of Jewish practice. He completely just gave an
in depth way that how Judaism can be approached and
(43:55):
everybody can have a direct personal relationship with God. And
he had one of his followers was also a tremendous scholar,
and he said this about an interesting question that maybe
people that might have contemplated, was if you look in
the world and most of the medicines of the world
(44:15):
they come from herbs, correct, would you.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Say, absolutely absolutely listen to.
Speaker 6 (44:21):
This, Where does that come from? Or why is that so? Okay?
So here's a little story. On the third day of creation.
You know that God created the world in six days,
rested on the seventh and the third day of creation.
God created the trees and the plants and the grasses
(44:45):
d three day three he created dry land and oceans,
and then he created the trees with bearing fruit and grasses.
Now listen to this. Follow me, follow me. He told
the trees, you guys, cannot the mango. Three does not
tango with the avocado. Right, No grafting, no mixing, no blending.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Very woke.
Speaker 6 (45:12):
No, he wants he wants a mango to be a
pure mango and an avocado to be a pure avocado.
We don't want mango avocado.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Okay, all right, Man came.
Speaker 6 (45:24):
And came and they started me. Anyways, the trees were
told not to mix the grasses. He didn't say anything
to oh oh, creator.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Didn't tell him, are you serious?
Speaker 6 (45:36):
And the grasses are left with this, what are we
supposed to do? Right? And so they made this kind
of a fiori argument, this kind of logical syllogism argument.
They say, well, if trees which are normally separate, they
don't really get grow close to each other. And they
(45:58):
were told not to mix, so us grasses, which were
all over the place all the more so we shouldn't mix. Okay,
So they made this syllogism and conclusion. They had a
little board meeting, right, they had a hall in favor, okay,
and they all agreed we're not gonna mix. So Hashen says,
(46:20):
oh my gosh, you guys came up with that all
by yourself. Okay. And because you guys came up with
that all by yourself, I am now going to give
you the gift of healing. There's much more in a
way to explain it, but I'm gonna explain it right
just enough for them. So therefore God bestowed upon all
(46:42):
the grass as and herbs the gift of healing. Now,
the interesting thing is there's this one grass that got
a bad wrap, poor little cannabis. The stone, the stone
that was cast away by the builders becomes the corners stone.
That's the rule. The grass that was cast away by
(47:05):
the builders becomes the cornerstone. So things that things were.
Nobody would consider that cannabis would have medicinal purposes. But
it has I think greater medicinal purposes than ever. Right,
So why.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
It's such a tragedy that it's trapped in Schedule one
because it's.
Speaker 6 (47:24):
Getting its way, it's finding its way here. Listen, who
would ever have thought thirty years ago that this would
such a thing would occur when California became legal. It
was like a huge like what who would ever think? Right?
It had a bad rap, right Anslinger? Right? Was it?
J Paul Getty? Who has it? Forgot? Who was rant Hurst?
(47:47):
William Randolph Hearst. They gave it a bad rap, right,
But you know, the stone that was cast away by
the builders becomes the cornerstone. So you So those who
will hang on with heart with lafe like the mag
Kabes did. They had to fight against the Greeks were
much more greater and much more numerous. If you want
to talk about hanakah okay, they had to have to
(48:08):
have your heart has to be in it. You have
to be coming with a mission of you know, it
helps a lot of people. And that's why I got
into the kosher, to make it kosher. A lot of
people get helped. It helps a lot of people. I
get calls emails all the time. Where can I find it?
Where I'm here? Where can I get it? So it's
(48:28):
it's it's a mitzvah. If it's a mitzvah and you're
certain and there's a higher reason, it gives us the
strength to go on right seth alan, You should be
blessed to the strength to continue and be and God
will grant you that strength and you'll continue to be
successful to hold on. There were two places in Massachusetts
(48:51):
which I was giving kosher certification to close down. They
couldn't hold it, like you said, closing their doors on.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
About you talked about the medicinal mitzvah. Do you think
cannabists can open up spiritual pathways? You know you talk
about the light from above, life from below, and then
within in the coach.
Speaker 6 (49:14):
I have a question, and I don't I don't have
an answer for you, but I have a question. All
rabbis are supposed to answer questions with questions. Right, yes, right,
isn't that the rule?
Speaker 1 (49:24):
It's Socratic method. Yes, Well, you.
Speaker 6 (49:27):
Know, if it has medicinal, why would I Shem make it?
Why would God make it psychoactive?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Ah?
Speaker 6 (49:37):
You know, if it has to have a medicine and
it's going to relieve pain or whatever, aches or whatever,
help people sleep, why does that have to happen? So,
you know, I think in the back of my head
and I'm just thinking out loud. You know, we have
to start the world has to start thinking differently, and
(49:58):
sometimes people are so stuck and their patterns of thinking,
which goes into my book. My book has to do
with how our thoughts create angels.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Oh, congratulations, congratulations.
Speaker 6 (50:09):
And it's called it's called the Jewish Guide to Manifesting.
That's the name of the book, Jewish Guide to Manifesting. Right, So,
our patterns of thinking sometimes need to shift, wouldn't you agree?
Sometimes if you're stuck in a problem, you need to
see it from a different angle on, don't you see
it from a different perception?
Speaker 1 (50:29):
That's the whole point of the title of this show.
It used to be on the war on drugs, just
say no. And oh, and I'm trying to say just
say no. Know, there's a doctor Mentesh Gern. He's in
Robin Carhart Harris's lab at uc San Francisco. He was
on episode three and he was there studying the effects
(50:51):
of psilocybin and cannabinoids on the brain and on bioplasticity
and talking about, you know, looking into how to break
these habitual patterns that do become ironically hardwired for some
survival reason at some point, but get stuck because the
(51:13):
brain wants us to have predictability. They want to they
want to make it easy for us and go on autopilot,
but we get caught in these loops. So I'm so
excited about your book. That's uh, that's that's it. I
think that would solve many, many, many of the problems.
Speaker 6 (51:32):
The world is in that direction anyways. Everybody's shifting and
I think people are looking for meaning or meaning these days.
So if it helps to give you for a person
who needs it to shift to a higher level of
thinking for meaning, so then you know, go for it.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, And I'd like to just bring in a segment
we have called the nip It in the Bud where
we do myth busting. And I was gonna ask Seth
this one true serve fiction. Can you make a bong
out of snow?
Speaker 6 (52:14):
Yes, you can, true, true, matter of fact, he did
it last week.
Speaker 3 (52:24):
We did that when we were building the facility back
way way back, you know what I mean. But before
we were licensed, you know, we had there was a
lot of snow and and my partner Chris and I
did that and took a funny picture of it.
Speaker 7 (52:36):
So we you definitely absolutely can do that.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
How much snow? How much snow do you need? And
walk me through this. I've never smoked from a bong.
I've never smoked, but.
Speaker 7 (52:46):
We just made you know, it was like making the
snow man.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
But you know what, we just had to make sure
there was a channel that came down and up and
you know, you didn't need any water in it.
