Tommy Sells Execution Watch on KPFT with Ray Hill

Tommy Sells Execution Watch on KPFT with Ray Hill

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Tommy Sells as a prisoner in Texas. If the state
has its way, he'll be dead within the hour. This
is Execution Watch Huntsville, Texas, death penalty capital of the
Western World, where prison staff is preparing to put Tommy
Sells to death by injecting him with a deliberate drug
overdose during the next hour. Kpft's execution Watch were broadcast

(00:38):
live coverage of the killing in Texas, the state responsible
for more than a third of all US executions. Execution
Watch host Ray Hill, legal analyst Jim Skelton, with criminal
defense attorneys Susan Ashley, Larry Douglas, Mike Gillespie, and Jack Lee.
Huntsville reporter outside the death house Gloria Rubek Houston vision
reporter Jennifer Simmons. The night's featured guests is the condemned

(01:02):
demand himself, Tommy Sells, who recorded an interview with execution
Watch last month from death row. The execution Watch for
Tommy Cells begins.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Good even, Miss ray Hill. It is the third day
of April two and fourteen, and tonight they're going to
kill Tommy Sales. I interviewed Tommy Sales. I understand we're
having technical difficulties with the radio version of the interview.
We however, we're going to have a longer version of

(01:39):
the interview on the televised version of this. So I'm
going to take a few minutes here since we're going
to have to fill a long problem without an interview,
because the interview was to be twenty minutes on this
show and longer on the television show. So I trust
that somebody's working on the technology out there and we

(02:00):
may have the interview, but at present we do not.
The interview with Tommy Sales will be played on Houston
Media Source at a time announced. Now. This is how
you stay in touch with what we are doing, so
that you will know when it is put up. You
join our Facebook page. Execution Watch has a Facebook page.

(02:22):
You can find us by going to your Facebook index
asking for execution Watch and when you ask for that,
they will plug you in and bring you up to
Hoyle on that and you can watch the show, including
the interview with Tommy Sales. Tommy is in Huntsville, Texas.

(02:45):
He is in the death Watch Sale and he is
awaiting the witnesses to cross the road. Board up. Can
I get you to put Richard on their Richard, can
you hear me?

Speaker 3 (03:03):
I can hear you.

Speaker 4 (03:03):
Right.

Speaker 5 (03:04):
The witnesses have just crossed the road.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
The witnesses you mean the media witnesses. Were there any
other witnesses?

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (03:11):
There were, okay, so Tommy has somebody there at his
request to witness his execution.

Speaker 5 (03:20):
Yes, sir, there were two groups of people that were
led separately across the road.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Okay. So to our audience, so that you know what's
going on. When the witnesses crossed the road from the
old administration building into the Walls unit, that means the
process has begun. The witnesses do not go in until
Tommy is strapped on the gurney and the needles are
in his arms. It's a matter of moments now before

(03:46):
they start asking him for his last words, and then
whenever he gets through with that, they will apply the chemicals.
There's some discussion about that. Richard. I want to thank
you for calling in our reporter in Huntsville tonight, and Richard,
I would appreciate your calling me if they come out, Yes, sir,

(04:09):
thank you, sir, thank you. All right. Do we have
a reporter from another vigil tonight?

Speaker 6 (04:15):
No?

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Actually, because I think that there is an event going
on out at TSU tonight about police brutality, and Dave,
who is Dave Atwood, who is normally a reporter from
the visual is at TSU and he is participating in

(04:38):
that event. Jim, what do you know about Tommy Salton?
What happened in this case?

Speaker 7 (04:43):
First off, this is one of those cases where it's
really really difficult to separate fact from fiction because the
story he kind of tells is that he's been wandering
around since he's a young kid thirteen or fourteen, coming
for food and killing people is what he basically said.
But let me know for in this particular case, he
ended up in Del Rio, Texas, and he broke into

(05:05):
a home of a Harris family in Del Rio, and
then the home was a thirteen year old girl by
the name of Calin and he sexually assaulted her. Then
when he finished sexually assaulting her, he cut his throat
and stabbed or something like sixteen times. And there's a
ten year old girl spending the night with her at
the home that night, and he did not sexually assault her,

(05:27):
but he's got her throat over so she survived. And
when she survived, when she was able to.

Speaker 8 (05:33):
Kind of help.

Speaker 7 (05:33):
She got a composite drawing of him. That's what led
to his arrest. Of course, he confessed to that, as
well as a multiple number of other murders and crime.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
He claimed seventy. How many was he actually charged with.

Speaker 7 (05:44):
He's got a couple of cases pinning in different states,
but really the one major one that's been in Texas,
and there's been an other assault cases we're going to discuss.
This isn't the only as far as murders concerned, or
other cases he got convicted of, and we're going to
talk about some of his prior conviction.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
He spent a lot of time in prison.

Speaker 8 (06:02):
No, not at all.

Speaker 7 (06:03):
In fact, the longest stretch ever got was a ten
year sentence that didn't spend much time on that one.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
Was that in Texas. No, it was in West Virginia,
West Virginia, Okay, And he was he was traveling all
around quite a bit. He was raised primarily in Missouri,
born in Oakland, California, and apparently had a big problems
at home. He stayed with the and her grandmother in Missouri.
Then he pretty well was dumped when he was a
young child, and after that he just wandered around all.

Speaker 8 (06:30):
Over the country.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
The media calls him a drifter. Can you catterize what? What?
What that would conjure in your mind?

Speaker 8 (06:37):
Sure? What he according to what he see?

Speaker 7 (06:39):
It's hard to tell because a lot of it comes
just from him and it's not verified. And apparently his kind.
Remember remember Theodore Bundy. His trick on getting people to
trust him. He'd act like he was crippled. He put
a cast on his arm and be struggling and get
a woman to help him, and then when the woman
help him, he end up adopting, adopting, abducting her.

Speaker 8 (06:59):
And what he did.

Speaker 7 (07:00):
He was one of those guys that you see flagging
signs of intersections, will work for food in hungry and
apparently claimed to live under bridges, and that's how he
lured many women to help him. Primarily all of his
victims were either women or young women, and so he
apparently prayed upon according to him and from some of
his priors. We'll discuss that later with some of the

(07:22):
other speakers. And it all usually is some type of
young woman and usually someone trying to help him because they.

Speaker 8 (07:28):
Felt sorry for him.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
So that was the image we have from looking over
his criminal history, but I'm surprised that he hadn't done
a lot of time.

Speaker 7 (07:39):
He didn't do hardly anytime. He's I think, two different
stretches and as long as time he was on a
particular case, Susan's going to talk about where he raped
a woman and ended up spending some time there, but
he didn't stay in prison.

