John Wayne Gacy's 1992 interview with Robert Ressler

John Wayne Gacy's 1992 interview with Robert Ressler

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My question would be to you right off the bat,
is why after so many years of silence, never having
a media interview, and people have said that you have
given them interviews in yours.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Well, that's hogwashed. Yeah, that's strictly hogwashed. So we're constantly
told that I'm misquoted, constantly saying that I said this,
and I said that that's not happened.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
So that's pretty well estapished on this. This is the
first time you're speaking publicly about your case.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Right, Yeah. I've always felt that my attorneys were handling
it and they said to keep a little profile and
stay away from it. And in light of all that
has been used against me in the media, they've created
this fantasy monster. I mentioned, it's been going on for
the last twelve years, and I've ever had no comment,
and I had no need to talk to the media

(00:45):
for the simple reason that they were looking for sensationalism,
and they were looking for the monster.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
When you say fantasy monster, image of what are you
referring to by.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
That, Well, the idea that I'm a homosexual thrill killer
and all that garbage, and and they painted this image
of me that like I strolled down the streets and
stalked young boys and slaughtered them. Hell, if you could
see my schedule, my work schedule, you know damn well
that I was never out there.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well you were, you were. Now you were indicted, convicted
and sentenced on thirty three counts of homicide. Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
That's correct. Yeah. I was going to ask you, in
so far as sound goes, if I'm down with my head,
does that hurt your sound quality?

Speaker 1 (01:29):
No, it's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Just don't try to move around too much. You're breaking
the sign. Giv him a cue. I ain't gonna break
in any song. We're going to the lead in as
to as you know, you were at it nineteen seventy eight, Yeah,
you were present.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, okay, that's that's why i'd like to start, and
I'd like.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
To kind of you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
I just like to go through the generalities, maybe talk
about the background of the thing, the the the original case.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Uh bleeping of the language I watched the language.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
John tend to slip into.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Well, I call it as I see it, and some
people can't understand that. All right, So whenever the hell
they're ready, now.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Give me kind of just an overview of the business
that you eventually established the construction work. Is this self
shocked done the construction and maintenance work.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
I started doing painting and then I started doing wallpapering
and decorating. And inside of three years PDM, which is painting,
decorating and maintenance, was doing a million dollars a year.
And that was and I only had four employees.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
And that was the business you were in at the
time of the arrest.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
That's correct. PDM in nineteen seventy four became a corporation
and then I owned PDM Contractors Corporation. I owned PDM Plumbing,
PDM Concrete, and PDM Decorating, and then I branched off
with another partner into Raftco Construction and from there we
were doing strictly drug stores.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
John Now, they did not search the house at that
time or look through the house.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
No, according according afterwards, they're claiming that they came to
the front door of the house and knocked on the door,
and that I hid from them.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Why didn't you let them in at that time when
they were knocking the front.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Door, there was no way I could have heard them.
I was way in the back of the house in
the reck room on the telephone. When they walked finally
walked around the side of the house. I could look
out the picture whendow see them there because I was
on the phone, and they could see me clearly too,
sitting on the couch on the telephone, because I was
talking to my sister in regards to a death in
our family. So I told her that I would call

(03:36):
her back. Got up, went to the door, and he
introduced himself as Cloth and Zac and Piquel, and they
wanted to come in and talk to me about Robert Peaste.
And I had told him that I had not had
any conversation with him, but I said, if you want
to talk to me, then come back there. We just
and they wanted me to come down to the police station. Okay,

(03:57):
well I didn't have time because I was doing work
for the and stuff like that. Went into the police station. Finally,
on the next day after this was after Cozenzak and
Piquel were at the house, they had asked me to
come in and give me an account of my whereabouts.
The thing of it is is that and that same
day they held me there at for nine hours. And

(04:19):
while holding me there for nine hours, they executed a
search warrant. The first search warrant was executed on December thirteenth,
That is the search warrant where they claimed they went
through the house looking for Robert Peace. It was written
up to be looking for Robert Peace, and Robert Peace
wasn't there.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
The police had focused on on you as being the
suspect and the missing boy, and eventually.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Well, they were following me around, yeah, constantly. On December thirteenth,
I had made a statement of the police department and
from that date forward they had me under surveillance. The
only trouble is is that the mickey mouse the way
they were doing it. They had two cars following me
day and night, and they had trouble keeping up with me.

