Kathleen Marden Saturday November 22nd 2025

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Gee's Crown.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Good evening from the Ozark Foothills in northeast Arkansas. I'm
Carl Richardson and this is Midnight Frequency Radio. Our guest
this evening is Kathleen Martin. Miss Martin's insatiable interest in
UFOs and et contact began in nineteen sixty one when
her aunt and uncle, Betty and Barney Hill, had a
close encounter and UFO abduction in New Hampshire White Mountains.

(00:49):
She was thirteen years old at the time. As a
family member, Kathleen gained first hand knowledge of Betty and
Barney's UFO encounters on the day they arrived home home,
and two days later she visited the Hills home and
examined a physical evidence. She has devoted years to the
painstaking investigation of the hills anomalous events and archial research

(01:12):
in their UFO abduction. As the trustee of Betty's estate,
she selected the files from Betty's collection that are now
housed in a permanent archive at the Milnie Special Collections Library,
UNH Library, University of New Hampshire, Durham, New Hampshire. She
was instrumental in the development of the State of New
Hemisphere historical marker to commemorate the Hills UFO Experience. Kathy

(01:37):
is the author and co author of several books. Her
best seller with scientific ufologist and lecturer Stanton T. Freeman
is Captured the Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience. They
co authored two additional books, Science Was Wrong, published in
Chinese and Fact Fiction and Flying Saucers. Her book with

(01:59):
Denise Stone, The Alien Abduction File, includes her investigation of
six intergenerational cases of ETS contact. Her fifth book, Extraterrestrial
Contact What to Do when You've Been Abducted is a
comprehensive guide on UFO abduction phenomenon and a self help
book for UFO abductees. In twenty twenty one, she updated

(02:22):
and authored new sections in the sixtieth anniversary edition of
Captured the Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience. She has
authored two additional of Forbidden Knowledge, A personal Journey from
any Abduction to Spiritual Transformation. As a scholar researcher, she
has conducted extensive research in physical online archives. She has

(02:44):
appeared as an on camera expert on dozens of television
and video productions and innumerable radio shows and podcasts. Additionally,
she has presented at conferences across the United States in
several foreign countries. Good evening, miss this morning, and welcome
to Midnight Frequency Radio. Could you give us a background

(03:05):
on Betty and Barney Hill's experience when it took place?

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Certainly I'd be delighted. I was thirteen when it happened.
And Betty and Barney had a close encounter with an
unconventional craft in the White Mountains of New Hampshire when
they were returning home from a vacation trip. And it
had occurred the previous evening, starting on September nineteen and

(03:33):
into the early morning hours of September twentieth. When they
arrived home, they carried their memories of a close encounter
with a silent, hovering unconventional craft. The craft had swooped
down after they had watched it for a period of

(03:56):
about a half hour to an hour at fairly close
range through Franconia Notch, which is a beautiful scenic area
in New Hampshire. And now they were south of the
notch when this craft swooped down, and Barney had to
stop the car in the middle of the road so
that he wouldn't be directly under the craft. He stepped

(04:20):
out with his binoculars. He looked up at this silent,
hovering disc shaped craft. It was no longer spinning or
rotating as it appeared to be doing earlier. And as
he looked up, he could see a row of windows

(04:40):
with kind of a bright, bluish white light behind those windows.
He was very perplexed because he did not believe that
this was true. He was a confirmed skeptic, and so
he looked at it. He stepped away from the car,

(05:03):
leaving his door open so that it was internally lighted.
The craft was now hovering about two hundred feet above him,
and when he stepped back, the craft crossed over the
road into an adjacent field, and it descended to in
about one hundred feet of Bonnie. He lifted the binoculars

(05:28):
to his eyes when he reached that field, and still
shaking his head and saying, this can't be real, but
it was, he looked up and he observed figures that
were dressed in black, shiny uniforms looking down at him. They,

(05:49):
according to Walter Webb's report, were quote somehow not human
close quote and Walter Webb was the first investigator from
the National Investigations Committee on aerial phenomena. On September twenty first,
they made a report to Peas Air Force Base. And

(06:11):
they made this report because my father's best friend had
advised Betty that the at PA's Air Force Base had
asked the police departments, and this was a police officer
to advise people to report any UFO sightings to them.

(06:35):
So Betty and Barney, being the good citizens that they were,
made this report the following day. But let's get back
to what Barney was observing, because this is all part
of his conscious recall. One remained at the window, the
others walked to what appeared to be some kind of
a panel. Their arms went up. He could now see

(06:59):
them from from the tops of their heads and their
arms to their knees. He told the officer at P's
Air Force Base that they were about the size of
a pencil held at arm's length. When the craft swooped down,
it was the size of full of not a full moon.

(07:22):
It was the size of a dinner plate held at
arm's length. Keep in mind that the full moon is
the size of an aspirin and held at arm's length,
so this was huge. It wasn't a distant star and
all of the evidence. The historical documents contained that information.

(07:43):
So Barney's looking up at these entities on the craft
and something starts to happen. Little red lights start to
slide out from the craft, just two of them on
fin like structures, and then something starts to drop down

(08:03):
from the bottom of the craft, and Barney immediately senses
that he is about to be captured. He pulls the
binoculars away from his eyes so forcefully that he breaks
the leather strap. He runs back to the car, screaming
to Betty that they have to get out of there

(08:24):
or they're going to be captured. Throws the binoculars onto
the seat of the car, gets in, and starts speeding
down the highway. Because as he was returning to the car,
he looked back and saw that that craft was now
moving in his direction, he told Benny to roll down

(08:44):
the window. She did. She looked up and all she
could see was blackness. Even though it was a bright
starlight night, the moon was about three quarters full, and
she was looking for lights, she didn't see lights. She
later realized that the craft was right over their vehicle

(09:08):
because within moments she and Barney heard a series of
five to seven code like buzzing sounds striking the trunk
of their vehicle, and when they heard this sound, they
could feel a vibration in their cars, kind of an

(09:29):
electrical sensation, and when this occurred, they began to lose
conscious awareness this moment by moment awareness that we have
when we are driving. The next thing they knew and
is if only a moment had passed. They were thirty

(09:49):
five miles down the highway, they heard a second series
of code like buzzing sounds, which returned them to full consciousness.
Betty said to Barney, now do you believe in flying saucers?
And Barney said, don't be ridiculous. I can make that sound.

(10:09):
That sounds like a dropped tuning fork, And so he
stopped the car. He drove it from one side of
the road to the other, and he could not reproduce
that sound. Betty, more than Barney, recalled find somehow finding
themselves on a dirt road lined with tall trees of

(10:33):
a roadblock of a fiery orb. They reported this in
their first reports, but they didn't know where or when
it occurred, so this was all very confusing to them.
They drove home, arriving a couple of hours later than
they had anticipated. When Betty checked her watch when they

(10:56):
arrived home, she realized that it wasn't even though she
wound it and Barney wound his when they were in Colbrook,
New Hampshire, about five minutes after ten, and it should
have continued running because now it was five sixteen. And

(11:17):
I know that five sixteen am I know that because
I have Betty's watch. I'm the trustee of her estate.
I set up her archival collection at the University of
New Hampshire, and that watch reads five sixteen. Because she
walked into the house and said it, not realizing that

(11:40):
it was permanently broken. It never ran again and it
still reads five sixteen. So she went to take off
her dress and she noticed that it was torn in
several places, mysteriously torn. The hen was torn down on
one side. The lining was torn from ways to hemline.

