Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello again, and welcome to Just Say No. I'm your host,
Maria Calabrey's and you're listening to CASEAA Radio ten fifty
AM one oh six point five FM. It's time to
grow on NO with some of the smartest minds in
the industry.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars, and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars
each and every year.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Stop. I can see so.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Young your Molesson. I'm a better fuye who has only begon.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Taken me a while to get it, had to.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Live and cry, to appreciate, laugh and what you give
his word when you're hold the knee, when you hold
me so close, someone better and under your skill.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I want to leave the mine. Today we're taking on
a topic that's got a lot of people talking and
maybe even a bit nervous. Cannabis and psychedelics. Imagine if
something as simple as an herb or a mushroom career
(01:42):
shape our understanding of mental health. Well, if you're feeling unsure,
you're not alone, and today's guest is here to clear
up some of the myths and bring us closer to
the science behind these powerful substances that are not only
for the adventuress, but hold a real, true promise for
(02:04):
improving brain health and enhancing general well being. I'm thrilled
to introduce doctor Menesh Gern. Mnash is a neuroscientist who's
earned his PhD from McGill University. Doctor Mensh's research focuses
on understanding the effects of cannabis, but even in more
(02:25):
depth psychedelics like psilocybin on the brain and how they
can support our mental health. Mnash brings a wealth of
knowledge from his groundbreaking work at UCSF in Robin kart
Hart Harris's lab, leading the exploration on how psychedelics impact
(02:46):
brain connectivity and neuroplasticity. His expertise bridges psychology, philosophy, and neuroscience,
which enables him to offer a really broad view on
how these natural substances might help us understand our minds
and new ways and we can apply this knowledge to
our daily lives to improve them and if you'd like
(03:09):
to learn more at home. Doctor Gern also shares his
research as the Psychedelic Scientist on YouTube, where he breaks
down the latest findings in an easy to digest way,
whether you're a bit curious or cautiously skeptical. We've got
an incredible guest and an exciting discussion lined up. So
(03:31):
sit back, relax, and let's get smarter together. I just
saying no, welcome, doctor Gern. Thank you so much for
joining us today. I'd like you briefly to introduce yourself
and tell us a little bit about Robin Carhart Harris's
lab and your role in the research being done.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
Yeah, thank you so much for the introduction, Maria, and
I'm really excited to chat with you today.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
These really are some.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Really important and popular topic and people are increasingly being
asked about psychedelics and cannabis and the stigma is starting
to be reduced, but there's still a lot of work
to do, a lot of stuff to clear up. Yes,
as you mentioned, I work at UCSF currently as a neuroscientist,
and what we primarily do is brain imaging research.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
On psychedelics such as psilocybin.
Speaker 5 (04:20):
Whereas psilocybin is the molecule in so called magic mushrooms
that has profound effects, and so what we study is
how that works on the brain and how that might
relate to changes in things like well being and psychological functioning.
So what many people might not know is that psilocybin
is used very commonly to treat depression and research studies
(04:41):
with a lot of promise. And it's also in a
variety of ways. We'll get into actually good for your
brain and healthy in certain ways and helping it grow
and regenerate and be more flexible over time.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Just let's really start at psychedelics one oh one, cannabis, mushrooms,
let's start magic mushrooms. So how would a magic mushroom,
for instance, as a fungui differ from one I put
in my salad.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
Yeah, so the fungi kingdom is a massive one, and
there's a huge variety of different types of fungi, and
in particular, there's around two hundred types of fungi that
contain the psilocybin, and so there's a huge variety. And
so the main difference is that they contain this little
molecule and a couple of other molecules. Other than that,
you might have walked past some psilocybin containing mushrooms on
(05:31):
a hike or in a forest, as they do grow
in a variety of places naturally across the world and
are actually quite common, and just by the naked eye,
it would be indistinguishable from any other mushroom growing and
it just happens to be the case. If you consume these,
they have a profound effect on your experience.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And psilocybin is just one of many compounds.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Correct, Yeah, so there's several, but psilocybin is the main
one that elicits the psychedelic effects, as we'd say.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
And I think that it's very interesting in parallel when
it comes to cannabis, because many people think, and it's
nobody's fault, it's because of the prohibition. There's been a
huge amount of misinformation or no information. So what most
people heard of was CBD or THC, and most people
(06:23):
think it's just THC and high. Now CBD is having
its day, but there's over one hundred and fifty compounds
and cannabis too, so and all of these have the
potential for medicinal benefit. So your research is so critical.
(06:43):
So cannabis not a mushroom. Cannabis, i'm told is a
vegetable and a herb. Can you verify that and tell
us a little bit about cannabis compared to fung gui.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Certainly.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I mean, we can call cannabis a plant herb, and
it's it's a different class than fungi. Obviously, it's not
a mushroom, but similar in that it's naturally occurring organism
that and it's also similar to magic mushrooms actually in
the fact that it's been used for hundreds, if not
thousands of years in different cultures across the world. And
(07:15):
it's quite interesting that we are very idiosyncratic in the
modern world as defining these compounds as drugs to be outlawed,
because cannabis as well as magic mushrooms have been revered
as almost as sacraments, as inducing these spiritual and healing
experiences that should be used in a ritual kind of way.
And so, you know, they've been kind of revered as
(07:38):
these parts of the natural world as a gift to
us that.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
We can use for own benefit. And so it's really.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Interesting we have this view of them as these dangerous
drugs in the modern context.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Doctor garn What exactly is neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
It's a fascinating topic that's actually becoming more and more
of interest in the mental health fields as well as neuroscience,
So neuroplasticity refers to the brain's ability to change itself,
to rewire connections, and to change itself in response to experience,
in response to injuries. It allows us to learn it's
(08:15):
involved in a variety of processes. And the old dogma,
you know, maybe twenty years ago, was that once we're
an adult, our brains don't change. They're not plastic anymore.
We're set in our ways. That's just how we are.
And now we know from decades of research that it's
not true.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
So if my husband, if my husband tells me stop
trying to teach an old dog new tricks. No, don't
let them get off on that.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Yeah, I would not let people get away with that.
I think that's just an excuse that people like to use.
But I think the research has told us time and
time again that the brain has this remarkable ability to change,
and that might be less when we're older, but it's
not zero. It's still there, and if you believe it's there,
you can create the change. If you believe it's impossible,
(09:03):
you're going to create that for yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Wow wow. And it might be a little bit more
challenging when you're older, but is that where these substances
can help facilitate it.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
I think particularly magic mushrooms have been highlighted for being
potent to neuroplastis the enhancers, and that's one of the
reasons why they're finding these studies with depression, that people
will take psilocybin mushrooms for just pure psilocybin into therapeutic
setting with a therapist one to three d times let's
say over a month or so, and six months later,
(09:40):
a month later, their curative a depression that they had
for twenty plus years, which is insane, But it's only
possible because of these neuroplastic changes in the brain, which
are relatively unpre precedented in the context of psychiatry.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Now, I know people who have suffered in chronic depression
and go back you talk twenty years, but going back
even further, I know people have been on psychopharmacologic medicines
before the ssriyes, right, there was a problem with value
and then that became addictive, and then there was I
(10:15):
think Eleville. Those were dating back and then the ssriyes
came out, But people are on those forever. And can
you talk a little bit about the side effects associate
it with. I mean, a lot of people who need
to be on medication shy away from it because right
because of the side effects, and then there's left to suffer.
(10:37):
Could you speak a little bit to.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
That, certainly, I mean there's definitely in place for these
stand in pharmaceuticals. Standard aite depressants helped many people cope
and live lives that they wouldn't be able to live otherwise.
But as you said, they come with side effects, they
come with the trade off. And so one of the
most commonly prescribed class of drugs are SSRIs, so selective
(11:01):
serotonin re uptake inhibitors, things like laxapro or prozac. People
may have heard a vibe of those two calmly prescribe drugs,
and these those are both antidepressants, and they basically change
your brain chemistry to help you feel a bit better,
but it comes at the cost of lessening your capacity
(11:21):
for positive.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Emotions as well. They kind of dull you emotionally.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
They can lead to wake gain, They kill people's sex drive,
and can lead to fatigue and all sorts of things.
And so you're the trade off is you're less depressed,
but you're less anything else right, it's a dulling out
and you expect it to take it every single day
and definitely otherwise you're gonna get worse again.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Can you tell us what a drink does to your brain?
It's not calming your nerves, right, it's killing. It's it's dulling.
It's it's killing the brain sells it's I don't. I'm
making them analogy to the antidepressants, where it's a dulling effect.
And when I talk to people who do psilocybin or
(12:10):
consume cannabis, they say it actually relieves the anxiety and
the depression to help them engage, not become the stoner,
stereotypical couchlock. Could you speak a little bit? Is there
truth to that? Are their studies? Is that your experience?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
I think that's a really good point to make. The thing.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
The important distinguishing characteristic of alcohol versus cannabis and magic
mushrooms is that alcohol is toxic for your brain. Cannabis
is not. Magic mushrooms are not. So alcohol is very
littlely neurotoxic in a way that these other substances are not.
And it's interesting that alcohol is culturally sanctioned while these
are demonized. But that that's a whole other topic. But
(12:53):
what you're alluding to is how alcohol will dull and
suppress our emotions and as opposed to the us an
opportunity to actually face them and work through them. And
how alcohol works in the brain is it primarily activates
particular brain receptors, which are the brain receptors that reduce
(13:15):
the activity.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Of our brain cells.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
And so literally when you take you drink a lot
of alcohol, it's suppressing the activity of different brain cells.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
And this is also why people feel a bit more
loose and disinhibited.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
Our usual kind of self consciousness and our ability to
regulate ourselves and our impulses is reduced because literally those
brain cells are being turned down. And same with our
areas related to emotions like sadness or fear, those are
also tapped down, which perhaps can be useful to socialize
and talk to that attractive person you're a nervous to
(13:48):
talk to, but over time it's you're really not making
real growth and progress as an individual. You're using it
as this kind of crutch or way to avoid your feelings.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And then that's where the addictive effect comes in. You
need it and you rely on it. Whereas you're not
having the correct of emotional experience. The difference if you're
consuming certain cannabinoids and terpenes or magic mushrooms, your brain
(14:21):
is actually changing and then you experience that. How would
that go if if I were to enter into therapy
and I had some type of post traumatic stress and
I had a face of fear that I've just been
dampening down go away with alcohol and pharma pharmacological drugs,
(14:44):
how would what would that therapy look like?
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Yeah, it's a it's really important emphasize that when we're
talking about magic mushrooms and psychedelics in the context of
mental health, it's in a very structured way. It's not
the same as just taking it with your friends and
going to a party or a festival or or what
have you. It's a very structured process where how it
begins is you'll meet your therapist that's guiding you through it,
(15:11):
and they're trained professional who knows specifically about psychedelic experiences
and how to guide people through them. And if you've
passed the screening. We usually screen people out with a
family or personal history of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, for example,
there is just a bit more risk there, so to
screen those people out, we bring them in and we
(15:32):
ask them to share about their lives, what they're going through,
what they're looking to get out of the experience, and
tell them how to best navigate the experience in a
safe way. And then the actual drug session is done
in a very controlled way where you're in this comfortable room.