(05:02):
So I used to go out to the car in
the morning and tell them where I was going so
it could case they got lost. Because at the time
I was doing five construction jobs in five parts of
the city, so in in essence, I was all over
the place. But this was like Keystone Tops trying to
follow me around.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Is that one photograph of you in Rozlin.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, missus Rossland car Well, the Secret Service tries to
cover it up and say, well, we don't know how
he got into the picture. Hell, I was in charge
of the reception. I had to stand at the door
and let him know which politicians were allowed in and
which ones weren't. The thing that is, but the Secret
Service wanted to cover up and make it sound like
that I had no business there. I was cleared and

(05:42):
I was with Secret Service at the time and setting
up the parade route and everything, because I used to
set up the parades for the Polish Alliance and then
for three years in a row I had set up
the parades to run. And you know that's a big
feat getting twenty thousand Polish people to go in one
direction at one time. The subdivision where the Summerdale House

(06:05):
is located is built on a clay field, and when
it rained, the rain would come down from both ends
and would flood from one house to the other. The
crawl space would fill up with water. In nineteen seventy six,
I asked the landscaper, I said, what do you do
for that sour odor of clay? And he said, spread
white line, just regular masonry line on the ground. He said,

(06:27):
they'll sweeten up the clay and you won't have that odor.
Sort of like what Charco doesn't filtering things. That's why
the line was spread in the crawl space.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
How much the line was spread down there eventually.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
I think seven or eight hundred pounds of it. The
first search warrant was executed on December thirteenth. However, what
is strange is you had twenty trained officers that came
into that house, supposedly went down in the crawl space,
crawled around. There was no mounds of dirt, there was
no odor, there was no nothing. I never feared anybody

(07:01):
going down the cross space. The clowning was relaxation for me.
I enjoyed entertaining kids, like some people are, you know.
They they unwind in different ways, either either were going
out drinking or that I could put on clown makeup
and I was relaxed and I enjoyed doing it. It
was twice, it was only twice a month that I did.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, this was not using for a lure to draw
kids to you.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
No. We would visit different hospitals and entertain the children there,
and we didn't entertain them with handcuffs or anything like that.
All we used was balloon animals and small toys and
stuff like that. But we also did parades and in
the summertime, like Fourth of July. I used to be
in four parades in one day. I've always told people

(07:46):
when I got into clown makeup, I regressed in the childhood.
It was fun being a clown because you could you
could be yourself or just let yourself go and act
a fool. You could be slapstick and funny and have
a good time. That's why I always enjoyed clowning. Clowning
has taken a bad name because of what they've used

(08:07):
in my case.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
On a historical note, your your Iowa conviction that goes
back to what year was at nineteen sixty eight, sixty eight,
and what was just in a nutshell, you know, without
getting in too deeply, what was the basis of the
Iowa conviction.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
The basis of it was a sodome conviction. It's the
only thing I ever was sentenced to was asadome conviction.
They're claiming that the state representative son, who was on
the other party, he claims that he was sexually abused
by me, and in essence he was blackmailing before Now,
what boiled down to was oral copulation and it was consensual.

(08:47):
I moved to Waterloo, Iowa. I was honored as Man
of the Year because besides working full time, I also
you know, I was a chaplain for the jc's and
also ran the membership campaign, and of course we usednography.
We had the stag shows and that's how we increased
the membership from one hundred and fifty to four four

(09:07):
hundred members. In that JC chapter, we were dealing with
porno films and we had the girl set up in
a room in that so it was, you know, the
thing to do. We were boosting membership from it. So
nobody said a word about it at the time. This
young individual made the charge at me. He was blackmailing me.

(09:28):
He wanted more and more money. He said, look, I
gave you a blowjob, now you got to pay for
this year. I said, go see your father. He wasn't
getting along with his father, but they came down heavy
on me.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
But how about your dad, Jan what you had mentioned
that day, You could never really please him that he
had talked of you.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
And I did not hate I didn't hate my dad either.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
But he you did have a hard upbringing with him,
did you not.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
My dad came from the Old Country, limited education, but
he was a good provider and with strong will and
strong views. He was also an alcoholic, sorry to say.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Was the abusive.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
The strikeout it when he drank, it was almost like
a different person. My dad struck all of his children
all the time.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, when you parolled out, where did you set up
establish your residens.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
I was under the interstate compact that was paroled back
to Illinois.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
And you went to Springfield first, did you not?