(12:02):
The zipper that ran along the back of the dress
was torn in this stitching along the zipper and also
the thick zipper fabric. This was all a great mystery,
but it was very unsettling to arrive home after having
this close encounter, and especially for Barney, who actually did

(12:24):
observe entities on board the craft that he told Walter
Webb that were somehow not human. This was very distressing.
Betty was curious. Barney told Betty not to mention it
to anyone because no good could come of it. Betty said,

(12:45):
you're not going to tell me what to do, and
she walked to the phone and she called my mother.
She had several calls with my mother, but I was
as a thirteen year old arriving home from school in
the afternoon, overheard their conversation. There had been no family interest.
As far as I knew, I'd never heard anyone in

(13:05):
the family talking about UFOs. But for the first time
I heard about this experience from my mother, who was
relaying what Betty said to me. Betty's major concern was
that that craft was so close to them that they
might have been contaminated. We had a neighbor who was

(13:27):
a physicist, and my mother was waiting for him to
return home from work so she could ask him what
Betty and Barney should do. They had already taken long
showers because they felt clammy and contaminated. When they arrived home,
they had left their suitcases outside. They had a picnic cooler.

(13:49):
They left that outside. They did not dare to take
their clothing into the house. Betty took the dress that
she was wearing, though, and when she saw that it
was torn, she placed it in her closet, knowing that
it needed to be repaired. Barney sent his clothing to

(14:10):
the cleaners, and so this went on. Betty went to
the Portsmouth Public Library and checked out a book, the
first book she'd ever read on the topic, according to
all the reports, and there was an address in that
book for the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. She

(14:34):
wrote a letter to them five days later, actually five
days six days from the time they arrived home. It
was September twenty six, nineteen sixty one. And in that
letter she described and actually sketched the erratic pattern that

(14:55):
the craft traveled in, and she mentioned that Barney had
walked into the field and through binoculars, had observed figures
on this craft that were dressed in black, shiny uniforms
and frightened him terribly. In fact, she was looking for

(15:17):
qualified psychiatrists to use hypnosis who could work with Barney
to help him to remember what he could not because
he had a mental block about what he had observed
in terms of any of the details of their features

(15:39):
or anything else on the craft. He described to Walter
Webb figures that reminded him of military officers in the
precision in which they moved, and that one appeared to
be wearing some kind of military cap on his head. However,

(16:02):
I have I'm a longtime investigator. I was the mutual
UFO Networks Director of Field Investigator Training for ten years.
I was their director and founder of the Abduction Research Team,
or it's now was the Experiencer Research Team, and eventually

(16:28):
came became that title and now it's the Resource Team.
But anyway, I did that for ten years as well.
I've worked on four studies, major studies on experiencers, looking
for what they have in common, and so I know

(16:49):
quite a bit about experiencers, how they react to all
of this, and so on and so forth. Barney grew
more and more distressed over time. Betty wanted answers. She's

(17:11):
like me. I mean, when I was a kid, my
favorite book was Nancy drew In. My favorite television show
was Perry Mason. Yes, so I was a girl detective,
you might say. And I began to look into this.
I was able to meet most of the investigators on

(17:32):
their case, and when I became an adult, I became
even more interested. I separated fact from fiction in the
case and spent years doing my own boots on the
ground investigation, plus reviewing all of the archival records and going,

(17:56):
for example, to the American Philosophical Society, the home of
the skeptics and disinformants files that sort of thing. But
to get back to Betty and Barney, they wanted this
to remain confidential. They were willing to talk to technical people,

(18:18):
to scientists, military officers. In fact, there was a naval
officer who was very supportive of them and was trying
to help Barney, especially to cope with what had happened.
But Barney eventually succumbed to bleeding ulcers. He wasn't able

(18:42):
to sleep. This was causing great distress for him, so
he ended up being referred to doctor Benjamin Simon, who
was a renowned psychiatrist who had developed his unique form
of deep trance hypnosis that wasccess successful in treating veterans
returning home from World War Two who were suffering from

(19:06):
shell shock and conversion hysteria, and so he was successful
in treating Barney through deep trans hypnosis. Betty wanted to
be hypnotized too. She was hypnotized, and doctor Simon made
sure that they could not share information by reins stating

(19:30):
amnesia at the end of each session. So he saw
them separately. One waited in a waiting room with bombastic
music playing while the other one was undergoing treatment. This
went on for a period of six months, which included
a couple of months of playing back their hypnosis tapes

(19:57):
that he had recorded off them. One could listen to
what the other one had said and to work through
any trauma that they had experienced, because under hypnosis, Betty
had been quite distressed as well. So sort of in
a nutshell, that's what happened. Stanton T. Friedman, nuclear physicist,

(20:23):
and I wrote the book Captured the Betty and Barney
Hill UFO Experience. I updated it. Stanton, of course passed
away in twenty nineteen, but I updated it for the
sixtieth anniversary because I've never stopped looking for evidence, and

(20:45):
there were scientists who have done further analysis of Betty's dress,
further analysis of the starmapp that Betty saw on the
craft with very interesting findings. So it's all in the book.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Barney never really won to come forward about any of
this didy.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
Neither Betty nor Barney wanted to go forward. And I'll
tell you why. They were known in the state of
New Hampshire for their political activities. Barney and Betty involved
in the NAACP, both locally and at the regional level.

(21:26):
Barney was legal redress, Betty was secretary. They were active
in the civil rights movement. They were also active in
doing good things in their community. They had set up
the Rockingham County Community Action Program with funding through the

(21:48):
Federal Office of Economic Opportunity, and Barney was given an
award from Sergeant Shriver because he was the chairman of
this commit Barney had been instrumental in setting up a
literacy program in New Hampshire and this was extraordinarily important

(22:11):
for voters who were illiterate because they could not vote
in that time frame. There was a literacy test, so
he received an award for that work. Betty was a
social worker for the State of New Hampshire and worked
in child welfare and adoption. Barney spoke around the state

(22:36):
regarding civil rights and equal rights, and Betty had a
long history as an advocate for civil rights. In fact,
way back when she was a sophomore in college, she
was the chairperson of a group of students who had

(22:58):
a committee through the church for interracial relations. So way
back when Betty was young, she was an advocate for
civil rights. If you want to go back further, my
grandfather was a selectman in the town of Kingston, New Hampshire.

(23:23):
He had been the chairman of the Board of Selectmen,
which is comparable to the position of mayor. As such,
although there was no formal police department in that timeframe,
my grandfather was a police officer and he had taken
Betty when she was a child to Ku Klux Klan

(23:46):
meeting because the clan had infiltrated that area of New Hampshire.
And as a police officer, he had infiltrated the clan
and was spying on their activities. And Betty remain how
my grandfather was holding her and said these are bad people.

(24:06):
So she had this training in the very beginning. My
grandparents were the welfare officers in the town of Kingston,
so needy people went to them. My grandmother was a
union organizer in that timeframe as well, so very politically
active family without an interest in UFOs or extraterrestrials, and

(24:32):
this just happened, and they wanted to continue with their activities,
their normal lives. But there was a violation of confidentiality
in nineteen sixty five that carried their story to the public,
and this was devastating to Betty and Barney.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
At what point did you decide to pursue this work
professionally rather than personally.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
It was in nineteen ninety one when I joined the
Mutual UFO Network and trained to become an investigator. I
had met other investigators who had investigated Betty's case, like
Robert Homan, C. D. Jackson, Walter Webb, Ben Simon, John Fuller,

(25:18):
who wrote the first book about them. I met him, had,
let's say, Jacques Vallet, many investigators who came and I
really admired their work and thought that I would like
to do this at some point in my life. So

(25:39):
I had a professional career, but I decided that I
wanted to investigate my aunt and uncle's case. So I
did that training with the Mutual UFO Network. It gave
me the skills to begin my formal investigation. Of course,
I'd heard about it for years and years I'd been
out with Betty. I interviewed Betty. She had been a

(26:06):
mentor on UFOs since nineteen eighty five or so, just
teaching me about the field and what was going on
in the field, what was real, what was not real,
that sort of thing. So it was nineteen ninety one
when I became my formal investigation of her case. I

(26:29):
began my boots on the ground investigation and over time
also looking into the archives that she had collected, and
then onto the physical archives in places like the American
Philosophical Society down in Philadelphia, John Fuller's collection in Boston, Massachusetts, etc.