You're asked to wear eye shades and listen to music
on the playlist and you literally just go internal into
(15:53):
your experience and explore what comes up. And naturally, memories
will come up, but you've long forgotten. You might start
sobbing a little bit from emotions from years ago that
you forgot, that you didn't process, and you're guided through
this very vulnerable and raw experience of you know, reliving memories,
processing emotions, having new perspectives on your life. And then
(16:15):
after that powerful experience, you're supported in, Okay, how do
we make sense of this? How can we ground that
into your life and the changes you want to make.
And so that's the process that magic mushrooms are usually
given in to treat depression or anxiety or these other conditions, and.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
What actually happens to your brain visa viva neuroplasticity, what's
actually happening.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, So it's really interesting.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
So during like experientially psychologically, you're going through all these
insights and reliving and so on and processing emotions. But
at the same time as that's happening, our brain is
becoming more plastic. So literally it's allowing your brain cells
to grow new connections that then you can encode what
you're experience in the last what you're experiencing in a
lasting way.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Wow, these are neural pathways.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
Your neurons are physically growing, they're physically grow extensions temporarily,
but then you can make them last.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
The belief used to be right the brain couldn't change
or heal. When did in research time was this discovery made.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Yeah, I think broadly over the past twenty years is
slowly being growing in recognition that it's possible. But I
think with psycondalics in the last ten years it's shown like, wow,
we can really boost this in a reliable way, in
a way that's potent and that last, and that could
be used for therapy. That's relatively recent in the past
decade that's really taken off.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
The realization that the brain has a remarkable ability to
actually adapt. You got to get past that trauma, so
you have to be able to tolerate it, adapt and
then heal. I mean wow, And isn't it a little paradoxical,
(18:02):
Like the brain doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily wired over
time to adapt. It's more it likes structure, it likes
it likes certainty, not so much uncertainty. So that's how
our pathways become cemented or habitual patterns happen.
Speaker 5 (18:24):
Yes, I love that you brought this up, because the
brain really is in the business of trying to make
our lives as automated and as easy as possible, right,
so it's get stuck in these patterns which it thinks, Oh,
it makes living easier because it makes you certain, I'm
gonna into this environment, I'm gonna be needed, needed to
act in this way.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And this is what works. This is how I am,
this is how the world is.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
But what's interesting, and there's there's a lot more research
emerging these days suggesting that the more rigid we are
in our ways, the worst our mental health. The worst
are resilience, right, the worst our adaptability.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
And so I think.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
The cornerstone of mental health and emotional resilience is flexibility,
flexibility in our thoughts, in who we think we are
and what we believe about the world, and always being
open to changing and growing. I and that's one of
the biggest markers of mental health and flourishing overall.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
How do we have innovation, how do we get past traumas?
How do we even just have conversations if we're on
two different sides? I mean, to be able to have
a conversation with you. There's many people I know who
will not even listen to me. They're going to just
say no and no, oh Maria, cannabis psychedelic, what are
(19:42):
you crazy? LSD people jumping at and well, okay, well
maybe you could use some little flexibility and expand your brain.
There's a time and place for structure. But is that
why they'll say for older people, it's very important to
get comfortable with the uncomfortable, learn a new language, pick
(20:06):
up an instrument. Is that where that comes in for
older people certainly?
Speaker 5 (20:12):
And those things you just mentioned help boost neuroplasticity, So
to keep your brain plastic and nimble, you know, some
of the most important things you can do are seek
out new experiences, learn new skills, learn language, learn an instrument.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
It's never too late.
Speaker 5 (20:27):
Also, one of the biggest boosters in neuroplasticity is endurance exercise,
whether that's swimming, cycling, jogging, even brisk walks. During that
for half an hour, let's say, three to four times
a week, is really it make wonders for people's brain
health and mental health.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
In terms of cannabis, can you tell us a little
bit of heard like the mother of all cannabinoids now
is being coined CpG, and I know that there see
the prohibition limits research, but it's exciting. With more acceptance
and with more legalization, you could speak to whether the
barriers of research are coming down. And if you could
(21:09):
tell me a little bit about the research on CBG
or how certain cannabinoids affect the brain.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Certainly, and so cannabis, as you were saying earlier, has
a whole variety of different compounds within it. It's not
just TC, which is what we usually associate it with
because that's what gives the typical high we associate with cannabis.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And not to interrupt you, maybe you could just explain
the difference as well THC before it is heated up,
it's actually in its raw form THCA is that correct?
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Right? It is correct?
Speaker 5 (21:43):
Yet TCA when warmed up, when heat it turns into GC.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yes, which has so even only THC has the psychotropic effect.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, certainly.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
And the three cannabinoids, as are called cannabinoids, are just
cannabis molecules, molecules that occur on the canvas plant. The
most popular ones that are studied and looked at for
their benefits and effects are THHC, which we just mentioned, CBD,
and then CBG, which he also briefly mentioned, and so
I guess walk through each of these really briefly. So
(22:18):
THHC is the compound you know that makes people high,
it makes people stoned. That's what people associate with cannabis.
And this has the typical effects, and in addition to that.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
It can also.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
It's often obviously in many people know, it's used to
believe anxiety. In lower doses, particularly, it can really calm
people's anxiety and also help with things like chronic pain.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
And that's tc.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
But then also CBD is also potently reduced as anxiety
and has been found in studies to do that. Studies
have also found that it could be antidepressant and not
only that it's also anti inflammatory, so people even with
arthritis and different inflammatory conditions are experiencing relief from CBD.
Not to mention also its effects for reducing epileptic seizures,
(23:09):
so reducing seizures for people with epilepsy, and it's actually
FDA approved for that. It is a compound CBD based
drug that does that. So CBD has no psychological effects acutely,
like here, it doesn't make you high, but behind the
scenes of our biology, through our endocannabinoid system, which I
could talk about, is actually has all these different health benefits.
(23:31):
And then the last one is CBG which is a
kind of simpler molecule than CBD or GATZ and actually
is you know, can be considered a precurstor of them.
It can turn into them with different steps, and that's
also very much involved in reducing inflammation. It modulates our
immune system, and it also relieves oxidative stress, meaning it's
(23:55):
an antioxidant, which again it means it clears up cellular
damag and it's healthy for ourselves as well throughout our bodies.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Now, cannabis has a rougher road. I think you can
answer this in terms of research.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yes, certainly.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
Yeah, there's a lot more research on magic mushrooms than
cannabis these days.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
There are actual peer reviewed studies for cannabis on those indications,
which is that correct?
Speaker 5 (24:24):
Yes, certainly, these are the most rigorous randomalized controlled trials
don esteemed institutions with cannabis and for psychedelics for that matter.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Great, and on our show page will list references for
our listeners. Yes, for anti seizures EPI dialects, CBD is
used in EPI dialects pharmaceutical drug, which that'll be a
whole other episode has caused quite confusion because once the
FDA approved it as an ingredient and a prescription drug,
(24:56):
they didn't speak to it as an ingredient in food
or in supplements, which is holding things up when it
comes to food and supplements. Do you believe even though
CBD is an ingredient in a pharmaceutical drug such as
EPI dialects for seizures, do you believe there is an
(25:16):
OTC and over the counter use for I mean yes, right,
it should be available when tinctures, gummies, topicals one hundred.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
I think they're trying to monopolize by making it into
a psychiatric drug that they could profit off of in patent.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
It's an ip play.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
It's you know, it's really just a psychiatry pharmaceutical play, that's.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
What that is.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
I think CBDs should be widely available in a variety
of different forms. It's non psychoactive, it's not addictive, if
it's not harmful outright for the you know, brain or body,
if anything is really beneficial for it when used in
the reasonable doses. And so there's no reason why it
should be outlowed the way it should be.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
This doesn't make any scientist makes sense.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Follow the money. I mean, we go all the way
back to the nineteen thirty seven Marijuana Tax Act, before
they probably even knew there was an endocannabinoid system, and
back when Eli Lilly was actually growing marijuana, and before
we turned to Pompey. But that's a whole other episode
on we'll get on talk about opioids. But and even
(26:26):
the US government held the patent on CBD from around
right just recently expired, and the indication was as a neuroprotectant.
So there's a lot of misinformation out there, and there's
a lot of conversation for us to spark. But you know,
(26:49):
so many people justifiably are concerned about potential risks, you know,
of cannabis and on psychedelics, and they talk about maybe
you could just speak to are they addictive?
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Right, so we could start there. Yeah, for we could
start with magic mushrooms really quick.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
The answer is no.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
There's no evidence that they create physical dependence or psychological
dependence in nine to nine percent of cases. And just
the nature of the way the drug works is you
can't really take it twice in a week in a
high dose because you could get tolerance really fast. And
also the effects are so intense and somewhat unpredictable.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
You don't know if you're going to have this, you know.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Blissful euphoric experience of laughing versus processing sadness you didn't
process when you're seven years old, right, You don't know
which direction is can to go necessarily, and so it's
hard to get addicted to that because you're not chasing
a high. It doesn't give you a high, it gives
you a profoundly variable experience.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
So that's why magic mushrooms are really unique. For cannabis.
Speaker 5 (27:58):
There's some potential for to be habit forming and addictive,
but much less than nicotine, less than alcohol, and so,
which is to say, like, we normalize alcohol and nicotine
a lot, and we deemonize cannabis when it's less toxic,
less harmful, and less addictive. But other of us would say,
like there is some potential for addictiveness with cannabis, as
(28:20):
people often will use it to self medicating anxiety and pain,
and anything that you're using to self medicate some kind
of suffering can be addictive. Whether that's food, it could
be exercised, it could be reading, it could be learning,
it could be anything could be addictive.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Workaholic, TikTok, social media, I get couch locked by Netflix.
I'm not worried about cannabis one thing that, but you're right,
because it's anything that's treating I'm a chronic back pain
suffer having had four massive spinal surgeries and anything that
(28:58):
you think, you anything that it's just this the they're
just they're not getting to the root. It's just treating
the symptom. It's gonna become addictive, whether it's physically addictive
or actually addictive in your brain, it's gonna become addictive
because you're you're taking care of the symptom. And when
the pain comes back, that's that's unpleasant. So you want more,
(29:21):
and you want more, and you want more. But you know,
the ability to change the actual physiology of your brain
and work through a trauma, adapt and heal and learn,
learn to become adaptable. That's I mean, wow. I mean
(29:41):
the impact on the world cannabis is smoked. Is smoking
for mushrooms a form of consumption or not?
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Typically no, So mushrooms usually you would just eat them,
or people will make a tea out of them, that's
also quite popular, or.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
To spake them into chocolate or it's fake goods.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
So but you consume it orally as we say, like
through your mouth, through your you know, digestive system, and
obviously cannabis can be consumed that way as well. And
I think you know, for cannabis, yes, like smoking and
combusting plant material can be you know, can irritate your
lungs of course, and so, but there's a whole variety
of ways outside of that, whether it's bay priizing it,
(30:22):
which is probably the better way to consume the herb,
as well as edibles or tinctures or lozenges that go
under your tongue. There's a variety of ways of consuming
cannabis without smoking.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
It is there emerging research on combining uh are silo
cybin and cannabis or psychedelic mushrooms and cannabis. Do they
have opposite effects or can they be complementary?