Speaker 8 (07:51):
That linking the length of time.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Susan, you got the story for.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
Us, Okay.

Speaker 6 (07:57):
Essentially, what happens in this case is he is panhandling
under an underpass and he has a sign, I'll work
for food. The essential story is that a young woman
feels sorry for him and she basically goes to give
him some food.

Speaker 7 (08:14):
Susan, wouldn't she was. I think she's kind of an
army child. She didn't know a lot about America.

Speaker 8 (08:19):
Rise figures that's what she said.

Speaker 6 (08:21):
She said she had lived in a different military basis
all over the place. So he had a sign saying
I'll work for food. But apparently she asked him if
he was hungry. He said yes. She asked him if
he had any family. He pulled out a picture of
a woman with some kids and said that he and
his wife and kids were all homeless and hungry. So

(08:44):
she apparently was babysitting. She was staying at someone else's residence,
babysitting their cat, and there was some junk food that
that person had bought I guess for her to have,
and she didn't want it, so she went with him.
She took him with They went to a convenience store.
She bought him a newspaper there. She thought he could

(09:04):
look for help in the want ads. And they went
over to this place that she was staying at. When
they went there, he asked her if she was there alone,
and she said yes, and then she went and packed
up some food. She asked him to stay outside. She
packed up the food, and then she went to get

(09:25):
him a coke, and then apparently he was just inside
the residents. And then after that, she's trying to get
rid of them, and she asked him if there's anything
else he wanted, and he told her he wanted that
his wife needed some underwear. So she went into I guess,
the bedroom where her suitcase was to give him some underwear.

(09:48):
He followed her and then he ended up attacking her,
and he attacked her.

Speaker 7 (09:53):
He raped her, but he also brought a knife from
the kitchen rite season.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah, it was her night.

Speaker 8 (10:00):
What was on kitchen knife?

Speaker 6 (10:01):
Yeah, And then they ended up in the bathroom. She
fought him, was fighting with him, and I guess there
was a ceramic duck in the bathroom and she ended
up hitting him over the head with the ceramic duck.
That sort of broke things up for a while where
she was able to at least try to get away
from him, and she tried to get away and rean

(10:23):
to the door, but then she wasn't able to get
away and he caught her and then basically the attack
kind of went on. He you know, tied her hands
and feet up, and she, you know, ended up telling
him that she was pregnant and her husband would be
home soon and that she wouldn't tell anyone what happened.

(10:45):
And he apparently put a blanket over her and made
some half hearted attempt to smother her, and he ended
up leaving. And what she ended up I guess basically
what she said is she ended up outside that she
was beaten up, bloody, naked in on the front porch.

Speaker 7 (11:03):
We left flunk thing out though during the struggle in
the bathroom, she took the knife away from him, because
that's how they caught him. Yeah, because she stabbed him
a number of times too, and he ends up in
the hospital. And that's one of the reasons they called
him because she's apparently a pretty spunky gal because.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
She's the one that called him a whim.

Speaker 8 (11:19):
Well, no, what she did.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
She beat him.

Speaker 7 (11:21):
She said she hit him with that ductle. Nothing left
was nothing left but the beak. That's what she had
in her hand, and somehow she got a hold of
the knife. She began to stab him where the wib
park came in and she put the He put the
blanket over her head to smother. She said it was
a whimpy attempt to smother. I mean this, you're talking
about a spunky gall. And so his case was tried,

(11:43):
or did he He was tried, He pleaded this he no, No,
he went to trial on it. And what happened after
they go to trial on it. Apparently she made some
contradictory statements because he was claiming consensual sex. She's claiming
that he just met her and that she wanted to.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
Have she was going to put it, that's.

Speaker 7 (12:00):
Right, And so he claims concentral sex and apparently some
herst story, stories or contradictory, and the prosecutor got concerned.
He reduced the rape charges to what's it called, susan
some they.

Speaker 6 (12:13):
Called it malicious wounding.

Speaker 7 (12:16):
Reduced it to that and gave him a ten year sentence.
And how long did he serve in that ten year susan?

Speaker 8 (12:20):
It's only about what was it? A couple of years?

Speaker 6 (12:22):
A couple of years? And then he parolled out he
did as far as her in the attack where she
fought back, not with the duck, but she also got
the knife. He got eighteen stab wounds.

Speaker 8 (12:34):
She's go do your job on him too.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah. Absolutely, But this in a case where you've got
a real committed witness like that, what kind of represents asien?
You have to take this scort to trial?

Speaker 8 (12:54):
I have no idea why we go to trial.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
I mean, if you had this case as a defense lawyer,
a lot.

Speaker 7 (12:59):
Of time you go to trial because the offer is
so big that you think you can beat it for
the jury. And in this particular case, I don't knew
if I don't know if the defense lawyers and you
ahead of time, she's going to make contradictory statements.

Speaker 8 (13:10):
I have no idea.

Speaker 7 (13:12):
But Remember that was back during the time and we
didn't have all the rape shield laws and a lot
of protection for females who are testified. And apparently did
a pretty good number on her on cross examination because
they she got a little bit confused.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
So he probably had some quality representation.

Speaker 7 (13:28):
Sounds like it because they had to reduce the charges.

Speaker 8 (13:32):
And then there may be.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Some But it was a horrible case.

Speaker 8 (13:35):
Well, it was one of those cases where both of
them got stabbed.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Pretty spicy case, and the cases in Delrio were not
pretty cases.

Speaker 8 (13:43):
They're not pretty at all.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah, and you have a surviving witness to testify against him.
Right now, that would have been a trial, right you
don't plead to get on death row.

Speaker 7 (13:53):
That you can plead guilty, but the jury has to
assess sentencing. But he didn't plead guilty. Well, there was
never a q. He readily admitted the case Delrio, along
with other occasions he claimed he did.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Mike, what's cooking.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
His tales of misfortune. I have never seen a man
voluntarily confessed to so many crimes. What we have is
a man who was born and obviously born with a
very troubled background. We have some hideous crimes that he
was convicted of some hideous crimes that he went to
jail for. But we have a laundry list of murders

(14:33):
that he claimed he committed that has not been able
to be verified. This man has claimed on two different occasions,
first that he's committed twelve murders and then to a
doctor who's studying serial killers, made it seventy man was
only and a man for twenty years. He's made his
first killing at sixteen, and then his last killing was
in ninety nine when he was thirty five. So in

(14:55):
twenty years he claimed he kills seventy people. It's a
lot of people to kill. The amazing part is that
as he went around the country trying to show police
agencies the people he killed in the bodies, some of
the people he claimed were dead were still alive. Some
of the people that he claimed dead, they couldn't find
any bodies. They got to the point that at certain