(27:00):
So I was when Betty died. I didn't want to
I didn't let me qualify that. I didn't want to
speak publicly about my findings until Betty was deceased, and
when she died. I had been writing the book slowly

(27:22):
over time, but that is when I asked Stanton Friedman
if he would like to join me in authoring this book,
and so we worked together on it. I had things
that I wanted to say that I could not say
when Betty was alive because I was doing an unbiased investigation,

(27:46):
an unbiased study of their statements under hypnosis vis a
v dreams that Betty had had. I was skeptical about
what had happed actually happened, if there was a real abduction.
I knew there was something had happened to them because

(28:06):
of the damaged clothing, the spots on the trunk of
the car, which I saw two days after they returned home,
and much much more Barney's decline because of the stress
that this caused him. But so I was determined. My
background was in sociology and social work and then education,

(28:30):
and I was determined to get to the truth and
the answers. And I did this over many years. Our
book Captured was published in two thousand and seven, and
then I went on to write five more books, three
with Stanton Friedman, and continued to work delve more deeply

(28:55):
into this field and all aspects of it, even the
parts that are considered taboo in the UFO world.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Description of the aliens. Were they conventional grays or did
they have a different appearance?

Speaker 1 (29:13):
There were two types on the craft. One fit more
the description of the conventional three and a half to
four foot tell grays. They act as the police force,
you might say, and the assistants on the craft, but
they also have a voice. They might even be the supervisors.

(29:37):
And then there are the taller ones, whose heads were
more in proportion to their bodies than the smaller ones,
whose heads were very, very large in proportion to their bodies.
They had barrel chests, spindly arms and legs, dressed in black,

(30:00):
shiny uniforms. They had a slit for a mouth. They
were completely hairless. Their noses were fairly flat, with just
small upturned, sort of flared nostrils, large eyes that wrapped
around to the sides of their faces. There was an iris.

(30:26):
They did not see these black eyes on the taller ones.
They saw a dark iris and pupil, and then around
that they saw a little yellow where the white of
our eyes would be. But the iris was so large

(30:47):
that it took up most of that eye space. They
didn't have eyebrows, they didn't have ears, and they there
was a question about how they spoke, because Betty said
that they had communicated with her verbally and in English,

(31:10):
but Bonnie said that they communicated with him through thought,
and so there was this discrepancy that doctor Simon had
to work out because Betty had dreamed that they had

(31:30):
spoken to her in English. And so I'm also no longer,
but I am a retired hypnotherapist and quantum healing hypnosis practitioner.
I've also done scholarly studies on hypnosis, and so I
know a great deal about it. And I know that

(31:53):
some of Betty's dream material bled into those hypnosis sessions.
That something that I did not want to write about.
And then therefore I didn't speak before Betty was deceased,
but I do in my comparative analysis, I discovered that

(32:13):
this did occur, that perhaps Betty was letting dreams bleed
into her material. Barney had said had told doctor Simon
what he had heard from Betty of Betty's dreams, and
he had not heard all of Betty's dreams, but they

(32:34):
were in agreement pretty much from their own perspective. They
were examined in separate rooms on what had occurred now
in Betty's dreams. Those non humans looked pretty human. They
had black hair, they were about five and a half
feet tall. They looked, you know, they had normal human eyes, eyebrows,

(33:00):
miles with lips, ears. They were dressed in blue cadets,
uniforms and caps. Well, that's not what Betty and Barney
remembered under hypnosis.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
That's the first I've heard of that about the others. Yeah,
they look more human than alien. All right, we're going
to take our first break here and then we'll come
back right afternoon.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
This is Dark Matter News. I'm Joshua Stark. A mysterious
object reportedly crashed on public land just outside the boundary
of Area fifty one in Nevada. The incident is said
to have happened in late September, and according to locals
who monitor the area, the response was immediate and unusually intense.
Witnesses reported hearing radio traffic referring to an asset going down,

(34:25):
followed by military security vehicles and Clark County Sheriff's units
blocking access roads. A helicopter with a lift basket was
also observed near a staging area that included temporary equipment
and personnel support, suggesting a planned recovery operation. Local observers

(34:46):
who attempted to approach the area later found signs of
a crash site, including burnmarks beneath Joshua, trees, disturbed soil,
and tracks from heavy vehicles. Some debris was reportedly visible
before being covered. Within days, the site was graded over
with fresh dirt into indicating a second cleanup effort designed

(35:09):
to hide or protect what had fallen. The official explanation
provided by the military is that an unmanned aerial vehicle
malfunctioned and crashed, and that an investigation is ongoing into
possible tampering, including the presence of unrelated debris. However, those
who have followed aircraft testing near Area fifty one for

(35:32):
years argue that the rapid lockdown and thorough concealment are
not typical of routine UAV accidents. Some believe the object
may have been part of a classified next generation program,
potentially involving autonomous control systems. Catch up with us at
darkmatternews dot com.

Speaker 4 (35:54):
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(36:15):
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Speaker 3 (36:23):
New research from sociologists in Canada show that the belief
in the paranormal is far more common than many assume,
and a national survey conducted this year, about forty four
percent of Canadians said that they believe in at least
one paranormal phenomenon, including ghosts, spirits, haunted places, alien visitation,

(36:44):
or mysterious creatures like sasquatch. About one in four Canadians
say they've had what they interpret as a direct paranormal experience,
such as sensing presence or witnessing something they couldn't explain.
The study also found differences among age groups and genders.

(37:04):
Younger adults, especially those under thirty, were less likely to
believe in the paranormal, while older adults were more open
into the possibility. This is Dark Matter News.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
C H Right. Welcome back to midnight Frequency Radio with
our guest Chathlin Martin. What aspects of Betty and Barti's
experience have held up the strongest under scientific or investigative screw.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
First of all, the pink powdery substance on Betty's dress,
and of course the damage to Betty's dress the tears
in her dress that.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Many scientists have looked at her dress has undergone chemical
analysis several by several credentialed scientists. The first was at
the University of Cincinnati. Then we went on to another
chemical analysis by another company, and then Phyllis Budinger, who

(38:42):
is an analytical chemist. She had had her master's degree
in chemistry. She worked for bp Amco formerly Standard Oil
for thirty five years and was an analytical chemist of
very very good credentials. She did a very up chemical
evaluation of Betty's dress. Also, there was DNA analysis done

(39:10):
on Betty's dress in different parts. One of them showed
spider blood. Another in the area of her navel indicated, well,
it looked like blood, but it indicated that it was
Betty's DNA Well, the person who did the DNA analysis,
the scientists said that it could possibly have been sweat

(39:34):
from Betty's body, but there were no sweat stains elsewhere,
and we thought that it was interesting that it was
in the location of her navel where she remembered having
a needle inserted during her examination. So there's a possibility
there's a relationship there. For you know, you can you

(39:56):
can accept it or you can dismiss it. But there
were sweat stains elsewhere. There was spider blood elsewhere, probably
because it had been in the closet, or maybe because
she sat at a tip picnic table during her trip,
but that was part of it. All the scientists have said,
there is an It was anomalous. Their findings were anomalous

(40:21):
that they could not prove that there was alien DNA
on Betty's dress, but it was they found things that
were there that should not have been there. And the
most extraordinary analysis, I believe is the most recent one.