Speaker 5 (30:49):
Right, It's an interesting question, and you know, the scientists
and me has to say, we don't know yet. There
those studies haven't been conducted. Obviously, a lot of people
out in the world do combine them in different ways,
and it's not like taking a stimulant and smoking cannabis.
It's kind of conflicting a little bit. I think cannabis
can potentially complement psychedelics if you use in the right
(31:11):
way at the right point in the experience to help
ground people, get them back in their.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Body, relieve any anxiety and so on.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
But at the same time, smoking too much, especially high
tech sea strains while under a psychedelic could potentially lead
to more anxiety and potentially even paranoia. And so there
are risks and it's kind of a sensitive thing to
combine these two or really to combine any drugs that
are psychoactive is always a bit of a risk and
something to be handled sensitively. But I think if we
(31:44):
zoom forward ten years from now or twenty years and
where this is being studied, I think there will be
a use case for help for cannabis helping regulate people's
anxiety and help them move through potentially difficult emotions during
a psychedelic experience.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I hope we can have that emerging research. What are
the most promising findings in the work and research you're
doing in the lab and can you tell us a
little bit about the lab and about Robin for sure.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
So, as you've mentioned, I work at UCSF University of California,
San Francisco, and my supervisor is doctor Robin called Hardharris,
and he's a major pioneer in the space, published over
the hundreds of papers, and he did the first ever
modern study using psilocybin mushrooms for depression and also the
first ever brain imaging studies of psilocybin and LSD and DMT,
(32:37):
two other psychedelics. And so he's a world recognized leader
in the space. And I actually moved to San Francisco
to work with him directly. I've known him for years
and we're doing a variety of studies at the cutting
edge of how psilocybin affects the brain, and in particular,
one of our studies now we're looking at we're trying
to see how different people, different people's brains respond in
(32:59):
different ways and and how that we might use that
to predict whether they're going to get better or what
the long term effects for them is going to be.
For example, we want to say, by measuring your brain
now and seeing how it relaxes reacts to psilocybin dury
in the experience, we know that we can we know
whether in six months or a year from now you're
going to do doing better or the same or potentially
(33:22):
even worse. And we're trying to create these models to
do that based on the brain.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Very very very exciting. And if someone wanted to explore
the possibility of working with a neuroscientist or a psychiatrist,
are there many trained in this type of using magic
mushrooms in there there in their psychiatric practices in the
(33:49):
United States.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think this to start there.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
I think it's important to recognize the legal status of
mushrooms right because they are federally illegal their schedule. However,
there are places where there are a number of a
growing number.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Of cities where it's decriminalized.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
And so yeah, so you can access it, you could
be gifted it and possess it and use it without
being criminalized, without being without it being illegal, and so
that is possible, and there are certain states leading the charge. Actually,
so Oregon has state approved psilocybin service centers where you
(34:27):
can do legal psilocybin therapy.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
You could literally drive into.
Speaker 5 (34:31):
Oregon, flying there whatever and do legal psilocybin therapy. Today
people are doing it, and Colorado is also they they've proved,
proved approved a bill for it as well, and so
there in the middle of that, and I've actually interfaced
with a lot of practitioners and organizations doing trainings for
practitioners and I've supported them in Colorado to help bring
(34:54):
that in. So there are places in the States to
do that, and also places like Jamaica, for examp sal
sabn rushioms were never illegal in Jamaica and there's tons
of retreat centers. People fly out to do psilocybin in
Jamaica as well, for example. So so to answer your
first question whether there are people training in this, there
(35:15):
are thousands and thousands of people training in the States.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
You know, a lot of.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
Them do it kind of you know, underground, and some
of them do it in these legal, sanctioned places where
it's either decriminalized or legal in the States.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, I don't know. I think our brains as a
society have to be expanded because in mental health, if
you look at the history we you know, we're drilling
holes in people's heads and trying to do a lobotomy
and that was okay legal. Are they still they're still
(35:51):
doing electroshock therapy in the United States? Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (35:55):
Yeah, they do it as the last resort. Yeah, it's funny.
It's funny. There was a as a side story in Canada.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
So I'm Canadian originally from Canada.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
And so in Canada, we have a way through the
government to give compassionate access to psio cyber therapy. Actually,
but in order to qualify for it, you needn't have
a depression that didn't respond to at least two or
three antidepressant medications, and in most cases they ask you
to try electrical bolsive therapy first, which is absurd.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It's like to be able to be.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
Suitable to try this natural incurring mushroom in a therapeutic setting,
you have to be shocked first, and that has to
not work in order to get there.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
It's just absurd. It's quite ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
What and I don't look, some people only have certain
therapies available to them or maybe even benefit. But what
does electroshock therapy due to the brain? Can you just
explain that?
Speaker 3 (36:58):
You know what is really interesting?
Speaker 5 (36:59):
Actually it through stressing the brain and overstimulating it, it
actually boosts neuroplasticity. It's kind of wild. So there is
there is reasons why it seems to work, not beyond
just you know, something barbaric and so interesting enough.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
By zapping it, your stimulating.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Activity and it gets your brain to release all sorts
of things to comment that, so it could potentially be
anti inflammatory is the brain response to it. But it
also upregulates neuroplasticity. It shocks neurons into activating a lot
and increasing their plasticity.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
So there is some sense.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
To it, all right, But you know, I, you know,
I used to go to chiropractors who would do a
very aggressive crack. But if there's a gentler modality, I
try to seek out the ones that kind of work
(37:58):
the muscles and then the spot I'll just kind of
go back into. You know, Chandler modality is less invasive
my goodness.
Speaker 5 (38:07):
Yeah, but okay, and ECT is not necessarily helping people
work through their trauma. You know, it's not working through
their emotions. You're just being zapped artificially into feeling better.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I've heard it could help break habitual patterns, and one
of those could be smoking or improving your diet, drinking
less alcohol for pain management, you mentioned, But do you
have any kind of real life examples or stories or
have you yourself experienced a positive benefit?
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Certainly, so we can start there.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
I suppose like me many years ago as a teenager actually,
which you know, we can get into the whole adolescence thing.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
But I think one of you know done.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
For me is it allowed me to view myself and
my life in a new way. So at the time
I was, you know, younger, I was suffering from a
bit of bullying.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
I was didn't really.
Speaker 5 (39:10):
Know myself too well, and myself esteem wasn't the highest.
And psilocybin mushrooms allow me to kind of see beyond
that limited perspective I was having see my strengths and
see my life in a new light. It actually inspired
me to become a neuroscientist. It inspired me to pursue
a path of knowledge and learning. Actually, I know that
does that doesn't happen to everybody necessarily as a teenager
(39:33):
doing these things, but it really inspired the deep curiosity,
curiosity and connection to a love for learning.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
And so I made that impact for me.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So for you, it was a gateway to a doctoral
post doctoral leading edge research, pioneering and maybe having this
fantastic disruptive effect on in a good way, on helping
improve people's lives. I appreciate your sharing that with me.
(40:05):
That to me is better than any case study. I mean,
you know, anecdotal evidence, we have a lot of it.
What do you as a scientist, how do you place
value on anecdotal evidence? What do you think?
Speaker 5 (40:18):
I think there's a lot of value in considering these
case studies. You know, I mentioned myself, but I've heard
countless people who overcame addictions or alcoholism or their depression,
or seen that in loved ones and so on and well,
these of course don't qualify as scientific evidence per se,
but they tell us that there's something there.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
It's not all you know, there's something.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
To being covered and understood, and so for me, these
case studies provide hypotheses and ideas that then could be
studied in more controlled studies.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
And that's exactly what we do.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
You can't deny it it you know, seeing is believing,
and you and I come to it. We're drawn to
these natural substances when and western medicine just didn't have
a good solution. And I mean, thank god you found
it as an adolescent and got what you needed. But
(41:12):
how wonderful if it could be normalized and just the
standard treatment that doctors weren't fearful to discuss. Does mindfulness
that affect your neuroplasticity?
Speaker 3 (41:29):
It's a good question, very likely.
Speaker 5 (41:31):
I'm not sure if those studies necessarily have been conducted
because I can get into all the scientific details on why.
It's a bit hard to study. But I think mindfulness
really does dovetail well with both cannabis and psychedelics, and
it does certainly change your brain over time and allow
you to regulate your anxiety and your emotions in a
(41:51):
better way and just to be a more grounded individual.
I have a daily meditation in myiness practitioner and I
have been since I was like nineteen years old, so
I've always prioritized the daily practice and it's definitely being
transformative for me.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
You're a young man but an old soul, and uh,
don't go anywhere everybody unless you're driving, because when we
come back, we're gonna debunk outdated myths and stereotypes and
our nipping in the bud segment after this quick word
from our sponsor.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
Some say age is a state of mind until you
get those nagging pains in places you didn't even know existed.
Fifty is the new four twenty greenbeelife dot com. You're
leaving cannabis media brand, changing away the world sees green.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Hey, welcome back. You're listening to Just Say No. I'm
your host, Maria Calabreys. I'm discussing natural ways to unlock
our brain's potential with psychedelic neuroscientist doctor Minesh gern On
KCAA Radio ten fifty AM one oh six point five FM.
So now we're gonna we're gonna nip it in the bud.
(43:13):
We're gonna break some stigmas and look forward. So cannabis
myths versus reality, psychedelic myths versus reality, so many myths
around in cannabis and psychedelic use. What are some of
the common misconceptions you've encountered and can you debunk them
(43:34):
with what the research says.
Speaker 5 (43:37):
Certainly, so, let's start with cannabis. So one of the
most common ones, and we were talking about this before
the show started as well, is the idea of cannabis
as a gateway drug.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Now. I heard this growing up, a lot of people did.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
It's a part of basically drug war propaganda essentially, is
what it is. And there's no evidence in the epidemiological
studies a large scales these studies that that's the case.
The things that lead cannabis to that get cannabis to
lead to other drug use are related to your social environment,
(44:09):
socioeconomic status, all these different factors, social factors, and cultural factors.
It's there's no evidence that cannabis use alone leads people
to try other drugs. Often it's a gateway to your
fridge or gateway to you know, buying a bunch of
snacks from your local seven to eleven or something. There's
no evidence that people smoke cannabis and then automatically go
(44:32):
on to, you know, try heroin or cocaine.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Or anything.
Speaker 5 (44:36):
Those are radically different compounds, and I think that's just
a myth that should really does not exist anymore, but
people seem to still believe it, but there's no evidence
for it.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
A big part of that is because they're both classified
it legally as scheduled one.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yeah, which is absurd.
Speaker 5 (44:53):
And this is really funny, Maria, because you mentioned earlier
the US had a patent on the medicinal use of
cannabinoids going back to decades, while at the same time
the FDA was saying and dea it's schedule on it's
no potential for medical use and high abuse potential when
they had a patent showing that it's not that, you know,
(45:15):
it's absurd as.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
In door protected. And they weren't allowing the NFL and
the football players.
Speaker 5 (45:21):
My god, yeah, who could have really benefit that from
concussion recovery And that's the topic we didn't talk about,
but cbd is can be really helpful for you know,
recovery from a rain injury or a stroke for that matter.