Speaker 2 (10:23):
No? No, directly to Chicago because I had a job
working at Bruno's restaurant. That was the requirement of interstate
compact transfer. You had to have a job and a
place to stay. I moved in with my mother in
the kind of minium had. My dad had just passed away.
So I lived with my mother and worked at Brunos
as a chef when I first got out on parole.

(10:46):
For the next two years, I stayed with Bruno's restaurant
and I worked for them. But on the side I
used to work from I used to go in at
four in the morning and get off at two o'clock
in the afternoon, and to me, that was too short
of a day, not enough four. So I started doing
odd jobs, painting, and I found that on the weekends,

(11:08):
the afternoons and the weekends, I was making more money
than I was as a chef, even though I was
getting twelve something an hour. I borrowed six hundred dollars
from my mother and through odd jobs, I left the
chef business. I owned PDM Contractors. PDM was able to
work fifty two weeks out of the year. While most

(11:29):
construction companies shut down for the winter. I never had
time to shut down because I had them on a
waiting list. Our business was growing at that rapid rate.
That Summerdale house was rented to PDM Contractors, and like
the living room was the front office, the dining room
of that house was like a boardroom because it was
an eight by ten foot table with big caption shares,

(11:54):
because we use it as a boardroom for meetings.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
John, the media has called you a homosexual killer. What
is your position on homosexuality.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
I have nothing against it. I'm an outspoken liberal. I
don't care for the labeling. I don't care for any
labeling for.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
That fact, homosexuality.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
No, I would definitely not be homosexual. I have nothing
against what they do, and I don't deny that I've
engaged in sex with males, but that I'm bisexual.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
They're bisexual, right.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
My preferences women, And I've been married enough times and
have children and I see nothing wrong with it. My
dad had conservative values. If you're out after midnight, you're
up to no good. My dad did not believe it.
If you're out after dark and you didn't leave a
phone number, you were up to no good. So I
think that's why I tended to go that way more,

(12:54):
just to be the opposite of him. I was married
twice and just because I didn't get along in the marriages,
marriage just went down the drain. Only because I was
a workaholic, working seven days a week. In that there
was twelve keys out to the house, twelve sets of keys,
twelve sets of keys. Anybody working for PDM contractors had
a set of keys for the house, so you could

(13:15):
come and go when you want it. And of course
my neighbors would keep me informed. They would inform me, God,
while you were out of town, they must have been
partying all night there.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Who is Rossi?

Speaker 2 (13:25):
Michael Rossi was an employee PDM.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
And how old was he at the time? Who was he?

Speaker 2 (13:30):
He was twenty years old in so far as being bisexual,
if I wanted to engage in sex, Rossi and Cram
were willing to go down on me anytime I wanted to,
providing they were given stuff.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Now, when the search warrants were affected in your case,
they they did find an awful lot in the crawl
space of your home, did they not.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Well, yeah, I had to offer to sell him the
house because I thought there was nothing down in the
crawl space. I had never had any qualms about him
going down in the crawl space.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Located on the property and where to.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
My understanding, there was a total of twenty nine bodies
or twenty eight bodies were found on the property, twenty
six twenty seven of them under the house and the
rest one was under the driveway, one was under the garage.
So that makes a total of twenty nine.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Okay, Now, from the standpoint of the arrest, when you
were arrested in this in this matter.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
This it's snowballed.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
It's it's snowball Okay. What was the date of that
arrest do you call him?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
December twenty second, nineteen seventy eight, is when I was arrested.
The rope trick is not the way I've described the
rope trick is it's nothing more than a turniquet, and
I had explained it two of them. I even demonstrated
it to them, but cut off the air. So if
you're going to kill somebody, you just put it on
their neck and twisted three times or four times or

(14:49):
whatever till a person stopped moving and you took it.
Mohire out on the I fifty five bridge.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
And that's where how was he then? And from the
car and place into.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
The river, just holding up the trunk and dumb man. No,
there was no big special deal. Yeah, I couldn't get
down in the crawl space that he's and then I
had a bum back to begin with. You got to
crawl on your belly to move around in the crawl space.
There is no way that I could have done any
of the digging down there. I had enough trouble just
getting down there. Gregory Godsick I, let's see number four.