(15:17):
points he claimed the bodies were hitting in a well,
the police wouldn't even go look in the world for
the bodies until they could prove there was some truth
to what he's saying.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
So so his credibility kind of lapsed. Now now where
did they take him.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
From They took him from prison, from death row, from
death row, and then you got this other aspect. I
mean my understanding that in prison it's not good to
be killing kids, that even people in prison do not
like people who killed children. The thing is that he was.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
Of any audience of people that's really enthusiastic about people
that killed children.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
In the Kennedy's Catholic cath In one of these cases,
he beat a pregnant woman with a baseball bat till
the baby popped out, and then he beat the newborn
baby to death. There might be a scenario in which
he wanted to get some brag and rice in prison.
Maybe he had When I see so many babies being killed,

(16:17):
it makes me think that maybe he's trying to build
a reputation in the prison community that he's just not
a baby killer, that he kills people too.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Okay, we have a telephone call. Hello, Hello, Hello, you're
on the air.

Speaker 4 (16:33):
Oh Ray, I'm Jennifer Simmons and Houston.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Okay are you individual?

Speaker 4 (16:38):
I am reporting from the vigil here for at the
corner of Maine and Ben Street in front of the
Art Museum.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Oh get next to the big Methodist Church.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
Yeah. Yeah, we have a good crowd here, about ten
people and it's sort of risty and human rainy, and
we're very disappointed Intreme Sport tonight.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Well, we appreciate your concern. The Supreme Court was this
scenario is beginning to get all to patterned. I'm afraid.

Speaker 9 (17:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
We just believe there should be no secrecy in an
execution protocol.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Well, I you know, we're going to get into that
a little later in the showman. Have the lawyers to
that federally.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
I don't want to jump ahead of you all, but
we think transparency is important in this process.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Okay, would you give our regard to the visuals and
for you folks listening in the just just one other thing.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
Our organization is the Coalition will Abolish the Death Penalty
of Courts, and we are meeting on April twenty fourth
at the Montrose Library from six o'clock until eight and
we just want as many people to come out as
possible who are sick and tired of of what's happening
in Texas.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
Okay, and let me repeat that, because we're getting a
little garbl in the sound. This is a Texas Coalition
to abolish the death penalty.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yes, y.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
And the website is TEA d t see ADP dot
org dot org. And the next meeting is the twenty
fourth of this month. What day of the week is that?

Speaker 4 (18:10):
Gosh, don't make me guess that. Right now, four from
six to eight at the Montrose Public Library.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
The Mantras Branch of the Public Library System. Exactly, Thank you, ma'am.
Give our regards to the vigilance.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
Okay, thank you very much, right.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
Bie, And getting back, because this.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
Is certain things about these stories that makes me suspicious.
First of all, it seems like they have too many
times he had said things they could not find any
evidence of it. But more than that, there seems to
be too many cases a pretty young woman trying to
help out a beggar with food and help, and she
takes them home and something happens. The story is consistent,

(18:52):
and it's consistent that there's always a pretty young woman
who picks them off.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
She's always pretty, she's always young. And yeah, it sounds
to me like fantasies.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
We have to understand that.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
And then sometime, however, there is some evidence of reality
in at least a couple of cases.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Yes, the cases that he did are so horrible that
makes everything believable. But he becomes a problem. When you
have a man who has been documented and tried and
convicted of horrible, horrible crimes because women and children, he
becomes a celebrity to talk At what point of time
does he become the center of attention where he can
tell tales and everybody wants to listen to him. You

(19:29):
got gods, You got people in the prison systems who
will listen to this.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
I think, Mike, what we want to do here, let's
hear from Tommy himself, and then let's come back and
cut that particularly salt. Those of you with headphones are lucky.
You can put it on. You can listen to this interview.
Would you play the interview now? Please? What do you
think they need to know? And that includes about everything?
I mean, my god, I had Lurch. I'mber lerg Yeah,

(19:56):
I did that interview with Lurch and he said, you
ain't gonna run this because I got bad things about
the prison, John got bad things that about excuse and
watching me ran every word of it.

Speaker 9 (20:06):
Well, first of all, right, I want I want to
make sure men you straight. Yeah, uh, you ain't gonna
do this until after they kill me.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Right, No, I'm going to do it while they're killing you.

Speaker 9 (20:17):
Why they're killing Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
I will, I will.

Speaker 9 (20:19):
That's cool, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Okay, Tommy, Tommy, I don't want to broadcast this show.

Speaker 9 (20:26):
I understand that.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
I hope you get to stay, and I hope something
happens in your case just like vanishes. Yes, and I
don't ever have to do it. I'm only going to
use it if I do a show and I'm gonna
broadcast your voice while you're literally strapped the table, You're
gonna be more than strap to the table at by

(20:48):
time your interview stars. Okay. In the meantime, if anybody
wants to get their hand on this thing, they're gonna
have to kill me first, because I hain't up in it.
If I get a subpoena, I'm gonna say, put my
ass in jail. I ain't afraid to go to jail,
been there, have friends there.

Speaker 9 (21:07):
I do well in jail, I understand.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
So I'm not afraid of them. They ain't gonna get
this out of me. They ain't gonna get it out
of Purdle, they ain't gonna get it out of Elizabeth.

Speaker 9 (21:16):
Right, now my first question to you. Yeah, if I've
heard you say over and over, this is about the
record that y'all go on on the execution watch sure.
How many times you know yourself that record be wrong?

Speaker 2 (21:31):
How many times have I pointed that out? How many
times I've asked us lawyers question? But you you don't.
Why ain't this part of the interview. I haven't started
the interview yet, Oh, because I thought, Okay, okay, now
this is the deal. First place, I need your permission
to broadcast this under the arrangements that it will not

(21:55):
be broadcast unless you are on the guarnee and the
process has begun. Yes, okay, I need your permission to
show the video after that. Yes, okay, that's cool. All
of that done. Uh, the interview begins. Yes, okay, Now
before you get into what you were doing, let me
say I live being.

Speaker 9 (22:14):
On a road uh over thirteen years?

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Over thirteen years? Yes, and you came out of Del Rio, Texas,
Del Rio, Texas, and you live in Del Rio, Texas
where you're from?

Speaker 9 (22:25):
No, I'm from uh all over? Okay, I'm a gypsy child.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
You're a gypsy child. You know we've interviewed gypsy child
down here before? Uh, how well were you in now
del Riou?

Speaker 9 (22:36):
I met a woman down there and decided to get married.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Okay, so you went to Del Rio, Texas and uh
uh uh you lived on the road everywhere? Yes, tell
me about who you were living on a road going
every more? Who? Who? Who was that guy?