Speaker 7 (52:55):
Chilled the smoke. Nice, chilled the smoke nice for you.
So yes, you can. That's funny.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
Yeah, wow, I am enlightened. We have a passion for cannabis.
We you know, we've enjoyed the process. As hard as
it's been, we've been, we've enjoyed every part of the
process from you know, from building the team to building
the facility to operating it. Wow, really just try to,
you know, have that culture at two five three where
(53:20):
you know, you know, all the all the tough stuff
we keep, we keep behind the scenes, so you know,
you know, we really have a nice culture there. So people,
you know, people enjoy things like that.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
So in closing, did anyone come up with the punchline
to what did you hear about the Broadway producer, the
rabbi and the former that walked into a bar or
walked into a dispensary? Anyone got a punchline?
Speaker 5 (53:50):
Sorry, Maria. In all candor, I did win the British
equivalent of a Tony for Best New Comedy a number
of years ago. I still can't come up with an
answered that's funny for this one.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
I have a few ideas, unless Seth, do you have one?
Speaker 7 (54:06):
No that that's not really that's not my fortet.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
No, all right, I think the Broadway producer said to
the dispensary butt tender, do you have something that's gonna
make me feel like I'm in a chorus loan and
I'm twenty years old kicking my I can kick this
high and the bud tenders, Well, let me think about it,
(54:29):
farmer says, do you have anything that's gonna put me
in the relaxed state I am when I'm in my
cornfield and the wind is blowing and the breezes and
I want to feel that way and the buttender's shore.
We could hook you up there, And then the Rabbi says,
I'm just looking to get a little higher. I don't
(54:54):
know that's the best I could do. I like, thank
you for spending your time with us today on just
saying now. This has been an enlightening conversation touching on
the challenges, opportunities, and evolving cultural connections surrounding the cannabis industry.
(55:15):
Lu to recap some key takeaways from today's discussion. First,
we explored the significant barriers that federal illegality presents to
cannabis entrepreneurs and operators who are trying to function legally
in this legally gray space, including limited access to banking
(55:36):
and the burdens of HUX provisions like two ade. As
Alan highlighted, these challenges demand creativity, resilience, and willingness to
take on risk that other industries don't face. Yet, as
we discuss, for those who persevere, there is the potential
(55:56):
to shape and industry that is still in its infant
and create lasting change. We also dove into the operational
challenges of owning a vertically integrated dispensary and sustainable farming.
Thanks to SETS Insights, we learned that cannabis is about
more than consumption. It's about storytelling, community and creating safe
(56:21):
and responsible products that reflect care and intention. SETS artisanal
approach mirrors the sophistication of fine lines and Spirits, illustrating
that cannabis extends beyond medicinal use and could hold a
place in both everyday life and even special celebrations. Rabbi
(56:44):
Coen brought us a unique perspective on Kosher certified cannabis,
explaining its importance for inclusivity and its role in broadening
the accessibility of cannabis products beyond faith based communities. Kosher
certification represents on gold standard for cleanliness, quality and integrity,
(57:04):
and cultivation and production. We talked about the connection to
Hanaka traditions and the question of whether cannabis can facilitate
deeper spiritual pathways. Who was both fascinating and thought provoking.
As we look forward at the future of cannabis, it's
clear that this industry stands at crossroads, whether it's crafting
(57:29):
thoughtful regulations, advocating for normalization and legalization, or simply changing
the way people think about cannabis. The decisions we make
now they're going to have ripple effects for generations. To
our listeners, remember, cannabis is not just a product. It's
(57:52):
a movement, guys, a culture, and for many, a lifeline.
The stories we share today are proof of the diverse
voices working tirelessly to navigate this complex industry and ensure
it thrives responsibly. Finally, a heartfelt thank you to our guests,
(58:17):
Alan Shore for your entrepreneurial wisdom, Seth Rutherford for your
passion for sustainable agriculture and a responsible Premium Award winning dispensary.
Rabbi Yakov Cohen for your inspiring perspective on inclusivity and tradition,
(58:39):
especially as the story of Hanukkah inspires in us. All
perseverance in the face of adversity. Thank you for tuning
in to Just Say No on KCA Radio ten fifty
am one oh six point five FM. Let's continue to
rethink cannabis together. Until next time, I'm your oldest Maria Galli.
(59:00):
Stay curious, Stay informed, stay Festive and just Say No
with the K and A W K and ow Happy Holidays,
Everybody Happy, and say stay it, Let It Glow. Just
Say No is a green Bee Life presentation airing live
weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm Pacific
(59:24):
on KCA Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes are
on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Speaker, and most third
party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out on GBLTV,
on Greenbee Life YouTube and Rumble. To follow us our
(59:50):
Instagram and Facebook is at just Say No Radio. To
apply to be a guest on the show or for sponsor,
ship and advertising opportunities, go to greenbelife dot com, forward
slash just Say No.
Hello again and welcome to Just Say No, where we
spotlight the innovators behind cannabis's news, products and the groundbreaking
ideas driving the legal cannabis movement with some of the
smartest minds in the industry. Thank you for tuning in.
I'm your host Maria Calabrese on KCAA Radio ten fifty
(00:26):
am one oh six point five FM. I'm honored, I'm
privileged to be joined today by an incredible panel of
voices that are as lively as they are diverse. Alan
Shore is an entrepreneur, cannabis investor, and multiple Tony Award
winning Broadway producer who brings his expertise from a variety
(00:48):
of industries to the cannabis space. Zeth Rutherford is the
founder of Waterworks, providing a sustainable water management system to
the island of Nantucket, and owner operator of an award
winning dispensary in Massachusetts. Seth joins us with roots in
agriculture since childhood and Rabbi Yakov Cohen. Rabbi Cohen is
(01:13):
the founder of Whole Kosher Services and the president of
Returning Light, a nonprofit dedicated to the study of Torah
and Kabbala. He will share insights into the intersection of faith, tradition,
and kosher certified cannabis. Together, we'll dive into some of
the most pressing topics shaping the cannabis landscape, including what
(01:37):
it really takes to start a cannabis business given the
threats and challenges of operating legally in a federally illegal
space green rush or bus, and most importantly, in the
spirit of the holiday season, we'll explore lessons and perseverance
learned from the story of Hanukkah and the concept of
(01:58):
kosher cannabis, what it means to be kosher certified cannabis.