There's studies on this, so it's it's quite terrible to
be it's like anti scientific, very politically and racially motivated.
(45:45):
We didn't get into the drug war. But there's all
sorts of nonsense around that.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Follow the money. But guys, don't, just I think the
first step. Don't have to go out and try magic
mushrooms or go into therapy or even try cannabis, but
just try to I I applaud everyone who's listening because
you're you're converting n O to k n OW and
(46:12):
hopefully this knowledge will be useful because honestly, until people
say enough is enough and complain right, all politics is local.
You got to start on the local level the constituents
if they start demanding some better healthcare. Only then will
(46:32):
the politicians listen. And it's all politically motivated, and oh,
it's just bad medicine, bad medicine, and it's it's, it's
it's it's frustrating, but and it's nobody's fault to to
have the perceptions you have. But this conversation and just
listening to it is an opportunity to let's uh, let's
(46:54):
all go for a jog afterwards and expand our brains. So, yeah,
dangerous toxic substance or powerful natural medicine sounds like it's
a powerful natural medicine and it's a gateway to greater understanding,
greater empathy, greater adaptability. The planet's just getting more and
(47:17):
more people on it if we can't adapt and to
exercise some flexibility.
Speaker 5 (47:23):
So another one is that then this is a nuanced one,
but the idea that cannabis damages your brain. So I've
looked personally at a lot of research literature on how
brain imaging has shown differences in the brain as results
of cannabis use. And this is actually something that mean
and a friend of mine, he's a Stanford MD, where
(47:44):
can publish this in a paper.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Actually hopeful in the next six months or so.
Speaker 5 (47:47):
We reviewed every study ever done on whether cannabis use
changes the structure of our brain, and we found is
that a lot of studies found increases size in certain
brain regions, a lot of studies found decreased size in
a lot of brain regions. When we bring them all together,
they cancel each other out. So what that means is this,
(48:10):
it's a mess of research that there's no conclusions that
can be drawn on actual structural changes that last in
your brain as a result of cannabis use. And in
terms of like what that means from brain damage, it
means there's no reliable effect. And if we could say anything,
it's that heavy chronic use in adolescence likely does cause
(48:34):
potentially damage or developmental changes in the way, you know,
impairments in the way that the brain might develop in
certain ways, and that service factor. I would certainly not
advocate for a heavy chronic use in teenagers or early.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Adults for that matter.
Speaker 5 (48:48):
It's all about moderation, and the research does it that
suggests that using it at reasonable dosages, not every day,
but in a moderate way has.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
Minimal to know harmful effects.
Speaker 5 (49:00):
There's no evidence that that damage the brain damages the
brain per se and in fact, as we've been saying,
depending on the strain, especially if it's a high CVD
ratio strain, it can be even good for the brain.
It can even be anti inflammatory and antioxidant, which are
the two things that basically mean neuroprotectant and protecting the
health of your neurons.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
And so it's a nuanced topic.
Speaker 5 (49:22):
I think the idea that oh, you're gonna smoke cannabis
is going to damage your brain is not true. It
can only potentially be true in extreme circumstances for young
people teenagers smoking a lot. But it's a lot more
nuanced than that, and the research is very messy.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
And even god forbid, if you're younger and you're struck
with a terrible, terrible disease or like it's being you know,
a god forbid cancer, you have a pediatric case and
you start using Rick Simpson oil or high THC. Again,
if it's I mean, I don't know, I don't know
(49:59):
what this study show of the effect if someone has
a medical reason to take high strains. But even then,
like it would probably be microdosed and a tolerance would
be built, then it would be monitored, so it would
come down to responsible use.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
I would think, yeah, I think everything in moderation, right.
Speaker 5 (50:19):
And something I want to add here actually important is
that if you look at the effects of alcohol in
the brain, the amount of brain damage that alcohol creates,
whether you're an adult or an adolescence, is far far
greater than cannabis because alcohol is directly neurotoxic.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
Cannabis isn't.
Speaker 5 (50:37):
Cannabis over time will create changes in your brain and
you know, in a more subtle way, whereas alcohol.
Speaker 3 (50:44):
Which every nineteen year old or whatever, nineteen twenty one.
Speaker 5 (50:47):
Year old they're binge drinking out there, they're partying with
their friends, they're doing all these things, which is terrible,
and that that the amount of lifelong brain damage that
happens to like ninety percent of you who drink like
that is, you know, is massive, and it's like it's
so culturally sanctioned. Yet we're demonizing cannabis use, which you know,
(51:09):
in order to even if you smoke chronic heavy cannabis
as a nineteen year old, it's not gonna be as
harmful as chronic bing drinking for your brain. And people
don't realize this because again there's all sorts of uh,
misinformation and stigma around cannabis.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
So Willie Nelson's ninety one years old, and I could say,
I don't know how many decades he's been smoking cannabis,
but many decades, and thank god it wasn't alcohol. I
don't know if he'd be here for his ninety first birthday,
let alone still doing concerts.
Speaker 5 (51:47):
Because alcohol also speeds up dementia and Alzheimer's and cognitive decline.
Alcohol does that in the way cannabis doesn't. Cannabis it
can even protect against that. CBD is used to help
with people with Alzheimer's. You're not going to prescribe somebody
vodka recovering from Alzheimer's, you know, or raw or whiskey
or what have you, that's going to exacerbate it. And
(52:09):
so these are important distinctions. There's so much cultural arbitrarity
around it, and just you know, you want to know
something promising, Maria. Actually, there are statistics amongst like gen
Zers and the younger generation, they're drinking less and less alcohol,
and in fact, people are you know, even going to
parties and taking small doses of magic mushrooms for example,
(52:31):
like microdoses as they're called, which is a tiny amount
which you're not really it's not really opponent experience, but
it can uplift your mood, it can might slightly change
your experience, and like mildly intoxicating, but definitely not like
alcohol and not harmful for the brain like alcohol.
Speaker 3 (52:48):
So I think amongst the young people.
Speaker 5 (52:49):
Who were born let's say late nineties even two thousands,
they're drinking much less than any generations previously, and so
there's a downward trend there. So they're they're growing up
so and we like culturally, we're growing up in certain cases,
and there's a lot of maturity around these things and
awareness that people who you know might have grown up
(53:11):
and we're an adult in the eighties with all the
nonsense I was peddled back then. Just you know, it's
hard because that's what you were taught growing up, and
so it's hard to question it, and there's resistance and fear.
But I think we need to be open to the
facts and what it's real and what the science is
telling us. Otherwise we're closing ourselves off from a potentially
extremely beneficial holistic resource for our health right which is
(53:35):
cannabis and magic mushrooms to some extent.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
And we're suffering as a society. We're in pain, We're
just not enjoying life when we could be just numbed
out getting medicated or drinking and then having the side
effects associated with that. There's a whole world out there
to discover and learn, but you know, and it's always balancing, right.
(54:04):
I think the hardest thing in parenting is setting healthy
limits and you know, not repressing the child, but you
want to protect them and to be able to let
go and let them explore and experiment. Bad things can happen,
So anthropologically we do we do for safety or try
(54:28):
to just say you know, no, don't go there or
you know, But I just I hope people will before
jumping to n try to no kayn ow. Just just
become curious about things. My husband's always telling me, I
don't know why. I mean, I have to take a
magic mushroom. Maybe I'll do that and we'll do another
(54:49):
episode and I'll tell you why. But no matter what
that guy says me jerk, I say no, no, I
don't know why. It's a defensiveness. It's a control thing, right,
but it's in there, Edie. He gave me a good exercise.
He said, could you try just saying maybe saying it's
(55:10):
they'd jumping right to know? Whenever I say something, how
about yeah maybe and then think about it. It's not
easy for me to do that.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (55:23):
I mean, I love that you're sharing this, and you know,
it's like a real experience in a lot of cases
for me, I think a really important skill to cultivate
is a skepticism of your new jerk reactions and emotional responses.
Speaker 3 (55:38):
Right, It's like, oh, I feel yeah, you know I
feel this right now.
Speaker 5 (55:41):
I feel very averastive. This feels wrong, it feels bad.
Why do I feel that way. What if I just
sat with it? What if I just breathed like? What
if I question that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (55:50):
You know.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
As we wrap up today's episode of Just Saying No,
I hope we've managed to shed some light on the
potential of cannabis and psychedelics psilocybin as viable natural medicines
when used responsible Doctor Gern has guided us through the
science behind these substances, highlighting their unique role in mental
(56:15):
and brain health, particularly through harnessing neuroplasticity. Our brains have
a remarkable, remarkable ability to adapt and hal and heal,
to adapt and heal, So I mean, who can be
against that a gateway to being more adaptable and to healing. Hey,
(56:36):
sign me up. While these topics, though honestly they can
feel intimidating or even controversial, emerging research is revealing promising
benefits for those seeking natural alternatives to conventional treatments, or
when conventional treatments just don't have an answer. We've learned
(56:57):
that destigmatizing these medicines it's gonna require ongoing education and
inform dialogue like today's episode, by understanding how these substances
interact with our bodies and minds we can move beyond
the fears toward a more open, compassionate perspective on their potential,
(57:18):
which is documented. So let's keep the conversation going. I
encourage everyone to visit our website Greenbelife dot com, where
you can find educational programming on GBLTV and in our
greenbey Life Learning Center. There's articles, guides, Stay curious, continue
educating yourselves, and approach these topics with as my husband
(57:44):
likes to tell me to how to approach him, not
with him, No, yeah, maybe you know, Let's approach them
with an open mind and respect for the science. Before
we sign off, I'd also like to offer you too,
super valuable resources to further your understanding of applying the
(58:04):
knowledge we've learned from today's episode. Visit doctor Gern's website
at mnshgern dot com that's mensh M a n E
s h g I r n mneshgern dot com to
download a free guide Five Steps to Rewiring your Brain
with Psychedelics. This pdf offers practical insights into harnessing the
(58:28):
power of neuroplasticity and for those listeners or healthcare providers
wanting to take a deeper dive. Check out doctor Gern's
masterclash and ebook also at Meneshgern dot com Forward Slash Masterclass.
It's an excellent opportunity to learn from a leading pioneering
(58:51):
expert in this most critical field. Thank you for joining
us on Just Saying No today. Remember knowledge is powers,
especially when it comes to your health and well being.
Stay curious, stay informed, and always keep learning until next time.