Speaker 9 (22:55):
Uh? Just a burnout drug addict trying to make his way.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Dipsy looking for a.

Speaker 9 (23:03):
Place to pitch tent didn't have the ten didn't matter
as the tent didn't didn't give that mn about the tent,
just I was out there in the wind.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Okay. See that that that tells these folks who you
were that?

Speaker 4 (23:17):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (23:18):
How you been on death for a thirteen years?

Speaker 9 (23:20):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (23:20):
What is that done to you?

Speaker 9 (23:22):
Oh? It's It's opened my eyes to a whole different
life that I never knew about. Uh. You've heard a
lot of people say that if they could do it different,
they would. I know I would, because the hate left
me when I when I came here. The rage left

(23:44):
me when I came here and and seen all the
the the stuff that was going on. I wasn't masking
it no more. I wasn't masking the pain that I
was feeling.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Tell me about that pain.

Speaker 9 (23:58):
Oh, it just drowning out the pain of uh, abusive
childhood and.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Had abusive childhood, all real, real abuse isolated.

Speaker 9 (24:13):
That's that's part of the record that w y abandon.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yes, yes, and how well when did you strike out
on your own?

Speaker 9 (24:22):
Oh twelve?

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Were you running away or just got left on the road?

Speaker 9 (24:30):
Just got left out there?

Speaker 2 (24:31):
You got left out.

Speaker 9 (24:32):
I never had to run away.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
They hadn't had had to defend for yourself.

Speaker 9 (24:35):
Yeah, yeah, And I just kept defending for myself. And
here I am on death row.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
And along the way you doused the pain with drugs
in our hall very much? Did that work?

Speaker 9 (24:55):
No, not even close, not even close. It just mass
mass the pain that I was feeling. Can cause more rage.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
How older man are you now?

Speaker 9 (25:10):
Forty nine? The same age I thought you was gonna
say you I was gonna say, come on now.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Rage seventy three.

Speaker 9 (25:21):
You've been doing the prison show.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
Reverse your age and that's my number.

Speaker 9 (25:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
No, I did prisoner for thirty years and I thought
I did a good job.

Speaker 9 (25:33):
Uh. That's the only reason I agreed to the interview.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Uh. Okay, now you want to talk about excuse from
watching prison show?

Speaker 9 (25:42):
Well, the excuse watch. Well, you have said many times
I do this generally, what what's on the record, what
we go by, and you know how many times that
record's been wrong. But when they're killing that person that
y'all's talking about, that's all you refer to.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Is there's all the lawyers refer to. You'll see me
step in every once in a while and challenge it.

Speaker 9 (26:11):
It don't happen often.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
But it does. And the reason it does is because
I think they're stuck out obvious that the record. I
do know, Patrono, the record. If you read the newspapers
about Willingham, and you read the court trial about Willingham, Yes,
he was one guilty son of a god, a horrible thing.

(26:33):
All you gotta do is say there wasn't an arson
and he's totally innocent. Right, And the governor of this
state has gone to the wall a dozen times so
that that doesn't come out. It's then the newspapers this week.

Speaker 9 (26:49):
Or I read it about where the prosecuting attorney made
a deal with a confidential informant, yeah, or the jail
house knicks it wasn't no common.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, he bond and paid for with more life. That's right,
and and and and and you know how often that happens.

Speaker 9 (27:10):
And and that don't come out in the record. No,
that's not and that's not about the record that they're
talking about on your show Execution.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
We have done shows. I've done shows where all of
the lawyers and I agreed that they killed an innocent
man that night.

Speaker 9 (27:26):
You remember when when Chester got a that dude was
thrown off nine Kinds of Sunday. He was mentally challenged
and retarded, and they killed a manly challenged and retarded person.
I live by that dude. I know him. Can't read,
can't write, matter of fact, David even couldn't hardly make

(27:50):
out his letter.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
And you know, we just had Winston Cochran on the show.
Last show we do had the defensive lawyer in the
Final Appeals of Bilsoyd Winston Cochran on first time I
had Winston cochranan I wasn't even doing execution much I
do in the prison shop right and Winston came in.
He was falling to pieces. He said, my client could

(28:12):
not even make complete sentences. He spoken kind of words, Sally,
and they just killed him. And I don't know how
that happened. So sometimes the lawyers can't stop the determination
of the state to murder.

Speaker 9 (28:30):
That I live with, cause I see that every day.
I don't see I I see what the public don't see.
I live with these fellas. They're good people and and
and put 'em in the right circumstances. They're no more
in danger than than a flee on on on a dog.
It's it's just they're they're they're not dangerous. They're good

(28:50):
people and and and they're being killed right and left
because the court saying that there's no hope for him,
and and they're just it's wrong. You know. I consider
myself upholster boy for the death sentence. I have no
quarrels about being executed. They they're they're doing me a favor.

(29:13):
I'm I'm ready to get the hell out of here.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Sound like work? What time to go? Y?

Speaker 9 (29:20):
It's it's yeah, it's time to go. It's it's like
they put me on level on death watch. Yeah, and
then then write somebody up for sending me something to
drink in the day room because I can't make store.
And they write somebody up knowing they they got me
around all these level warn people. That's not gonna let
me suffer. But but they gonna write 'em up for

(29:43):
sending me something to drink. That's a trick bag. They're
putting people in back here.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Is this something happened recently?

Speaker 9 (29:49):
It it?

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Ha?

Speaker 9 (29:50):
Yeah, this past week?

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Well, I mean, you're on death Watch. I can't put
you in there.

Speaker 9 (29:56):
Lord, you wouldn't think so, would you. But but they
come on, right, you're not new at this game, you
know if.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
No, no, no, no, no, no, I remember, I mean,
I've had conversations with Wayne Scott, who moved Death Row
over here after garooling. Right now, you weren't around on him.

Speaker 9 (30:14):
No, No, I came two thousand.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
But those legends don't die on the row soon.

Speaker 9 (30:19):
No, I followed that.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Billy Hughes is alive and well on death Row. Yes,
because of the he and I and Wayne Scott as
Death Row sergeant got the work program in place many
many years ago, okay, and they took it after Garouley escaped.
They ended it, yes, because they thought he was doing

(30:43):
some plotting in Planet. Well, if Garouley been doing a
lot of plottin and Planet, and why is he the
only one made it? Defend right?

Speaker 9 (30:51):
Why have they not had a some kind of program
for us in thirteen years? Why have I didn't have
done nothing but city?

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Well, you understand that the Guards Union has joined you
and check breaking that up. I know you all are
talking about that back there.