So get cozy, but not too cozy if you're driving,
and get ready to find out what happens when a
Broadway producer, or a rabbi and a farmer walk into
a dispensary. Because the rules and regulations we establish now
at the crossroads of federal legalization will shape the future
(02:21):
of cannabis for generations to come. So let's dig in
and explore just what's at stake.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars, and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars
each and every year.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I can see so much.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Ym Moroses, Yon Moroses, I'm a better fie who has
only begon taking me a while to get it, had
to live and cry to appreciate your life and what
(03:25):
you give. His words, when you're holding na, when you
hold me so close, someone better and under your skill.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Welcome everyone today's show. I'm looking forward to exploring today's
topics through the lens of innovation, resilience, and Honikah. In Hebrew,
Honikah means dedication, and the holiday celebrates the rededication of
the Temple in Jerusalem in the second century BC, after
a small, but determined and blessed group of Jewish fighters
(03:56):
liberated it from occupying forces. So what does this to
do with cannabis, you're probably wondering. Well, despite its legalization
in most states, cannabis remains federally classified as a Schedule
one drug, a designation the falsely, and I might add,
recklessly equates it with dangerous substances like LSD or heroin.
(04:19):
Do you to have no medical value and a high
potential for abuse? Yeah. This contradiction creates unique challenges for
the plant entrepreneurs, consumers and advocates forcing their very existence.
They're very survival against significant odds that affect us. All.
(04:42):
I've asked our panel to join us today. I wanted
to start with Alan Shore as an entrepreneur in the
space to give us an overview of the challenges of
starting a cannabis business in today's legal landscape. Welcome Alan,
So good to see you again.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Alan, It's nice to see you.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Also, thank you, thank you for joining us. You're going
to have great insights. But before diving in, I like
you to tell our listeners a little bit about your
entrepreneurial background in your own words, I.
Speaker 5 (05:13):
Didn't realize I was an entrepreneur until somebody told me
I was.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
I was always trying to do things differently, and from
the time that I really went to left college, you know, graduated,
until to the rest of my life, I always thought
there are better ways to do things, and the people
that I was working for doing other things. I thought, well,
(05:40):
I'll try it my way. And then somebody said, well,
you're really an entrepreneur, and I said, okay, well, if
that's what you want to call me. So my background
was in music, theater and something that has nothing to
do with music and theater, which is accounting and finance.
But believe it or not, they do go together. And
as a result of at what I've been able to
(06:01):
do is employ my skills from an accounting and from
a financial background to help create different companies in the
financial services world now the cannabis world. And believe it
or not, the accounting and financial skills that I've acquired
over the years has really helped me in being a
(06:24):
producer in the theater world because it's really about numbers,
and part of that is making sure that you stay
with the budget, that the budget's correct and everything has
done the right way.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
If you've never had the pleasure of being in Woody
Allen's office in New York, over his desk, he has
a sign that says it's show business, right, not show show,
So you are spot on. How do you connect these
skills to this cannabis industry.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
The same way you would connect the skills to any industry.
Being in the financial services world, it's one of the
most highly regulated, least I thought highly regulated industries in
the world. You've got multiple agencies, governmental, non governmental agencies
are always looking over your shoulder. You've got all kinds
of compliance issues that you have to adhere to. So
(07:21):
the cannabis business is similar to the fact that it's regulated.
You've got compliance issues, you've got the same financial concerns
of any other business. So the skill set that a person,
any person might have in running or starting or managing
a business, can be employed and can be an entrepreneur
(07:42):
in any kind of business, including the cannabis business. And
without that skill set, it's going to be very challenging
for anyone to be successful really in any business. And
part of that, and the most important part of that,
which is true again for any kind of business, surrounding
yourself with people that are better than you, that know
(08:04):
more than you, and they're specific whatever it is that
they do, whether it's growing or in the cannabis business
or whostsale, whatever it happens to be, and letting them
take the ball, let their run with it. If they
make a mistake, they make a mistake, but certainly let
them do the things that they do best and stay
out of their way so that everybody stays in their
(08:25):
own lane. And if you allow that to happen, the
chance of success are greater than if you try to
step into somebody else's position or somebody else's lane.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Well before I dive deep in with you into advice
for starting a cannabis business. Speaking of surrounding yourself with
people smarter than you, I am surrounded by it's an
embarrassment of riches. So I just want to bring in
next the rabbi to tell a little bit of about
(09:00):
his background in his own words, and what he asked
to do with cannabis, and then we'll bring Seth in,
and then we'll dive into the interview with my first
question to Alan, Rabbi, welcome.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
Great to be here, very special.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
To have you here because I understand you were in Israel. Yes,
I'd love to have you tell us a little bit
about yourself and your own words.
Speaker 6 (09:26):
Okay, quickly, you know, I was not always like many
people were, not a rabbi before the rebbe. I wasn't
raised religious. I was raised very secular. I didn't become
religious until I went to Israel when I was nineteen
years old, and then I was in a rabbinical school
and spent nineteen years there and then got married, raised
(09:48):
a family, started a family, and then moved to to Texas.
So and that's when I got involved in being involved
in kosher food and kosher services, and of course it
branched out. And the quick background story is I had
a son who was diagnosed as having brain cancer. He
(10:13):
did pass away after a year and a half, but
during that time he when he had a relapse, we
were introduced into cannabis. I had already been doing kosher
food production and giving kosher certification to various other industries,
but here was the cannabis industry. My son was. I
(10:36):
was trying to give him cannabis in terms of all
of the research that was done. And so my father
and some friends says, why don't you go and work
and see about making cannabis kosher because this and it
has such medicinal properties. People need it. People are going
to be looking for it, and they'll be much more
(10:56):
comfortable if it's kosher. So that's when I reached out
to was what we spoke Tracy Ryan of Cana Kids
other places in California. I think that's where it started
first and started to make very many products kosher, offering
kosher services until I and then of course I was
(11:17):
introduced to two five to three organic on the on
the East Coast. Yeah, that was great man. Yeah, so
you know, I was really excited to go there and
help them out in terms of getting their kosher certification.
It was a really a lot of fun. It's such
an awesome dispensary, a great place to visit, to drive there,
(11:41):
it's just amazing. So and I always enjoy going and
making my usual routine kosher visits.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Oh, that's amazing, amazing. My condolences for your son, and
my hats off to you for when western medicine doesn't
have a solution for going beyond. I can't even imagine
as a parent, first of all, going through something like that,
(12:12):
Second of all, having to make the decision to try
cannabis and to have gotten to that point to have
to do that.
Speaker 6 (12:23):
And it was very experimental, like nobody knew really knew
what was going on.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Then, right, you mentioned canna kids, Josh and Tracy Ryan.
They're just an amazing, amazing couple, And of course they're
little girl Sophie who was afflicted with a brain tumor,
and you know, back then, I mean what a mom
will do for their child. Tracy actually was able to
(12:50):
get Cedar Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles to give her
a piece of her two year old's brain tissue, and
she transported it herself and in iglu cooler on a
plane to Israel. Could you just tell us quickly before
we bring in the next smart one here smarter than
all of us, Seth, just tell us a little bit
(13:12):
about the difference in how Israel approaches medical Malwana and Malawana.
In the United States.
Speaker 6 (13:20):
It is stricter, it's harder to get a prescription, it's
only medicinal, and have a very tight knit on the
production where it flows and things like that. You know,
it's not so easy you could just walk into a dispensary.