(40:42):
It was done in a chemistry department at another university.
Two professors with who were tenured thirty five over thirty
years experience, and a student. They were looking for elements
on Betty's dress and they found three rare elements. And

(41:05):
one of those rare elements is extraordinarily rare in the
Earth's crust and very expensive. It has a very high
melting point. And another one is not quite as rare,
but extraordinarily rare in the Earth's crust. And as I

(41:25):
was doing research on the findings from the report from
the chemists, I discovered that those two are now being
used in nanotechnology, and so it made me wonder if
those deposits came when Betty's dress was dropped on the
floor of this craft, and maybe the pink powdery substance

(41:51):
was on Betty's dress because it hit the floor and
these and also from the entities hands, because the parts
of her dress that were very heavily saturated with that
pink pottery substance were where either it touched the floor

(42:13):
or these entities had touched Betty Betty's dress. And so
I found that to be extraordinarily interesting as well. And
then we had the star map.

Speaker 5 (42:25):
Well.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
I was always extraordinarily skeptical about the star map, and
that's the reason that I asked Stanton Friedman to join me,
because he had vetted found scientists to vet Marjorie Fish's work.
He had vetted Marjorie initially and found that she was

(42:48):
extraordinarily bright and that she, he said, was better at
talking with scientists than with the general public. And this
was a star map that Betty had dreamed about and
then had described under hypnosis in her dreams. This starmp

(43:11):
was like a school map in a classroom paper map
that you pulled down over the chalkboard, but that was
not when Betty remembered under hypnosis. Under hypnosis, she remembered
asking the non human where he was from. She said,

(43:32):
I know you're not from around here was your home port?
And so he produced this star map by pulling something
out of the wall, and then it sort of went
up in front of her, almost like a screen that
she was looking through. It was three dimensional and there
were stars of various sizes and colors on the map,

(43:54):
ranging from the size of Nichols to just pinpoint. And
he gave Betty information regarding the stars on that map
that some that were connected by five solid lines were
trade routes, and one or two solid lines were also

(44:19):
trade routes, and then there were others that were connected
by broken lines, and they were just expeditions. So doctor
Simon gave Betty the post hypnotic suggestion that she could
go home and draw that map as long as she
could remember it accurately and it didn't trouble her too greatly.

(44:41):
She did that, and then it was published in the
first book that was ever written about their case. It
was an entirely accurate book. It was based primarily on
the hypnosis sessions but Betty star map was in that
book and Marjorie Fish saw it and she was skeptical,

(45:06):
but she decided that since she was an amateur astronomer,
she would go to the university and look at the
astronomical catalog. She had to hand copy all of the
characteristics of the nearby stars out fifty four light years
from our sun, and then she took them home. It

(45:32):
was before computers and home computers, and so she was
used building three dimensional models, constructing them out of frames
and using silk thread to on beads of various sizes
and colors. She had to do all the mathematical calculations

(45:55):
to know precisely where to put those on her three
dimensional models, and in all she built fourteen and still
didn't have a match. Then in nineteen seventy two she
went back to the university and a new catalog had
been published two or three years earlier that she wasn't

(46:18):
aware of, and this new catalog had different distance data
because we had made technological progress, and so she copied
that new distance data and she went back and began
to rearrange the stars in the models that she had

(46:40):
built out fifty four light years from the Sun in
all directions, and finally she had a match, and there
were special characteristics about this match of hers. On Betty's map,
all of the stars were sunlike, although only five percent

(47:02):
of the stars in our local galactic neighborhood are sun
like stars. Also, they're all in a plane, which means
that it would be easier for space fearing astronauts to
move from one star to the other. Stanton Friedman used

(47:22):
to say, like pepperoni on a pizza as opposed to
raisins in a thick loaf of raisin bread. They'd move
along a plane from one star system to another as
they traveled through space if they were in the early
stages of travel. And one of the astronomers who vetted

(47:44):
Marjorie's work made the comment that if we had developed
the ability to travel through space, this is precisely the
route that we would have taken from Zeta Reticuli up
to our star system. And so that was quite extraordinary

(48:06):
as well, and it convinced many scientists that her work
was accurate, and all of the scientists that Stanton asked
to vet her work stated that it was accurate. Of course,
there were skeptics who came forward and said it was
all nonsense. That you could throw marbles into a sandpile

(48:30):
and you could find a match, but it would not
be the kind of match that Marjorie found. There were
these special characteristics that I spoke.

Speaker 6 (48:40):
About, and so you know, there were the typical disinformants
and deniers who would deny anything regarding UFO abduction or
ET contact, even close encounters with UFOs.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
I would sort of expect that of them. Anyway, I
think that most people know who they were and who
they are today. So that was very, very interesting. And
then many years later a student contacted Stanton and in

(49:20):
twenty thirteen she had done another analysis of the starmap.
But now this astrophysics student had many, many more models
at a computer. So this was twenty over two twenty

(49:41):
two hundred and some models of our local galactic neighborhood.
And she was highly skeptical too. She didn't think she
was going to find a match, and she would thought
that Marjorie's work was not going to hold up. But
in the end she stated that she was a maze
that of all the models that she looked at, Marjorie's

(50:06):
was the closest match, and there might have been two
stars that were a better match for two of the
stars that Marjorie had identified. But this just added support
to the idea that Marjorie's work was accurate. And I've

(50:27):
heard and that Marjorie had apologized to Carl Sagan and
said that she was wrong. I remember it wasn't to
call Carl Sagan as far as Stanton and I knew.
Marjorie had never told Betty this. She had never told

(50:47):
any research or this, But this is what the disinformants say.
But anyway, Carl Sagan and others were saying that Zeta
reticular I could not be the home base because they're
a binary star system and there could not be a

(51:08):
stable orbit among planets in a binary star system. Well
that's what scientists thought in that timeframe. But they no
longer think that this data reticulate is one and two
are far enough apart that they could have planets in

(51:30):
a stable orbit. We know that today.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
How many UFO investigations have you done on other people's
sightings or abductions.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
No, I'm not a person who counts. I've done many.
I can say that I've worked with about five thousand
experiencers through my team on the studies that I have
done as a hypnotherapist, I worked with many, and I

(52:08):
would not do hypnosis on anyone whose case I had
not investigated, because I didn't want to risk giving anyone
false memories. And so into the thousands, maybe a thousand
or more, I would say I did many of those,

(52:29):
not for the mutual UFO network, but privately, because you know,
initially I started as a nuts and bolts investigator, but
then I realized that that's only a small part of
et contact of people who have had these experiences, that

(52:50):
there are there is phenomena that surround and there is
overlay on all of this, and those studies that I
worked on confirmed that, and so I really wanted to
get into the nitty gritty of all of this, and

(53:13):
so I had to do investigations that Muffon did not
approve of because I thought, you know, my motto is
if you don't seek, you will never find, and I
didn't care about being acceptable in terms of perceptual perceptions

(53:33):
of the UFO community. I was willing to move beyond
the traditional and go into the taboo, into the unorthodox
side of the studies because I wanted myself to have
a complete overview insight into all of this. Because there

(53:58):
is a paranormal overlay, experiencers undergo a transformative process where
they might become healers, or they might be healed, where
they receive information, where they might have a relationship with

(54:19):
these non humans who give them information and communicate with them.
The majority of experiencers I found, well over fifty percent
were intergenerational. Over fifty percent had observed what appeared to

(54:39):
be conscious orbs in their homes. Now not outside looking
into the sky, these were inside their homes, and sometimes
they expanded into non humans, and sometimes they simply communicated
with them. And in one of my cases qu extraordinary,

(55:01):
there was a man I'd been working with for several
years because when I did an investigation, it wasn't like
on a treadmill where you just do one after another.
I would stay with a person for years to as
they collected evidence and as they had more experiences, because
most people have taken more than one time. So in

(55:24):
this extraordinary case, the witness ended up developing cancer, and
I just said to him he was afraid he was
going to die. I said to him, you can ask
for healing, And so I taught him how to meditate

(55:45):
and just relax and send telepathic messages to his ets
and ask for healing. And he did that, and within
a couple of weeks he was able to take his
phone when he felt a presence in his bedroom at

(56:08):
night as he was lying in bed, and he was
able to video record an ORB that came into his
bedroom and slid down his wall and then flew almost
like a butterfly. It was morphing as it crossed the room,
it dove down into his body. He slept for about

(56:31):
twelve hours after this occurred. He sort of lost consciousness
and slept, and then when he awoke in the morning,
the very large nodes that were on the side of
his head had completely disappeared. By the time he went
in for surgery and had surgery, they removed tiny necrotic nose.