Speaker 9 (31:06):
Here's what we know that the only thing they know
about is punishment. They they don't pull you aside and
say you know that that wasn't cool what you did?
Won't won't you just cut it out before we have
to step up. They just want to put their foot
on your neck. And that's all we know for sure.
That's that's that's what we know. And and they gather

(31:26):
their foot pretty hard on my neck right now.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Oversemble to drink, yeah, top of coffee, something to drink.

Speaker 9 (31:37):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's so so the other guy's
supposed to get level.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
Now, if I'll be working death throw, I'd bring you
a cup of coffee.

Speaker 9 (31:49):
It's they micro managing us just sideways. It's it's it's
just and and and of course you know they see
no wrong in it. They they want to figure out
more ways to to micro managers. And and sometimes you
have to just let fellas be fellas. You know, I mean,

(32:11):
I'm I'm on a level for having a sheet up.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Okay, now you w a cell busaif you can put
up a sheet.

Speaker 9 (32:19):
Well apparently not, cause I did and I went to
level for it, or I got level for it. They
they took my two special visits that that she was
on her way. They took that. Then I ain't had
no commissary since since December, and and uh you know,

(32:39):
took my radio, my uh fan, I mean, my hot pot,
and and the nightlight.

Speaker 10 (32:45):
And because of putting up a towel a sheet s yes, well,
I'm glad you're talking about that because I think that
I'm already just wants you to hear that and hear
what's going on, because if they nobody says it, you know,
and the free world's idea is that you know, other
than the days you step out to play golf, you

(33:06):
go to the swimming pool, if.

Speaker 9 (33:09):
If somebody would just pull the records on the right
up set, they do issue punishment for their the the
the punishment don't match the the the the right up
and I just got my step two back on. I
filed a step one step two and they said due
process was was was done, and we followed all the guidelines.

(33:32):
They don't know about due process. Come on now, due process.
They followed their guidelines.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well if is it every garden or are there worse
gardens than others?

Speaker 9 (33:49):
Well you know the answer to that, I'm I.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Mean no, no, But by audience, don't have a hint.

Speaker 9 (33:54):
Uh there there there's some that that you know, treat
you like like decent folks, and and and they get
along with people back there. But then there's some that
just come in there with a chip on their shoulder,
and and and just wants to make a major case
out of some petty ass board and and and if

(34:14):
somebody could just come and say save me sp that
that's all it would take.

Speaker 11 (34:20):
Yeah, the these people ain't so the the the people
on row ain't so hard headed that if you try
to tell them something, they're not gonna listen to you.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
You follow one of them, Oh you're understanding. I understand
everything you had. More importantly, the audience that folks that
are looking over my shoulder at your face can hear
that you are sincere about what you're talking about. And
that's the important thing is that this is your opportunity
to tell somebody what do you think they need to
know about where you are and what life is like there,
and and about this whole process.

Speaker 9 (34:55):
Well, I wanna get back to the record. Okay, you
know they say I'm a serial killer. Yeah, I'm I'm
sure that, ain't you know?

Speaker 8 (35:07):
Shocking?

Speaker 2 (35:07):
No, No, I've I've run across that phrase and reading
about you yet.

Speaker 9 (35:10):
Yes, yes, what where's the proof on this ray?

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 9 (35:14):
I know I have has Have you run across that?

Speaker 2 (35:17):
No, I haven't run across any any tengible evidence that
you were a serial killer.

Speaker 9 (35:21):
But but they convicted me saying that I was a
serial killer. They don't even have the proof. I had
a lawyer in San Antonio tell me if I took
that guilty plea there, that they would h have a
better opportunity to give me a life sentence on this case.
If if I done had a life sentence. That's advice

(35:44):
how I took for taking that case in San Antonio.
And and I d I didn't do it, didn't You.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Don't have any knowledge of the case in San Antonio.

Speaker 9 (35:51):
I couldn't even tell 'em it was by uh a
weapon or something? Huh what? D No? No, where they
keep the cattle the stockyard?

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Stockyard.

Speaker 9 (36:06):
I couldn't even tell him it was by a stark
a stockyard.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Well you know who you sound like, Henry Lee Lucas.
Henry Lee Licas confessed the crimes all over this country.
And finally the Attorney general said, wait a minute, we're
fixing to execute a man for a crime in Texas
that happened twenty minutes after he is convicted of a
crime that happened in Florida. How did you do that?
And they asked, Henryly handed it. He said, well, you've

(36:32):
seen a star trek where you get into thing and
you tell her.

Speaker 9 (36:37):
Beat me up, Scotty and.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Beat me up Scottie. And so then the governor said, no,
I'm gonna stay this execution, but tell me about the process.
They're so anxious to solve their crimes that they'll hang
it on anybody that.

Speaker 9 (36:56):
Comes along, anybody that's willing to.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Be the light you and still to get the right
kind of confession.

Speaker 9 (37:03):
Yes, there's no question about that. In my mind. I
know for a fact they catered to my needs and
my wants, and.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
You got the attention this this sounds like a flashback
to Henry Lee. I mean, I got Henryly confessed to
all those crimes because they got to travel.

Speaker 9 (37:20):
Yes, they took they they fed him well they yes,
the stakes and and and and I mean.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
And it was simply a matter of like today's comfort
for the end of your life.

Speaker 9 (37:32):
Yes, but you're not sending in quite that light because
because you know you're in trouble. But but but but would.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
You look in that camera and describe.

Speaker 9 (37:43):
That, uh, describe what what.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
We're just talking about about about I'm isolated. I've been
abandoned so much. I'm all alone in this world, and
all of a sudden, I'm getting all this attention. All
I got to do is be the patsy I had
to be.

Speaker 9 (38:03):
They wanted me to be something that I didn't quite
understand at the time. I was only uh thirty five
and and and and coming off of drugs and alcohol
and and they put me in a a cell with
nothing and then they say, you know, you start talking
to us and we'll work with you. It was no

(38:23):
smoke in jail, but they took me out three times
a day to smoke. They they they provided me with
with uh tobacco in the cell so so I could
uh dip and and and uh uh ah have that
next team fixed fix you know, and and and uh

(38:44):
the jailers would come around and and and give me
a little little treats on the side. And then for
for the eight months that I was in in uh
Valverde County jail, they they treated me like like a
king in there, and and and.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
You had never been treated that way before.