This is Maria Calbury's encouraging you to just say no
(59:16):
with a k n OW. Let me tell you. Just
Say No is a green Bee Life presentation airing live
weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm Pacific
on KCA Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes are
(59:37):
on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Speaker, and most third
party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out on GBLTV,
on Greenbee Life YouTube, and Rumble. To follow us our
Instagram and Facebook is at Just Saying Know Radio. To
(01:00:02):
apply to be a guest on the show or for
sponsorship and advertising opportunities, go to
Hello again, and welcome to Just Say No. I'm your host,
Maria Calabrey's and you're listening to CASEAA Radio ten fifty
AM one oh six point five FM. It's time to
grow on NO with some of the smartest minds in
the industry.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
By twenty twenty, Bank of America and Merrill Lynch estimate
that will grow to thirty five billion dollars, and many
experts believe it could eventually reach two hundred billion dollars
each and every year.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Stop. I can see so.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Young your Molesson. I'm a better fuye who has only begon.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Taken me a while to get it, had to.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Live and cry, to appreciate, laugh and what you give
his word when you're hold the knee, when you hold
me so close, someone better and under your skill.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I want to leave the mine. Today we're taking on
a topic that's got a lot of people talking and
maybe even a bit nervous. Cannabis and psychedelics. Imagine if
something as simple as an herb or a mushroom career
(01:42):
shape our understanding of mental health. Well, if you're feeling unsure,
you're not alone, and today's guest is here to clear
up some of the myths and bring us closer to
the science behind these powerful substances that are not only
for the adventuress, but hold a real, true promise for
(02:04):
improving brain health and enhancing general well being. I'm thrilled
to introduce doctor Menesh Gern. Mnash is a neuroscientist who's
earned his PhD from McGill University. Doctor Mensh's research focuses
on understanding the effects of cannabis, but even in more
(02:25):
depth psychedelics like psilocybin on the brain and how they
can support our mental health. Mnash brings a wealth of
knowledge from his groundbreaking work at UCSF in Robin kart
Hart Harris's lab, leading the exploration on how psychedelics impact
(02:46):
brain connectivity and neuroplasticity. His expertise bridges psychology, philosophy, and neuroscience,
which enables him to offer a really broad view on
how these natural substances might help us understand our minds
and new ways and we can apply this knowledge to
our daily lives to improve them and if you'd like
(03:09):
to learn more at home. Doctor Gern also shares his
research as the Psychedelic Scientist on YouTube, where he breaks
down the latest findings in an easy to digest way,
whether you're a bit curious or cautiously skeptical. We've got
an incredible guest and an exciting discussion lined up. So
(03:31):
sit back, relax, and let's get smarter together. I just
saying no, welcome, doctor Gern. Thank you so much for
joining us today. I'd like you briefly to introduce yourself
and tell us a little bit about Robin Carhart Harris's
lab and your role in the research being done.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
Yeah, thank you so much for the introduction, Maria, and
I'm really excited to chat with you today.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
These really are some.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Really important and popular topic and people are increasingly being
asked about psychedelics and cannabis and the stigma is starting
to be reduced, but there's still a lot of work
to do, a lot of stuff to clear up. Yes,
as you mentioned, I work at UCSF currently as a neuroscientist,
and what we primarily do is brain imaging research.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
On psychedelics such as psilocybin.
Speaker 5 (04:20):
Whereas psilocybin is the molecule in so called magic mushrooms
that has profound effects, and so what we study is
how that works on the brain and how that might
relate to changes in things like well being and psychological functioning.
So what many people might not know is that psilocybin
is used very commonly to treat depression and research studies
(04:41):
with a lot of promise. And it's also in a
variety of ways. We'll get into actually good for your
brain and healthy in certain ways and helping it grow
and regenerate and be more flexible over time.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Just let's really start at psychedelics one oh one, cannabis, mushrooms,
let's start magic mushrooms. So how would a magic mushroom,
for instance, as a fungui differ from one I put
in my salad.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
Yeah, so the fungi kingdom is a massive one, and
there's a huge variety of different types of fungi, and
in particular, there's around two hundred types of fungi that
contain the psilocybin, and so there's a huge variety. And
so the main difference is that they contain this little
molecule and a couple of other molecules. Other than that,
you might have walked past some psilocybin containing mushrooms on
(05:31):
a hike or in a forest, as they do grow
in a variety of places naturally across the world and
are actually quite common, and just by the naked eye,
it would be indistinguishable from any other mushroom growing and
it just happens to be the case. If you consume these,
they have a profound effect on your experience.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And psilocybin is just one of many compounds.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Correct, Yeah, so there's several, but psilocybin is the main
one that elicits the psychedelic effects, as we'd say.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
And I think that it's very interesting in parallel when
it comes to cannabis, because many people think, and it's
nobody's fault, it's because of the prohibition. There's been a
huge amount of misinformation or no information. So what most
people heard of was CBD or THC, and most people
(06:23):
think it's just THC and high. Now CBD is having
its day, but there's over one hundred and fifty compounds
and cannabis too, so and all of these have the
potential for medicinal benefit. So your research is so critical.
(06:43):
So cannabis not a mushroom. Cannabis, i'm told is a
vegetable and a herb. Can you verify that and tell
us a little bit about cannabis compared to fung gui.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Certainly.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I mean, we can call cannabis a plant herb, and
it's it's a different class than fungi. Obviously, it's not
a mushroom, but similar in that it's naturally occurring organism
that and it's also similar to magic mushrooms actually in
the fact that it's been used for hundreds, if not
thousands of years in different cultures across the world. And
(07:15):
it's quite interesting that we are very idiosyncratic in the
modern world as defining these compounds as drugs to be outlawed,
because cannabis as well as magic mushrooms have been revered
as almost as sacraments, as inducing these spiritual and healing
experiences that should be used in a ritual kind of way.
And so, you know, they've been kind of revered as
(07:38):
these parts of the natural world as a gift to
us that.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
We can use for own benefit. And so it's really.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Interesting we have this view of them as these dangerous
drugs in the modern context.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Doctor garn What exactly is neuroplasticity.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
It's a fascinating topic that's actually becoming more and more
of interest in the mental health fields as well as neuroscience,
So neuroplasticity refers to the brain's ability to change itself,
to rewire connections, and to change itself in response to experience,
in response to injuries. It allows us to learn it's
(08:15):
involved in a variety of processes. And the old dogma,
you know, maybe twenty years ago, was that once we're
an adult, our brains don't change. They're not plastic anymore.
We're set in our ways. That's just how we are.
And now we know from decades of research that it's
not true.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
So if my husband, if my husband tells me stop
trying to teach an old dog new tricks. No, don't
let them get off on that.
Speaker 5 (08:42):
Yeah, I would not let people get away with that.
I think that's just an excuse that people like to use.
But I think the research has told us time and
time again that the brain has this remarkable ability to change,
and that might be less when we're older, but it's
not zero. It's still there, and if you believe it's there,
you can create the change. If you believe it's impossible,
(09:03):
you're going to create that for yourself.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Wow wow. And it might be a little bit more
challenging when you're older, but is that where these substances
can help facilitate it.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 5 (09:18):
I think particularly magic mushrooms have been highlighted for being
potent to neuroplastis the enhancers, and that's one of the
reasons why they're finding these studies with depression, that people
will take psilocybin mushrooms for just pure psilocybin into therapeutic
setting with a therapist one to three d times let's
say over a month or so, and six months later,
(09:40):
a month later, their curative a depression that they had
for twenty plus years, which is insane, But it's only
possible because of these neuroplastic changes in the brain, which
are relatively unpre precedented in the context of psychiatry.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Now, I know people who have suffered in chronic depression
and go back you talk twenty years, but going back
even further, I know people have been on psychopharmacologic medicines
before the ssriyes, right, there was a problem with value
and then that became addictive, and then there was I
(10:15):
think Eleville. Those were dating back and then the ssriyes
came out, But people are on those forever. And can
you talk a little bit about the side effects associate
it with. I mean, a lot of people who need
to be on medication shy away from it because right
because of the side effects, and then there's left to suffer.
(10:37):
Could you speak a little bit to.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
That, certainly, I mean there's definitely in place for these
stand in pharmaceuticals. Standard aite depressants helped many people cope
and live lives that they wouldn't be able to live otherwise.
But as you said, they come with side effects, they
come with the trade off. And so one of the
most commonly prescribed class of drugs are SSRIs, so selective
(11:01):
serotonin re uptake inhibitors, things like laxapro or prozac. People
may have heard a vibe of those two calmly prescribe drugs,
and these those are both antidepressants, and they basically change
your brain chemistry to help you feel a bit better,
but it comes at the cost of lessening your capacity
(11:21):
for positive.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Emotions as well. They kind of dull you emotionally.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
They can lead to wake gain, They kill people's sex drive,
and can lead to fatigue and all sorts of things.
And so you're the trade off is you're less depressed,
but you're less anything else right, it's a dulling out
and you expect it to take it every single day
and definitely otherwise you're gonna get worse again.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Can you tell us what a drink does to your brain?
It's not calming your nerves, right, it's killing. It's it's dulling.
It's it's killing the brain sells it's I don't. I'm
making them analogy to the antidepressants, where it's a dulling effect.
And when I talk to people who do psilocybin or
(12:10):
consume cannabis, they say it actually relieves the anxiety and
the depression to help them engage, not become the stoner,
stereotypical couchlock. Could you speak a little bit? Is there
truth to that? Are their studies? Is that your experience?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
I think that's a really good point to make. The thing.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
The important distinguishing characteristic of alcohol versus cannabis and magic
mushrooms is that alcohol is toxic for your brain. Cannabis
is not. Magic mushrooms are not. So alcohol is very
littlely neurotoxic in a way that these other substances are not.
And it's interesting that alcohol is culturally sanctioned while these
are demonized. But that that's a whole other topic. But
(12:53):
what you're alluding to is how alcohol will dull and
suppress our emotions and as opposed to the us an
opportunity to actually face them and work through them. And
how alcohol works in the brain is it primarily activates
particular brain receptors, which are the brain receptors that reduce
(13:15):
the activity.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Of our brain cells.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
And so literally when you take you drink a lot
of alcohol, it's suppressing the activity of different brain cells.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
And this is also why people feel a bit more
loose and disinhibited.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
Our usual kind of self consciousness and our ability to
regulate ourselves and our impulses is reduced because literally those
brain cells are being turned down. And same with our
areas related to emotions like sadness or fear, those are
also tapped down, which perhaps can be useful to socialize
and talk to that attractive person you're a nervous to
(13:48):
talk to, but over time it's you're really not making
real growth and progress as an individual. You're using it
as this kind of crutch or way to avoid your feelings.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And then that's where the addictive effect comes in. You
need it and you rely on it. Whereas you're not
having the correct of emotional experience. The difference if you're
consuming certain cannabinoids and terpenes or magic mushrooms, your brain
(14:21):
is actually changing and then you experience that. How would
that go if if I were to enter into therapy
and I had some type of post traumatic stress and
I had a face of fear that I've just been
dampening down go away with alcohol and pharma pharmacological drugs,
(14:44):
how would what would that therapy look like?
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Yeah, it's a it's really important emphasize that when we're
talking about magic mushrooms and psychedelics in the context of
mental health, it's in a very structured way. It's not
the same as just taking it with your friends and
going to a party or a festival or or what
have you. It's a very structured process where how it
begins is you'll meet your therapist that's guiding you through it,
(15:11):
and they're trained professional who knows specifically about psychedelic experiences
and how to guide people through them. And if you've
passed the screening. We usually screen people out with a
family or personal history of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, for example,
there is just a bit more risk there, so to
screen those people out, we bring them in and we
(15:32):
ask them to share about their lives, what they're going through,
what they're looking to get out of the experience, and
tell them how to best navigate the experience in a
safe way. And then the actual drug session is done
in a very controlled way where you're in this comfortable room.