(57:01):
They were no longer cancers. They were dying. And this
was very extraordinary. There was a medical consultant involved in
this who collected all of his medical reports. I have
one of his medical reports, but we wanted a medical
doctor involved in this as well, and so this was

(57:24):
the first healing on video by a conscious orb. It
was beautiful. It was baby blue and it had kind
of an acrew colored center, and as it was about
to enter his body. Maybe it was the flight that
I could see, but it almost looked like it was

(57:45):
putting down little iridescent tendrils, and it dove down very quickly,
and he was healed.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
On the orb subject I had Peter daven poured on
a couple of weeks ago, and he was talking about
a car load of friends that were traveling and the
orbs came down and hovered around the vehicle, and then
they passed through the glass of the vehicle and one
of the occupants of the vehicle had had surgery on

(58:21):
his stomach, and the orbs kind of went to him
and hovered around his surgical area and then left and disappeared.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Did anything happen, Did it heal faster or anything or well?

Speaker 2 (58:42):
I asked mister Davenport. He said he didn't have any
further information after their encounter. Okay, So, but have you
worked with mister Davenport.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Yes, I know him. He's originally from New Hampshire like
I am.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
I know he's covered some interesting top coverage of the contacts.
We're gonna take our second break and we'll be right
back after that.

Speaker 3 (59:42):
This is dark Matter News. I'm Joshua Stark. A large
international study suggests that speaking more than one language might
help slow down the aging process. Where researchers examined data
from over eighty six thousand Europeans at age fifty one
to ninety and found that individuals who were uno lingual
had roughly double the risk of showing signs of accelerated

(01:00:05):
biological aging compared to those who spoke multiple languages. Conversely,
speaking two, three or more languages was linked with a
healthier aging profile. Experts believe that the benefit comes from
the cognitive challenge of managing and switching between languages, which
may keep the brain sharper and more resilient. The study

(01:00:29):
included controls for age, physical health, environment, and social factors,
yet the multi lingual advantage remained significant. Importantly, the findings
don't imply that you must become perfectly fluent in multiple
languages to see benefit. Even some multi lingual exposure appears helpful.

(01:00:51):
The authors say that this research has public health implications
in aging societies. Encouraging language learning and maintaining multi lingual
environments could be a cost effective strategy to improve cognitive health.
And delay decline in short learning languages isn't just a

(01:01:13):
cultural bonus. It may be a practical tool in the
fight against the ravages of aging. Dark Matter News is social.
Are you catch up with us on Facebook? X and
where you find your favorite social network? Also darkmatternews dot com.
That's it for dark Matter News. Catch up with us

(01:01:34):
on the Midnight Frequency Facebook page From Memphis, Tennessee. I'm
Joshua Stark.

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Speaker 5 (01:03:00):
The time done. So how's that?

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Welcome back to Midnight Frequency Radio with our guest Catherine Morten.
When you're investigating a report, how do you determine if
it's legit or they're just trying to pull the wool
over your eyes?

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Well, I decided a long time ago that I was
going to have a policy that everyone had to remain confidential,
that I was never going to publicize their case. And
so I would have conversations with people on a confidential basis,

(01:03:58):
and you know, just a conversation back and forth. They'd
tell me what had occurred, and then I would interrupt periodically.
I'd tell them that I wanted to do that if
I had a question, or I might hold my questions
until the end, depending upon how it was going, and

(01:04:20):
if I had something I needed to address immediately, and
then I wanted to know if they had any evidence,
and if they didn't have evidence, then all they needed
was basically support if they were having difficulty having had

(01:04:41):
this experience, and most people initially do experience trauma. It's
not like a great experience initially. They become accustomed to
it over time. But so I definitely did not want
to pass judge on them. I didn't want to give

(01:05:02):
a case disposition. If I realized that there was mental illness,
you know, it was just quietly, it quietly went away,
and they could get in touch with me periodically if
they didn't have any evidence. Then I even wrote a book,

(01:05:26):
Extraterrestrial Contact, What to Do when You've been Abducted, which
teaches people how to discover if their experiences are real,
because I think it's the individual has to collect their
evidence because I can't always get there to collect evidence,

(01:05:47):
and no field investigator could get there to collect evidence immediately,
and so much of it just fades away or is discarded.
So to collect photographs of evidence that they found on
their bodies. And also I had the idea that if

(01:06:12):
they were taken in clothing, that they could place that
clothing into a paper bag and put it into a
warm dark room for say a month, and then pull
it out to see what they see on it. We

(01:06:32):
developed protocols for the whole team on how to investigate
a UFO abduction and what to look for. What very
simple tools experiencers can purchase, like a magnetometer, like a

(01:06:54):
black light or review v light, so that when they
were taken, they could go into a dark room and
look at their bodies for any unusual markings and generally
they would end up being geometric pattern shapes. Now everyone

(01:07:15):
needs to know that a certain yeast fluoresces under a
black light. I was using a dermatologists level black light
uv light and that a dermatologist would use on the
genital area looking for yeast. So I'd let people know

(01:07:40):
that you know, and if you find something it's not
necessarily anomalous, it could there could be a conventional explanation,
such as any lotions or oils on their bodies, they
would fluoresce as well. So that was part of it.
It's more teaching people how to look for the evidence

(01:08:01):
and to stay in touch with me. I developed a
whole catalog of patterned marks, wounds that people found on
their bodies, puncture wounds or burns or that kind of
thing that I and my team kept cataloged. People started

(01:08:24):
to some not many photograph non human entities and portals
that they came through and I have not released most
of that either, but people have been wonderful in working
with me. I'm retired now, I'm no longer doing it.

(01:08:45):
But for many, many years I worked together with experiencers
and they knew that they were not going to receive
any publicity. I did mention a few in a book.
If they had a great deal of evidence, and you
know they which they owned, I had to get permission

(01:09:09):
to use it. I believe that they should own their evidence.
If they have an implant removed, they have to give
permission for it to be analyzed by a laboratory if
we can find one that to analyze it. So I
believe in experiencer rights. I'm not a person who is

(01:09:31):
going to treat an experiencer without respect, thinking that they're
just hoaxing. I treat them with respect and consideration and confidentiality,
and we work together. I find I used to find

(01:09:51):
vetted hypnotherapists or psychotherapists who worked with experiencers. These are
people who held licenses or certificates, were in private practice,
had insurance, and that individual could make the decision to
go to them for therapy, and they didn't have to

(01:10:14):
give me anything back. This was for them. So I mean,
I think I took that route because of the ridicule
of the harassment, of the harm that I saw being

(01:10:35):
done to experiences where these supposed blue ribbon panels were
supposedly objective and they would take someone and you know,
although Betty Cash and Vicky Landrum, for example, were not
taken to craft, they had an incredible encounter which left

(01:10:57):
them with serious burns radiation burns on their bodies. And
there was a blue ribbon panel set up and John Shusler,
who was a NASA scientist who I have a great
deal of respect with for he was at one time
the executive director of the mutual UFO network, and John

(01:11:22):
had done a very good, objective, unbiased investigation. But then
the debunkers set up a blue ribbon panel and they
were going to They claimed that they were the unbiased
ones and the UFO investigators were biased, so they thought

(01:11:45):
of themselves as being the objective ones, even though they
had a very dismissive attitude, And they ended up, in
my estimation, not only harming the researchers through their attacks,
harming Betty Cash and Vicky Landrum, slandering the women saying

(01:12:10):
that they probably laid templates down on their skin and
intentionally burned themselves, and that was in the report. I
could not stomach that kind of investigation where I saw
people being harmed and I refused to participate in it.