It's it's you know, so there are much a few
more hoops to go through in order to get the medicine.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yes, the hoops aside. It is medically available and has
been for decades. So what they have on the United
States and the rest of the world is a jump
on the research. In fact, it was yeah, so they
haven't had that optioncle or burden. So they were.
Speaker 6 (14:03):
When we were in Texas with our son Alisha, we
were debating whether to go to California or Israel, because
Israel had the research, but we wouldn't be able to
access it if we were. Oh, so we went, We
opted to go to California.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yes, So it's you know, legalization. It impacts so many
people from so many different walks of life in so
many different ways.
Speaker 6 (14:29):
We're all, we're all, we're trying to crawl out of
the stigma. You know, we're trying to help people crawl
out of the stigma, which is really what I'm about,
you know, because to make it available and offer it
to be kosher, you know, medicinal wise. You know, still
a lot of people in my circles are still very
much against it, even though it's inedible, even though it's
(14:52):
you know, medicinal. They'll let it, but usually buy and large,
you know, they still have that stigma there.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
We've got him out and to climb. But I'm glad
we're doing it.
Speaker 6 (15:05):
The Maccabees are about.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Right, that's right, And I'm glad against the big Fed
that's right.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
South. I have I have a question for the.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Rabbi Okay, sorry, set Oh my goodness, guy Alan, When.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
Moses went up to Mount Sinai and the burning bush,
what was that bush made of?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
And where he saw the Oh my goodness, when the.
Speaker 6 (15:35):
God Alaska, oh.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
A Alan, when the god spoke, there was smoke. So
absolutely so set Set. You have your roots is having
been working on a farm since the age of eleven
years old. Somehow the labor laws that was legal. But
(16:00):
all right, don't get me started. So and you have
this background and knowledge and sustainable agriculture. You're the founder
of water Works, having come up with a water management
system to serve as islands like the island of Nantucket.
And you are a co owner and operator of one
(16:23):
of Massachusetts's most premier award winning pharmacies, two five to
three pharmacy. That's pharmacy with an F. So tell us
a little bit about yourself and two five three pharmacy.
And Allen, I want you taking notes because we're going
to do cannabis the musical.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
Okay, well, we actually did something like that called Flight
over Sunset a few years ago that just didn't work.
But it was it wasn't cannabis, it was other drugs.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
All right.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Start by thank you for having me. I very much
appreciate your time and being able to join. I'm a
Massachusetts resident born and raised in Western mass and Western
mass you know as you, as you stated, is really
all about agriculture here. I live here right here in
Hadley and Hadley mass is you know, has has I
(17:22):
think the second best top soil in the world behind
San Joaquin Valley in California. And I ended up marrying
into a farming family as well, farming anything from tobacco
to asparagus to corn. And you know, they do have
some cattle kicking around for all the excess you know,
vegetables that they don't sell.
Speaker 7 (17:38):
And so when.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
I was twenty one, I had an opportunity to move
down to Nantucket with my partner.
Speaker 7 (17:44):
So, you know, Joe and I moved down to Nantucket
and started water works.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
And we're very fortunate to move to a place like
Nantucket and have an end and you know, work for
some probably you know, some of the the wealthiest people
in the world that really care about their landscapes and
care about their homes. And really gave myself an education there,
just you know, learning, you know, learning all the different
aspects of you know, building sustainable landscapes.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
I was, I was, I was elected to what was
called the Article sixty eight board.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
What the Article sixty eight board was we were trying
to find a way to limit the nitrogen and phosphorus
use on Nantucket so that we would not pollute our estuaries.
Speaker 7 (18:21):
And we and through.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
That board, we we developed a b MP which is
the best management practice and currently I believe it's still
is the strictest in the state on nitrogen use. And
we lived with the nitrogen use on Nantucket to three
pounds per thousand and so that we really try to educate,
you know, landscapers and the tradesmen and women, you know,
how to properly apply fertilizers so that you are not
(18:46):
you You're you're keeping a healthy landscape, but you're not
damaging you know, the environment around you.
Speaker 7 (18:51):
And you know, cannabis was always you know, I always
use it.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
I'm a very energetic individual and I always use cannabis
as a way to calm down, in a way to
just melow myself out. And I've always had a real
passion for it. And from there, you know, in two
thousand and eight came around, we really had a passion
to get into it.
Speaker 7 (19:12):
You know, we're builders, we're in the landscape trade.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
We understand you know, plant water maintenance, and we ended
up you know, finding very fortunate enough to find Out
and Marsha as partners. And I think that's one of
the really things that separates two five three is the
partnership that we were able to bring together because we
were able to bring professionals from all different you know,
walks of life, lawyers, financial people, construction people, landscape people,
(19:41):
and really kind of bring everyone together to run a
very complex industry that doesn't have data, you know.
Speaker 7 (19:48):
To look up and to see what to do.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
It's really something that you know, you have to really
make good decisions and see them through and pivot on
a dime if the decisions that you made seem to
be going in the wrong direction. And so you know,
we ended up partnering Chris and i A partnered with
Alan and Marsha and we built their own facility. We
operate our own facility. So, you know, a very unique company,
(20:12):
and we really worry about quality. Worry about bringing a
quality product to the table for customers, something that a
customer could find relief in whatever.
Speaker 7 (20:21):
They're looking for.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, I'm you're in a perfect spot when to segue
from quality. We're twenty minutes into the show and in
California it is for twenty so every show at four twenty,
we have a segment called quick Hits. So We're going
to get a quick hit where I'm going to ask
(20:43):
the Rabbi to drop a knowledge bomb for us. And
the quick hit that I'm going to ask him is, Rabbi,
what is kosher aims and how does it become certified?
Speaker 6 (20:59):
So you know, talk about what kosher is. First of all,
you have to understand, kosher does not mean blessed by
the Rabbi. Okay, there's a serious laws, the criteria that
comes from the Five Books of Moses, covering an entire
spectrum of different foods, everything from meat to dairy, fish, fowl, bugs,
(21:22):
and grapes. So all of these different levels of food
or areas of food have different criteria that meets kosher standards.
Like your animal needs two signs to be a kosher animal, right, Alan,
you know which two signs those are.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
It has to its cud and it has to have
its cud and have a clooned hoof.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, ing thing we should rest for the knowledge.
Speaker 6 (21:52):
Bar the day.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Okay, I came from a very religious home and became
secular later.
Speaker 6 (22:01):
Yeah, so that's an animal has to have those signs
and even if it has those signs and it's not
properly ritually slaughtered, it's not kosher. So if if cow
was not killed in the ritual slaughterway, even though it's
a kosher animal. So anything of that cow or any
derivative of that which gets into cannabis because of a gelatin.
(22:24):
For the most of the industry uses gelatin either from
a pig or cow, that not kosher. That to make
their gummies. Okay, of course many are making from pectin.