You're asked to wear eye shades and listen to music
on the playlist and you literally just go internal into
(15:53):
your experience and explore what comes up. And naturally, memories
will come up, but you've long forgotten. You might start
sobbing a little bit from emotions from years ago that
you forgot, that you didn't process, and you're guided through
this very vulnerable and raw experience of you know, reliving memories,
processing emotions, having new perspectives on your life. And then
(16:15):
after that powerful experience, you're supported in, Okay, how do
we make sense of this? How can we ground that
into your life and the changes you want to make.
And so that's the process that magic mushrooms are usually
given in to treat depression or anxiety or these other conditions, and.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
What actually happens to your brain visa viva neuroplasticity, what's
actually happening.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, So it's really interesting.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
So during like experientially psychologically, you're going through all these
insights and reliving and so on and processing emotions. But
at the same time as that's happening, our brain is
becoming more plastic. So literally it's allowing your brain cells
to grow new connections that then you can encode what
you're experience in the last what you're experiencing in a
lasting way.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Wow, these are neural pathways.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
Your neurons are physically growing, they're physically grow extensions temporarily,
but then you can make them last.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
The belief used to be right the brain couldn't change
or heal. When did in research time was this discovery made.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Yeah, I think broadly over the past twenty years is
slowly being growing in recognition that it's possible. But I
think with psycondalics in the last ten years it's shown like, wow,
we can really boost this in a reliable way, in
a way that's potent and that last, and that could
be used for therapy. That's relatively recent in the past
decade that's really taken off.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
The realization that the brain has a remarkable ability to
actually adapt. You got to get past that trauma, so
you have to be able to tolerate it, adapt and
then heal. I mean wow, And isn't it a little paradoxical,
(18:02):
Like the brain doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily wired over
time to adapt. It's more it likes structure, it likes
it likes certainty, not so much uncertainty. So that's how
our pathways become cemented or habitual patterns happen.
Speaker 5 (18:24):
Yes, I love that you brought this up, because the
brain really is in the business of trying to make
our lives as automated and as easy as possible, right,
so it's get stuck in these patterns which it thinks, Oh,
it makes living easier because it makes you certain, I'm
gonna into this environment, I'm gonna be needed, needed to
act in this way.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And this is what works. This is how I am,
this is how the world is.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
But what's interesting, and there's there's a lot more research
emerging these days suggesting that the more rigid we are
in our ways, the worst our mental health. The worst
are resilience, right, the worst our adaptability.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
And so I think.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
The cornerstone of mental health and emotional resilience is flexibility,
flexibility in our thoughts, in who we think we are
and what we believe about the world, and always being
open to changing and growing. I and that's one of
the biggest markers of mental health and flourishing overall.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
How do we have innovation, how do we get past traumas?
How do we even just have conversations if we're on
two different sides? I mean, to be able to have
a conversation with you. There's many people I know who
will not even listen to me. They're going to just
say no and no, oh Maria, cannabis psychedelic, what are
(19:42):
you crazy? LSD people jumping at and well, okay, well
maybe you could use some little flexibility and expand your brain.
There's a time and place for structure. But is that
why they'll say for older people, it's very important to
get comfortable with the uncomfortable, learn a new language, pick
(20:06):
up an instrument. Is that where that comes in for
older people certainly?
Speaker 5 (20:12):
And those things you just mentioned help boost neuroplasticity, So
to keep your brain plastic and nimble, you know, some
of the most important things you can do are seek
out new experiences, learn new skills, learn language, learn an instrument.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
It's never too late.
Speaker 5 (20:27):
Also, one of the biggest boosters in neuroplasticity is endurance exercise,
whether that's swimming, cycling, jogging, even brisk walks. During that
for half an hour, let's say, three to four times
a week, is really it make wonders for people's brain
health and mental health.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
In terms of cannabis, can you tell us a little
bit of heard like the mother of all cannabinoids now
is being coined CpG, and I know that there see
the prohibition limits research, but it's exciting. With more acceptance
and with more legalization, you could speak to whether the
barriers of research are coming down. And if you could
(21:09):
tell me a little bit about the research on CBG
or how certain cannabinoids affect the brain.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Certainly, and so cannabis, as you were saying earlier, has
a whole variety of different compounds within it. It's not
just TC, which is what we usually associate it with
because that's what gives the typical high we associate with cannabis.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
And not to interrupt you, maybe you could just explain
the difference as well THC before it is heated up,
it's actually in its raw form THCA is that correct?
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Right? It is correct?
Speaker 5 (21:43):
Yet TCA when warmed up, when heat it turns into GC.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yes, which has so even only THC has the psychotropic effect.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, certainly.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
And the three cannabinoids, as are called cannabinoids, are just
cannabis molecules, molecules that occur on the canvas plant. The
most popular ones that are studied and looked at for
their benefits and effects are THHC, which we just mentioned, CBD,
and then CBG, which he also briefly mentioned, and so
I guess walk through each of these really briefly. So
(22:18):
THHC is the compound you know that makes people high,
it makes people stoned. That's what people associate with cannabis.
And this has the typical effects, and in addition to that.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
It can also.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
It's often obviously in many people know, it's used to
believe anxiety. In lower doses, particularly, it can really calm
people's anxiety and also help with things like chronic pain.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
And that's tc.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
But then also CBD is also potently reduced as anxiety
and has been found in studies to do that. Studies
have also found that it could be antidepressant and not
only that it's also anti inflammatory, so people even with
arthritis and different inflammatory conditions are experiencing relief from CBD.
Not to mention also its effects for reducing epileptic seizures,
(23:09):
so reducing seizures for people with epilepsy, and it's actually
FDA approved for that. It is a compound CBD based
drug that does that. So CBD has no psychological effects acutely,
like here, it doesn't make you high, but behind the
scenes of our biology, through our endocannabinoid system, which I
could talk about, is actually has all these different health benefits.
(23:31):
And then the last one is CBG which is a
kind of simpler molecule than CBD or GATZ and actually
is you know, can be considered a precurstor of them.
It can turn into them with different steps, and that's
also very much involved in reducing inflammation. It modulates our
immune system, and it also relieves oxidative stress, meaning it's
(23:55):
an antioxidant, which again it means it clears up cellular
damag and it's healthy for ourselves as well throughout our bodies.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Now, cannabis has a rougher road. I think you can
answer this in terms of research.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Yes, certainly.
Speaker 5 (24:11):
Yeah, there's a lot more research on magic mushrooms than
cannabis these days.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
There are actual peer reviewed studies for cannabis on those indications,
which is that correct?
Speaker 5 (24:24):
Yes, certainly, these are the most rigorous randomalized controlled trials
don esteemed institutions with cannabis and for psychedelics for that matter.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Great, and on our show page will list references for
our listeners. Yes, for anti seizures EPI dialects, CBD is
used in EPI dialects pharmaceutical drug, which that'll be a
whole other episode has caused quite confusion because once the
FDA approved it as an ingredient and a prescription drug,
(24:56):
they didn't speak to it as an ingredient in food
or in supplements, which is holding things up when it
comes to food and supplements. Do you believe even though
CBD is an ingredient in a pharmaceutical drug such as
EPI dialects for seizures, do you believe there is an
(25:16):
OTC and over the counter use for I mean yes, right,
it should be available when tinctures, gummies, topicals one hundred.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
I think they're trying to monopolize by making it into
a psychiatric drug that they could profit off of in patent.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
It's an ip play.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
It's you know, it's really just a psychiatry pharmaceutical play, that's.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
What that is.
Speaker 5 (25:40):
I think CBDs should be widely available in a variety
of different forms. It's non psychoactive, it's not addictive, if
it's not harmful outright for the you know, brain or body,
if anything is really beneficial for it when used in
the reasonable doses. And so there's no reason why it
should be outlowed the way it should be.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
This doesn't make any scientist makes sense.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Follow the money. I mean, we go all the way
back to the nineteen thirty seven Marijuana Tax Act, before
they probably even knew there was an endocannabinoid system, and
back when Eli Lilly was actually growing marijuana, and before
we turned to Pompey. But that's a whole other episode
on we'll get on talk about opioids. But and even
(26:26):
the US government held the patent on CBD from around
right just recently expired, and the indication was as a neuroprotectant.
So there's a lot of misinformation out there, and there's
a lot of conversation for us to spark. But you know,
(26:49):
so many people justifiably are concerned about potential risks, you know,
of cannabis and on psychedelics, and they talk about maybe
you could just speak to are they addictive?
Speaker 5 (27:06):
Right, so we could start there. Yeah, for we could
start with magic mushrooms really quick.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
The answer is no.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
There's no evidence that they create physical dependence or psychological
dependence in nine to nine percent of cases. And just
the nature of the way the drug works is you
can't really take it twice in a week in a
high dose because you could get tolerance really fast. And
also the effects are so intense and somewhat unpredictable.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
You don't know if you're going to have this, you know.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Blissful euphoric experience of laughing versus processing sadness you didn't
process when you're seven years old, right, You don't know
which direction is can to go necessarily, and so it's
hard to get addicted to that because you're not chasing
a high. It doesn't give you a high, it gives
you a profoundly variable experience.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
So that's why magic mushrooms are really unique. For cannabis.
Speaker 5 (27:58):
There's some potential for to be habit forming and addictive,
but much less than nicotine, less than alcohol, and so,
which is to say, like, we normalize alcohol and nicotine
a lot, and we deemonize cannabis when it's less toxic,
less harmful, and less addictive. But other of us would say,
like there is some potential for addictiveness with cannabis, as
(28:20):
people often will use it to self medicating anxiety and pain,
and anything that you're using to self medicate some kind
of suffering can be addictive. Whether that's food, it could
be exercised, it could be reading, it could be learning,
it could be anything could be addictive.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Workaholic, TikTok, social media, I get couch locked by Netflix.
I'm not worried about cannabis one thing that, but you're right,
because it's anything that's treating I'm a chronic back pain
suffer having had four massive spinal surgeries and anything that
(28:58):
you think, you anything that it's just this the they're
just they're not getting to the root. It's just treating
the symptom. It's gonna become addictive, whether it's physically addictive
or actually addictive in your brain, it's gonna become addictive
because you're you're taking care of the symptom. And when
the pain comes back, that's that's unpleasant. So you want more,
(29:21):
and you want more, and you want more. But you know,
the ability to change the actual physiology of your brain
and work through a trauma, adapt and heal and learn,
learn to become adaptable. That's I mean, wow. I mean
(29:41):
the impact on the world cannabis is smoked. Is smoking
for mushrooms a form of consumption or not?
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Typically no, So mushrooms usually you would just eat them,
or people will make a tea out of them, that's
also quite popular, or.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
To spake them into chocolate or it's fake goods.
Speaker 5 (30:01):
So but you consume it orally as we say, like
through your mouth, through your you know, digestive system, and
obviously cannabis can be consumed that way as well. And
I think you know, for cannabis, yes, like smoking and
combusting plant material can be you know, can irritate your
lungs of course, and so, but there's a whole variety
of ways outside of that, whether it's bay priizing it,
(30:22):
which is probably the better way to consume the herb,
as well as edibles or tinctures or lozenges that go
under your tongue. There's a variety of ways of consuming
cannabis without smoking.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
It is there emerging research on combining uh are silo
cybin and cannabis or psychedelic mushrooms and cannabis. Do they
have opposite effects or can they be complementary?