(15:30):
Gregory Godzig had come to work for me in nineteen
According to this nineteen seventy six, he came to us
through Taft High School through a program. He had worked
for a Republic lumber company, and then he came to
work for us. Now, I'm not the monster image that's
been portrayed in me. And the only way you could

(15:51):
make a monster images is to make it look like
I stopped the streets and picked up altar boys off
the street.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
You know.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
They want to make them look like innocent babes in
the woods, and I was swatting them like flies. My
encounters were always by happen chance. If you pull up
at a stop light and there's somebody standing there waiting for
a bus, if you give them a right and if
do you ask them where they you know, do you
get in anything or you want want drugs or something
like that, That's how it happened, Always happened chance.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Encountered a number of what three or four psychiatrists psychologists
interview I had.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Thirteen of them. There was six for the defense and
seven for the state.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, what was the states? The defense? Psychiatrists, what did
they feel your problem was? What did they come up
with from the standpoint of.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
What the hell is it? God? I can't remember off hand.
Borderline personality, anti social behavior. I don't see how anybody
could be anti social when when you were involved with
the public as much as I was.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
How about the multiple personality issue.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
Oh, the multiple personality and came out of doctor Reefman
and Hartman, these two clowns from the Cook County. There,
they came to see me. The first time, I said,
you want to talk to John Wayne Gacy, the politician,
the clown, the family man, or the businessman. The next

(17:14):
day I see it in the newspaper. Gaysey has four personalities.
I think one of the headlines said I was a
homosexual mass murder. Confess mass murder. There is no confession,
and we offered I offered as much as ten thousand
dollars if you can produce a confession where I confess
to a crime. The time that I was interrogated by
the police officers, there was no stenographer, There was no

(17:36):
tape recording, there was no videotaping, nothing was ever taken down.
Yet everywhere you'll see there's five confessions by John Wayne Gacy. Now,
if I confess to something, then why wasn't it videotape?
Why wasn't it recorded. Why wasn't the stenographer brought in,
had it written up and have me sign it. There
is no confessions in this case. What I did not

(17:57):
know about the insanity defenses that in the state of Illinois,
when you've plead not guilty by reason of insanity, you're
saying that you committed the crime, but that you were
insane at the time. So it's not a question of
innocent or guilty anymore. What they're trying to do is
your whole trial now becomes an insanity trial, where you're

(18:18):
to decide whether a person is saying or insane.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
John, how about Tim McCoy, the last one of the
five that you say you have personal knowledge of.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
M Tim McCoy, Even though he's the last one, he's
the first one.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
He's the first one actually, right, the first of the
thirty three.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Tim McCoy was the first one. And Tim McCoy's name
wasn't put on him until nineteen eighty eight. Prior to that,
he was known as unknown number nine. And he was
buried by me in the crawl space. That's the only
knowledge that I have of it.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
What was the circumstances of that.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
He was killed in the house in self defense?

Speaker 1 (18:55):
And who killed him?

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Then?

Speaker 1 (18:57):
I said him, yeah, and it was an issue was
off the fence? Why was he in the process of
assaulting you.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Or he was coming at me with a knife. I
just took the knife away and twisted in his hand
and that's what killed him.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
So at that point, you yourself did bury him then
in the crawl space.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
Right and if you if you notice he's under concrete.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
Did you bury any of the others in the crawl space?

Speaker 2 (19:21):
No, I had nothing. I had no knowledge of him.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Well, why why is it that yours, your first one,
is there, and then you know twenty some others are
buried down there as well. Did somebody know that you
had done this with the first one, that giving them
an idea more.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Than likely when drinking and getting high with the others.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, admitting it to them, So you feel others then
followed your suit in using this as a burial.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Ground without a doubt. Uh, just to just want to
highlight on John Zick. You know they want they want
to make such an issue over John Zick and his
disappeared I think he was killed for his car personally.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
And in your personal knowledge of this of the Zick case,
then is.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
My personal knowledge of the Zick cases is that I
had come home and Zick and Rossie were at the house.
I had a few drinks, I went to bed. When
I woke up the next morning, Rossie was sleeping on
the couch and Zick was dead on the floor. I
went about my own business and he was gone later on.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
And where did he go?

Speaker 2 (20:25):
Where did he end up? I assumed he ended up
in the cross space.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Did you see him being transported down there?

Speaker 2 (20:30):
No, it wasn't present. Didn't do the didn't do the transporting.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
But when he was dead, he was dead on the floor.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
He was dead on the floor. Yes.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
Did you have with anybody about that?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
No? In other word, I just I just kept my
mouth shut because I didn't want to get involved. My
idea was to just stay out of it.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Let let's step back to your childhood. What was your
state of health as a.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Child At the age of ten, I was told I
had a large, bottlenecked heart, okay, and so I had
a tendency to pass out a lot.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
How about childhood illnesses? Did you have any? I mean accidents,
rather any any sort of or accidents.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
When I went to the other vocational school. When I
first went to vocational school, I got hit with a
park swing in the side of the head cause the master.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Right at what age was that, approximately fourteen? I believe
got hit with a swing. Were you unconscious?