Speaker 9 (39:00):
No, no, especially in no jail. I'm I mean, but
all this time, the Texas Rangers, you know, the good
old boys, coming over and making sure I got what
I need and and and and uh that nobody's pressuring
me over in the jail, and and and you know,
they're getting me every day and taking me to to

(39:21):
the restaurants there and and and having us food ordered
and and and they took me to Arkansas and and
out of hole and and Las Vegas and and uh
Oklahoma were wrecked their plane in Oklahoma. Uh, I mean

(39:42):
it was an adventure and and and and they got
confessions out of me. They say, what what you'd see
in the house. I'm like, well, there there's some watermelon
uh triaming stuff right right? How how many how many
the houses got some watermelon ceramics or or watermelon plate?

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Sorry, hey, Tommy, you are doing exactly what I want
this show to do.

Speaker 9 (40:13):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
You're telling the people in this audience the reality of
your life.

Speaker 9 (40:20):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
And you're not alone.

Speaker 9 (40:22):
No, No, I let them sugarcoat a bunch of stuff. Okay, stroll.
Stephanie strows Is is a girl that was going to California,
I mean from from New York to California. And she
signed to Hitchhick and and they knew that I had

(40:43):
been out the last place that they had seen me.
And and they said, you know who Steffaney strow Is.
I said, huh. And and then they told me the
story about she started out to California and went was
working her way to californ I said, well, she a hippie.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
As if she would be anything else.

Speaker 9 (41:05):
Yeah, And and cause sh she's his hiking across the country.
And and she got some bongold drums with her, and
and and and and and and that's how they said
that I committed.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Knew enough about the case, yes.

Speaker 9 (41:20):
Yes, And and it was one case after the other case.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Tommy, hold hold up, hold up, running out of time.

Speaker 9 (41:26):
I understand the case in Illinois. They said that I
killed the Dardine family, right, did the the Texas Ranger
dude came in. He said, Tommy, you know anything about that?
And I said, did the dude have his cut off
and his draw jaws dropped? I was just spending smart ass. Yeah,

(41:46):
sure enough, dude had his cut off and and that
was evidence or all? That was evidence enough.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Tommy's else. I don't wanna do this show, but I
guarantee you if I do this show, my audience would
be better educated than in the show I've done.

Speaker 9 (42:05):
You thinks, so yep, I appreciate it right here.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
I'm gonna be here talk to you a few minutes.
I'm just ending the interview.

Speaker 9 (42:12):
You tell, uh, Margaret, I said, I love her.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
I'll tell everybody, Margaret especially, Yes, you hang in there, son.
I hope that it stay comes. I hope that madness
incident and that it worked for Henry Lee.

Speaker 9 (42:27):
I hold it. This ain't no work for Henry Lee.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
No, it worked for Henry No, no, no, no, Henry Lee.
Was it was realized how they had used him to
solve dozens of cases. Yes, and Uh. The Attorney General
at the time was Gym. Maddocks went to George Bush
and said, it's on you cause I ain't standing behind

(42:52):
this execution. This guy is uh not guilty of all
of these crimes, and George Bush commuter the sentence to life.

Speaker 9 (43:02):
I understand that, and I'm not trying to do that.
I'm trying to tell the people.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
But yeah, yeah, God, this ain't gonna broadcast until they
got your damn gurney.

Speaker 9 (43:09):
I understand that. I'm trying to tell what they will
do to get that confession. Yeah, that's what I'm trying.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
I think I think my audience needed to understand that.

Speaker 9 (43:18):
And they they will lie, cheat, and still to get
that confession. The good old boys, yep.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
They divide the world up the good guys and bad guys,
and we're all the bad guys.

Speaker 9 (43:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Well, when you get back on the road, give will
give the boys my love. I will tell 'em those
cards and letters make a difference in my thinking.

Speaker 9 (43:37):
You like my poem?

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yep?

Speaker 9 (43:39):
Will you read it?

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Yep?

Speaker 9 (43:40):
When you do my show, Yep, got your poem, I'll
make it happen. Okay, that's pretty good one, wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
That's a good one. Yep?

Speaker 9 (43:48):
Did you read it? I did read alright?

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Right, yep?

Speaker 9 (43:52):
Getting here he does get money. Longly, you know that I.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Came to this mother sentence to a hundred and sixty Yes,
you know you been here. Yeah, worked my way out
with a pencil after four years, four months, seventeen days.
I wish you as well. Course it too late for that.
Pour four years, four month you got thirteen. Then.

Speaker 9 (44:14):
Now you know, I have had good lawyers. They've kept
me here alive this long. Yeah, but they're not trying
to hear the the issues of my case.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yep. Uh.

Speaker 9 (44:25):
My my lawyer was the same one as Travinal that
made the Travinal case. Yeah, no, no, no, no, I
mean the state havebust lawyer was my same state Haby
it's as Travinals. And they say, yeah, he can get
some action, but I cannot get that action. But we
had the same state have as lawyer.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
Oh tell your lawyer with l Elizabeth loved to talk
to him.

Speaker 9 (44:46):
Hilary's share.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
Hilary shares. You got that, Lizabeth.

Speaker 9 (44:51):
Matter of fact, she Hillary shared It's on tax she
sheet sheet. She said, uh about you in particular, you're
the worst of the evil. Okay, doing the interviews for she,
I know.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
I know she doesn't understand that I will go to
jail before anyone gets their handle.

Speaker 9 (45:07):
On No, no, she she yeah, she did understand that,
she knew that that talking to you was was not
a problem. Okay, she gave her a blessing. Okay, in aroundabout.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Boy, Okay, well listen, I love you all right, good luck,
give my love to the boys.

Speaker 9 (45:25):
I will.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Well, this is Ray hillback. And that was an interview
with Tommy Sails. Tommy Seales is dead. At about ten
minutes ago, about six thirty, we got words that the
witnesses had come out. That was a little bit different time.
The last time the witnesses crossed the road, they were
in there for fifty two minutes. This time they were

(45:54):
in there for less than thirty minutes. So whatever new
drugs they've got seemed to be more efficient than the
drugs that were using on this day last week. Mike
Lesbie step back from the toll the microphone, having been
pleased that I ask Tommy the question that he wanted
to raise. You will be able to see that interview

(46:17):
and its extended form when the videotape is compiled for
Houston Media source Larry Douglas, what's your take on this?

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Well, Jim and I were talking about the tragedy of
of the of of of Tommy Lynz Seals his whole life,
and the quote came up, I think he died the
day that he was born. That's a quote from a
boxing promoter regarding the tragic life and the sudden death

(46:49):
of former heavyweight boxing champion Charles Sonny listonff Listen had
had a tragic life, but it does not in any
way compare to the life of Tommy Lynn Seals. He
never had a chance. Tommy Lynn and he had a
twin sister, Tammy Jean Sales, were born in an Alameda County, California.