Speaker 5 (30:49):
Right, It's an interesting question, and you know, the scientists
and me has to say, we don't know yet. There
those studies haven't been conducted. Obviously, a lot of people
out in the world do combine them in different ways,
and it's not like taking a stimulant and smoking cannabis.
It's kind of conflicting a little bit. I think cannabis
can potentially complement psychedelics if you use in the right
(31:11):
way at the right point in the experience to help
ground people, get them back in their.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
Body, relieve any anxiety and so on.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
But at the same time, smoking too much, especially high
tech sea strains while under a psychedelic could potentially lead
to more anxiety and potentially even paranoia. And so there
are risks and it's kind of a sensitive thing to
combine these two or really to combine any drugs that
are psychoactive is always a bit of a risk and
something to be handled sensitively. But I think if we
(31:44):
zoom forward ten years from now or twenty years and
where this is being studied, I think there will be
a use case for help for cannabis helping regulate people's
anxiety and help them move through potentially difficult emotions during
a psychedelic experience.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I hope we can have that emerging research. What are
the most promising findings in the work and research you're
doing in the lab and can you tell us a
little bit about the lab and about Robin for sure.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
So, as you've mentioned, I work at UCSF University of California,
San Francisco, and my supervisor is doctor Robin called Hardharris,
and he's a major pioneer in the space, published over
the hundreds of papers, and he did the first ever
modern study using psilocybin mushrooms for depression and also the
first ever brain imaging studies of psilocybin and LSD and DMT,
(32:37):
two other psychedelics. And so he's a world recognized leader
in the space. And I actually moved to San Francisco
to work with him directly. I've known him for years
and we're doing a variety of studies at the cutting
edge of how psilocybin affects the brain, and in particular,
one of our studies now we're looking at we're trying
to see how different people, different people's brains respond in
(32:59):
different ways and and how that we might use that
to predict whether they're going to get better or what
the long term effects for them is going to be.
For example, we want to say, by measuring your brain
now and seeing how it relaxes reacts to psilocybin dury
in the experience, we know that we can we know
whether in six months or a year from now you're
going to do doing better or the same or potentially
(33:22):
even worse. And we're trying to create these models to
do that based on the brain.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Very very very exciting. And if someone wanted to explore
the possibility of working with a neuroscientist or a psychiatrist,
are there many trained in this type of using magic
mushrooms in there there in their psychiatric practices in the
(33:49):
United States.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, it's a good question. I think this to start there.
Speaker 5 (33:54):
I think it's important to recognize the legal status of
mushrooms right because they are federally illegal their schedule. However,
there are places where there are a number of a
growing number.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Of cities where it's decriminalized.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
And so yeah, so you can access it, you could
be gifted it and possess it and use it without
being criminalized, without being without it being illegal, and so
that is possible, and there are certain states leading the charge. Actually,
so Oregon has state approved psilocybin service centers where you
(34:27):
can do legal psilocybin therapy.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
You could literally drive into.
Speaker 5 (34:31):
Oregon, flying there whatever and do legal psilocybin therapy. Today
people are doing it, and Colorado is also they they've proved,
proved approved a bill for it as well, and so
there in the middle of that, and I've actually interfaced
with a lot of practitioners and organizations doing trainings for
practitioners and I've supported them in Colorado to help bring
(34:54):
that in. So there are places in the States to
do that, and also places like Jamaica, for examp sal
sabn rushioms were never illegal in Jamaica and there's tons
of retreat centers. People fly out to do psilocybin in
Jamaica as well, for example. So so to answer your
first question whether there are people training in this, there
(35:15):
are thousands and thousands of people training in the States.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
You know, a lot of.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
Them do it kind of you know, underground, and some
of them do it in these legal, sanctioned places where
it's either decriminalized or legal in the States.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, I don't know. I think our brains as a
society have to be expanded because in mental health, if
you look at the history we you know, we're drilling
holes in people's heads and trying to do a lobotomy
and that was okay legal. Are they still they're still
(35:51):
doing electroshock therapy in the United States? Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (35:55):
Yeah, they do it as the last resort. Yeah, it's funny.
It's funny. There was a as a side story in Canada.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
So I'm Canadian originally from Canada.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
And so in Canada, we have a way through the
government to give compassionate access to psio cyber therapy. Actually,
but in order to qualify for it, you needn't have
a depression that didn't respond to at least two or
three antidepressant medications, and in most cases they ask you
to try electrical bolsive therapy first, which is absurd.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It's like to be able to be.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
Suitable to try this natural incurring mushroom in a therapeutic setting,
you have to be shocked first, and that has to
not work in order to get there.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
It's just absurd. It's quite ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
What and I don't look, some people only have certain
therapies available to them or maybe even benefit. But what
does electroshock therapy due to the brain? Can you just
explain that?
Speaker 3 (36:58):
You know what is really interesting?
Speaker 5 (36:59):
Actually it through stressing the brain and overstimulating it, it
actually boosts neuroplasticity. It's kind of wild. So there is
there is reasons why it seems to work, not beyond
just you know, something barbaric and so interesting enough.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
By zapping it, your stimulating.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Activity and it gets your brain to release all sorts
of things to comment that, so it could potentially be
anti inflammatory is the brain response to it. But it
also upregulates neuroplasticity. It shocks neurons into activating a lot
and increasing their plasticity.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
So there is some sense.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
To it, all right, But you know, I, you know,
I used to go to chiropractors who would do a
very aggressive crack. But if there's a gentler modality, I
try to seek out the ones that kind of work
(37:58):
the muscles and then the spot I'll just kind of
go back into. You know, Chandler modality is less invasive
my goodness.
Speaker 5 (38:07):
Yeah, but okay, and ECT is not necessarily helping people
work through their trauma. You know, it's not working through
their emotions. You're just being zapped artificially into feeling better.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
I've heard it could help break habitual patterns, and one
of those could be smoking or improving your diet, drinking
less alcohol for pain management, you mentioned, But do you
have any kind of real life examples or stories or
have you yourself experienced a positive benefit?
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Certainly, so we can start there.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
I suppose like me many years ago as a teenager actually,
which you know, we can get into the whole adolescence thing.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
But I think one of you know done.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
For me is it allowed me to view myself and
my life in a new way. So at the time
I was, you know, younger, I was suffering from a
bit of bullying.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
I was didn't really.
Speaker 5 (39:10):
Know myself too well, and myself esteem wasn't the highest.
And psilocybin mushrooms allow me to kind of see beyond
that limited perspective I was having see my strengths and
see my life in a new light. It actually inspired
me to become a neuroscientist. It inspired me to pursue
a path of knowledge and learning. Actually, I know that
does that doesn't happen to everybody necessarily as a teenager
(39:33):
doing these things, but it really inspired the deep curiosity,
curiosity and connection to a love for learning.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
And so I made that impact for me.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So for you, it was a gateway to a doctoral
post doctoral leading edge research, pioneering and maybe having this
fantastic disruptive effect on in a good way, on helping
improve people's lives. I appreciate your sharing that with me.
(40:05):
That to me is better than any case study. I mean,
you know, anecdotal evidence, we have a lot of it.
What do you as a scientist, how do you place
value on anecdotal evidence? What do you think?
Speaker 5 (40:18):
I think there's a lot of value in considering these
case studies. You know, I mentioned myself, but I've heard
countless people who overcame addictions or alcoholism or their depression,
or seen that in loved ones and so on and well,
these of course don't qualify as scientific evidence per se,
but they tell us that there's something there.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
It's not all you know, there's something.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
To being covered and understood, and so for me, these
case studies provide hypotheses and ideas that then could be
studied in more controlled studies.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
And that's exactly what we do.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
You can't deny it it you know, seeing is believing,
and you and I come to it. We're drawn to
these natural substances when and western medicine just didn't have
a good solution. And I mean, thank god you found
it as an adolescent and got what you needed. But
(41:12):
how wonderful if it could be normalized and just the
standard treatment that doctors weren't fearful to discuss. Does mindfulness
that affect your neuroplasticity?
Speaker 3 (41:29):
It's a good question, very likely.
Speaker 5 (41:31):
I'm not sure if those studies necessarily have been conducted
because I can get into all the scientific details on why.
It's a bit hard to study. But I think mindfulness
really does dovetail well with both cannabis and psychedelics, and
it does certainly change your brain over time and allow
you to regulate your anxiety and your emotions in a
(41:51):
better way and just to be a more grounded individual.
I have a daily meditation in myiness practitioner and I
have been since I was like nineteen years old, so
I've always prioritized the daily practice and it's definitely being
transformative for me.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
You're a young man but an old soul, and uh,
don't go anywhere everybody unless you're driving, because when we
come back, we're gonna debunk outdated myths and stereotypes and
our nipping in the bud segment after this quick word
from our sponsor.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
Some say age is a state of mind until you
get those nagging pains in places you didn't even know existed.
Fifty is the new four twenty greenbeelife dot com. You're
leaving cannabis media brand, changing away the world sees green.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Hey, welcome back. You're listening to Just Say No. I'm
your host, Maria Calabreys. I'm discussing natural ways to unlock
our brain's potential with psychedelic neuroscientist doctor Minesh gern On
KCAA Radio ten fifty AM one oh six point five FM.
So now we're gonna we're gonna nip it in the bud.
(43:13):
We're gonna break some stigmas and look forward. So cannabis
myths versus reality, psychedelic myths versus reality, so many myths
around in cannabis and psychedelic use. What are some of
the common misconceptions you've encountered and can you debunk them
(43:34):
with what the research says.
Speaker 5 (43:37):
Certainly, so, let's start with cannabis. So one of the
most common ones, and we were talking about this before
the show started as well, is the idea of cannabis
as a gateway drug.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Now. I heard this growing up, a lot of people did.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
It's a part of basically drug war propaganda essentially, is
what it is. And there's no evidence in the epidemiological
studies a large scales these studies that that's the case.
The things that lead cannabis to that get cannabis to
lead to other drug use are related to your social environment,
(44:09):
socioeconomic status, all these different factors, social factors, and cultural factors.
It's there's no evidence that cannabis use alone leads people
to try other drugs. Often it's a gateway to your
fridge or gateway to you know, buying a bunch of
snacks from your local seven to eleven or something. There's
no evidence that people smoke cannabis and then automatically go
(44:32):
on to, you know, try heroin or cocaine.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Or anything.
Speaker 5 (44:36):
Those are radically different compounds, and I think that's just
a myth that should really does not exist anymore, but
people seem to still believe it, but there's no evidence
for it.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
A big part of that is because they're both classified
it legally as scheduled one.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yeah, which is absurd.
Speaker 5 (44:53):
And this is really funny, Maria, because you mentioned earlier
the US had a patent on the medicinal use of
cannabinoids going back to decades, while at the same time
the FDA was saying and dea it's schedule on it's
no potential for medical use and high abuse potential when
they had a patent showing that it's not that, you know,
(45:15):
it's absurd as.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
In door protected. And they weren't allowing the NFL and
the football players.