(01:12:33):
I would too, and that's why I worked with people
confidentially and with many many experiencers over many years.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Across all of your investigational encounters, were there any consistent
patterns that stood out?

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
Absolutely? And our studies indicated that as well. I have
statistics in fact where most had experienced some kind of
health problem related to contact. Fifty three percent of five

(01:13:16):
hundred and sixteen who were in our Muffon study muffon
ert study that we did with doctor Don C. Dunderi,
who from McGill University, who took part in phase two
of the study by administering a psychological measure that would

(01:13:38):
determine whether they had UFO abduction syndrome, whether they were
members of the general public who were hoaxing, or were
wannabes who knew a lot about the topic but did
not have the signature of being real UFO abductees. So

(01:13:58):
it was very well run investigation that we did over
a three year period. What we discovered is that forty
nine percent reported that they had not migraine headaches, forty
five percent experienced nosebleeds after an abduction, forty four percent

(01:14:18):
had chronic fatigue and immune dysfunction syndrome of a medical diagnosis,
whereas at that time it was less than one percent
in the general population. In the first study I'd worked on,
it was thirty four percent, but it was a smaller study.

(01:14:38):
This time, with many more participants, it was forty four percent.
We had different groups that Dunderry was. Doctor Donderry was
able to identify for us, so we had our experiencer
group and overall everyone who took part in the study,

(01:15:00):
and also the abductee group, those who had UFO abduction
syndrome and were closest to the target on this three
dimensional scale statistical scale, and forty five percent of those

(01:15:22):
who had UFO abduction syndrome had been healed. It was
ten percent with the overall experiencer group self identified, but
many of those I say self identified, but many of
those had been referred by our team members who believed
that they had had a real abduction or experience paranormal events.

(01:15:48):
Sixty one percent of the experiencers fifty percent of the abductees.
Were you going to say something, yeah, I was.

Speaker 2 (01:15:55):
Going to ask to the experiencers from different cultures described
similar for or are their major differences.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
Similar phenomena in terms of what happens when they're taken
to craft and also marks on their bodies are the
same around the world. Sometimes we see certain variations in those,

(01:16:27):
but you know it's happening around the world. In some
places there there's a higher frequency of a certain type
of entity. We were able to identify based on the
participants input that they they're seeing grays, two different types

(01:16:48):
of grays. They're seeing the human types next on the
scale that we think of as Nordics. They're seeing next
the insectoid types that we think of as mantis types.
I have many photographs of those. They're quite extraordinary to

(01:17:11):
look at, and they're kind of funny because they try
to disguise themselves in very strange ways, such as covering
themselves with Christmas lights when they come through a portal
in the wintertime, or there are other ways too, but
you can see their faces, you can see who it

(01:17:32):
really is before they exit that portal. You can see
them in the portal, you know. So, and also after that,
the basic is the reptilian type. So we have the
basic types, and then we have many many variations on
those types, different colors, different sizes, and different experience or

(01:17:55):
reactions to them. Some people are having positive experiences, and
in fact, even though most are traumatized in the beginning,
over seventy percent said that they would not want their
experiences to stop. So, you know, that was kind of

(01:18:17):
a surprise to us.

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
It would be to me.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
Yeah, And I was surprised that some people encountered friendly reptilians.
Even one had been healed by a reptilian. And our
scientist was able to do a study on the source

(01:18:42):
of what that the sample from that experiencer's body, and
the closest match to that was the reptile on this
planet who has DNA that is the closest to human DNA,
So like, what's that all about? Yeah, I was really

(01:19:06):
shocked by that. Also, sixty nine percent of the experience
or groups said that they had become more spiritual as
a result of their experiences, and among the abduct D group,
those with UFO abduction syndrome, eighty six percent said that
they had become more spiritual, which was amazing. Something that

(01:19:32):
I wanted to test that the team wanted to test
was conscious recall. Did you know you hear the deniers
say that, well, it's all sleep paralysis or hypnagogic or
hypnopompic dreams, hallucinations, and so we wanted to test that,

(01:19:57):
and we asked the question have you been do you
consciously recall? The first one was just have you had
this experience where you felt that non humans had come
in to your environment and you were paralyzed and were

(01:20:19):
able to move on only your eyes, and so the
majority said yes. But then we added the qualifier to
the next question, asking if they had been wide awake,
if they had conscious recall of observing non humans enter
their environment, and if then they had become paralyzed but

(01:20:45):
were not initially paralyzed because they remembered all of this observation.
And among the abductee group, a significant percentage, I can't
remember precisely what it was at this point, but significantly
significant percentage stated that yes, they were wide awake that

(01:21:11):
these entities entered their environment and it wasn't until after
they came into the environment that they were paralyzed.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Over the last decade, did you notice any shifts in
the nature of encounters.

Speaker 1 (01:21:26):
I absolutely did. People are taken to craft less frequently.
The modus operandi now is if they have to do
anything that they can do physically in a person's home,
they will simply through portals, go to that location and

(01:21:47):
do what they need to do. Also, for the advanced
experiencers who have had a relationship with these non humans
over a lifetime, these non humans will come into their
environment and communicate with them. They don't see them necessarily.

(01:22:09):
They might see an orb or they might simply see
a shimmering or maybe a shadow and or maybe nothing,
but they will feel a tingling sensation. It's kind of
an electrical tingling throughout their bodies, and they will hear

(01:22:29):
high pitched tones in their heads. And then if they relax,
they can receive a message and they can communicate with
these non humans. And one of the things that non
humans are communicating is they're telling experiences that the reason

(01:22:50):
that they are working with us, the reason they're doing
what they're doing, is that we are out of balance
as a species, that our spiritual development and our technological
progress are out of balance. And when this happens, where

(01:23:15):
the technological progress has advanced faster than the spiritual development,
it could lead the word is to the disintegration of
the species. And so they are here to raise spirituality,
to attempt to increase the spiritual nature of humans in

(01:23:41):
order to strike a balance so that we won't destroy
our planet and everything on it. They're also concerned, as
they have been, dating way back into the fifties, about
our use of nuclear weapons. And I think that you
look at Robert Sallus got all of the other military

(01:24:03):
men on nuclear bases in the United States, and you
know George Knapp's testimony before Congress about what happened in
Russia with UFOs coming in over nuclear bases either and
activating and then turning off nuclear weapons. They've been giving

(01:24:28):
that message for a very long long time.

Speaker 2 (01:24:32):
Yeah, there's been a lot of encounters with that.

Speaker 1 (01:24:35):
Yes, And they're also concerned about toxins in the human body,
the level of toxicity because of our sick environments and
because of you know, especially in the United States, the
terrible foods that we eat that are filled with chemicals
or that are food products rather than being real foods.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
Yeah, stay away from the process stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:25:03):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):
How do you respond to scientific skeptics You avoid them or.