That's a different story. Well, let's say dairy, we don't
mix milk and meat. You know, we have an issue
of bugs. Now, just to zero win on cannabis. The
(22:46):
plant itself, like any other plant or vegetable, has no
problems with being kosher, like an apple or a banana.
The only issues with certain vegetables or fruits is a
predominance of insects because we're not allowed to eat a bug.
According to the Torah. We break six five or five
commandments if we eat a bug. Okay, and if you
(23:11):
know there's bugs in there, you gotta wash it and
check it before you eat it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
They were a friend of green bee.
Speaker 6 (23:18):
Yeah, green Bee. I was wondering was it a bee
that's green or the okay, so the plants themselves. I
did go to Mendocina. We gave a Kosher certificate to
a farm there. I did check there and they have
these very little insects called thrips in the buds talk
(23:40):
about the flower tops. So I asked a very big
rabbi about it, and he says, well, because most of
the people are burning it because they're smoking it, so
the bugs are getting burned. So there's no problem of
the bugs if they're eating it like in a salad,
which some people I've been described.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
In raw yes, raw form, so then you have an issue.
Speaker 6 (24:04):
It has to be cleaned of bugs and don't even
know if it can be because of the stickiness of it.
So therefore, predominantly mostly so the flower tops really don't
really need a Kosher certification, but it helps because of marketing,
because don't forget, kosher is not just for religious Jews.
(24:24):
Kosher Kosher could extend to Muslims, vegetarians, vagans, and health
conscientious people looking for that. There's a third set of
eyes looking on this product to guarantee that it's safe, okay.
So that's why people if in a grocery store, sixty
percent of the things in the grocery store are have
(24:45):
a Kosher symbol on it. Sixty percent of the items
in any grocery store now in the United States, and
people will always choose an item with a Kosher symbol
over an item without a kocher stole because they know
there was another pair of eyes.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
It's a mark, it's a gold standard. It's a gold standard.
Speaker 6 (25:03):
Correct, So then yes, absolutely so then when you now
moving on past the bug So then when you process
the bugs into oil, so then you get into solvents
and things that come in contact with the plant. So
you have to make sure those solvents are coming from
kosher sources. The biggest solvent that's used most likely today
(25:24):
is is ethanol. Now ethanol, everybody will instantly think it's
it's corn, it's weed. It's not necessarily. There are ethanols
that are made from grapes, which present a kosher issue
because we have a very strict rule about our grapes.
Even grape juice, it has to be squeezed from an
(25:44):
observant jew until it's bottled. For sure, wine because we
use it in rituals all the time. The rabbis made
very strict decrees that it has to be a Jewish wine.
So ethanol could be made from grapes. Ethanol could also
be made from way, which is a cheese, which is
also a big, huge kosher issue. So we have to
(26:04):
make sure that the ethanol or any solvents that are
used in order to turn to make the oils have
to come from kosher sources. And then when you go
onto that, let's say you're when you're making your intivals,
like any other kosher material, all the materials have to
be kosher. The chocolate, the sugar, the flavorings, the gummies,
the pectin, all of those items have to meet certain
(26:27):
certain specific Kosher criteria in order to be kosher. Okay. So,
and then there's a course to maintain the equipment. So
that's the kosher industry in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Oh, it's fascinating. And what's really fascinating is I'm going
to just start a movement that everyone in Congress, everyone
in normal decision makers have to get bar mitz foot because.
Speaker 8 (26:52):
You guys were able to work this out with Jewish law,
but America I don't know, So thank.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
You my goodness, say it can there it can, there's
always a solution, which brings me to the cannabis Running
a cannabis business. Alan, The cannabis industry is estimated to
employ over a half a million people right. It includes
approximately twelve thousand licensed retail locations. It's estimated to earn
(27:28):
thirty billion dollars a year, more than the Baseball League,
National Football League, and NBA combined. Yeah, it remains classified
as a Schedule one substance, presenting passive challenges that, like
you said, startups and other industries aren't faced with. So
(27:51):
my question to you is, given the current legal landscape
and the challenges that they present to running cannabis business,
who is making all the money? Is anybody making any money?
And what inspired you to enter this space?
Speaker 5 (28:08):
All right? So the first question is really easy to answer.
Who's making all the money the state? For with the
tax that the Feds, they're making all the money because
they're they're taxing cannabis companies on income that they don't
really have, and the tax that cannabis companies have to
(28:33):
pay is different than any other industry in the United States.
So that's that's So that's the easy answer to your question.
What's what inspired. The question was what inspired me to
do this? Yes, well, not understanding what the federal regulators
were going to taxes on, and the idea that with
(28:58):
any business, if you can run it efficiently and you
can mitigate the tax issues that you can, and you
have good partners and you know what you're doing, then
you can you can make it work despite the tax burden.
So that that's really what it was, because I had
no clue, I mean, not a sintilla of an idea
(29:19):
of cannabis up until the time I met Seth and Chris.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Nothing, none of us did. I I can't tell you
how many people in the state of California didn't vote
for League Station or say they wish they hadn't.
Speaker 5 (29:35):
Yeah, So it's you know, it's a business just like
show business, or the or the legal business, or the
broad you know, it's the entertainment business in general, and
it all has its quirks. But the cannabis. Cannabis business
is probably, at least in Massachusetts, the most regulated industry
in the entire state, with the highest burden of taxation.
(29:58):
And that's just it's not basically not fair.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
And I thought California was higher.
Speaker 5 (30:06):
I don't I don't think so. I think we're talking
about federal taxes and federal state feder Wait.
Speaker 6 (30:14):
A minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute, Federal schedule one, correct,
and yet they're right able to tax it.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
Excuse me, isn't it.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
Considered to be federally what? What? What group group one
or level one?
Speaker 5 (30:29):
Yeah? Right, yeah, so it doesn't allow you to take
deductions for in the ordinary course of business. Without getting
too technical, INNES Section one sixty two ordinary business expenses
that every other business is able to take, accelerated appreciation
and other things that businesses are entitled to, and therefore
(30:51):
you're paying tax on literally phantom income. And that's just yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Two eighty regionated in nineteen eighty one during the Reagan administration.