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, I was taking no medical clinic. That was at
the time. That's when I started seeing that I had epilepsy.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Did you have any episodes of you know, seizures?

Speaker 2 (21:35):
Seizures were according to the doctor, they claimed that when
I have an seizure, I had eight hundred times my
own strength, or eight hundred pounds of strength.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
Had you ever been sexually abused by anybody?

Speaker 2 (21:50):
At the age of nine, there was a contractor building
building a house next door, and he used to pick
me up and take me for rides and always wanted
to show me wrestling holes with always pinning my head
in between his legs. But at the time I did
not look at it as sexual. He was showing me
wrestling holes where my head was always constantly pinned between

(22:10):
his legs or under his legs. I was nineteen when
I ran away, and that was in eighty not eighty
sixty one. I went to Las Vegas for three months,
took off, took my car and left. I worked for
Palm Mortuary, being the night man, picking up bodies at

(22:32):
the hospitals and stuff for them. I worked as a
nightmare only I did have nothing to do with the bodies.
All this talk that I slept with the dead ones
or had sex with dead bodies, that there is no
truth to any of that.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
He didn't live in mortuary.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
I lived in the mortuary, yes, but not in the
embalming room. I mean, they make it sound like, you know,
I slept in the crips with him, and I never
climbed into a coffin or anything like that. That is
so damn ridiculous. You know, it's the same thing. The
contention is that I slept all night with Robert. If
you want to say it's something in the same house
with a dead body, okay, find out I'll buy that.
But in the same room. No. And besides, they dead

(23:08):
won't bother you. It's the living you gotta worry about.
I felt things were going to work out because I
knew that I didn't do the killing, and I thought
it would come out in the trial. But am arante
with this insanity defense. What I and again you can
call it my ignorance of the law. And it's, like
I explained in a letter to Chief Justice William Clark,
the evidence based it is on the theory that the

(23:32):
more sensational the case is, the more crazier. It sounds
the insanity defense would work. And I still think it
was stupid. I think that they did a disservice to me,
and they did a disservice to the victims. And you
know what people don't understand is I feel I was
wrongfully convicted for thirty three murders and it was only
because of sensationalism and ego the displayings police that is

(23:54):
sloppy investigation. This is I mean, it may not be
the correct way of wording it, but the thing of
it is is that they had other suspects, and they
had tunnel vision, and to say, let's it's Casey's house,
it's easier to put everything on gaycy.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Hey, your paintings have improved over the years. I think
we've seen some.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
I think I've learned from each one of them. I
guess the same reason why I relate to Michelangelo because
he was a workaholic and Leonardo da Vinci. You know,
people always ask me who my favorite artists are and why,
And I did not know that Michael Angel was homosexual.
It doesn't make no difference to me. He was a workaholic,
he was a sculptor, he was he was a painter

(24:34):
and did a lot of other things. Da Vinci was
an inventor in that. And of course in my life,
I've done painting, decorating, wallpapering, I've done mural work, you
name it. As you know. I'm a bug about record keeping.
All of my business records confirmed where I was, who
I was with, what hotel I stayed at, what meals

(24:57):
I ate, everything was in the files. All of those
files on December twenty ninth of nineteen seventy eight were
confiscated by the Displayings Police Department, and those files there
alone could have proven that I wasn't in Illinois when
sixteen of these murders. When they finally set the dates
as to when these murders occurred.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
You did say that you're never painting yourself as an
innocent babe in the woods.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
That were going over the same thing.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
I'm not going to go in basically no. But I
mean the point is, if you feel that you're not
covering up your part of the crimes, but at the
same time you open up the thought that others were involved,
would you be willing to cooperate with law enforcement people
today to avail say the materials that you have amassed
and to more or less pursue if in fact there

(25:44):
are others that are on the streets that have been
involved in these murders, would you be willing to cooperate
and to assist to pursue that to the ends of
bringing others to justice? Would you be willing to do that?

Speaker 2 (25:55):
I got no comms about that. But what I don't
understand is why wasn't it done to begin with? Bob.
I'll say you if it is. They want you to
believe that I and I alone committed these murders and
I had nothing to do with the murders of anyone.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
If anybody was involved in how many people are we
talking about beside yourself?