(47:16):
Tom they were born, the mother and father allowed them
to allow the father, Seals to be to have the
children named after him, but his actual father was not Sales,
but it actually guy named Joe Levin's. And this was
the scheme because Sales was an insurance salesman and he

(47:38):
used the children he named them in order to get
up on at an insurance scheme.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Oh he was. He was going to beat the insurance
company out of some money.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Apparently so well. When they were about eighteen months old,
the mother moved the children, and there were several children
by this time because there were two older brothers and
the twins were born, and then three younger brothers. Months old,
the mother moved the family to the Saint Louis area,
and shortly thereafter they both got meningitis. The sister, Tammy died,

(48:11):
Tommy survived, but Tommy's survival was to a cruel life
and back. By the time he's two years old, his
mother sent him to live with an ant from the
time he was two years old till about the time
he was five years old. We don't know exactly what
happened during that time, but during the time framed the
ant asked to adopt Tommy, and the mother just exploded

(48:33):
about that. She says, she went and took took Tommy
back and told the ant the ant couldn't even have
any contact with him anymore. And Tommy was a difficult child.
He started to skip school at the age of seven.
He was smoking by the age of eight, using pot

(48:53):
by the age of nine or ten years old, and
as a very young boy, a young man, an old
a grown man took took a liking to him and
started lavishing him with gifts and so forth. But it
turned out that young that that grown man was a
pedophile and uh and by the time Tommy got to

(49:14):
be twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old, he was he was
pretty much on on his own. Now. One thing that
is that his father did do for him that the
actual biological father. He remembers his his father, Joe Levin's
telling him that dead men tell no tales, and so

(49:35):
Tommy claims that some of the things that he did
was to make sure that there were no witnesses uh
to his actions. One of the other things that Tommy did,
which was really shocking to a lot of people, is
that he's reported to have crawled in the bed naked
with his grandmother when he was thirteen years old, and

(49:56):
he is alleged to have tried to rape his own mother.
And at that point he did undergo some kind of
mental examination. But by the time he got to be
about fourteen fifteen years old, Tommy was pretty much on
his own. Like I said, he didn't run away because
nobody cared about him. So he went out on his own.
And he reports that he was hot trains, steal and

(50:20):
do whatever he had to do.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
To survive, become that drifter that they talk about.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
That's when he reports to have become the drifter.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Larry when you're folks like I know, folks like Tommy.
I know those folks that have never really had a
life that you and I would recognize as a life.
There's been nobody all of their lives. They have been
no purpose, they have no friends, they have not had

(50:53):
any pleasurable moments. It's been a struggle from meal to meal,
from dry place to sleep to dry place to sleep,
and those dry places frequently include the bugs of the
night and the heat and the cold.

Speaker 4 (51:08):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
How would Tommy have ever developed a feeling that his
life had any value?

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Well, ray, despite all of those things that he was
deprived of. It's my understanding we discussed this earlier that
the greatest human need is the need to feel like
he's somebody. So, even even if you are, if you
don't have a whole lot, even if you're struggling for
meal to meal, place to place, if there's someone who
values you, because a lot of time families don't have

(51:39):
a lot, but if they have each other, that's that's
about all they need. Tommy apparently seems to have never
had that feeling, even even being with a grown man
who was molesting the boys, including Tommy. That may have

(52:01):
made him feel like he was somebody because man did
lavish gifts and so for an attention on him. He
never had any any attention, no real carings.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
So the only attention that he got in his life
was attention leading to exploitation.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Very negative attention. Absolutely, but even negative attention is better
than no attention at all. Uh to it to a
human being, because because we do need that to survive.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Thank you, Larry. I want to I want to bring
Jack into the conversation because Jack's can talk about chemistry
for a while. Uh, Jim, this show is actually holding
in together pretty good.

Speaker 7 (52:35):
Yeah, you know one other thing, Ray that you brought up,
and of course you met him.

Speaker 8 (52:39):
I didn't.

Speaker 7 (52:41):
Usually a kid has a bad background. A lot of
it depends on what type of intellect they god. If
they're a little bit bran, they can kind of their
brain kind of tells their stomach because these feelings are dangerous.
But if a little guy is a little slow and
not very bright, they're lost. If they go through the
background like this. I've seen a lot of people that
have had tragic backgrounds that over have overcome it. That

(53:01):
they've overcome it because they're pretty bright people and usually
somebody intervenes, and we have that idea called disassociation when
people don't bond when they're infants, and might verywell be
that he didn't bond with his mother.

Speaker 8 (53:11):
There's a lot not to.

Speaker 2 (53:12):
Here speaking of disassociation. There's been a lot of discussion
of the chemistry.

Speaker 12 (53:17):
Jack sure, the main issue of regarding the chemistry and
the drugs that are used in lethal injection is whether
the condemned suffers or not, And as a subset of that,
in order to figure that out, it makes sense that
you need to know which which drugs are used and
where they come from. A Texas judge ordered the state

(53:38):
prison officials to disclose to inmates where they got their
latest batch of lethal lethal injection drugs. The idea is
that the inmate would need to know both the drug
being used and its manufacturer. Not surprisingly, pharmaceuticals really don't.
These drug manufacturers don't want to be publicized for making
the lethal injection drugs. If the manufacturers are no own

(54:00):
manufacturers may may have protests, there may be other legal
legal hassles, and there's the possibility of greater scrutiny uh that.
Notwithstanding manufacturing, several manufacturers have simply refused to sell drugs
for executions based upon moral grounds. As a result, the
state has now turned to smaller compounding pharmacies to come

(54:22):
up with the drugs. Compounding pharmacies will take the drugs
and they will manufacture it in small, very small batches themselves.
These pharmaceuticals are less regulated, which brings up the possibility
that the drugs may not perform the way they're supposed to.
And ultimately that's that's played into the cell's execution, largely
because if I remember correctly, the Attorney General at first said,

(54:48):
all right, state prison officials, here's our opinion. We believe
you do need to disclose the disclose the manufacturers. And
then the AG's office came back and said, no, you
really don't. And then a judge said, yes you do.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
Wait a minute, and it's going back. And I may
be completely off base here, but if you spend the
taxpayers money to buy truck, somewhere there is a public
accessible record of where you bought the truck and how
much you paid for it. Sure isn't there a publicly
accessible record where they're bought the drugs and how much

(55:24):
they paid for it.

Speaker 12 (55:25):
I don't believe there is, and and this is ultimately
the legal issue. The defense, the the inmates want to
know who the manufacturer is. And it makes good sense
if you want, if you want to know whether these uh,
these drugs that are being injected into into are medically
are you know, medically competent or you know their medical

(55:48):
grade or not. Now, it occurred to me that there
may be some that a lot some people would would think, well,
what difference does it make. They're going to be executed anyways, Well,
what happens if the execution is not successful or it's
unsuccessful in such a way that it does in fact
violate the Constitution in terms of causing cruel and unusual punishment.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
We just went through an execution in Missouri where the
guy lay there suffering, struggling for breath for an inordinately
long time. Witness is in the case. And the last
time we did an execution in Texas, they were witnesses
were in there an inordinately long time. This is relatively quick.