I'll tell you, Rabbi and Seth, I know Alan, you
know this. I'm not sure if you do, set But
it came about when a convicted cocaine trafficker argued in
court that he should be allowed to deduct his legitimate
business expenses, the zip ties for his cocaine trafficking, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera,
(31:22):
And despite his business being illegal, he was able to
deduct business expenses. So two eighty eight came in response
to that, Congress established the rule which prohibits anyone involved
in trafficking controlled substances from deducting their business expenses. And
(31:45):
as long as cannabis is on that list of controlled substances,
it can't deduct any of its expenses such as becoming certified, kosher,
storage and transportation, banking, franchise fees, packaging, marketing, none of
it is tax deduct dimetric bills. There you go, So
(32:06):
I could speak for I think a legal cannabis operator
could face a federal tax rate of around seventy percent
in addition to the state and local taxes. And on
top of this, in Los Angeles there's a five percent
excise tax.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
So as the analogy there, you know, if you're running
a retail store, and if you did a million dollars
a year in business, and a half a million dollars
was the product that that retail store bought to resell,
that retail store would pay tax on a half a
million dollars. The only thing you would be able to
duct is the product you bought, so you would you
would pay tax on your labor. You're parking, you know,
(32:46):
your your snow plowing anything above and beyond. And so
you know, in the early days when the margins were high,
and I'm talking the early days of Massachusetts when we
opened in nineteen margins were high. There wasn't a lot
of retail stores. We were able to pull and put
poll profits. As this industry continues to condense and get saturated,
(33:07):
it's really become catastrophic for companies. And you know, they're
just not able to survive on margins because you need
exponential margins to continue to pay The federal government told
you he was smart.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Is it still getting saturated the market in your opinion?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Well, I think, you know, I mean, I mean, the
answer to that is I stutter a little bit. I
think we're hopefully on the verge of coming the other way.
You know, we we were down to like four dollars
and fifty cents a gram on the retail side. And
when we get down to four dollars a gram, producers
can't produce it for two dollars a gram and say live.
(33:47):
And so when I'm talking to retail at four fifty,
so when the retail's four and these retail stores are keystoning,
we're very close to the bottom if we're not there yet.
And just in the last month we've seen some very
big operators closed their doors in Massachusetts, and I think
that that's going to continue. And so, you know, to
get back to you know, what Alman was saying about cannabis.
(34:09):
You know how how it's how it's very unique, can't
you know, Instead of you know a lot of businesses
where you're you're looking to increase revenues, in cannabis, you're
looking to reduce costs. You run that business on cost
base and you don't take risks of costs are associated
due to the taxes because those costs turn into income
(34:30):
to you and you have to pay more phantom income
and so it's a very difficult business. So it's really
a lean and mean.
Speaker 7 (34:38):
Business model to stay alive and debt.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Like I say, you know, people ask, well, how do
you survive in cannabis? And it's factious, right, but it's like, well,
don't write a check because every check you write his
income to you, even though you're giving it to someone else. Okay,
So it's you know, it's really you know, it's it's
kind of the you know, it's as you really have
to be very cognitive of of how you operate rate
and you know at two five three, we've always taken
(35:03):
the approach where we don't have a huge wholesale department
and we don't kind of have a ton of marketing
because a lot of companies get themselves in trouble where
they they spend more to make less, and you really
have to watch your bottom line and be conservative and
concentrate on yourself.
Speaker 6 (35:22):
You should have a blessing. You should have a blessing
and continued blessing for continued success and growth.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Well Allen and Seth, and even with the rabbis blessing,
you gave the best advice. You have to go low
and slow. You have to be leaning mean, you have
to be able to survive legalization. And it's really a
conundrum because you don't have access to financing that other
(35:51):
startups have. Many financial institutions aren't going to want to
touch it if the government's deeming it illegal.
Speaker 6 (36:00):
I'll give you.
Speaker 5 (36:00):
An example of how bad it is. I had an
American Airlines abandoned City Bank card and I got about
a year and a half ago, I got a notice
of them saying we've canceled your card, and I said,
why and they said, because you own an interest in
a cannabis company and it's federally illegal. I said, oh.
(36:23):
At the same time, they're also city bank banks the
State of New York's cannabis business. So it's like, okay, well,
why can you do one or not the other. But
that's how bad it's become at.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Times it is. And you know, necessity is the mother
of invention. So anyone who can survive this should be
on the cover of Fortune five hundred. I mean, it's
going to take minds as bright as this panel, and
it never hurts that the Rabbi's blessing. But all these
(36:55):
entrepreneurs that jumped in believing, hey, this is going to
be the next silicon, it's the next big giant among
growth industries. Guys. It's a green revolution, not a green rush.
So if you're thinking of going into it, be prepared
to join the revolution.
Speaker 5 (37:15):
Well, I'll go one step further, Maria. Unless you're at
least in Massachusetts, unless you're vertically integrated, you cannot make money, period.
It's just impossible.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Can you explain to our listeners what a vertically integrated
license means?
Speaker 5 (37:32):
I can now because Seth taught me so I'm gonna
let Seth my teacher explain it better than me.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
So a vertically integrated facility, a vertically integrated means that
you do everything yourself, where you have your own cultivation, manufacturing,
and your retail outlets. And so it's really in Massachusetts,
it's really coming down to the verticals are able to
you know, weather this storm much easier than standalone standalone retailers.
(38:00):
If they're at a very good location, they'll do okay.
Standalone cultivators and standalone manufacturers, unfortunately, are taking a.
Speaker 7 (38:09):
Beating right now.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
And it's really not fair because the wholesale rates, like
I explained before, are so bad at four dollars and
you know, at two dollars and twenty five cents if
you want to, if you want to look at it
that way, they're they're virtually not making anything. And and
a lot of these and a lot of the small
companies are mom and pop companies like two five to
three that have invested everything they've had to get into this,
(38:32):
and you know, there a lot of them are tied
to all sorts of leases and personal guarantees and it's
in you know, and another really unfortunate fact in the
cannabis industry is there is no bankruptcy.
Speaker 7 (38:43):
You go, you go into receivership and you lose everything
you own.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
And and I think that's why a lot of people
hang on longer than one might think they would.
Speaker 7 (38:53):
But it's you know, it's it's it's definitely not all
roses behind the scenes. And the states, the state always
in the federal government always you know, puts out how
much sale, how many so, how much sales there are,
but it really doesn't equate to the to the profits
behind the scenes.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Wow. And I'd like to just move on before turning
to the strength that we can glean from the story
of Hanukkah'd like to move on to how all of
these federal inaction, all the competing state regulatory down to
the local level, all the different federal agencies commission to
(39:32):
protect consumers, How all of this regulatory game of pypon
effects innovation and at the end of the day, the
consumer getting quality, let alone kosher certified cannabis. What's the
impact that this is going to have.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Well, I think that's probably the same for any industry.
As you know, desperate times or take people take desperate measures.
And so I think that's really the unfortunate fact. And
you know, people need to stay alive, they need to eat,
they need to feed their family.
Speaker 7 (40:05):
And you know, when when when when when When.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
You get into a situation like that, you know you
you probably at times aren't putting out the best products
due to you know, do those type of reasons.
Speaker 7 (40:14):
So it's very unfortunate.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
I think anytime you have an affluent business, you know,
you know, those type of things are much easier to accomplish.
Speaker 7 (40:22):
And so you know.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
It's it's it's it's a it's it's unfortunate where where
where we are right now, as people are just trying
to survive, you know, for two five three, you know,
we don't break any we don't try to break any
rules or break any rules, and we really just try
to stick with quality because as hard as it is
to continue to stay on that line, eventually it will
(40:46):
pay off. But it's just it's a grind and you know,
we're edging our name into a piece of stone right now,
and we're definitely not done yet. But you know, if
you do it right, and you continue to do it right,
you will there will be light at thee nothing last forever.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yes, and if you have regulations that facilitate and energize
and promote your being able to do it right. Here's
a not so fun fact, Rabbi, you were talking about
Los Angeles. There are more weed stores in LA than Starbucks,
but more than seventy percent of the LA dispensaries are illegal.