Speaker 2 (26:16):
We believe there was four people involved, and that would
be Michael Rossy, David Cram, Philip Pasky. Here we've got
a Philip Psky who had a newsletter going out of
the Cook County jail, and here he is involved with
a guy named John Norman. And John Norman was running

(26:39):
boys for hire. They were making snuff films with young boys.
To me, they were pimping them off, they were selling them.
There was a crossover when we checked into John Norman's
background that he goes all the way back to the
early early seventies involved in he ran the Norman Foundation.

(26:59):
He ran run Epic International and the Odyssey Foundation out
of Dallas, Texas. And these were organizations where wealthy men
could hire young boys for sexual for sexual weekends, male prostitutes.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Have you ever met Norman? You have any contact with Norman?

Speaker 2 (27:18):
I have yet to see a current picture of him,
and therefore I had to say no. I you know,
Phil Pasky may have been with him at one time
or another, because see again, I came home from out
a town of times and Phil Pasky would be at
the house drinking beer or something like that. David Cram
is the one that brought Phil Pasky. And because his

(27:41):
uh Cram when he wanted he didn't want to do nothing,
he got a hold of this guy and said, well,
this guy can get your uh somebody for sex. I
have a lot of things that I've forgotten that I
can't remember. For instance, I can go back to my
childhood and stuff and I still remember that. But yet
you can I can go into the seventies and there
are a lot of things I can't remember, the same
thing with the victims. I've looked at all of I

(28:03):
don't know if you noticed it. We've got pictures of
every one of the victims here, and believe it or not,
for the last twelve years, I've studied these photos of
the victims, and there is no we have a shot
of all of the victims together here, and when you
look over the photos, I have no recollection of any
of them. Never met them. And we've gone over this

(28:26):
more than once. They're just names and faces, and when
you look at them. The thing of it is we
took it a step further. We went into their backgrounds.
I wanted to know where they were at, what schools
they attended, who they hung out with, and what kind
of activities they were into. And that's what we dug
up on each one of the victims. But still there

(28:48):
is no association. None of them never worked for me,
none of them. They never weren't to any places that
I ever hung around, because I didn't hang around that
many place. Unless you're involved in politics, or if you
were involved in clowning, then I might have ran into you.
But there's no way I could have run into any
of them. They've got all that jury that doesn't belong
to the victims. They've got the two clowns suits that

(29:11):
don't belong to the victim. Just like I consider myself
the thirty fourth victim, I consider the families victims as well,
because they did not get justice from the shoddy investigation
all the way down through. As I told you, when
the FBI first came in to check on me, you

(29:32):
said that you were kept out of the case back
in seventy eight, and that was only because of egos.
They did not want a professional coming in and doing
an investigation, so they did their sloppy investigation and let
us slide that way. You see, everybody was so excited
about the large, massive case, and everybody was looking with
their egos as to how they could close this thing up.

(29:52):
And you know, the only one that they really hurt.
You've had the victims family bent all their hostility towards me,
and they think the monster that killed their son or
took out their son and stuff like that, when in fact,
most of them don't even have the remains of their
own sons. And you know, that's another thing everybody misses
from this is that the victims' families are not aware

(30:17):
that that in a lot of the cases, they don't
even have the remains of their own their own sons,
because the doctor Stein never turned over the whole body,
and they took the they took the heads off of
each one of the victims. So when you turn over
the remains to a love loved one's family, they don't
have the whole body. What do you actually feel that

(30:41):
my investigations, that my case has been thoroughly investigated?

Speaker 1 (30:45):
I think John, in a case like this, and I
find this in many, many major cases, that the things
are at the time of the case are done rather
hastily because of the fact that you know there's there's
pressure on you.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
But that's a political answer, I know. I don't I
don't want to political answer from me. I want I
want a basic answer. Do you actually think that the
investigation in my case has been done right?

Speaker 1 (31:07):
I believe in your case that that there needs to
be There should have been more more focus on others,
as there should have been others that checked out a
little more thoroughly. That's that's the belief I've developed over
these years. Yeah, I just think that we're kind of
wrapping it up here. We I think we accomplished something
that certainly we put something down on tape, but that

(31:27):
has not been said. My feeling is a career law
enforcement officer, is that if John Wayne Gacy is guilty,
then he should be punished. If John Wayne Gacy has
others involved, then they should be brought in, they should
be punished. Basically, I believe in in total investigation, in
total justice, and that's that's really what I've been looking
for all