Speaker 1 (01:25:11):
Depends depends on whether what kind of skeptic they are.
I mean, I approach anything from a skeptical point of view.
I don't let it show, but that's what I do
in order to be able to analyze what is occurring,

(01:25:32):
not only the person but the data. If it is
an open minded skeptic, then that is fine. But if
it is a closed minded skeptic whose purpose is to
uh destroy my reputation, uh and any any of my

(01:25:55):
work or my aunt and uncle's case, and there's a
whole lot of that going on. I'm not interested in
talking to them. I know what they're up to. I'm
not going to interact with a nasty person. But I've
talked to many scientists who are open minded.

Speaker 2 (01:26:16):
You spoke a minute ago about mister Knapp's testimony before Congress. Yes,
what's your perspective with the current government disclosure efforts?

Speaker 1 (01:26:30):
Well, I think that Congress has made a very good
effort to interview former military officers and even George Knapp.
Most recently under oath, the military has had a hissy fit.
They did not want further funding for the Office through

(01:26:55):
Defense Intelligence Agency as an taking an analytical view, looked
at this from all the way back when they had
as app to a tip, and then on through the
years as it was becoming more and more amorphous. I

(01:27:16):
knew what the military was doing. They didn't want to
face or have us think that there was physical evidence
of this, you know, such as the men have spoken
about UFO crashes, the recovery of non human biologics, that

(01:27:39):
kind of thing. Gary Nolan's work, Doctor Gary Nolan's work
on the brains of people who were in the military
who had had burns and injuries the result of their
close contact with craft. The military wants to dismiss all
of that. They've even found an explanation for the tic TAC,

(01:28:03):
which is a bogus explanation, you know. So they didn't
want further funding, and they didn't receive further funding for
twenty twenty six. I hope that Congress will continue that
because of the withdrawal of funding. They're not going to

(01:28:25):
end their congressional hearings. I'm afraid that they might. But
a lot was achieved, and last night I watched the
new movie that was just released and it's on Amazon Prime.

(01:28:46):
The price was nineteen ninety nine to watch it, twenty
four and ninety five if you wanted to purchase it.
And it's called The Age of Disclosure. And it was
a hard hit movie. They had more than twenty military witnesses,

(01:29:09):
people would have been military officers talking about their experiences
and their knowledge, and it was just one after another.
And that's why I said it's hard hitting. And they
get into the military intelligence agencies threats against witnesses, and

(01:29:32):
even how Lou Elizond there was a discussion about whether
or not Lou Alessando and David Grush were going to
be assassinated. They were under that kind of threat from
our own military, for whom they worked honorably, which was

(01:29:54):
I knew this, but to see it there after, you know,
it's kind of a pounding you get, even for people
who have been in the field as long as I have,
of one officer after another giving eyewitness testimony, people who

(01:30:14):
had high level positions in the government. Jim Semavan from
the CIA was there and giving testimony. And I say,
it was an excellent movie, but hold on to your seats.

Speaker 2 (01:30:30):
I'll have to check that one out. What kind of
disclosures do you think would actually matter to experiencers.

Speaker 1 (01:30:38):
I think that experiencers just want some validation overall, some acknowledgement.
I don't want to scare the general public. Most of
us don't want to frighten the public. We understand that.
But stop stocking experiencers, stop threatening experiencers, stop interfering with

(01:31:07):
their technology, you know, for the I once, I was
receiving a lot of complaints about this, so I did
just a small informal study on It was about twenty
people who were actually speaking publicly, either experiencers themselves or

(01:31:30):
people who are working in the field, as in the
field of UFOK abduction or et contact, and nineteen of
twenty said they had been threatened. That's not acceptable. No,
it's not the part where you know, you try to
destroy a person, you assassinate their character, you get involved

(01:31:56):
in their employment and try to see that they will
never work in their profession again. That's a terrible thing.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
Yeah, it's sad really.

Speaker 1 (01:32:07):
And people need who are having this happen, need to
become more militant, need to make reports to the police
when they're threatened. That's what I'm telling people to do.
Documented if you have evidence, if you can supply evidence,
make reports to the police. I had a nut who

(01:32:29):
was calling me and threatening my life, and I reported
it to my local police officer. He came to the house.
It was very nice and respectful. In fact, when he
was in the military, he had his own UFO sighting
at a base, and he gave me a code that

(01:32:50):
I was to punch into my telephone when this individual
called me again, because he was harassing me a day,
during the day and at night with these threats, and
so I was already the police department was going to
identify him and baker act him for a psychiatric evaluation,

(01:33:17):
and so I was already he called again, and I'm
not really fast about punching in numbers. So I was
looking at the number they gave me and I hesitated,
and the person, the bully, said to me, why are
you hesitating? And I just told the truth. I said, well,

(01:33:38):
I had a police officer over, I've lodged a formal
police complaint against you, and I have a number that
I'm trying to punch in so that the police department
can trace you and what you listen to, what you
say to me, so that they can Baker act you
and he hung up and he never called back. That's

(01:34:01):
what we need to do.

Speaker 2 (01:34:02):
Oh yeah, I know Art had his number of calls
similar to that and harassment. It's just really sad people
have to take that, you know, form of threats and stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:34:18):
Yeah, and there are bullies. There are bullies in running
and organized groups who work together. There are people who
make phone calls like this, and we need to become
more militant and protect ourselves and report this to the authorities.

Speaker 2 (01:34:44):
Are there any cases that you investigated that have shaken
your own beliefs?

Speaker 1 (01:34:50):
Oh? Oh, I had a case. I've had several. Actually,
one was a in Texas. It had been investigated by
the Mutual UFO network. I didn't know that at the
time it had been investigated by paranormal groups. But they

(01:35:14):
would do an investigation and then they just left This
man who was experiencing great difficulty hanging and he had
watched me I was on a television show. I've been
on sixty five of them, and so he contacted me
and wanted to speak with me. So I spoke with him,
and he gave me a tremendous amount of evidence and information.

(01:35:39):
But he had been a commercial airline pilot who had
gone into business. He'd retired from that and he was
running his own little airplane repair business, you know, fancy
little airplanes at any airport that he was renting. He
was living on site with his wife, and one night

(01:36:00):
there were people out on the runway and he was
afraid it was teenagers who were out there drinking and
causing destruction. So he went out and it wasn't teenagers
at all. It was adults who were looking up at
lights in the sky, and he said he'd never seen
anything so intense in his life. There were two of them,

(01:36:22):
and this sort of spurred his interest in investigating more
because he knew nothing about UFOs and ended up wanting
to contact them. He thought erroneously that he was going
to be able to contact them and sit down at

(01:36:43):
a table and have a conversation sort of a meeting
with them, and so he started pointing lasers at them
when they would come in, and they started to come
in more and more frequently. He set up up cameras
all over the airport so that he could the cameras

(01:37:07):
would photograph them, and he captured a lot of good
video and stills and hundreds of pictures that were not good.
I only want to see the good ones. I understand
that the best ones the ones that are clear. And

(01:37:31):
so one night he was talking with his sister on
the phone, got up in the middle of the night.
She was working overseas, and after the telephone conversation, he
just happened to glance out the window in his door
into the hangar, and he saw in that hangar a

(01:37:56):
figure that he described as being bark ground, brown and
non human. And then there were three little white entities
who were dressed in silver uniforms with what he said
looked like roper boots, and they moved as if they

(01:38:18):
were connected, like the gate of a fence swings. That's
how they moved together. And he fled up to his
bedroom and very quickly fell asleep. Well, I suspect that
they went into his abode that night and took him

(01:38:43):
to craft. More and more things began to happen. His
wife left him, she couldn't take it any longer, and
he was there alone. The people who worked for him
became aware of what was going on. One night, he
woke up dressed only in his jockey shorts, barefoot about

(01:39:08):
a mile and a half away from his residence, had
to walk back in that He ended up fashioning handcuffs
for himself. He put boards over his windows, not knowing
that they could pass through solid surfaces. The handcuffs helped