Speaker 6 (41:27):
Amazing, and there's no crackdown on them.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
No crackdown. That's with all the taxes that the legal
guys are paying. Their question is where is the enforcement?
Where are those tax dollars going? They're not going into
a forcement, And it's I want to try to get
Mayor bass on and speak and just regulators to We're
(41:52):
trying to understand why the police I'm sorry, turn a
blind I and not to mention it's it's it explains
why huge amount of the biggest legal cannabis companies valued
it up to three billion dollars recently filed for bankruptcy.
Speaker 6 (42:16):
Is there any movements out there as far as let's say,
like fixing the regulations, deregulating or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
On the National Cannabis Industry Association which could use support.
It is the National Cannabis Industry Association out of Washington, DC,
but they have a strong presence in Los Angeles. They're trying,
but they have their lobbyists. The multi state operators have
their own lobbyists, and the industry is splintered. So finding
(42:52):
guys like Seth and Allen in yourself who have an
interest in high quality premium up to the gold standard
of kosher cannabis, heart has.
Speaker 6 (43:03):
To be in it your heart. The heart has to be.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
That's right, it does. Yeah, So speaking of heart, Rabbi,
the story behind kosher cannabis a lot of heart. I'm
sorry it came to you through such a tragedy with
your son, but can you talk to us about the
(43:29):
story of cannabis and maybe some lessons that people in
the cannabis industry.
Speaker 6 (43:34):
One very, you know, we had a very there's a
very big Hasidic grab I lived about two hundred years ago.
He was two hundred and fifty years ago. He's called
the Balishem Toove. He was like a really big innovator
in terms of Jewish practice. He completely just gave an
in depth way that how Judaism can be approached and
(43:55):
everybody can have a direct personal relationship with God. And
he had one of his followers was also a tremendous scholar,
and he said this about an interesting question that maybe
people that might have contemplated, was if you look in
the world and most of the medicines of the world
(44:15):
they come from herbs, correct, would you.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
Say, absolutely absolutely listen to.
Speaker 6 (44:21):
This, Where does that come from? Or why is that so? Okay?
So here's a little story. On the third day of creation.
You know that God created the world in six days,
rested on the seventh and the third day of creation.
God created the trees and the plants and the grasses
(44:45):
d three day three he created dry land and oceans,
and then he created the trees with bearing fruit and grasses.
Now listen to this. Follow me, follow me. He told
the trees, you guys, cannot the mango. Three does not
tango with the avocado. Right, No grafting, no mixing, no blending.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Very woke.
Speaker 6 (45:12):
No, he wants he wants a mango to be a
pure mango and an avocado to be a pure avocado.
We don't want mango avocado.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Okay, all right, Man came.
Speaker 6 (45:24):
And came and they started me. Anyways, the trees were
told not to mix the grasses. He didn't say anything
to oh oh, creator.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Didn't tell him, are you serious?
Speaker 6 (45:36):
And the grasses are left with this, what are we
supposed to do? Right? And so they made this kind
of a fiori argument, this kind of logical syllogism argument.
They say, well, if trees which are normally separate, they
don't really get grow close to each other. And they
(45:58):
were told not to mix, so us grasses, which were
all over the place all the more so we shouldn't mix. Okay,
So they made this syllogism and conclusion. They had a
little board meeting, right, they had a hall in favor, okay,
and they all agreed we're not gonna mix. So Hashen says,
(46:20):
oh my gosh, you guys came up with that all
by yourself. Okay. And because you guys came up with
that all by yourself, I am now going to give
you the gift of healing. There's much more in a
way to explain it, but I'm gonna explain it right
just enough for them. So therefore God bestowed upon all
(46:42):
the grass as and herbs the gift of healing. Now,
the interesting thing is there's this one grass that got
a bad wrap, poor little cannabis. The stone, the stone
that was cast away by the builders becomes the corners stone.
That's the rule. The grass that was cast away by
(47:05):
the builders becomes the cornerstone. So things that things were.
Nobody would consider that cannabis would have medicinal purposes. But
it has I think greater medicinal purposes than ever. Right,
So why.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
It's such a tragedy that it's trapped in Schedule one
because it's.
Speaker 6 (47:24):
Getting its way, it's finding its way here. Listen, who
would ever have thought thirty years ago that this would
such a thing would occur when California became legal. It
was like a huge like what who would ever think? Right?
It had a bad rap, right Anslinger? Right? Was it?
J Paul Getty? Who has it? Forgot? Who was rant Hurst?
(47:47):
William Randolph Hearst. They gave it a bad rap, right,
But you know, the stone that was cast away by
the builders becomes the cornerstone. So you So those who
will hang on with heart with lafe like the mag
Kabes did. They had to fight against the Greeks were
much more greater and much more numerous. If you want
to talk about hanakah okay, they had to have to
(48:08):
have your heart has to be in it. You have
to be coming with a mission of you know, it
helps a lot of people. And that's why I got
into the kosher, to make it kosher. A lot of
people get helped. It helps a lot of people. I
get calls emails all the time. Where can I find it?
Where I'm here? Where can I get it? So it's
(48:28):
it's it's a mitzvah. If it's a mitzvah and you're
certain and there's a higher reason, it gives us the
strength to go on right seth alan, You should be
blessed to the strength to continue and be and God
will grant you that strength and you'll continue to be
successful to hold on. There were two places in Massachusetts
(48:51):
which I was giving kosher certification to close down. They
couldn't hold it, like you said, closing their doors on.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
About you talked about the medicinal mitzvah. Do you think
cannabists can open up spiritual pathways? You know you talk
about the light from above, life from below, and then
within in the coach.
Speaker 6 (49:14):
I have a question, and I don't I don't have
an answer for you, but I have a question. All
rabbis are supposed to answer questions with questions. Right, yes, right,
isn't that the rule?
Speaker 1 (49:24):
It's Socratic method. Yes, Well, you.
Speaker 6 (49:27):
Know, if it has medicinal, why would I Shem make it?
Why would God make it psychoactive?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Ah?
Speaker 6 (49:37):
You know, if it has to have a medicine and
it's going to relieve pain or whatever, aches or whatever,
help people sleep, why does that have to happen? So,
you know, I think in the back of my head
and I'm just thinking out loud. You know, we have
to start the world has to start thinking differently, and
(49:58):
sometimes people are so stuck and their patterns of thinking,
which goes into my book. My book has to do
with how our thoughts create angels.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Oh, congratulations, congratulations.
Speaker 6 (50:09):
And it's called it's called the Jewish Guide to Manifesting.