(56:30):
What is the drug we're talking about.

Speaker 12 (56:32):
It's pheno barbiton. Let me it's pheno barbital.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Pheno barbaradon. Why wouldn't they just give them heroin.

Speaker 12 (56:41):
Well, not being a prison official, I don't.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Know, okay, but I mean I think heroin will kill
you in overdose. I mean, no question about it.

Speaker 8 (56:50):
You ought to have.

Speaker 6 (56:51):
It locked up in a very safe place.

Speaker 8 (56:54):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
You would have to have your heroin steal.

Speaker 7 (56:59):
It, wardens sell it, and then they probably use it.
Let the wardens sell it.

Speaker 8 (57:03):
They sell all the type of drugs they sing all
the time.

Speaker 7 (57:07):
Let them know they could sell the heroin under the table,
and they could probably do that.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
They go down the hall, that's right, and shake down
a couple of people and get enough hair into the
next execution. That's right, Jesus, They couldn't control.

Speaker 6 (57:21):
They'd have to have it locked under lock and key.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
Okay, this is beginning to make sense to actually having
known a couple of heroin that existed, beginning to make
sense to me.

Speaker 7 (57:34):
In fact, you mentioned the fact if you use it
for drugs, some may kill just to get the last
shot for the state to pay for it.

Speaker 8 (57:41):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
I hold that bay or brand.

Speaker 12 (57:46):
Nothing but the best.

Speaker 7 (57:47):
And they wouldn't answer your question earlier. What the DC
did on that last match. Memories back and they got
it from Conrad. They lied to the pharmaceutical commany so
they were going to use it to treat somebody in
the hospital, and then when the pharmacy could see the
problem the medical fashions farmers are part of. It is
designed to save people's lives. A real ethical problem if
your job is to save folks and all of a

(58:08):
sudden you're selling stuff to kill them, the real ethical
problem with the medical profession.

Speaker 12 (58:12):
The American Medical Association has stated that whether or not
physicians assist in executions or not is a personal choice,
and that the AMA is not going to get involved.
I think one of the issues that when I was
thinking about this issue of why it matters, what what

(58:33):
drugs we use, what for the lethal injection, and what
and why that's important, why it matters, I was reminded
of the reign of terror in France under Robespierre, where
they executed so many people in the with the guillotine
that the blade became so dull that very few people

(58:54):
it didn't work, very few people made you know, were
actually executed on the first chop several times. They several people,
you know, towards the end, a lot of people had
to be you know, had to go through several several
chops before they were actually executed.

Speaker 8 (59:10):
It's terrible.

Speaker 12 (59:11):
I mean you look at Louis the sixteenth. He was
so large that the blade simply could not fit through
his neck on the first chop, and he went through
several times before his uh before he was actually executed.
And this is really the the crux of the issue
behind the why the drug man, why the inmates want

(59:33):
the drug manufacturer's names disclosed that they need they need
this information to figure out if it violates the constitutional
right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Well, yes, we owe a debt of gratitude to Tommy
Sales for giving us an opportunity to talk about things
on this show that we don't normally get around to
talking to. We certainly are exposed to a person whose
personality is very different from any that most of you
will encounter. But I want to assure you, having lived

(01:00:09):
in prison, that there are Tommy sALS down there. And
there is a problem. If you've been nobody all of
your life and of no consequence to anybody, and nobody's
ever cared about you, and you wind up in Texas
prison and you're given responsibilities by the authorities, so that

(01:00:33):
while in prison you become somebody. Richard, it is very
difficult to it's very difficult to get out of that.
Richard is back on line. Could you put him on
the air, Richard.

Speaker 5 (01:00:47):
Yes, sir.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
The witnesses came out. What about the middle of the hour.

Speaker 5 (01:00:52):
The first group of witnesses came out at six point
thirty two, the lawyers about five minutes later, and the
state witnesses about five minutes after that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Okay, So obviously the execution was over travel distance from
death row to the front gate at six point thirty. Yes,
so this went a lot quicker than the one last week. Yes, sir,
and I appreciate your by the way, Richard Owes Harley

(01:01:26):
Davidson the transportation ability to get the Huntsville and cover
this far as Thank you Richard for doing that. Not
a problem, sir. Enjoy your ride home later. Bye. And
so now he's got to straddle that hardy. I hope
he carried his rain suit.

Speaker 9 (01:01:43):
Well.

Speaker 6 (01:01:43):
Ray, I would say this, if you know, for people
who may feel like they're nobody and nothing to anybody,
I would point this out that you can make your
own karma if you do good things for people and
care about people and help people out, then you're going
to be somebody to them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Susan. The trouble with sending messages to people that need
to receive those messages, we don't have a very effective
mechanism for doing That's true. Somebody should have told Tommy
Sales that when he was about thirteen years old and
giving him few guidelines how to build that karma. The
karma he built was destined. I don't. I think I

(01:02:24):
agree with Larry. This guy died the day he was born,
and I will It'll be a long time before I
get Tommy Sales. You're listening to execution Watch on radio
station KPFT in Houston. If you want to see this show,
those of us in the studio, as well as an
extended interview with Tommy Sales, stay tuned at execution watch

(01:02:49):
the Facebook page and we will figure out somebody to
put a notice of it also on the web page,
and ultimately both this audio of this show and the
video will be posted on executionwatch dot org. My name
is Ray Hill. I want to thank Jim Skelton, Susan Ashley,

(01:03:12):
Mike Gillespie and Jack Lee for their fine work on
this research and getting ready for this case. I want
to think, of course, Elizabeth Stein, producer, without whom we
couldn't work a lot more of the Wizardry as we
developed that. The credit goes to Otis Maclay, who is
handling cameras tonight and we appreciate, and of course Mark

(01:03:36):
pertl plays a role in all that. I want to
thank KPFT for giving us the opportunity of providing us
with our board operator for tonight's show. I also want
to thank Victoria Panetti for playing did I.

Speaker 8 (01:03:49):
Leave Larry out?

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
Oh my god, I'm gott to leave the voice of
God himself Larry, and I'm here. I just voted his
wisdom he brought to the table tonight that so listen
quote I never forget these shows. H I hope you
will view them and listen to them, and remember we
owe it as citizens in a state that ritually killed

(01:04:17):
people in our name.