Speaker 5 (45:21):
My god, yeah, who could have really benefit that from
concussion recovery And that's the topic we didn't talk about,
but cbd is can be really helpful for you know,
recovery from a rain injury or a stroke for that matter.
There's studies on this, so it's it's quite terrible to
be it's like anti scientific, very politically and racially motivated.
(45:45):
We didn't get into the drug war. But there's all
sorts of nonsense around that.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Follow the money. But guys, don't, just I think the
first step. Don't have to go out and try magic
mushrooms or go into therapy or even try cannabis, but
just try to I I applaud everyone who's listening because
you're you're converting n O to k n OW and
(46:12):
hopefully this knowledge will be useful because honestly, until people
say enough is enough and complain right, all politics is local.
You got to start on the local level the constituents
if they start demanding some better healthcare. Only then will
(46:32):
the politicians listen. And it's all politically motivated, and oh,
it's just bad medicine, bad medicine, and it's it's, it's
it's it's frustrating, but and it's nobody's fault to to
have the perceptions you have. But this conversation and just
listening to it is an opportunity to let's uh, let's
(46:54):
all go for a jog afterwards and expand our brains. So, yeah,
dangerous toxic substance or powerful natural medicine sounds like it's
a powerful natural medicine and it's a gateway to greater understanding,
greater empathy, greater adaptability. The planet's just getting more and
(47:17):
more people on it if we can't adapt and to
exercise some flexibility.
Speaker 5 (47:23):
So another one is that then this is a nuanced one,
but the idea that cannabis damages your brain. So I've
looked personally at a lot of research literature on how
brain imaging has shown differences in the brain as results
of cannabis use. And this is actually something that mean
and a friend of mine, he's a Stanford MD, where
(47:44):
can publish this in a paper.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
Actually hopeful in the next six months or so.
Speaker 5 (47:47):
We reviewed every study ever done on whether cannabis use
changes the structure of our brain, and we found is
that a lot of studies found increases size in certain
brain regions, a lot of studies found decreased size in
a lot of brain regions. When we bring them all together,
they cancel each other out. So what that means is this,
(48:10):
it's a mess of research that there's no conclusions that
can be drawn on actual structural changes that last in
your brain as a result of cannabis use. And in
terms of like what that means from brain damage, it
means there's no reliable effect. And if we could say anything,
it's that heavy chronic use in adolescence likely does cause
(48:34):
potentially damage or developmental changes in the way, you know,
impairments in the way that the brain might develop in
certain ways, and that service factor. I would certainly not
advocate for a heavy chronic use in teenagers or early.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Adults for that matter.
Speaker 5 (48:48):
It's all about moderation, and the research does it that
suggests that using it at reasonable dosages, not every day,
but in a moderate way has.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
Minimal to know harmful effects.
Speaker 5 (49:00):
There's no evidence that that damage the brain damages the
brain per se and in fact, as we've been saying,
depending on the strain, especially if it's a high CVD
ratio strain, it can be even good for the brain.
It can even be anti inflammatory and antioxidant, which are
the two things that basically mean neuroprotectant and protecting the
health of your neurons.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
And so it's a nuanced topic.
Speaker 5 (49:22):
I think the idea that oh, you're gonna smoke cannabis
is going to damage your brain is not true. It
can only potentially be true in extreme circumstances for young
people teenagers smoking a lot. But it's a lot more
nuanced than that, and the research is very messy.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
And even god forbid, if you're younger and you're struck
with a terrible, terrible disease or like it's being you know,
a god forbid cancer, you have a pediatric case and
you start using Rick Simpson oil or high THC. Again,
if it's I mean, I don't know, I don't know
(49:59):
what this study show of the effect if someone has
a medical reason to take high strains. But even then,
like it would probably be microdosed and a tolerance would
be built, then it would be monitored, so it would
come down to responsible use.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
I would think, yeah, I think everything in moderation, right.
Speaker 5 (50:19):
And something I want to add here actually important is
that if you look at the effects of alcohol in
the brain, the amount of brain damage that alcohol creates,
whether you're an adult or an adolescence, is far far
greater than cannabis because alcohol is directly neurotoxic.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
Cannabis isn't.
Speaker 5 (50:37):
Cannabis over time will create changes in your brain and
you know, in a more subtle way, whereas alcohol.
Speaker 3 (50:44):
Which every nineteen year old or whatever, nineteen twenty one.
Speaker 5 (50:47):
Year old they're binge drinking out there, they're partying with
their friends, they're doing all these things, which is terrible,
and that that the amount of lifelong brain damage that
happens to like ninety percent of you who drink like
that is, you know, is massive, and it's like it's
so culturally sanctioned. Yet we're demonizing cannabis use, which you know,
(51:09):
in order to even if you smoke chronic heavy cannabis
as a nineteen year old, it's not gonna be as
harmful as chronic bing drinking for your brain. And people
don't realize this because again there's all sorts of uh,
misinformation and stigma around cannabis.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
So Willie Nelson's ninety one years old, and I could say,
I don't know how many decades he's been smoking cannabis,
but many decades, and thank god it wasn't alcohol. I
don't know if he'd be here for his ninety first birthday,
let alone still doing concerts.
Speaker 5 (51:47):
Because alcohol also speeds up dementia and Alzheimer's and cognitive decline.
Alcohol does that in the way cannabis doesn't. Cannabis it
can even protect against that. CBD is used to help
with people with Alzheimer's. You're not going to prescribe somebody
vodka recovering from Alzheimer's, you know, or raw or whiskey
or what have you, that's going to exacerbate it. And
(52:09):
so these are important distinctions. There's so much cultural arbitrarity
around it, and just you know, you want to know
something promising, Maria. Actually, there are statistics amongst like gen
Zers and the younger generation, they're drinking less and less alcohol,
and in fact, people are you know, even going to
parties and taking small doses of magic mushrooms for example,
(52:31):
like microdoses as they're called, which is a tiny amount
which you're not really it's not really opponent experience, but
it can uplift your mood, it can might slightly change
your experience, and like mildly intoxicating, but definitely not like
alcohol and not harmful for the brain like alcohol.
Speaker 3 (52:48):
So I think amongst the young people.
Speaker 5 (52:49):
Who were born let's say late nineties even two thousands,
they're drinking much less than any generations previously, and so
there's a downward trend there. So they're they're growing up
so and we like culturally, we're growing up in certain cases,
and there's a lot of maturity around these things and
awareness that people who you know might have grown up
(53:11):
and we're an adult in the eighties with all the
nonsense I was peddled back then. Just you know, it's
hard because that's what you were taught growing up, and
so it's hard to question it, and there's resistance and fear.
But I think we need to be open to the
facts and what it's real and what the science is
telling us. Otherwise we're closing ourselves off from a potentially
extremely beneficial holistic resource for our health right which is
(53:35):
cannabis and magic mushrooms to some extent.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
And we're suffering as a society. We're in pain, We're
just not enjoying life when we could be just numbed
out getting medicated or drinking and then having the side
effects associated with that. There's a whole world out there
to discover and learn, but you know, and it's always balancing, right.
(54:04):
I think the hardest thing in parenting is setting healthy
limits and you know, not repressing the child, but you
want to protect them and to be able to let
go and let them explore and experiment. Bad things can happen,
So anthropologically we do we do for safety or try
(54:28):
to just say you know, no, don't go there or
you know, But I just I hope people will before
jumping to n try to no kayn ow. Just just
become curious about things. My husband's always telling me, I
don't know why. I mean, I have to take a
magic mushroom. Maybe I'll do that and we'll do another
(54:49):
episode and I'll tell you why. But no matter what
that guy says me jerk, I say no, no, I
don't know why. It's a defensiveness. It's a control thing, right,
but it's in there, Edie. He gave me a good exercise.
He said, could you try just saying maybe saying it's
(55:10):
they'd jumping right to know? Whenever I say something, how
about yeah maybe and then think about it. It's not
easy for me to do that.
Speaker 3 (55:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (55:23):
I mean, I love that you're sharing this, and you know,
it's like a real experience in a lot of cases
for me, I think a really important skill to cultivate
is a skepticism of your new jerk reactions and emotional responses.
Speaker 3 (55:38):
Right, It's like, oh, I feel yeah, you know I
feel this right now.
Speaker 5 (55:41):
I feel very averastive. This feels wrong, it feels bad.
Why do I feel that way. What if I just
sat with it? What if I just breathed like? What
if I question that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (55:50):
You know.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
As we wrap up today's episode of Just Saying No,
I hope we've managed to shed some light on the
potential of cannabis and psychedelics psilocybin as viable natural medicines
when used responsible Doctor Gern has guided us through the
science behind these substances, highlighting their unique role in mental
(56:15):
and brain health, particularly through harnessing neuroplasticity. Our brains have
a remarkable, remarkable ability to adapt and hal and heal,
to adapt and heal, So I mean, who can be
against that a gateway to being more adaptable and to healing. Hey,
(56:36):
sign me up. While these topics, though honestly they can
feel intimidating or even controversial, emerging research is revealing promising
benefits for those seeking natural alternatives to conventional treatments, or
when conventional treatments just don't have an answer. We've learned
(56:57):
that destigmatizing these medicines it's gonna require ongoing education and
inform dialogue like today's episode, by understanding how these substances
interact with our bodies and minds we can move beyond
the fears toward a more open, compassionate perspective on their potential,
(57:18):
which is documented. So let's keep the conversation going. I
encourage everyone to visit our website Greenbelife dot com, where
you can find educational programming on GBLTV and in our
greenbey Life Learning Center. There's articles, guides, Stay curious, continue
educating yourselves, and approach these topics with as my husband
(57:44):
likes to tell me to how to approach him, not
with him, No, yeah, maybe you know, Let's approach them
with an open mind and respect for the science. Before
we sign off, I'd also like to offer you too,
super valuable resources to further your understanding of applying the
(58:04):
knowledge we've learned from today's episode. Visit doctor Gern's website
at mnshgern dot com that's mensh M a n E
s h g I r n mneshgern dot com to
download a free guide Five Steps to Rewiring your Brain
with Psychedelics. This pdf offers practical insights into harnessing the
(58:28):
power of neuroplasticity and for those listeners or healthcare providers
wanting to take a deeper dive. Check out doctor Gern's
masterclash and ebook also at Meneshgern dot com Forward Slash Masterclass.
It's an excellent opportunity to learn from a leading pioneering
(58:51):
expert in this most critical field. Thank you for joining
us on Just Saying No today. Remember knowledge is powers,
especially when it comes to your health and well being.
Stay curious, stay informed, and always keep learning until next time.
This is Maria Calbury's encouraging you to just say no
(59:16):
with a k n OW. Let me tell you. Just
Say No is a green Bee Life presentation airing live
weekly on Friday afternoons from four to five pm Pacific
on KCA Radio and KCAA TV. Archived audio episodes are
(59:37):
on Greenbeelife, greenbelife dot com, iHeartRadio, Speaker, and most third
party major platforms. For archived videos, check them out on GBLTV,
on Greenbee Life YouTube, and Rumble. To follow us our
Instagram and Facebook is at Just Saying Know Radio. To
(01:00:02):
apply to be a guest on the show or for
sponsorship and advertising opportunities, go to
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