(01:39:30):
a little bit, but then he'd find that he'd wake
up without them on. Finally, he was sleeping with an
automatic weapon under his pillow, and one night he was awake,
one entered his bedroom and he shot it boy and

(01:39:51):
it exploded in a flash of blue light, but it
left some kind of gooey substance on the floor. Now,
this happened years before he contacted me, and he had
not collected that. If he had, if I'd been working
with him at that time, I would have told him

(01:40:12):
to collect it and I would have sent it to
a laboratory that we worked with through muffank. But he didn't,
and eventually he became extraordinarily angry. He was out to
kill them. I don't know if it was that attitude

(01:40:32):
or what, but there was negative involvement. There were negative entities.
One day he was sitting in his office doing some paperwork.
He had didn't have a shirt on, and something came
in and raped down his chest, causing bleeding, and it

(01:40:55):
took a whole month for that to heal up. There
were negative entities coming in to his place. He had
cameras set up. I mean, it was so bad that
I believe that he developed an attachment, because every time

(01:41:17):
he tried to leave and just run away from that
business and just give everything up, he ended up in
the hospital. He finally was able to escape, but eventually
I realized that there was some kind of negative attachment there.

(01:41:39):
I had contacted a qualified individual who could remove attachments,
and we went into prayer to try to help him
from a distance, and he ended up being taken by
ambulance to the hospital and died a couple of days.

Speaker 3 (01:42:00):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:42:01):
Yeah, that really shook me pretty badly.

Speaker 2 (01:42:07):
He didn't experience any reptilians in his encounters, did he?

Speaker 1 (01:42:13):
Well that Bark Brown one might have been a reptilian.

Speaker 2 (01:42:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:42:17):
I mean, as far as my level of knowledge goes,
which is pretty good with all of the experiencers that
I've worked with. When we're talking Bark Brown, it sounds
like and large standing against the wall. It sounds like
a reptilian.

Speaker 2 (01:42:35):
Yeah. They seem to have the worst reputation from my
experiences and interviews and stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):
Yes, yeah, from my experience as well, even though some
of them are kind and nice, the smaller ones. Yeah,
so there are different types of reptilians too.

Speaker 2 (01:42:52):
As your work changed the way you think about humanity's
place in the universe.

Speaker 1 (01:42:58):
Absolutely, I don't think that you can do this without
having a change of focus. That you know to know,
we're not the greatest, we're not the best. We have
not reached the highest point in our development. There are

(01:43:20):
those who are more highly developed than we are. That
there is far more in terms of what we can see,
and this expands beyond nuts and bolts investigations. That's only
the tip of the iceberg. So yeah, there is so

(01:43:41):
much more about our place. We begin to view ourselves
as earthlings instead of little nationalists who belong to a
certain country. This is a worldwide phenomenon and we're just

(01:44:03):
part of this earth. So that's the way I view it.

Speaker 2 (01:44:10):
What would you like listeners, skeptical are believers to take
away from your decades of research.

Speaker 1 (01:44:18):
If they are interested, I would like for them to
read my books, which are unbiased and open minded, and
what my latest is really my own personal experiences the
forbidden knowledge is on my life and personal experiences. You

(01:44:42):
can take it with a grain of salt, do whatever
you want with it. I don't care what you think.
But if they want more information, read my books. They're
written for the general public, but they go in depth
into what these phenomena are all about, and then they

(01:45:04):
have evolved over time according to my depth of knowledge. Also,
watch the congressional hearings if you haven't, watch that new
movie The Age of Disclosure, and educate yourself on what
is occurring. And you know, if you're too frightened you

(01:45:27):
don't want to do that. Don't come out with false
information debunking all of it, because you're not debunking it,
you're providing false narratives and that's simply not ethical.

Speaker 2 (01:45:45):
You have any books, are ongoing, and research projects you're
most excited about right now?

Speaker 1 (01:45:53):
What I'm excited about right now is I I'm in
the process redoing my website, and it's focusing more on
the evidence on the hillcase, including the archival records that
I've posted the original documents. So there's no excuse for
being ignorant about what happened to Betty and Barney and

(01:46:16):
talking about a distant light in the sky and mental
illness and all of the things that people talk about. Also,
I'm working on my archival collection as i'm aging, and
I'm really excited that my work is going to be

(01:46:37):
preserved in an archive and go down in history so
that people in the future will be able to read
it as well. And I'm very slowly writing a book
about my aunt, and whenever I have time. I don't

(01:46:58):
have a lot of time because of I have to
read every single page of every document in all of
my files in order to vet them because I'm not
going to reveal any identities. A lot of my work
has been confidential, or at least I could tell the

(01:47:19):
story but not identify any information about who the individual was,
So I have to go through all of that. They've
been sitting in locked files for many, many years, and
I've been adding to it. That's a lot of.

Speaker 2 (01:47:34):
Work, I'm sure it is, and hours of reading. Yes, absolutely,
Would you like to give your website to our listeners?

Speaker 1 (01:47:43):
Absolutely. My website is Kathleen Dashmartin dot com. You can
see it right there on the screen how my name
is spelled.

Speaker 2 (01:47:56):
And I also put a link to your website and
your book page on my site, So thank you so much.
Listeners can go there also and get to the same location.

Speaker 1 (01:48:10):
It is a pleasure to speak with you today.

Speaker 2 (01:48:12):
I've enjoyed it and you're a fountain of information, and
thank you. You've dealt with a lot of experiences and.

Speaker 1 (01:48:22):
I have over time.

Speaker 2 (01:48:24):
Yes, ma'am, are they anything any last thoughts you'd like
to give our listeners.

Speaker 1 (01:48:34):
I think I've already said, just keep an open mind,
have respect for people who are experiencers. You know, people
are out there all the time now on social media
claiming their experiences without an investigation or anything. Take it.

(01:48:55):
Just don't treat them with disrespect or say I have
the answer for you. Go see a psychiatrist, have your
head examined, and the psychiatrist will give you your diagnosis.
I've read that on social media and it's extraordinarily disrespectful,

(01:49:17):
and I think that we have to treat other humans
with compassion, even if they're so confused or disturbed or
a tension seeking that they're posting their own information or
making it up. Just ignore them.

Speaker 2 (01:49:33):
Yeah, there's too many experiences out there to try to
debunk everything.

Speaker 1 (01:49:40):
Yes, it's just yeah, and always look for references. Look
for in books, books that have a bibliography, that have footnotes,
because that is extraordinarily important. It shows that what you're
reading is credible.

Speaker 2 (01:50:01):
Yes, ma'am, well, I sure appreciate you being on my show,
and I'm honored to have you.

Speaker 1 (01:50:07):
Oh, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:50:08):
A pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:50:10):
For me too.

Speaker 2 (01:50:12):
I will let you get on with your day and
this interview would go on this evening at nine pm Central,
so great, Thank you so much. After I edit my
long pauses between questions, I'm not as good as Art was,
but I'm you know, trying and try to bring this

(01:50:34):
information to listeners and you know, let them make their decisions.

Speaker 1 (01:50:39):
Yes, and practice makes perfect, so you know, the more
you do it, the more comfortable you become.

Speaker 2 (01:50:45):
Yeah, my first interviews were horrifying, and Art was a master.
He was, indeed, I sure miss him.

Speaker 1 (01:50:57):
I think we all do well.

Speaker 2 (01:50:59):
I will let you go. Oh, and once again I
appreciate it, and you have a good rest of your day.

Speaker 1 (01:51:05):
Thank you, you two, Thank you have a good show.

Speaker 8 (01:51:07):
Bye bye bye bye bab.

Speaker 9 (01:52:28):
The ball Boy bing Beople

Speaker 5 (01:53:54):
Po

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