That's the name of the book, Jewish Guide to Manifesting. Right, So,
our patterns of thinking sometimes need to shift, wouldn't you agree?
Sometimes if you're stuck in a problem, you need to
see it from a different angle on, don't you see
it from a different perception?
Speaker 1 (50:29):
That's the whole point of the title of this show.
It used to be on the war on drugs, just
say no. And oh, and I'm trying to say just
say no. Know, there's a doctor Mentesh Gern. He's in
Robin Carhart Harris's lab at uc San Francisco. He was
on episode three and he was there studying the effects
(50:51):
of psilocybin and cannabinoids on the brain and on bioplasticity
and talking about, you know, looking into how to break
these habitual patterns that do become ironically hardwired for some
survival reason at some point, but get stuck because the
(51:13):
brain wants us to have predictability. They want to they
want to make it easy for us and go on autopilot,
but we get caught in these loops. So I'm so
excited about your book. That's uh, that's that's it. I
think that would solve many, many, many of the problems.
Speaker 6 (51:32):
The world is in that direction anyways. Everybody's shifting and
I think people are looking for meaning or meaning these days.
So if it helps to give you for a person
who needs it to shift to a higher level of
thinking for meaning, so then you know, go for it.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah, And I'd like to just bring in a segment
we have called the nip It in the Bud where
we do myth busting. And I was gonna ask Seth
this one true serve fiction. Can you make a bong
out of snow?
Speaker 6 (52:14):
Yes, you can, true, true, matter of fact, he did
it last week.
Speaker 3 (52:24):
We did that when we were building the facility back
way way back, you know what I mean. But before
we were licensed, you know, we had there was a
lot of snow and and my partner Chris and I
did that and took a funny picture of it.
Speaker 7 (52:36):
So we you definitely absolutely can do that.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
How much snow? How much snow do you need? And
walk me through this. I've never smoked from a bong.
I've never smoked, but.
Speaker 7 (52:46):
We just made you know, it was like making the
snow man.
Speaker 3 (52:49):
But you know what, we just had to make sure
there was a channel that came down and up and
you know, you didn't need any water in it.
Speaker 7 (52:55):
Chilled the smoke. Nice, chilled the smoke nice for you.
So yes, you can. That's funny.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
Yeah, wow, I am enlightened. We have a passion for cannabis.
We you know, we've enjoyed the process. As hard as
it's been, we've been, we've enjoyed every part of the
process from you know, from building the team to building
the facility to operating it. Wow, really just try to,
you know, have that culture at two five three where
(53:20):
you know, you know, all the all the tough stuff
we keep, we keep behind the scenes, so you know,
you know, we really have a nice culture there. So people,
you know, people enjoy things like that.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
So in closing, did anyone come up with the punchline
to what did you hear about the Broadway producer, the
rabbi and the former that walked into a bar or
walked into a dispensary? Anyone got a punchline?
Speaker 5 (53:50):
Sorry, Maria. In all candor, I did win the British
equivalent of a Tony for Best New Comedy a number
of years ago. I still can't come up with an
answered that's funny for this one.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
I have a few ideas, unless Seth, do you have one?
Speaker 7 (54:06):
No that that's not really that's not my fortet.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
No, all right, I think the Broadway producer said to
the dispensary butt tender, do you have something that's gonna
make me feel like I'm in a chorus loan and
I'm twenty years old kicking my I can kick this
high and the bud tenders, Well, let me think about it,
(54:29):
farmer says, do you have anything that's gonna put me
in the relaxed state I am when I'm in my
cornfield and the wind is blowing and the breezes and
I want to feel that way and the buttender's shore.
We could hook you up there, And then the Rabbi says,
I'm just looking to get a little higher. I don't
(54:54):
know that's the best I could do. I like, thank
you for spending your time with us today on just
saying now. This has been an enlightening conversation touching on
the challenges, opportunities, and evolving cultural connections surrounding the cannabis industry.
(55:15):
Lu to recap some key takeaways from today's discussion. First,
we explored the significant barriers that federal illegality presents to
cannabis entrepreneurs and operators who are trying to function legally
in this legally gray space, including limited access to banking
(55:36):
and the burdens of HUX provisions like two ade. As
Alan highlighted, these challenges demand creativity, resilience, and willingness to
take on risk that other industries don't face. Yet, as
we discuss, for those who persevere, there is the potential
(55:56):
to shape and industry that is still in its infant
and create lasting change. We also dove into the operational
challenges of owning a vertically integrated dispensary and sustainable farming.
Thanks to SETS Insights, we learned that cannabis is about
more than consumption. It's about storytelling, community and creating safe
(56:21):
and responsible products that reflect care and intention. SETS artisanal
approach mirrors the sophistication of fine lines and Spirits, illustrating
that cannabis extends beyond medicinal use and could hold a
place in both everyday life and even special celebrations. Rabbi
(56:44):
Coen brought us a unique perspective on Kosher certified cannabis,
explaining its importance for inclusivity and its role in broadening
the accessibility of cannabis products beyond faith based communities. Kosher
certification represents on gold standard for cleanliness, quality and integrity,
(57:04):
and cultivation and production. We talked about the connection to
Hanaka traditions and the question of whether cannabis can facilitate
deeper spiritual pathways. Who was both fascinating and thought provoking.
As we look forward at the future of cannabis, it's
clear that this industry stands at crossroads, whether it's crafting
(57:29):
thoughtful regulations, advocating for normalization and legalization, or simply changing
the way people think about cannabis. The decisions we make
now they're going to have ripple effects for generations. To
our listeners, remember, cannabis is not just a product. It's
(57:52):
a movement, guys, a culture, and for many, a lifeline.
The stories we share today are proof of the diverse
voices working tirelessly to navigate this complex industry and ensure
it thrives responsibly. Finally, a heartfelt thank you to our guests,
(58:17):
Alan Shore for your entrepreneurial wisdom, Seth Rutherford for your
passion for sustainable agriculture and a responsible Premium Award winning dispensary.
Rabbi Yakov Cohen for your inspiring perspective on inclusivity and tradition,
(58:39):
especially as the story of Hanukkah inspires in us. All
perseverance in the face of adversity. Thank you for tuning
in to Just Say No on KCA Radio ten fifty
am one oh six point five FM. Let's continue to
rethink cannabis together. Until next time, I'm your oldest Maria Galli.
(59:00):
Stay curious, Stay informed, stay Festive and just Say No
with the K and A W K and ow Happy Holidays,
Everybody Happy, and say stay it, Let It Glow. Just
Say No is a green Bee Life presentation airing live
weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm Pacific
(59:24):
on KCA Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes are
on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Speaker, and most third
party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out on GBLTV,
on Greenbee Life YouTube and Rumble. To follow us our
(59:50):
Instagram and Facebook is at just Say No Radio. To
apply to be a guest on the show or for sponsor,
ship and advertising opportunities, go to greenbelife dot com, forward
slash just Say No.
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